April 24, 2020

"Kaine brought good and solid credentials. But the difference between a Cory [Booker] and Tim Kaine could’ve closed the enthusiasm gap."

"Looking back on it, it’s fair for people to ask if we should’ve factored enthusiasm more into it."

Said Minyon Moore, a political activist who worked on the VP selection process with the Hillary Clinton campaign, quoted in "Black Leaders Want a Black Woman as Biden’s Running Mate. But Who?/Among black leaders close to Joe Biden, a commitment to selecting a woman is not enough. They have publicly and privately pushed him to select a black woman to fuel black voter enthusiasm" (NYT). The "enthusiasm" she's talking about is the enthusiasm of black voters.

From the Wikipedia article on Minyon Moore:
Minyon Moore graduated from Boston University's Film School with a certificate in digital film-making... Together with Donna Brazile, Leah Daughtry, Tina Flournoy and Yolanda Caraway, Moore is a member of the informal group the "Colored Girls," described by political columnist Matt Bai as "several African-American women who had reached the highest echelons of Democratic politics." Governor Howard Dean, former chair of the DNC, who had one of his dinners with the Colored Girls on the night of the 2014 midterm elections, said their perspective was important. "They’re very rare Washington insiders who understand the rest of the country," Mr. Dean said. "That’s part of what makes them so valuable. These women have not lost their connections with where they came from." In 2018, Moore, Brazile, Daughtry, and Caraway published For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Politics, a joint memoir and history of their time in politics.
The title of that memoir strongly suggests that their choice of that particular racial term was influenced by the 1970s play, "For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow Is Enuf." The playwright, Ntozake Shange, has said that she used that word "so her grandmother would be able to understand it."

Back to the question of picking a running mate. It's hard to believe, in retrospect, that Hillary picked Tim Kaine. It's hard even to remember him. But — for whatever reason — she resisted the pressure to choose an African-American running mate. Perhaps she wanted to go all-out stressing her potential status as the first woman President. What's the good of complicating the diversity messaging with the idea of the first black Vice President when we're succeeding the first black President?

In that light, you can see why Joe Biden is more susceptible to the pressure to pick a black person for his running mate. He's already committed to picking a woman, but there have been women vice presidential candidates twice before, and it's already a step down from last time to have the woman in the secondary position. It's not a very exciting Diversity! celebration. It's just another instance of an old white man — a boring party stalwart — trying to add what he lacks. The only way for Biden to do anything different from what McCain did — and what Mondale did 30 years ago — is to make that woman he's promised to pick a black woman.

So the interesting question is whether Kamala Harris or Stacey Abrams is the better pick. Now that I've posed the question, I think the answer is obvious, but I'll do a poll before I reveal my answer. And I do realize that there's some talk about Michelle Obama. I'm not seeing that as a real possibility, and I want to keep this poll simple:

Assuming Joe Biden decides he must pick a black woman as his running mate, which choice is the smarter choice for him?
 
pollcode.com free polls

204 comments:

1 – 200 of 204   Newer›   Newest»
Wince said...

That Biden desperately painted himself into this corner is enough reason to see why Osama Bin Laden preferred Joe to Obama.

Kevin said...

So black peoples now demand a black person be on the ticket to expect black votes.

And not just this year.

This is where the party falls apart. Why wouldn’t brown, gay, vegan, women, poly, and other groups follow suit?

Two people cannot contain all the identities required to satisfy identity politics.

Unknown said...

Congresswoman Terry Sewell of Alabama, says The National Review

Black woman. From the South. Endorsed Biden early. Mentored by Michelle Obama at Princeton. 10 years in Congress. Former Wall St. lawyer.

Kevin said...

It’s like we listed the two least attractive VP candidates Biden could pick and Biden is forced to choose one.

And Joe thinks he can handle China...

cyrus83 said...

If he goes that route, neither of those two is going to be all that helpful, but Abrams is likely to be less unhelpful given she came closer to winning her election to executive office than Harris did.

Biden's VP pick is almost certain to be president at some point if he wins given the apparent cognitive issues already on display, so this is a particularly bad situation to be making a pick for diversity's sake. Biden's VP pick is going to get a much harder look at their qualification for the top job than would normally be the case given his health issues.

tim maguire said...

The "between the lines" portions of this are far more interesting than the lines themselves. Stacey Abrams is better than Kamala Harris because Kamala Harris has already been rejected by the black community. But Michelle Obama is better than Stacey Abrams.

Funny that picking a woman isn't enough, Now it has to be a black woman. The first black woman MUST come before the first white woman. But why? Traditionally, Democrats and Republicans alike have done fuckall for the black community because, why should they? They guarantee their votes to the Democrats. By taking their votes out of play, no politician, Democrat or Republican, has the slightest incentive to give two shits about their concerns.

So does Joe Biden care about this "pressure"? And if so, why? If so, then "why" is because Trump is making inroads in the black community and the Democrats can't afford to lose more than a token number of black votes and still win anything.

So if Biden caves to the pressure, that may be the signal that the black community has finally joined the political system. And Trump, by doing right by the black community (despite having very little political incentive to do so), might finally have made black issues matter to everyone.

tim maguire said...

The only way for Biden to do anything different from what McCain did — and what Mondale did 30 years ago — is to win.

FIFY

David Begley said...

Both are poor candidates. And especially a very poor POTUS.

J. Farmer said...

My father and I were just talking about this yesterday. He had said he was going to pick a woman, and I was guessing that it would likely be a female candidate. He will also want someone from the more activist wing of the party, and though Warren fits the bill, people just don't seem to like her. Plus I don't think that's what they have in mind with "minority." Harvard Law notwithstanding.

Abrams vs Harris is an interesting choice. Harris is half-Black/half-Tamil and was born in Oakland to academic parents. I wasn't surprised that our first black president was light-skinned. Unlike Obama, Harris tries to do the self-righteous Angry Black Woman routine and seems phony as hell. In that debate with Biden where she got indignant about busing, not only did she sound borderline hysteric, but her position didn't even mkae sense. "I was that girl!" as if busing was some horrible thing she was subjected to, yet her position was pro-busing.

Abrams, on the other hand, is an opportunity to pick a real sista. One of six kids raised in Gulfport, Abrams has the more class African-American story. She attended the famous HBCU Spelman and later UT Austin and Yale Law. It seemed pretty clear after Abram's showing in Georgia that she was being groomed as the next Democratic star, and when she was picked to deliver the SOTU rebuttal, it seemed obvious national poltics was in her future. That said, I don't know thing about Abrams' political positions, other than the standard DNC boilerplate.

Given the fact that Biden may be a vegetable come inauguration day, his VP pick is going to be very important. If he chooses either Abrams or Harris, my one in a billion chance of voting for him will go to one in a trillion.

ExplainMeMore said...

Thanks to AOC and the squad people identify Democratic women of color with far left radicalism and thus cannot be expected to appeal to the swing voters that Biden needs to win.

Jersey Fled said...

I think either Harris or Abrams would be a great pick.

(hehehe ...)

Really, can you see either as President? Big issue with Joe at the top of the ticket.

Bob Boyd said...

"What am I? Chopped livah?" - Oprah Winfrey

donald said...

I’m good with either one. I mean they are both so unlikeable. Abrams adds the fact that she is so grotesquely fat and ugly that it has to be her, right. Mebbe she can twerk at one of the debates.

Jim said...

I’m pulling for the gap toothed Georgian.

Howard said...

Camel toe Harris it's not quote "black enough" unquote to qualify. I'm very surprised that you people voted for her over the real black lady.

TheThinMan said...

I meant to vote for Harris but hit the Abrams button by mistake. Maybe I’m not the only one; those buttons are right on top of each other. Of course, I’d rather have Biden choose a wacko halfwit like Abrams to make him more unelectable. But the question was what would be better for his campaign. Notice no one cares about who could handle the job and the potential job of the presidency. If you thought like that you wouldn’t be for Biden in the first place.

Leland said...

I vote for Karen Whitsett, because she has shown that the divide in our country can be bridged.

GatorNavy said...

Kamala is more photogenic than Ms Abrams and looks are all that counts for Democrats

Wince said...

What about Esther Rolle from Good Times?

She was always able to keep JJ in check.

Howard said...

I thought you people got turned on by fat and ugly given how much you lap up Donald's jiz. I think I figured out how you people can swallow so much of it dot-dot-dot you chase it with a cup of bleach and then go into a UVC tanning salon

Fernandinande said...

Black Leaders Want a Black Woman

Black woman!! They're Americans!

I just wanted to laugh at Black leaders. So to speak.

wendybar said...

That's RACIST. They should be picked because of ability, not skin color. I hate and am so sick of this shit. The Democrats are the ones who keep dividing, and then they blame it on everyone else. Grow the hell up.

rehajm said...

The problem is anyone trying to balance the ticket has to offset Biden's political brand: old white male with cognitive problems. You try to offset it and instead you highlight it with a flashing neon sign...

...and all this race balance ignores prejudices of black voters. Is there's a big group of black males ready to step up and vote for the ticket because there's a progressive black woman in the VP slot?

...but when your opponent is making a mistake you shouldn't interrupt.

gilbar said...

who would go vote for Biden/Harris,that wouldn't go vote for Biden?
who would go vote for Biden/Abrams,that wouldn't go vote for Biden?
who wouldn't go vote for Biden/Harris,that would go vote for Biden?
who wouldn't go vote for Biden/Abrams,that would go vote for Biden?

I can see Harris turning off Black people, more than i can see Abrams turning off Whites
i mean, of the Whites that would vote for Biden
Both seem like horrific choices, for a horrific choice for President

Who, exactly did the democrats offer this year?
a methhead, crossdressing beta male
a black pot smoking DA, who is anti-black anti-drug, and Sucked her way into her position
openly gay, but still in the closet, black guy; from New Jersey (with a lesbo 'girlfriend')
a openly gay, REMF, socialist mayor of a failing small midwestern town
a elderly socialist senator, that got kicked out of a commune... for being too lazy to work
a elderly sex offender, that is suffering from dementia

did i miss any? Oh, that's right; a couple of FUCKING Billionaire White Wallstreet guys

Fernandinande said...

Two people cannot contain all the identities required to satisfy identity politics.

Like Obama, Kamala Harris isn't black, but her important characteristic is that she's not white.

gilbar said...

ooops! i forgot that old white lady economics professor, that pretends to be an indian

tim maguire said...

Howard said...
I thought you people got turned on by fat and ugly given how much you lap up Donald's jiz.


Homophobic jokes from the liberal. Why am I not surprised?

Gusty Winds said...

Doesn't Michelle Obama count as a black woman, or is the speculation true?

Mr Wibble said...

Two people cannot contain all the identities required to satisfy identity politics.

I'm sure we can find black, polyamorous lesbian vegan crossfitter in a committed throuple somewhere. Add in an obese disabled genderqueer latino and you've got a winning ticket!

Howard said...

It's not homophobic Tim Maguire because you people identify as female based on your soap opera loving behavior.

Fernandinande said...

Abrams adds the fact that she is so grotesquely fat and ugly that it has to be her, right.

Does she have her own ZIP Code™?

Leland said...

I never understood the Tim Kaine pick. I had never heard of him before he was picked. He came from a state that was likely an easy Dem pick up (and was). He was as white male as you could get. And he offered nothing to anyone west of the Appalachians or south of the Mason/Dixon.

Then again, I wasn't inspired by Mike Pence either, and while he's been ok as Vice President; I've seen nothing that would thrill me if he ran for President in 2024.

brylun said...

The Multi-Talented Ms. Abrams:

"I would be an excellent running mate[.]"

Eleanor said...

Of those two, Biden needs to choose Abrams because she will be the only thing standing between him and the nursing home with the dementia wing.

danoso said...

What a charade. It's obvious Slo Joe isn't up to the demands of running for President, letting alone handling the job. So we pretend the VP is oh so important, forgetting every other election where the VP slot mattered little. But it matters this time because Joe will be 25th'ed outta office soon after taking the oath. And we're not supposed to take that into consideration when voting for him, but we should take it into consideration when selecting a VP. I'm going back to bed.

BUMBLE BEE said...

If you think "Joe" is selecting you should seek competent treatment.

Ryan said...

Harris' husband is an old white guy named Doug. A partner at the law firm DLA Piper in Century City.

Birches said...

Kamala Harris is the Tim Kaine pick of 2020. In four years, it will be obvious that it should have been someone else.

And yes, the Hillary campaign should have picked Booker. It might have helped, though Booker showed no more charisma than Kaine in his presidential run.

Rick said...

So the interesting question is whether Kamala Harris or Stacey Abrams is the better pick.

This is worse than nothing.

Notice no one cares about who could handle the job and the potential job of the presidency. If you thought like that you wouldn’t be for Biden in the first place.

Completely true, this election is an experiment. Null hypothesis: candidates don't matter.

Lurker21 said...

Everybody mentioned in your post is appalling. Tim Kaine, despite (or because of) all his years in politics, is a nonentity. Cory Booker is a child. Having an African-American on the ticket could have helped Hillary Clinton, but there was no way any VP pick of hers was going to generate the kind of enthusiasm that Barack Obama did. Stacey Abrams is a repellent grifter and hanger-on. I have a soft spot for Kamala Harris because of all the shit she's had to go through, but she's definitely not very likeable. Not everybody digs the dominatrix vibe like we do. Ntozake, I was going to ask what you've done in the last 40 years, but I see that you were dead for the last two, so you are excused. The Rainbow really was enuff, I guess. RIP Ntozake Shange.

Ryan said...

Harris is also from California, which Biden will already win in a landslide.

Abrams is from Georgia, and not towing around her own old stuffy white guy.

Seems kinda obvious what to do.

BarrySanders20 said...

The question was which is better for Biden. Better in the sense of which VP pick, as between the two of them, would GARNER more votes where he needed them. He needs votes in swing states, not Cali. Abrams actually is authentic black. Harris is kae in her blackness as in the rest of her. Abrams puts Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin in play and fires up urban voters who vote based on tribe and skin color to come out to vote, many of whom stayed home last time.

So it is a no brainer which one between Abrams or Harris helps Biden more.

Neither one is capable of being an effective president.

BarrySanders20 said...

"kae" = fake

Bay Area Guy said...

"Kaine brought good and solid credentials. But the difference between a Cory [Booker] and Tim Kaine could’ve closed the enthusiasm gap."

Biden's gonna need someone to close the senility gap......

Birches said...

And yeah, I'm not sure black men are going to be enamored with either pick.

CJinPA said...

Abrams is the politically wiser choice. Plus she has all but demanded the VP spot, so Biden better agree if he knows what's good for him.

Stephen said...

For an exciting fall campaign, I’d like to see Oprah on the ticket, but why would she take such a huge step down?

Oso Negro said...

Queen Latifah! Let's get some flava!

Jupiter said...

"Does she have her own ZIP Code™?"

Better. She's Governor of her own State!

Ryan said...

How about Bee Nguyen as VP? She actually won recently in Georgia, unlike Stacy. There has never been an asian american Veep candidate.

Or would that look even mire like Biden is a skeezy old white guy on a vacation in Vietnam?

robother said...

I think Joe should pick whichever one whose hair smells the best.

DarkHelmet said...

I hate identity politics.

But it appears we are stuck with it for the foreseeable future. Thanks, Dems.

Harris is a typical obnoxious upscale opportunist pol.

Abrams is just appalling.

Important question: who is actually making decisions for Biden at this point? His wife?

Tom T. said...

I seem to recall a recent poll indicating that having a minority as Biden's running mate was a much greater concern among white Democrats than among minorities.

Ryan said...

Oprah has been coddled and loved for too long. Politics is dirty. She can watch it all safely from her beachfront pad in Montecito.

Jupiter said...

I chose Harris, just 'cause she's less stridently repugnant than that HellSow Abrams. But I suppose the idea of this exercise is to try to put myself in the place of someone who might conceivably vote for one of these two sickening opportunists.

Hmmmm... tough one.

Unknown said...

I can’t vote on those crap picks.

Tank said...

Could not vote for either. Both a nightmare.

James K said...

"Looking back on it, it’s fair for people to ask if we should’ve factored enthusiasm more into it."

But wait, I thought Hillary really won the election. I mean she got 3 million more votes! Now they're trying to explain why she lost? They need to pick a position and stick with it.

richlb said...

Or a dark horse (sorry, but that's the term) rides in from left field.

Lurker21 said...

I never understood the Tim Kaine pick.

Hillary thought she was going to win over suburban Republicans, so she wanted somebody who wouldn't be threatening to them, and indeed she did win over a lot of those voters. She also wanted somebody who wouldn't threaten her by upstaging her or being rebellious, and Tim Kaine certainly fit that profile as well. Kaine was a "resume candidate" -- the politician who looks good on paper, but founders/flounders completely on the national stage.

who would go vote for Biden/Harris,that wouldn't go vote for Biden?
who would go vote for Biden/Abrams,that wouldn't go vote for Biden?


The important part was "go vote." A bigger African-American turn out would have put Hillary Clinton over the top. Of course, a Black running mate -- a bad, unqualified or unlikable Black running mate -- could hurt a candidate, but that wasn't likely to have been a big factor in 2016.

The idea that you are going to find some bland moderate White guy -- Tim Kaine -- who would bring over swing voters turned out to be a fallacy. Kaine didn't inspire anyone to go to the polls. He was meant to be a sign that Clinton was safe and reliable, but he was just ignored and forgotten.

You want somebody who can energize votes to get off the sofas. That could be a woman. Not necessarily an African-American woman, though Biden is being pushed and pulled in that direction. Still, it won't be Obamamania II, or even Hillarythusiasm III.

J. Farmer said...

Harris' husband is an old white guy named Doug. A partner at the law firm DLA Piper in Century City.

Why is it nearly every time a white guy is married to a black women, he's Jewish? Is it some connection over a history of oppression? Revenge against mom? The female equivalent of black men marrying white women or light-skinned black women when they get successful? In any event, every time I hear that a professional black woman is in an interracial marriage, I guess the husband is Jewish. And I'm almost never wrong.

I looked up a picture. They actually make a cute couple. They kind of remind me of the neighbors from The Jeffersons The actress that played the wife, Roxie Roker, was herself married to a Jewish man. She sang the theme song, and their son is Lenny Kravitz. Hmm...perhaps that explains the marriages. The propensity to produce stunningly beautiful children. Kravitz's ex-wife, Lisa Bonet, was the daughter of a black father and a Jewish mother. Zoë Kravitz is their daughter.

gilbar said...

Tank said... Could not vote for either. Both a nightmare.

Yeah, But; Could Tank vote for Biden? You're not the droids they are looking for

Ryan said...

Michelle O would be unknown were it not for her husband. Instinctively, it just feels wrong to believe she (or Hilary, or Dole's wife, etc.) would be suitable. Like nepotism.

Howard said...

Maybe they are trying to breed the perfect jew-fro, Farmer

Darkisland said...

Kamala Harris is not even black.

John Henry

CJinPA said...

This is the inevitable result of Identity Politics.

Candidates will chosen by their inverse ranking on the

V
I
C
T
I
M

T
O
T
E
M

P
O
L
E

JackWayne said...

I don’t care who he picks. After the way Harris lied about him during a debate, if Biden picks her it would show me what a weakling he is.

Jake said...

Abrams is from the south and also more authentically black.

Ryan said...

"Why is it nearly every time a white guy is married to a black women, he's Jewish?"

Well, we are talkimg about the legal profession, and in West LA.

Lurker21 said...

Why is it nearly every time a white guy is married to a black women, he's Jewish?

1) That is not nearly so much the case now as it was in the past generation.

2) It's show business. People in the business (and half the people outside the business who socialize with people in the business) are Jewish.

3) It seems like half the time a non-celeb male is married to an actress of any color, he is Jewish. He gets the status. She gets the nurturing (not always, but often enough to be a factor).

Sebastian said...

What does it say about a party and a people that they demand craven identity-politics pandering?

What does it say about Joe that he feels the need to?

I invite you to think deeply about this.

Clyde said...

Option 1: Kamala Harris, who is of Jamaican-Indian-Canadian-American background. Melanin level: Medium. Personality: Not good enough to get the Democrat Presidential nomination. Executive experience: None, unless you think that being a District Attorney and Attorney General qualifies; executive BRANCH, though..

Option 2: Stacey Abrams, 100% real McCoy African-American background. Melanin level: High. Personality: Not good enough to get elected Governor of Georgia. Executive experience: A little with private companies, actual role uncertain.

Option 3: Michelle Obama, also 100% real McCoy African-American background. Melanin level: High. Personality: Not good enough to win over Republicans, although Democrats would love her just because she is married to their hero Barack Obama. Executive experience: Little if any.

Neither option 1 or option 2 would be likely to build much enthusiasm among black voters, especially black men. Mrs. Obama is probably the most likely to generate black voter enthusiasm, although whether she would want a job where she would actually have to work is unknown. That hasn't been her MO in the past.

As we all know, however, Democrats don't believe in merit or job qualifications, only skin color and other minority box check-offs (woman, LGBTUVWXYZ, non-Christian, etc.), the more the better. That's how we got two terms of Barack, even though he only checked off one box.

ga6 said...

Kaine was/is not a moderate. He is an old line, urban pol with a long memory and a vicious streak, He was going to be the upfront hatchet man fronting for an even more vicious chief with an even longer memory.

iowan2 said...

I voted for Abrams. She's not near as evil as Harris. Abrams is just a typical talking point Dem.

Lurker21 said...

And he offered nothing to anyone west of the Appalachians or south of the Mason/Dixon.

Ironic, since Kaine was born west of the Appalachians and lived south of the Mason-Dixon line, but true. Hillary didn't do the math on that. #SheMookedUpReallyBad.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

1. Hillary - in black face
2. Amy K - in black face.
3. Ralph Northam - in black face.

Howard said...

Sebastian: Pandering to inclusion is a higher aspiration then pandering to exclusion like you people do.

gspencer said...

Whatever it takes to keep LBJ's dream alive, "I'll have those niggers voting Democratic for 200 years."

Clyde said...

It should also be noted that Abrams has never served at a higher political office than ten years in the Georgia State Assembly, with the last six years as minority leader. No federal level experience in Congress, etc. She failed in her one attempt at winning statewide office. The idea of a person with such little experience at running ANYTHING being a heartbeat away from the presidency of the United States of America should terrify anyone with a lick of sense. Is the Democrat bench THAT weak?

SeanF said...

J. Farmer: My father and I were just talking about this yesterday. He had said he was going to pick a woman, and I was guessing that it would likely be a female candidate.

Really going out on a limb there, Farmer.

Michael said...

Stacey Abrams is a vile racist of the worst sort. Losing by over 50,000 votes she opted for the voter suppression excuse with a huge dollop of the white man did it. A whole generation of black children, at a stroke, believe the system is stacked against them.

Howard said...

In case you haven't noticed Clyde it's the Democrat top of the ticket that is so motherfuking weak.

Francisco D said...

Gusty Winds said... Doesn't Michelle Obama count as a black woman, or is the speculation true?

If Michelle wanted the VP slot, it would be hers for the asking. However, the Obamas are now beyond mortal politics.

The are American Royalty.

J. Farmer said...

Really going out on a limb there, Farmer.

Haha. I was just recapping the conversation as a preface. We were talking about Harris, but I had actually forgotten about Abrams. He obviously try some way to get the Bernie Bro’s on his side. I think Biden should just go full dementia ticket and pick Maxine Waters. But seriously, how insulting must that be to Abrams or Harris? Being chosen as a token. But then again, lust for power frequently beats self-respect.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

wow - A check box diversity hire to liven up the dead pool.

eh-. Our political class sucks.

Rick said...

Democrats need someone plausible and authentically a black woman -- who can win support from race-guilty white progressives,

This is not true, this group would vote for a mushy cracker (and is about to).


win support from actual african-american voters,

This is true, but neither of the VP options discussed effects voters in play. Kamala turns off the grievance studies activists but they'll end up voting Dem anyway just as the white progs will. Dems need to appeal to those who prioritize the economy over identity politics - that's who Trump is peeling away. But they don't have anyone who can do that and their focus on identity politics precludes selecting that person even if they did.

Ultimately the VP pick doesn't matter anyway. People who care whether Biden is likely to die just won't vote for him no matter who the veep is.

Amadeus 48 said...

I am not convinced that Joe Biden will be the nominee against Trump.

In any case, if the Dems choose a person who identifies as a black female for VP candidate, it will be Stacey "Tank" Abrams. She can run against Brian Kemp and win this time. When Biden bows out for health reasons, she will remain in the VP slot, with Andrew Cuomo or Jay Inslee or Gavin Newsom dropped in as Prexy, thereby igniting another firestorm among Democrats. Trump will note that the Democrats are "very unfair".

Off to the salt mines.

donald said...

You don’t know to much about Abrams Iowa2.

Jersey Fled said...

388,000 Africans were brought to the U.S. as slaves vs 1.2 million to Jamaica. So Kamella can claim slave heritage as credibly as Abrams can.

I'm Full of Soup said...

I prefer to call her Stacey Abrams Tank.

MountainMan said...

It’s going to be interesting to see how the endorsement of Trump by respected (and now former) Democrat legislator Vernon Jones will have on the black vote in Georgia. He was going to resign his seat once he “left the plantation” (his own words) but he got an overwhelming volume of calls from his constituents to stay on. He credits Trump, despite the current downturn, of doing more for black people than any other President. His Democrat colleagues were not happy, so he quit the party.

Lurker21 said...

Is that what they call the cash sale these days?

Please spare us.

Taking care of Judy Garland or Marilyn Monroe was no picnic.

Tommy Duncan said...

At least with Abrams we'd have the "tank" jokes to giggle at.

Lurker21 said...

How would Michelle Obama do in debates with Mike Pence? It's true that you can "lose" the debates and still come out a winner, but Michelle would have to put in an immense amount of prep to even lose in a respectable way. Plus, she doesn't want it.

Clyde said...

Jersey Fled said...
388,000 Africans were brought to the U.S. as slaves vs 1.2 million to Jamaica. So Kamella can claim slave heritage as credibly as Abrams can.


True, but the guilt for the Jamaican slave trade belongs to the British, not the Americans. A small but real distinction.

J. Farmer said...

Let's hope no one suggests that he pick Ilhan Omar. Although, it would be worth it just to see Frank Gaffney's and Michael Ledeen's heads explore. And Omar gives you a quadruple threat: black, female, Muslim, immigrant. If she was a lesbian, she'd have a full BINGO.

Mark said...

It's like the "early hours for seniors and vulnerable people" social distancing rules at the store. You all have already been here and gone through everything and emptied the shelves.

Meanwhile, about Tim Kaine -- I could have told you (and did) that he was a dolt non-entity. He has been as a do-nothing senator and was as governor. If he was a buffoon, it would be a step up.

rhhardin said...

I've never had credentials.

Dave Begley said...

By all means, China Joe should pick an unmarried woman who has never held state-wide office and owes the IRS money. She's also a romance novelist.

Xmas said...

Kamala Harris would be an awful choice. She didn't even have support of Black voters in the primaries. As a prosecutor and DA she was known to railroad defendants, hide evidence and be very "pro-cop". With everything that is going on now with the virus, the BLM movement has disappeared, but in the run up to November, Trump's commutations and pardons are going to stand in stark contrast to RAVE Act Biden and Kamala the Kop.

William said...

She's definitely got more authenticity than Harris and will turn out more black voters. The downside is that she is utterly unprepared and and in my estimation unfit to be President. A lot of white voters would turn out to vote against her. She doesn't know how to do that delicate balancing act of turning on black people and white liberals without turning off white moderates. Obama could do it and, to a far lesser extent, so can Harris, but Abrams no.

Michael K said...

Howard has the troll level up to 11 this morning. I agree that Biden will have some sort of medical emergency before the election.

Rick said...

Biden yesterday: "Mark my words, I think he is gonna try to kick back the election somehow, come up with some rationale why it can't be held,' Biden said during an online fundraiser on Thursday."

Left wing conspiracy theorists claim this every cycle a Rep is President, I remember a journalist claiming it about Bush. But it's a sign of his dementia he's saying it as the nominee.

So let's not worry overmuch about the VP pick.

Static Ping said...

I picked Kamala only because she is more attractive and less annoying. There's nothing really to recommend either of them as their primary accomplishments are political advancement as opposed to, you know, actual accomplishments. Then again, that might be a higher standard than Biden who has used his political accomplishments to make things worse. But he does get to ride trains. Weeeeeee!

chickelit said...

Suckin' fad

MikeR said...

Michelle Obama is so much the best pick.

Rory said...

"It's hard to believe, in retrospect, that Hillary picked Tim Kaine."

The Clintons greatest strength is their ability to identify pepople who will give them personal loyalty.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Rory - exactly. Tim Kaine was the *wink* got Clinton graft back/private server back/international pay to play scheme back/ you can have some, too, babe * shhh *wink*

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

We can roll the tape of Bernie and Kamala going after establishment Joe. Be fun!

narciso said...

but he was fluent in Spanish, lol, whoever slo jo picks will be regarded as the best thing since sliced bread, even the most tired of hacks,

MadisonMan said...

The challenge is not to pick an upstager. This was part of McCain's problem: His VP choice was more interesting than he was. Offhand I can't think of a good candidate -- the two mentioned here, Harris and Abrams, are too well-known in my opinion, and too many have poor impressions of them. Also, do you really want to pick a loser as a running mate? Harris just lost a national race, Abrams a state one.

Tommy Duncan said...

"And Omar gives you a quadruple threat: black, female, Muslim, immigrant. If she was a lesbian, she'd have a full BINGO."

She married her brother. That has to count...

Tim said...

Just the fact that Abrams got nearly to the governorship shows how debase our politacl culture is. Another angry, repellent Ivy lawyer.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

U.S. Intelligence Knew Russia Preferred Hillary to Trump, But John Brennan Hid the Truth, Ex-NSC Chief Says

We knew that.

Lem said...

I would go with the governor of Georgia, Stacey Abrams. CBS Gayle King said the governor is "extremely qualified" to be president, or vice president. Whatever.

Kamala Harris is too good looking to chance Joe Biden standing near her, resisting going for a whiff of that hair. Kamala Harris was also a prosecutor. She put people of color in Jail. That's AOC's democratic party.

The good money is in the governor of Georgia.

tim maguire said...

Jersey Fled said...388,000 Africans were brought to the U.S. as slaves vs 1.2 million to Jamaica. So Kamella can claim slave heritage as credibly as Abrams can.

We can all claim slave heritage, many times over. That's just historical fact. The issue is white guilt--who can leverage it and who can't. If the Dems want to wrap their grubby little fingers around American white guilt, they need a descendent of American slaves.

iowan2 said...

As mentioned up thread, I don't believe for a second Joe will be the nominee, The man is sick, and need care, this is nothing less then elder abuse. I identified Cumo as the Dem Club choice. But he started to live in his GOD complex the last month or so, getting worse as the calendar marched forward. Wednesday comment about people not being able to work, to go get an "essential job", broke his political back in my mind. So who has the Club picked now? I think it's all academic. Name one person that would be better at driving the post covid economy than President Trump. His economic strategy has been past impressive into the miracle level performance. By Labor Day it's going to be clear the largest threat to our health is going to be lack of work, not a virus that is not particular notable.
I'll leave the guess work, as to who, to the much more politically astute than I.

iowan2 said...

Just the fact that Abrams got nearly to the governorship shows how debase our political culture is. Another angry, repellent Ivy lawyer.

No offense meant to our host, but a law degree is a terrible indicator of ability. Reading comprehension, and memory. That's a bare minimum of the start of a talent stack.

SeanF said...

Tommy Duncan: "And Omar gives you a quadruple threat: black, female, Muslim, immigrant. If she was a lesbian, she'd have a full BINGO."

She married her brother. That has to count...


She's also constitutionally ineligible, (un?)fortunately.

Narr said...

Oh boy, MORE reason not to vote for D's.

Narr
It's an embarrassment of riches

Known Unknown said...

Identity politics are so fun.

tcrosse said...

As mentioned up thread, I don't believe for a second Joe will be the nominee.

Neither do I, but whatever shit the Dems are trying to pull, Amy, Liz, and Mayor Pete are in on it.

mezzrow said...

I'm going to have to vote for cheese on toast. Or Michelle Obama.

I suppose we're all assuming that Biden will make it through the election as a plausible candidate.

That's quite an assumption, from where I sit. At some point the church ladies will understand he's not all there, no matter how hard the party organs work to disguise that fact. Church ladies are no fools, and when he loses them, there's no reason remaining to keep him around.

Much better to ask which black female future President will come roaring in with all the momentum to November from the unprecedented convention to come.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

What astonishes me about the collective left is their ability to willfully ignore the crooks.

Biden and Hillary are both international pay-to-play crooks. Total ignore.

Tom said...

I can’t even pick.

Kamala Harris was an authoritarian DA who put a lot of innocent people in jail. Stacy Abrams hasn’t won above a state legislator office.

That’s the best the Dems can do?

rcocean said...

Abrams has done nothing except be a state legislator and lose a run for Governor. Harris is a Senator. Biden will choose Harris over Abrams because he knows and likes her. Plus he knows what her hair smells like.

J. Farmer said...

Looks like the Democrats are oping Abrams can be the next Obama. Both of her parents are Methodist ministers, and Abrams does not speak with a whiff of Ebonics, though I don't know if she has that Oprah talent for being to dip into at will. She's got one of those resumes that looks quite impressive at first glance (e.g. Yale, deputy city attorney of Atlanta at 29), but at closer inspection seems pretty padded. She had a state legislative position for years and then burst onto the national scene with her gubernatorial run.

And also like Obama, Abrams (ghost)wrote a pseudo-inspirational book a couple of years ago, Lead from the Outside: How to Build Your Future and Make Real Change, blurbed by Obama, Oprah, Common, and Jimmy Carter. She's published a bunch of romance novels under a pen name. I wonder how long before Tyler Perry options one for a fim. Gabourey Sidibe as Abrams?

rcocean said...

Culturally Harris isn't African American. She's black in the same way Obama was black. She's half-Indian, Half-mulatto. Her "black" father, is actually part white and descends from Jamaican Slave owners. She grew up in Berkeley and Montreal, is married to a Jewish millionaire, and spent her political life in the SF Bay area.

She has no kids, and was never married until 50. Her parents were upper-class, one Stanford Prof, the other a medical researcher.

rcocean said...

She's basically Diane Feinstein with a younger, browner face.

Pookie Number 2 said...

Why is it nearly every time a white guy is married to a black women, he's Jewish?

It’s probably because so many Jews are politically progressive.

The test case is to see how many Jewish economists are married to African Americans.

LA_Bob said...

Isn't it amazing? A year ago there were 21 or 22 Dem candidates for president. Finally it has boiled down to one senile old white man and which black woman will be his running mate.

Whatta country!

Bruce Hayden said...

I am not sure if this really matters. I just don’t see the Dems actually giving Biden the nomination. It would be hard to slip anyone besides the VP nominee into the top slot after Biden is formally nominated, and neither one of those women would do that well against Trump. They really need to slide Biden out and someone else in before their convention. The only thing worse than the old China Joe for the Dems would be the new Senile Joe. I don’t think that they can keep up the fiction through November that Biden is competent of even tying his own shoes.

How do you convince someone to vote for someone clearly incapable of making Presidential decisions? OrangeManBad? Not nearly enough. The way that I think that Trump attacks Biden is through pity. Here’s a guy who has spent the last half century in public service. He doesn't want to retire, but really needs to, for his own good. Vote for Trump so that Biden can spend his last precious years with his family. Think of it like taking the car keys away from your parent. My partner, facing someone in a similar situation to Biden, just kept pretending that the keys had been misplaced, until her father just forgot about them. Until her sister showed up, gave their father the car keys when he asked, and he promptly got in the car, drove off, and got lost. Can you trust someone with the nuclear codes, whom you can’t trust with their own car keys?

Abrams would, I think, scare too many white people to be effective as a candidate. And it isn’t clear that she can be controlled. Harris has always been a sellout, which means that she can be told what to do, and will do it. That means that, with her paler skin, she isn’t as threatening to white middle class voters, and, more importantly, the Deep State, which Dem Presidents either have to obey (Obama) or reach an accommodation with (Crooked Hillary). Wonder why the Dems ran someone in 2008 with no executive experience! Because for them, that wasn’t a bug, but rather a feature. He couldn’t interfere with the operation of the bureaucracy, because he was clueless about how to manage his way out of a wet paper bag. Harris would do what she is told to do. Abrams maybe not.

Gunner said...

MadisonMan: It would be hard NOT to upstage Slow Joe, but you are right. McCain's family was so still so insecure, they were afraid Palun would upstage him at his own funeral!

Kevin said...

Do we know their preferred pronouns?

Because that’s also important.

Kevin said...

I hear Warren is also 1/1024 black.

Kevin said...

Abrams would, I think, scare too many white people to be effective as a candidate. And it isn’t clear that she can be controlled. Harris has always been a sellout, which means that she can be told what to do, and will do it.

It’s down to which black woman Joe can put back in chains.

J. Farmer said...

@Pookie Number 2:

It’s probably because so many Jews are politically progressive.

That's true. Jewish involvement in the Civil Rights movement is also played up. But then again, there is also a tradition of anti-Semitism in blacks. Farakan and the Nation of Islam is the most prominent example. They published a book, The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews, that claimed Jews were behind the Atlantic slave trade. The book came to prominence when Tony, an African studies professor at Wellesley, assigned it to his students.

Incidentally, one of his colleagues was the classicist Mary Lefkowitz, who made a name for herself in the early 90's refuting the Afrocentrism movement that had been gaining steam after Martin Bernal published Black Athena. It's still a prominent belief among a subset of black power activists that blacks are descended from Ancient Egypt and had built a great civilization, before it was stolen from them by the Greeks. Lefkowitz's criticism of this position and Martin's inclusion of the book in his curriculum apparently ignited quite a feud between the two. They published competing book's against each other. Not Out of Africa and The Jewish Onslaught: Despatches from the Wellesley Battlefront by Martin. Battlefront? Despatches? Oh brother. Pretty embarrassing for a Marcus Garveyite.

J. Farmer said...

I can say Biden introducing Abrams now: "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking girl. I mean, that's a storybook, man."

fleg9bo said...

Why is it nearly every time a white guy is married to a black women, he's Jewish?

When I worked for a while at a high-tech Silicon Valley company, my best bud was a black woman who was married to an older white Jewish guy. She and her friend, another black woman, were fans of Condoleeza Rice back before any of us white folk had ever heard of her. They also held the same low opinion as I did of the company's diversity team. I hope the two of them survived the tech meltdown of 2000. I'm sure they appreciated the Trump economy and voted for him.

stever said...

HRC was inevitable. VP wasn’t going to matter. They were not smart in many ways.

Sam L. said...

I think you need a "Neither" block for the VP slot, and an "Insert name of your choice" slot.

Arashi said...

Well obviously, he needs to pick a trangendered person of color, who identifies as a gay unicorn, who is non-binary, from a non-deplorable area of the US, and who is vegan.

But hey, since the Trump virus is set to kill all of us deplorables anyway, it won't matter who Dementia Joe and the Democrats pick as they will obviously win in a grand landslide that will usher in the greatest period in human history and confine all opposing viewpoints to the dustbin of the gulags. You know it will be so - it is all over the internet, and Fredo and his friends never, ever lie.

Kathryn51 said...

The obvious choice is Donna Brazille. Smart, articulate, lesbian and,oh yeah, she's a woman of color

narciso said...

you rang

narciso said...

much of my jaundice about politics, stemmed from the way McCain discarded palin, who I imagined he initially thought was a fellow reformer, in the fall of 2008, yes the road was a uphill one, after lehman bros, collapsed in mid September, but she continued the contest as if there were matters at stake, it took her a while to realize that Schmidt and Wallace, were doing what scorpions do, however she didn't know what the jones memo proved, that they were just following mccains orders,

Kevin said...

The obvious choice is Donna Brazille. Smart, articulate, lesbian and, oh yeah, she's a woman of color

Plus, she'll know the debate questions before they're asked!

Bob Smith said...

Well, Joe won’t be running anything if he gets elected. If he takes Ms Harris she’ll have her hands full in a three way fight with the Obamas and Clinton’s over who get to play with the country. If it’s that other quota Queen Trump will drop them like a bad habit.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

I kinda like Donna Brazille. Thing is - Brazille is a Bernie supporter. She isn't on board with the Biden-Hillary sh*t.

Can Of Cheese for Hunter said...

Anti-establishment gave Bernie 220 million to fight the establishment.

Then Bernie endorsed the establishment.

Jersey Fled said...

Jersey Fled said...

388,000 Africans were brought to the U.S. as slaves vs 1.2 million to Jamaica. So Kamella can claim slave heritage as credibly as Abrams can.

Clyde responded...

True, but the guilt for the Jamaican slave trade belongs to the British, not the Americans. A small but real distinction.


U.S. banned the importation of slaves in 1807, so most actually occurred when we were a British colony, famously starting in 1619.

policraticus said...

Harris is an odious toady who finds it hard to disguise her penchant for the jackboot when it comes to her enemies.

Abrams is a detestable liar who seems to have become utterly dissociated from reality following her election loss.

It would take a heart of stone not to laugh at Joe Biden's predicament.

He should pick Condoleezza Rice. She has stated a principled opposition to Trump on some issues. She is eminently qualified. She would bring (real) diversity and gravitas to the ticket. Most importantly, it would be a signal to the Trump-skeptical, like me, that a vote for Sleepy Joe wouldn't be the same thing as a vote for a Schumer/Pelosi administration directed by Sanders. It would be a declaration of independence, by Biden, from the batshit crazy wing of the Democratic Party. He would more make up for any shortfall on the left by racking up big numbers among those on the right who are viscerally repelled by Trump. I haven't voted for Biden since I was a senior at University of Delaware, when he spoke at our commencement, while running for President (the first time). I would gladly pull the lever for him again, if I didn't think I was handing the Executive branch off to a bunch of hooligans chaired by a man who is fading into decrepitude.

Amadeus 48 said...

"By all means, China Joe should pick an unmarried woman who has never held state-wide office and owes the IRS money. She's also a romance novelist."

Well, that is the profile of an awful lot of women in America, particularly Democrat voting women. They can identify with her.

J. Farmer said...

much of my jaundice about politics, stemmed from the way McCain discarded palin, who I imagined he initially thought was a fellow reformer, in the fall of 2008,

Palin was a harbinger of things to come. The only difference was she started in politics and ended in reality TV.

McCain has wanted Lieberman, but he was rejected for his pro-choice views. Palin was chosen because she had a Down’s Syndrome kid and would play to the pro-life constituency. Schmidt and Wallace really screwed the pooch in vetting her. She undercut McCain’s entire strategy and messaging against Obama, and that was even before everybody realized she was a dingbat.

JAORE said...

Even my brother, a HARD lefty, thinks Biden announcing he would only consider a woman VP is wrong by limiting the field artificially. By throwing in another variable... worse of course.

Stacey strikes me as a liar (I won) or hyper-partisan/racist beyond even Ms. Harris. (I have her down as a light weight opportunist).

But Harris has problems attracting the black vote and California is already cooked in to be a D vote. Georgia is not. So Stacy I guess.

rcocean said...

I don't know why more Jews marry blacks than white gentiles, but you can be sure its because Jews are such great people. Any difference between White Gentiles and any racial/Religious/ethnic minority can be explained by the superiority of the minority.

corollary of Althouse the male vs. Female rule.

rcocean said...

"McCain has wanted Lieberman, but he was rejected for his pro-choice views."

Joe Liebermann was a liberal Democrat who was an interventionist and supported a strong military. He was Al Gore's VP. McCain said his greatest regret in 2008 was not ignoring his advisers and picking Liebermann. Several Pols had told McCain's advisers that there would be a Convention floor fight if McCain went through and insisted on Liebermann. So, McCain caved. Why you're simplifying that as "Being pro-choice"is puzzling.

rcocean said...

McCain stated he would have chosen Liebermann as either his AG or Sec of State. He waned Miss Lindsey as head of DOD. He also was going to run a one-term "Bi-partisan" administration, with a panel of Senators to select judges. McCain had zero interest in fighting for conservative judges.

Amnesty would have been Job Priority #1 in McCain presidency along with open borders.

GatorNavy said...

Mike R. said

‘ Michelle Obama is so much the best pick.’

I read that as Michelle Obama is so much the best prick

William said...

American exceptionalism applies to slaves. Those enslaved in North America lived out their natural lives. Those enslaved in Jamaica, due to tropical diseases and overwork, had a life expectancy of only about seven years, IIRC....I suppose sharing minority status gives you something in common. If you think your minority status is the most important thing about you, then it gives you a lot in common.....I knew a very good looking woman. She was of Puerto Rican background but had a dark skin. The most important thing about her was her good looks and not her skin color or culture. Good looking women are closer to an elite than a minority, but they're definitely a breed apart.

J. Farmer said...

He should pick Condoleezza Rice. She has stated a principled opposition to Trump on some issues. She is eminently qualified. She would bring (real) diversity and gravitas to the ticket.

Rice didn’t exactly cover herself in glory as National Security Adviser or Secretary of State. Given that Biden’s already tripped over himself to rewrite his Iraq War vote, bringing on one of the primary defender’s of Bush’s worst policy would be challenging. Rice has an impressive biography and is an accomplished, but I never quite got why people were so enthusiastic about her. Perhaps had she not been attached to the foolish Bush doctrine, the trajectory of her career would have been different.

mccullough said...

I don’t think blacks give a shit who Bidens running mate is. His pick will be to placate Wall Street White Progressives

J. Farmer said...

Amnesty would have been Job Priority #1 in McCain presidency along with open borders

Yes, he was truly an atrocious candidate. Bad judgment all the way around. Who the hell in 2008 wanted amnesty and more war?

Birkel said...

Joe Biden deciding would be a funny meme.
What evidence do we have that he is capable of deciding anything?

AlbertAnonymous said...

Was it Kevin that said “Donna Brazille because she’ll know the debate questions in advance”? Classic.

Clearly she’s not against cheating in that way, but with Joe as the candidate, knowing the questions in advance won’t matter. This is gonna be a train wreck campaign. Pass the popcorn please.

Honest question though, what’s better for Joe?

Is it better for Joe to stay hidden in his bunker (I.e. he should want the lock down to continue - gives his handlers the ability to use the smoke and mirrors to their benefit working behind the curtains)?

Or is C19 holding Joe back and he should want to emerge and start the traveling around speaking tour where all 5 or 6 who attend his rallies (plus the millions who watch the clips on TV and the internet) will be able to see how advanced the dementia really is?

mccullough said...

Rice, like Powell, went down with W.

Powell tried to save his sorry reputation by clinging to Obama and the Dems. But it got him nowhere.

He’s another in a long line of careerist generals. A guy who kissed the right ass at the right time throughout his career. After Trump got elected, Powell was no longer a useful idiot for Dems.

Rice is more impressive than Powell. She’s also not a hack like he is.

J. Farmer said...

Several Pols had told McCain's advisers that there would be a Convention floor fight if McCain went through and insisted on Liebermann. So, McCain caved. Why you're simplifying that as "Being pro-choice"is puzzling.

It was Lieberman’s abortion stance that caused so much push back and was the issue that created worry about the convention. McCain said so in his book.

Lurker21 said...

Biden did paint himself into a corner by promising to pick a woman, but everybody knew he wasn't going to pick another White man, so he was only stating the obvious, though he could have widened his options by considering men of color as well. Joe also wanted to give something to the Liz Warren wing of the party, so that they would get behind him early and not snipe from the sidelines for months.

I'm not convinced that Palin hurt McCain in any serious way. He wasn't going to win anyway after the economy foundered/floundered. Nobody who joked about Palin was going to vote for McCain anyway (except maybe Tina Fey), and Palin did bolster McCain's support among more conservative voters. That Palin had serious problems gave Schmidt, Wallace and the other staffers a nice alibi for why their guy lost.

Stacey Abrams is a very polarizing figure. Someone in her position didn't have to be, but someone with her personality couldn't help it. This could be her Geraldine Ferraro moment: a win for #TeamGirls, but a loss on election day.

Bob Boyd said...

He should pick Condoleezza Rice.

The Dems declared Condi "not really black" because she was a Republican. They'd have to reinstate her.

narciso said...

McCain was the amnesty candidate, he really thought the progressives about his McCain Feingold bill, it was just another feint, he went broke in the primaries, he secured florida through a corrupt deal with Charlie Christ, whose henchmen jim greer had looted the party coffers,

Guiliani was saddled with terrible staff like rick Wilson, and john avlon, tweedled dum and dumber at the basilisk, he would have put up a heck of a fight, even fred Thompson would have sparred a fair bit more,

J. Farmer said...

Rice is more impressive than Powell. She’s also not a hack like he is.

I’ll grant you that. Powell was vastly overrated. He coasted in the 90s off the successes of Panama and Iraq and general Cold War triumphalism.

J. Farmer said...

Fred Thompson would have sparred a fair bit more,

Oh man, I remember when there wasn’t a lot of enthusiasm for the field, and people were trying to recruit a Thompson to enter the field. Hannity was a big advocate if I recall. By the time they managed to drag him in, everybody realized he was half-comatose. The whole field was lackluster and low-energy. They seemed to have internalized that defeat was inevitable.

rcocean said...

"It was Lieberman’s abortion stance that caused so much push back and was the issue that created worry about the convention. McCain said so in his book."

That was McCain ascribing reasons to people who talked to his advisers. I can tell you, that Conservatives had a lot more problems with Liebermann than just his Pro-abortion stance. He was AL GORE'S VP! He was acceptable to the most liberal D politician in 2000. And now, eight years later, McCain wanted him as the Republican VP - its the most insane thing I've ever heard of.

As McCain well knew, or should have known, Liebermann was a standard Liberal democrat who was a globalist-hawk on foreign policy and Defense. He wasn't a bomb-throwing liberal on domestic policy but there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between him and AL Gore.

What made it even worse, is that NEVER during the primaries - or prior to his descion to dump Liebermann and get Palin, did McCain make it know that he was going to run a bi-partisan adminstration or nominate AL Gore's VP as HIS VP.

Yancey Ward said...

Clinton picked Kaine because he was from Virginia. I thought it a reason pick because I, too, operated under the impression that Trump had to win Virginia to even have a chance to win the election (my calculation of the odds, though, convinced me Trump would, in fact win the election, just not the way he did).

The calculation Biden has to make, of course, is now different- we now know how Trump won.

rcocean said...

And when I say Conservatives, I mean REAL conservatives. I remember in August 2008 when McCain advisers floated a trial balloon about Liebermann being VP. I found it incredibly odd that "conservatives" like Bill Kristol and Jonah Goldberg and the whole NRO crowd were A-OK with it. Of course, now I know all those people were FAKE CONS.

rcocean said...

Imagine Barrack Obama in 2008, picking Jack Kemp as his VP. Or Hillary wanting Paul Ryan! Only the fucking Republicans pull this kind of crap.

Sebastian said...

“I would be an excellent running mate,” Abrams said in a recent interview with Elle magazine, citing her “strong history of executive and management experience,” as well as her “25 years in independent study of foreign policy.”

Defining competency down.

Then again, after "pragmatic" Barry O and with Slow Joe at the head of the ticket, who cares?

Kevin said...

How can Abrams be VP when she's already the rightful Governor of Georgia?

Leland said...

Hillary thought she was going to win over suburban Republicans, so she wanted somebody who wouldn't be threatening to them, and indeed she did win over a lot of those voters. She also wanted somebody who wouldn't threaten her by upstaging her or being rebellious, and Tim Kaine certainly fit that profile as well.

I completely agree with the second part, but the first part could have been done with a better pick. Thus I think the emphasis was not upstaging her. I think this really illustrates why she was a bad candidate.

Narr said...

Washington DC is ground zero for a neutron bomb--leave all the nice things, eliminate the two-legged vermin.

I can't recall who said it first, but Afrocentrism is the theory that the ancient Greeks stole all their best ideas from the Africans . . . leaving the latter with none.

Narr
Condy Rice? Pffft.

Drago said...

Farmer: "It was Lieberman’s abortion stance that caused so much push back and was the issue that created worry about the convention. McCain said so in his book."

Wrong.

Not wrong about what McCain said in his book, but wrong across the board. Conservatives were already wary about McCain on a host of issues, and Lieberman as a VP candidate would have exacerbated all of those issues.

Naturally McCain, who despised republican voters, attributes it all to abortion, because of course he does.

McCain also claimed in later years that he played no part in pushing the hoax dossier into the media....we now know he was lying about that as well.

J. Farmer said...

@rcocean:

That was McCain ascribing reasons to people who talked to his advisers. I can tell you, that Conservatives had a lot more problems with Liebermann than just his Pro-abortion stance. He was AL GORE'S VP! He was acceptable to the most liberal D politician in 2000.

You ignore some developments in the intervening eight years. Lieberman became hated in the Democratic Party, particularly over his strong support for the war on terror. He was primaried in his state, lost the primary, and then ran as an independent in the general election, which he won. This made him even more loathed in the Democratic Party.

Lieberman and McCain had a long relationship, mostly over their shared enthusiasm for militarism. McCain was presenting himself as the maverick, the straight-talk express, a fiercely independent thinker who wasn't constrained by rigid partisan loyalties. (I am not saying any of this is true only what the messaging was). One of McCain's weaknesses was that he was not particularly liked by social conservatives. He was from Arizona and had a kind libertarian-bend to his approach. This was reported throughout 2008 as pundits pondered his choice.

J. Farmer said...

p.s. The worry over abortion is also evidenced in the fact that he chose Palin, primarily because they believed she would appeal to social conservatives and disaffected Hillary fans.

Drago said...

J. Farmer: "p.s. The worry over abortion is also evidenced in the fact that he chose Palin, primarily because they believed she would appeal to social conservatives and disaffected Hillary fans."

Again, it wasn't just abortion.

Drago said...

Weird. It's like Farmer read McCain's book, believed everything in it and is trying to squeeze history into that framework.

Jim at said...

Harris would be the smarter choice for Biden. That's why I'm hoping he picks Tank.

Just an old country lawyer said...

Tank Abrams is the only reason I voted for that dumb fuck Kemp, and every time he does something else stupid, she pipes up to relieve my conscience.

cubanbob said...

Biden is not, and never was, a top of ticket guy. The best he can be is to be an Ed McMahon to somebody else's Johnny Carson.
No disrespect to the McMahon family intended. The problem for the Democrats is that Senility China Joe is a figurehead and the VP will be the real president. And they have no one any sane and sentient person can vote for. You can't beat something with nothing and nothing is what the Dems have.

mikee said...

I voted Abrams, because with a 2:1 majority against her, Joe can later say he wanted but could not get Harris, to explain his 48 state defeat to Trump.

J. Farmer said...

@Drago:

Weird. It's like Farmer read McCain's book, believed everything in it and is trying to squeeze history into that framework.

As I said this stuff was reported while it was happening. McCain’s friction with the religious right was commented on. Considering that McCain was running on “experience” vs neophyte Obama, Palin undercuts that message. But her most popular support came a slice of the electorate McCain had trouble. It’s not exactly rocket science. Also outlined Lieberman leaving the Democrats. What is your source of information? Mind-reading?

Amadeus 48 said...

So, here I am. I am Michelle Obama. I went to Princeton and Harvard Law, and I earned everything I got on the way up--job at Sidley & Austin, job at the city with Valerie Jarrett, job at the UC Hospital, marriage to Barack (he doesn't walk on water, but he is faithful and loyal), two beautiful, smart daughters who are doing well. Then, there were the White House years--ask Melania Trump or Laura Bush what that is like. You think I didn't get criticized in the meanest possible ways? Honey, let me tell you...under a microscope 24/7/365.

So now you jokers want me to leave my beautiful life to trail around after Joe Biden--or Andy or Gavin--on the theory that I could be POTUS some day? Honey, I didn't even like it when Barack was president. That Nancy Pelosi? Chuck Schumer? Adam f%$#@!g Schiff? What do I want with those people? When this virus nonsense is over, I am going to Paris and Milan, and then the Côte d'Azur and Portofino for some serious international dialogue.

Good luck, Joe. You may be a dope, but you were smart enough never to try to get your paws on me or the girls! You always were a loser.

You folks are trying to elect the mascot as homecoming king.

Amadeus 48 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Amadeus 48 said...

As Sargent Shriver might say, "It's what's happening, baby!"*

*See Amity Shlaes, Great Society.

wildswan said...

How about Jill Biden representing the dementia wing of the Dems? She's the one keeping Joe Biden going right now and it would be better for her to succeed him legally than to struggle with his VP over who runs the country. She's been Second Lady so she knows the job although I understand her correct title would be Mr. Vice President - or should it be Mrs. Vice President? or the bleeping veep-veep? or Queen Edith Wilson II?

J. Farmer said...

@Amadeus 48:

*See Amity Shlaes, Great Society.

I read The Forgotten Man a long time ago but haven't read The Great Society, though I have seen some of her interviews promoting it. It sounds pretty much like the standard conservative critique that's been around forever. My problem with Shlaes is that she seems to start a project with a conclusion and then works backwards to produce a book that supports it. If you approach everything through a "classical liberal" lens, aren't you bound to reach a foregone conclusion? That is, (surprisingly) one that substantiates classical liberalism?

rcocean said...

You ignore some developments in the intervening eight years. Lieberman became hated in the Democratic Party, particularly over his strong support for the war on terror. He was primaried in his state, lost the primary, and then ran as an independent in the general election, which he won. This made him even more loathed in the Democratic Party.

Not really. I said he was globalist/Hawk. That's why he lost his D primary. He was a big supporter of an Iraq War and the DoD. Part of the Democrat party dislikes him but a majority of the party never did:

In 2006 he won re-election in the general election as a third party candidate under the "Connecticut for Lieberman" party label. Never a member of that party, he remained a registered Democrat while he ran. Obama endorsed him for Senator.

Lieberman was officially listed in Senate records for the 110th and 111th Congresses as an Independent Democrat, and sat as part of the Senate Democratic Caucus. After the 2008 election the Senate Democratic Caucus allowed him to keep chairmanship of the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. Before the 2012 election he refused to endorse Romney or obama, He disliked Obama on ONE Issue: Israel and the Iran. In 2016 election, he endorsed Hillary Clinton for President.

rcocean said...

BTW, John McCain wrote in his book that anyone who didn't like how he handled Trump and the FAKE Dossier can "GO TO HELL".

Amadeus 48 said...

J Farmer— What the heck did happen between 1964 and 1972?

Shlaes does have a point of view, some of which I disagree with, some of which I agree with. What I loved about the book is the fresh take on some characters, such as Walter Reuther of the UAW (the godfather of the SDS), Daniel Patrick Moynihan (Nixon fell in love), and Sargent Shriver (LBJ’s Kennedy). Reuther’s politics were adopted hook, line, and sinker by Bernie Sanders—and Michael Moore— right down to the love affair with Sweden circa 1963.

All this is vivid because I grew up in Michigan in the 50s and 60s. Reuther was so busy changing America that he overlooked Toyota. The UAW had 1.7 million members then; now they have around 400,000. Automation plus competition took those numbers down. Reuther missed something crucial. Costs will be reduced one way or another.

Amadeus 48 said...

John McCain was a war hero for sure, but his character was deformed by the pain and rage inside. I never saw a major politician so willing to sucker-punch his friends to the applause of his enemies.

He is gone and will be remembered for a while.

J. Farmer said...

@Amadeus 48:

What the heck did happen between 1964 and 1972?

A big tax cut, the Great Society programs, Vietnam War, contradictory Fed response, LBJ's tax surcharge, Nixon, and the elimination of Bretton-Woods.

Now, how all those things interact and express themselves in the following years, nobody can really say with certainty. And anyone who does is selling you snake oil. But without having even read the book, I'm pretty sure I can confidently guess Shlaes' answer.

Shlaes is a very good writer, but her economics are extremely one-sided and superficial. Her economic thinking is basically a series of round holes in which she jams every square peg. She wants to wage a one-woman army against her simplified understanding of "Keynesianism." Her affectations towards "classical liberalism' or "free market" is a sophomoric libertarianism, and she has an ideologically rigid view of history that leads her to constantly and massively overstate her case.

It is of note that Shlaes spent most of all of 2008 insisting that the economy was fine and fears of a recession were nonsense. She appears no better at analyzing current economic data as she does historical data.

zefal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 204   Newer› Newest»