February 19, 2020

"In her defense of Weinstein, attorney Donna Rotunno attempted to put something of a post-feminist spin on the case, arguing that women must take responsibility — 'autonomy,' is a word she repeated..."

"... for choices like meeting men in hotel rooms for the sake of career advancement. Rotunno recently told a New York Times podcast that she had never been sexually assaulted because she never put herself 'in the position' to be assaulted. 'Regret,' she told the jury last week, is 'renamed as rape' by the accusers. Joan Illuzzi, the Assistant District Attorney serving as lead prosecutor in the trial, described a different universe altogether, one in which young, vulnerable women, financially struggling and attempting to succeed in the ferociously difficult business of Hollywood, were preyed upon by a man whose power was as outsized as his body was large.... On its way to those verdicts, though, the jury has any number of threads to untangle.... Why did Mann and Haley maintain friendly contact with Weinstein after, they say, he assaulted them?... Did Mann tell a friend that Weinstein gave her the best orgasm she’d ever had on the night she says he forcibly performed oral sex on her? If so, doesn’t that indicate consent?... "

From "No Verdict Today In Harvey Weinstein Rape Trial; What The Jury Could Be Thinking" (Deadline).

72 comments:

rhhardin said...

It's a really tangled situation to a woman's mind. A principle isn't going to play much of a role.

gilbar said...

that women must take responsibility — 'autonomy,' is a word she repeated...
... for choices like meeting men in hotel rooms for the sake of career advancement.


In Other Words...
That Bitch was Beggin' to be my Ho. You SEE the shit she was wearin'?

Gusty Winds said...

Is she trying to appeal to female members of the jury that have done the "walk of shame"?

Leland said...

I understand that woman shouldn't have to avoid situations to avoid rape, although the same works for men to avoid all sorts of situations that would lead to being a victim. However, if a career requires a ferociously dangerous work environment, why not select a different career? I don't think it was that dangerous, but I do think the women weighed the reward with the risk and gladly took the risk.

MikeR said...

They should burn the place to the ground. It's similar to professional football: destroying people and paying some of them very well, for our amusement. Swim the Crocodiles.
But yeah, it was obvious from the first (unless you #believeAllWomen) that Weinstein's accusers were probably skipping the part of the story that didn't reflect so well on them. And that things might sound different when they were liable to perjury.

Gusty Winds said...

"Ladies and of the Jury. Let's be real. We've all fucked some dudes we wish we hadn't. And sometimes there's not enough soap and water in the world that can wash away the shame...but sometimes there's an upside. Look at Renee Zellweger and Charlize Theron. They got to do their walk of shame onto the stage and accept an Oscar. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't bed my client, but I'm not trying to be an actress. I just play one here in the courtroom."

Michael K said...

Did Mann tell a friend that Weinstein gave her the best orgasm she’d ever had on the night she says he forcibly performed oral sex on her? If so, doesn’t that indicate consent?... "

"Show me a guy who doesn't eat pussy and I will steal his girl."

Darrell said...

Orgasms and rape are not mutually exclusive.

henry said...

Harvey, the "actresses," the lawyers... can the jury convict them all and vote them off the planet?

Fernandinande said...

maintain friendly contact

Their tall tales should be ignored, as should those of anyone who didn't report the incident, or do something else about it, at the time.

Would there be anyone left?

When the, er, ladies declare by their actions that the incidents didn't bother them enough at the time to make it worth their whiles to do something about it, then it's not worth anyone else's time and effort to do anything about it years later.

Robert Edick said...

Hung jury?

Kevin said...

No Verdict Today In Harvey Weinstein Rape Trial

Actual news: one sentence.

What The Jury Could Be Thinking

Conjecture, speculation, opinion, and culture-shaping: how much time and space do you need us to fill?

This, ladies and gentlemen, is how the "news" is done today.

tim in vermont said...

They use that “best orgasm I ever had” line on me all of the time. They usually just want something, like another proper rogering.

Gusty Winds said...

Was Woody Harrelson (Roy Munson) sexually assaulted by the old red headed Landlady in "Kingpin"?

rhhardin said...

Will it be a woke screenplay or not. A question of money.

rhhardin said...

If Harvey made another movie I'd buy it.

tim in vermont said...

"one in which young, vulnerable women, financially struggling and attempting to succeed in the ferociously difficult business of Hollywood,”

Ha ha ha ha! Every one of them could have gotten well paid work as receptionists for tony legal firms or hostesses at high end restaurants by just wearing nice dresses and shoes. I am reminded of Flip Wilson: “The Devil made me do it!”

tim in vermont said...

"If Harvey made another movie I'd buy it.”

Unless it was some woke disaster to try to “repair his reputation.” But I get your point. He was great at what he did.

Shouting Thomas said...

I had to slog my way thru an online course on sexual harassment and abuse for my church position.

Corporate America has gone completely nuts with this shit. The tenor of the course was Reefer Madness level hysteria.

"Don't even think about sex! Don't touch anybody! People will be maimed for life by the trauma!"

That was the general message, along with the now familiar "Go gay! Gay is the superior moral choice" crap.

Women appear to be too frail to work alongside men in public places. Maybe they should go home to raise kids.

tim in vermont said...

I remember working as a bank teller for something like $150 a week regularly cashing the $400 dollar a week paycheck for a very pretty girl my own tender age who worked as a legal receptionist. I am not sure if "heels up” service was included in her job description though.

Beasts of England said...

In the Obama era the metric would have been: orgasms saved or created...

tim maguire said...

What would we do in any other business where the boss says you have to sleep with me if you want that promotion? There would be no criminal penalties, but there would be pretty severe civil penalties for the boss and the company.

tim maguire said...

Darrell said...Orgasms and rape are not mutually exclusive.

Male rape victims face that a lot--if he was hard then it can't be rape. Because apparently being aroused negates the "no". If you're hard or wet, anybody can jump you and tough luck if it's not what the thinking part of your brain wants.

Howard said...

Cucks and cowards love rapists.

tim in vermont said...

"Cucks and cowards love rapists”

Just redefine the right words and you can convict anybody of anything.

Shouting Thomas said...

Cucks and cowards love rapists.

Sometimes, you're just an awful piece of shit, Howard.

Oddly proud of it, too.

Shouting Thomas said...

I'm considering ponying up the $12 a month to subscribe to YouTube.

I listen to music frequently on YouTube, particularly to hear classical and sacred pieces that I'm studying.

To show you how ubiquitous this Reefer Madness sexual abuse hysteria has become...

I often play The Rosary in Gregorian Chant as background music for my yoga workouts. That is becoming impossible. YouTube interrupts the video several times with ads for a lawyer encouraging me to file a sexual abuse lawsuit against some clergyman.

Isn't it about time for a revival of the Summer of Love?

PB said...

I notice Rotunno's male co-counsel wasn't presenting that argument.

Jeff Brokaw said...

Do adults have to accept the known risks that come with their choices?

Yes or no.

Cue Jeopardy theme...

Jeff Brokaw said...

When that little voice in your head says “ummm this might be a bad idea”, generally you should listen to it.

And if that little voice isn’t doing it’s job, whose fault is that?

Jeff Brokaw said...

Thought experiment for the day: over the last 50 years, how many times have girls and women been betrayed by juvenile and unrealistic feminist ideas?

I’m going with 50 kajillion. Final answer.

Krumhorn said...

I thought that Rotunno’s closing argument was well-crafted. She made the best of a bad situation. Still, I’d be voting to fry him. Even if the prosecution came up short of proving their case (those after-rape emails were a torpedo into the hull of the charging document), he’s guilty of something. It would be worth it to see him push his walker through the gates of Sing Sing. His lard ass will be a tasty morsel for more than one hard pipe bangin’ brother....to quote from one of his best films....ironically.

- Krumhorn

Howard said...

Thanks for that outstanding endorsement Thomas. I'm picturing you right now and your yoga get up Tiffany Harvey Weinstein a back massage while he is wearing a g-string

Krumhorn said...

Certainly he’s guilty of molesting a plant. The indignity of his goo dangling from the leaves of an unconsenting hallway potted tree cannot go unpunished.

- Krumhorn

Howard said...

Gee I wonder why all of the regular Althouse lady commentators are silent on this thread? These are the fine men that you stand with shoulder to shoulder to save America. You should be here supporting your brothers in their fierce battle against equal rights for women.

Shouting Thomas said...

You should be here supporting your brothers in their fierce battle against equal rights for women..

Name the equal rights that women in the U.S. don't enjoy. There aren't any.

Your moral system is so fucked up and contradictory, Howard. On the one hand, you advocate killing your fellow man as the highest moral value, and on the other you repeatedly refer to men who work in occupations that you consider feminine as "sissies."

You are a very confused man with a public facade of self-assurance. You're a fucked up mess, Howard, but you try very hard to project manly confidence.

Maybe you should just admit to being a confused, silly nitwit. The bravado doesn't work.

Lucid-Ideas said...

"Women must take responsibility..."

That'll be the day.

Krumhorn said...

Let’s be clear. None of those women had any illusions about what was going on except to the extent that they actually thought that there was some sort of relationship. That’s how they douched themselves clean of his stanky jizz. That would explain the lovey-dovey emails. In for a penny, in for the pussy pounding. It worked out well for Gwenny and Meryl.

- Krumhorn

BAS said...

Post feminist? When did being responsible for yourself and being strong become post feminist? The original feminist ideas are that women ARE responsible for themselves and can take care of themselves.

Shouting Thomas said...

The original feminist ideas are that women ARE responsible for themselves and can take care of themselves.

The classic feminist myth.

No, BAS, this was never the case.

Roughcoat said...

I dunno. Weinstein is repulsive. I found him repulsive long before this issue came to the fore. In another life I worked on the fringes of the movie business, in Hollywood, as an advertising copywriter, and I knew people who had worked with Weinstein and they all told the same story, that he was a world-class asshole/tyrant and bully. I knew a lot of people like him in the movie/music business, I worked with them. Curiously, almost to the man they were Jewish men. That's subject for another day, a real conversation minefield. Not going there. Back to the original point: Weinstein, repulsive, asshole. He's getting what he deserves and what he courted. He tempted the goddess Nemesis and now she's responding.

On the other hand: I suspect most of those women knew what they were about when they agreed to meet privately with Weinstein. They weren't on the fringes of the movie business, they were at its core, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to meet with him. They knew the stories about him, surely. They knew what to expect.

So, smack that. Next case. Drive on.

Professional lady said...

I really haven't been following the trial closely, but I'll give my two cents. Over the years, I think some of the women went along with Weinstein to get ahead and some were coerced and sexually assaulted. I'll let the jury decide what's what in this case.

Nichevo said...

tim maguire said...
Darrell said...Orgasms and rape are not mutually exclusive.

Male rape victims face that a lot--if he was hard then it can't be rape. Because apparently being aroused negates the "no". If you're hard or wet, anybody can jump you and tough luck if it's not what the thinking part of your brain wants.

2/19/20, 7:57 AM


I was just going to say, Paging Garbage Howie, Garbage Howie to the white courtesy phone...no sooner comes along:


Howard said...
Cucks and cowards love rapists.

2/19/20, 7:57 AM


Self-outing!

PluralThumb said...

The little voice towards better judgment, may be against better judgment. Who knows.
Takes 2 to tango, so I've heard. Another is allowed to say, thank you but I do not want to tango or get raped. The conflict is that I do want into Hollywood. I'd wear a g string for Harvey to get into Hollywood, but I won't take no $50 dollars for intercourse of any kind. $100 bucks for wearing a g string, no pictures nor autographs. This way I won't have to come after him when I get older and realize I was way under priced. Better have the little voice tell the other little voice NO for starters. Any work history, resume, education ? Work out the aftermath outside other little voices out of the more detremental court system. I do not need to know about Mr Weinsteins body scar nor hear demoralizing statements about him, then get stopped on the street to support anti animal cruelty. Someone forgot to tell Harvey Weinstein that pre-marital sex is not allowed. I surely did not want to be the only hypocrite. I do want to know more about vegan cannibals so I do not get eaten by them in my lifetime's aftermath. I'm all thumbs so I'm an easy target.

Howard said...

I can't wait to hear the girls chime in on this one. Maybe they're swooning over there big strong men hoping maybe they will force themselves on them because you know they always want it and they like it rough.

Nichevo said...

You sure hang on others' words a lot, Howie.

n.n said...

Weinstein had female handlers who facilitated the meetings, including, as I recall, Oprah. Women should beware Feminists making em-pathetic appeals. Sym-pathetic appeals, too. #HateLovesAbortion

Shouting Thomas said...

Maybe they're swooning over there big strong men hoping maybe they will force themselves on them because you know they always want it and they like it rough.

Howard, this is you.

This is an entirely accurately self-description of yourself.

Ground control to Howard! It's you, Howie!

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

"Women must take responsibility..."

"That'll be the day."


No, women have the RIGHT to take responsibility, and you can't stop them, or make them.

Howard said...

I see the girls up and posting on other threads. But not here.

Shouting Thomas said...

Howie, you're projecting your own violent, crazy perspective on other men.

You are easily the most comically self-unaware person to ever appear on this board.

Most other men are not like you. You're a fucking mess, albeit a mess with a strange and inexplicable honor code.

Junk the bravado and self-assurance, Howie. You're a confused moron.

Howard said...

Like shouting, so I don't blame you you've never been in the military you've never worked in heavy industry you've never worked on a large construction site. Guys get maimed and die regularly and all these places. Walking the mean Streets of New York City back in the day doesn't qualify you for a man card I'm sorry. Neither does pitching a no-hitter when you're in high school. The manliest thing that I can see that you do is practice yoga

William said...

I'm glad I'm not on that jury. I would not want to send someone to prison based on such testimony, but you sort of know Harvey is guilty of something....Napoleon raped the Countess Walewska the first time he met her. She was the only woman who visited him during his exile on St. Helena. The human race is rife with contradictory and self destructive impulses especially as regards to sex and bbq.

William said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg the class traitor said...

"for choices like meeting men in hotel rooms for the sake of career advancement"

I like the total and shameless dishonesty there.

"Hi, meet me in the room, set up as an office, in a hotel. it's industry standard practice." "Ok" "Clearly she's a slut willing to sell her body for a promotion!"

If Weinstein wins this, the opposing attorneys should be shot. Because this can be easily taken apart

MD Greene said...

Pretty clear Harvey Weinstein's a grade-A pig, but the Manhattan prosecutors seem to have chosen some bad cases to pursue.

If a guy rapes you and you go back for more over months and years, people tend to regard the interactions as transactional.

Greg the class traitor said...

Crazy Jane:

One of the purposes of sexual harassment law is to prevent people, on both sides, from using "transactional sex" in the hiring / promotion process

IOW, WE make it a crime for bosses to demand sex in exchange for promotion / hiring, because once some women start accepting that trade, all women are forced to either accept that trade or not get hired / promoted.

And, for that matter, it leads to better qualified men not getting hired / promoted, because they couldn't offer the sex

So, no, it does not matter, at all, if, after she's been raped, the woman is willing to try to get something positive from it

And no, it doesn't matter if it wasn't rape, and she was willing to make that trade.

Because we, as a society, quite properly made that trade illegal. And that means Weinstein can be properly crushed for making that trade.

Howard said...

Nice summary, Greg.

M Jordan said...

IMHO, there was a implicit contract between these women and Weinstein: We give you sex, you give us roles. Unless they argue that 1) he didn’t fulfill his end of the contract or 2) that was never the deal, he should be acquitted. He’s a lech and a leech and a vile piece of shit but aren’t women who spread their legs for money whores? Sorry, prostitutes?

MD Greene said...

Greg:

I agree with your framing, but why didn't the DA charge Weinstein's accusers as well?

FullMoon said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FullMoon said...

'Regret,' she told the jury last week, is 'renamed as rape' by the accusers.
Discredited, the Legend of Mattress Girl Just Won’t Go ...

FullMoon said...

"I blame the parents"
Spielberg daughter comes out as porn star...

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

maybe a new awards category: "Best Orgasm"

....and the winner is... Harvey Weinstein !!

Greg the class traitor said...

Crazy Jane said...
"Greg:

I agree with your framing, but why didn't the DA charge Weinstein's accusers as well?"

Because the accusers came into an environment where the "casting couch" as a cliche. They didn't have a vote about the system.

Weinstein did have a vote. And he used it to sexually take advantage of women.

Weinstein's choice was "do I sexually harass, or not?" He chose to do so. nail him.

The women's choice, at worst, was "will I use Weinstein, since he's using me?"

I don't see that as a culpable or criminal choice. Do you?

Shouting Thomas said...

Howard, you’re a doofus.

What in the fuck is this twisted, berserk honor code of yours?

Which is it today? You’re the world’s leading male chauvinist pig or the champion of feminism?

Hilarious gobbly gook from you as usual.

MD Greene said...

Sorry, Greg,

Here's my take: If a guy rapes you, you call the police, get a rape kit done and press charges. Maybe the casting couch is a cliche in the film industry, but there are other ways to support yourself. And if you choose to participate in a corrupt bargain, yes, I think you are culpable.

This article suggests that by late 2017, Harvey Weinstein had abused at least 87 women: https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2017/10/27/weinstein-scandal-complete-list-accusers/804663001/. Most of them waited to come forward until after the first stories were released.

Do you really think that Weinstein could have got away with what he did, starting in the late 1970s and continuing for almost 40 years, if the first 10 or 20 or 30 of those women had made their complaints public instead of settling for little roles in vampire movies or signing NDAs in exchange for monetary payoffs?

Didn't Edmund Burke say something about evil triumphing when good women do nothing?





Howard said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg the class traitor said...

Crazy Jane said...

Do you really think that Weinstein could have got away with what he did, starting in the late 1970s and continuing for almost 40 years, if the first 10 or 20 or 30 of those women had made their complaints public instead of settling for little roles in vampire movies or signing NDAs in exchange for monetary payoffs?

I do not believe it would have made the slightest bit of difference if those women had all gone to the police.

Roman Polanski anally raped a 13 year old girl in 1977. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Polanski#Sexual_abuse_case

The prosecutor agreed to 42 days in jail + probation. If the judge had not blown up the deal, that would have been an end to it.

Instead he fled to France, and spend the next 40 years being lionized by Hollywood.

The cops would have blown off those women. So would the LA DAs. Go look at what Democrats did to Bill Clinton's accusers, in 1992, "the year of the women". Remember "bimbo eruptions"? I do

What Weinstein did was "an open secret in Hollywood". Everyone knew, and no one cared. All those women would have accomplished by going to the cops is getting themselves blown off, or slandered, or otherwise attacked and destroyed.

Howard said...

Duality is your friend in the Quantum mechanical Universe we find ourselves in. It is an interesting question Thomas. I really don't know how I get away with it but I do. My daughter is a super feminist she works at an all male startup tech company in Boston and has been in STEM her entire career. She fully credits my mysogenist attitude with preparing her for the Alpha male work environment. I think also being a division 1 water polo player helped which of course I nurtured.

Rosalyn C. said...

I admit I have not followed this case probably because I have been biased against the women who denied or were never asked if they had any idea what Weinstein was like. I think everyone knew about Harvey. So no one in Hollywood could claim to be like the college girls who get drunk and go back to the guy's room and then claim they had no interest in having sex, but what happened was rape. In Weinstein's case these women were not naive, insecure, or inexperienced co-eds. They were adult women in show business, a business that sells sex. Actresses specifically are women who know they are sexually attractive and aim to exploit that gift.

That doesn't excuse his shitty behavior or change the fact that Weinstein is/was a big and what we call a shmuck. I doubt he will be convicted of rape as the women showed up voluntarily and maintained relationships with him. Again, I don't know all the individual cases so perhaps he did cross the line and knew it -- he appears to have made settlements with several women.

Definitely women have to learn to stand up for themselves if they want to play in a male dominated work environment, and not behave as victims or children.

MD Greene said...

Greg, I'm sorry.

I think we both can be right here. Weinstein is a terrible person who deserves to be held to account for his behavior, and he clearly works in an industry that isn't up to the task.

What the two complainants endured was degrading, and while I wish they had told him to go to hell, I do not believe Weinstein is a victim of any kind. It's nice to think that broader justice would prevail in a criminal court, but I doubt this case will yield a satisfactory result. His lawyers had every incentive to make the accusers look very bad, and those lawyers did their best to make the women's behavior the issue instead of Weinstein's. The jury will decide based on the their testimony -- not the totality of evil Weinstein has done over many years -- and I fear these two women will feel even worse after the jury decides.

As I said at the beginning, the prosecutors could have chosen different complainants. It's not as if there weren't plenty available. And it's not as if Weinstein isn't going to be tried again in California.

You have my best wishes.