A column by Jonathan Chait (at NY Magazine):
Both [Corbyn and Bernie Sanders] built youth-oriented movements led by cadres of radical activists who openly set out to destroy and remake their parties. Both lost in somewhat close fashion, Sanders in 2016 and Corbyn the next year. And fervent supporters of both men treated their narrow defeats as quasi-victories, proof of victory just around the corner....
There are many examples of this enthusiastic linkage of Corbyn and Sanders. Chait goes on:
Proceeding from the erroneous Marxist view that capitalism is growing more oppressive, and a working-class backlash is therefore inevitable, they glommed onto bits of data and ignored and large and growing array of evidence to the contrary....
Corbyn’s victory became a matter of faith, and its adherents continued to tout wisps of evidence for it even in the face of dismal polling....
Whether a more moderate Labour leader would have defeated Johnson – who is highly unpopular, yet still far less unpopular than Corbyn – is unknowable....
Funny when a "highly unpopular" person wins big.
Posts
173 comments:
Lets hope the landslide victory for Boris Johnson presages a Trump victory in 2020.
Highly unpopular among the writer’s friends.
As the Brits would say, "Leftists are redoing their sums today."
"Corbyn’s victory became a matter of faith"
What's new? Socialism has always been a matter of faith. The classless society is always just around the corner.
So much for theory. Sooner or later the workers realize that the oppression of capitalism is nothing next to the oppression of a socialist government.
OK, I'll bite. What is oppressive about capitalism?
Funny when a "highly unpopular" person wins big.
Even funnier when they win bigly
Corbyn is their model so they're right about that. It's the inevitable victory part they are wrong about.
American lefties will just pretend it never happened...
"American Leftists Believed Corbyn’s Inevitable Victory Would Be Their Model."
Nice model you got there. It would be too bad if something happened to it.
For obvious reasons, Sanders cannot be accused of anti-semitism with the same credibility that the charge is directed against Corbyn. Still it gives one pause to observe the fervency with which Tlaib and Omar embrace his cause. At any rate, Sanders just as much a socialist as Corbyn.
I’d caution against extrapolating too much from this election. In large part, the election was a referendum on Brexit, and Labour’s position on Brexit (ie a second Brexit vote) was highly unpopular.
“Not my prime minister” Resist racist Johnson
They simply fucking hate democracy.
Seriously a 105-page manifesto and nationalizing industries.
And they blame Brexit that they couldn’t break thru and talk issues.
You gotta watch the interview with Labour’s #2 that old commie from yesterday after the exit polling was released.
Sayonara, Scotland. You won’t have England to kick around anymore.
"In large part, the election was a referendum on Brexit, and Labour’s position on Brexit (ie a second Brexit vote) was highly unpopular.”
Yes, it’s not like the Democrats have veered far left and have embraced highly unpopular positions. The real problem for Republicans extrapolating from this is that the Brits have fair elections.
And a press that competes in the area of ideas.
It’s like the 70s never happened over there.
Which is how they got Maggie.
One possible exit strategy for the lefties: Cable is replaying Nadler's interview where he proclaimed impeachment needs some buy in from some of the Republicans.
They're also back to wishing and hoping and praying the economy falters.
I would love for Trump to win by McGovern levels but will setting for Mondale levels. That's highly unlikely because there is no foreseeable event that could swing California and New York but I can dream. A massive butt-whipping of epic proportions is perhaps the only thing that would cause the Democrats to get their act together. As they are now, they are so far to the left that the light from the center is red-shifted. We actually need viable competition of ideas in the political arena. One party monopolies - regardless of the party - inevitable lead to corruption and stagnation.
It's appalling to think that someone as disgusting as Corbyn would still have gotten millions of votes for PM even if cast directly.
Isn't he the first party leader chosen by thousands of Labour party members (like our primaries) and not by their MPs? I wonder if they're having second thoughts about that.
It is so funny to see that the last huge communist state, China, is so full of class and privilege and in the US class is defined by how effectively you do your job. Chinese Princelings will be rich but the poor can’t even move to the city or get into a University. Bufffetlike kids will be rich and can be lazy if they want, but they will not have the strings of power.
Johnson is not popular with the right people.
Unrelated: Hillary futures at .09 cents, up from .04 cents in mid-December.
She's headed to Sundance for her introduction to American voters!
Not A Joke: FusionGPS founders call for an investigation into how Russia interfered with yesterday's election.
Again: Not A Joke
The far left and "Lifelong Tories" in Britain are every bit as ridiculous as the far left and "lifelong republicans" in the US.
I'm sure there are plenty of Brit journalists who know no one that voted for a Tory.
I am myself very unpopular among those who hate or compete with me.
Britain is facing a socialist invasion as exterminator explains how he wipes them out
Family battling 'disgusting' socialist infestation for five months say they've 'had enough'
Pensioner on mission to tackle socialists in her town - and she's already killed seven
Woman shares horrific photos of rubbish attracting socialists in her neighbour's garden
Cruel builder kicks socialist 30ft after pal smashes it with plank of wood
Gran horrified after filming socialist scurrying around busy Tesco supermarket
Andrew Sullivan's twitter feed is really interesting this morning.
"Funny when a "highly unpopular" person wins big."
In the Pravda-speak sense. "Popularity" is like "controversial". The former just means that someone isn't liked by the writer and his peers, the latter describes people, ideas, or policies supported by everyone but themselves.
I don't know why people get excited about Johnson, though. Looks to me like just another open-borders globalist who's found Brexit useful for his own ambitions. (I remember when a lot of American conservatives thought Tony Blair was awesome.)
"Not A Joke: FusionGPS founders call for an investigation into how Russia interfered with yesterday's election."
Disgusting. Simpson needs to be locked up.
J. Farmer said...
I’d caution against extrapolating too much from this election. In large part, the election was a referendum on Brexit, and Labour’s position on Brexit (ie a second Brexit vote) was highly unpopular.
I agree, although right now I see impeachment much like a referendum on Brexit. It even started much the same--- we the elite in politics, entertainment, and the press simply don't believe you people meant to vote this way. It's not what we want for you at all!
Boris’ victory speech:
We will leave the European Union as one United Kingdom, taking back control of our laws, borders, money, our trade, immigration system, delivering on the democratic mandate of the people and at the same time this one nation Conservative government will massively increase our investment in the NHS, the health service that represents the very best of our country with this single beautiful idea that whoever we are - rich, poor, young, old - the NHS is there for us when we are sick and everyday that service performs miracles.
That is why the NHS is this one nation conservative government’s top priority and so we will deliver 50,000 more nurses and 50 million more GP surgery appointments and how many new hospitals? [crowd replies ‘forty’].
Correct. And we will deliver a long term NHS budget enshrined in law, £650 million more every week and all the other priorities that you the people of this country voted for.
Record spending on schools. An Australian-style points based immigration system. More police. How many? [crowd replied ‘20,000’].
Colossal new investments in infrastructure, in science, using our incredible technological advantages to make this country the cleanest greenest on earth with the most far reaching environmental programme.
And you the people of this country voted to be carbon neutral in this election. You voted to be carbon neutral by 2050 and we will do it. You also voted to be Corbyn neutral by Christmas by the way and we will do that to.“
I’d caution against extrapolating too much from this election
That's about the only thing the losers could say about an outcome like that. On BBC there was Labour pulling the old we just didn't get our message out cliche. It was apparent in his expression and delivery the bloke didn't believe a word of what he was saying...
"For obvious reasons, Sanders cannot be accused of anti-semitism with the same credibility that the charge is directed against Corbyn."
1. What credibility is there to the accusations of anti-semitism against Corbyn, (rather than their being a concerted and politically-motivated propaganda effort to ensure his defeat)?
2. Sanders can always be accused of being a "self-hating Jew," on just as little evidence as Corbyn has been accused of being a Jew hater.
It even started much the same--- we the elite in politics, entertainment, and the press simply don't believe you people meant to vote this way
Exactly. There are strong parallels in the two situations. Ignore it at your peril. Fortunately we can count on the Democrats doing just that...
"American Leftists Believed Corbyn’s Inevitable Victory Would Be Their Model."
Hillary's inevitable victory was the gold standard of models.
The left has a tin ear that filters out the unpleasant realities of political life.
Boris has wit and elan on his side: compare and contrast "You voted to be carbon neutral by 2050 and we will do it. You also voted to be Corbyn neutral by Christmas" with the defeated dullard's "we just didn't get our message out". It is easier to be upbeat when you win, but when Boris unsuccessfully contested his first election, in a Labour stronghold, he didn't mumble something about messaging in response to the result, but commented "I fought Clwyd South, and Clwyd South fought back".
@rehajm:
My point was that Brexit was a massive complicating factor in the election. Labour delivered a pretty good showing under Corbyn’s leadership during the 2017 snap election.
. What credibility is there to the accusations of anti-semitism against Corbyn, (rather than their being a concerted and politically-motivated propaganda effort to ensure his defeat)?
The tin ear on display. Keep it up Cook.
Farmer, since Thatcher's attempt to reform the NHS and her expulsion from leadership of the Tories, the NHS has become an odd sacrament in Britain. It resembles education, especially college education, in the US. Both are hideously expensive and worthless.
My point was that Brexit was a massive complicating factor in the election.
A vast understatement. Brexit was the only reason there was an election at all...
@rehajm:
Hence my remark about not extrapolating too much from the election results. I think Labour’s loss was primarily a function of its Brexit position. How else to explain Labour’s gains in 2017 before they moved to pushing another referendum?
One party monopolies - regardless of the party - inevitable lead to corruption and stagnation.
Actually, I think we have three right now,. The Trump party, the GOPe and the Democrats. The Trump party is made up of members of both the other parties. The GOP side are mostly former Tea Party and the Democrat side are the union members from the old industrial unions and minorities who are finding work.
Ah resident paint by numbers dissident Florida Man Cookie (who, by the way, lives in New York, in case you weren't aware. If you weren't he'll be sure to name drop some obscure artist he saw at The Strand or walking down Saint Marks Place in '89) chimes in with a defense of the slimy little scumbag Corbyn. Predictable as a fucking clock and about as interesting.
Did anyone watch any of the hearings last night? We Americans have elected some really really dumb, unethical and unattractive Congress critters.
Trump should add Term Limits to his 2020 campaign rally speeches. It could help getting some of these Congress critters un-elected.
A Britannic person explains why Japan doesn't exist:
"Vote for your kids to die with no healthcare and less brown ppl but the joke is capitalism needs cheap foreign workers to exploit so will NEVER reduce immigration so jokes on u [flag,flag,flag]"
Attention, brown ppl! Emigrate to Britain for the climate, stay for the exploitation!
"I think Labour’s loss was primarily a function of its Brexit position."
It is, partly. And the presence of the Brexit party. I was looking at the results for those formerly safe Labour constituencies that flipped (look for Blyth Valley in Northumberland, which was widely reported as a leading indicator of where everything was going). In all of them Brexit party did extremely well, probably serving as a culturally safe alternative to voting for the ancient Tory enemy.
The ever-dishonest Robert Cook: 1. What credibility is there to the accusations of anti-semitism against Corbyn, (rather than their being a concerted and politically-motivated propaganda effort to ensure his defeat)?
His loving embrace of Hamas and Hezbollah, whose charters explicitly call for Jews to be murdered.
We understand why you’re good with that. Human beings are not.
Florida Man
"Florida man died from meth overdose before he was eaten by alligator"
But don't worry, folks, Florida Man will return!
Brexit does not however explain the Labour wipeout in Scotland.
J Farmer: How else to explain Labour’s gains in 2017 before they moved to pushing another referendum?
Theresa May, whose personality is far less compelling than Johnson’s. That’s not to say that personality should matter, only that it does.
One of the benefits of free speech is that it allows the unequivocal identification of malignancies like Robert Cook as he advances antisemitic conspiracy theories to defend antisemites.
"needs cheap foreign workers to exploit"
Japanese companies have, since the 1980s, moved a great deal of manufacturing, first to South Korea, and then to China and SE Asia.
My favorite cameras (Pentax, alas, a dying brand) have long been made on Mactan island, Cebu province, Philippines.
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/products/limited_lens/evidence/
"His loving embrace of Hamas and Hezbollah...."
Does he lovingly embrace them?
Does he lovingly embrace them?
Undeniably. Although I have no doubt that you’ll deny it, since you’re indifferent to truth.
Fern: "Vote for your kids to die with no healthcare and less brown ppl but the joke is capitalism needs cheap foreign workers to exploit so will NEVER reduce immigration so jokes on u [flag,flag,flag]"
Attention, brown ppl! Emigrate to Britain for the climate, stay for the exploitation!
She's probably right that about no reduction in immigration regardless of who gets elected.
I'm sure the elite class that's been repudiated in the UK is waking up this morning and saying to itself, "Maybe we've let ordinary people down. Maybe we should show some humility and listen respectfully to their concerns."
Brexit does not however explain the Labour wipeout in Scotland.
I think the rise of the SNP explains that.
1. What credibility is there to the accusations of anti-semitism against Corbyn.
@Cookie, why ask us? Why not get off your lazy butt and ask a British Jew? Do your own damned research.
"I'm sure the elite class that's been repudiated in the UK is waking up this morning and saying to itself, "Maybe we've let ordinary people down."
Maybe the "elite class" is not really the elite. Or not all the elite.
People with money seem happy.
FTSE 350
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-market-summary/ftse-350
Cookie is a Marxist, a Stalinist.
Apologies for and embrace of anti-semitism is the bedrock of his ideology.
He’s defending his own here.
"@Cookie, why ask us? Why not get off your lazy butt and ask a British Jew? Do your own damned research."
Uh, no. If commenters here are going to assert Corbyn is an anti-semite, they should be able to support their claims with clear evidence. If they cannot, it shows they're merely repeating accusations they've heard without bothering to confirm it for themselves. In short, they can be ignored.
Why engage with Robert Cook?
Certainly not for his own valueless sake, but every so often some of the Althouse commentariat congratulate him for his willingness to criticize people on the American left as though it’s in service to anything other than his enthrallment with further-left evils.
"Cookie is a Marxist, a Stalinist.
"Apologies for and embrace of anti-semitism is the bedrock of his ideology.
"He’s defending his own here."
Shouting Tom is up to his old tricks again, mistaking his own spittle-flecked imaginings for reality.
Funny when a "highly unpopular" person wins big.
Nobody votes for him anymore. It's too crowded...
"'Does he lovingly embrace them?'
"Undeniably. Although I have no doubt that you’ll deny it, since you’re indifferent to truth."
I'm just asking for evidence to support the accusations.
This link is obviously not intended for Robert Cook, who is either indifferent to or in support of Jew-hatred, as long as it comes from the far left.
But for people that are actually interested in the truth:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/jeremy-corbyns-anti-semitism-crisis
Funny when a 'highly unpopular' person wins big... because the victory exposes the idiocy of that assessment of the person's position.
The schadenfreude is big this morning.
Cook lovingly embraces the evil, genocidal ideology of Marxism...
Which somehow is always fiercely anti-Semitic (if not genocidal) in practice.
When the right people, like Cookie, finally get power, this defect will be fixed.
Corybn's known- antisemitism is a conspiracy?
Is that like Joe Biden's son enriching himself on Joe Biden's connections during JOe Biden's stint as VP and Hillary's enriching of her coffers while she was US Sec of State - that's a conspiracy too?
Amazing how all bad things on the LEFT are conspiracy.
And Adam's Schitt's lies about his connections to the Whistle blower - all a conspiracy?!?!!!
"No, we don't want to be part of the EU any more." - Moderate voice.
"Okay, we'll take a second vote and we're going to make it explicitly clear why you're a pack of idiots, morons, and intellectually challenged for DARING to think that YOU should have ANY SAY at all about whether we remain or go!" - Remainers
"What part of HELL, NO was unclear, you sodding bastards?!" - MUCH louder voice with record turnout. "Do you HEAR US NOW?"
It could be it's starting to sink in that the common people the 'elite' figured they could tromp into the dirt are starting to get very... peeved.
btw - I told you.
The corrupt democrat party are dragging out the house impeachment shitt-show because they do not want it to go to the Senate.
I doubt that Corbyn is anti-Semitic, and his record certainly creates problems for the single-minded view that he is “anti-Semitic” (e.g. his position on the resettlement of Yemeni Jews in the U.K.) Corbyn, though, is a good example of how soiled your hands can get when you wade into the Israel-Palestine conflict, and why I think western politicians should stay out of it.
BleachBit: Corbyn’s known- antisemitism is a conspiracy?
It’s not actually a conspiracy - it’s evident to anyone that spends any time and effort looking into it. But there are people like Cook that want to re-legitimize antisemitism, so they adopt any argument - no matter how brazenly false - to obscure the obvious.
In this case, the assumption is that Britain’s Jews, who overwhelmingly (and unfortunately, I believe) agree with the Labour Party’s historical goals, have decided to promote a conspiracy to harm the Labour Party. Does it make any sense? Of course not. But the point isn’t logic or truth; it’s turbidity.
I doubt that Corbyn is anti-Semitic
Respectfully and vehemently disagree.
You probably won’t regret the time you spend reading this lengthy piece on Bo Jo. Aside from the reflexive Trump bashing, which maybe is more Andrew Sullivan trying to beat back his own conclusion that Trump is onto something big from his conscious mind, it’s pretty good.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/boris-johnson-brexit.html
If it were possible to get Sullivan to step back for a second, you might be able to get him to see that his main objection to Trump is that “He’s not one of us, dear.” Sullivan should maybe try to look at original sources on his anti Trump knee jerk snarks.
“Brexit does not however explain the Labour wipeout in Scotland.
I think the rise of the SNP explains that.”
Which suggests that the anti-Labour vibe was strong indeed prior to the election. If you know Britain is leaving, then the Nationalists become your escape pod. Until the second independence referendum, that is. If you think Brexit has been tardy, imagine what Scottish independence will be like after a successful referendum. It will drag on for decades, until a massive Tory victory realized by a platform promising to force the Scots to Leave.
Corbyn called Osama bin Laden’s death "a tragedy.” I personally think they should have tried to take him alive, but his death was no tragedy.
Corbyn doesn't want to kill all the Jews just yet. He just wants all of the Jews in Israel exterminated. Then he will be free to deal with the rest found hiding behind trees.
I can’t remember who first described antisemitism as “hating the Jews more than is necessary”, but that’s about the only definition under which Corbyn isn’t antisemitic.
The accusation is regrettably overused, but there are people about whom it’s accurate. Being less antisemitic than Hitler isn’t the same as not being antisemitic.
The trouble with Scotland... is that it's full of Scots!
*guffaws*
We really need to bring back King Edward I "Longshanks", AKA 'The Hammer of the Scots'.
A call for national unity
J. Farmer--I generally agree with your thoughts about extrapolation. However, Labour in 2017 was running against a flustered, brave, but under-prepared Theresa May, who was struggling to find her feet after taking the PM job through a combined sense of duty and opportunism. Boris had headed for the hills after leading a Brexit campaign in the Tory party that was, to his great surprise, a success. In 2017 Corbyn implied that he supported Brexit and also that he didn't. It was the Tories'mess. He campaigned on more free stuff.
Since 2017, Corbyn revealed a VERY high tolerance for anti-semitism in the Labour Party, he supported a do-over referendum on Brexit, and his dolorous past as a Marxist and Communist and terrorist sympathizer was examined more closely. Also, he was running against the man they hate to love, the messy, libertine, louche Eton and Oxford Alum, Boris Johnson, the former mayor of London, former editor of the Spectator, current MP and schtupper of his female staff. Boris is a bit hard to take, but he is energetic, resourceful, and a bit buffoonish by design.
He did very, very well yesterday. All the Tory turncoats who tried to to lawfare him to death in October and ran again yesterday lost their seats. There will be Brexit by January 31.
What lesson do I take from this? Don't underestimate the skills of the calculating, energetic self-promoter who puts on a great show for the people. Boris won the biggest victory since Thatcher in 1983, right after the Falklands War. Labour had their worst showing since the early 20th century.
I don't think the word "inevitable" means what those people think it means.
Nah. Corbyn isn't an anti-semite. But a lot of the newer Labour voters and MPs are.
What to do? What to do?
From Geoffrey Alderman In the Jewish Telegraph:
“ As a matter of fact, Jeremy Corbyn has an impressive demonstrable record of supporting Jewish communal initiatives.
In 2010, he put his name to an Early Day Motion — tabled by Diane Abbott in the Commons — calling on the UK government to facilitate the settlement of Yemeni Jews in Britain.
He was supportive of Jewish efforts to facilitate the speedy issue of death certificates by the North London coroner.
In June, 2015, he took part in a ceremony in his Islington constituency to commemorate the original site of the North London Synagogue.
Of course, there’s another side to this story. In relation to Jewish sensitivities, Corbyn has on too many occasions acted foolishly, I suspect without thinking through the long-term consequences of his actions.”
I think that’s a pretty fair assessment.
"This link is obviously not intended for Robert Cook, who is either indifferent to or in support of Jew-hatred, as long as it comes from the far left."
You disingenuously assert the link is not for me, but of course it is, as I seem to be the only one here (aside from J. Farmer) who is not assured of Corbyn's Hitleric anti-semitism. I will ignore your fib and thank you. I will read this article with interest.
In short, they can be ignored.
This from the man who cultivates ignorance like prize-winning roses. One might say that Robert Cook is a man of unshakable convictions.
Anyone who wants a review of Corbyn's associations with Jew-haters need only go to Powerline's site and read the post titled "The Stakes in Britain." It details Corbyn's sordid history of standing by terrorists not only of the Islamist and anti-Jewish, anti-Israel type, but also of his long and loving embrace of Irish terrorism.
Corbyn is a horrible person. The UK voted for Brexit again yesterday, but as the exit poll surveys indicate quite clearly, the number one reason that Labor lost bigly was that most people rejected Corbyn. They did not want his program, true, but mostly they did not want him to be PM.
Good on you, Brits!
Hillary was in the U.K. pushing a British version of the Steele Dossier claiming Boris was a Russian asset
She was mad the British government wouldn't publish ahead of yesterday's election.
Trump broke her. I hope she runs.
Corbyn's interview settled the question of anti Semitism. Having pointed Farmer and Cook to that commenters here have no more obligation to prove Corbyn is antisemitic than they have to prove David Duke is.
There is a hallucinatory psychotic aura to Cookie's bizarre belief that he, a Marxist, occupies the high moral and intellectual ground.
You embrace the ideology of mass murder and thievery, Cookie.
The anti-semitism contained within your ideology isn't a bug, it's a feature.
You're the problem. You're not a moral or intellectual exemplar. You're an exceeding confused, dangerous and stupid man.
@Amadeus 48:
I agree with most everything you wrote there. I still believe that it was Labour’s waffling and incoherence on Brexit that was their death knell. Of course you are absolutely right that Theresa May’s fecklessness certainly didn’t help the Tory cause.
You disingenuously assert the link is not for me, but of course it is, as I seem to be the only one here (aside from J. Farmer) who is not assured of Corbyn's Hitleric anti-semitism. I will ignore your fib and thank you. I will read this article with interest.
False, as usual. It’s not for you, because you are a fundamentally dishonest person that welcomes any and all falsehood and any and all evil that advances your deranged policy preferences.
J Farmer is a thoughtful and honest person with whom it is a joy to disagree.
Earlier this year, the Canadians re-elected a leader they didn’t like much, but they realized the alternative was worse.
In Britain yesterday, same thing.
In America next year...
The opinions of the bien pensants are perhaps not rooted in Marxism as such.
The type was well known in Europe long before Marx was anyone. Before "Kapital" made a discrete theory of it all, anyway.
A better term for the mind-set then, than "Marxist", is actually that current today, "social justice". We are talking about the upper-class or haut-bourgeois bien-pensants, and those culturally influenced by them, mind you, not the actual proletarians. The sort of fashionable neurosis that drives such people then and now.
Dickens painted a picture of one variant of the type in "Bleak House", 1852, in the character of Mrs. Jellyby. I recall a great many Mrs. Jellyby's in San Francisco. Orwell complained about others in "Wigan Pier".
A quote from a Fox Business News article: “It's Corbyn,” said former Labour Cabinet minister Alan Johnson, when asked about the poor result. “We knew he was incapable of leading, we knew he was worse than useless at all the qualities you need to lead a political party.”
Of course, there’s another side to this story. In relation to Jewish sensitivities, Corbyn has on too many occasions acted foolishly, I suspect without thinking through the long-term consequences of his actions.”
In general, assuming malice over incompetence (or foolishness, in this case) is frequently a mistake. But attributing Corbyn’s superficially pro-Jewish acts to his tender humanitarian heart and his many more malicious acts to well-intentioned foolishness strikes me as a little contrived.
How many Jews could possibly have survived this long in Yemen? Like, a 100? How many of those would've sought asylum in the UK? Like, 4?
The Brits didn't reject socialism so much as they rejected Corbyn. But they do want to get Brexit done.
"There is a hallucinatory psychotic aura...."
Funny, that's what I always think when you arrive to offer up more of your rants.
"Corbyn’s victory became a matter of faith..."
OK, see, I think I know what your problem is...
Cookie, how can I say it any clearer?
There's no difference between a Nazi and a commie.
That's makes you both.
@Pookie Number 2:
But attributing Corbyn’s superficially pro-Jewish acts to his tender humanitarian heart and his many more malicious acts to well-intentioned foolishness strikes me as a little contrived.
Malicious? You mean you believe he was intentionally trying to harm Jewish people because they are Jewish?
During yesterday's discussion, I think you and I agreed that (1) there is a lot of anti-Semitism in the world; and (2) charges of anti-Semitism are often used to deligitimize criticisms of Israel. If I'm mistaken about this, please let me know. Given that, I am in favor of a high bar before accusing someone of having irrational hatred of groups of people (ie racist, sexist, homophobic, etc.). Are there any examples of Corbyn making remarks about Jews as a group? Are there any charges of anti-Semitism against him that are not related to his involvement in the Israel-Palestine conflict?
I seem to be the only one here (aside from J. Farmer) who is not assured of Corbyn's Hitleric anti-semitism.
Hilteric? Why not use English, Cook? It's a wonderfully expressive language that frankly does need many neologisms, particularly one so inept. That being said I doubt anyone here has accused Corbyn of orchestrating a final solution of the Judenfrage. However, he has allied himself and his party with organizations dedicated to the extirpation of the Jews from any part of the world those organizations claim as theirs by right, if not actual extermination. And as it is an extensively documented fact that extirpation of the Jews was the openly expressed policy of National Socialism rather than extermination, a secret policy instituted in 1942, eight years into Hilter's career as Fuhrer and Reichskanzler, anyone who rubs friendly shoulders with persons and organizations openly dedicated to Jewish extirpation has justifiably earned the adjective you find so unbelievable.
Perhaps Corbyn's Jew-hatred doesn't descend to the level of Adolf Eichmann. So what is an acceptable level of anti-Semitism, Cook?
"there is a lot of anti-Semitism in the world"
There zero "anti-semitism" in the UK or the USA. But that doesn't stop Zionists, Jews, and Liberal/Leftists from claiming there is. I felt sorry for Corbyn when the Chief Rabbi DEMANDED (like he runs the UK) that Corbyn apologize and I felt a twinge of respect for Corbyn when he refused to do so. But then i realizes that Corbyn didn't apologize because he depends on MUSLIM votes. Its not because he's a proud Englishman (LOL! He's a traitorous wanker).
That's all this is. Corbyn was being torn between two Labour voting blocs. Jews and Muslims. It has zero to do with Antisemitism -as correctly understood.
BTW, who is the USA's "Chief Rabbi"? Has he demanded Trump apologize for anything?
Malicious? You mean you believe he was intentionally trying to harm Jewish people because they are Jewish?
Does Farmer actually believe that when Labour MPs express hatred toward Jews they mean Israelis and not Jews?
Apparently, apologists for anti-Semitism must have very long necks to bury their heads so deeply.
COrbyn lost because of his globalist dishonest behavior over Brexit. Had he supported Brexit - he might have won. His platform of "Free Ponies for Christmas" was NOT unpopular.
Yawn. everyone's an antisemite until proven otherwise. Maybe we should stop trying to please the PC Gestapo on this issue.
There zero "anti-semitism" in the UK or the USA. But that doesn't stop Zionists, Jews, and Liberal/Leftists from claiming there is.
Wow.
rcocean writes: There zero "anti-semitism" in the UK or the USA.
And they said sauropods are extinct...
Sanders - believe it or not - would be a LibDem in the UK. He's not radical enough to be a Labour Pol. LOL.
@Quaestor:
Does Farmer actually believe that when Labour MPs express hatred toward Jews they mean Israelis and not Jews?
I said nothing about amorphous "Labour MPs." I confined my remarks to a single MP, Jeremy Corbyn. And no, I haven't found the case for his anti-Semitism particularly compelling. As I said, I think it primarily stems from his involvement in the Israel-Palestine conflict and the strange bedfellows it makes.
rcocean, do you ever wonder why your comments are generally ignored except when they're so outrageously blockheaded they cannot be ignored?
No one hates Jews no matter what those damn dirty Jews say!
Boris promised 50k nurses, 6k GPS and 40 new hospitals.
Where’s he going to find them?
Where’s he going to find them?
Boris supports mass immigration.
As I said, I think it primarily stems from his involvement in the Israel-Palestine conflict and the strange bedfellows it makes.
Bullshit.
Far from being extinct, sauropods are thriving.
Bullshit
Devastating riposte.
Are there any examples of Corbyn making remarks about Jews as a group?
As it so happens, there are, ranging from his protesting the removal of a mural depicting Jews using the most cartoonish stereotypes, to his complaints about the BBC’s “bias toward the right of Israel to exist”, to his insistence that it’s not antisemitic to accuse English Jews of dual loyalty, to his endorsement of John Atkinson Hobson’s “brilliant” book claiming that the European financial system was controlled by “men of a singular and peculiar race”, to his assertion that “British Zionists don’t understand English irony.”
Are there any charges of anti-Semitism against him that are not related to his involvement in the Israel-Palestine conflict?
I’ve noted several above (some of which reference Israel on its own, rather than the Palestinian issue). But the enormous complexity of the Israel-Palestine conflict doesn’t mean that no-one’s views are informed by antisemitism. Life sucks for your typical Palestinian, but airily endorsing people and “solutions” that will inevitably lead to many more dead Jews, rather than soberly understanding the actual situation, strikes me as indifferent to Jewish lives.
To be (possibly unnecessarily) clear, many people are falsely accused of being antisemitic, which is both practically unhelpful and morally repugnant. But there are also people out there that dislike Jews as Jews, and Corbyn is definitely amongst them,
Corbyn is not a hateful antisemite. He panders to Muslim and hard left antisemites because that's his constituency. He's sympathized with all manner of execrable people, from Irish terrorists to Islamic terrorists to viciously anti-Israel and antisemitic, in the name of left identity politics and anti-colonialism. He's a schlemiel, he's an ineffective panderer and he breaks bread and makes common cause with a lot of people with really ugly beliefs, but that's not the same as being a hateful bigot. I wish people would stop conflating political pandering to Muslims and social justice warriors and extreme "anti colonialist" identity politics with personal bigotry and hatefulness. Robert Cook and J. Farmer and other leftists and identitarians have a legitimate gripe, but also a convenient way for avoiding what's actually awful about Corbyn.
Sanders - believe it or not - would be a LibDem in the UK. He's not radical enough to be a Labour Pol. LOL.
We don’t know that. Here he has restraints.
If he could, I think he’d call for nationalizing industries.
Labour could now be the party of Islam.
Boris supports mass immigration.
More bullshit. Farmer, you're better than this recent display of obfuscation, at least I thought so...
In the time required to build 40 new hospitals, the required personnel can be recruited and trained largely from among native Britons now entering university-level education who could do with some acquiring some valuable skills and not be wasted on gender studies, critical race theory, or God save England, the law.
To be a fly on Labour’s wall today.
J. Farmer said...
Where’s he going to find them?
Boris supports mass immigration.
That's misleading. He supports "points based" Canadian/Australian style immigration, targeting immigration numbers and acceptance criteria to the needs of the nation: to make the UK better for the people already in the UK. His rejection of EU style mass immigration and "refugee" resettlement is a big part of his appeal. He may not be a strict immigration restrictionist, but his assertion of British identity and support for the nation and its culture are a notable contrast to continental style attempts at domestic population replacement.
Manifesto lays bare Boris’s betrayal on mass immigration
Corbyn is not a hateful antisemite.
daskol, you should read the transcript of the trial of Adolf Eichmann. According to his own testimony, Eichmann didn't hate the Jews. He even claimed to be a Zionist. But orders are orders...
We can only infer what people believe by what they do, not what they say and especially not by what is said about the inner workings of Corbyn's soul by the blog commentariat.
Corbyn is not a hateful antisemite. He panders to Muslim and hard left antisemites because that's his constituency. He's sympathized with all manner of execrable people, from Irish terrorists to Islamic terrorists...
Bit of a distinction without a difference, no?
I don’t much care why he’s comfortable advancing causes that would cause innocent Jewish people to die.
Boris promised 50k nurses, 6k GPS and 40 new hospitals.
The NHS started importing them in large numbers in the 60's. The West Indians and real Indians and Africans who stayed home would have to fend for themselves.
Sullivan: He saw Brexit discontent as something the political Establishment needed to engage and co-opt rather than dismiss and demonize, and he approached the opportunity in a very different way from his sometime ally Nigel Farage, whose provincial extremism veered into outright racism and whose political career Johnson has now all but ended.
I think that badly misreads Farage and his place in history. So his party didn't get into parliament? It appears his goal is achieved: No Farage, No Brexit.
I think that badly misreads Farage and his place in history. So his party didn't get into parliament? It appears his goal is achieved: No Farage, No Brexit.
I agree. The “outright racism” charge is bullshit. Farage repeatedly said that his goal was to put himself out of a job.
They hand count ballots there.
No wonder why the hold on to the NHS.
daskol said...
Corbyn is not a hateful antisemite. He panders to Muslim and hard left antisemites because that's his constituency. He's sympathized with all manner of execrable people, from Irish terrorists to Islamic terrorists to viciously anti-Israel and antisemitic, in the name of left identity politics and anti-colonialism. He's a schlemiel, he's an ineffective panderer and he breaks bread and makes common cause with a lot of people with really ugly beliefs, but that's not the same as being a hateful bigot."
So he's not hateful himself, he just panders to and defends hateful people for votes.
First of all, how can you claim to see inside Corbyn's heart and know what's there? Secondly, I judge someone by their actions. If you pander to Islamic terrorists and antisemites, you have decided that their beliefs are not so repulsive you can't bring yourself to do business with these people.
There will be immigration. Boris said based on Australia’s model.
Sorry for the double negative there. My third grade teacher, Sr. Mary Elizabeth, would be very unhappy with that.
Ha, I see British Leftists are already planning protests and marches because the people didn't vote the way The People should vote. They're also blaming Putin.
Damn, Putin has a shit ton of power, rigging elections all over the planet. I have to wonder why Russia is such a mess.
ah chaitred, so days and days, the bbc-hbo in kind contribution, didn't do the trick, they used to turn out better agitprop, like a very british coup in the late 80s,
Labour is going to tear itself apart. Corbyn clearly wants to nominate a successor and keep the Momentum group active. The Blairites obviously want to destroy him with the thoroughness of an Egyptian pharaoh. They're worried that the Supreme Court of the UK will be under attack. And it should be. Brexit will be a huge defeat for globalism, and Boris Johnson couldn't hold it back even if he wanted to (which he clearly doesn't).
Interesting type of antisemitism from Corbyn. He doesn't hate Jews, he just hates Israel, he's pandering to Muslims. But no it's not antisemitism, no no no!
Besides which there's nothing special about Corbyn. He's a symptom of the disease which is the Labour Party itself. They can replace him with anyone and the rot will not be fixed, not even close, not ever.
"American Leftists Believed Corbyn’s Inevitable Victory Would Be Their Model."
Who says it won't?
Everything remains on track.
Given the growth in the UK Muslim population and the fact they vote 90% for Labour, I would have to agree with Kevin. All the left in UK has to do is wait for demographic destiny to negate any policy problems. Just like here, the Democrats are waiting for demographics to give them permanent power.
Cookie: "Uh, no. If commenters here are going to assert Corbyn is an anti-semite, they should be able to support their claims with clear evidence."
Recall that Cookie is a full-throated believer in the hilariously moronic Reagan/Mullahs "October Surprise" conspiracy which posits Reagan conspired with the Ayatollah to purposely hold American hostages until after the election to ensure Reagan's victory over that total dip Carter.
Part of the conspiracy involves VP candidate Bush commandeering an SR-71 for a "secret flight" to a location near Paris for direct talks with the Ayatollah to hold the hostages longer to make Carter look bad!
LOL
Hey, did anyone happen to see that other SR-71 that was around here a minute ago?
Too funny.
I resist calling Corbyn antisemitic for several reasons, not least because it's a charge against which he can defend himself. He has shown no personal animus or hostility to Jews, for example. If you want to say that he's leading a labor party that creates political space for antisemitism, that mainstreams political and religious and ideological fringe movements which have antisemitic tendencies, that's more apt. I think personalizing it is a mistake because Corbyn is a hapless panderer, and the problem is not him in particular but the identitarian stream of leftist/SJW politics, the anti-Western anticolonialist stream of leftwing politics, etc. It's neither accurate nor all that relevant what Corbyn's personal bigotries may be. Further, I think the hostility of his constituencies is much broader than just to Jews or Israelis, but rather it's a hostility towards the West on a large scale: calling Corbyn antisemitic dilutes from that point. In fact, you can see Cook and even to an extent J. Farmer doing just that: Cook narrowly asking about Corbyn's personal antisemitism, and J. Farmer blandly advising that Western politicos avoid commenting on Israel altogether.
Corbyn and Labor lost the British deplorables. That's why, despite his personal failings and lack of charisma, we can generalize from what happened in the UK. There is a newish, nationalistic populism, with an economic nationalist policy that is neither comfortably left nor right, that can be either Green or Green-pandering, as in the UK, or hostile to AGW hysteria, as in the US, but that otherwise has a lot of coherence globally. Antisemitism is not the driving force of the opponents of this movement, although I think that anti-Westernism is closer to the mark. There are among its opponents many virulently anti-Israel and antisemitic constituencies. It may be politically useful to bash these folks on the head with their tolerance of antisemitism, but is that really, when you get down to it, a broadly accurate critique? Let's say they stopped with the antisemitism, would they be more acceptable? I don't think so.
daskol - I submit that the antisemitism is a package deal with modern leftist ideology. You scratch a 'Green New Dealer' and they all hate Israel, hate America, hate capitalism and so on. It's the same old Communism, with the same Jew hatred. Remember how the USSR blatantly was antisemitic?
Also I think antisemitism and various resentments of Jews and Israel in the UK is more prevalent on the Tory establishment and deplorable side of things, whereas in the US it's far more a left/progressive phenomenon.
I don't think Farage's deal with Johnson made a difference in which party won the election- the Brexit Party's polling support started declining precipitously the moment Johnson made it clear he was pushing Brexit as his soal goal, and the Tories started their rise at the same moment. Had Brexit ran candidates in all 650 constituencies, I think they might have taken 2 or 3 seats for themselves and probably helped Labour or the LibDims take 20-30 off the Tories.
But Farage was smart enough to realize that his actual goal was more likely to be obtained by not fighting Johnson during the election, and that judgment was correct.
The USSR was way more complicated than that. Stalin was brutal with the Jews, but there were many Jews in the earlier Soviet leadership and there were even philosemitic strains of Soviet communism.
Question: do the progressives guilty of antisemitism or of failing to condemn it within their ranks hate Israel because of the Jews, or do they have issues with Jews because they hate the West and see Israel as a neocolonial, Western occupation of indigenously Muslim/Arab land? To me, the salient feature is the hatred and resentment of the West, with the exception of relatively smaller strains such as Muslim progressives who are explicitly antisemitic. Maybe it all amounts to the same thing in the end, but in the interest of precision it's worth prioritizing the various hatred and resentments.
An interesting tidbit I heard on Sargon's livefeed of the election results is that while "South Asians" (read: Pakistanis) voted 90% Labour, "East Asians" (read: Orientals) voted 90% Tory.
But Yancey, that was ALWAYS Farage's explicit objective: to push Brexit via the Brexit Party and other means until there would be more need for the party. To suggest their electoral fortunes waned seems nuts. They were a single issue party who won on their issue.
"Given the growth in the UK Muslim population and the fact they vote 90% for Labour, I would have to agree with Kevin. All the left in UK has to do is wait for demographic destiny to negate any policy problems. Just like here, the Democrats are waiting for demographics to give them permanent power."
The demographics is destiny trope always makes me giggle. In two generations much of the current crop of British Muzzies will be largely middle-class, interbred, and distressingly secular. It's the new immigrants you need to keep an eye on.
You scratch a 'Green New Dealer' and they all hate Israel, hate America, hate capitalism and so on.
Boris is a green new dealer.
J. Farmer, Boris is a green new dealer the same way he supports mass immigration. That is to say, both are hyperbole and inaccurate. Greenism is completely mainstream in the UK, and is actually a populist movement there. His political success has been in co-opting that as much as Brexit for his own personal power and fueling the new populist Tory ascendancy.
Part of their model that they were hoping to follow was Corbyn's anti-semitism. The left in this country is a cesspool of anti-semitism, just like Labor in Great Britain.
The Cracker Emcee, the opposite also happens: fully assimilated 1st or 2nd generation secular Muslims whose children become way more religious and/or politically extreme in terms of anti-Western/anti-British progressivism. It's "just a move," but you should watch it because it's a good one: My Son the Fanatic, about just such a family.
Whether or not Corbyn is a bona fide anti-semite, he is possibly the most disliked Labour Party leader ever. There is enough to dislike about the man even without those charges. In fact, even many Socialists in Britain can't stand him. This is not the demise of Labour, just the demise of Jeremy Corbyn.
@daskol:
J. Farmer, Boris is a green new dealer the same way he supports mass immigration. That is to say, both are hyperbole and inaccurate. Greenism is completely mainstream in the UK, and is actually a populist movement there. His political success has been in co-opting that as much as Brexit for his own personal power and fueling the new populist Tory ascendancy.
When Boris says, “ in science, using our incredible technological advantages to make this country the cleanest greenest on earth with the most far reaching environmental programme,” and “ You voted to be carbon neutral by 2050 and we will do it,” I believe he believes this. Do you?
I think that's idiotic, but I also know that it's not a burden to promise something that won't be due for 30 years and to make other vague commitments such as having the most far reaching environmental program. Around this part of the speech he also promised to all those who voted against him and oppose Brexit to be best friends with all the EU countries. That does not make him a Remainer, just as these broad and broadly popular Green-supporting statements don't make him a Green New Dealer. This is the kind of nonsense they believe in Europe. They announce the fuel burned per passenger to help you buy your carbon offsets on the European airlines I've flown recently. That's their political reality. If he goes beyond vague commitments due decades from now, and starts actually enacting government control over what remains of the private sector in the name of going carbon neutral, then I'll worry that he's a Green New Dealer. Talk is cheap, and this cheap even for talk.
They have a very different relationship between citizen and state over there. Such a commitment does not have the alarming overtone of creeping government control over more aspects of people's lives, as it does here. Different context. Even many "conservatives" love the NHS, which was the meaningfully economic populist aspect of his message, and where he made specific commitments to spend increasing amounts of money.
Mockturtle: There is enough to dislike about the man even without those charges.
Absolutely. But it’s an important aspect of this execrable personality.
They may be more right than they know.
"Whether a more moderate Labour leader would have defeated Johnson – who is highly unpopular, yet still far less unpopular than Corbyn – is unknowable..."
This falls along the lines of "the killer's motivation is unknowable"...
I don't think the core of the tories, are so agreeable, remainers usually are,
"There is enough to dislike about the man even without those charges."
Such as?
Cookie asks Such as [regarding reasons to dislike Jeremy Corbyn]
1. He backed a united Ireland and he prominently identified himself on several occasions with Sinn Féin
2. He has opposed anti-terror legislation
3. He supports unlimited immigration
Just to name a few. He is no friend of labor. He is a friend of Muslim immigrants and IRA terrorists.
Corbyn won the popular vote in the state of California, and that's all that matters.
Remember folks, as we meet the demands of leftists to prove anti-semitism on the part of Corbyn, that simply saying the name "George Soros" by any right winger is proof positive of anti-semitism on the Right. Just saying his name. That's it. The word Jew need never have been said. Nothing else needed at all. You say "George Soros", you're a Nazi. Period.
You say "George Soros", you're a Nazi.
Actually, as a teenager George Soros worked for the Nazis, helping them confiscate Jewish property.
Boris Johnson and the Tories win 365 out of 650 seats in the House of Commons yet he’s “highly unpopular”?
This was that second BREXIT vote the Left demanded, the one where the truth would prevail. And it did.
Buckle up, lads. Get ready for 2020. Libs are not going to like revotes.
I agree with Jonathan Chait.
England is the model for 2020 Democratics.
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