I went looking to see if anyone was comparing the reaction to Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman — the Democrats' witness — to Oliver North — the Republicans’ witness from the Reagan Era. And yes, I did find this, "What to wear? Republicans flag Vindman's sartorial choice/As military officers do, the Army lieutenant colonel testified in his dress uniform: a column in Roll Call."
“Lt. Col. Vindman, I see you wearing your dress uniform,” said [Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah], who is himself a retired Air Force major. “Knowing that’s not the uniform of the day and you’d normally wear a suit to the White House, I think it’s a great reminder of your military service.”That's just about whether it was proper for Vindman to dress like that for the hearing. What I'm interested in is how people react to the uniform. I remember the Oliver North performance very well because I listened to the first part of it on the radio and it didn't seem that special. Then there was a break in the hearing and the commentators were highly excited over the big impression North was making. I switched to television, and what a difference! The visual of the man was so compelling, so entrancing. What the hell?!
Rep. Scott Perry, R-Texas, suggested that it was only appropriate for Vindman to appear in uniform if he wears it daily during his work at the NSC, but if he didn’t, he shouldn’t wear it while testifying. “When you’re wearing the uniform testifying, that testimony is then linked to the United States military, good or bad,” Perry told CQ Roll Call during a break in Tuesday’s hearing....
Military officials routinely testify before Congress in their uniforms. The military chiefs, for instance, make the rounds on Capitol Hill to defend their budget requests each year with four stars upon each shoulder. It’s also worth noting that Lt. Col. Oliver North, who like Vindman was staffed to the National Security Council, wore his uniform while testifying during the Iran-Contra hearings in 1987.
It was such a striking demonstration of the overriding power of the visual world and the emotional component of reason. So I make it a point to observe my responses to try to bring the mysterious undercurrent to the surface.
With North, it was not just the uniform, it was also the expressive and handsome face — the commitment and earnestness that flowed out at us. Fortunately for those of us hoping to hang onto our powers of reason and judgment, Vindman is an ordinary looking man with a bland demeanor.
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198 comments:
I'm not so concerned about Comrade Vindy's uniform - it's the sordid flabbiness of an Army Officer that alarms me.
With North, it was not just the uniform, it was also the expressive and handsome face — the commitment and earnestness that flowed out at us. Fortunately for those of us hoping to hang onto our powers of reason and judgment, Vindman is an ordinary looking man with a bland demeanor.
I would not call Vindman bland. He strikes me as an insufferable little prig.
Both North and Vindman manipulated impressions by wearing their uniforms as they had the right to do. However, North came across as a man with personality and passion. Vindman comes across a a weasel.
Just going strictly on looks alone, Oliver North seems more traditionally handsome in that image when juxtaposed against Vindman's more doughy look.
Following up on the first several comments, they are both 44 years old in those pictures.
It helps that the Marine uniforms are so good.
If Vindman were in the Air Force he would be better off to wear a standard suit. IMHO.
Here's where I've seen Vindman before
Ace calls him Lt Col. Bearclaw because he's overweight and kinda looks like Newman from Seinfeld.
Example:
Lieutenant Colonel Bearclaw, who was awarded the Silver Spoon (with Honey-Nut Cluster) and is a founding member of the Interservice Clean Plate Club, admits he freely made up parts of the transcript for the Trump-Zelensky call, supposedly in the interest of furthering Consensus DC Foreign Policy or something.
Regarding the uniform.
A lot of military and ex-military regard some current military and some ex-military as 'stealing valor' by abusing the uniform. Yes, it can be abused, like it is being abused here. The Democrats planned this also because they understand, as Ann alluded to, its visual power and respect American's naturally have for it.
I saw this all the time. These guys running out their Class As every chance they get because they understood this power even when it was completely and totally inappropriate. Worse, there were a lot of times overseas that these guys would run around everywhere in BDUs or - under strict OPSEC in a potentially high-threat posting - would find some way of indicating they were a servicemember off base. Totally inappropriate.
This POS gives everyone a bad name. Even dudes he served with during Ranger Challenge years ago are saying it. He was a scumbag then and he's a scumbag now, he's just a scumbag in uniform.
So no, don't be overly 'awed' by the uniform ladies and gents. Not everyone who wears is either in or out is a standup guy. Character is still the important factor. And this guy's got as much character as a jelly donut.
What I remember is all the coverage of Fawn Hall. As if leggy blonde secretaries were some exotic species in D.C. or something.
Vindman looks a bit....doughy.
Big difference, Colonel North was not wearing his dress uniform as Mr. Vindman did. His dress blues would have been silly in that setting, while his service uniform was appropriate.
Was Vindman appearing as a representative of the Army? Otherwise, what's the point of the uniform?
It shocked me that he had been offered to be the head of the Ukraine armed forces not just once, but three times.
Seems like a bribe, now that "bribe" is everywhere.
Apparently, he behaved in such a fashion that Ukraine believed he would accept the bribe.
A terrible witness who quite obviously was the leaker to the Not Really Whistleblower.
Unfair, but I was thinking Flounder, without the humility and sweetness.
DC will do that to ya.
North wore his regular uniform. Vindman is wearing his dress uniform. One is over the top. One is not. North is a hero with Silver and Bronze Stars and two Purple Hearts. Vindman was a roadside casualty with a Purple Heart.
I do not disparage Vindman’s Service, but he and North are not comparable in any way. North was a patriot serving his CinC. Vindman is something else entirely.
Lieutenant Colonel Kent Dorfman couldn’t do ten pushups if his life depended on it....
Vindman walks into hearing - "I'm here to rescue you! I'm with the resistance!" Republicans: "Aren't you a little fat to be in the army?"
North served his Commander-In-Chief, but Vindman tried to overrule his.
North is in Class A. If he wore dress whites or blues, the libs in the mas would have anurysum
Vindman has a portly swag that North lacked. Not a good look in uniform.
Our Beloved Professor Althouse said...
With North, it was not just the uniform, it was also the expressive and handsome face — the commitment and earnestness that flowed out at us. Fortunately for those of us hoping to hang onto our powers of reason and judgment, Vindman is an ordinary looking man with a bland demeanor.
serious question?
Can Anybody, Anywhere, think of a more polar opposite to Ollie North's military looks, than Lt Col Beaker ?
in my teenage years, the supply line for the resistance, ran through my hometown.
If Vindman feels compelled to remind the country that he's a Military Man(up to the point of pulling a Barbara Boxer), then someone in the flaccid military hierarchy needs to remind Vindman that he's also subject to the UCMJ.
Lt Col Kent Dorfman is priceless.
"Lieutenant Colonel Kent Dorfman"
LMAO snarfed my skittles on that one! Funny because it's true.
it's the sordid flabbiness of an Army Officer that alarms me.
if you believe his shoulder, he Not Only passed Basic Jump School; but made it through Ranger School
Can we agree, that Lt Col (ret.) Beaker is NO LONGER an active duty officer; and therefore, Has NO BUSINESS wearing a uniform*?
wearing a uniform* I suppose, he's like those old civil war vets, that wore their old uniforms to revisit the battlefields in the 1920's newsreels... Except they seemed to be in much better shape
Vindman was a Ranger? In his dreams. Take the uniform off this guy and he's just another schlub in a gray suit that you bury deep in the backroom doing grunt clerical work.
There are places for backroom boys in organizations. Harry Reid (another backstabbing weasel) was kept out of sight in the Democrat Senate group for years. He was good at counting the spoons and the votes. But it was not a good look for the Democrat party when Harry rose to leader of the Democrat Senate Majority/Minority. The damage he did to long standing Senate rules and traditions was incalculable. Well maybe you could calculate part of it as you see how Mitch McConnell has been busily transforming the Federal judiciary.
For those unfamiliar with the various uniforms of the USMC. North was wearing what is called Winter Service Alpha with ribbons and medals. That would be the standard uniform for officers at off base official/business occasions during the winter dress season. North was not wearing Dress Blues which is the normal ceremonial dress during the winter season and would be the equivalent to what Vindman was wearing. Dress blues are rarely worn during normal duties other than by embassy and guard duty personnel. Vindman was incorrectly dressed for a ceremonial occasion while partaking in "business". As was noted his normal business attire is a suit. I have no idea what the Army's dress code is regarding what Vindman wore, but I suspect that in one way or another he could have been found to violate it.
he was once, but the stroganoff noodles, seem to have had their effect,
One of the Republicans on the committee should straight up ask him what, if anything, he was told by Neidermeyer, whether or not Neidermeyer is the whistleblower, and if Neidermeyer gave him bad-touch as a way to shut him up over various funds funneled to him by Burisma.
That silver helmet had to be expensive. All LC Dorfman wanted was a taste. Just a taste would do.
North looked like the typical colonel of the time, as I saw it, the generation that stayed ungodly thin and fit. That style was coming in and the old fat time-server model was going out.
This guy is def old school. And also not active military.
"Big difference, Colonel North was not wearing his dress uniform as Mr. Vindman did. His dress blues would have been silly in that setting, while his service uniform was appropriate."
Vindman is a douche, but he is not wearing the Dress Blue uniform.
The Blue Uniform or ASU is the current Service Uniform from 2010 or so until it's recent replacement by the new WW2 style green one. 2028 is the current obsolete date of the blue ASU.
The Congresspeople and some posters are showing their ages.
When the Army Service Uniform (day to day wear) was "Greens", the traditional "Dress Blues" Was that, a formal uniform.
Since 2008 the Greens have been gone and an updated Blue uniform has been the ASU
it is the work uniform for an office. I have no idea whether NSC staff work in civies or Blues. I expect Blues.
The Army is bringing back what the WWII era called "pinks and greens" A brown uniform somewhat like the Marine set that North wore.
At that point, North and Vindman would be dress very much alike.
But, yea for a Ranger course grad, he is a bit of a fat body.
Neidermeyer was a parody of the prototipical Republican ROTC cuck
Trump could murder Vindman on Fifth Ave by ordering him to drop and give Trump 50.
it's the sordid flabbiness of an Army Officer that alarms me
Moral, physical, psychological, social, or disciplinary flabbiness? He's a Major Burns kind of guy. apparently.
I met plenty of officers with ranger tabs and a dad bod when I was in. Graduating Ranger School when you're 23-24 doesn't suddenly make you thin for life. He's a middle-aged guy who spends his days behind a desk.
the dems who like jim hines were sandalista supporters, along with f chuck's boss chuck todd, blocked support to the resistance,
From a Navy perspective, Army uniforms seem a bit cluttered. But the Navy offers less scope for earning merit badges.
Colonel Butterball does not make a good visual impression. Even less persuasive is his need to feel and be perceived as an important man.
Lawyers wear uniforms too. A wellfit blue suit, a white dress shirt and an elegant tie with expensive shoes. That is the Office Uniform to impress the new client that he is getting a successful lawyer.
But the uniform for the courtroom is our one rumpled old sport coat that is too big, and wrinkled slacks with plain black old shoes.That is to impress the male Jurors this lawyer is not a threat to one up them with the female jurors.
It's all a visible pre-persuasion that rational argument cannot reverse. First impressions are permanent for the duration of a trial.
My husband and I were both Army officers. The uniform LTC Vindman was wearing is not his dress uniform, but is the current Army Service uniform (which will soon be replaced by greens, sort of like the Marine uniform). I don't see a problem with Vindman wearing his service uniform to the hearings - it is the military equivalent of wearing a business suit. I do have a problem with his arrogant comment to be addressed as Lieutenant Colonel Vindman when Rep. Nunes called him Mr. Vindman. Nunes is a civilian and is not required to address him by his proper rank. By wearing his Army uniform, he is representing the Army and should act professional and respectful when testifying in Congress. All he showed yesterday is that he is a disrespectful partisan jerk.
Himes... Kerry... Ted Kennedy... Sanders... what is it about New England that makes some give aid and comfort to America's enemies?
Howard is a parody of the prototypical brainless stooge. Are you a pedo Howard? Why would you belong to a political philosophy that sexualizes kids? Seems like something pedo would do...
As the Economist magazine so elegantly put it in the title to their story about Oliver North's testimony;
Is Magnetic North True North?
Vindman's hapless early years... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Dy2fo6E_pI
Blogger Howard said...
Neidermeyer was a parody of the prototipical Republican ROTC cuck
Says Howard who would never go near ROTC or the military except, perhaps to spit on a returning Vietnam vet. "Animal House" was written by guys like you, Howard, with beards and sandals.
a look back,
https://www.wsj.com/articles/morales-made-bolivia-a-narco-state-11574018858
who defends morales today, sanders and ocasio cortez, along with sputnik news,
It's one thing to wear your service uniform and look like you still could drop and do pushups until someone said "enough", than to look like you could only push up a donut to your mouth.
now f chuck comes from kendall, that's a burg just south of Miami, too remote to be featured in burn notice,
Oliver North is a scumbag who perjured himself before Congress about illegal deeds he did for the Reagan administration. His uniform didn't hide that reality from anyone not bedazzled by military regalia.
Some Seppo said...
Trump could murder Vindman on Fifth Ave by ordering him to drop and give Trump 50.
Or vice versa.
Says Howard who would never go near ROTC or the military except, perhaps to spit on a returning Vietnam vet.
IIRC Howard is a Marine, and he's fucking with us.
but he should have been more aware then to join red harkin's staff, then again he didn't even finish his degree, harkin who had a resume inflation issue, he flew escorts from japan to Vietnam during the war,
Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson proudly wore the US Army uniform. Their statutes are in the process of being removed.
After this hearing, the Dems will probably try to elevate Lt. Col Kent Dorfman to Army Chief of Staff.
Yes, but lets' be honest: Vindman looked like a tubby geek in his uniform. Judging on looks alone, he did not represent the Army well. Definitely not awe inspiring.
Also, as a comparison, North was a boxing champ in the Marines and lead a Rifle Company in Vietmam.
Vindy transcribes telephone calls and eats donuts. His uniform looks nice, though.
"Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson proudly wore the US Army uniform. Their statutes are in the process of being removed."
Maybe because they severed their connection to the US Army by seeking to aid the Confederate states in seceding from the union. Doesn't that make them guilty of rebellion, sedition and (or) treason? They were lucky not to have been imprisoned (or worse) at the time.
Regarding the appropriateness, I have no idea what the standard protocol is, but if that's their uniform, then wearing it, unless expressly forbidden by some rule, is fine.
But I think Perry has a legitimate point about linking Vindman's testimony to the military. North was one of the people being investigated and you can't blame him for getting all gussied up, improving his chances by putting on his best face. Vindman is an accuser, using his military status to enhance his accusations. Vindman's manipulation feels wrong in a way that North's manipulation does not.
I can't guarantee that this opinion isn't shaded by the fact that I think the impeachment is a sham, a coup even. But I'm usually pretty good about avoiding that pitfall.
yes his sparring partner was james webb, who never let us forget it, he ultimately learned nothing from the Vietnam experience and joined the democrats, and we saw how that worked out,
I just realized a serious faux pas, and I'm glad my friend at the bakery called me out on it. I have insulted jelly donuts everywhere and they are pissed. They don't appreciate me equating this man's character with theirs and how they are filled with sweet sweet goodness. The cream puffs are equally angry because the portrayal hits too close to home.
I apologize to donuts - jelly filled or not - everywhere for this error. Continue being awesome your delicious fried confections everywhere. You are most definitely not like Vindman.
It is amusing how often we hear from the media that he's a Purple Heart recipient, as though that makes him of unassailable integrity or honor or something. Good for him getting injured in combat and then continuing to serve.
He really lost me though when he insisted on being addressed as "Lt. Col." rather than "Mr." What a self-important twit. And frankly Lt. Col. isn't a high enough rank to get all hot and bothered about. It's essentially middle management.
My grandpa was a Lt. Col. in the USAF. By the time I knew him, he was retired, so everyone called him "Mr." unless he was on base getting a haircut or shopping at the PX, in which case they'd call him "colonel." Not "Lt. Col." So Vindman apparently doesn't even understand the etiquette.
Likewise, my other grandpa was a two-star admiral. Everyone called him "Mr." although some addressed him as "admiral." No one who understood the etiquette addressed him as "rear admiral."
But here's the main point: no military officer should ever be offended if a civilian, who's their boss after all, addressed them as "Mr." or "Ms." or whatever. If they do get offended, they're an asshole and don't understand their role in our society.
Doesn't that make them guilty of rebellion, sedition and (or) treason? They were lucky not to have been imprisoned (or worse) at the time.
they weren't just guilty of that, they were OATH BREAKERS
Like General George Thomas (from Virginia), they had taken an OATH* to the United States; NOT to the state of Virginia.
Robt E Lee was (by definition) a man WITHOUT HONOR. He betrayed his country
Lt Col (ret.) Dorfman took THE SAME OATH, and betrayed it as well
Oath* I, George Henry Thomas, appointed a lieutenant in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies
I believe that LTC Vindman was not only within his rights to wear his uniform with all the fruit salad on his chest, but was in fact somewhat obligated to do so. But the best spin I can put on his testimony is that after eight years of Barack Obama’s manifest disinterest in foreign policy and consequent delegation of policy to underlings, the underlings got used to the notion that things would go on this way forever. And it hasn’t because it can’t.
I recognize that for many countries outside the Middle East, George W. Bush may also have over-delegated policy-making responsibility too far down the chain of command. I don’t know, and really don’t much care. Sentence one of Article II does not have a caveat to the effect that the executive authority of the President is contingent on acceptance by the people who are far down the chain of command. A President is not bound by what his predecessors chose to do.
For the record, I am in favor of a court martial for Vindman, and breaking him down to Easy Deuce. Let him learn how to work for a living.
For those of you keeping score
Gen George Thomas STAYED in the Union, and SAVED the Union; on multiple occasions
Not only that, he faithfully obeyed the orders of the officers appointed over him,
even when those officers were crap
Ardilla
https://mobile.twitter.com/GOPoversight/status/1197194352059174912
Well well:
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/625831.html
What are the military regulations regarding the wearing of the uniform in what settings? This is the key issue, I think, which I have seen no one authoritatively state one way or the other.
I think both Vindman and North were wrong to wear their uniforms to the respective hearings- they were not testifying as members of military on military matters. These hearings were quite different from oversight hearings in which budgets etc of the different branches of the armed forces are- in those cases the officers are reprenting the Defense Department. Basically, I would have a rule that you only wear the uniform when you are representing the Defense Department, or your branch of it, before Congress.
On the optics, North's use of it was far more effective, but that is because he was in far better looking physical shape than Vindman, who looks a bit like George Gobel.
It is amusing how often we hear from the media that he's a Purple Heart recipient, as though that makes him of unassailable integrity or honor or something.
Like John Kerry.
Thunderchick said...
I do have a problem with his arrogant comment to be addressed as Lieutenant Colonel Vindman when Rep. Nunes called him Mr. Vindman. Nunes is a civilian and is not required to address him by his proper rank.
Remember Last Year? When Babs Boxer went Ape Shit at a (one star) general following military etiquette and calling her Maam?
How are we non democrats supposed to know what titles, pronouns, etc we're supposed to use, this week?
OT
I was wondering why Schiff did not call Aretha Franklin and Marvin Gaye to testify. Aside from the fact they are both deceased, it is my clear understanding that they ...
Heard it Through the Grapevine
Looking at him, I thought his uniform was a set of pajamas and holding a mug of hot chocolate.
"His uniform looks nice, though."
That's the point of a military uniform, isn't it?
Marvin Gaye had something to say:
People say, "Believe half of what you see Son,
and none of what you hear"
But I can't help but be confused
If it's true please tell me dear.
Lyrics from I Heard it Through the Grapevine
I can't keep up with what we're supposed to call someone on any given day. With 57 genders, ma'am, sir,Xer it's too much to keep up with.
This POS gives everyone a bad name. Even dudes he served with during Ranger Challenge years ago are saying it. He was a scumbag then and he's a scumbag now, he's just a scumbag in uniform.
How did that fat shit ever possibly earn a Ranger tab? I doubt he could walk a thousand yards without his heart exploding. Or did he get his nuts blown off for that Purple Heart, and since then he gained a hundred pounds like a capon?
But nobody is who they are at twenty. Fine. Still, the compensation for age is wisdom. What was this guy thinking?
I didn't watch the performance but it seems to me that this article by Matt Margolis is correct every particular.
The ten moments of Vindman testimony that Margolis points too negate any argument for an impeachment. The whole thing seems to be an exercise in absurdity.
It isn't just that Trump should not be impeached over this, it is that the whole situation is ridiculously far from being impeachable.
The mystery is what is going through in the minds of those on the left? How is it that they think? What are they doing?
I don't think we are acknowledging the full reality of what is occurring here.
The one thing I'm glad of is that he's a dude.
If he were a woman, all this pointing out how chubby he is would be met with righteous indignation, "A man wouldn't be treated like this!"
Its an ourobouros:
https://mobile.twitter.com/The_War_Economy/status/1197200480532914176
Ollie North looked very Burt Lancasterish and spiffy in his uniform, but I still thought then, and still do, that he was/is a scamster, though a much more talented one than Mr. Lieutenant Colonel Vindman.
That's a terrible thing to say about George Gobel!
No he was more like kurt douglas in his esrnestness.
According to Army spokesman Lt. Col. Emanuel Ortiz-Cruz: “A Soldier performing duties in an official capacity will normally be in uniform. In cases where a Soldier is detailed to an agency outside of DoD, the individual would follow the policies of that agency.”
So what are the policies of the NSC?
Does no one do journalism anymore beyond slapping some comments together with a headline?
Or should we simply conclude the answer would not serve the author's goals?
The Pillsbury Dough Boy in uniform
To be, he looks like Flounder, from Animal House. Grown older, but not grown up.
He also looks like a disgrace to his uniform. Fat, priggish, and stupid is no way to go through life, buddy.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the resemblance
Big Mike, what does Easy Deuce mean?
Doesn't the chubby Vindman remind you of an over compensating, over sensitive, over self-important Sergeant Schultz? He sees things, hears things that are not there, and says things that make no sense. Better stay with the original lovable Sergeant who sees nothing, hears nothing, and says nothing.
what does Easy Deuce mean?
Maybe E2, a private.
BTW, one of the things Ollie North could not hide was that he received a gift of $200,000 from the Middle East arms merchant Khashoggi (must have been the father or uncle of the recently deceased WaPO "journalist" Jamal Khashoggi), who explained that he had just felt sorry for Col. North whose valuable services had not been adequately rewarded by his country!
If Vindman had been convicted of a war crime and then pardoned by Trump, he would get a lot more respect around here.
More scenes from Vindman's past as he answers questions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP8y63Ms4o
"A jelly donut? How did it get here?"
Nichevo, 11:22:
"How did that fat shit ever possibly earn a Ranger tab? I doubt he could walk a thousand yards without his heart exploding."
I've known guys who got fat right afterward and stayed that way. Most don't, but if you're not careful - you come out, your body is still in fat-storing mode, and all of a sudden you can eat hearty, all you want!
As for the reports of his peer evaluations, well - I know a few tabbed guys whose peers all thought they were awesome, but they are the minority. If he didn't get peered out, there must have been a few in his squad who thought he was worth keeping.
I'm disgusted by what I think he is doing now, but I'd prefer to stick to that.
Mutaman: "If Vindman had been convicted of a war crime and then pardoned by Trump, he would get a lot more respect around here."
Some people don't cotton to those who are attempting to stage a coup to overthrow a duly elected President of the United States.
And some people arent impressed when honorable combat vets are railroaded by an overtly political military leadership caste who want to use the combat vet to advance their careers.
Different strokes for different folks.
Mutaman said...
If Vindman had been convicted of a war crime and then pardoned by Trump, he would get a lot more respect around here.
Actually, Eddie Gallagher was acquitted, you weasel.
North should have gone into politics in another state, but decided to run for US Senate in Virginia, where back-stabbing Cunt John Warner endorsed 3rd party liberal Republican Marshall Coleman.
Marshall got 11% and siphoned off enough votes to the let the D candidate win. So Ollie's career was over. Of course, having defeated North, Coleman went back to his Law Office. The R Establishment has been pulling this shit forever, but people put up with it.
uncle, and glen robinette provided the security system, against abu nidal, if I remember, I think he faced more serious threats than vindman, he went from the field to an attache, but you see the double standards, when they are making up stories like gary webb did a decade later and regurgitated in killing the messenger get back to me, now he was buying some weapons in part from monzer al kassar, to transfer to the contras,
I'm just glad President Vindmann can get back to running foreign policy.
"Fortunately for those of us hoping to hang onto our powers of reason and judgment, Vindman is an ordinary looking man with a bland demeanor."
Your powers of reason and judgment tell you that this ordinary-looking man is the prime leaker helping to set off the coup attempt, correct? I mean, you look right through the bland demeanor to see the traitorous weasel within, no?
@AllenS, E-2. E-1 is the rank privates hold during Basic Training. Back on my day (50 years ago) most of us were promoted to E-2 (Easy Deuce) immediately after Basic.
NOrth was a combat officer in Vietnam. I don't think Vindmann was in Iraq. He was just wounded by a mine, when traveling around. Anyway, the uniform doesn't help Vindmann - and I expect him to retire soon and get his reward from Soros or some other D Billionaire for his part in this.
yes, they would sabotage cuccinelli 20 some years later, and even Gillespie more recently,
IRC, North being in Uniform didn't help with the News Media and the Democrats. I don't remember any "How dare you criticize this patriot!". Nor did anyone suggest North was in any "danger" because powerful D's and R's were attacking him over Iran-contra.
I just never heard the term before, but thought that was it. Checking my records, I went in 20 Jun 1966 and made E2 20 Oct 1966. Made E3 at Ft Bragg (82nd Abn Div) on 24 Jan 67. 23 Aug 67 made E4 (Spec 4).
Vague memory of Reagan quid - quo.
Arms for Taliban and arms for contra
@AllenS, well, it helps to be assigned to the Pentagon and it helps even more when some of your friends in the barracks run the computers that crank out promotion lists.
North was clumsy in linking the Contras and the hostages. The Contra aid was a worthy cause having been blocked by leftist Democrats who preferred the communist Noriega regime.
The hostages were also a worthy cause but selling missiles to Iran was not good policy. It did get a couple of hostages out but the real goal was Buckley, the CIA chief of station. It would have been better to stage a raid into the Bekka Valley but we did not have the capability yet. Carter had tried in Iran and the mission failed for reasons that were finally fixed later. There is a pretty good book about Carter's Iran mission and why it failed.
It's called "The Guts to Try," and explains why it failed.
Well, this ought to throw a monkey wrench in the works. Ukrainian MPs demand Zelensky, Trump investigate suspicion of U.S.-Ukraine corruption involving $7.4 bln
Don't be surprised when you don't hear about this on CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc, etc....
Breaking news: Ukrainian members of parliament have demanded the presidents of Ukraine and the United States, Volodymyr Zelensky and Donald Trump, investigate suspicions of $7.4 billion money laundering by the "family" of ex-President Viktor Yanukovych through the American investment fund Franklin Templeton Investments, which they said has ties to the U.S. Democratic Party. The article goes on to say that the Biden family cut was estimated to be $16.5 million. No word on what the cut was for Vindman, Yovanovitch, and others.
Curse you NorthOfTheOneOhOne for being quicker than I.
Big Mike said...
The article goes on to say that the Biden family cut was estimated to be $16.5 million. No word on what the cut was for Vindman, Yovanovitch, and others.
Don't for Obama, the Clintons, and probably half of the DemocRATs in Congress from 2008 to 2016!
Big Mike said...
Curse you NorthOfTheOneOhOne for being quicker than I.
Great minds, Mike! Great minds!
Ooops, that should be; "Don't forget Obama, the Clintons...".
Wow... Jim Himes can’t read to himself without moving his lips?
The difference is simple. Lt. Colonel Oliver North looked like an Army recruitment poster. Clearly Vindman did not. That's not totally his fault. Yes, he's clearly put on a few pounds since the day he first signed his papers, but even if he had 8% body fat and a chiseled jaw, he doesn't have "the look". North did, and that's why your TV talking heads were oohing and ahhing over his testimony.
Gladys Knight heard it through the grapevine best of all. Of course, her grapes weren't seedless.
Chris of Rights,
"Lt. Colonel Oliver North looked like an Army recruitment poster"
Lt Col North is deeply insulted - he is a Marine.
no the arms to the mujahedeen were an open checkbook, matched with general intelligence and inter service intelligence, much of the money did go to the charming haqquani clan, the acid throwing hekmatyar of hisba islam, and sayyafs band of bandits,
I didn't remember a $200k gift to North, just a camera security system (fat lot of good that would do).
44 is pretty old for a LTC. Was Vindman passed over for Colonel, or just older when commissioned? North was injured in a car wreck and several years late to graduate from USNA.
Congressman Turner (OH) is very impressive... shooting down cable news headlines real-time...
Vindman reminds me of Allan Sherman ("My Son, the Folksinger").
The R Establishment has been pulling this shit forever, but people put up with it.
Warner was probably were told by the Dems he needed to do it "for the good of the Party". You know, honor, staining credibility, eternal shame, all that stuff.
Meanwhile, Governor Blackface is still in office. So it was just another case of civility bullshit.
Today the R's are being told they must impeach Trump "for the good of the Party" once again.
Some of them can never be fooled too many times.
44 is pretty old for a LTC. Was Vindman passed over for Colonel,
Those older Lt Cols are often EM promoted, like Ralph Peters, another Trump hater.
Remember Last Year? When Babs Boxer went Ape Shit at a (one star) general following military etiquette and calling her Maam?
How are we non democrats supposed to know what titles, pronouns, etc we're supposed to use, this week?
Yes, I absolutely do remember! Sir and Ma'am in the military are the proper and respectful ways to address higher ranking military officers and civilian leaders. The general (I can't remember who it was) that addressed Senator Boxer as "Ma'am" did not do anything wrong - he could have addressed her as Senator or Ma'am. Boxer was the one who was in the wrong.
On the other hand, LTC Vindman, an active duty officer, knows or should know, that a civilian Congressman was under no obligation to refer to him by his military rank. Vindman made his comment to be snarky, which made him look bad, particularly to those of us who have served. I wouldn't expect the average person with no military background to know the difference.
And frankly Lt. Col. isn't a high enough rank to get all hot and bothered about. It's essentially middle management.
Exactly!!!
Big Mike and NorthOfTheOneOhOne, narciso at 11:05 beat you both to the punch. I don’t expect American major media to cover it, but if they do, expect the MPs in question to be portrayed as corruptocrats trying to “interfere” with the 2020 election.
Lt. Col Vindman's preferred pronoun is ....cheeseburger.
Benedict Arnold wore a uniform too.
@Drill Sgt
I will plead age for not being up to date on what the Army considers the appropriate costume for day wear. Why in hell did they dump the greens? .... and the berets, OMG we are not the French. Most likely the blues were adopted because they thought the USMC blues looked so neat they wanted to trade on that; perhaps make people think that they were warriors! ( I know the Army has warriors too , but you must admit that it has an amazing percentage of REMFs).
are/were we treaty-bound to do so?
Ukraine MPs Demand Trump and Zelensky Investigate U.S.-Ukraine Corruption Involving $7.4 bln
Treaty With Ukraine On Mutual Legal Assistance In Criminal Matters
https://www.congress.gov/106/cdoc/tdoc16/CDOC-106tdoc16.pdf
Even if I was a Democrat wanting to bring down Trump, I would still find Schiff and his performance to be disgusting and treasonous. It tells you a lot about people in the resistance that they would have that foul human as their leader.
OK Vindman was one of those ROTC officers, Howard hates. 1999 commission.
Howard's still pissed that Bluto busted his guitar.
The Army apparently dropped greens when they went to BDUs for everyday wear. All the services have done that.
Now I hear Pinks and Greens might come back.
Ollie was (is) a highly decorated Marine combat veteran, Viet Nam. Vindman's struggle appears to be with the vending machine down the hall. When Ollie's expensive security system was questioned, he pointed out he was dealing with real bad guys. His was the first mention of the name Osama Bin Laden in testimony before congress.
Well, if a meeting is an official act to satisfy the charge of bribery, all of Congress will have to be indicted since all of them preferentially meet with donors to their campaigns over non-donors.
Simple description of LTC Vindman: REMF.
I can't wait to hear Dems and the media argue that Trump *must* violate a treaty with the Ukraine put in place by Bill Clinton because obeying the treaty would help his election chances.
Boss Hogg as played by Schiff and Rosco P Coltrane played by Eric "Fartman" Swalwell.
The media, in their dishonest attempts to get Trump, can't help but make fools of themselves. Trump literally quotes Sondland's written testimony in a tweet, and AP puts out a headline that that says, "Trump Contradicts Sondland Testimony". When called out on it, AP, goes, "Oops," and takes it down.
The bottom line is that Sondland explicitly exonerated Trump by repeating what Sondland was told by Trump, himself, no ifs ands or buts about it. All Sondland had was his own opinions about what Trump was doing, which he is entitled to, but those opinions are no basis for impeachment since they aren't actual evidence.
"And frankly Lt. Col. isn't a high enough rank to get all hot and bothered about. It's essentially middle management."
Setting foreign policy is far above his pay grade.
You take the witnesses that the Democrats consider friendly to their cause, and put their testimony together, it almost looks like there was a coordinated plan to try to lure Trump into an explicit quid pro quo on the aid or a meeting. Vindman apparently is the person who pushed back on an early meeting between Zelensky and Trump, and if it turns out the aid was held up by someone other than Trump (Mark Sandy's testimony might matter here), then some of the Sondland's own questions to Trump take on a somewhat different light. It is odd to me that Sondland would ask explicitly what Trump wants from the Ukrainians. Of course, if Trump had answered that question with anything other than, "Nothing- I don't want a quid pro quo of any kind," then the Democrats would have the hardest evidence they could possibly hope for- however, Trump didn't take the bait, if bait is what Sondland was offering.
I realize this is probably just a silly hypothesis on my part, but the actions of Trump's enemies have certainly increased my level of cynicism about their actions, even if totally innocent.
Multiple officers coming forward with first hand accounts of Vindman trashing the US and its citizens to Russian and Ukrainian military personnel.
Because of course he did.
What disturbed me most was that Vindman discussed his concerns about the July 25 phone call to a whole bunch of people instead of discussing his concerns with his superior officer. Jennifer Williams, aide to VP Pence, told no one about the call. Did anyone ask Vindman if he has been approached with job offers connected to his leaking and testimony?
Basically, the way it looks to me, the Democrats haven't found anyone willing to go out on a limb and tell a bald-faced lie about Trump holding up the aid for the investigation, and increasingly, it looks like they will have to find someone to do that since every witness has had nothing but their own opinion- in other words, the evidence strongly suggests Trump never asked for either quid or quo directly, either orally or written.
in other words, the evidence strongly suggests Trump never asked for either quid or quo directly, either orally or written.
Two issues with your point, Yancey
1. They need to show the opposite, that the evidence strongly suggests he did, but
2. No criminal statute has been violated when a POTUS tells a foreign power that they need to look into financial corruption when a chunk of the money the US is giving them is given back to Hunter Biden and his cronies.
Beetle Bailey Vindman and Bug-Eyed Schiff
Most of the humor in Beetle Bailey revolves around the inept characters stationed at Camp Swampy
ISTM Trump knew he had a number of days as the Executive of the US to release the funds, and possibly was using that time to his advantage, but hid legit advantage. There's absolutely nothing wrong with him asking about the 2016 elections or to find out what Biden had been publicly bragging about.
It also seems to me Vindman was concerned after the call that there may indeed be an investigation into the Bidens, and that's why he told the "whistleblower". And that's when this kicked into an impeachment against Trump -- to keep it from being an investigation into Biden.
Here is the only part of Sondland's testimony that matters- it came after the break and after Schiff and the media went wild proclaiming that Sondland implicated Trump, Pence, Pompeo, and others in directly claiming a quid pro quo during the morning testimony:
Representative Turner: "After you testified, Chairman [Adam] Schiff ran out and gave a press conference and said he gets to impeach the president of the United States because of your testimony and if you pull up CNN today, right now, their banner says ‘Sondland ties Trump to withholding aid,' Is that your testimony today, Ambassador Sondland? That you have evidence that Donald Trump tied the investigations to the aid? Because I don’t think you’re saying that.”
Sondland: “I’ve said repeatedly Congressman, I was presuming."
Representative Turner: “So, no one told you? Giuliani didn’t tell you? Mulvaney didn’t tell you? Pompeo didn’t tell you? Nobody else on this planet told you that Donald Trump was tying aid to these investigations, is that correct?”
Sondland: “I think I already testified....."
Representative Turner: “No, answer the question- is it correct? No one on this planet told you that Donald Trump was tying aid to the investigations? Because if your answer is ‘yes,’ then the chairman is wrong and the headline on CNN is wrong. No one on this planet told you that President Trump was tying aid to investigations, yes or no?”
Sondland: “Yes."
Representative Turner: “So, you really have no testimony today that ties President Trump to a scheme to withhold aid from Ukraine in exchange for these investigations?”
Sondland: “Other than my own presumption."
Me again:
Sondland was trying to evade the question by Turner, but Turner eventually forced him to answer it. Sondland had only his opinion about the matter, and no actual evidence first person or hearsay.
The media will lie relentlessly on this matter at the tops of their lungs, and will only retract their "mistakes" later in sotto voce, or just hope no one notices.
The Dems gave away a lot today in pressing Sondland about who an investigation called for by Trump would benefit. "Trump", they wanted him to say.
So all the investigations the Democrats have called for are obviously designed to benefit Democrats. Including this one.
And we are going to hear all the Dems asked about it tonight in a debate, and they are all going to be sorely tempted to say their political opponent should be removed from office and out of their way.
Francisco D,
I agree with both points, but there is nothing wrong with saying that the evidence strongly supports the idea that the actual testimony makes it clear that Trump never told anyone that he wanted the investigations for either a meeting or the appropriated aid- if it were otherwise, someone by now would have said so.
On point 2, I have written here several times that the facts about the Bidens were always the Achilles Heel of this impeachment attempt, and any request from Trump to the Ukrainians to investigate those facts and their meaning could be nothing but proper and to the benefit of the US.
Blogger BUMBLE BEE said...
His [Oliver North's] was the first mention of the name Osama Bin Laden in testimony before congress.
I believe that the name he mentioned before Congress was Abu Nidal, not Osama bin Laden.
Sondland is an interesting character. He seems more amused than anything else with the attention he is getting.
He is clearly trying to portray himself as a truth teller who will not be intimidated (by either side) into telling them what they want to hear. That said, there is no doubt that he cleared Trump of the bullshit quid pro quo charge.
It's weird that Yovanavich's whole testimony is completely irrelevant. We were supposed to believe she was removed so Trump could put in the "three amigos" and begin his scheme of corruption. But now we are supposed to believe these guys were on to Trump. So what was her point?
In other news, I guess the Arkansas Billy Jean was telling the truth about Hunter Biden. Biden, who had said the kid is not his son by denying having had sexual relations with the mother, was finally forced to agree to a paternity test. Guess the kid and mom will now get some Burisma money.
It is only a rumor I have heard that the kid has been offered the job of Ukrainian Defense Minister.
An infantry officer with a CIB and no BSM. That's... interesting.
Jason said...
An infantry officer with a CIB and no BSM. That's... interesting.
You've said this before. Woyld you explain?
Burisma has just appointed the newest member of the Biden family to the board of directors. In a press release, Burisma's spokesperson said, "Hunter Biden's newest son brings to the job all the talents and experience in the energy business that his father has."
No problem with his wearing the uniform. When we still had the green Class A's, the dress blue uniform would not have been appropriate in this context. However, since we ditched the green Class A uniform, the uniform that Vindman wore is absolutely appropriate.
Also, I have no problem with Vindman insisting on being referred to by his rank. That's an important tradition in the Army, going back to Washington, who used to refuse correspondence from the British General William Howe addressing him as "George Washington, Esq."
Washington insisted on being referred to as "General," because anything less would be a capitulation.
There is also a long history of POWs asserting their rank and status, in order to preserve the rights and good order and discipline of the men under their command, against those who want to obliterate their status as leaders.
Not that Vindman is at all comparable to Washington - or Col. Bogey, for that matter. But he was correct to insist on being referred to by his rank. Had I been called to testify before Congress I would have insisted on the same thing.
Vindman reminds me of Allan Sherman ("My Son, the Folksinger").
Yes! Who made fun of himself for being fat.
@ jason BSM = Bronze star - the officer's good conduct medal? I too was surprised that Vindman had only the Purple Heart as a personal award. One would assume that the Purple heart would have been awarded for a certain amount of exposure to danger which would be accompanied by a Bronze Star. I know from personal experience that it does not take much to win a Bronze Star with combat V.
The bronze star medal is the typical customary service award for a tour in a combat zone for a combat arms officer who is diligent and effective. The combat infantry badge is awarded to everyone in the unit who holds an 11-Series MOS while the unit is in combat. So you can get that just for being branch qualified and showing up.
But the BSM can be either a valor award (it will have a "V" device attached to the ribbon on the dress blue uniform), or a service award, typically given to senior NCOs and officers for solid and effective service over the course of a deployment.
Anything less is a sign that the officer is either a fuck-up or a pain-in-the-ass for the chain of command, or a sham artist, and would be taken as such, by both the officer involved, and most likely by future promotion boards. They'd see that, and want to know why. They'd read through the OERs very carefully, because commanders who don't give an officer a BSM after a CIB-qualifying tour are trying to send a message.
(Though some who already have BSMs want a JCOM as a second award, rather than an oak leaf cluster on the BSM ribbon.)
If he wasn't shunted over to the foreign service career specialty, and instead remained with the TO&E units in the combatant commands, which have promotion pyramids, rather than poles, he would have been ROPMA'd out a long time ago.
For an infantry officer who was in country long enough to qualify for a CIB, the absence of a BSM is the Dog That Didn't Bark.
Them that knows, knows.
Anyone with a BSM with a "V" device has my respect. Especially at the junior enlisted level.
No, that's not easy to earn.
I would like to make a statement for the record:
I'm not a huge fan of Republicans. Too many Romney/Jeb! types. I'm more anti-Left, anti-liberal, anti-Dem because they are individually, and collectively, batshit crazy.
However, I love these GOP guys on the committee. Jordan, Ratcliffe et al are simply outstanding. Elise Sefanik? I would marry her, if my wife would let me. Maybe, have to move to Utah. Whatever. The point is, Great fucking job, guys! Without you, the Lawfare assholes and Clown Car Democrats would steamroll us, the country and the Constitution. We appreciate you.
Duly executed, 20 Nov 19
I can just see every enlisted soldier who's ever been chaptered out or who received a bar to re-enlistment under the Army Weight Control Program, or who busted their ass to lose weight so they wouldn't get chaptered out, sitting on the sofa at home watching Vindman's testimony and throwing beer cans at the TV.
Since we're comparing these two officers, North had a Silver Star.
Huge difference.
If I were CoS of the Army, I'd order a full GI inspection and audit of all DC-area unit weight control programs.
Like, right. The fuck. Now.
"...sitting on the sofa at home watching Vindman's testimony and throwing beer cans at the TV."
Lt. Col Dorfman's BMI is much higher than his IQ.
Vindman boinks Sean Young in the back of a taxi cab or GTFO
Without you, the Lawfare assholes and Clown Car Democrats would steamroll us, the country and the Constitution. We appreciate you.
Yes, they make Gowdy, who was in the fucking majority, look like the useless asshole he was.
now Interfax is considered too Russian, the kyev post is consuming it's previous reporting,
they haven't figured this out,
https://www.kyivpost.com/business/ukreximbank-chairman-released-on-bail-may-be-replaced-amid-banking-scandals.html
Just some FYI - no one who was actually in the military, or married to someone in it, is impressed just because someone is giving testimony in uniform. In NJPs and courts martial everyone testifying is in uniform - someone is usually lying.
And we've all known weasel dirtbags in uniform.
Here's the question I haven't seen any of the very wise and all knowing media ask or wonder about. What idiot allowed a naturalized American from UKRAINE to work on Ukrainian issues? That violates every security protocol I've ever been aware of. It's why with all the native Spanish speakers in the U.S. my military intelligence specialist son and daughter-in-law were sent to Defense Language School to learn Spanish and translate Spanish intercepts. Native language speakers cannot be trusted with translations. There's a small possibility that some can, but the statistics say don't do it if you want accuracy.
Vindman shouldn't have been anywhere near that phone call.
one has to resort to samizdat underground publication, because the major papers are on fusion's rolodex, all of them,
What I remember is all the coverage of Fawn Hall.
I don't remember Fawn Hall.
I remember Fawn Leibowitz...(sob)... She was going to make me a pot.
really it's been thirty some years ad I still remember fawn hall?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/everyone-knew-of-quid-pro-quo-sondland-testimony-
takeaways/ar-BBX3Nr0?ocid=spartandhp
is that story, within a parsec of the truth?
What idiot allowed a naturalized American from UKRAINE to work on Ukrainian issues?
He was very young when they left. Presumably, the parents were endoscoped thoroughly before he got a clearance.
What happened to the commie West Pointer of a few years ago? The lack of discipline that instructor reported was shocking, yet he himself did nothing but write it up.
closer to the truth,
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/jordan-slams-sondland-for-omitting-trumps-no-quid-pro-quo-claim-from-statement/ar-BBX3Ntm?ocid=spartandhp
Ralph L said...
He was very young when they left. Presumably, the parents were endoscoped thoroughly before he got a clearance.
Immaterial. He learned Ukrainian at home. Should never have been anywhere near Ukrainian issues. Standard policy.
It's why the WWII 442nd Infantry Regiment was assigned to the European theater of operations.
Lots of things can hold up, or even be cause for denying, a security clearance, or denying work in a particular area. My wife's civilian TS was held up for a few months because her brother, not her, her brother, had multiple DUIs on his record.
well consider the cinnabon girl, marie harf was considered a central Asian expert, lol, and lets not speak of tommie 'the dude' vietor, who was obamas driver,
@MayBee, the "point" of Yovanovitch's testimony was to have a woman moved to tears. Duh!
did it work?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ambassador-gordon-sondland-chooses-to-save-himself-not-trump/ar-BBX3YBy?ocid=spartandhp
Ralph L said...
...
What happened to the commie West Pointer of a few years ago?
Had to look it up. OTH in early 2018
https://apnews.com/57a1fd1e2df84cfdb2fc51375815444f/Army-splits-with-West-Point-grad-who-touted-communist-revolt
He's writing today for various left wing publications, and apparently has podcasts. Undoubtedly not ever censored or demonetized by Youtube.
"Vindman shouldn't have been anywhere near that phone call."
You don't understand. The USA has magic dirt that changes *everyone* into a Yankee Doodle Dandy the second they get USA citizenship. NEVER do they have any loyalty to their home country or their parents home country. Its our magic dirt that does it.
"It's why the WWII 442nd Infantry Regiment was assigned to the European theater of operations."
Its also why General Krueger was sent to the Pacific.
Elise Sefanik? I would marry her, if my wife would let me. Maybe, have to move to Utah
Mormons are conventionally conservative. Perhaps with a liberal progression (i.e. monotonic divergence), or as a political congruence ("=") (i.e. [profitable] sociopolitical construct), tomorrow or never. Hope springs eternal.
Althouses own Remington Rangers cackling their way to Victory
Every one of these witnesses seems to think they are the President. I'll give a shit about your preferred policy ideas when you get the nomination. Until then, do what your boss tell you and shut up about it.
Big Mike said...
@MayBee, the "point" of Yovanovitch's testimony was to have a woman moved to tears. Duh!
You are obviously right, Big Mike, because they brought her back up tonight for no good reason. Sondland says his wife has been getting hate mail and his businesses are being boycotted with the support of a Congressman, and yet we had to hear about poor Yavanovich again. They must think women will turn toward them if they can make Trump mean to women.
Howard: "Althouses own Remington Rangers cackling their way to Victory"
We're beating you morons with 2 nerf guns and a water balloon.
Agree with you Yancey Ward: since the show trial began, I've been waiting for the DNC/MSM gang to come up with someone (probably with ties to the Clinton Crime Family) who'll be willing to lie to become a Hero of the Republic.
"It was such a striking demonstration of the overriding power of the visual world and the emotional component of reason. So I make it a point to observe my responses to try to bring the mysterious undercurrent to the surface."
Emotional surfboard rides
The mysterious undercurrent
Observe, respond, surface.
,
as a former military officer who is still in contact with many of my former colleagues, the question I keep hearing from them is when is the last time the LTC had his physical fitness test, he looks at least 20-30 lbs overweight for the Army ht/wt scale as well.
@Jason You are correct on the enlisted with a Bronze Star vs officers. Most likely the enlisted man did something truly outstanding in combat that might have earned an officer a Silver Star. Silver Stars are not to be scorned at any level E or O.
Jason said...
Anyone with a BSM with a "V" device has my respect. Especially at the junior enlisted level.
No, that's not easy to earn.
Looking at the grave of a staff or tech sergeant who was at Normandy and has the BSM noted on his marker - you know no more - was that also snacks in the ETO or did that mean something?
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