Althouse: At the Friday Cafe...

November 22, 2019

At the Friday Cafe...

... you can talk about whatever you want.

63 comments:

Seeing Red said...: Democratic Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jan Schakowsky are working on legislation that would nearly double the top individual U.S. tax rate to 59% on the highest incomes.

The bill, which is still being drafted, also would increase capital gains rates to equalize them with income taxes and move to a so-called mark-to-market system. That would require individuals to pay taxes annually on the appreciation of their investments, real estate and business holdings.

The bill corrects “the most glaring injustice” of the tax code: That investors pay lower taxes than nurses and electricians, Schakowsky, an Illinois Democrat, said Friday.

The legislation, which is slated to be introduced in January, would mark a significant tax increase, particularly for high-income earners and those who earn their money from investments. The current top rate is 37% and the long-term capital gains rate is 23.8%, including a levy to fund the Affordable Care Act.

Ocasio-Cortez of New York in January called for a significant increase in the top individual rate, suggesting that those making $10 million or more should pay a 70% tax rate. The 59% income-tax rate, combined with federal payroll levies and state and local taxes, means that top earners would be paying around 70%, Schakowsky said at an Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center event in Washington.; 11/22/19, 8:54 PM
Seeing Red said...: It’s arrogant to think nurses and electricians aren’t investors.; 11/22/19, 8:56 PM
Sprezzatura said...: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkqyIoYAXV8; 11/22/19, 8:57 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: I'm reading an excellent book by HW Brands, "The President & The General"

It's about the tension between Prez Truman & Gen MacArthur in the post-WW II era. Marshall Plan, Berlin Airlift, saving Greece & Turkey from the Soviets, rebuilding Japan after 2 atomic bombs, China's loss to Communism, and, their showdown over Korea.

Great book about perilous times, makes the modern day headlines seem petty and pointless.

My Father-In-Law caught the tail end of the Korean War, as an Army Private. He's 86, best man I've ever known. Still a JFK Democrat though......,; 11/22/19, 9:04 PM
Sprezzatura said...: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bfrQ8ZutmLE

Retard face.; 11/22/19, 9:07 PM
gilbar said...: i wonder if they asked Alexandria Occasional Cortex how treating Capital Gains as regular income would result in a change in tax returns?

When they pointed out to Barry O'Bama that EVERY TIME that they've Lowered capital gains tax rates, it's resulted HIGHER tax returns.... He said:
It's Not about Money, it's about Fairness

Someone needs to get AOC on record; 11/22/19, 9:11 PM
wild chicken said...: Finally saw Soylent Green all the way through...lovely...; 11/22/19, 9:12 PM
Jersey Fled said...: A JFK Democrat is a Republican.; 11/22/19, 9:14 PM
stephen cooper said...: Edward G Robinson's best role, and he had a lot of good roles; 11/22/19, 9:14 PM
Ken B said...: A JFK Democrat is, to the modern Democratic Party, a war criminal, a bigot, a sexist, a homophobe, a transphobe, an islamaphobe, a deplorable. Oh, and racist; that goes without saying.; 11/22/19, 9:24 PM
Mark said...: Now wait just one got dang minute.

So last night’s Balance of Terror begins with a wedding between crewmembers Angela Martine and Robert Tomlinson that is interrupted when the Romulans in their cloaked submarine attack an outpost. Angela really loves Robert and assures him that he’s not getting away and he’s going to marry her . . . but he gets killed before the end of the episode. She’s understandably devastated.

Next episode – Shore Leave. Some of the crew beam down to a planet for R&R and two of the people who beam down are this couple who are very friendly and flirtatious between them. And it is the very same Angela who is all lovey dovey with some other man! What???

How quickly she moved on.; 11/22/19, 9:25 PM
Ken B said...: BAG
No president since Lincoln faced more serious challenges and got more of them right than Truman. Birkel can tell you how awful he was, fighting those foreign wars.; 11/22/19, 9:27 PM
Maillard Reactionary said...: They promised us sunshine this afternoon and I got clouds and drizzle instead. I am dissatisfied, but I will give the weather another chance tomorrow.

I fixed the grill anyway. Completely rebuilt with OEM parts and good as new for $180.
It was very satisfying to see all those burners light up with a single press of the button. I'm good for another 5 or 6 years with that thing.

Thrifty!; 11/22/19, 9:28 PM
Automatic_Wing said...: That would require individuals to pay taxes annually on the appreciation of their investments, real estate and business holdings.

It's always funny to me that geniuses who dream up these fucking Ralph Kramden get rich quick schemes for the government don't think that people will change their behavior in response to their crazy new rules.; 11/22/19, 9:30 PM
Mark said...: The bill corrects “the most glaring injustice” of the tax code

Because justice, if it means anything, means the most obscenely wealthy entity in the history of humanity* shoving its grubby greedy hands into peoples' pockets to forcibly take more of their money.

* The U.S. federal government; 11/22/19, 9:30 PM
Seeing Red said...: I already pay taxes on real estate appreciation every year. It’s called Property Tax.; 11/22/19, 9:38 PM
Bill, Republic of Texas said...: Democratic Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Jan Schakowsky are working on legislation that would nearly double the top individual U.S. tax rate to 59% on the highest incomes.

Good. Let these rich liberals and rich Never Trumpets pay for the socialism they want to impose on us deplorables. I'm tired of the elite virtue signalling and expecting the Republicans to protect them from their choices.; 11/22/19, 9:45 PM
narciso said...: A counterpoint:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Shem_Infinite/status/1198028974770868225; 11/22/19, 9:56 PM
Danno said...: If Bernie or Elizabeth Warren are elected the market will tank. Can I expect a tax refund for the loss in my portfolios at the new federal tax rate?

Inquiring minds want to know.; 11/22/19, 9:58 PM
narciso said...: Wrong link

https://www.claremont.org/crb/article/the-tipping-point/; 11/22/19, 10:00 PM
JaimeRoberto said...: Marking to market would greatly increase compliance costs, crash the market, greatly reduce economic growth and therefore collect very little in taxes. But hey, justice.; 11/22/19, 10:08 PM
Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...: fun for any right-leaning Tulsi fans--

https://twitter.com/i/status/1198012735637708800; 11/22/19, 10:08 PM
Seeing Red said...: No, Danno. Once again the idea will be floated that we turn our retirement accounts over to Uncle Sam to make them whole, then Uncle Sam will manage them for us and the King (Uncle Sam) will decide what we should live on.; 11/22/19, 10:13 PM
mockturtle said...: Ocasio-Cortez of New York in January called for a significant increase in the top individual rate, suggesting that those making $10 million or more should pay a 70% tax rate. The 59% income-tax rate, combined with federal payroll levies and state and local taxes, means that top earners would be paying around 70%, Schakowsky said at an Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center event in Washington.

Looters gotta loot. It's what they do.; 11/22/19, 10:15 PM
narciso said...: Yes that sounds like theresa ghillarduccis scheme.; 11/22/19, 10:27 PM
Kathryn51 said...: Ken B said...
A JFK Democrat is, to the modern Democratic Party, a war criminal, a bigot, a sexist, a homophobe, a transphobe, an islamaphobe, a deplorable. Oh, and racist; that goes without saying.

Well, only if they are not hypocrites. One of my most vocal (as in hysterical) Trump Hatin' FB friends posted earlier today (on the anniversary of JFK's death) what a wonderful President he was, an example for all. It's like they are intentionally blind to JFK's treatment of women, his documented crude and vulgar talk (far worse than anything Trump has said - that we know of), his multiple foreign policy failures. Of course, this is a "boomer" FB friend - that might explain the "two movie" view of reality.; 11/22/19, 10:30 PM
readering said...: I recommend to all John Lewis Gaddis's The Cold War (2005). Staggering how many difficult decisions Harry Truman and his advisors had to make in the shadow of nuclear weapons.; 11/22/19, 10:40 PM
Ken B said...: Kathryn51
I should have specified “still alive”. Dead Democrats are saints of course.; 11/22/19, 10:40 PM
readering said...: And because of October 1962 JFK the most consequential president of my lifetime (which followed HT's presidency).; 11/22/19, 10:42 PM
Jaq said...: Giuliani better have the goods:

Rudy Giuliani@RudyGiuliani
If Shifty says it’s just a coincidence that he is invested in same companies that got $7b in laundered Ukrainian money will you believe him? Well maybe if he stepped down until he was investigated. If I was Independent Council I would be quick and fairer than Mueller.; 11/22/19, 11:24 PM
Lawrence Person said...: Enjoy a Friday LinkSwarm.; 11/22/19, 11:25 PM
Jaq said...: Fox Butterfield Alerit:

@walterolson
A @nytimes writer finds it "odd" that everyone loves @dollyparton even though she "has remained reluctant to make the slightest hint of a political statement," which wins the prize as the most New York Times-y sentiment of the week; 11/22/19, 11:27 PM
Jaq said...: Conspriacy Fact: Ukraine interfered in US election to harm Trump.

https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1198048105662431232; 11/22/19, 11:29 PM
StephenFearby said...: CNN
Exclusive: Giuliani associate [Lev Parnas] willing to tell Congress Nunes met with ex-Ukrainian official to get dirt on Biden [Evidently because he desperately needs a plea deal.]

November 22, 2019

'A lawyer for an indicted associate of Rudy Giuliani tells CNN that his client is willing to tell Congress about meetings the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee had in Vienna last year with a former Ukrainian prosecutor to discuss digging up dirt on Joe Biden.

The attorney, Joseph A. Bondy, represents Lev Parnas, the recently indicted Soviet-born American who worked with Giuliani to push claims of Democratic corruption in Ukraine. Bondy said that Parnas was told directly by the former Ukrainian official that he met last year in Vienna with Rep. Devin Nunes.

"Mr. Parnas learned from former Ukrainian Prosecutor General Victor Shokin that Nunes had met with Shokin in Vienna last December," said Bondy.'

'Nunes had told Shokin of the urgent need to launch investigations into Burisma, Joe and Hunter Biden, and any purported Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election," Bondy told CNN.'

'Parnas is currently under house arrest in Florida and has pleaded not guilty to charges of federal campaign finance fraud.'

'Over the past two weeks, CNN approached Nunes on two occasions and reached out to his communications staff to get comment for this story.'

'"To be perfectly clear, I don't acknowledge any questions from you in this lifetime or the next lifetime," Nunes said while leaving the impeachment hearing. "I don't acknowledge any question from you ever."'

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/22/politics/nunes-vienna-trip-ukrainian-prosecutor-biden/index.html

Wikipedia:

'...Parnas and Fruman were arrested on the evening of October 9, 2019, at Dulles International Airport, and charged with planning to direct funds from a foreign government "to U.S. politicians while trying to influence U.S.-Ukraine relations". They were arrested while trying to leave the United States. The reason for their arrest was described as a "complex web of financial and political interactions linking diplomacy to alleged violations of campaign finance law."[30] The head of the New York's FBI office described the investigation as "about corrupt behavior, deliberate lawbreaking".[8][7][30]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Parnas_and_Igor_Fruman

Indictment: https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/U.S.v.LevParnasetalIndictment.pdf

Exclusive — Devin Nunes to Sue CNN, Daily Beast over Fake News Attacks
22 Nov 2019

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/11/22/exclusive-devin-nunes-to-sue-cnn-daily-beast-over-fake-news-attacks/; 11/22/19, 11:30 PM
Jaq said...: Ukraine tried to defeat Trump because he was ‘Pro Russian’ Ha ha ha ha. I wonder if all of the money sloshing around Ukraine, there for the picking by grafters has led to the whole anti Russia bent of the Democratic Party?; 11/22/19, 11:33 PM
Jaq said...: Why is it illegal to investigate corruption by the former Vice President of the United States?; 11/22/19, 11:36 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: “If Bernie or Elizabeth Warren are elected the market will tank. Can I expect a tax refund for the loss in my portfolios at the new federal tax rate?”

So, what happens if, say, the stock market crashes at the same time as the economy crashes? Or, what happened starting in late 2008, when the housing crash pushes us into a recession? Tax revenues typically decline in a recession, but if the government now has to rebate the mark to market losses across the country in a recession, today’s deficit spending will look like a blip in comparison.; 11/23/19, 12:11 AM
cubanbob said...: Bruce Hayden, Seeing Red, Danno and all, three things you can bet the ranch on: if the House, Senate and Presidency go to these Communist loons there will be no rebate for mark to market and no capital gains loss deductions and Trump's cap on state and local taxes will remain. The country will be lucky if we only get into a Great Recession but more likely it will be a Great Depression and the world will follow us off the cliff. Someone is going to have to update Brother Can You Spare A Dime.; 11/23/19, 12:33 AM
n.n said...: A lot of coincidences accompany the first American President to confront the labor, environmental, and monetary arbitrage games of globalists. Not to mention immigration reform forced by social justice-mongers (e.g. elective wars, violent coups) and diversitists (e.g. racists, anti-nativists).; 11/23/19, 1:30 AM
gilbar said...: if the government now has to rebate the mark to market losses across the country

you mean with Liz's New PLAN?
I'm pretty sure the deal is:
If (this year) the market goes up; you owe taxes
If (this year) the market goes down; you don't owe as many taxes
No rebate; 11/23/19, 1:31 AM
gilbar said...: Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...
fun for any right-leaning Tulsi fans--
https://twitter.com/i/status/1198012735637708800

Thanx for posting the ICTARM!
It DOES seem like Tulsi should be the front runner! I think that we'd ALL like to get behind her
positions; 11/23/19, 1:46 AM
rehajm said...: The bill, which is still being drafted, also would increase capital gains rates to equalize them with income taxes and move to a so-called mark-to-market system. That would require individuals to pay taxes annually on the appreciation of their investments, real estate and business holdings.

So she’s raising the top INCOME tax bracket but this second part is confusing- cap gains is part of income tax but ‘mark to market’ and ‘taxes on the appreciation of their investments...’ sounds like a wealth tax scheme. Does she know she’s talking about two different things?

MTM for publicity traded equities is one thing but how would she and Liz want me to value my LLC or anyone their closely held business? Or unique assets like collectibles? If my business has a loss for the year where does the cash to pay for the asset come from- would I need to liquidate it by April 15? Who would have the cash to buy it?

I’m not sure they’ve thought things through...

Who government targets for a tax and who bears the burden of a tax are often very different. As rich households hemorrhage value it is the middle class that will lose their jobs, pension valuations will erode, the tax base will shrink and spiral. Investment capital will flee overseas.

Since Lefties made the rule you can defy laws you don’t like will red states declare themselves tax sanctuaries?
These people are dumb...do they not understand how compounding works?; 11/23/19, 2:52 AM
Big Mike said...: From where I sit Joe Biden has displaced Spiro Agnew as the most corrupt Vice President in my.lifetime.; 11/23/19, 3:56 AM
gilbar said...: i've been thinking (always a BAD THING), and i see what the demo's need to do

Their wealth tax thing is
A) complicated
B) unconstitutional, 'til the Demo's get the Senate and Presidency; so they can pack the court

So, HERE'S what they Could (and SHOULD!) do

1) scrap the wealth tax
2) don't worry about top bracket income tax
3) (here's THE KEY) raise the capital gains tax up to where it Should BE 100%

see? this one thing (#3) accomplishes EVERYTHING the demo's want
Rich people? won't be many in the United States after #3
over industrialization, CO2 emissions? Trust me, the Green New Deal has NOTHING on #3
people bitching about immigrants coming into the country? won't be many of them after #3

Just Raise the capital gains tax to 100%, and see america become EXACTLY what the demo's want:
a new Venezuela; 11/23/19, 4:01 AM
Big Mike said...: These people are dumb...do they not understand how compounding works?

@rehajm, math is hard.; 11/23/19, 4:21 AM
Danno said...: Rehajm said..."I’m not sure they’ve thought things through..."

The understatement of the century! I could come up with a better "plan" using a focus group consisting of third graders.; 11/23/19, 4:58 AM
Ralph L said...: One of the benefits of raising tax rates a lot is that the market price of loopholes rises even higher.; 11/23/19, 5:06 AM
tim maguire said...: Some years, appreciation on investments, including my house, is half or more of my pre-tax income. I’d have to sell the house to pay it. Can you imagine what would happen to the economy if 10’s of millions of people had to sell even just 10% of their investments at the end of every year in order to get the money to pay taxes on their gains?

Who could save for retirement under these conditions?; 11/23/19, 6:15 AM
stlcdr said...: Blogger Seeing Red said...
I already pay taxes on real estate appreciation every year. It’s called Property Tax.

11/22/19, 9:38 PM
Ah but it’s not going to the federal government, because, you know, that’s the only government that counts.

The irony is that trump already has put us on the path to putting a fairer (sic) amount into federal coffers by limiting state tax payment Deductions. The howling from those in the blue states with high state taxes was deafening.; 11/23/19, 6:41 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: “So she’s raising the top INCOME tax bracket but this second part is confusing- cap gains is part of income tax but ‘mark to market’ and ‘taxes on the appreciation of their investments...’ sounds like a wealth tax scheme. Does she know she’s talking about two different things? “

But what happens if they define income to include Mark to Market gains? I don’t think that the Constitutional Amdt providing for an income tax is that specific, that Mark to Market gains wouldn’t fit under it.

I have spent the last couple years watching Lawfare and how they work, and that is, II think, how they would operate. They almost inevitably separate text for context before reinterpreting existing laws.; 11/23/19, 6:45 AM
Anonymous said...: Seeing Red: It’s arrogant to think nurses and electricians aren’t investors.

Probably more ignorant than arrogant. A lot of people with retirement accounts don't seem to understand that they belong to the investor class.

No, Danno. Once again the idea will be floated that we turn our retirement accounts over to Uncle Sam to make them whole, then Uncle Sam will manage them for us and the King (Uncle Sam) will decide what we should live on.

That's what they're really itching to do. (Keep an eye out for pundits explaining why the possession of 401(k)s and IRAs is the product of "white privilege"...); 11/23/19, 7:02 AM
Jersey Fled said...: Just out of curiosity, is there any country that has a Mark to market capital gains tax? Or is this an AOC original.

I'm not talking about one on assets, but one on phantom capital gains.; 11/23/19, 7:23 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I noted, I think, that SJWs on one campus prevented Art Laffer from speaking. I remember thinking WTF. He’s an old man now. What could he have done that was so horrible that the leftists wouldn’t want anyone listening to what he has to say. The discussion here about raising tax rates through the roof may provide the answer.

The story goes that at one point during the Ford Administration, nearing 45 years ago, he met was supposed to meet with one young staffer, one Don Rumsfeld for a meal. When Rumsfeld had to cancel, he sent his assistant, one Dick Cheney. Laffer then, on a napkin, illustrated what became known as the Laffer Curve, which essentially says that there is a tax rate that optimizes tax receipts. The amount of taxes collected drops off in both directions from that point, both when you cut taxes and, more importantly, when you raise them.

I suspect that this is the heresy that those young college militants want stamped out. And that is because leftist whack jobs like AOC want to raise taxes well into the area of the Laffer Curve where there is a significant drop in tax income as the tax rate is raised. Which means that, at least for the more intelligent of the backers of their tax plans, the purpose of their tax increases isn’t really to raise tax revenues to pay for their new multi trillion dollar programs, but rather enforcing social equality of results by bringing the net worth and net income of the middle class down to the level of the lower classes.

AOC (and Bernie) admit their socialism. But what about other proponents of this sort of economics, like Fauxhauntis Warren? I was reminded of Animal Farm, by George Orwell, where the 7th commandment morphed into "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others". This is essentially forced by taxing the middle class, and letting friends and family of the leaders skim from the take (as we saw with Hunter Biden).; 11/23/19, 7:28 AM
Jersey Fled said...: BTW would DOC's tax apply to money in retirement accounts? If so,get out the pitchforks.; 11/23/19, 7:32 AM
Jersey Fled said...: I hate spellcheck.; 11/23/19, 7:32 AM
Michael K said...: I'm reading an excellent book by HW Brands, "The President & The General"

Brands is a good historian but a hard lefty. His biography of Roosevelt, "A Traitor to his class," was good about his early life but became unreadable once it got to the Depression. It was "The Age of Roosevelt" with all the lefty dogma unchallenged.

The bio before that was good. I'm sure he hates MacA as a right winger.; 11/23/19, 8:33 AM
Michael K said...: I think the point about the Laffer Curve is a good one but it's hard to believe that college students know that much these days.; 11/23/19, 8:34 AM
Seeing Red said...: Lolol that Dolly comment. We saw her before the 2016 election. She made the comment 2 boobs are running.; 11/23/19, 10:54 AM
Birkel said...: Ken B,

You are a lying heel.

I doubt I've written a single word about Truman until this very sentence.

Ken B is a liar.
Adjust accordingly.; 11/23/19, 11:54 AM
Big Mike said...: The Laffer Curve is simply an elementary application of Rolle's Theorem. But maths is hard (and oppresses minorities) so people on the left do not get that A. Theorem. Is. Something. That. Is. Always. True. Not true unless you want it otherways. Not true unless a Democrat is in the White House. Always. True.

I lost all respect for Megan McArdle when she tried to argue that maybe it wasn't true because maybe you would still collect taxes at 100% taxation rates because people might still work just for the fun of working. So Megan, sweetheart (sweat hard?) set the upper limit to 105%. There is some point where we normal people entirely stop paying for goods and services and revert to barter, hence zero tax income.

What Rolle's Theorem states is that if you have a real-valued, continuously differentiable function that has the same value at two different points, then there is some point between where the tangent is zero (i.e., a minimum or maximum). If there are two tax rates that generate zero tax income (a rate of zero and a rate of 105% do nicely), then there must be a minimum or a maximum somewhere between them. Since there is no tax rate that produces less than zero, it must be a maximum. Where is that point? Since Trump cut taxes and produced more tax revenue, it follows that the tax rate set during the Obama administration must have been to the right of the maximum.; 11/23/19, 11:56 AM
Michael K said...: she tried to argue that maybe it wasn't true because maybe you would still collect taxes at 100% taxation rates because people might still work just for the fun of working. So Megan, sweetheart (sweat hard?) set the upper limit to 105%.

This actually happened in Sweden when the Socialists were running things. They had a tax bracket that went to 106% at the top. Since doctors have trouble hiding income and they were all government employees at the time, doctors were most affected. The high earning, senior doctors hit the 106% bracket about October 1. What did they do ? They left for warmer weather. You could not get to see a senior doctor until January.; 11/23/19, 12:09 PM
Michael K said...: Ken B is a liar.
Adjust accordingly.

I think the theory that he is a MOBY is probably correct.

Else, why the nastiness ?; 11/23/19, 12:10 PM
Big Mike said...: Forget I wrote my comment. I don’t want to give Bernie and whiter-than-white bread Lizzy any ideas.; 11/23/19, 12:16 PM