October 28, 2019

"'It was on brand in the sense that Trump allowed his inner showman to make this a spectacle rather than a solemn moment of acknowledgment and a reflection — the way President Obama did'..."

"... said Ned Price, a CIA officer at the time of bin Laden’s death who later served as a spokesman for the National Security Council under Obama.... Obama spoke of the anguish of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, emphasized the nation’s resolve in recovering, and praised the skill of the intelligence experts who tracked bin Laden down and the courage of the Special Forces who killed him. He also took a measure of credit. 'I determined that we had enough intelligence to take action, and authorized an operation to get Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice,' said a president who was routinely assailed by Republicans as weak and feckless on foreign affairs. He took no questions from reporters. By contrast, the Trump show on Baghdadi started with a tweet. 'Something very big has just happened!' the president posted on social media Saturday evening, and the White House media office quickly announced that Trump would make a 'major announcement' — 11 hours later at 9 a.m. Sunday. Critics speculated that the president was eager to upstage the Sunday morning political talk shows in a bid to drown out coverage of the House Democrats’ impeachment effort against him...."

From "In creating spectacle around Baghdadi’s death, Trump departs from Obama’s more measured tone on bin Laden" (WaPo).

In so many ways, Trump is not like Obama. But I presume that each man — on the success of a raid that killed a feared terrorist enemy — made a public display that he believed would advance American military interests and his own political interests. Obama chose to be circumspect and conventionally presidential. After hearing Trump, who was vividly emotional, I relistened to Obama's announcement, and I was struck by the restraint — the blandness. There was nothing about how bin Laden looked or acted as he faced his death. Obama seemed to want to inspire confidence that everything was done with precise correctness. Trump seemed to want us to experience the righteous anger and the vengeance and contempt. These are radically different choices from 2 very different men.

Remember that the Obama administration made a point of communicating with the world about the respectful treatment of bin Laden's corpse:
"Traditional procedures for Islamic burial was followed... The deceased's body was washed (ablution) then placed in a white sheet. The body was placed in a weighted bag. A military officer read prepared religious remarks, which were translated into Arabic by a native speaker. After the words were complete, the body was placed on a prepared flat board, tipped up, whereupon the deceased's body slid into the sea.''
And remember that Trump has openly talked about treating the enemy's bodies with outrageous disrespect:
"Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!," he tweeted. That was after "The United States condemns the terror attack in Barcelona, Spain, and will do whatever is necessary to help. Be tough & strong, we love you!"...

"They were having terrorism problems [in the Philippines], just like we do," Trump said, according to a February 2016 account in the Washington Post. "And he caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage and killed many people. And he took the 50 terrorists, and he took 50 men and he dipped 50 bullets in pigs’ blood — you heard that, right? He took 50 bullets, and he dipped them in pigs’ blood. And he had his men load his rifles, and he lined up the 50 people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said: You go back to your people, and you tell them what happened. And for 25 years, there wasn’t a problem. Okay? Twenty-five years, there wasn’t a problem."
That's quoted in a blog post of mine in August 2017. I commented:
[Trump] thinks its a good idea to let radical Muslim terrorists know we might mess with their dead bodies in a way that he (presumably) thinks they think will wreck their afterlife. He might think that threat will influence the terrorists, but not necessarily. He might just think that he had a cheeky tweet to entertain his fans and confound his MSM antagonists. 

203 comments:

1 – 200 of 203   Newer›   Newest»
Marcus Bressler said...

Best. President. Ever.

THEOLDMAN

Word has it that Obama and Hillary will be speaking at the austere religious scholar's funeral (seen elsewhere)

gilbar said...

Our Beloved Professor Althouse said...
I relistened to Obama's announcement, and I was struck by the restraint — the blandness. There was nothing about how bin Laden looked or acted as he faced his death. Obama seemed to want to inspire confidence that everything was done with precise correctness.

Well; You know, If you were Born a Moslem; you'd be unhappy about having to terminate an Islamic Warrior. If, for political reasons, you Had to do it; you'd want people to know you did it with precise correctness

If you were a slimy scumbag; that served a President, that was Born a Moslem, as Nation Security Council spokesman.... And you'd spent that career sucking said President's cock; you'd want to belittle other Presidents, that weren't so Obviously anti- american

whitney said...

I think it's funny that you were struck by the blandness of Obama. I always felt like he cast some sort of spell on people that had to be maintained by regular doses of his insouciant monotone but now that he's gone away the spell has lifted so when you see him again you wonder what all the hype is about.

gspencer said...

"In so many ways, Trump is not like Obama"

Yeah, with Trump we have a president who's being faithful to his oath of office and the Constitution which necessarily means America First.

Obama the leftist, the internationalist, was not an American in the heart. Fundamentally changing America was and remains his aim.

rhhardin said...

Cultural insensitivity reduces the enemies' hopes for gains. Strategic.

rehajm said...

Obama read something stoic then took every opportunity to spike the football.

Trump wants the bad guys to carry the pigskin into what awaits them.

sdharms said...

yeah, and the respectful treatment worked so well.(sarc) Obama was a liar, a celebrator of treason (bergdahl), a Muslim himself.
Screw it. The Black Jack Pershing method works for me -- lets try that for a while.

henry said...

ISIS recruits on a terrorist as Islamic hero meme. Trump gave a counter meme, calling the head of the terrorists a sniveling dog. Dogs are haram and don't go to paradise, don't get the virgins (or raisins or whatever).

Same as his tweets, Trump uses ideas to fight..

MikeR said...

Hmm. I remember people talking a lot about how brave Pres. Obama had been to go ahead with the attack. And it was a major selling point in the 2012 campaign. "Bin Laden dead..."
This is just an issue of style and sales technique. Mr. Obama tended to let others do the emoting. So what?

Laslo Spatula said...

Trump seemed genuinely offended by the horrible things Baghdadi had done, and the lives that had been affected.

There are others who will have the solemn moment of acknowledgement and reflection for the passing of an austere scholar.

Something for everyone.

I am Laslo.

James K said...

How about Hillary's, "We came, we saw, he died!" (cackle, cackle)?

MayBee said...

I remember Obama also had reserved the website GutsyCall.com

John henry said...

How do we know Osama was killed in that raid?

A serious question that has never been answered.

The ONLY thing we have is Obama's say-so.

Nobody else has ever talked about it. (because of ndas)

John Henry

Narayanan said...

At the time my recommendation would have been to simply doxx Osama bin Laden and let Pakistan handle fallout : pilgrimage or riot.

And observe.

alanc709 said...

If Trump had said that each ISIS fighter would be buried with a piece of bacon in his mouth, I'd have applauded.

Laslo Spatula said...

There sure are a lot of CIA and Intelligence Community folk available to talk to the media these past years about how Trump is doing it wrong.

It's almost like these stalwarts were politically-driven functionaries all along.

I guess that's OK, though, with all the grand-slam successes they have had.

They are truly the Fine Captains of Capsized Boats.

I am Laslo.

Jersey Fled said...

I continue to be amazed at the depths liberals will go to discredit anything that Trump does, regardless of how praiseworthy it may be.

And the depths that the media will go to assist them.

Have we ever seen psychosis like this on such a grand scale?

Tom T. said...

"Sir, we've got to abort the mission -- the Sunday talk shows are sacrosanct!"

Seriously, has this person not noticed that Trump leans heavily into the impeachment at every opportunity, because it energizes Republicans and makes big stupid bank for him?

Narayanan said...

Mughal tradition in India was to raze Hindu temple, slaughter cow on site and then build their mosque.

Jersey Fled said...

I am also reminded of Hillary's "we came, we saw, he died" quote.

Classy.

traditionalguy said...

War is the art of killing the enemy in horrible ways until he quits killing you in horrible ways. Deterrence of war is showing the enemy that you have the weapons and the elite trained forces that use them commanded by a Commander that has the will to have them kill in horrible ways. Ergo: DJT gets an A+

JPS said...

rehajm,

"Obama read something stoic then took every opportunity to spike the football."

He was also content to be modest and take little credit while subordinates and the press talked him up. "Gutsy call" was in an awful lot of headlines. Biden said you could go back 500 years and not find a more audacious plan.

tim in vermont said...

Dick Cheney put together the means to kill bin Laden and Obama was slightly disgusted with it. Hillary stiffened his spine in her one act of patriotism.

tim in vermont said...

They are basically impeaching Trump for keeping his promises.

daskol said...

Bland is lovely.

daskol said...

Susan Rice, apparently inspired by Trump's loose style with language, cuts through the blandness and calls Lindsay Graham a piece of shit. It's like human scum, in that it's meant to indicate and instigate disgust, it's just blander.

Gunner said...

I never understood what Obama hoped to gain by that "respectful funeral treatment" crap. I am pretty sure Muslims dont like their corpses being dumped into the ocean with no family around either.

Amadeus 48 said...

1.What rehajm said at 6:35.

2.Ted Williams used to hit into the shift.

3. Don't you remember John Brennan within 48 hours blabbing all over the place on TV the operational details of the Bin Laden raid and beating his chest on Obama's greatness, wisdom, and courage?

4.Can you imagine Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren taking Obama's tone? Never.

5. Trump is a great showman. Always think PT Barnum.

6. I'll be booing every Democrat on offer from here on out--and in Chicago there are a lot of them. Trump's here today. The CPS teachers, who are on strike, are free to join the resistance. It should be a great rush hour.

Amadeus 48 said...

JPS--He (Obama) was also willing to appear modest while subordinates and the press talked him up in disgusting, fawning sycophancy. "Gutsy call" was in an awful lot of headlines. Biden said you could go back 500 years and not find a more audacious plan.

FIFY

Fernandinande said...

It's almost as if Obama was sympathetic to the crazy Islamists.

Freder Frederson said...

It is shocking that advocating war crimes (desecrating bodies, stealing oil), is excused as just Trump being Trump. Our nation should be better than that.

War is the art of killing the enemy in horrible ways until he quits killing you in horrible ways. Deterrence of war is showing the enemy that you have the weapons and the elite trained forces that use them commanded by a Commander that has the will to have them kill in horrible ways.

If you really believe this you are a despicable human being.

MayBee said...

Obama and Brennan also used Bin Laden's death to pretend terrorism was over, and thus missed the rise of ISIS.

The really interesting thing to me was on Twitter, Pete Sousa (Obama's photographer) posted a picture of the men in Trump's situation room and said it was staged due to time stamps. It spread all over Twitter and I have Facebook friends reposting it. He was wrong about the timing of the raid, of course. But first of all, what would it mean to people if the photo *was* staged*. And second, WTF Pete Sousa?

Qwinn said...

The way Osama's body was gotten rid of so quickly and secretively... I have always suspected there was something going on there. If we later found out that he was never killed at all, but rather was allowed to retire quietly somewhere, I really wouldn't be surprised at all. The notion that our media wouldn't let him get away with such a thing is laughable.

daskol said...

Trump is colorful., a florid speaker of florid language, often speaking from Florida. That's a stark contrast to his bland opponents: Schiff is pasty white despite coming from a sunny district, and uses multisyllabic word clouds to confer a bland legitimacy to his shenanigans. Pelosi, only a twinge of her Baltimore accent remaining, has bleached the local color from her speech. Trump's blandest critic of all may be Hakeem Jefferies, who is studiously boring and looks like he's reading a teleprompter when he recites boring talking points on the Sunday shows. These are colorful characters who still think bland is the brand.

daskol said...

They're all fakers. Bland is what you go for when you're afraid people can't handle the truth about you.

William said...

I was just watching Morning Joe. In one section of the show they claimed that al-Baghdadi's death means nothing--that after the death of Osama was when ISIS was founded. In the following section of the show, they explained that Trump's disparagement of Baghdadi will cause more Moslems to take up arms against us.....I don't understand. If we kill Osama in a respectful, halal way, then we end up with ISIS. If, however, we kill Baghdadi in a boastful way, then Moslems will be encouraged to take up arms.

Phil 314 said...

When will we stop being surprised that Trump is NOT Obama?

PS Neither Obama nor Trump killed terrorist leaders. Special Ops men did

tim in vermont said...

If it was a “gutsy call” to attempt to kill bin Laden, it makes one wonder about the guts of the person saying that. Obama was a “take no prisoners” kind of president. Literally, his style was to just kill them, keep the numbers down at Guantanamo. That seems a lot like something that might have been frowned on were it examined in any serious legal way with regards to the Geneva Conventions. They ordered him killed, he wasn’t given the opportunity to surrender and have his say to an international audience, Adolph Eichman style. Too politically inconvenient. Just execute him extrajudicially on the spot!

tim in vermont said...

The Washington Post wishes we had an austere cleric as POTUS, and would even overlook the rape harems, if the guy would only consent to having a ‘D’ after his name and keep the graft flowing!

Michael K said...

There sure are a lot of CIA and Intelligence Community folk available to talk to the media these past years about how Trump is doing it wrong.

Boy, is that right !

policraticus said...

I seem to remember raucous celebratory crowds filling Pennsylvania Avenue cheering Obama and loudly, happily, joyfully revelling in the death of Osama Bin Laden. I also remember that "GM is alive and Bin Laden is dead." being touted as a reason to reelect him. I also remember TV talking heads and other Administration shills endlessly intoning that Obama showed courage, bravery, audacity, sheer guts and, I don't know, hutzpah, in ordering the strike on Abbottabad.

Yes, Obama's proverbial pant leg remained perfectly creased, but that doesn't mean he didn't exploit the death of a religious scholar, freedom fighter against the USSR, and father of twenty-six with equal vigor.

Kevin said...

Trump was being polite by not mentioning Obama had this guy in his sights and didn’t pull the trigger.

By Trump standards that’s pretty restrained.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

we should be sensitive to the death of terrorists.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

This is the difference.

Trump is a Clan Leader in the traditional sense. A Scottish Clan leader who relies on the support of the people. He relies on emotion and connecting with his people. Without the support, respect and even love of his people he is powerless and just another man. This requires more than just issuing edicts and wearing a nice suit. It requires sacrifice and an emotional connection. The Clan leader also stands on the front lines and takes the heat in battle. Like Trump said. "They are really coming for you, I am just in the way." He suffers along with his Clan and earns their respect and even love because is is equal to them and they are equal to him.

Obama is a figurehead representing an elite group the Board of Directors...politically important donors. CEO of a corporation. More concerned with his own office, position, legacy, and the outward paraphernalia of being the CEO. The CEO doesn't really care that much about what happens to the subordinates in his organization. He actually doesn't even care that much about the organization itself either and is willing to let it fail or to change into something unrecognizable in order to create it in his image. Gillette is a prime recent example of this destruction of an organization. If the subordinates suffer and even die it doesn't matter because they are just cogs in the machine.

Trump is a Clan Leader of the people. Obama is a CEO of an organization.

Do you want to be part of a Clan or a Cog in the machine?

Koot Katmandu said...

Former CIA and there is no deep state. Ha.

Freder Frederson said...

War is the art of killing the enemy in horrible ways until he quits killing you in horrible ways. Deterrence of war is showing the enemy that you have the weapons and the elite trained forces that use them commanded by a Commander that has the will to have them kill in horrible ways.

If this statement were even close to reality, there would have been no Nuremberg Trials or de-nazification of Germany.

Ralph L said...

Mr. Obama tended to let others do the emoting

He also let Panetta make the decision to go, IIRC.

Darrell said...

Remember the poorly photoshopped pictures showing Obama in the make-shift Situation Room, making him look too small, out-of-scale? The ones where I used my "If Obama had a son. . ." meme to skewer him? What were the rumors? That Obama was on the golf course and Val Jar made the call.

Yeah. Good Times.

gilbar said...

whitney said...
I think it's funny that you were struck by the blandness of Obama. I always felt like he cast some sort of spell on people that had to be maintained by regular doses of his insouciant monotone but now that he's gone away the spell has lifted so when you see him again you wonder what all the hype is about.


I called O'Bama Saruman years ago!
another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the word that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them.... For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spoke to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it.

The Two Towers Book III Chapter X p.222


Michael K said...

If this statement were even close to reality, there would have been no Nuremberg Trials or de-nazification of Germany.

Field Marshal Freder weighs in on a topic that he knows nothing about, again.

Drago said...

The Ever More Pathetic Bundy Case Liar Freder: "It is shocking that advocating war crimes (desecrating bodies, stealing oil), is excused as just Trump being Trump. Our nation should be better than that."

LOL

Field Marshall Freder literally believes mass murdering terrorists who behead women and children and enslave others fall under the Geneva Convention!!!

I think what Susan Rice said about Lindsay Graham actually applies to Noted Liar Freder.

Thanks for playing today Freder. ISIS greatly appreciates your dhimmitude-like elevating of their status.

Michael K said...

Field Marshal Freder also seems to ignore that the Nuremberg trials had nothing to do with killing the opponents' soldiers.

It was related to killing noncombatants, including soldiers that had surrendered.

Field Marshal Freder doesn't know much about the military but that does not stop him from making a fool of himself

Ron Winkleheimer said...

If this statement were even close to reality, there would have been no Nuremberg Trials or de-nazification of Germany.

I was unaware that the Nuremberg Trials and the de-nazification of Germany was what won the war. I was under the impression that the war was won using overwhelming force to kill 2 - 4 million Germans in who were in military service and a couple of hundred thousand (at least) German civilians. All this time I thought the Nuremberg Trials and de-nazification was a result of winning WWII.

Drago said...

This terrorist POS that Freder is going to bat for in a bigly way burned people alive in cages, murdered parents in front of their children, murdered children in front of their parents, threw gays off roofs, cut appendages off children, kidnapped and tortured women and enslaved them in ISIS "marriages"....and on and on it goes.

Imagine being Freder and ARM and readering and HoaxPPT and sunsong and all the others and going to bat for those guys just to try and own a news cycle against Trump and denigrate an achievement in the run up to an election.

This makes the dems open support of illegal MS13 machete murderers almost pale in comparison.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

In regards to Bidens' "most audacious plan in 500 years" statement and for Freder.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=97sl4Tlc&id=D4D048614A018BAC415F39750A55941AF9F3C262&thid=OIP.97sl4TlcetCrYojjCeI9jwHaEv&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fi.imgflip.com%2f1d6814.jpg&exph=500&expw=780&q=we+wil+kill+you+in+your+sleep+on+christmas&simid=608021919261132537&selectedIndex=5&ajaxhist=0

Hagar said...

If this statement were even close to reality, there would have been no Nuremberg Trials or de-nazification of Germany.

Huh?
Totally irrelevant. I would say that terror bombing, especially when you have total control of the air, indeed is meant to show the enemy that you have the means and the will to kill him in horrible ways.

Dave Begley said...

I certainly hope President Trump's verbatim message gets through to the Islamists in the Middle East. This loser died a horrible death. And what kind of life did he live hiding all the time and knowing that one day the United States Armed Forces would either kill or capture him? How hot is it in a suicide vest? And then knowing that you may have to use it.

Islam is a failed and horrible culture. When will these people realize it? They can't beat us and we will hunt them down like dogs.

I know that we stopped body counts after Vietnam, but I imagine we have them somewhere. If we released them the NYT and WaPo would attack them as inaccurate.

Beasts of England said...

’It is shocking that advocating war crimes...’

You’re really gonna hate it when we start playing Cowboys and Commies!!

Dave Begley said...

DBQ:

Excellent analysis.

And the CEO is out for himself. He'll sell the company and see employees lose their jobs as long as he gets a big payout.

gilbar said...

Biden said you could go back 500 years and not find a more audacious plan.
Hmmm; As Al Smith would say, lets take a look at the record?

More Audacious Plan that worked:
Cutting Your Own Lines of Communication and Invading Georgia
-- Uncle Billy and the Army of the Tennessee

EVEN More Audacious Plan that DID NOT Work:
Cutting Your Own Lines of Communication and Invading Tennessee
-- John Bell Hood and the Army of Tennessee

Drago said...

Hagar: "Huh?
Totally irrelevant. I would say that terror bombing, especially when you have total control of the air, indeed is meant to show the enemy that you have the means and the will to kill him in horrible ways."

Dresden.

Field Marshall Freder: What's that?

John henry said...


Blogger Freder Frederson said...

It is shocking that advocating war crimes (desecrating bodies, stealing oil), is excused as just Trump being Trump. Our nation should be better than that.

"Stealing oil"? Really Freder?

How much oil does the US get from or through Syria? ("Follow the Pipes")

Why would we "steal" their oil? Seems to me that we are simply helping the legitimate owners of the oil protect it. We might discuss whether or why we should be doing that but "Stealing oil"? That is a new level of stupid.

John Henry

Freder Frederson said...

This terrorist POS that Freder is going to bat for in a bigly way burned people alive in cages, murdered parents in front of their children, murdered children in front of their parents, threw gays off roofs, cut appendages off children, kidnapped and tortured women and enslaved them in ISIS "marriages"....and on and on it goes.

How does anything I wrote, either in this thread or any other, constitute going to bat for this terrorist POS? My criticism is of the President. No matter how bad the terrorist is, it does not justify war crimes on our part.

JPS said...

Freder Frederson, 7:54:

"If you really believe this you are a despicable human being."

Describing the horrible essence of war does not make one a despicable human being. If I try to come up with an alternative definition to traditionalguy's, I can just about hear General Sherman's retort.

Freder Frederson said...

It was related to killing noncombatants, including soldiers that had surrendered.

The way I interpreted traditionalguy's statement, he does not appear to be differentiating between combatants and non-combatants. And even he was just referring to combatants, we, through international treaties, have banned many horrible ways of killing the enemy.

John henry said...


Blogger Ralph L said...

He also let Panetta make the decision to go, IIRC.

Yup.

That way if it had gone sideways Obama would have been out of the loop. Same reason he was playing cards while it was going on and not directly involved in any decisions.

It's the Obama way

John Henry

bagoh20 said...

As in all things, Trump is just more effective. An enemy is much more dissuaded by his style. They may talk big in response, which they do with both styles, but Trump's is definitely more intimidating. I've always been one who admires stoicism, but neither man possesses it. Obama was simply doing his style of showing off, and I remember him and his supporters using the Bin Laden mission often as one of his greatest accomplishments. One that took him a long time to decide to do, despite it's obvious needing done. Our enemies saw that too, and it gave them confidence. With Trump, they know there will be no hesitation, unless it makes strategic sense. In other words, they know he will do what needs done to win bigly.

Freder Frederson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Birkel said...

Freder Frederson is confused about the Geneva Convention.

bagoh20 said...

Yes, that's spot on, DBQ. Nice.

Kay said...

So now America is debating about which president gave the best kill speech. Wow!

John henry said...

Blogger Freder Frederson said...

If this statement were even close to reality, there would have been no Nuremberg Trials

So you do not think the Nuremburg trials, rigged to the max to achieve a guilty verdict, were a war crime, Freder?

It would have been much more honest to have taken the defendants out and shot them, as Churchill wanted to do. He was worried that if it were a fair trial, under US/British principles, they might have been found not guilty. Then what do you do, let them go free?

So the trials were rigged to make sure that would not happen.

They were a charade for appearances sake.

John Henry

bagoh20 said...

"If this statement were even close to reality,"

Let's hear an argument for why any of the statement is not true - even any small piece of the statement.

gilbar said...

Freddy Frederson said...
War is the art of killing the enemy in horrible ways until he quits killing you in horrible ways
If this statement were even close to reality, there would have been no Nuremberg Trials or de-nazification of Germany.


Freddy, people are picking on youl so i've come to help you out
But 1st, i need to make sure i understand your 'logic'

Of ALL the War, that has EVER been; Only the War against Nazi Germany resulted in Nuremberg Trials

According to You (just making SURE, that i understand it?):
The Gallic Wars of Julius Caesar.... WEREN'T Wars?

Hmmm, that was a LONG time ago; maybe you're saying, in the Immortal Words of S. E. Hinton, that "That was Then, This is Now"? SO let's look closer

According to You (just making SURE, that i understand it?):
The Meetinghouse raids of March 1945, by the XXth Airforce.... Weren't Wars?
Still TOO OLD?
Hmmm

According to You (just making SURE, that i understand it?):
The America Single Integrated Operational Plans (1963-2003)... Weren't plans for WAR?

Seriously, What IS it that You are trying to argue? i'm dizzy trying to follow it?
Maybe THIS QUOTE, will help YOU:
"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell."

Any idea who said that Freddy? I'll give you a hint; it's someone that, According to YOU, did NOT Practice War. About a hundred thousand southern souls, would beg to differ




Now that i think about it;

MountainMan said...

‘War is the art of killing the enemy in horrible ways until he quits killing you in horrible ways. Deterrence of war is showing the enemy that you have the weapons and the elite trained forces that use them commanded by a Commander that has the will to have them kill in horrible ways.”

Correct. The war against Japan was brought to a rapid end once we had demonstrated - to the Emperor, at least - that we could kill them faster, easier, and at less cost to ourselves in manpower and materiel - than they could kill us.

And terrorists are not protected by the Geneva Conventions, I don’t believe.

Leland said...

It is always a good idea when speaking about war outside of the actual war zone to use a somber tone. I expect Trump to be Trump. I'm sure some will claim this was the moment they quit supporting Trump, but I wouldn't buy anything else that person was selling. Same for those claiming the killing of al-Baghdadi changed their mind and now they'll support Trump. At the end of the day, the caliph running around killing or enslaving people has been removed from this planet. I count that as a good thing.

Wince said...

One thing Obama didn't have to do is make clear to the world why and how three children had died in the raid.

Trump has to explain in the immediate aftermath how those three children died at the hand of Baghdadi.

How do you do that other than to describe the inglorious demise of a coward?

etbass said...

"War is the art of killing the enemy in horrible ways until he quits killing you in horrible ways. Deterrence of war is showing the enemy that you have the weapons and the elite trained forces that use them commanded by a Commander that has the will to have them kill in horrible ways."

Freder, have you forgotten about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Sounds like a pretty good example of Trad guy's statement.

rcocean said...

Aren't you missing the obvious point? Obama Senior was a "atheist Muslim" and B.O.'s step-father was a muslim, and he went to Islamic School - for a while - in Indonesia. Hence, B.O. had a lot sympathy for the Islamic religion and people's and wanted their respect and friendship. Trump is a plain old American, who doesn't care, he just wants them to stop doing terrorism.

There's also the liberal vs. Conservative viewpoint. Liberals get VERY worked up over torture of terrorists, and this sort feeling bleeds into not wanting kill them, or wanting to hit soft. Its an interesting view into their psyche,, that they cared more about a few terrorists at Gitmo than about 12,000 murders in the USA. They wanked on for YEARS about it, and judging by the NYT/WaPo, thought it the most important issue ever.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Our next Dem president will make Oct. 26 a national day of mourning.

Michael K said...

More on Obama creeps bemoaning the death of the terrorist.

Barack Obama’s former Ambassador to Qatar, Dana Shell Smith, was furious – not at the man who had committed mass murder of innumerable innocent civilians, and had sanctioned the seizure of non-Muslim women and their use at sex slaves, but at the man who oversaw his killing. She tweeted: “This gruesome, vivid and probably exaggerated description of dogs chasing down Baghdadi will endanger our personnel in the region. When bin Laden was killed, we were careful to be clear that he had been given a proper Muslim burial. Not because we gave a damn about him but because it was important for our relationships in the region and safety of our military and diplomats.”

What a shame. Qatar is a terrorist funding source we should not have any connection with. Bush moved out middle east headquarters there from Saudi.

stevew said...

"Our nation should be better than that."

Yes, we should endeavor to treat people that, as Drago says: burn people alive in cages, murder parents in front of their children, murder children in front of their parents, throw gays off roofs, cut appendages off children, kidnap and torture women and enslaved them in ISIS "marriages" with the respect that they deserve.

Which we have done with this Bagdahdi fella. This is our nation being the best that it can be, protecting the innocent by ridding the world of evil.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Only in the twisted mind of the corruption excusing left would they FEEL that terrorists deserve dignity and "solemn moments"

Then again - these are the same people who excuse and cover for FISA court abuses and all sorts of international money grubbing from the Clitnons and the Bidens.

Ken B said...

We should only launch such missions when they are the right thing to do. When they are right we should say so. It is that — saying America did the right thing — which enrages the Left. I really liked Trump's statement. Contempt is the right response to Baghdadi. Contempt and a bullet.

TJM said...

Obama was a pro-Muslim loon who created ISIS and the Muslim invasion of Europe through his feckless policies in the Mideast

MayBee said...

Also, Obama allowed A HOLLYWOOD MOVIE to have access to top secret information to make Zero Dark Thirty about the Obama raid. Hahhahahahha Obama was so very modest.

Freder Frederson said...

Excellent analysis.

And the CEO is out for himself. He'll sell the company and see employees lose their jobs as long as he gets a big payout.


Excellent analysis by DBQ?! Really?!

In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?

SayAahh said...

Would have been even better if Trump had the austere religious scholar lynched.

Leslie Graves said...

I observed this event by re-reading the accounts of Baghdadi’s many abuses of Kayla Mueller.

Danno said...

Dead radical Islamists should be fed to the pigs. But then, pork would truly become unclean, as certain religions already believe.

narciso said...

ned price was one of susan rices staffers, that was shoehorned into the company, as part of the selling of the iran deal

https://legalinsurrection.com/

Big Mike said...

I continue to be amazed at the depths liberals will go to discredit anything that Trump does, regardless of how praiseworthy it may be.

And the depths that the media will go to assist them.

Have we ever seen psychosis like this on such a grand scale?


@Jersey Fled, a fellow named Lincoln in 1860 to 1865.

narciso said...

actually trump has been pulling to disengage from al udeid, even though south Carolina, has become more enmeshed in Qatar's affairs, they relocated to Qatar, when we left our bases in Saudi, which we're returning to in part, Qatar supports the muslim brotherhood in Iraq, like the new Islamic state candidate, quarqash, one of those secular saddam officers (sarc) from the Islamic university of mosul,

Howard said...

Trump is ruled by his little mushroom cap in the shadow cast by Barack " Long Don't Silver" Obama.

It's exactly why he is loved by cucks and chickenhawks

narciso said...

an interesting detail, maya (Chastain's character in zd 30) is based on alfreda bikowksy, who was outed by Valerie plame, in the aftermath of dan jones 'torture report' crunchy irony,

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

Derp State disapproval.

Freder Frederson said...

Freder Frederson is confused about the Geneva Convention.

No, I am not confused about the Geneva Conventions. I have repeatedly told you, and it has apparently never sank in, that terrorists and irregular combatants are protected by the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Conventions do not allow summary executions of anyone. I have provided citations to the pertinent sections of the Conventions numerous times, but you (and by "you" I mean many commenters here) persist in the belief that the Geneva Conventions have nothing to say about the treatment of irregular combatants and spies.

Danno said...

Laslo said..."They are truly the Fine Captains of Capsized Boats."

I saw a pic and caption in Powerline's "This Week in Pictures" mocking the current state of California's decline by saying "at least the Titanic went down with its lights on."

Parallel thoughts.

Michael K said...

In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?

Yes, but you know nothing and follow DNC talking points.

Michael K said...

we, through international treaties, have banned many horrible ways of killing the enemy.

Aside from poison gas, which was not used in WWII because we had our own poison gas supplies ready to retaliate, which "horrible ways" are you referring to ?

I don't think you know. Flamethrowers ? Nope.

Beasts of England said...

’...access to top secret information to make Zero Dark Thirty about the Obama raid.’

Worse than that, there are (at least) two instances in that film where highly classified data is revealed. I was astounded when I watched it the first time. But, anything to glorify the man child and his fragile psyche. National security be damned.

ga6 said...

"And the CEO is out for himself. He'll sell the company and see employees lose their jobs as long as he gets a big payout."

So true read Romney

Michael K said...


Blogger Howard said...

Trump is ruled by his little mushroom cap in the shadow cast by Barack " Long Don't Silver" Obama.

It's exactly why he is loved by cucks and chickenhawks


Howard is off his meds again. Tell us which branch you served in.

narciso said...

like ProPublica would try to do to gina haskel, about three years later,

Robert Cook said...

My bet is that much of what both Obama and Trump said about the respective deaths of Bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi are fabrications, crafted for the desired public relations effects.

Big Mike said...

My bet is that Robert Cook was dropped on his head when he was little.

narciso said...

what parts were classified, I thought the investigative process, which only partially involved extensive interrogation, was good,

Rick said...

Obama chose to be circumspect and conventionally presidential.

Obama knew the same people criticizing Trump now would make the OBL raid aftermath his victory lap entirely on their own.

Bruce Hayden said...

Obama spoke like a fellow Muslim, showing the rest of the Muslim world that we treated OBL with respect. That, no doubt, made him feel good about what he did. But it didn’t make America safer. Trump spoke like an American about what happens when you brutally murder Americans. Obama spoke like a world citizen. Trump spoke like an American leader about what you can expect if you brutally murder Americans.

Gengas Kahn and his grandson became existential threats to Islam. But that was only after their emissary was returned headless. Indeed, it is believed that one of the reasons initially for their military endeavors was to counter several centuries of Muslim deprivations on Mongol and allied tribes - very similar to the Crusades in that respect. Throughout ttheir campaigns, it very much looks like the Muslims inevitably started the atrocities. For well over a millennium, Muslims have conquered in the name of their Prophet by being significantly more brutal and depraved than the people’s they were trying to convert. Baghdadi, in that respect! was hardly any different, except in his utilization of modern techniques to publicize his people’s brutality. What he did, he did to shock the consciousnesses of the western world, and ensure fear of him on our part. Baghdadi Was more than willing to desecrate corpses, and should have expected that his was similarly desecrated. But, of course, we didn’t. Trump just called him an unclean dog, caught by a pack of our unclean (but in our view, heroic) dogs.

I think that only left wing idiots, intentionally ignorant of well over a thousand years of brutal Islamic terrorism and conquests, can believe that Obama’s approach was better. He showed himself weak by the way he pandered to the Muslim world when our military took down OBL. And it was reinforced by his inability to enforce his deadlines and red lines. Along with his destruction of stability in the area, through attempted regime change, I think that it is easy to persuasively argue that Obama’s feckless foreign policy, including his kowtowing to Muslim sentiments after we took out OBL, is a good part of how we ended up with Baghdadi and ISIL.

narciso said...

the second legal insurrection link, relies on times readers, not being very observant, of say geography, where the mission, originated among other things, now as with abbotabad, berisha did reveal how well tied certain intelligence services are to certain terrorist, isi in the first, mit (Turkish intelligence) in the second,

hombre said...

Freder: “In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?”

There were numerous instance of Trump’s kindness reported in 2016, but not by the leftmediaswine. How could an incurious TDSer like yourself know? The business of the LMS is to keep you ignorant. How could Trump or Althouse hillbillies overcome that?

Seeing Red said...

My bet is that much of what both Obama and Trump said about the respective deaths of Bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi are fabrications, crafted for the desired public relations effects.

Though no U.S. forces were killed in the Saturday evening raid that led to the death of an ISIS leader, one military working dog suffered severe injuries in the line of duty.

The dog, whose name and breed remain unknown, chased Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi into a tunnel and cornered him. With no place to go, the terrorist leader blew himself up along with three of his children, who he was using as human shields. The dog’s injuries highlighted the importance of military working dogs in special operations. Often, they will enter the danger zone with a camera on their backs before the humans do so.


I’m assuming the dog had a camera on it.

narciso said...


https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2019/10/how-baghdadis-death-reveals-trumps-clever-syria-joseph-klein/

Big Mike said...

As to the story about Pershing in the Philippines, there have to be at least twenty different versions of it, and all of them are apocryphal. The version I first heard was that the captured Moro fighters ("juramentado") were hanged (already a dishonorable death to a Muslim) while wrapped in pig skins. But note that it is not required to dip bullets into pig blood -- or bacon grease or pig urine or pig manure or wrap the condemned men in pig skins -- provided that the Moros believed that they would die in a way that would send them to the arms of Iblis instead of the arms of 72 houris (not virgins, BTW).

The story seems to have grown from Pershing noting in his autobiography that some soldiers had buried dead Moros in a grave with the body of a pig -- nowhere does he say that he ordered it or even sanctioned it, and at the time he was a first lieutenant (i.e., not exactly a top commander able to order much of anything).

Meanwhile can someone enlighten me as to why Freder thinks the US "desecrated" Abu al Baghdadi's body? No, not you, Freder. I regard you as incompletely sane, and always will.

Rick said...

Freder Frederson said...
It is shocking that advocating war crimes (desecrating bodies, stealing oil)


I see left wing nuts are dredging the bottom of the barrel to claim stealing oil is now a War Crime. The inescapable conclusion is that there aren't any real war crimes to complain about.

Birkel said...

Freder Frederson now demonstrates his lack of familiarity with the free exchange of goods and services.
Trump need not care about those with whom he enters business arrangements.
He just has to convince them they'll be better off for the exchange.

I guess it's not a newsflash that market economies do not require better angels.
But it is to a Leftist Collectivist.

Howard said...

Your favorite branch, mikey

MountainMan said...

I have done a pretty thorough Google search on the Geneva Conventions and can find so support for the idea that terrorists are protected by the Geneva Conventions. The Conventions protect the uniformed soldiers of signatory states and civilians. Every commentary and article I read says that terrorists are not subject to the Conventions.

John henry said...

Blogger etbass said...

Freder, have you forgotten about Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

And Tokyo.

Post bombing photos of Tokyo and Hiroshima are indistinguishable. Both show totally rubbleized cities. Far more rubbleized than even the hardest hit of the German cities.

John Henry

Michael K said...

Cook is also off his mads. Stalin would be so proud. Those supermarkets in western countries are created just to try to pretend that freedom is better for people than the Supreme Soviet. Nobody could have that much in stores. It is all illusion.

Otto said...

Tag - TDS

stevew said...

"And the CEO is out for himself. He'll sell the company and see employees lose their jobs as long as he gets a big payout."

The obligation is to the investors, not the employees. If you demand the reverse you are advocating for Socialism not Capitalism.

John henry said...

Blogger Freder Frederson said...

In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?

I understand that to some people "caring(tm)" is more important than doing.

What difference does it make if Trump, the businessman or the president cares(tm)? What matters is what he does. Trump, the businessman and the president, has made money for millions of people (hundreds of millions in the case of President Trump), provided jobs thousands (tens of millions as president), provided an outstanding entertainment product that tens of millions enjoyed for 14 years (Apprentice), ended AIDS in America (with Gilead's help), brought an end to the 60 year war with North Korea. Brought peace to the middle east (Last two are works in progress and may fall apart) returned manufacturing and manufacturing jobs to the US

And more...

Perhaps he cares(tm) perhaps he doesn't. I don't care whether he does or not. I am happy with what he is doing, regardless of what he feelz.

John Henry

Francisco D said...

In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?

Yes. My (lifelong Democrat) wife worked with Donald Trump in the late 1980's in NYC. She does not like the guy and would not vote for him in a million years, but she found him to be a very generous man. She recalls several instances when he spent his own money for various civic projects in NYC, such as fixing up the skating rinks, lending his helicopter, etc.

Disparage him all you want, but you need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid. You are so deranged that Hillary is not in the White House that you build up a case against Trump based on total bullshit. You guys have lost contact with reality.

Francisco D said...

My bet is that much of what both Obama and Trump said about the respective deaths of Bin Laden and Al-Baghdadi are fabrications, crafted for the desired public relations effects.

I think that makes sense. Insulting Al-Baghadi shows contempt that will make these assholes do stupid things. They are otherwise very clever. There is a PR game with the Arab world and we need to encourage those who do not support the jihadists.

It reminds me of the Gulf War when GHW Bush pronounced Saddam's name in such a way as to be a severe insult in the Arabic-speaking world.

Freder Frederson said...

I don't think you know. Flamethrowers ? Nope.

Actually, flamethrowers were banned shortly after WWII. The Hague Conventions which went into effect in 1997, bans the use and possession of all chemical weapons, including "riot control agents" like tear gas. The use of chemical weapons (but not the possession) was banned in 1925. The 1899 Haque Conventions banned the use of hollow point bullets. Under the 1997 Conventions use of White Phosphorus is allowed but only in illumination rounds, you can no longer use it to burn the enemy out of a position. The use of napalm is controversial.

There are all other kinds of rules of war that we have developed since the first Geneva Convention of 1864 (I don't think the U.S. joined until the late 1800's).

But you really don't care, you just want to call me stupid by lying and making shit up.

John henry said...

Robert Cook speaks, President Trump listens:


BREAKING: President Trump Says He May Release al-Baghdadi Raid Video
Jim Hoft by Jim Hoft October 28, 2019 160 Comments

141Share 66Tweet Email

On Monday morning President Trump stopped to speak with reporters on his way to speak with law enforcement officials in Chicago.

During the interview President Trump said he might release video footage of the raid that killed ISIS Leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.

Whimpering and Crying Baghdadi video!

John Henry

narayanan said...

Are there any games for players to practice chasing terrorists into DeadEndTunnels yet?

RISK - Caliphate version etc.

John henry said...

Blogger Big Mike said...

As to the story about Pershing in the Philippines, there have to be at least twenty different versions of it, and all of them are apocryphal.

There are also lots of stories about the British doing similar things in their various wars on the Indian subcontinent. Probably untrue for the most part.

John Henry

Freder Frederson said...

Post bombing photos of Tokyo and Hiroshima are indistinguishable. Both show totally rubbleized cities. Far more rubbleized than even the hardest hit of the German cities.

No I haven't forgotten, but the Geneva Conventions were explicitly amended after WWII to outlaw indiscriminate bombing of civilians. In fact, at the beginning of the War the Allies (course the U.S. was not an Ally at the time) threatened war crimes trials if Germany targeted civilians with bombing. They conveniently forgot their outrage when the British decided "dehousing workers" was a legitimate strategy. The Americans tried to maintain the illusion that their European strategic bombing (they were less concerned with keeping up appearances as to the Japanese) was not aimed at civilians but crippling industry.

narciso said...

it's a malinois, the un wanted to ratify article 3, which would grant such protections, to insurgent groups, but it violated the provisos that the Geneva conventions demand,

Yancey Ward said...

Trump is a kind of throwback to the age of Truman and Roosevelt in attitudes towards the enemy. How would Bush II or Obama have conducted World War II? Would Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, or Nagasaki have even taken place, or would World War II ended in a stalemate in 1975?

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Barack Obama: “Turns Out I’m Really Good At Killing People”

narayanan said...

as DBQ says : The Clan leader also stands on the front lines and takes the heat in battle. Like Trump said. "They are really coming for you, I am just in the way." He suffers along with his Clan and earns their respect and even love because is is equal to them and they are equal to him.
________________________
I now understand better why Trump showed up at WorldSeries

Yancey Ward said...

And let's just make this fucking clear- Osama Bin Laden deserved to be captured and boiled in pig fat until he died, and so did Al-Baghdadi. I would have poured the scooped up remains into the nearest sty.

n.n said...

The sun sets on planned terrorism in the Middle East. Baghdadi will no longer have the choice to decapitate lives he deems unworthy of life. And the rest of the parties, they can persist in their wicked solutions, or reconcile their differences and give peace a chance. It's ironic that Baghdadi self-aborted.

Birkel said...

MountainMan,
Spies are specifically protected. They must receive a fair trial. Field trials are sufficient, generally.

Non-state actors cannot be signatories to the Convention, by definition. They are not bound to an agreement they never entered. Simultaneously, we are not bound either. We are bound by our own laws. Again, that means field trials are likely sufficient. Torture is outlawed.

Mainly, the blather of people like Freder Frederson is to make sure Americans do not win wars.

Bob Boyd said...

A WAPO story featured right now:

Inside the operation that left Islamic State leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi dead
By Dan Lamothe and Ellen Nakashima


Makes it sound like something went wrong and Al-Baghdadi was a victim of negligence.

Rick said...

I am also reminded of Hillary's "we came, we saw, he died" quote.

Obama's campaign slogan was "Bin Laden is dead, General Motors is alive".

Biden at the DNC convention

But at least Obama didn't spike the ball he had Biden do it and the media carry it forward. That's totally different.

Yancey Ward said...

"Makes it sound like something went wrong and Al-Baghdadi was a victim of negligence."

He put his hands up.

etbass said...

rcocean said,

"There's also the liberal vs. Conservative viewpoint. Liberals get VERY worked up over torture of terrorists, and this sort feeling bleeds into not wanting kill them, or wanting to hit soft. Its an interesting view into their psyche,, that they cared more about a few terrorists at Gitmo than about 12,000 murders in the USA. They wanked on for YEARS about it, and judging by the NYT/WaPo, thought it the most important issue ever."

You might have mentioned their great moaning and groaning about capital punishment for serial murderers and their glee at the murder of millions of unborn children.

Ralph L said...

at the time he was a first lieutenant

And the commander of the AEF ~17 years later?

narciso said...

yes, john henry, that was the supposed pretext for the indian mutiny,

about Baghdadi, there are parts of the narrative, that have been debunked, that remain as in john Bradley's piece, he was an extremist even before he went to camp cropper,

n.n said...

It may imply a planned terrorist, a summary judgment, a sentence prosecuted in darkness, a corruption of the body, or it may imply that planned terrorism is intolerable, and there will be no quarter given to its advocates and activists.

Drago said...

It is clear now that across the lefty spectrum (and demostrated quite conclusively here at Althouse in the last 48 hours) the intent is to create sympathy for this islamic supremacist mass murdering "spark of divinity" terrorist and to label Trump a war criminal.

No event can occur without this being the narrative now that we are getting very very close to seeing much more of the inner workings of the lefty/dem Stasi-like weaponization of govt against domestic political opponents.

Michael K said...

the Geneva Conventions were explicitly amended after WWII to outlaw indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

Worked out well on 9/11 you idiot.

Freder sounds like a Pentagon lawyer that was ruling on artillery fire in Afghanistan.

War loser in chief.

Michael K said...

But you really don't care, you just want to call me stupid by lying and making shit up.

Not at all. You provide the raw material and I only comment on it,.

Drago said...

Rick: "But at least Obama didn't spike the ball he had Biden do it and the media carry it forward. That's totally different."

Careful Rick. We are likely 15 minutes away from our resident pro-MS13 marxists declaring any discussion of democrats hypocritical activities a literal war crime.

Freder Frederson said...

There's also the liberal vs. Conservative viewpoint. Liberals get VERY worked up over torture of terrorists, and this sort feeling bleeds into not wanting kill them, or wanting to hit soft. Its an interesting view into their psyche,, that they cared more about a few terrorists at Gitmo than about 12,000 murders in the USA.

I thought Conservatives were for the rule of law? The 12,000 murders in the USA are not carried out by the State, so why they are of concern they are not committed in our name. I take crimes committed by my government very seriously. I would think, as a conservative, you would too, otherwise the "rule of law" is meaningless.

Anonymous said...

FYI, John Henry, there were three acquittals at Nuremberg, and Donitz only got ten years.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Meanwhile can someone enlighten me as to why Freder thinks the US "desecrated" Abu al Baghdadi's body? No, not you, Freder. I regard you as incompletely sane, and always will”

Apparently chasing Baghdadi with a dog is Freder’s desecration, or at least War Crime. The reality is that Baghdadi desecrated his own corpse, along with those of his three children, whom he murdered, when he killed himself. So, in the end, it was again Baghdadi committing the war crimes, by desecrating corpses and murdering children. But after his beheadings, immolations, and other forms of murder, this was probably one of his more benign violations.

Freder Frederson said...

Every commentary and article I read says that terrorists are not subject to the Conventions.

Provide some links, because you are simply misreading it. Terrorists and spies are unauthorized combatants, and do not have to be treated the same as uniformed combatants or irregular forces (although the distinction between irregular forces and terrorists is a very fine line). But if they surrender they still have to be treated humanely and are entitled to due process. Summary execution is prohibited under the Conventions with no exceptions.

Also outside the Geneva Conventions, torture is prohibited (without exception) by the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, negotiated and signed by your hero, Ronald Reagan. It is also against U.S. law, no matter what John Yoo says.

effinayright said...

Re freder's halluciantions:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/03/26/terrorist-organizations-are-not-entitled-to-the-protection-of-the-geneva-conventions/#284488abd96e

Go halfway down.

"A critical point is that the Geneva Conventions apply to a signatory nation even if the opposing nation is not a signatory, but only if the opposing nation “accepts and applies the provisions” of the Conventions.Apart from arguments that Iran, Saudi Arabia or other nations (whether failed or not) are active state players and sponsors of terrorism (i.e., a “nation”), the Conventions apply only if the opposing nation “accepts and applies the provisions” of the Conventions.For example, we may debate and disagree on whether Islamic State (IS) is a “nation,” but it is evident that such terrorist entities—whether state or stateless—are not party to the convention. Iran, for instance, may deny the direct sponsorship or control of a terrorist organization, which thus renders the subject organization outside the protection of the Conventions. Therefore, we may legitimately ask if that organization or any of its combatant agents (e.g., armed soldiers who may or may not be identified by wearing any insignia indicating affiliation) are entitled to the protections of the Conventions.

Grave breaches of the Conventions by such groups include: willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, including biological experiments, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, compelling a protected person to serve in the armed forces of a hostile power, willfully depriving a protected person of the right to a fair trial if accused of a war crime."

Read on.

"Under these definitions, organizations such as IS, al Qaeda, al Nusra, Boko Haram, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc., are guilty of grave breaches of the Conventions as related to the human rights of those suffering from their actions: Beheading, stoning, burning alive, hanging, torture, dismemberment of fingers, hands, limbs, etc., all qualify. Furthermore, such summary judgment and punishment have clearly been meted out to innocent non-combatants in the absence of a fair trial. There is not even a pretense of due process. Indeed, terror and submission, not justice, are the primary motives."

n.n said...

As far as we know, as far as was reported, as far as was steered, Obama voted present for 32 trimesters, and was the very model of urbane humility by virtue of shared responsibility. We'll see if the carefully knit narrative withstands an investigation. My guess is that there are sufficient overlapping and converging interests, and the ball of yarns is wound so tightly, that it would a choice of self-abortion, on a global scale, if the mass collusion and deception were to be fully exposed and prosecuted. Mitigating the risk and its progress, is likely the motive of the multitrimester witch hunts and warlock trials.

Liberals get VERY worked up over torture of terrorists

They prefer out-of-sight and out-of-mind, for the judgment, sentence, torture and execution to happen behind legally and ethically impenetrable walls.

Wars for natural resources and democratic gerrymandering. Sentences of sodomy and abortion, albeit outside the walls. Abandoning Americans when they prove politically incongruent. Immigration reform and collateral damage at both ends of the bridge and throughout (e.g. trails of tears). Waterboarding men, women, and children in the Mediterranean. Neverending wars, which, albeit begrudgingly, have given way to a measure of reconciliation, although not a Kurdovo. Running guns, and influencing the vote, in what was the America-Cartel Affair, and what may have been the Libya-ISIS Affair in Middle East War 1.0.

Calypso Facto said...

"And the commander of the AEF ~17 years later?"

Pershing was championed by Teddy Roosevelt who promoted him straight from CPT to Brigadier General

Mr. O. Possum said...

Every sailor entering Tulagi harbor in WWII saw a billboard that "Bull" Halsey had put up.

It read:

"KILL MORE JAPS!"

There's nothing new about Trump's zeal.

Freder Frederson said...

Trump is a kind of throwback to the age of Truman and Roosevelt in attitudes towards the enemy.

How so? This is ridiculous. Trump sees the enemy as someone to be exploited: "hey, let's steal their oil and make them pay for their own rebuilding." Both Roosevelt and Truman advocated rebuilding the economies of Germany and Japan after the war.

Have you forgotten the Marshall Plan? Do you think Trump would have even proposed such a thing?

Leland said...

In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?

You mean besides the record low unemployment and criminal justice reform? Well, there is also his interest in actually fighting terrorist rather than just getting more involved with wars with foreign countries.

Next softball question.

Drago said...

Freder: "I take crimes committed by my government very seriously."

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...(ad infinitum)

Rick said...

Freder Frederson said...The 12,000 murders in the USA are not carried out by the State, so why they are of concern they are not committed in our name.

Wow, what an admission. 12,000 deaths aren't concerning if they don't provide the basis for a political attack. Keep in mind these are people who lecture others about compassion.

The Kinsley Gaffe in action.

John henry said...

Blogger Phil said...

FYI, John Henry, there were three acquittals at Nuremberg, and Donitz only got ten years.

One could argue that this was just part of the Charade. "See, we didn't automatically find everyone guilty."

John Henry

Freder Frederson said...

Re freder's halluciantions:

First off, learn how to use the href tag.

Neither one of the authors of that op ed are apparently experts on the Geneva Conventions or the laws of war. Secondly they don't even mention or acknowledge the existence of the Convention Against Torture in their justification of torture. Look it up and tell me where there is any exception to the prohibition against torture. I am not providing a link because I have provided a link many times in the past. Apparently to no avail, you all keep insisting that summary execution and torture are justified in some cases.

Lurker21 said...

So Trump is FDR to Obama's Hoover, or Reagan to Obama's Carter? Or Obama is Adams to Trump's Jackson? McKinley or Taft to Trump's Theodore Roosevelt? Obama is the stern, formal, restrained one, and Trump is the charismatic, impulsive showman and performer?

It could be. Obama looks smaller and weaker and less imposing than he did to his supporters in 2008. He was supposed to be the sane, responsible one after the unfocused, irresponsible, childish Bush (and before the unfocused, irresponsible, childish Trump).

But now Obama seems like a much less substantial figure than he once did. Trump looks like a real, red-blooded American original compared to the washed-out and pale Obama. And even Bush seems a little more substantial than he did ten years ago. But a lot depends on how it works out for Trump. Things may not always look as they do right now.

John henry said...

I've been reading Kurt Schlichter's Kelly Turnbull series (Chuck Norris lies awake nights wishing he could be as badass as Turnbull).

Currently on Wildfire. This is set in 2024 or so President Bill DiBlasio is president of the People's Replublic which split from the United States.

Turnbull is in Germany and the People's Republic tracking a terrorist who is going to release a bioweapon in the PR with the help of the CIA's successor agency. There is an Al-Baghdadi terror battalion involved. Only about halfway into the book and I am not sure how yet.

I recommend all three books though probably read book 2, Indian Country, first, then book 1 People's Republic. Wildfire is book 3.

John Henry

Big Mike said...

Pershing was championed by Teddy Roosevelt who promoted him straight from CPT to Brigadier General

Calypso Facto is correct. Go look at Pershing's dates of rank and you can see for yourself that in September 1906 he was jumped up from captain to brigadier general. He also skipped lieutenant general on his way to four star rank.

Teddy Roosevelt knew Pershing personally; Pershing was an officer in the 10th Cavalry (Buffalo soldiers), which was positioned next to Roosevelt's Rough Riders for the charge up San Juan and Kettle hills. When he became President he wanted to get Pershing promoted to colonel, but the Army refused because it was unthinkable to promote someone from captain to colonel, skipping the ranks of major and lieutenant colonel. But as Commander in Chief Roosevelt could legally promote Pershing to flag ranks, so he did.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Regarding the "Rules of War".

Those only work if everyone abides by the rules. They don't and you ALL know it.

So when one side....ours....plays by the rules and the other side doesn't all you are doing is setting yourself up for failure and literally throwing our young into the maw. The term cannon fodder comes to mind. Wasting lives and resources because you can't face the truth.

The truth is that war is terrible, ugly, destructive and people are actually going to die.

Is it terrible that civilians are caught up in the wars? Of course it is. Is it terrible that civilians who volunteer to fight the war or worse who are forced into service are killed? Yes it is.

The point of WAR is to WIN Win BIGLY. Quickly, efficiently. Utterly win so that the enemy is totally defeated. Winning so that the horror and mayhem are over sooner. Win so that it doesn't start up again.

Instead of winning. some people have decided to "play at war". Pretend that there are rules. Gentleman's agreements. Pretend that everyone wants the same thing. Pretend that both or all sides don't want to unnecessarily kill. Faking the War.

Fake wars kill more people in the long run than a swift resolution. Fake wars are why we have been in the Middle East for generations with NO END IN SIGHT.

Stop faking it. WIN. The other side wants to. The Jihadist make no bones about it. Ignoring their clear message is idiocy.

Win already.

tim in vermont said...

Freder, what do you think of the fact that Obama ordered the extrajudicial assassination of bin Laden and it was decided before the raid that he wasn’t going to be allowed the chance to surrender.

Obama didn’t take any prisoners because he had promised to empty Guantanamo. Plenty of potential prisoners were killed in the field though. This guy died by his own hand and had the option to surrender.

Skippy Tisdale said...

"If you really believe this you are a despicable human being."

Or a genius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPGMNOLaMw

Freder Frederson said...

Freder, what do you think of the fact that Obama ordered the extrajudicial assassination of bin Laden and it was decided before the raid that he wasn’t going to be allowed the chance to surrender.

I think that was wrong. How about you?


This guy died by his own hand and had the option to surrender.

And you know this how?

Wow, what an admission. 12,000 deaths aren't concerning

Apparently, your use of an orangutan as an avatar is appropriate, since you obviously cannot read what I wrote.

StephenFearby said...

The Syrian Kurds (who apparently helped identify where Baghdadi was holed up in Idlib province (which borders Turkey) were involved in locating (also now terminated) ISIS spokesman Abu Hassan al-Muhajir. Per the twitter post from a Kurd spokesman below. "'We believe ISIS spox. Al-Muhajir was in Jarablus to facilitate Baghdadi's entry to Euphrates Shield area,' referring to a zone in northern Syria controlled by Turkey's Syria proxies."

Why would Baghdadi feel more secure in territory controlled by Erdoğan? The most plausible explanation: the sordid history of Erdoğan in these matters:

'...On August 25, 2015 the Turkish newspaper Bugün ran a front-page story, illustrated with video stills, about what it said was the transfer, under the observation of Turkish border guards, of weapon and explosives from Turkey to ISIL through the Akcakale border post. Bugün reported that such transfers were occurring on a daily basis and had been going on for two months. In response, a couple of days later offices of Koza İpek Media Group, the owner of the newspaper, were raided by Turkish police.[100][101] In October 2015 control of Koza İpek Media Group was seized by the Ankara Chief Public Prosecutor's Office which then appointed new managers with links to the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), and in July 2016 Bugün was closed down on the orders of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.[102][103]'

'...In April 2018 an article was published by Foreign Policy in which it was stated that In 2013 alone, some 30,000 militants traversed Turkish soil, establishing the so-called jihadi highway, as the country became a conduit for fighters seeking to join the Islamic State. Furthermore, it was claimed that wounded Islamic State militants were treated for free at hospitals across southeastern Turkey. Among those receiving care was one of the top deputies of Islamic State chieftain Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, Ahmet el-H, who was treated in a private hospital in Sanliurfa in August 2014.[105]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant_(ISIL)



'...The Islamic State group's spokesman was killed Sunday in northern Syria, a top Kurdish official said, hours after the jihadists' leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was announced dead.

The official with the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces -- who asked not to be named because he is not authorized to speak on the issue -- said IS spokesman Abu Hassan al-Muhajir had been killed, after SDF chief Mazloum Abdi said he had been 'targeted' in a fresh raid.

'Al-Muhajir, the right-hand of Baghdadi and the spokesman for IS, was targeted in the village of Ain al-Baydah near Jarablus, in a coordinated operation between SDF intelligence and the US army,' Abdi said on Twitter.

An AFP correspondent in Ain al-Baydah, which is controlled by Turkey-backed Syrian rebels, said two vehicles where hit by airstrikes: a small pick-up truck and a larger truck carrying a small metal container.

He saw two corpses lying outside the first vehicle while a third charred body was in the metal container.

He could not identify who was behind the strikes or if they were carried out by warplanes or a drone.

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights confirmed the death of al-Muhajir, saying he was among five IS members who were killed in a US-led operation backed by the SDF.

In a later post on Twitter, SDF spokesman Mustefa Bali said: 'We believe ISIS spox. Al-Muhajir was in Jarablus to facilitate Baghdadi's entry to Euphrates Shield area,' referring to a zone in northern Syria controlled by Turkey's Syria proxies.

'The two US-led operations have effectively disabled top ISIS leadership who were hiding' in northwest Syria.

'More still remain hiding in the same area,' Bali said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7619773/How-gunships-cornered-ISIS-leader-Abu-Bakr-al-Baghdadi-Donald-Trump-watched-live-TV-link.html

hstad said...

Freder Frederson said..."...If you really believe this you are a despicable human being..."
10/28/19, 7:54 AM

I don't remember if I ever responded to you before! Which is OK with me. But this comment exhibits your propaganda influenced comments and such ignorance it's astounding you actually have a sane life. Wars should always be a last resort. Having been in War, the only way to conduct a War is brutal, devastating, horrible and swift actions. In this way, you shorten the length of the conflict and sap the opposing party and its backers [population] of the will to fight. Thus saving a lot more lives. If you don't have the strength or will to do this - don't ever go to War. Since WW2, we've had nothing but stupid and politically conducted wars which seem to last forever. Politicians lie to the populace and thus get us into a conflict. Like that moron President Johnson dictating specific operations - reminded me of another great general - Hitler.

Freder Frederson said...

Meanwhile can someone enlighten me as to why Freder thinks the US "desecrated" Abu al Baghdadi's body? No, not you, Freder. I regard you as incompletely sane, and always will.

At least I am sane enough not to make up quotes. Where did I say that the U.S. "desecrated" Abu al Baghdadi's body. I have not said one word about whether I think this raid was justified or about how it was carried out.

So don't put words in my mouth.

Sam L. said...

It's just the WaPoo WaPooping again.

Freder Frederson said...

The point of WAR is to WIN Win BIGLY. Quickly, efficiently. Utterly win so that the enemy is totally defeated. Winning so that the horror and mayhem are over sooner. Win so that it doesn't start up again.

So you approve of the way the Soviets and Germans conducted the war in Europe, while us and the British were a bunch of pansies.

If anything, World War II demonstrates that playing by the rules, or at least trying to maintain the rules, saves lives and achieves victory with less destruction. The devastation and death dealt out on the Eastern Front far exceeded what happened in the west. At the end of the war, the Germans were surrendering to the Western Allies in droves while they continued to fight the Russians to the death (because they knew that they had no choice to fight or die or be enslaved).

Rick said...

Freder Frederson said...
I think that was wrong. How about you?


Why don't you link to your denunciation of Obama as a war criminal?

you obviously cannot read what I wrote.

The 12,000 murders in the USA are not carried out by the State, so why they are of concern they are not committed in our name.

Here's the exact quote. Don't argue with me, argue with the person who wrote it.

tim in vermont said...

"And you know this how?”

Those were the orders, unlike with bin Laden.

And for the record, no, I do not like it that bin Laden was not given the chance to surrender. That’s why I called it an extrajudicial execution.

BTW Freder, is it still your position that the Ukraine did not interfere in the 2016 election on Hillary’s behalf?

Lloyd W. Robertson said...

Obama, "a president who was routinely assailed by Republicans as weak and feckless on foreign affairs," had to show the rubes he was tough after all. Poor man. Except for that perception problem, he would probably have kept his ever-slipping dignity. But wait: wasn't it Hillary who raised the issue of the 3 a.m. phone call in campaign ads? I think it was. As other commenters have pointed out, Obama had his acolytes do his victory dance, Trump does his own.

Dust Bunny Queen said...

Freeder: So you approve of the way the Soviets and Germans conducted the war in Europe, while us and the British were a bunch of pansies.

I don't approve of war. I don't approve of death either but we are all going to get to experience that. It would be nicer to not experience a violent death.

The British too were fighting for their lives and the continuation of their country. They didn't have stupid pansy rules of engagement like the ones that Obama saddled us with and like those that the liberals want to use to cripple our troops' ability to conduct their operations as they see fit.

If anything, World War II demonstrates that playing by the rules, or at least trying to maintain the rules, saves lives and achieves victory with less destruction. The devastation and death dealt out on the Eastern Front far exceeded what happened in the west. At the end of the war, the Germans were surrendering to the Western Allies in droves while they continued to fight the Russians to the death (because they knew that they had no choice to fight or die or be enslaved).

Thank you for illustrating how in a WAR not all sides play by the rules. Fight or be enslaved. I think slavery is against the rules. Don't you?

War isn't a board game of Risk. Not everyone plays by the same rules.....or any rules.

Dropping an atomic bomb on Japan wasn't part of the agreed upon "rules"....however, it saved the lives of MILLIONS of people in Japan, the United States and elsewhere by ending the war sooner rather than later.

Jim at said...

You know - only speaking for myself here - but maybe I wouldn't think leftists loved terrorists if they didn't spend so much time defending them.

Like Freder.

Jim at said...

“In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?”

How much Presidential salary is Trump keeping for himself, boy?

tim in vermont said...

"In Trump's entire career in business, is there any evidence that he cares for anyone but himself and maybe his immediate family?”

When he bought that club in Palm Beach, no blacks or Jews were allowed, and he fought hard and got that changed.

Vance said...

Interesting how leftists are crying tears over Al-Bagdadi. "Oh, it was a war crime to kill him! Evil, Evil United States and Trump!" See Freder.

But if Trump was captured and drawn and quartered on the front lawn of the White House, and then his corpse set on fire--Freder would cheer himself hoarse, and war crimes be damned. We all know it.

And Freder most likely still hates Jan Sobeski... one of the great heroes of the last 2000 years. He led a bunch of Christian warriors in a great slaughter of Muslims in the fields outside of Vienna. Too bad for Freder.... all the Muslim atrocities that would have occurred if they had captured Vienna makes a leftist weep tears that they were prevented.

Ken B said...

Baghdadi was a combatant in the field. There is absolutely no issue here.

alanc709 said...

"Freder Frederson said...
I don't think you know. Flamethrowers ? Nope.

Actually, flamethrowers were banned shortly after WWII."

Flamethrowers were used extensively in Vietnam.

Birkel said...

The point of Freder Frederson is to make sure America loses wars.
Same thing since the Korean War.

Freder Frederson said...

"Oh, it was a war crime to kill him! Evil, Evil United States and Trump!" See Freder.

Never said that. You are lying.

But if Trump was captured and drawn and quartered on the front lawn of the White House, and then his corpse set on fire--Freder would cheer himself hoarse, and war crimes be damned. We all know it.

Another lie. I have repeatedly and unequivocally condemned torture. If you can find one post where I wished someone dead, please provide it. I am not only adamantly opposed to the death penalty, I think life without possibility of parole should not be permitted.

Those were the orders, unlike with bin Laden.

Can you provide a link to back up this claim? I have been following this carefully and have not seen where anyone claimed that the orders were to capture him if possible (haven't seen that they were ordered not to capture him either). I don't know either way.

BTW Freder, is it still your position that the Ukraine did not interfere in the 2016 election on Hillary’s behalf?

That is the conclusion of all U.S. intelligence agencies. I will believe them over Rudy Guiliani any day. The NYT article you claim demonstrates such interference does no such thing.

Here's the exact quote. Don't argue with me, argue with the person who wrote it.

Did you read this part of the quote, monkey boy?

"The 12,000 murders in the USA are not carried out by the State, so why they are of concern they are not committed in our name." emphasis added.

Granted "why" should have been "while", but reading it as written the sentence makes no sense, the typo should be obvious.

Freder Frederson said...



Yes, battles of the seventeenth century were brutal. What is your point? The most destructive war of that period was the Thirty Years' War, where as much as 40% of the population of Central Europe died. And that was a war between Catholics and Protestants.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Baghdadi was a combatant in the field. There is absolutely no issue here.”

Except in reality, his vision was probably much too weak to hit much with that AK-47 that he was usually photographed with. He was more the inspirational and strategic leader than a tactical leader or line soldier. But inspiring and then ordering his soldiers into battle, instead of actually pulling the trigger, is, if anything, more deserving of death at our hands, and not less.

n.n said...

So you approve of the way the Soviets and Germans conducted the war in Europe, while us and the British were a bunch of pansies.

#HateLovesAbortion? And torture, too. War, however, is different, for the Soviets, the Socialists, the British, and Americans, too. There are rarely walls to hide the victims and atrocities, and weapons are wielded as a doubled-edged scalpel.

Freder Frederson said...

Well I stand corrected. Flamethrowers are indeed still legal for warfare.

Calypso Facto said...

Re: flamethrowers, "The controversy and dangers posed by flamethrowers have led to calls for the weapon to be banned in international treaties. However, to date, there are no treaties that explicitly ban the use of the weapon in combat." As alanc709 correctly pointed out, US forces (Marines) used flamethrowers in both the Korean and Vietnam Wars. The US voluntarily and unilaterally discontinued use in 1978, but the option to restore use at any time remains.

Beach Brutus said...

Being Presidential is avoiding spectacle the way FDR did after the Doolittle Raid when he attributed the source of B-25s to Shangri La.

DavidD said...

Oh, God, Freder. What do you think war is?

War is hell, Freder. A great leader said that.

And something Patton should’ve said, even if he didn’t: Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country. Wars are won by making the other poor bastard die for his country—or ideology or whatever,

RobinGoodfellow said...


Blogger Freder Frederson said...
It is shocking that advocating war crimes (desecrating bodies, stealing oil), is excused as just Trump being Trump. Our nation should be better than that.

War is the art of killing the enemy in horrible ways until he quits killing you in horrible ways. Deterrence of war is showing the enemy that you have the weapons and the elite trained forces that use them commanded by a Commander that has the will to have them kill in horrible ways.

If you really believe this you are a despicable human being.


You win a war by killing people and breaking things until you have destroyed the enemies (a) will or (b) ability to keep fighting.

RobinGoodfellow said...

Blogger John henry said...

Blogger Freder Frederson said...

It is shocking that advocating war crimes (desecrating bodies, stealing oil), is excused as just Trump being Trump. Our nation should be better than that.


Yeah, we're stealing their oil by buying it at the price they set?

It’s hard to argue with that logic.

Rusty said...


"If anything, World War II demonstrates that playing by the rules, or at least trying to maintain the rules, saves lives and achieves victory with less destruction. The devastation and death dealt out on the Eastern Front far exceeded what happened in the west. At the end of the war, the Germans were surrendering to the Western Allies in droves while they continued to fight the Russians to the death (because they knew that they had no choice to fight or die or be enslaved)."
The death and devastation dealt out on the eastern front was a direct result of Stalin preferring to spend bodied rather that tactics. Stalin offered up the lambs and the Germans dutifully slaughtered them.
Let me give you some insight about war. There are no rules. There is only one goal. Survival.

John henry said...

Jufst by way of no harm, Military grade flamethrowers are legal for civilian ownership under federal. No license or registration required.

Some states have laws regulating their use. Not banning them, just how they can be used.

They may be banned in a few states but I don't know that for a fact.

John Henry

PJH said...


Remember Hillary's "more measured tone" here: We came, We Saw, He Died". Giggle, Giggle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlz3-OzcExI
Ref. Quaddafi

Birkel said...

Freder Frederson admits he was wrong on one thing.
Steadfastly asserts perfection on all the other things.

Often wrong.
Never in doubt.

Don't ever change Bundy Case liar.

Milwaukie guy said...

I'm very Jacksonian in outlook.

Our only really transformative wars in the last 150 years were our Civil War and the War in Europe and the War in the Pacific. We totally destroyed our enemy and in WW2 killed millions of civilians.

I was a Neocon from 2001 until 2005. While I didn't think we could bring Afghanistan into the modern world, those boy-fucker woman-bagging tribal kooks, I did have high hopes for Iraq. I thought they were more secular and thought taking out the fascist dictator was the right thing to do.

But, after the fastest mechanized advance in history, we declared victory in Baghdad. Since Turkey sabotaged the 4th Division's pincer from the north, we still hadn't taken Saddam's home base. That's where the resistance had a month to regroup. We should have kept blowing up shit and killing soldiers until that red-haired General Izzi[?] surrendered, who the Baathists rallied around.

Geneva forbids targeting civilians or subjecting them to indiscriminate attacks. It doesn't prevent an army from blowing them away in the course of military operations. The best offense against human shields is to ignore them. most of the time.

The U.S. didn't thoroughly defeat and humiliate Iraq. We were too queasy. We would have had better luck trying to transform them, but then Bremer on out....


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