August 27, 2019

"Your great saints were child rapists. Your sacred texts are false alibis for a world-historic crime. That isn’t a hill your shining city sits upon..."

"... but the unmarked graves of men it condemned to unlived lives. The prosperity you saw as confirmation of God’s favor is actually proof of your complicity in theft; tucked beneath the bounty your fathers bequeathed you are a pile of unpaid debts. And the collective identity that gave you belonging – that freed you from the solitary confinement of your self, and commuted the death sentence that is your flesh – is a hateful lie that all non-racists are duty-bound to lay to rest. This is, ostensibly, what the typical white conservative hears when reading (or imagining what it would be like to read) the New York Times’ '1619 Project.'... But if the right’s catastrophizing response to the 1619 Project is incomprehensible in intellectual terms, it’s more understandable in psychological ones. The Times’s narrative does not delegitimize the U.S. nation-state, or American patriotism. But it very much does challenge the legitimacy of white American identity – and the secular saints and potted histories that lend that identity its substance. And for many white conservatives in the U.S., the idea of surrendering that identity is quite painful...."

From "The ‘1619 Project’ Isn’t Anti-American — It’s Anti-White Identity Politics" by Eric Levitz (New York Magazine).

242 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Amadeus: I was observing that from 7:49 am to 2:57 pm a lot of people on this thread had a lot to say about the group characteristics of white people and others, thereby ignoring one of the fundamental beliefs that I think a lot of commenters on this blog, including you, share, namely, that identity politics is idiotic and dangerous.

The good guys might win the identity politics wars, but it will a lot of wasted effort. It is better to expose the shortcomings of low information identity classifications today, tomorrow, and forever.

If you believe in individualism, stand up for individuals.


This comment is a perfect example of the muddle-headedness surrounding this topic. You've got a least three false assumptions swirling around in this comment:

1) That a belief that group differences are real = approval (or advocacy) of identity politics. (Or, is the cause identity politics).

2) That pretending that they don't exist will prevent group friction or defuse other those other guys' advocacy of identity politics.

But group differences are real, they are interesting to normal human beings everywhere, people notice them and act on them regardless of any social sanctions against acknowledging them, and they matter, politically and socially. Being "colorblind" and champions of individualism for the last fifty years did not prevent the left from setting up a destructive, government-backed regime based on the dogma that there are no meaningful group differences, and that any difference in outcome is based on white people's racism.

and (most annoying) 3) That noticing group differences = judging people as members of their group and as not as individuals.

This is just flat out false, and I don't know why you (and alas, mock and a lot of other people) seem to cling to this falsehood so tenaciously, to the point that what people are actually saying here seems to bounce off your heads. It does *not* follow from believing that group differences are real, that one thinks that there aren't, say, blacks of superior intellect and ability, or East Asians with poor math-aptitude. It does not translate to "low information classification".

In fact, I think you know that perfectly well. I'm just wondering why you keep talking as if you didn't.

And finally, you don't defuse and defeat the other guys' identity politics by ignoring what he's saying. You can't talk about the demonization of whites by refusing to mention the w-word.

n.n said...

You still have the American tribe

A tribe organized on principles, which limit redistributive change, reject involuntary exploitation, does not indulge diversity, avoids conflating logical domains, and is not beholden to mortal gods.

Fen said...

Amadeus 48: The people who are willing to dismiss large swathes of our population because of their appearance are making a huge mistake.

Angel-Dyne: Nobody here is doing that. Nobody here is talking about doing that. Nobody here is advocating "dismiss[ing] large swathes of our population because of their appearance". And I will bet good money that nobody here would decline the services of an excellent surgeon because of his race. So why do you keep babbling on about it?

It's like watching Amadeus48 lecture the victim that bullying is wrong and he should stop.

Hey Amadeus, the people you want to speak with are over there, the ones demonizing and stereotyping Whitey.

Fen said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fen said...

I'm simply pointing out the obvious:

1) if you force whites to self-identify racially and organize tribally against you, they will kill most of you (see: Native Americans). They are very efficient at war (see: European History)

2) game theory for post-apocalyptic scenarios predicts we will all re-align tribally along racial lines, because you can't determine someone's voter registration at 500 meters.

mockturtle said...

Having taken both Physical and Cultural Anthropology in college, as have most of you, I am aware that early man depended on tribal affiliation for security and safety. But surely we have evolved away from that necessity by now.

chickelit said...

mockturtle asked...If it's in our DNA, then why does my family lack this trait?

Aberrant mutation?

More seriously, I'd lump you squarely with the American Tribe -- not that you're a square.

chickelit said...

I used to pretend I wasn't American. I left the country after grad school for 3 years. I travelled in England with 3 Germans and passed as a German. But those aspects aren't inside me -- they were my surroundings. They weren't really me.
I married a non-American. Mileage may vary with my kids.

Anonymous said...

mock: If it's in our DNA, then why does my family lack this trait?

If that were true, they would be extreme outliers. But I doubt it's true.

Judging by the evidence that you've presented here for this claim, you seem to think that people asserting the reality of tribal tendencies in human beings never have friends among, never marry, never are sexually attracted to people outside their own race. You're operating with a conception of tribalism that other people here aren't using. My family members sure aren't "whites only" in the above areas, and I haven't noticed any anomalous lack of any tribal tendencies in them.

The lines along which tribes form depend on circumstances. No one here, including buwaya, is claiming that tribes are always strict racial or ethnic constructs. Those just happen to be the most common anchors of identity. Competitive stress and aggression from other tribally organized (along whatever lines) groups provokes tribalizing reaction in target groups. (That's why decrying "white identity" while promoting a virulently anti-white ideology is so completely batshit.)

And I quote buwaya as saying: You need a tribe, no matter what.

You do need a tribe, and you have (at least) one.

pacwest said...

200 comments about some child's rant. And make no mistake, he is a child. His education saw to that.

chickelit said...

You do need a tribe, and you have (at least) one.

Namely, the Althouse tribe.

chickelit said...

200 comments about some child's rant. And make no mistake, he is a child. His education saw to that.

I don't know about you but I'm commenting with tribal members.

chickelit said...

mockturtle said...Having taken both Physical and Cultural Anthropology in college, as have most of you, I am aware that early man depended on tribal affiliation for security and safety.

I ran as far as I could from such courses -- especially at a place like the UW. I blew all my electives on foreign languages. Then I lived abroad.

chickelit said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chickelit said...

The left at UW-Madison shouted down a Eldrige Clever (sp) way back in 80's. I mean shut him down. Curtailed his free speech. Nothing's changed.

mockturtle said...

Yes, chickelit, I AM an American and in that sense part of the American 'tribe' if there is one. But it does not shape itself along racial or ethnic lines which, IIRC, several here insist that it should.

mockturtle said...

Namely, the Althouse tribe.

True, that! ;-)

mockturtle said...

Chickelit reports: I ran as far as I could from such courses -- especially at a place like the UW. I blew all my electives on foreign languages. Then I lived abroad.

University of Wisconsin? I went to UW, too, but University of Washington.

Anonymous said...

mock: But it does not shape itself along racial or ethnic lines which, IIRC, several here insist that it should.

Nobody insists that it "should". Nobody's talking about "should". They're saying that it commonly does, which is true.

chickelit said...

University of Wisconsin? I went to UW, too, but University of Washington.

UW-Madison. There already were leftist politics in humanities electives. I audited a few but never for credit. The hard science faculty avoided politics, well except for Bob West (chemist) and his group.

mockturtle said...

Weren't you required some humanities? I took science, too, but had to include some humanities subjects, most of which I loathed.

mockturtle said...

Nobody insists that it "should". Nobody's talking about "should". They're saying that it commonly does, which is true.

I may not have made my point clear. Some have maintained that this racial identity preference is an inborn trait rather than an acquired one and I disagree.

chickelit said...

I think foreign languages counted as humanities. I had a souped-up chemistry BS degree with less room than the usual; it required French, German, or Russian. I took German and Italian (sequentially).

chickelit said...

***elective room***

chickelit said...

I should have minored in German. Only later did I appreciate what great department they had.

Lazarus said...

Was there really a "catastrophizing" response to this from the right? I haven't heard any. Probably a negative response, but Levitz is generalizing and exaggerating. He's battling with the voices in his own head:

This is, ostensibly, what the typical white conservative hears when reading (or imagining what it would be like to read) the New York Times’ “1619 Project.”

"Ostensibly." Levitz finds a few talking heads with columns to turn out and generalizes that into a panicked reaction that isn't really there. Nobody is frothing at the mouth because of Times articles that they don't read. And this gives Levitz license to promote his own message. It's all a made-up controversy similar to the "leftist academic says something offensive" articles in Breitbart.

I understand that we can be "Americans" - heirs to both slaves and slaveowners, and I don't get offended by criticism of slaveowners. Far from it. But that doesn't mean that the Times isn't trying to "divide and demoralize" the country. You don't have to be a White supremacist to wonder about that.

Lewis Wetzel said...

The "1619 project" is not about history. If it was about history, it could be disputed. It be argued, for and against. You could compare and contrast the cultures of slavery-free Canada and the (once) slavery-friendly American South, for example.
Levitz makes no argument that the "1619 project" is about history. Where its historicity can be checked, it is largely wrong, in important ways that undermine its thesis (the economic importance of slave labor, for example).

Paco Wové said...

If Levitz' title ended two words earlier, it would be much more accurate.

Paco Wové said...

"This is, ostensibly, what the typical white conservative hears"

Uh-huh. Levitz recounts this with far too much relish and in far too much detail for me to believe it's merely his imagining of the voices in evil whitey's head. I think it's far more likely that it is what Levitz really believes, and wants to rub in evil whitey's face, but this "imagining" device allows him to do it with plausible deniability.

Fen said...

Angle-Dyne: The lines along which tribes form depend on circumstances. No one here, including buwaya, is claiming that tribes are always strict racial or ethnic constructs. Those just happen to be the most common anchors of identity. Competitive stress and aggression from other tribally organized (along whatever lines) groups provokes tribalizing reaction in target groups.

"The Pink Tribe is all about feeling good: feeling good about yourself! Sexually, emotionally, artistically – nothing is off limits, nothing is forbidden, convention is fossilized insanity and everybody gets to do their own thing without regard to consequences, reality, or natural law. We all have our own reality – one small personal reality is called “science,” say – and we Make Our Own Luck and we Visualize Good Things and There Are No Coincidences and Everything Happens for a Reason and You Can Be Whatever You Want to Be and we all have Special Psychic Powers and if something Bad should happen it’s because Someone Bad Made It Happen. A Spell, perhaps.

The Pink Tribe motto, in fact, is the ultimate Zen Koan, the sound of one hand clapping: EVERYBODY IS SPECIAL.

Then, in the other corner, there is the Grey Tribe – the grey of reinforced concrete. This is a Tribe where emotion is repressed because Emotion Clouds Judgment. This is the world of Quadratic Equations and Stress Risers and Loads Torsional, Compressive and Tensile, a place where Reality Can Ruin Your Best Day, the place where Murphy mercilessly picks off the Weak and the Incompetent, where the Speed Limit is 186,282.36 miles per second, where every bridge has a Failure Load and levees come in 50 year, 100 year and 1000 Year Flood Flavors.

The Grey Tribe motto is, near as I can tell, THINGS BREAK SOMETIMES AND PLEASE DON’T LET IT BE MY BRIDGE."

Ralph L said...

game theory for post-apocalyptic scenarios predicts we will all re-align tribally along racial lines, because you can't determine someone's voter registration at 500 meters.

Won't this country divide between big urban vs. outer suburban & rural before racial, or is that mostly the same thing? Something like 20% of the population is foreign-born, and probably most are in cities.

I've never figured out how they kept Harlem from terrorizing the Upper East side pre-Guiliani, though in the 60's riots, blacks burned their own neighborhoods.

Jupiter said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Amadeus 48 said...

OK, let’s try this: Angel-Dyne is a typical white person. He is opinionated, he likes to insult people who disagree with him, and his categorizes people by the apparent color of their skin. Angel-Dyne struggles to get beyond mere tribalism, accepting that group identities are more important than ideas.

Does that sound like you?

mockturtle said...

I think Angle-Dyne is a she, amirite?

Amadeus 48 said...

If Angel-Dyne is a she, it’s just another tribe to her.

mockturtle said...

And Angle-Dyne, like buwaya, is brilliant but sometimes, IMHO, wrong.

buwaya said...

I'm in that grey tribe, but with spells. And demons.

Amadeus 48 said...

Should be “Angle-Dyne”. Sorry.

Paco Wové said...

"Does that sound like you?"

That's a "typical white person" to you? Jeebus, what a bigot.

Anonymous said...

Amadeus and mock: There are some topics that seem to have the power to make normally intelligent people stupid. As in, "For some reason I'm so freaked out by this topic that I can't even comprehend and engage with what people are actually writing here, but I need some outlet for my freak-out, so I'm going to respond to what the bogey-men in my head are saying about this topic instead, and pretend I'm responding to some comment here."

This seems to be one of those topics for you guys.

It's OK, guys. We all have our freak-out triggers, so I don't take your idiotic slanders personally.

Kinda hurt at being taken for a man, though. (Could be worse, though - I was taken for a Canadian once.)

Amadeus 48 said...

I try not to think in racial group terms. There are too many variations among individuals to make group characterizations very helpful.

One of the standards for judging legally admissible evidence under the evidence rules is whether the type of evidence would be more prejudicial than probative. I think that thinking in racial categories doesn’t prove much as to any individual and has been a lousy standard for effecting affirmative social policy. Affirmative action, for instance, uses race as a basis for making hiring decisions and university admissions. The results have been problematic, and yet it persists.
J
The poison of group racial categories is now again being embraced by one of our two major political parties (although it has been always been part of Democratic Party doctrine since its formation) to use the concept of “white supremacy” to win elections for the next several years by slandering the opposition. My counter is that people shouldn’t use racial categories but insist policy and practice be pushed beyond and outside racial groups, which are, after all very low information categorizations because of variances among individuals.

The article itself is pernicious nonsense. White supremacy as a motivating factor of any substantial sector of the American public is nonsense, except as Michael K points out, there are lots of Democrats that want to profit by it. I think we need to turn the discussion to topics that have the advantage of being true and leave the Democrats to their raging.

What people want is the opportunity to do better for themselves and their families. Trump is pushing that. The Dems are pushing dependency on the government.

mockturtle said...

No one has responded to my question regarding the origins of racial identity preferences. Some are saying it is innate while I maintain it is acquired. So, which is it? To me, this the big issue.

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