"The teen wrote an autobiography called 'Winning or Learning,' which details her battles with post-traumatic stress disorder, depression and anorexia after being molested and raped as a young child.... Pothoven asked her friends and followers on Instagram to 'not convince me that this is not good, this is my decision and it is final.' Children as young as 12 can opt for euthanasia in the Netherlands, but only after a doctor determines that the patient’s pain is unbearable" NY Post.
Unbearable.
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152 comments:
murder.
We know the human brain, especially the parts that deal with understanding consequences, do not fully develop until a person is in the their 20's, but children as young as 12 can decide the burden of carrying on is just not worth it?
I love when liberals try to claim the US is wrong about something by citing Europe as a place where they do it different.
"Slippery slope" may be strictly speaking a logical fallacy but in the case of euthanasia, when all the financial cultural incentives greasing the slope and putting marbles on it... remember how when this was new in the Netherlands it was only going to the terminally ill and adults? Yeah that didn't last long.
There is no constituency for keeping people alive against their will. There is a very strong constituency for making it as easy as possible for people to die early and save governments and corporations the cost of their care and support.
According to the Remmelink Report, in 1990:
2,300 people died as the result of doctors killing them upon request (active, voluntary euthanasia).(7)
400 people died as a result of doctors providing them with the means to kill themselves (physician-assisted suicide).(8)
1,040 people (an average of 3 per day) died from involuntary euthanasia, meaning that doctors actively killed these patients without the patients’ knowledge or consent.(9)
14% of these patients were fully competent. (10)
72% had never given any indication that they would want their lives terminated. (11)
In 8% of the cases, doctors performed involuntary euthanasia despite the fact that they believed alternative options were still possible. (12)
In addition, 8,100 patients died as a result of doctors deliberately giving them overdoses of pain medication, not for the primary purpose of controlling pain, but to hasten the patient’s death. (13) In 61% of these cases (4,941 patients), the intentional overdose was given without the patient’s consent.(14)
According to the Remmelink Report, Dutch physicians deliberately and intentionally ended the lives of 11,840 people by lethal overdoses or injections–a figure which accounts for 9.1% of the annual overall death rate of 130,000 per year. The majority of all euthanasia deaths in Holland are involuntary deaths.
The Remmelink Report figures cited here do not include thousands of other cases, also reported in the study, in which life-sustaining treatment was withheld or withdrawn without the patient’s consent and with the intention of causing the patient’s death. (15) Nor do the figures include cases of involuntary euthanasia performed on disabled newborns, children with life-threatening conditions, or psychiatric patients. (16)
The most frequently cited reasons given for ending the lives of patients without their knowledge or consent were: “low quality of life,” “no prospect for improvement,” and “the family couldn’t take it anymore.”(17)
In 45% of cases involving hospitalized patients who were involuntarily euthanized, the patients’ families had no knowledge that their loved ones’ lives were deliberately terminated by doctors. (18)
According to the 1990 census, the population of Holland is approximately 15 million. That is only half the population of California. To get some idea of how the Remmelink Report statistics would apply to the U.S., those figures would have to be multiplied 16.6 times (based on the 1990 U.S. census population of approximately 250 million).
We have decided that those under the age of 21 are not mature enough to decide if they should drink or smoke cigarettes or weed. We have decided that those under the age of 18 are not mature enough to vote, or decide to use a tanning booth.
But apparently they are mature enough to have an abortion or have a doctor kill them.
Like driving, life is a privilege, not a right.
She should simply have let her Government License to Exist expire.
I am Laslo.
The West is dying, and when I say that I mean the Western traditional institutions default towards affirmation of life.
From abortion, to legalized euthanasia, to increasing singlehood and resistance to family life, this is a huge and gigantic problem.
There are so many other people bearing far far greater sufferings - also senseless and undeserved - making a choice to deal with their pain, mend their wounds, and end up living their lives and finding happiness...
...But in the Netherlands they'll let someone 12 years old end their life before it's even relevantly began. Think about that.
The West is being infiltrated by death-cultists and a philosophy of death.
Terrible. Imagine having your despair validated by professionals you should be able to trust and turn to for help. I can't imagine telling a teenager or young adult, or anyone for that matter, that their unhappiness will last forever
It’s almost as if ancient traditions like the catholic church’s are grounded in something fundamental and once you start killing inconvenient people, you kill anybody when you feel like it.
Nat Hentoff often warned against permitting medically-assisted (or induced) death--euthanasia--among various reasons because he foresaw this, the slippery slope, the normalization of doctors killing people for less and less urgent reasons, until it is used for convenience, and for the disposal of surplus people.
Click-bait story.
The west's problem is the number of people clicking them.
Cake or Death.
I'm sure the machines of institution thought, well one less person destroying the earth or putting carbon into the atmosphere so then Death it is. Bonus, we won't have to provide cake.
1. Young girl 2. victim 3. suffering 4. needy
Ideal story.
It's a shame this girl couldn't have been provided with a drum set or something to occupy her interest. The Anne Frank bat-mitzvah gift.
She probably had just been watching TV.
It has been known since the 1980s that euthanasia is common in the Netherlands. It was technically illegal for a while (I don't know the exact legal status now) but any ER doctor that admitted a patient to ICU with respiratory failure from COPD was immediately fired. Such patients got a lethal dose of morphine IV.
I hate seeing this happen. Euthanasia can be a positive when you near the end of your life. If I was suffering from dementia, Alzheimer's or Lou Gehrig's disease, I would much rather take a dose of phenobarbital in champagne and go to sleep than suffer like that.
But it can't stop there, can it?
I suppose if it's each person's choice to decide when to shuffle off, we should issue everyone a bottle of phenobarbital and let them decide, right? Let it be by their own hand, not a doctor.
All you have to do is look at a photo of that girl to see that she's seriously disturbed--suffering from extreme depression. The doctor who signed off on that murder ought to be euthanized himself. It's fascinating that the penalty in the Netherlands for rape of a child is being put to death--the child put to death, that is. Where were her parents during all of this?
The Left enourages the suicide, and genocide, of the entire West.
Surprised at how little information is out there on this story.
A quick search finds all outlets repeating the same basic information. I have seen no reference to her parents. Something is missing here.
The government is definitely the best tool to stop this. Make it illegal now.
We need police in the homes and doctors offices now.
Investigations of every death! Doctors to jail! What could go wrong...
It is a total outrage that this girl went to a doctor rather than swallowing a bottle of pills or jumping off a bridge or slashing her wrists. It is a girl so she is very unlikely to shoot herself in the mouth like most of the vets who kill themselves.
She did this publicly and forced you all to notice her killing herself by having a doctor do it and then a media story about it.
Outrage!
This is bad, just bad. It's well-established that even severe and extreme behavior can take hold in the population of teens/younger people and that these behaviors can resolve favorably if given time and perhaps therapy. I'm thinking of the proven social contagion aspects of suicide, anorexia, young "trans" people in general (80% grow out of it by early twenties), and the new "suddenly-trans" teen fad. Even school shootings can be thought of as a slow-motion contagion. I'm thinking that euthanasia laws should forbid even considering approval of euthanasia for those under, say, age 28. After all, as your brain matures you first have to GET to age 25+ (really, age 30 seems to finalize maturity for sure) and then you should live for a few years with your condition and explore all options to relieve the pain, using your now-adult brain and adult perspective.
Uncivilized savages.
Tiergartenstraße 4.
Please, someone, explain to me again why the Nazis were bad.
"....this is my decision and it is final."
Yes. Yes it is.
She should simply have let her Government License to Exist expire.
Laslo wins the thread!
Killing a girl who was raped and couldn't deal with it is perfectly acceptable in the Netherlands. Hanging her rapist(s) however, is unacceptable and uncivilized in the Netherlands.
I have twice before written of my expectation that my wife and/or I will be involuntarily terminated. And both times another commenter, different in each case, declared my fears hysterical. But consider our situation. We are each only children. Our parents, aunts, and uncles have all died. We are the youngest of all the cousins. In my wife's case, youngest by quite a few years. Natural children did not come our way. In all probability, we, or the survivor, will be completely alone as we become more vulnerable. Who will advocate for us when our continued existence becomes inconvenient.
Stories such as this become more not less frequent. The arc of healthcare decisions and payment spirals ever outward from individual control. And yet, It's my fears that are hysterical.
Robert Cook - thanks for the reminder of Nat Hentoff. A great man.
Freeman Hunt,
You must be wrong as I have been repeatedly assured that the Dutch are, and have been for a long time, among the most sophisticated and enlightened of Europeans.
Cookie, ditto.
Pain is never unbearable. If you can't kill yourself, then you'll have to bear it. Simple.
I recognize that extreme pain may be a *good reason* to kill yourself. Or, at least, that reasonable minds could differ on that point. But requiring a doctor to certify that a person's pain is "unbearable" is meaningless; it's just a convenient fiction.
Once the infrastructure and institutions are in place and well-established, who knows where this will lead. It can only grow from here.
I have seen no reference to her parents.
I saw one article (The Sun) that said, "according to Dutch law, her mum did have a say in her daughter's decision" although another article (crimeonline.com) said, "Her mother, Lisette, didn’t have the authority to stop her."
Other articles also talked about when the sexual assaults occurred. How does something like that happen at children's parties? Twice?
Why not euthanize the rapist instead?
Sheesh.
We need these on American college campuses for all the poor dears suffering under the mental anguish of Unsafeness and WrongSpeak.
Whatever happened to "first, do no harm?"
What an extreme reaction!
@DaveBegley
What an extreme reaction!
There is no one under 30 in the Netherlands who has not lived in a culture where euthanasia was extreme. The groundwork was laid very carefully, the march through the institutions proceeded on schedule.
"According to Dutch law, euthanasia is legal as long as it is performed in accordance with the strict standards described in the ‘Termination of Life on Request and Assisted Suicide (Review Procedures) Act’.
It became law in 2002.
Children as young as 12 can be granted euthanasia if they desire, but only after a doctor concludes that the patient’s suffering is unbearable with no clear end in sight."
https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/04/dutch-girl-17-raped-child-euthanised-home-life-unbearable-9806828/
You can see a bit of this in US ICU when an elderly patient is on cusp of being intubated. I remember some really vociferous ICU nurses clearly angry at me (as health care POA) for demanding standard of care. Often the nurses were less deferential than docs. Then there was the phlebotomist yammering to a parent about the harm I was exposing them to. Stay in your fucking lane, bitch.
Hard to believe that this happens in 2019. I guess these really are Heinlein's "crazy years."
Another fine example of a woman's right to choose.
a step on the progression of socialized medicine is that you get to "choose" to have doctors assist you end your life. the endgame is the doctors make the decision for you.
Infinite Monkeys said...
How does something like that happen at children's parties? Twice?
In hindsight, hiring Roman Polanski to do the home movies for my daughter's birthday party a second time might have been a bad idea, especially with what she said he did the first time.
I swear, if this happens a third time he's gonna get a really bad Yelp review...
Recent conversation in the Netherlands:
"I woke up with an unbearable headache."
"Don't worry, I have something for that. It will take all your pain away..."
To be really cynical one might say that we could have a world where, if you missed eliminating the kid before it was born, you can program the kid to finish itself off. Utopia!
How about a addendum to the law?
Since the rapist killed this girl, now he dies.
I've never forgotten watching a documentary on euthanasia when I was a kid in which a Catholic sister warned against creating a society in which the "the right to die can become the duty to die."
"I woke up with an unbearable headache."
"Don't worry, we'll make sure that never happens again."
"The headache?"
"...um...yeah, that too..."
I suffered from clinical depression in my forties. Along with that came suicidal thoughts which for a variety of pretty funky reasons I never followed through on. Had it been easy to off myself, as in this instance, I would have missed about 35 - and counting -terrific years. The girl in question is only going to miss (with decent counseling and maybe some pills for a while) about 70 possibly terrific years. The Dutch should be so proud.
Isn't suicide one of the biggest deaths caused by firearm (in the US)? And is often used as an argument to ban firearms - since people who attempt suicide often are glad that they failed.
She skipped the whole trans-gender genital mutilation step?? I guess that saves time!!
No matter how many times they claim rules will prevent abuses they are lying. Rules will always be reinterpreted to allow whatever the dominant caste prefers.
but only after a doctor determines that the patient’s pain is unbearable"
So we see that control has about as much effect as the need for a doctor to certify an abortion is "medically necessary".
What if the soul is eternal and her lesson in this life was to choose to learn how overcome her trauma? She'll come back (according to the Hindus) and have to deal with that existential issue again and again. BTW, not everyone who has been abused as a child chooses to end her/his life. Oprah Winfrey was raped by a cousin when she was 9, raped again and again by other family members, impregnated at age 14, had a premature delivery of a baby boy who died weeks later. Talk about trauma and learning how to overcome! She made a very different choice.
Just as we were seeing the other day the people who obsess about their supposed facial flaws where their self confidence or lack thereof is determined by what they decide to think about themselves. Why does one person choose to think I'm OK, it's going to be OK and another choose to think I'll never be OK and it'll never be OK? IDK
While I am opposed to suicide for the reasons to which I have alluded, I have known a few people who have committed suicide for emotional reasons. So for that reason I accept the option for euthanasia is a mercy.
The more civilized a society appears, the more barbaric it becomes.
A permanent solution to a (frequently) temporary problem.
I thought everybody contemplated suicide until I learned otherwise, in my twenties.
I was genuinely surprised.
Isn't suicide one of the biggest deaths caused by firearm
Statistics from the NIMH.
Over 50% of male suicide is by firearm. So, no one is going to promote that as a reason to ban firearms.
Netherlands: A 12 year old can decide to die here.
New York: Hold my beer. Here, a 1-minute old can have someone else decide to kill him/her.
I have known a few people who have committed suicide for emotional reasons.
Six immediately come to mind. Five emotional, one constant uncurable headaches.
Had the emos waited it out, life may have become good for them.
Headache guy did the right thing
The government is definitely the best tool to stop this. Make it illegal now.
We need police in the homes and doctors offices now.
Give it a fucking rest, Achilles.
We already have rh here doing a ronco-matic, one-frame-fits-all shtick, and at least he's quite droll sometimes.
anti-de Sitter space said...
How about a addendum to the law?
Since the rapist killed this girl, now he dies.
6/4/19, 2:37 PM
This is you being sincere? Because I don't have much of a problem with that, and if I did, I could probably hold onto it.
But for that matter, why not have the death penalty for rape? Then maybe she would feel better and not need to do the Dutch.
This topic is so distressing that I cannot finish reading it. I am feeling physically ill thinking about that poor young girl who was in such anguish that she could not bear to live and chose to die.. I wish only the worst kind of death for her rapist.
Time washes clean life's wounds unseen.
When you give it time.
"only after a doctor determines that the patient’s pain is unbearable"
Cuz that's what they learn in med school, right? Cuz science says -- wait, what does science say? Anything? This couldn't be just a pseudo-professional fig leaf for state-supported suicide, could it?
Sydney: Terrible. Imagine having your despair validated by professionals you should be able to trust and turn to for help.
Makes one wonder what kind of "counseling" was offered to this girl for her trauma. How many people in such situations (i.e., not the situations for which euthanasia was originally supposed to be offered) never have any affirmation of the worth of life, or their own value, from the "professionals", the counselors, the "bioethicists"? But instead, that oh-so-compassionate "validation". "Oh yes, you're feelings must be respected! Life has no intrinsic value, and neither do you!" To not validate in any way would be a violation of the patient's human rights, no doubt.
And I say that as someone who has no intention of sticking around and rotting away in a nursing home after the old bod no longer works worth a damn.
Kafka's heroes experience dying even when they're not dying. To enjoy it is the trick. To be death's equal.
Maybe related to Thomas Mann calling Kafka a religious humorist.
Obviously this girl should have been a writer. If she can't write, then a drummer.
Hey- Suicidal Fetus here-- someone gimme a hand? I can't pull this off myself.
Every properly functioning organism struggles for its survival.
Pass the Soma, it's a brave new world
Coincidentally, a few minutes ago in Silicon Valley:
"Overpass Male Jumper Closes SB Highway 101 At 10th St. In SJ: CHP
The man was hit by several vehicles, none of which stopped as witnesses, CHP reported. Now it needs public assistance for the investigation. "
( Everybody too busy to stop, I guess)
There but for the grace of God go I.
Literally.
At that age I may have made the same decision due to unbearable bullying. Middle school was an unrelieved nightmare for me.
I'd say it took a good 10 years to get over it. But I finally did. My heart bleeds for this poor child. How dare doctors tell her that her life is so meaningless!
: Terrible. Imagine having your despair validated by professionals you should be able to trust and turn to for help.
Did they try marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, meth, or heroin? Millions of people do that to change the way they feel.
"Nietzsche's words resound like an echo of liberty. One doesn't kill oneself, but one can. This is a marvelous resource. Without this supply of oxygen close at hand we would smother, we could no longer live. Having death within reach, docile and reliable, makes life possible, for it is exactly what provides air, space, free and joyful movement: it is possihbility."
Blanchot _The Space of Literature_ p.97
on Kirilov. "Why suicide? If he dies freely, if he experiences and proves to himself his liberty in death and the liberty of his death, he will have attained the absolute. He will be absolutely man, and there will be no absolute outside of him...God is gambling his own existence in this freely chosen death which a resolute man takes upon himself...Kirilov's suicide thus becomes the death of God...After him, men will no longer need to kill themselves."
I am tempted to view this as natural selection at work. However, what I truly believe is happening is that women/feminists have put so much stress on how horrible rape is, that they have created so much stigma around it, that women who are raped find it more difficult than they might otherwise, to move past the event.
Please don't infer in any way that I think rape should not be a crime. Rather, what I am suggesting is that the culture can make it more or less survivable. I suspect this poor girl's trauma was heightened by the culture in which she found herself.
I worked hard my adult life to get ahead so I can enjoy my golden years, and pass along to the kids. I'm almost certain to get Alzhiemers soon enough. Option 1: squander it all on medical and be a burden to my children. Option 2: commit suicide and do what I intended with the money and not drag my loved ones through the pain.
The drugs are already stored away. The timing is what's a bitch.
Psychiatrist Adolf Guggenbuhl-Craig says it's therapeutically harmful to treat rape victims as not at least partly at fault themselves. Letting them take some blame puts life back in their control.
Kenneth Burke says suicide most often represents change, in literature.
( Everybody too busy to stop, I guess)
Traffic gets by okay, driving around loose heads and body parts, until the police arrive and close down the whole freeway to ten hours. That's a modern development.
No matter how many times they claim rules will prevent abuses they are lying. Rules will always be reinterpreted to allow whatever the dominant caste prefers.
but only after a doctor determines that the patient’s pain is unbearable"
So we see that control has about as much effect as the need for a doctor to certify an abortion is "medically necessary".
Someone didn't care enough to help her? This is total insanity.
I understand a terminal illness that is painful - and the end is near anyway. I get that one.
I dunno, is it possible to blow Rape out of proportion? Is the reaction to rape partly a societal construct, something given undue weight as a way to control men's worst impulses? A throwback to the "woman and children to life boats while the men die, because society views the female's reproductive role as more valuable?
Of course it's horrible, but we treat the rape of a woman as being worse than murdering her, an atrocity almost equal to the holocaust.
Men get raped. Nobody gives a shit. They make jokes about being a prison bitch.
but only after a doctor determines that the patient’s pain is unbearable
Those rugged individualists need permission die. Lame.
Another way to look at this is that it’s the downside of individualism.
You cannot die if you have obligations outstanding, such as marriage and childbearing for the sake of the clan.
The state cannot substitute for the essential small-group human communalism.
What a waste of life. And yes, this is what you get when you have abortion up to birth. Suicide on demand.
Moral bankruptcy. For if you really believe in the sanctity of life then you will do all you can to preserve it. We all know people can and do change their minds over time, but death allows no time to reconsider and realize life is good, even after some evil has been done.
The job of the living is to live. The job of family and friends is to endure with suffering loved ones and to help them find meaning. It's akin in my mind to rescuing a drowning person.
A close friend killed himself after a tough childhood at 22, and I still wonder what others and I might have done. Afterward, a psych prof and psychologist friend both said this to me: "I think we just have to let them go." A certain number of people drown every year, right?
In our state, a 12-year-old girl who sold handmade crafts for animal rescue killed herself in June 2017 after her first year of middle school. She had been bullied in person and online (one text: "Why don't you kill yourself?") since October. There are ways to organize middle schools that can minimize this crap, but that school didn't employ them. The state has a detailed anti-bullying law that starts with logging each parental or student report, starting with the first one; that school district did none of it. No consequences for administrators, parents of bullies or the bullies themselves. In fact, adolescent suicide has been rising in the US in recent years.
It's nice that we don't allow state-sanctioned suicide for 12-year-olds, but we should not be complacent.
Those rugged individualists need permission die. Lame.
Yeah, that's the issue. This person wasn't bedridden or a quadriplegic, she was perfectly capable of killing herself on her own, but chose to go through approved channels and get put down by a doctor. Which suggests to me that she probably wouldn't have killed herself if society hadn't provided an approved method of suicide.
Anyone involved in helping this girl kill herself should be deeply ashamed. I consider it evil.
Rate your pain on a scale of 1 to 10.
A seven? OK,we're going to start an IV now......
The Dutch loaded their own citizens into boxcars, so I’m not surprised by the doctor’s okay.
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp412.htm
My partner suffers from chronic depression. Hard to treat chemically because also suffers from anxiety and panic disorders, which cannot be treated together. I hate to think what might have happened if the US allowed euthanasia on this basis.
Any doctor who "assisted" my 17 year old in killing herself would be joining her very shortly thereafter.
I have seen no reference to her parents.
There's a quote from the parents in the linked article.
Here is another article on her from Jan of 18 which the site offered to translate to English.
Noa
From the page:
Half a year ago a 16-year-old girl from Arnhem approached the Levenseind clinic in The Hague without her parents' knowledge. Her question: am I eligible for euthanasia or assistance with suicide? The answer was "no."
...t's a story that needs to be told, her parents think. They are close to despair.
,, What must, what can we still do? We have tried everything. Which institution can still help her? Noa has every hope that she can be lost even better. Time is running out, that's how it feels', say father Frans and mother Lisette.
They are now eagerly looking for a hospital where Noa can get an electroshock treatment for major depression. In addition, electrical impulses are given in the brain. ,,Why not? It is a matter of life and death. "
Your choice though.
To prevent your family pain, of course.
Gonna hafta disagree.
Hang in there 'til the very end. Let the family see you suffer through the last months or years of your life. Let them feed you because you cannot do it. When you refuse to open your mouth, a medical professional will help you, in order to keep you alive.
Let the family listen to you moan in pain all your waking hours, begging God to end your suffering. Let them read to you and talk to you, although your hearing is gone.
Let them kiss you on the cheek as they leave for awhile, although you lost your sight last week, along with your hearing.
Let them change your diaper after your once every three or four days bowel movement or your constant uncontrolled urine flow.
All the while, the family can reminisce about the awards you won during your lifetime., How decent and enjoyable a person you were at all times.
Whatever happens, do not take the shortcut and ask for an easy, quick, final relief to your suffering. 'twould be extremely selfish of you to deprive them of those final good times together.
bullied in person and online (one text: "Why don't you kill yourself?")
"KYS" is a common comment
ok, here's a question:
To be, or not to be--
Whether it's nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep--
No more--and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. 'It's a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep--
To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprise of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action. --
...there's the rub--"the undiscovered country,
from whose bourn no traveller returns".
Is there a moral component to the process?
How is this even surprising to people?
The Left will say anything, anything at all, knowing full well they are lying, in order to get their destructive policies turned into reality.
Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. They said thousands of women died from botched abortions but that isn't what the data shows. Not even close. Now they actually celebrate it and call it women's health.
Euthanasia was the same thing. Terminal illness, wasn't it?
The Left is a death cult disguised as an enlightened movement. Mostly to convince themselves, because the rest of us aren't buying it.
@Swede said
The Left is a death cult disguised as an enlightened movement. Mostly to convince themselves, because the rest of us aren't buying it.
we may not be buying it, but that doesnt seem to stop them forcing the sale.
As we said in the other thread re: travel-- oh to have the Left strictly adhere to their mores and leave the rest of us alone.
Bake that Cake, mutherfukker!
You'll figure it out later down the road Mary. Life isn't just platitudes and gobbledygook.
Rate your pain on a scale of 1 to 10. A seven? OK,we're going to start an IV now......
Precautionary principle. The same "principle" that justifies an extreme proactive response to the prophecy of catastrophic anthropogenic global warming.
would these same doctors have advised a despondent Stephen Hawking to off himself?
she probably wouldn't have killed herself if society hadn't provided an approved method of suicide
Self-abortion. Nay, elective abortion, through a politically correct channel. Her choice. A woman's rite... of passage.
She hesitated, perhaps with a glimmer of a future self, which was snuffed out with a facilitating hand.
how many of our 'greats' had to be 'talked off the ledge" at some point?
Are we disappointed at the deaths of people like Hemmingway, etc?
our gifts, our life, is it only for ourselves, or do we have a moral obligation to share/enrich humanity with them?
Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard: you are one of a very small minority whose comments I always anticipate, appreciate, and look forward to. Your absence here would significantly diminish the quality of discourse here.
I thought "Pain" meant physical Pain. Aka Real pain. As opposed to "emotional pain". This case makes me a little queasy, its hard not to think that this 17 y/o needed a good counselor and some love - not an easy way to die.
But who knows.
There is a term for this mentality -- lebensunwertes leben. When the Germans were doing this sort of thing, people were appalled and hanged the people involved.
Someone referenced a potential 'duty to die' rising from a 'right to die.' Makes me wonder why we don't have a duty to smoke and drink, or undertake dangerously stupid stunts?
The involvement of the medicoes is always interesting, in that there is an assumption, based on nothing more, as I'm not the first to note here, than a (Western!) tradition, that somehow doctors and physicians are any more than learned hired help. The lawyers can scribble and try to make the doctors responsible, the doctors and ethicists can pull their chins, and the shamans can chant and jabber--and people will continue to abort, to self-abort, and otherwise live and die as suits them.
Narr
Cry me a river
The thing about the "slippery slope" is that, because it is inherently concerned about the bad of tomorrow, it doesn't really see the horrific evil that is right before our eyes.
No, we don't have to worry about what this could lead to. The HELL that exists now is enough.
"Oh, I got it figured out, pacwest. You're the one crying for help here."
Just stating my personal opinion on suicide at end of life. No help necessary. I've got it from here.
But do us all a favor and make sure you are covered for your end of life so we don't have to pay for it. If you want to make everyone miserable on the way out the door that's your choice.
Please, someone, explain to me again why the Nazis were bad.
It appears we owe Karl Brandt, et al., an apology.
She was just making room for another migrant which is precisely what her Government wants.
Rate your pain on a scale of 1 to 10.
A seven? OK, we're going to start an IV now......
It only requires a 4.
Wait a minute FullMoon... My wife hat a TBI at age 23 via head on collision. She hit the A-Post. Comorbitity of migraine headache for 4 of 7 days. Osteopathic cranial manipulation was tried and provided relief to lesser pain 3 of 7 days. Later in life, a Korean M.D. provided occipital marcaine inections and even greater, but short lived, semblance of relief. Years ago, He was first in our state to use Botox Blocks on her. Blue Cross pitched a battle over coverage, but lost their case. With regular maintenance, she is now pain free for months at a time. Long Hard Road, but doable.
Electro Convulsive Therapy works for many suffering deep depression. Seen it happen in several cases... good as new! Also, having witnessed several auto accidents where the victim was ejected to the pavement at high speed, the un-reality of the event tells me those Californian drivers will shiver for their remaining days on the planet.
Smart sophisticated people like to laugh at backwards moralistic prudes when they blather on about "slippery slopes."
Ha, ha, I guess.
I'm not a good Libertarian 'cause this doesn't strike me as ok.
IMO, she was bearing the pain up to the moment she was killed. I guess it is semantics that she felt the pain insufferable rather than unbearable, but I think she was more correct.
This also seems askew of the Hippocratic Oath, but via Wikipedia; I see the Oath has already been bastardized. It used to include this line:
"Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course."
Now it reads:
"I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability."
Well then, let's not let the 17 year old be a further drain on her family and the economy.
As is so often the case, there are several different things going on at the same time.
First anyone that wants to commit suicide can do it. Anyone that thinks about it can probably come up with half a dozen different ways to do so in under an hour.
The only exception would be if someone was incapacitated and incapable of moving.
Thus what is the point of having a law that 'allows' people to commit suicide?
There is none. Nothing is achieved by this. Unless the goal is actually something else. For some parties I wonder if the goal is to lower the barriers against killing people and to make it acceptable to try to persuade certain people to commit suicide.
Second, all of the countries that have nationalized health care are encouraging their elderly to die. They do it by making certain kinds of healthcare illegal for someone over a certain age or sick beyond a certain level or they do it by putting people on wait lists that stretch out over years.
This is the mathematical heart of nationalized health care. Most of the expense is in treating quite elderly people and if even a small percentage of them can be encouraged to die early, it significantly lowers the national burden.
Also the mathematical reality of healthcare is that it is such an expensive commodity that if it were truly not rationed it would suck up all resources.
Of course all countries encourage some people, especially the elderly, to die. But in a country without nationalized health care it's usually done on the basis that the person can't afford treatment and it's not seen as a character flaw for people to want to live.
Perhaps more importantly without nationalized health care you can assume the doctor is on your side and is trying to help you. But in country with nationalized health care doctors are hidden agents of death, trying to persuade the elderly to not use expensive medical treatments. And in many cases the doctor will actually be penalized for treating patients outside the hidden boundaries of what the health care system defines as to be encouraged.
Third there is the question of how susceptible people are to social pressure. Some people are so suggestive that I think they can be persuaded to suicide. In a country where medical suicide is legal, how much of this sort of thing will be really because the suicidal person wants to?
Fourth, do people who want to commit suicide, really want to commit suicide? People are clearly conflicted. They are not just one thing. A high percentage of attempted suicides fail. How could this be since there are so many fail-safe ways to do it? I speculate that it is because one part of the person wants to do it and another part doesn't.
We all have two brains. Men perhaps more so than women because boys below about age 10 have almost no connections between their right and the left brains even as adults will have far fewer than women. Perhaps it's a common thing for the two brains to disagree about suicide and for one to undermine the other.
Guns, abortion, euthanasia... all different facets of the culture of death that John Paul II spoke of.
A not unimportant side issue wrt the leftist cult of death and ill regard for the sanctity of life: Washington state's new law that allows human remains to be composted.
I will shed no tears as the muslims over run their diseased society. The decent westerners left in the Netherlands should emigrate, and leave the degenerates to their richly deserved fate.
https://twitter.com/ChuckLane1/status/1136009341092470786?s=20
Appears the waiting list for mental health treatment was too long, so the triage option was.......
Wow on the tweet...
What if she had been able to get the health care she needed, instead of being put on a waiting list.
And seems the country is run by elites that are out of touch with the common people / nationalism, and pro immigrant.
And omg on the Jewish ww2 link.
The term for the family and friends that survive a person suiciding is survivor.
I’m still amazed at somebody 30+ years ago that suicided in my high school. He had everything. Sports, super high gpa, junior, was handsome, treated a poor little freshman nicely. Unfortunately he had tunnel vision, only saw darkness, and used his police officer fathers gun, and ended his life. What a waste. Suicides usually cause a huge amount of pain among the survivors, and often causes other suicides. It’s an area that is under explored, because of all the associated taboos.
Thus what is the point of having a law that 'allows' people to commit suicide?
Perhaps it's about allowing people a humane way to take their own lives. Pills are a bad choice, you can vomit them up or injure others on your way out. What if you screw it up and the ER triage saves your life at the expense of someone else who deserved their attention? A shotgun is most effective, but it's violent and very messy.
I'm a Three-Faced Janus on the issue.
The Libertarian in me says it's MY frickin life and, as long as I am of sound mind and not being coerced, it's no one else's business. Quite frankly, the people that get up in your ass about it have no idea what they are talking about. Like the busybodies who try to interfere in a marital dispute like it's a game or hobby for them.
The Conservative in me doesn't believe the government should have the power to execute civilians. That's why I favor life imprisonment over the death penalty. History shows the most lethal predator of human beings is Government, which is why our Founding Fathers were so careful in studying and choosing our form of government. I see the legalization of suicide as a slippery slope, and we already have history on this - UK and American doctors withholding life saving care because the patient was deemed an Expendable. And that's just another word for Deplorable. Better hide your reading list from Nurse Ratchet.
But the Furion in me :) says if I decide I've had enough of this world and want to step out, it's my call. And if you try to stop me I'll bring you along as company. Look to your own life. If you need more drama in it, I can make that happen for you.
he dumped his trouble on all the readers her
Can you just leave him be? Please?
Suicide? Just say no!
I can't recall who said it first--having suicide as an option has gotten many people through some dark nights.
To deny that I think about suicide, or murder, or any number of unpleasant things, is to deny that I think about death and violence. When I was first learning about the Holocaust (on my own, kiddies) one of the most striking stories to me was the Jewish father at Treblinka, who hanged first his son and then himself . . . he would choose the time and manner of his death. That to me is heroic, stoic, admirable, worthy of Masada in its way.
Would I choose such a death? Who knows?
Narr
I got nothing on Dutch basket cases
Whatever happens, do not take the shortcut and ask for an easy, quick, final relief to your suffering. 'twould be extremely selfish of you to deprive them of those final good times together.
Yup. Watched my father go through chemo months before he died. I could hear him in the next room, retching so violently and for so long that he broke him down into uncontrollable sobbing and crying.
I remember reflexively jamming my fingers in my ears. Some subconcious mechanism in my brain had kicked in to block the imput so I would not have to live with that memory of his pain.
He got hospice a month later. His last days were soft and gentle, his wife of 40 years feeding him ice and reminiscing about their life together. That humane option should be available to everyone, we aren't animals.
No, when people threaten suicide, or taking others out with them, we act.
You are a malignant narcissist. You are not helping others, you are helping yourself feel good about something wrong with your life by pretending you are a good person who saves lives. It's sick, get therapy.
Now YOU sound like a teen age boy crying for help
Oh go fuck yourself. The horror that haunts you most in life was the day they gave your mani-pedi appointment away because you were 5 min late getting to the Mall.
You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Remember, you're on a public blog with an open, sometimes moderated, comments section, talking about your suicide and debating if you are going to take people with you.
No. I am saying that I believe I have the right to die and if you want to stick your nose in my personal life, I will gladly beat you to death with your own jaw bone.
You're just a busy-body looking for attention. Go find a therapist to work out whatever problem in your life is so horrible that you have to "save lives" to compensate for it.
Can you just leave him be? Please?
See above, I asked you nicely, you nosy cunt.
But you want to play. Fine. Let's play. I was bored with Cookie anyway.
Somebody I know Suicided.
They thought it was the right thing to do. They had depression issues, but they had so much to live for.
The pain they caused through their actions among their loved ones, is huge. The plans their daughter had to go on many vacation with her parents in their golden years, are destroyed. Now she follows the surviving spouse helping them cope with life, without the person they were with/married to for over 50 years. The granddaughter that found the suicidee, and called 911, has also been traumatized.
And they picked an incredibly painful way to suicide, and they lingered for 2 days.
It is so sad.
Suicide if often a Huge F.U., and Incredibly Selfish.
But, when a person is deeply depressed, all they can see is the unbearable pain they are in. And often they don't see way out of it, except suicide.
The suicide rate in the US is probably 3X of the official count. Head on car crashes into trees are counted as driver errors... So many heart failures, when we all die of heart failure, as Heinlein noted.
Dealing with elderly relatives, bedridden, at the end of their life is hard.
It is very hard on the care givers.
Often after the death, the family caregiver has a mental and physical breakdown.
Grief is a very powerful emotion.
The US culture does not deal well with death.
This is a situation I am dealing with, and it's heart breaking what is happening to the caregiver. My poor relative. I'm doing my best to help, but unfortunately my childless relative felt estranged from her family, so they gave somebody else medical power of attorney, etc. And the POA is not family, and unless something changes (and I see no evidence of this), my relative will be dead soon. I am so frustrated and sad.
I have two thoughts - one, where there is life, there is hope. Not anymore for the girl.
The second thought - And so it begins. Again.
Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...
The government is definitely the best tool to stop this. Make it illegal now.
We need police in the homes and doctors offices now.
Give it a fucking rest, Achilles.
We already have rh here doing a ronco-matic, one-frame-fits-all shtick, and at least he's quite droll sometimes.
No.
You give it a rest. WTF is up with you people trying to make shit illegal as if that would do any good at all?
Oh you made it illegal for doctors to assist. So after 3 tries a person finally swallows enough pills on their own.
Victory for the nanny humpers.
Or maybe you should throw suicidal people in jail or have them committed.
I bet the government would do a bang up job deciding just exactly Who the suicidal people are.
Police in every doctors office now!
And that girl posting sad messages on facebook? Commit her before she slits her wrists.
That will make everything better.
Apparently this story was widely misreported. The poor girl was not actively euthanized (that was refused). The family did not force her to take food and she died in palliative care after refusing to eat.
Here is the thread unwinding it:
https://twitter.com/naomiohreally/status/1136189899672084480?s=21
Washington Post retracts earlier headline story, replaces with still misleading storyline.
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1136232499892408321?s=21
Your should add an asterisk to your post at least.
"you had really felt confidence in your plans, you would talked them over with your family and felt comfortable with them."
Already did that. I'm not really interested in correcting all your misassumptions. Don't get your panties in a bunch. I'm probably a decade out yet anyway.
Are you this abrasive in your personal life or do you make a special effort online?
Shouldn't her rapist now be accused of murder?
The initial reporting on the Dutch teenager allegedly killed via euthanasia may have been wrong. Global Media Misreporst Dutch Teen Author's Death
She was not euthanized. She was denied euthanasia so she starved herself and refused treatment (I.e. forced feeding), which is her right. It is a very sad story.
Some of these comments here are disgusting.
a: She was not euthanized. She was denied euthanasia so she starved herself and refused treatment (I.e. forced feeding), which is her right. It is a very sad story.
This would be a reasonable comment about an inaccurately-reported case involving an older person with a terminal condition/intractable pain problem.
But reducing a severely depressed, anorexic, rape-victim 17-year old's starving herself to death to a matter of "rights" is a reflex reaction indicative of brain-death.
Some of these comments here are disgusting.
Lot of that going around.
From yesterday's Cafe:
Blogger narciso said...
Here's the context:
https://twitter.com/ChuckLane1/status/1136009341092470786
6/5/19, 9:31 AM
Blogger walter said...
Narciso,
I wondered about that..but thought it would have been widely reported. Fail on my part.
From narciso's link:
Charles Lane
Verified account @ChuckLane1
19h19 hours ago
Child's mother in Dutch press: "There are also huge waiting lists there. We actually want one place for her, where she can stay and where all her physical and mental problems are addressed. You can't find it in the Netherlands. " Untreatable illness?
25 replies 138 retweets 459 likes
Charles Lane
Verified account @ChuckLane1
From Dutch press:
Noa had to wait half a year for a treatment place in an eating disorder clinic in Zutphen, which meant she eventually had to undergo tube feeding for a year at Rijnstate Hospital.
If accurate, we have a case of systemic failure being "resolved" by mercy-killing
1:38 PM - 4 Jun 2019
6/5/19, 10:12 AM Delete
And remember- mainstream media with it's layers, just layers upon layers of fact checkers, all reported this story incorrectly.
Note though, this: "Noa had to wait half a year for a treatment place in an eating disorder clinic in Zutphen." Now, I don't know anyone here in the United States who's ever had to go into an eating disorder clinic. I suspect the wait time is somewhat similar to that for substance abuse clinics. Zero days. I've known many a person trundled off to a clinic the same day they showed up drunk at work, or got drunk at work. Unfortunately, I've known many a person trundled off to a clinic the same day they showed up drunk at work, or got drunk at work. Seems to be an occupational hazard in my line of work.
Another example of the hazards of single payer government run healthcare- care rationing.
Ohio doctor charged with 25 counts of murder in painkiller overdose deaths
"Mount Carmel Health System found Husel ordered potentially fatal drug doses for 29 patients over several years, including five who may have been given that pain medication when there still was a chance to improve their conditions with treatment. The hospital system said six more patients got doses that were excessive but likely didn't cause their deaths.
Many of the deceased patients were seriously ill. Any potential motive remains unclear.
Police Sgt. Terry McConnell said none of the affected families police spoke with felt what happened was "mercy treatment."
The doctor
A decade ago, a staunch pro-lifer told me that euthenasia was just another name for eugenics. Those with conditions as trivial as premature baldness would be said to have a "right to die with dignity".
I thought that was crazy hyperbole.
@Achilles
WTF is up with you people trying to make shit illegal as if that would do any good at all?
Oh you made it illegal for doctors to assist. So after 3 tries a person finally swallows enough pills on their own.
Over here in reality, it's an observed fact that a large majority of people who survive an attempt at suicide never attempt again. So, in fact, making it illegal for doctors to provide effective assistance does good, at least from the perspective of the people who decide to go on living after a failed attempt.
Steven said...
Over here in reality, it's an observed fact that a large majority of people who survive an attempt at suicide never attempt again.
I understand this is especially true of jumpers, who have a lot more time to think about what they did after they did it- before the consequences of doing it hit.... or they hit the consequences, or whatever.
This story was false. The woman in question was denied euthanasia. Poor journalism.
Exactly, Unknown.
The Guardian:
Dutch girl was not 'legally euthanised' and died at home
Noa Pothoven is believed to have refused to eat and there is no evidence of assisted death
A severely ill Dutch girl widely reported by international media as having been “legally euthanised” in a clinic in the Netherlands died at home, apparently after voluntarily refusing to eat or drink and with no evidence that her death was assisted.
Kassaar
Amsterdam
Culture of death.
This story has been walking around with me for several hours.
Beyond the was-it-suicide question and whether she could have been helped more by medical people, did no one think about going out and finding the men who raped her and also the boys/men who abused her before the rape on the street? She said in her book that she would like the rapists to be caught and held to account. Who wouldn't?
If the rapists had been caught and held to account, might that not have been helpful to her? It would be a community assertion that acts of violence toward an innocent person were an offense to community. That SHE MATTERED -- and that the men who hurt her had bigger problems, much worse problems, than she did.
My guess is that she got a lot of "We're just worried about you" messages when she was mourning that she had been powerless to protect herself and nobody else seemed to want to step up to protect her. If that was how her mind framed the situation, is it a little less surprising that she made the choice she did?
THIS WAS NO EUTHANASIA. NOA STOPPED EATING AND DRINKING BY HER OWN FREE WILL. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF FAKENEWS ON THE INTERNET ABOUT THE DEATH OF THIS YOUNG GIRL. PLEASE CHECK YOUR FACTS.
Query whether parents and state colluding to allow malnutrition and starvation of a troubled young girl is a species of euthanasia. And who would be responsible for importing tens of thousands of foreigners that despise the locals and their culture?
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