June 20, 2019

"But what is exhausting about the current debate over the use of the words concentration camp goes beyond Trump and his made-up reality."

"At its heart, the question is: Should we call these camps, where a distinct group of people is being detained by the government, by their proper scholarly name? Or should we avoid it because it invokes* the Holocaust and might somehow diminish from the attendant suffering of those who perished there? Again, the question turns on emotion, on individualized reactions to the specific words, rather than on accuracy and precision; as many have pointed out, the term 'concentration camp' predates the Holocaust and does not require an intention toward genocide.... Are we now spending more time on the labels than on the actual harms? In a time of information overload and outrage fatigue, is fighting over what we call things coming at the cost of fighting against the things themselves? The sometimes threadbare political axiom 'if you’re explaining, you’re losing' comes to mind.... But we must question whether battles over who is most affronted by references to the Holocaust come under the category of explaining, or trying to find shared meanings, or reaching for truth.... What matters is that words still have the capacity to move, inspire, and terrify us. If they can still do that, perhaps they can still push us to act, even if we don’t always agree."

I'm reading "The AOC–Liz Cheney 'Concentration Camp' Fight Might Just Be a Distraction" by Dahlia Lithwick and Susan Matthews (Slate).

______________

* In an essay about words, it's a good idea to use the right words yourself. It should be evokes, not invokes.

238 comments:

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Bilwick said...

Isn't Lithwick a "liberal"? (And by that I mean of course "tax-happy, coercion-addicted, power-tripping State fellator.") If so she shouldn't be throwing stones at anyone for making up reality. She lives in the same Cloud Cuckoo Land as Inga, where increasing statism only makes things better.

BUMBLE BEE said...

I remember a quote from Maclean's Magazine during the Obama administratio where they quoted an Inspector from Interpol who said that at any one time, $),))) people were trying to get to Germany, the UK and America.

Static Ping said...

On a technical level, "concentration camp" is a correct term. It's not the standard image we have of such things since the "inmates" can leave and go home whenever they want, the camps are not meant to be a long-term solution, and the aliens are being treated much better than almost any other example you would like to bring up, but, yes, it is technically correct.

That said, AOC probably did mean to compare it to Nazi concentration camps, as the context makes clear. However, I will leave open the possibility that AOC is so dumb that she does not know of what she speaks. Given her various responses since the brouhaha started, I can go either or both ways.

BUMBLE BEE said...

Forty thousand! quite a snapshot.

Ken B said...

Obama camps. Obama had them, right? I'm flexible though. Obama-style camps is acceptable too.

Kay said...

Ken B said...
Obama camps. Obama had them, right? I'm flexible though. Obama-style camps is acceptable too.
6/20/19, 3:05 PM


How come conservatives weren't praising Obama back when he was the one putting children in cages? The man can never catch a break it seems.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

"Thats why the history of WWII as taught in US schools for many decades has consisted almost entirely of the Japanese internment and the atomic bomb."

I've actually said that online AS A JOKE, or at least as hyperbole. I didn't realize that I was actually right.

As a war atrocity, on a scale of 1 to the Rape of Nanjing, Japanese internment rates a 0, and that's if you round up.

Leora said...

The big difference is the asylum seekers can leave any time they are willing to return to their home countries. That's waiting in line, not detention.

JackWayne said...

I think Althouse buries the lede. Here’s the money quote in my opinion: “It’s about what tactics we deploy to make that noun matter.” This shows the entire article is about Orwellian tactics. They imply that the nouns are fluid. Only the tactics remain the same.

Rick said...

See if you can spot the difference

I found it amusing his own evidence proved him wrong and he wasn't even smart enough to notice.

Good times.

Birkel said...

I'm just happy AOC supports building a wall to keep the concentration camp numbers down.

Who is with me?

walter said...

Discussion here reminds me of an Hispanic NPR guest equating the border wall being akin to the Berlin wall.
Must have a helluva time with one way streets.

WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WWIII Joe Biden, Husk-Puppet + America's Putin said...

Ocasio-Cortez Gets Head Stuck In Bucket, Journalists Rush To Explain Why It Was Actually A Genius Move

walter said...

If she concentrates, she can extract herself.

n.n said...

the asylum seekers can leave any time they are willing to return to their home countries. That's waiting in line, not detention.

Also, safeguarding women and children from predators in their midst.

walter said...

Maybe AOC heard that NPR guest when bartending:

"No matter how you feel about the wall, you know, I think it’s a moral abomination, I think it’s like the Berlin Wall." AOC continued: "I think it’s like any other wall designed to separate human beings and block out people who are running away from the humanitarian disasters. I just think it’s wrong."

Rick said...

On a technical level, "concentration camp" is a correct term.

Detention Center is the correct term. A concentration camp takes something that is static but spread out and moves it to a central location or group of locations. But we are not combing America identifying Hispanics to concentrate. People are not being identified because of what they are (Hispanic for example) but because of what they have done (entered the country without passing the immigration rules). These centers are no more concentration camps than county jails are.

Jim at said...

How come conservatives weren't praising Obama back when he was the one putting children in cages?

I can't seem to find any conservatives 'praising' Trump for doing it, either.

But maybe - just maybe - some of us support the rule of law when it comes to illegal immigration no matter who's in office?

Is that a possibility, Ms. Snark?

Mary Beth said...

as many have pointed out, the term 'concentration camp' predates the Holocaust and does not require an intention toward genocide

They make a nice argument. (The original meaning of "nice" was "stupid". It seems appropriate since they're relying on the original meaning of "concentration camp" in order to pretend they aren't trying to get a visceral reaction by using that term now.)

Steven said...

The fundamental linguistic error here is that the United States is not taking populations from their homes to concentrate them in camps. Thus they are not concentration camps, while (for example) the camps that the British put Boers in or FDR put Japanese-Americans in were.

Similarly, they are not internment camps because nobody in them is interned. To "intern" is "to confine within the limits of a country, district, or place; to oblige to reside within prescribed limits without permission to leave them." But anyone who goes to the guards in a US immigration detention facility and asks to go home? They get sent back home. Thus they are not internment camps either, while (for example) the camps that the British put Boers in or FDR put Japanese-Americans in were.

Seriously, it's really basic English. These facilities do not exist for the purpose of concentration of people, nor do they hold internees. Therefore there is no legitimate reason, "scholarly" or otherwise, to misapply those labels. If you use them, it's because you're deliberately trying to manipulate people.

J. Farmer said...

@walter

"No matter how you feel about the wall, you know, I think it’s a moral abomination, I think it’s like the Berlin Wall." AOC continued: "I think it’s like any other wall designed to separate human beings and block out people who are running away from the humanitarian disasters. I just think it’s wrong."

Oh boy. Someone should explain to Ms. Ocasio-Cortez the difference between walls intended to keep people in versus walls intended to keep people out.

Michael K said...

Someone should explain to Ms. Ocasio-Cortez

There is no reason to try to explain anything to her. She is an actress recruited by an audition process like many others were. She was successful in defeating a long term incumbent who, no doubt, thought she was a fool and ignored her. The powers behind her and the DSA managed to get enough votes from the greater fools in NYC who voted for Wilhem (DeBlasio).

She is a cypher.

Fen said...

Farmer: No, the opponents should be pointing out to the America public the crisis at the border, how US immigration policies are feeding it and what should be done about it instead of squabbling over "what is a concentration camp."

See, I don't think you actually believe that. Maybe that's unfair, but you lost alot of credibility with me when you went to 11 because Trump hadn't presto-chango built the damn wall already. I was with you on the impatience, but your over-reaction implied you wanted to dump Trump for the lack of progress: "Unreasonable, probably a moby trying to cleave support from Trump over the slow progress on border security". I found it a weird reaction to the only President who has made ANY progress on that front after 30 years and 3 specific promises in exchange for amnesty.

Then I started to notice a pattern with you - always throwing cold water on Trump victories, always telling us why a win was just a local story we shouldn't celebrate, always telling us why we shouldn't fight this battle or take that hill. Very reminiscent of the GOP Failure Theater before Trump showed us it was all a big lie.

So I have a strong suspicion: you advise we not put up a fight over the "concentration camp" agit-prop and focus on "the crisis at the border, how US immigration policies are feeding it and what should be done about it"... but I have a feeling that if we did so effectively, you would throw cold water on it and advise we abandon that fight for another. And on and on and on.

I'm not saying these things to be mean or insulting, I'm saying them because I expect you will become frustrated and feel victimized, and I want you to understand why (fair or not) you are working under a credibility problem.

cf said...

looks like the new Migration officer for Mexico is kicking butt(aiming for 2,500 a day returned to home countries), and telling NGOs to welcome 50 migrants apiece into their own houses. He would have choice words for AOC, who by her double surname and elegant features, reveals herself as your Elitist Spaniard-type latin, the kind that kindly hire shorter darker indios & mestizos (mixed) as their cooks, washer women and gardeners in their compounds, and assume they rule the world.

here's a translated link to this interesting hero of the moment, Garduno Yanez:
http://www.notimex.gob.mx/ntxnotaLibre/714158/instala-inm-12-puntos-en-frontera-sur-prevé-deportar-dos-mil-500-al-día

God Bless all the Americas.

Fen said...

AOC continued: "I think it’s like any other wall designed to separate human beings and block out people who are running away from the XhumanitarianX Socialist disasters. I just think it’s wrong."

FIFY

Fen said...

He would have choice words for AOC, who by her double surname and elegant features, reveals herself as your Elitist Spaniard-type latin, the kind that kindly hire shorter darker indios & mestizos (mixed) as their cooks, washer women and gardeners in their compounds, and assume they rule the world.

Yup. Sarah Hoyt hails from Portugal and refers the "double barrel Surname" of Ocasio-Cortez much the way you do. It's a thing, apparently.

n.n said...

looks like the new Migration officer for Mexico is kicking butt(aiming for 2,500 a day returned to home countries), and telling NGOs to welcome 50 migrants apiece into their own houses

A beginning to emigration reform. No longer will Persons... people be trafficked, nor children be indoctrinated, nor gerrymandered districts, nor murder nor rape (rape-rape) and violations of civil rights, claim lives across the bridge in a progressive twilight. Progress.

Now to address the causes of immigration reform as refugee crises, mass migration, insourcing, etc.

buwaya said...

Double barrel surnames are normal in Spanish culture.
In many countries (like Spain) it is even required.
Whether they are used in anything other than official documents is a matter of the customs of the country.

Mexico is more casual about this, and IIRC it has become optional, and even fairly rare.
In the US Mexican usage is typical.

buwaya said...

I am informed that in Puerto Rico it is normal to use the double surnames.
Whatever else is wrong about AOC its not that.

buwaya said...

AOC looks very mixed to me. PR is about 60-70% caucasian overall, and based on her features alone I would put her in that average category.

Michael K said...

I don't think you actually believe that. Maybe that's unfair, but you lost alot of credibility with me when you went to 11 because Trump hadn't presto-chango built the damn wall already.

Me too. I call it virtue signaling.

rightguy said...

J Farmer : if you trying to be an irritatingly disputatious know-it-all, I say you are doing a damn fine job of it.

J. Farmer said...

@Fen:

Maybe that's unfair, but you lost alot of credibility with me when you went to 11 because Trump hadn't presto-chango built the damn wall already.

What precisely I did that you consider going "to 11," I do not know. I have never demanded nor expected for the wall to be "presto-chango" built already. I fully expected the massive opposition to the wall and skeptical from the start. I have routinely referred to my vote for Trump as a hail mary pass.

My only "credibility" is that I say what I think. I have no obligation to celebrate Trump "victories" that I consider either insignificant or no real victories at all. And I am not alone in being frustrated with the strategic choices Trump has made. Ann Coulter has compiled a useful compendium. You can read such criticisms from the immigration restriction side in sources like VDare, Taki's, and Unz. Granted, those sites host more than a few fringe cranks, but the immigration criticisms remain valid (from my perspective).

I'm not saying these things to be mean or insulting, I'm saying them because I expect you will become frustrated and feel victimized, and I want you to understand why (fair or not) you are working under a credibility problem.

Victimized? No. Frustrated? Yes. Here's the thing, Imagine that I actually have zero credibility. That I am just trying to be " to be an irritatingly disputatious know-it-all" to quote another commenter. What does that have to do with the criticisms of Trump I make? How is pointing out that aspect of my personality a response to any criticism I make?

J. Farmer said...

@rightguy:

J Farmer : if you trying to be an irritatingly disputatious know-it-all, I say you are doing a damn fine job of it.

Thank you.

J. Farmer said...

I was with you on the impatience, but your over-reaction implied you wanted to dump Trump for the lack of progress

Wanted to address this quickly. What precisely was my "over-reaction?" You cannot dump a sitting president and I've already said I will more likely than not vote for him in 2020. In short, what I would like is for Trump's base to be more Ann Coulter and less Kellyanne Conway.

Rick67 said...

Words don't just have meanings, they have uses. And how words are used is conditioned in part by the history of how they have been used in the past. The generic term "concentration camp" no longer means simply "place where people are concentrated" - it carries the weight of the Holocaust. And - as others have noted - AOC evoked that connection. Serious question = does AOC ever say "I was wrong" about anything? Does she ever get into a face to face debate with anyone (social media exchanges don't quite count)? such that someone says "you are wrong, very wrong, and this is why" and have to defend herself and her rhetoric?

In addition to gaslighting, the writers are trying very hard to rescue AOC from herself. They try so hard to explain because they are losing.

Martin said...

The correct name for these is NOT "concentration camp," even setting aside Nazi Germany and going back to their first modern use in the Second Boer War (from whence the term comes, I believe).

"Detention Center," maybe, if the person is being physically kept from leaving.

Concentration Camps always involved a government taking current, lawful residents of its area and moving them into group camps under threat of force, and not based on any misbehavior. Nothing at all to do with undocumented foreigners seeking to enter the country without permission, being housed in group quarters until their cases are adjudicated, who are free at any time to leave the country and moot their case.

Nothing at all.

Not to even get into the conditions in REAL concentration camps such as South Africa ca. 1901, let alone Dachau or Bergen-Belsen.

The US internment of Japanese in 1942 is an in-between case--they were lawful residents forcibly moved into camps (and much of their property was eventually expropriated, to compound the injustice) so the term "concentration camp" is fair. But the camps, while Spartan, were incomparably worse than what the Boers or victims of the Nazis endured.

The Left constantly plays these games with words--an unwanted compliment to a woman is now tantamount to sexual assault, and having questions about reparations makes one not merely racist but Nazi--but since the rest of us almost never call them on it, but accept it, why shouldn't they?

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