April 28, 2019

"Why are adults going to so many superhero movies? How could they possibly hold your interest? I’m genuinely mystified by this aspect of our culture."

I wrote, in last night's café. I got some answers:

1. "Do you read Homer? 'Cause, maybe it ain't Shakespeare, but it *is* Homer" (Unknown).

2. "It's a mythos of sorts, if we wanted to get all sophisticated Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey, what makes a hero — are they born or just rise to the occasion?" (narciso, with typos corrected).

3. "Ann, the reason is people are more [unintelligent] than they were in times past" (wild chicken, with rude term censored).

4. "Dreams of our youth. The military adventure, the hot girl who finally agreed to a date, the university for finding answers, hitchhiking across the country, getting into a fist fight, making money, all ended in disappointment. Why the hell does anyone go to [a movie], especially romantic movies? An escape from the disappointment with our dreams" (Limited Perspective).

5. "My best guess is that Robert Downey Junior, who riffs on the tough [sci]-fi actors of the 60s, and the other highly paid actors who portray silly superheroes, are to the 2010s what Dylan, who riffed on the tough Delta Basin singers of the 30s, was to the 1960s. When a trained actor like Downey filters an older art form, to the kids who are watching, that is ancestor worship. They don't know they are getting something that is not quite the original. They are impressed by the backstory. (Tolkien pulled this trick in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, in a different way - making you think that there was some great archetypal background to a story about a bunch of simple little Victorian hobbits running around a landscape, seeking to do good and defeat evil). I think that the superhero movies mostly sell to people in their 30s and below, which makes sense - not that they are kids, but compared to someone like Downey, who was an adult in the early 1980s, when all sorts of great actors and actresses, now long gone, were still alive --- well, they (people in their 30s) actually are kids, more or less. Hence, while 'Ironman' may be a joke to me, someone who is older than Downey, to them it is something like art. Also who does not like to eat movie theater popcorn and drink huge sodas?" (Anonymous).

6. "There is a (Super-Hero) shaped vacuum in the heart of every man which cannot be filled by any created thing, but only by God, the Creator, made known through Jesus" (Ingachuck'stoothlessARM).

7. "I’m with Althouse, I don’t understand the appeal of these superhero movies either. Wife and I just finished binge watching 'Les Miserables' on PBS app and it was wonderful, great performances by Dominic Wast and Lily Collins, and perfect sets and costumes. You would literally think you were in 1830s France. Now watching season 5 of 'Bosch' on Amazon. Nothing in theaters as good as these shows" (MountainMan).

8. "I wholeheartedly agree. 47 years ago, I devoured all the Marvel comic books (cost .20/each), learned how to read and loved them all (Silver Surfer, The Hulk, Iron Man, Captain America, et seq.) As an adult nearly 50 years later, watch these loud ass movies with teens at some multiplex? Bah" (Bay Area Guy).

9. "Some of the appeal has to be in the archetypes. Hulk is a comic representation of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, for example ... and that story is about the duality of man. Civilization vs. barbarism. Jordan Peterson has a lot to say about archetypes in storytelling, and why they resonate so strongly with us" (Pianoman).

10. "For many of us, we grew up reading about these characters, and still love them. For others it the attraction is the story, a story as old as man himself...good guys versus bad guys and the good guys win. How could they possibly hold your interest? The same way women are fascinated by Harlequin romances and Fifty Shades of Grey. Who wouldn't want to be Tony Stark...rich, witty, super-smart and attractive to women. Or Captain America? Or Thor? The women in this universe are all smart, successful and heroic too. I’m genuinely mystified by this aspect of our culture. Don't look now, but your elitism is showing. At least you didn't call it deplorable" (Gahrie).

I'll go to 11 for Ice Nine: "Jeez, Ann, duh! Big explosions, and awesome car chases and crashes, and super cool magic flying guys, and hot shit outfits, and really easy to follow plots, and...Oh, you said 'adults' didn't you. Sorry."

145 comments:

Mike Sylwester said...

I don't watch those movies, but I do watch historical dramas.

I want to recommend a historical-drama trilogy that is being shown on the Starz cable-television channel. The trilogy's three parts are:

* The White Queen

* The White Princess

* The Spanish Princess

The trilogy is about British history from 1464 to about 1515.

This trilogy is the best show I ever have watched on television.

Yesterday I wrote a blog article about the trilogy.

Sebastian said...

Nothing's better than the triumph of good over evil.

Nothing's more boring than the triumph of good over evil.

Fernandinande said...

Has he lost his mind?
Can he see or is he blind?
Can he walk at all
Or if he goes to the movies will he fall?

Is he alive or dead?
Has he [unintelligent] thoughts within his head?
We'll just pass him there
Why should we even care?

Wince said...

I went to (I think) the first of these Avenger movies because I was stuck downtown with a couple of hours to burn.

To me it was like an endless game of Superpower "Rock, Paper, Scissors" between super heroes and villains.

Maybe if I was more into these comic book characters, I'd be more interested in putting these previously unmatched superpowers to the test. Like phasers versus photon torpedoes in Star Trek. You know: decisions-decisions.

But to me the superior superpower seemed completely arbitrary and the movie interminable dross.

Sebastian said...

America is evil.

God is dead.

Ergo: superheroes.

Amadeus 48 said...

I don't get it either. Once was fun. Twice is boring.

There is one exception: the Christopher Nolan Batman trilogy was great because it was so fundamentally right-wing. The tribunal scenes in The Dark Knight Rises were right out of the French Revolution.

Christian Bale, whom I deeply admire, let the costume do the acting, but Anne Hathaway, whom I generally dislike, was fantastic as the morally ambiguous but ultimately virtuous Catwoman.

Some men just want to watch the world burn.

sinz52 said...

Today's superheroes serve the same mythical purpose as the Greek and Roman gods. Beings with amazing powers whose behavior and relationship to humans tell us something about ourselves.

In fact, some of the superheroes (Wonder Woman, Thor, etc.) are actually based on ancient mythologies.

They are also the last genre of heroes that Hollywood can draw on freely, long after Hollywood has become too cynical about America to make movies about actual historical heroes except for the astronauts.

Fernandinande said...

Jordan Peterson has a lot to say about archetypes in storytelling, and why they resonate so strongly with us

And it would make sense that the newer archetypes are more evolved and effective than those moldy old archetypes, especially with the recent additions of flying and radiation and mutations, although IIRC The Man Dressed Like A Bat needed none of those despite dressing like a flying mammal.

MadisonMan said...

It's the same reason so many watch Game of Thrones: so they have something to talk about when they meet up with a stranger.

wild chicken said...

I'm sorry for my Jeantel moment last night, but this puzzles me too. My spouse is 80 and likes nothing but fantasy sci fi and doesn't get why I watch realistic movies and read a lot of nonfiction.

He admitted last night to knowing nothing about the Pentagon Papers. How do you miss something like that? Or, am I that much of a geek?

I was a DC Comics fan myself. At 11.

Fernandinande said...

I kinda liked the cartoonish old Batman and Star Trek series, but the newer versions are just boring.

Paul said...

I think it is stupid as can be. We have heroes, real ones.

But nah, this razzle-dazzle stuff is just entertainment. They ain't heroes, just actors doing a script for lots of money.

Ice Nine said...

I would be embarrassed to have familiarity with a SuperHero movie be my introduction to a stranger.

Anonymous said...

Stupidity.

narciso said...

Well theres the narrative and there is the truth.

Ken B said...

i thought of Homer too, but these movies are far from Homer indeed. The most admirable character in Homer is the Trojan, Hector. The principals live in a world with gods but lack superpowers. Aeneid is about the cost and ambiguity of battle and living with gods, but superhero movies are about denying the cost and ambiguity. Homer is never a cartoon. It's like saying Black Panther is like Shakespeare because both have kings as characters.

MBunge said...

Adults went to "Star Wars." Adults went to "Lethal Weapon." Adults went to "Terminator II." Adults went to "Ivanhoe." Adults have always gone to see action adventure movies. Heck, one of the original franchises in Hollywood history were a string of pretty popular Tarzan flicks.

The only difference today is that the comic book action adventure movie represent a particular nerd culture that a certain kind of adult used to disdain.

Mike

wwww said...

There is a type of woman who gets snobby about entertainment. She cannot possibly lower herself to imagine that a video game or a fun movie or a comic book or science fiction books or Game of Thrones or Star Wars or Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica might be, well, fun.

I am mystified why someone who write about politics every single day of her life cannot understand that people might enjoy entertaining movies. Althouse chooses to discuss and write about politics every single day. That's great. She enjoys it; the readers enjoy it. But the majority of the world would think her mad to enjoy a unceasing discussion of tedious politics day after day after day.

Ken B said...

EDH: It's like watching rock, paper, scissors.
Perfect!

narciso said...

Well the great battles of wakanda and avengers headquarters have elements of herodotus, thor is certainly a superpowered being, scarlet witch is good circe? I guess one could make a persephone parallel with another character.

Christopher said...

I missed last night's café so I'll say it here: The best Avengers universe movies are the ones that focus on the relationships between the characters in an effective way. I'm in my 60s (English lit major, senior thesis was on Paradise Lost), and I teared up a few times during Endgame. I had planned to deliberately avoid Guardians of the Galaxy because it looked so moronic, like they were just filling up a release date while waiting for something better to happen, but watched it on Netflix one empty afternoon and *loved* it--and that tale is superdosed relationships.

That doesn't explain its success or all of its appeal, which includes some fine scriptwriting over the years and if you don't like quips you're not gonna like a lot of these movies. Anyway I can recognize that these are cartoons but still enjoy them and still see them surpassing the limits of a cartoon from time to time.

Endgame was masterful, even if I don't agree that every single minute of its 3 hours was necessary. I understand the next generation of these movies are gonna go all SJW, so bye- bye.

rhhardin said...

You can't spell superhero without rh.

wwww said...

"It's the same reason so many watch Game of Thrones: so they have something to talk about when they meet up with a stranger."

We watch Game of Thrones for fun. And it does have things to say about the human condition. Many movies do. Don't believe we've discussed Game with friends, except for a discussion about the hilarious honest trailers & the great animation in the opening sequence.

narciso said...

The thing about game of thrones its very hobbesian there are few heroes, yes I thought guardians was silly till I saw it the first time. It reminded me of the stainless steel rat.

Christopher said...

Gotta add: The rock-paper-scissors thing, can't deny it.

David Begley said...

This post is very interesting to me. Like many here, I don’t watch these superhero movies and I’m completely mystified by their popularity. I was forced to see “Guardians of the Galaxies” and thought it was ridiculous.

Hollywood’s fascination with these movies has a huge downside for me since I’m trying to sell my script, “Frankenstein, Part II.”

Being completely objective, my script is brilliant. It can win Best Picture if I can sell it.

Here’s my new longline: Frankenstein was the original supernatural monster. In Part II, however, he’s not the monster. Her husband is. A love story.

Friday night I watched the 1931 movie. Terrible! But I work in three references to it in my script.

Frau Althouse makes a cameo appearance. Along with Blackstone. I borrowed some lines from the Clintons, but I just cut my Adam Smith reference. Nine dead bodies. Three big fires. One awesome sex scene.

All of the above is true. You read it here first.

chuck said...

The alternate universe of Westerns has been replaced with the alternate universe of Super Heroes. Hey, weren't the old gun fighters super heroes of sorts? There's no way Matt Dillon survived all those gun fights without super powers.

libertariansafetyguy said...

I go for a few reason. One, I enjoyed these characters in my youth. As a kid, I was inspired by a sense of doing good by Superman, Spider-Man, and Luke Skywalker. However, more many years, movies simply could not replicate the super hero world. In a sense, Star Wars allowed for the creation of the comic book superhero movie. Then, along game Robert Downey, Jr. and Iron Man. Iron Man was kinda a B level marvel superhero who was a narcissistic, alcoholic, engineering genius who over the course of the MCU universe, finds his values and principles - and his humanity - shockingly through caring for a teenage Spider-Man. He’s contrasted by Captain America, who is good to the core but must learn to be streetwise and operate in the grey. Finally, there is Thor - the god who spends nearly 1500 years squandering his talents, and who then finally rises to the occasion and absolutely fails - and he must overcome the worst of defeats.

What makes the MCU special is the humor coupled to the humanity all in the arena fighting evil. We know these characters because they remind us of those around us. Even Thanos, the supreme villain of the MCU is relatable. He shows how a desire to do good can cause all sorts of evil.

Finally, Marvel did something with these movies (and the Netflix shows) that is amazing - they all interconnect. All the stories advance characters in the other movies. There are mountains of Easter eggs for the comic book fans.

Lastly, the movies are fun.

rehajm said...

Don’t even try the people are dumber than they used to be meme. The reason offices in Cambridge, Oak Ridge, Palo Alto, Cupertino, Redmond are full of red eyed workers Friday morning after one of these movies open.

David Begley said...

Forgot to add. Rick Dooling teaches law at Nebraska. One of his novels was made into a movie. He also did stuff with Stephen King. He told me that selling my script from Nebraska would be like climbing El Captain without ropes. Thanks!

Anonymous said...

I don't understand the over-analysis of entertainment. The movies are special-effects spectacles, often contain a good vs. evil plot line (like westerns), and are simply fun to watch. The Super Bowl is a similar spectacle - often a not a great game but you watch nonetheless because it is soooo big. Not your cup of tea? Go watch Green Book or something similar (so boring, simple-minded and preachy) and I'll watch a good action-packed "western" any day.

Lurker21 said...

I think a most of it is the action, the suspense, the explosions. If you grew up with Marvel comics, there's nostalgia, a return to the world of childhood.

If you grew up with DC comics, you may have felt some of that when Superman and Batman came to the big screen. I guess I did, but I'm not keen on seeing the whole Legion of Superheroes made into dozens of movies. There's not enough depth of character there to sustain interest.

When they do come up with a clever script and cast talented comedians like Robert Downey or Ryan Reynolds I watch, but the usual constantly wisecracking teams of indistinguishable nonentities in Spandex leave me cold.

rehajm said...

When your daily life is full of Doctoral level mathematics a simple escape once and a while fells pretty damn good.

David Begley said...

Safetyguy

My script has some humor. The ending is fab. Two lines that will go down in movie history!

Steven Wilson said...

As a general rule action adventure movies bore me. The same holds true for those based on comic books I haven't read. That being said I do liken the super heroes to the gods of both Greek and Norse mythology as they have their super powers and also their frailties in some cases. There's a need for it as is brought out by the archetypal aspect being referenced above.

I get the interest of other, particularly the young who are devoted to comic books, but I am not drawn to it at all.

FIDO said...

Megan McArdle really said it best and I use this many many times because it really does the job properly. I removed the point she was discussing (Syrian Refugees) and entered 'Super Hero Movies.

“I don’t understand how anyone can like superhero movies” This kind of statement conveys layers of meaning. The first layer is the literal meaning of the words: I lack the knowledge to figure this out. But the second, intended meaning (ed note: Cou-Althouse-gh) is the opposite: I am so vastly superior that I cannot even imagine the cognitive errors or moral turpitude that could lead someone to such obviously wrong conclusions. And yet the takeaway when I hear someone say this is a third meaning: I lack the empathy, moral imagination or analytical skills to attempt even a basic understanding of the people who disagree with me. In short, this argument says: "I'm stupid."


Earnest Prole said...

If you compare the movies of the last ten years to the movies of, say, 1945–55, or even 1970–80, you'll conclude we all used to be adults and now we're all children.

FIDO said...

I would suggest, since empathy isn't a strong point, that maybe examine why you do NOT like superhero movies instead since you seem to be a minority since even Romanians and the Chinese seem to love superhero movies.

It is not the norm that needs explaining. It is the deviation.

I am putting it a lot down to brought up pretentious and a strong dose of post modernism.

Ice Nine said...

>>Blogger wwww said...
There is a type of woman who gets snobby about entertainment. She cannot possibly lower herself to imagine that a video game or a fun movie or a comic book or science fiction books or Game of Thrones or Star Wars or Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica might be, well, fun.
I am mystified why someone who write about politics every single day of her life cannot understand that people might enjoy entertaining movies.<<

Althouse mentioned none of those things. She simply asked why one particular genre of movie was "fun" to certain people. I'm pretty sure that she can easily imagine how fun movies are fun. I'm pretty sure that she can understand that people might enjoy entertaining movies. I'm absolutely positive that you are not the ultimate arbiter of what is fun and entertaining. All of which of course renders your statements fallacious.

David Begley said...

The 1931 movie has very little of Mary Shelley’s 1818 novel. My Frankenstein is not a grunting illiterate. The script picks up exactly where Shelley’s novel ends.

Phil 314 said...

I’ve only seen a couple of the MCU movies. Last week I watched “The Avengers: Infinity Wars” with my grandson. He was clearly irritated with my constant “Now who’s is this.....”. or “Why is she.....”.

I was just fulfilling my role as the fun but definitely not with it grandfather. Everyone needs an archetype.

chuck said...

Doctoral level mathematics

One damn abstraction after another :)

I think the real question isn't why super hero movies are popular, it is why Hollywood produces so few popular movies in other genres.

Freeman Hunt said...

I agree with Ken B.

Mark said...

Well, good chuck beat me by a couple of minutes.

A big reason that they are seeing superhero movies is because all the other options in the theaters are lousy.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

mockturtle has the ultimate answer

The Elder said...

My wife loves these movies. I think it's because the heroes (Tony Stark, Thor, etc.) are so much like her husband.

wwww said...

"I'm pretty sure that she can easily imagine how fun movies are fun."

She is mystified as to how these movies could possibly attract adult viewers. In the past she's commented on Star Wars & other types of sci fi/ fantasy. When I wrote the term snobby, I was not thinking of Althouse. I was thinking of a person in particular, and a particular type of younger woman, who kind of spits on men who are interested in these genres.

Althouse may simply not understand the appeal. I don't generally categorize her as a snob. More a member of a older generation group of women who are unlikely to relate or understand the appeal of sci fi, fantasy, fantasy, video games, or the comic book genre. Likewise, I don't expect my grandmother to relate to these genres, and I don't see her as a snob.

FIDO said...

As I've said in other places: If one wants excellent writing and decent acting, T.V. has eaten Hollywood's lunch! Hollywood cannot make money on 'The Big Chill' anymore. Most comedies are by middle aged women, for middle aged women, and appeal only to gay directors and...middle aged women.


HBO stole the 'tits and sex' aspect. I have no idea how they keep finding these actresses who will strip for money since women are supposed to be so 'evolved'.

So what does Hollywood have to offer? 'Splosions and CGI. They've eschewed creativity for marketing.


Meh. I don't watch many movies, but I understand the vicarious thrill. I prefer my stakes smaller (Walter White trying to cut his way out of those handcuffs had far more drama than Thor holding open that stupid SunForge thing IMO.)


But I can understand the thrill.

Temujin said...

Completely agree with Ann. Not sure that I can pinpoint the year, but I remember when the Oscar nominations started to include a full length feature animated movie as best movie (not just in the animation category). Then the industry started marketing their full-length feature animated movies by proclaiming who did the voice overs (such as Tom Hanks for Toy Story). Voice overs???

Then the comic books started and just kept coming. At some point I went from the target audience, with Hollywood making movies for adults, to me becoming an afterthought for Hollywood who was suddenly making movies that my young relatives working for tech companies would go see.

I read comics as a kid. Loved DC and Marvel comics as a kid. Got dragged into Conan and Kull while in college, but that was short-lived for me. I love sci-fi, but comics for movies? Just never got it. (exception being Nolan's Batman movies). I don't view those as adult cinema. However, given that today's young adults tend to grow up later, if at all, I see it as a perfect fit for the target audience.

I mean, in my young pre and post-college days I was watching Midnight Cowboy, The Godfather, French Connection, A Clockwork Orange, and the like. Today we have a choice between cartoons, comics, or Seth Rogin doing the same thing in a newly titled movie.

Yancey Ward said...

I mostly find the superhero movies difficult to watch today. Visual overload just bores me, and the ignoring of actual physics issues insults me- ignoring the effects of the laws of motion, like the sudden stop from 100 mph inside an iron suit.

Here is the thing- none of the superhero movies made in the last 11 years even equal the first two Superman movies made in 1979 and 1981, or even the first Batman movie made in 1989.

But it is really the over use of CGI and the ridiculous amounts of visual action that turn me off the most, and it is why of the movies made in the last 11 years that I like the Captain America movies the best. It is also why I enjoyed the Netflix Marvel series like Jessica Jones, The Punisher, and Daredevil a lot more than the movies from the same source materials.

Yancey Ward said...

And +100 to IceNine's reply to wwww. I thought about making a similar comment last night and figured it wasn't worth the effort.

Maillard Reactionary said...

Also agree with AA and the other superhero movie skeptics. One can argue that the stories embody classic hero/villain/struggle/triumph archetypes (what were you expecting, originality?), they are still insipid and juvenile. Their popularity despite this reflects the tastes and expectations of their audience.

Well, it's their time and money, not mine. So be it.

Movies that many recognize as classics from the thirties through roughly the sixties, even comedies, had far wittier and well-constructed screenplays than much of the modern product. But it was a different audience then.

If you've actually read Homer, or Shakespeare, or Hardy, or Conrad, or Hawthorne, one sees there's less nutrition for you in these movies than there is in the tub of popcorn that they are traditionally viewed with. Real literature (I'm thinking e.g. Shakespeare and Swift here) can have its moments of vulgarity and broad humor, but there's always something more to gnaw on later.

Dave Begley said...

I read comic books as a kid and then I grew up.

Avengers did $1b plus opening weekend

Dave Begley said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MBunge said...

"Movies that many recognize as classics from the thirties through roughly the sixties, even comedies, had far wittier and well-constructed screenplays than much of the modern product."


That's largely true...except the MCU movies are often wittier and better-constructed than the "grown up" stuff made today that Althouse supposedly thinks we should all be watching instead.

Mike

jaydub said...

"Do you read Homer? 'Cause, maybe it ain't Shakespeare, but it *is* Homer"

Maybe Homer Simpson, but that's about it. So called Super heroes are an insult to the real human variety.

Comic book characters foster a romanticized vision of war and conflict, particularly of heroics in war when war is just boredom, punctuated by brief moments of terror, and war heroes are mainly ordinary people who react to those moments of terror in a fashion that seems extraordinary to those who have never been placed in the position. With 20/20 hindsight, a heroic wartime action can appear inexplicable except as a superhuman act of self sacrifice. For example, a soldier jumps on a grenade that has been tossed into his foxhole as a reaction to a moment of terror. Did he do it to save his comrades or did he do it as an unconscious reaction. I've known some genuine war heroes, but each who would discuss it confided that he continued to fight because it's what he was trained to do and had to do, and not a one of them professed to have done anything above and beyond that which he thought was the only thing he could do at the time. That does not make any of them any less of a hero, but it may explain how we find so many heroes on the battlefield. Self discipline, devotion to duty and the ability to keep one's focus on the task at hand in terrifying situations is heroic in itself and apparently more common in the US Armed Forces that one might assume. Thank God!

narciso said...

Well the monster ie really Frankenstein who desecrated the dead to create life,

tim in vermont said...

f you've actually read Homer, or Shakespeare, or Hardy, or Conrad, or Hawthorne,

Well, for one thing, Shakespeare doesn’t have dragons, and the sex scenes are only implied or recalled at a great distance. No excuse either, since dragons and sex scenes have been elements in stories since the first known story, The Epic of Gilgamesh.

But yeah, I think that thing that gets me about the superhero fans is their delusions of the quality of this stuff. Guardians of the Galaxy was funny, even to people who dont care fot the genre because the wit was genuine, the sequel was a complete yawn. I think there is a law of movie making that goes, as the number of sequels increase, the probability that the current sequel, sequel n, will be an uber woke screed with all of the life squeezed out of the original at sequel n-1 approaches 1.

Lurker21 said...

FIDO said...
Megan McArdle really said it best


Not so much. When people say they don't understand, they often have some kind of understanding and can think of possible reasons or motives for some action. They're saying that they don't feel those reasons at a gut level themselves. Those possible reasons aren't emotionally compelling to them. It's not so much that what they're commenting on is unimaginable to them, but that they can't imagine feeling or thinking it in themselves. They can guess at what others feel, but they don't share it.

Also, applying ideas of empathy to aesthetic disagreements doesn't quite work for me. Too touchy-feely maybe. You like Shakespeare or you like wrestling. Liking one and not the other doesn't necessarily blind you to the humanity in people who don't share your preference.

effinayright said...

Someone once said, " De gustibus non est disputandum."

I wonder what that means....

effinayright said...

rhhardin said...

You can't spell superhero without rh.
*********

ISWYDT.

heh

tim in vermont said...

Althouse supposedly thinks we should all be watching instead

I will take a shot at that one, I don’t understand why a grown up watches superhero movies either, but I don’t give a flying fuck what you watch. I just can’t stay awake through those I have tried, with the exception noted above of Guardians of the Galaxy.

MBunge said...

Avengers: Endgame = $350 million opening weekend in the U.S.

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/

Mike

narciso said...

Yes the next films will likely be tedious, if we have Sam Wilson and captain marvel and tchalla, dr. Strange will just be very weird.

The last raises a question, why didnt the ancient one make a bigger presence in avengera.



daskol said...

The decline in traditional religious instruction means something needs to fill our need for mythos. The superhero stories, which are a self-conscious amalgamation of myths from pre-bilbical and biblical stories, are just the thing, especially with the extraordinary production values in these our most expensively told stories. Jung nailed this one, and Peterson (perhaps via Joseph Campbell) does a good job explaining it today.

narciso said...

The Netflix series deals with the collateral damage of these battles certainly in New York, insurance for one must be very expensive as well as Potomac flooding from winter soldier.

daskol said...

Also, inside every adult is a not quite grown-up child. I enjoy them with my kids, even when I've enjoyed them more than my kids--the Avengers in particular were a bit scary to them, while they all absolutely loved Black Panther.

Dave Begley said...

If anyone wants to read my script, send me an email at daviddbegley@gmail.com. 95 pages. All sorts of people said they would read it, but very few have.

The Second Amendment shows up even though the script is set in 1795 England and Germany.

And if you want to read the novel, it is available on Amazon. Use Ann's portal. "The Daemon at the Casement or, Frankenstein, Part II" by M. Reese Kennedy. Mike was a high school friend and classmate. He majored in English at Harvard and it shows.

Ron Winkleheimer said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-wPp7HO13Q

rehajm said...

Splosions and CGI translate well into Mandarin.

Anthony said...

Blogger sinz52 said...
Today's superheroes serve the same mythical purpose as the Greek and Roman gods. Beings with amazing powers whose behavior and relationship to humans tell us something about ourselves.


That is it in a nutshell as far as the whole "superhero" thing goes. And Marvel does that very, very well, as does DC on occasion.

Plus they're romping good fun. But much deeper than that, if you bother allowing yourself get into it.

Darrell said...

Simple. They are meant to be pure escape from normal life, from the usual propaganda and indoctrination.

Don't worry. The MCU is getting "woke" and bringing in the propaganda. Like the comic books.

Christy said...

This old lady, the kind of snob who read Beowulf and The Iliad to captive nephews playing on the beach, loved Guardians of the Galaxy.

The advantage of Marvel is that they are always about relationships with some testosterone depletion on the side. Yeah, big battle scenes are not my thing but they sell tickets. (Tonight's Game of Thrones is reportedly the biggest battle scene ever filmed.)

Avengers: Civil War was the most libertarian movie ever, the epitome of The Elites subverting the true and good. The big bad in the Marvel Universe espouses what appears to me as the goals of the Democrats.

Pepper is Persephone, don't you think?

ALP said...

I am late to this party! I tried the superhero thing with Batman...then Gotham on Fox. Really tried. Never took. I find the stories too obvious - too much blatant 'good vs evil'. Predictable templates. Prefer a lesson that creeps up on you. Surprise me with an unlikely hero. Most superhero movies have special effects that overwhelm the story. Give me a thriller or scifi that keeps me guessing. Give me moral ambiguity - shades of gray.

Another Bosch fan here...I regret that I binged on the latest season too fast.

Zach said...

1. "Do you read Homer? 'Cause, maybe it ain't Shakespeare, but it *is* Homer" (Unknown).

No, it really ain't.

Homer is awash in poetic imagery and techniques like repetition, contrast, and juxtaposition. The Odyssey and the Iliad have good plots and strong characters, but the reason they've stayed around for so long is because they're fantastic poems.

Why are we comparing Marvel movies to long established classics, anyway? Their competition is contemporary blockbuster movies, and they're not even good representatives of the genre.

Jaws is a great blockbuster. Spielberg took a novel that's a pretty good beach read and wound the story of a small town into the middle of it. It uses innovative shots and has great performances. It's as good a movie as Spielberg could make.

Marvel movies use static cameras, extremely basic and functional dialogue, gather the gems plots (literally!).

I mean, Mad Max came out about halfway through Marvel's current run, and it blew people away. If the comic book movies were half as good as Mad Max, nobody would be complaining.

Dave Begley said...

"Frau Althouse

Don't pay me in politeness. How about some francs for this information?"

"Use the Althouse Amazon portal" wouldn't work.

narciso said...

Yes but it was too bleak, even more than thr original.

Big Mike said...

Why are adults going to so many superhero movies? How could they possibly hold your interest?

Shocking as it must seem, sometimes it's the only decent thing in the movie theaters.

narciso said...

Gotham was written by bruno Heller, a former NYPD detective who was the one behind the guardian series as well.

Lawrence Person said...

Maybe because half the superhero films this century have been getting America ready for a Trump Presidency:

"Billionaire vigilante has to work outside the system to protect common people. His wealth is a tool to achieve that aim, and he has no trouble flaunting it when he needs to, or to dropping a well-timed quip at the expense of his opponents."

Sound like anyone?

narciso said...

One of the few serious films being previewed was a gritty police drama 21 bridges with Chadwick boseman,

Pianoman said...

This discussions sounds so "Either/Or" to me. What's wrong with enjoying MCU movies as well as Clockwork Orange?

Embrace the healing power of And.

It's ok to love symphonies as well as Billy Joel.

narciso said...

Phillipa Gregory is interesting because she sees past the Tudor propaganda which has come down to us via shakespeare.

narciso said...

The author in Mike Sylvester's piece,

narciso said...

I noted how Whedon sides with the alliance or wolfram and heart in real life, while his sentiment is with the brown coats or the buffy gang.

Zach said...

Here's something fun for the archetypes crowd: Read a good translation of the Iliad, and try to find one.

Achilles isn't an archetype. The whole poem is about him going into a rage because he's been disrespected, and the consequences that follow. His actions are extremely responsive to his particular situation, and can't easily be generalized.

He's not even slightly a superhero. Even when he's invincible, he's not invincible in a superhero way. He's just a really, really good, pitiless fighter. He's as strong as the gods, as indifferent, and as casually cruel. The big turn in his character arc comes when King Priam sneaks into his tent and begs for him to return Hector's body. He has pity for Priam, returns the body -- and gets shot in the back when he does it. It's the opposite of a tragic arc -- he gains humanity and loses invincibility.

narciso said...

The troy film was terrible, Achilles was practically invulnerable was he not?

Zach said...

I think that people are so trained nowadays to think that anything with a plot can't be literary or artistic that we tend to mislabel the classics.

The Iliad is a poem with a great plot, but it is primarily a poem.

Troy had the plot without the poetry, and it sucked.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

But yeah, I think that thing that gets me about the superhero fans is their delusions of the quality of this stuff.

Agreed. Whatever the purported worth of the source material, these movies are horrible. The clumsy plots, the wooden dialogue, the hokey 'go team!' silliness, stupid noisy splodey crap over and over again ~ ugh. Unwatchable. Some Captain America crapola was on the TV at a restaurant yesterday and I felt like it was costing me IQ points just to be in the same room as it.

narciso said...

Alexander might as well have been written by persians it was that bad.

daskol said...

For outstanding comic book films, if you prefer your heroes more authentic than American superheroes, I recommend Zach Snyder's 300 and 300: Rise of an Empire. Those are fun, great-looking movies.

narciso said...

The first one was very faithful to herodotus account, the second one dialed up to eleven.

Seeing Red said...

Because I’m old but not dead yet.

Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans melts panties and Scarlett Johansson melts....

I want my eye candy. And muscles. Flexing. And Thor’s Hair Back!

The evolution of Tony Stark was very interesting. The Thanos story has deeper meaning. It relates to history. My idiot niece didn’t really have an issue with what he did. But they always think they’re the ones who won’t be put up against the wall. It’s like The Hunger Games.

The genius and Vision of Stan and his men....

Seeing Red said...

Besides I own DIS and have for a couple of decades. 5 points in 1 day SWEEEETTT!

narciso said...

I'm probably reaching with thanos as xerxes and the heroes as the Greeks. In avengers it took a nuke to disable the invasion forces. In the last it took another deus ex machina.

Seeing Red said...

Where does he get those wonderful toys?

effinayright said...

Seeing Red said...
Because I’m old but not dead yet.

Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans melts panties and Scarlett Johansson melts....
*************

Back when the Beatles were all the rage, it's said that after a performance in Yankee Stadium, workers had to use spatulas to scrape the worshipful girl fans out of their seats.

Teflon-coated seats put an end to that problem---yet another spin-off from the Apollo space program.

narciso said...

Thanos as kronos perhaps that's probably a reach.

William said...

Shakespeare wasn't big on special effects, but consider this: In Elizabethan times, there were Sumptuary Laws. Common people were forbidden to wear certain fabrics and styles of dress. This has two effects: the common people didn't get a chance to see many fancy clothes, and aristocrats didn't have much of a market for their used clothes. The theatre companies solved this problem in a win-win way. The aristocrats got to sell their gently used ermines and the common people got to see the fine clothes and elegant styles of their betters. It sold a lot of tickets. Not everyone could appreciate Shakespeare's intricate word play, but who doesn't enjoy a fine vestment. People went to the Globe Theater for all the wrong reasons.

chuck said...

The decline in traditional religious instruction means something needs to fill our need for mythos.

That was my take back in 1964 when writing the required 500 word essay for freshman english :)

wwww said...

"People went to the Globe Theater for all the wrong reasons."

Shakespeare was lowbrow. Lots of jokes and double entendres. There's a reason the Puritians didn't approve of theatre or Shakespeare. People could understand the rhymes of the time, just as 21st century types would struggle to understand the daily speech of the 17th century English dialects.
---
Not all movies based on comic books are of the same quality. There's a range. Shakespeare, the Illiad, and Euripides are superior to any comic book movies that come to mind. I prefer Shakespeare, the Illiad and Euripides. That said-- I am not mystified as to why some adults might enjoy a comic book movie.

tim in vermont said...

Blogger narciso said...
The troy film was terrible, Achilles was practically invulnerable was he not?


But not invulnerable. He had weaknesses, including a fatal one. That tiny weakness conspired with his weaknesses of character and the workings of the gods to do him in.

xtreg said...

Many if not all of these explanations were true back in 2000 when superhero movies were far less prevalent among the top grossing movies. I also note a high percentage of recent offerings at Netflix, while not exactly superhero movies, include a major character with some type of enhanced power that ordinary humans do not possess. I wonder, though I cannot supply much evidence, whether economic and social conditions have left people feeling unrooted and powerless. Superhero movies may make them feel better. I would love to see where these movies do well and which demographic groups are more likely buy tickets to these shows.

wwww said...

"I would love to see where these movies do well and which demographic groups are more likely buy tickets to these shows."

It's a generational difference. Age 12-45 will buy a lot more tickets for superhero movies then 50-80. The younger age groups buy more tickets for just about any type of movie or entertainment. There are some exceptions that pull from the older market. But, younger groups buy more movie tickets & more video games.

The younger gens buy more of just about everything, entertainment-wise. The one thing the younger generation does not do is watch are cable news. Cable news is exceptional in that it caters to the older demographic.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

Althouse's query may be spurred not because she doesnt get the
"Spandex-n-'Splosions" appeal of Superhero movies, but in this present day
of safe-spaces/adult coloring books/dumbing-down/infantilism, perhaps the
notion that there are zeitgeist-y machinations at work behind the genre's burgeoning popularity.
Leaving aside entertainment, archetypes, nostalgia, etc, the Pascal quote has merit

NorthOfTheOneOhOne said...

Because there's not much else out that they might want to see? Look at what's in the theaters this week. If it's not superhero it's kids movies, or horror movies, or something moralistic, or indie niche movies with a bunch of actors no one's heard of. Where's a film like Oceans Eleven that's adult and entertaining?

FIDO said...

These are the adults that the Academy has created. Look upon your works and rejoice!

fivewheels said...

It's popular fiction. Fast food. It's fine as such. DC comics in the old days were pitched to 10-year-olds. Marvel comics added a slight veneer of character complexity, and are calibrated for 15- to 17-year-olds. Today's Image comics, mostly horror and sci-fi, are geared toward the college reader.

In other words, Marvel and Image, as disposable entertainment, are generally better than, say, chick lit. What do you suppose is the recommended reading level of "The Mister"?

Tyrone Slothrop said...

I don't get the comic book thing, either. I didn't really even care much for them when I was a kid.

Neither would today's movie-going generation understand the heroes of my youth, men in infantry uniforms like Sergeant Saunders, who carried rifles and rescued Jews and French persons. I'd like to see more of that in movies.

fivewheels said...

"superhero movies are about denying the cost and ambiguity"

The main underlying theme of both the recent DC movies and Marvel's supersuccessful run is that the collateral damage caused by superhero battles makes the heroes borderline villains as well. The costs of battle, and of great power in general, are the No. 1 topic.

Dave in Tucson said...

People are going to see the MCU movies because they're (mostly) well made about characters people care about.

There's plenty of superhero movies that came and went in the last however many years you wanna name and didn't watched at all. As an example, I would like to point out that this is an actual move that really got made and released.

Ann Althouse said...

"Because there's not much else out that they might want to see?"

Yes, but what's there is a result of the market. They're putting out what will sell tickets. I don't understand why people are not bored by the same things over and over again. Even if these are well-made, expensive movies, it should be boring after a while.

I saw some of these movies years ago when I took my sons — mainly the first 3 Batman movies. I saw "Ironman" on my own, based on reviews and liking Robert Downey Jr. I saw "Batman Forever" on my own, based on reviews. I guess there are always new people who haven't seen movies like this yet.

Anyway, I'm not opposed to entertainment. I'm saying I think the supposed entertainment isn't entertaining — to me. I'm seeing so many articles this weekend about "Avengers" — articles by adults, directed at adults. This isn't just info about how you might like this movie that you're kids are going to need to see. It's adults, on their own, acting like this movie is immensely important to them. I don't get why. It sounds completely boring.

Ann Althouse said...

your kids

wwww said...

My sister dislikes sci fi, fantasy, superhero movies, all of it. She took her boys to see the 1st Avengers, and her only comment was, "it's very much a boy movie." She will never like this sort of thing. Other friends are excited to bring their kids to the current Avenger movie. Some people just do not like superhero movies & that's ok.

I've heard the 1st Avengers was a mess, and the current one is quite good. But you have to see the first to understand the 2nd. My kids are too young for any of this, so I don't see movies in the theatre.

Lurker21 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lurker21 said...

I think it's a matter of quantity drowning out quality. See one of these movies and it might be impressive, but when there are over twenty with many similarities among them, the repetition can make it hard to keep the positive things about the movie in mind. Originality counts for a lot and those who don't find it are disappointed.

Why are critics and journalists making such a big to-do about Endgame? They came up through the same blockbuster-oriented culture as the rest of us. And the same overcrowding affects other genres and arts. There are scores of little well-made dramas made every year, but they crowd each other out and don't leave much of an impression. When nothing at the high end of culture is particularly impressive, writers go where the life and action and noise are.

The overcrowding phenomenon is the same in poetry. Nobody stands out today. And if we had as many plays by Sophocles or Aeschylus as we do by Lope de Vega, we wouldn't think much of them. The similarities would get in the way of seeing the distinctiveness of each play.

traditionalguy said...

The level of applied intellect may be the answer. To see the story of real men reacting in real situations that have a possible ending is entertainment. But to see sort of strange, almost like men, men using non-existent super powers against, again non-existent, super powers in strange aliens is completely BORING.

rehajm said...

It’s part if the insult to incorporate why adults into the contemplation. I wouldn’t say these people are my tribe but that seems insulting. People equate animation with children so that maybe makes sense but that’s about it.

It’s easy:

Why do adults listen to Bob Dylan? He can’t sing a note. The whining. The lyrics- so simple and childish and boring. Why would adults invest time with that? It’s boring.

Rabel said...

Why do adults go to movies to watch Wallace Shawn babble on endlessly about his faux-sophisticated view of life? How can that possibly hold your interest?

To each his own.

My Dinner with Thor could have possibilities.

Gahrie said...

I'm betting a bunch of favorite characters are going to die tonight on Game of Thrones.

Lurker21 said...

Are over-30s really rushing to see this movie? They don't usually go to movie theaters anyway. I suspect the adults seeing the film are twentysomethings who want a date movie acceptable to both members of the couple (with some parents whose kids drag them to the multiplex).

Television personalities see how popular the film is and think that talking about it will make them cool and popular, and that word of mouth only helps the movie. The controversies Brie Larson started haven't hurt the movie, rather the reverse: all publicity is good publicity.

What's going on now has as much to do with the psychology of the "event" as it does the movie itself. You may remember all the coverage of movie blockbusters back in the Eighties, lines around the block, people camping out for tickets, etc. The media (and the public and the filmmakers) like stuff like that.

FIDO said...

"...your kids she sneered, haughtily and dismissively.


Well, perhaps Chez Althouse was, in fact, the inspiration family for 'I Heart Huckabees', but avoiding responsibility for what the Academy has wrought is pretty common these days.

Considering who and what the student body are doing, I'd try to distance myself too.

Gahrie said...

It's adults, on their own, acting like this movie is immensely important to them. I don't get why. It sounds completely boring.

It's because it is the final chapter in a story we have been following for over a decade. There are over twenty movies, and a couple of TV series. Many people have seen them all. Imagine reading the Hobbit and the first two ring books, but not the third.

Victor Landivar said...

We all have a child inside that lives on no matter how old you are. Is also simple and relaxing to watch such movies. Is uncomplicated.

Ingachuck'stoothlessARM said...

"your kids" was just a correction to her previous typo

narciso said...

I hadn't realized I had paid to see seventeen of them, I had caught the first two thor's on free cable weekends and two others on Netflix

Sam L. said...

I have no interest.

MBunge said...

"Even if these are well-made, expensive movies, it should be boring after a while."


EVERYTHING should be boring after a while. How many movies about English history include THE EXACT SAME EXECUTION SCENE? How many romantic comedies end the same way? How many serious dramas actually have their main character follow the same arc and end in the same emotional/spiritual place? How many mysteries rely on the exact same narrative formula?

Heck, are we to believe that Madame Althouse never eats the same food more than once? Never drinks the same beverage more than once? Doesn't favor a particular style of dress?

Mike

Unknown said...

As an English Lit graduate in the late 60s, I was awestruck by great literature but also enjoyed smutty popular books. We sat through so many emotionally depleting artistic movies of that time like 'They Shoot Horses don't they.' Today my son, DIL, and 4 grands and I went to see Endgame. We loved it. I have many grandchildren in several states. These movies can be shared with them. Can you imagine other current movies as multigenerational? We have looked forward to these movies, laughed in them, and today, cried. You can love opera and rock, literature and romance novels, indie films and MCU movies. I thought diversity was desirable?

narciso said...

In the 90s I recall I watched the lethal weapon and die hard, I caught some serious films like Schindler's list and the English patient.

daskol said...

Besides superhero movies, which are mostly remakes or retellings at this point, the rest of what's out there (in terms of expensively told tales) is also remakes and sequels. Part of it is that truly there are no new stories left, and we do love telling ourselves the same stories over and over again. When it comes to financing big budget (or even medium budget) films, it's easier to imagine/project revenues for a retelling of a story that we can be certain people like: pop in some new actors and contemporary references, and it's a relatively safe > $100-$500M bet. As to the film critics taking this seriously in the media, well, one hand washes the other. They're all part of the same business and it would be rude and downright uncollegial to raise aesthetic objections that might compromise box office returns even for a film connected to a competitive media empire. Also bad for your career.

Fen said...

Why are critics and journalists making such a big to-do about Endgame?

Remember the gaming scandal? Female video game developers getting good reviews because they were fucking the critics? Anyone criticizing her work product getting tagged as a sexist bigot? Or in the movie "The Big Short" when we learn the rating agency gave the banks the Triple A ratings they wanted otherwise the banks would just go to the agency's competitor? This is similar.

The critics are in bed with the industry. The owner of Rotten Tomatoes came from Disney. It's a corrupt incestuous relationship. He even removed the entire "will/won't go see" metric from his site because it made Captain Marvel look bad, deleted 40,000 customer reviews claiming they were all trolls because the "fresh" score had dropped to 36%. There were some trolls, maybe 1/3rd AT MOST, but not 40,0000. Rotten Tomatoes completely destroyed their credibility as an honest and independent site.

The movie critics admitted privately they were softballing their reviews of Captain Marvel because Disney is too powerful to offend, an honest review would be career ending. So they gave it 4-5 stars and wrote "it was great....wonderful job by Disney" reviews that were loaded in the middle with faint praise or genuine criticism. So many written reviews were of the 3 star variety, but the headlines and actual rating were 4-5 star.

So we shouldn't be surprised to see movie critics and journalists promoting End Game the way they promoted Beto as the next Bobby Kennedy. Especially now that Brie Larson has made it all about feminism. Damn, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was over 20 years ago. They sure are taking a long time getting ready for their empowerment.

wwww said...

Why are critics and journalists making such a big to-do about Endgame?
-Because Endgame looks like a good, fun movie.

Are over-30s really rushing to see this movie?
-yes.

narciso said...

Yes the captain marvel elements were forced she fulfills a similar role to Peter quill in guardian, which had a whole new arc thanks to rhodey.

narciso said...

In guardian Ronan basically tried to level zander in a similar way that thanos does to
Avengers headquarters, and quill stops him.

xtreg said...

Wwww, I should have been more clear about the nature of my interest in demographic and locational data on ticket sales. Americans with a high-school education or less have experienced declining real wages in recent decades. Worse yet, entire job categories for these workers have nearly disappeared (e.g, steelworker). (These workers are concentrated in locations outside rich coastal metro areas.) In many cases, this double whammy has left many of these workers struggling with questions of identity. I wonder whether these workers are buying tickets to superhero movies as a way to escape or to feel some semblance of control. I realize that teens buy these tickets too but I’m interested in the adults.

Another possibility is these movies make money because they travel well. The market is increasingly international and movies built around American mores may not appeal to Croatians or Chinese.

wwww said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
narciso said...

Two things that happened in the 00s that made super hero films more popular than in the 90s, the beginning of this forever war against a shadowy foe and the 2008 downturn which happened that fall. The first set the stage for the spiderman series norman Osborn is an evil arms manufacturer

tim in vermont said...

They're putting out what will sell tickets.

If that were true, they would still be making witty RomComs. Because most RomComs are based on traditional values, they have been deprecated as a genre for being retrograde and anti feminist.

tim in vermont said...

For the record, I am also completely mystified as to why grown men ride around on loud motorcycles. I know as a kid I used to put baseball cards in the spokes of my bike with a clothespin, but as a grown up?

tim in vermont said...

Maybe it’s because the older generation was taught more challenging literature. We actually read Moby DIck, Hamlet, Huckleberry Finn, etc in high school. Not the “No Fear Shakespeare” versions.

My name goes here. said...

I collected comics as a child. And now at 48, I am joyed at seeing characters that exists only in 2-D serials getting the big screen treatment. Especially when they are done right.

My name goes here. said...

Also, Die Hard was a great movie (to many people). But John McClain was supposed to be just and ordinary man, right? But in the movie he does many things that would not be possible for an ordinary man (think of how much a real persons feet would be cut up from when he ran across the glass).

Superhero movies simply say "we are not going to pretend the the good guys are mere mortals."

LCB said...

If I want to watch a movie or series about super heros, I'll rewatch Band of Brothers!

Lurker21 said...

One website is even letting people know the three points in the movie when you can "relieve yourself" without missing out on the story or the action. Enough with the hype already!