He's making fun of the Green New Deal.
"The Green New Deal. Or whatever the hell they call it." Pause. Suppressing a little smile and glancing around. "The Green New Deal. Right? The Green New Deal. I encourage it. I think it's really something that they should promote." Pause. "They should work hard on. Something our country needs desperately." Dramatic rising tone and silent fist pound on "desperately." "They have to go out and get it, but I'll take the other side of that argument, only because I'm mandated to. But they should stay with that argument. Never change." Pause, then quietly: "Never change." Long pause. "No planes. No energy. When the wind stops blowing, that's the end of your electric. Let's hurry up. Darling? Darling, is the wind blowing today? I'd like to watch television, darling."
So much sarcasm. Anyone not hearing the humor would be lost, but the crowd has no trouble absorbing every little edge of humor, and nearly every word and pause feels humorous to me. But if you like the Green New Deal, it's got to be horribly irritating, including the humor. Obviously, it's wrong to say that energy from a wind turbine flows into your house only while the wind is blowing, and you'd lose your mind if you believed that Trump doesn't realize that, but it's just as annoying if you think he knows that but he wants to get the fake science out there and he intends to hide behind a claim that it's just an exaggeration — a joke.
Here's Trump — also from yesterday's speech — trashing his antagonists for not getting his joking (or pretending not to get it):
"If you tell a joke, if you are sarcastic, if you're having fun with the audience, if you're on live television with millions of people and 25,000 people in an arena, and if you say something like 'Russia, please, if you can, get us Hillary Clinton's emails! Please, Russia, please! Please get us the emails! Please!'" The plea is exaggerated. He pauses for a long time an looks around, then starts up again, waving his hands about: "Please! Get us the emails! Please!" Pauses. Laughs. Notices the crowd is reacting with a "Lock her up" chant, which isn't quite absorbing his point, but maybe that's how they have fun, how they irritate their antagonists. He stretches out his hand to quiet them. "So everybody's having a good time, laughing, we're all having fun, and then that fake CNN and others say, 'He asked Russia to go get the emails. Horrible.' I mean, I saw it like 2 weeks ago. I'm watching, and they're talking about, 'One of the points, he asked Russia for the emails.' These people are sick. And I'm telling you, they know the game. They know the game. And they play it dirty. Dirtier than anybody's ever played the game. Dirtier than it's ever been played."
ADDED: A poll:
AND: Poll results:
Posts
359 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 359 of 359Green drivers work well enough in the wild. Event so, there is a tolerable range (i.e. too hot, too cold; too windy). Gray converters, however, are a niche solution, with diverse environmental impacts (e.g. blight factor) throughout their lifetime, and variable performance throughout their operational lifetime. They should be considered in a basket of energy production/conversion technologies as they are best suited to an application. That said, he's technically correct. Two pots of gold.
"You folks here are all to quick jump like a pack of hyenas onto on anyone with the temerity to veer from the accepted view"
The "accepted" view is that Global Warming Doom is upon us. And that Solad Hydro and Wind can replace Coal and Oil for our energy needs. So you'vw got it backwards.
And how many people have you likened to Holocaust Deniers, sweetie, because they don't believe your Climate Models can fortell the future? Don't clutch those pearls to tightly.
Besides, I don't think anyone is jumping her over her opinion - we've had this debate and already resolved that storage capacity would have to be increased eventually if solar and wind are ever going to be feasible. I think people are criticizing her because polite requests to elaborate were treated in manner many found rude and lazy.
Women don't have a science intuition. Not interesting enough to hold their attention as kids.
Mr. Wizard: Next week, Timmy, we'll learn to make battery acid.
“Offshore turbines could be replaced by sailboats turning a horizontal wheel, for aesthetics. Huge market for sailboat captains.”
Dr K? Might be a good retirement career.
Laslo: I've been called 'deplorable' by Hillary; I can handle being called 'ignorant or dishonest' by Althouse.
And no reason for anyone here to get huffy at being dissed by the hostess. She gets called worse (done it myself). It's all good.
(P.S.: There's a lesson in there for certain resident touchy solipsists...)
(P.P.S.: The rest of this L.S. comment - lol.)
Cuck: "So I am very sorry,Althouse; I will do you no favors with your devoted pro-Trump readership by saying that you have managed to capture in words some essential truths about Trump’s peculiar brand and usage of humor. My praising you will - "
But enough about this. Lets talk about me - LLR Chuck
...are there cameras somewhere? I feel like I just turned on CSPAN to a Senator taking a stand against an empty chamber.
Btw, "Green Leap Forward" from Hey Skipper.
Love it, will steal.
Chuck @3/3/19, 11:55 AM
Chuck, there IS something Shakespearean about you.
This is not the set-up for a joke or an insult.
But the Frasier episode "The Show Must Go Off" did come to mind.
And John Vernon, the actor who played Dean Wormer in "Animal House", completed a season at The Royal Shakespeare Theatre in Stratford-Upon-Avon, England in 1974, where he played Malvolio from Shakespeare's "Twelfth Night, or What You Will."
Just a train of thought.
I am Laslo.
Angle-Dyne, Samurai Buzzard said...
"And no reason for anyone here to get huffy at being dissed by the hostess. She gets called worse (done it myself). It's all good."
Indeed.
Just because you can't smell the cinnamon rolls right now doesn't mean that there isn't a Cinnabon in a mall making them somewhere.
I am Laslo.
Ann Althouse said, "Obviously, it's wrong to say that energy from a wind turbine flows into your house only while the wind is blowing, and you'd lose your mind if you believed that Trump doesn't realize that, but it's just as annoying if you think he knows that but he wants to get the fake science out there and he intends to hide behind a claim that it's just an exaggeration — a joke."
Who is telling you this? Because whoever they are, they've told you an extraordinary lie. Storing the energy produced by a wind turbine (or a solar panel) is a very difficult problem.
For those that are numerate, here's an exercise. Estimate what would an off-grid house cost that consumed energy at the same rate as standard houses today (in other words matches the electric demand curve) using only windmills and batteries?
Or here's a variant, what percentage of the population could afford to build a house like that above? (Hint: Is it 1%, 0.1%, or 0.0001% ?)
If you think that's too restrictive throw in in solar power. Estimate what would an off-grid house cost that consumed energy at the same rate as a standard houses today (in other words match the electric demand curve) using only windmills, solar panels, and batteries?
Finally I'll make a prediction. There are many courses offered at the high school and university level that cover green energy. But, and here's the prediction, you will have a difficult time finding any such course that actually honestly presents such obvious questions to its students.
(eaglebeak)
Well, I don't know about this other stuff, but out here they call the wind Mariah.
"Well, I don't know about this other stuff, but out here they call the wind Mariah."
If Mariah Carey were to break wind how much energy would the turbines produce?
Which brings to mind: hook up turbines to the farting cows.
I am Laslo.
"CPAC systematically excludes anyone who is not a Trump supporter."
Like Van Jones?
Why do wind turbines like Black Sabbath and Def Leppard?
“Obviously, it's wrong to say that energy from a wind turbine flows into your house only while the wind is blowing...”
Then there is the metaphysical problem of defining what is meant by energy fro a wind turbine flowing into your house. On the one hand, it could mean the coal plant just inside the AZ border generating electricity to make up for the energy from a CA based and funded wind turbine that powered my air conditioning here in AZ because CA couldn’t use all of the wind and solar power they generate at its peak. Or, it could just mean electrons moving around. But there, the problem is that the same electrons are not cooling your house at night that were originally pushed around by the wind turbine that afternoon. One of the reasons that we use AC to move electricity, over DC, is that you don’t have to move electrons very far. If you define things the way a physicist might (keeping in mind that they look at electricity opposite from the way that engineers do), then you can pretty much only accept that energy flowing into your house comes from your wind turbine to the extent that it is captured and collected immediately upon generation on-premises, and that on-premises collected energy then is later utilized in your house. The instant it hits the grid, it is effectively different energy that flows back into your house later that night. Just like it is different electrons (but physically the same holes all the time).
Getting back to the mega question that Chuck tried to get us to pick up. The problem with the left and Trump is that they are always trying to interpret what he says literally, when sane, intelligent, people in this country know that he is talking figuratively. So, here, Ann tried to go literally, when we all knew that he was talking figuratively, but her point fell flat when fisked by a bunch of people with better scientific and engineering background than she, or most of those complaining about Trump talking figuratively, have.
And, yes, I thought that Trump was hilarious there.
We have solar panels, more than the average family. It’s nice because what we generate exceeds our needs. However we still lose power during outages and are at risk during rolling blackouts. The warning of possible rolling blackouts always direct us not to run air conditioner or do laundry but don’t say to unplug your car.
Now this is solar not wind but my husband and I have had many discussions about putting in batteries to keep some of the power we generate. It just isn’t feasible. Too expensive, too big, pain to maintain...I can’t imagine the storage capacity needed for all of Southern California with wind. Also, they are ugly.
Delingpole lays it all out at Breitbart:
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/03/03/true-conservationists-like-trump-hate-renewable-energy/
He covers virtually all the issues discussed in this thread.
The score thus far:
Skeptics: Infinity
Warmistas: Dick
A medley of dishonest, ignorant, and, ironically, green.
"Dishonest or ignorant. Don't know which is worse."
That's easy - dishonestv is worse. Everyone is ignorant, of a great many thingz, due to no fault of their own. For exanple
But what's worse is dishonest ignorance. Like pretending something is obvious when you know you don't hwve a clue about it, then deceitfully waving to an article that doesn't say what you claim, then insulting people who didnt fall for your deceptive distraction.
.
rhhardin said...
Mr. Wizard: Next week, Timmy, we'll learn to make battery acid.
*********
Timmy's response: "Last week, you burned me."
> For those that are numerate, here's an exercise.
I went through it back in 1969, trying to figure out easy ways to store significant energy from a windmill.
JML said, "The excess energy is 'sold' back to the power company and unless it is an unusually harsh month, it covers almost all costs of the transmission fixed fees, tax and night electrical use."
The key question here is whether or not the energy is being sold for a fair price or if instead it is actually a subsidy. If it's a subsidy then how much of a subsidy?
I think many people here can guess that the cost of storing energy can greatly exceed the cost of producing it. So that if energy is being produced and 'sold' to an energy company at a time when there is no demand for it, then actually that poses a major cost to the company.
Another issue is that in many parts of the US the transmission lines are maxed out. They are close to breaking down because they are carrying far more electricity than they were ever designed for. Upgrading and expanding those transmission lines is going to be very expensive. Meanwhile, assuming the energy is actually being used and not being simply thrown away by the electric power company, every new windmill and solar panel in a region where the transmission lines are maxing out is a threat.
"I will do anything that is basically covered by the law to reduce Berkshire's tax rate," he said. "For example, on wind energy, we get a tax credit if we build a lot of wind farms. That's the only reason to build them. They don't make sense without the tax credit."
- Warren Buffett
The excess energy needs to be absorbed by the base load producers at a cost proportional to the intermittency of green drivers and gray tech performance.
"No planes. No energy. When the wind stops blowing, that's the end of your electric. Let's hurry up. Darling? Darling, is the wind blowing today? I'd like to watch television, darling."
I listened to the clip and then reconsidered his point. Right now, CA can pretend to slowly be approaching carbon neutrality in its generation and use of electricity. But, as I noted above, that is only because neighboring states are happy to take their money, essentially on the front end by taking CA’s money for their excess solar and wind generated power when overproduced, and then selling power back to CA when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing enough. Win-win for those of us in AZ and NV. Not so much for CA rate payers who pay us on both ends. This works for us because we have allowed construction of coal and gas power plants in our states that have the surge capacity required to cater to CA’s vanities. But the key point that I see Trump making is that this all goes away when the Dems get their Green New Deal fully implemented. No more coal and gas powered generators for peak loads. They would all be shut down across the country, and no more built. All we would have is what we can generate daily with (non nuclear) renewables, and can store over night. And as has been pointed out above, that technology just isn’t here, and likely won’t be for some time, if ever. Physics, again, intrudes. So, yes, for much of the country, when the sun goes down, and the wind stops blowing, many of us really won’t be able to watch TV.
Althouse is hard to pigeonhole with her true opinions.
What she is excellent at is spawning and nurturing a vibrant discussion space.
JML said, "The excess energy is 'sold' back to the power company and unless it is an unusually harsh month, it covers almost all costs of the transmission fixed fees, tax and night electrical use."
What is ignored there is that the price paid by the power companies is mandated, and, at least in much of CA, exceeds what it can be resold for to the utilities in neighboring states. Currently, it is a Ponzi scheme, with the rest of the utility company customers subsidizing those who sell their excess to the utility. But with every Ponzi company, it inevitably ends, when they run out of OPM (other peopke’s Money)
Laslo Spatula said...If only we could harness the power of Swish Swish
Tira più un pelo di figa che un carro di buoi. I'd translate but it's better to see Google translation for yourselves. Get your own link.
If we changed over half the cars in thiscountry to run on electricity there is only about 10 years worth of lithium available. Plus. While you may be able to power your house with two or three Tesla battery packs the technology doesn't scale up to anything much bigger than a house. One hour of battery storage is still nothing at all when you consider just your house uses electricity 24/7.
Now lets consider all the energy used to mine and process the lithium. Not to mention dealing with the toxicity. Wind turbines themselves are made from alum. steel and plastics. All of which began their life in the ground amnd all are subject to elaborate energy hungry processes to make them useful. For example; it takes @ 770kg of coal to make 1000kg of steel.
Obviously, it's wrong to say that energy from a wind turbine flows into your house only while the wind is blowing
Wind power does only flow into your house when the wind is blowing. Solar power does only flow into your house when the sun is shining. There is no Great Big Battery to store it in. I'm surprised you'd say something so stupid, Althouse.
“Wind power does only flow into your house when the wind is blowing. Solar power does only flow into your house when the sun is shining. There is no Great Big Battery to store it in. I'm surprised you'd say something so stupid, Althouse.”
“Many people pair their solar and wind energy with traditional power to create a hybrid system that will reduce their bills. In these cases, the energy created is stored by the utility company. If the energy you produce is greater than your consumption, 40 states actually allow you to sell your electricity back to the utility company. However, to go off the grid, you need to cut ties with the power company altogether. In this case, the energy you create is stored in a system of batteries as DC power and converted to AC power as you need it. The battery system is typically located in a garage or shed near the power source.”
https://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/living-off-the-grid1.htm
Tira più un pelo di figa che un carro di buoi.
Italian for: He pulls a hair of pussy more than an ox-cart.
"In these cases, the energy created is stored by the utility company."
Really, Inga? Where is it stored?
Althouse is hard to pigeonhole with her true opinions...
It's the teacher in her. Then the mother emerges to admonish her unruly boys and girls.
Great discussion
What we learned is, many educated people support the concept of renewable, or green energy. An open mind. All is good. Engineers also support green energy. An engineer, has not chosen that field, the field has chosen them. They are the kids asking, WHY? Mention anything that contains a number, and every single engineer within ear shot immediately sets out to prove the number wrong. Mention that a parade is 2 miles long and 1 million spectators are on the sides watching, and all those engineers will set out to figure out how many square feet each person needs and how deep on each side is needed to prove the numbers mention.
Same for electricity generation.
The Green Leap Forward crowd immediately, with dripping condescension, screech about any doubt to their plan is nothing but paid schilling by the petro giants.
The engineers, keep pestering the Green leap forward crowed with arithmetic. Engineers what green energy also. No one is against concept. Pointing out that math keeps getting in the way, does not mean you are against it.
All the math nerds want is for the Green leap forward crowd to engage at the nuts and bolts level of the debate, because until you get an equation to work, NOTHING is going to work. And insisting that work must begin today, and we'll worry about solving the equation as we go, is stupid (to an engineer) California's high speed rail is what happens when you start before you solve the equation.
Study: wind and solar can power most of the United States Wind, solar, and storage could meet 90–100% of America’s electricity needs.
Sounds like all the “experts” here are in need of some real expertise.
Everyone knows what Inga don't know.
The article Inga cites relies on the analysis of a hypothetical system which the analysts have imagined. Imagine that.
Ann Althouse gave a link to An overview of 6 energy storage methods as evidence that the energy storage problem is solved and that people that claim it's a problem are doing fake science.
Now to be fair I think this was a product of a search she did just did and if she searched more she could find a better example, but this source is remarkable in that there is no mention of cost. Economics, what it costs to store a kilowatt of electricity, is usually the main problem.
Ultracapacitors are useful in special contexts but are extremely expensive per unit of energy stored.
Batteries are useful in many contexts but are extremely expensive (not as expensive as ultracapacitors) in the context of storing large amounts of electricity, say for a house.
I do not know enough about compressed air energy storage.
I've been hearing about storing energy in flywheels for at least 25 years, and although I think it sounds like a neat idea that might have an application somewhere, this does not seem to be a breakthrough. Also I note that people aren't actually building these things, not on any large scale. That suggests either a technical breakthrough is needed, or the economics don't work.
I've long thought pumped hydroelectric storage dams are the best energy storage solution we currently have. They store energy at about one-third efficiency, in other words two-thirds of the energy stored is lost, but on the crucial metric: cost per usable unit of energy stored they have had long been the leader. They come with certain risks, think of the Orville Dam, and in order to get the costs down they probably have to be large scale projects. Also of course you can only build them in an area where there are significant elevation differences. Finally, given that this has long been the economic energy storage leader, it is striking that so few of these have been built.
I'm actually quite excited about rail energy storage. I think it's a new idea, or at least I only heard about it two months ago. But the Nevada utility energy company that is pioneering this is reporting 95% recovery of the energy stored. Also I don't know the cost numbers yet, but just looking at it, this looks like it could be inexpensive.
In these cases, the energy created is stored by the utility company.
Everything is going along as planned...then BLAM a giant pile of stupidity lands at our feet.
This is the exact level of idiocy that created AOC. People that have no idea about a topic but will debate it with a level of intensity that can only be sustained by cult members.
So here (at the risk of repeating what someone else has reported) is our anecdotal experience:
Kansas, land of wind and sun, in a rural, near suburban setting in a modern design, farmhouse style multi-story home with grid-support solar system since December. On a perfect solar day, our ground mount 36 panel array with 19 kWh Lithium Battery for storage is covering 1/3 of our needs - battery fully recharged by 10 am, pure solar til dark and just enough battery storage to get us to dawn. As our confidence increases we plan to get to about 2/3 load, excluding the dryer and HVAC (I know, I know - but hanging clothes outside in 10 degree weather is not my idea of fun. nor is filling up the basement with wet laundry). What we know now is that there are very few perfect solar days and running a system is NOT plug and play. For install cost efficiencies we duplicated the design and simultaneously installed systems with our electrical engineer neighbor. Thank goodness we have the electrical engineer for advice! Grid support means we are NOT grid-tied; we do not sell electricity back but do maintain direct power for some of our loads and can call on the grid for our "solar" loads when it's cloudy. So - solar is hip and we are reducing our payments to the electric company, and in case of long time power outage we have some coverage after our generator runs out of propane (12 days without power after an ice storm changes your thinking). We are unlikely to add wind. The complexities of a tall (and they have to be tall to get out of ground effect wind) turbine system appear to pale compared to solar and the maintenance is certainly more difficult.
That's my anecdote. Personal power plants are going to happen in the future but it requires a mindset that few "First world" Westerners still have or can even imagine.
MSB
Trump really doesn't like wind power -- this just happened on February 28: "Scottish government wins Donald Trump wind power legal costs":
Donald Trump's Aberdeenshire golf resort must pay the Scottish government's legal costs following a court battle over a major North Sea wind power development.
Mr Trump battled unsuccessfully in the courts to halt the project before he became US president.
A total of 11 turbines make up the development off Aberdeen.
Judges have now ruled Trump International Golf Club Scotland Ltd should pay the legal bills incurred.
Mr Trump had argued the development would spoil the view from his golf course at Menie.
Finally, given that this has long been the economic energy storage leader, it is striking that so few of these have been built.
Not really when you consider the enviro zealots want to tear out ones that have already been built.
The "utility company" rarely has a way to store much if any energy. And such capacity they have is already spoken for.
The hitch is that the only practical way to do so to this day is hydroelectric pump storage, which is like a hydroelectric power plant running in reverse. Spare power is used to pump water uphill, and it is released when needed by letting it flow back. It is fairly efficient and simple, much cheaper than any high-tech method, and in theory anyway it can scale very well, which is a great deal more than one can say about the alternatives to date. The real problem is that locations for this are as scarce as those for straight hydro. You have to build dams and flood valleys. Its nearly impossible to do this in the US these days.
Indeed, this is one of those points that show that the entire green energy thing is a scam, along with the hostility to nuclear power. Nukes plus pump storage for peaking is an almost ideal solution for a totally clean, utterly reliable, and completely scalable electric system. The lack of interest in deploying or expanding such well proven systems is a powerful argument against the sincerity of the "green" movement. It is all a pack of grifters.
I was in fact involved (peripherally, as a consultant with then-Arthur Andersen) with the Philippine Kalayaan pump storage plant project, in the early 80s, still in use -
http://www.cbkpower.com/project/kalayaan-pumped-storage-power-plant-kpspp/
Hey Laslo,
The link was a green engineering company talking about things that don't work now, or don't exist yet.
The objective of this company is not to make things work but to get government grants from bureaucrats who want these things to work. When you do the real engineering calculations, it never makes sense. They do research not engineering. As Bill pointed out Stephen Den Beste did the math on this years ago, we need an new Stephen Den Beste to keep hammering on these idiotic ideas.
As an MIT grad, I'm glad to see lots of people with real engineering backgrounds here - it keeps things a little honest. Ann might try using the wayback machine to peruse some of Steven's old USS Clueless postings, or visiting "Watt's Up with That", (or looking at his crowd sourced review of temperature stations), or visiting Judith Curry's "Climate Etc". Do it just to see how people with no skin in the game do the math. When an experienced engineers (who are not paid by either side) says that probably not going to work, they usually knows what they are talking about.
Come on Inga, you posted it. Where does the utility company store your power?
Part of the "tell" about the greens is that nothing cheap will do.
There have been many systems in place that were both extremely-low or no emission, such as those in California and Ontario since the 1970s-80s, and moreover fairly cheap (in terms of generation costs), but these were deemed "not green", and required massive investment, bloating the cost to the ratepayers, in allegedly greener systems.
buwaya said:
"Indeed, this is one of those points that show that the entire green energy thing is a scam, along with the hostility to nuclear power. Nukes plus pump storage for peaking is an almost ideal solution for a totally clean, utterly reliable, and completely scalable electric system. The lack of interest in deploying or expanding such well proven systems is a powerful argument against the sincerity of the "green" movement. It is all a pack of grifters."
This is probably the biggest gift in the Green New Deal: By declaring that we have only 12 years until climate Armageddon the GND folks have opened the door for nuclear power. It is the only practical way to solve their CO2 straw man crisis. If you really care about CO2 then nuclear power is the solution. On the other hand, if your goal is socialism the answer is to put us all in mud huts. CO2 is their excuse for bringing 3rd world poverty and Stalinist fascism to America.
Original Mike said... The only one here who might (and I emphasize might) actually be miffed at Althouse is John Henry
Actually, if you look at it; it's pretty clear that I was the one that she said was
A) too stupid to know how to use google
B) too stupid to know how to use an html
Which miffed me more than a little bit (enough that i then accused her of being a doped out stoner; which still seems pretty likely)
What has caused the biggest reduction in CO2 emissions in our lifetime (even more than nuclear energy (so far))???
That's right Fraccing; which led to more natural gas fired power plants replacing coal fired ones.
What is the BIGGEST villain to the Green Crowd (even Bigger than Nukes)???
That's right Fraccing. Which should tell you something about how serious they are
And now Lydia tries to convince everybody that Trump is as bad as Ted Kennedy and the people of Massachusetts on the Cape.
"In these cases, the energy created is stored by the utility company."
“Really, Inga? Where is it stored?”
The amazing thing is that she could read the entire thread and not see the problem with that statement. The short answer is that it isn’t stored. Rather it is used somewhere else, and then generated somewhere else later to cover the shortfall that results fro the intermittent nature of wind and solar generation. Actual cost effective storage would require technology that we don’t have yet.
Then, we get into the problems with this system, and why it truly is a Ponzi scheme. For awhile, CA utilities could cover the gap here with their own peak or surge power production, most typically using coal and natural gas power generation. They can be easily fired up and shut down to handle peak demand, but cost more, per MW, than base power generation facilities. But those peak or surge facilities are not green enough for CA, so are being shut down. Luckily for all concerned, there is a national power grid (or, actually three of them - east, west, and Texas). So what CA utilities now do is buy some of their excess power needs from utilities in adjoining states that don’t have the same restrictions on coal and natural gas (and probably nuclear - but that is a different story) power generation facilities. No one really cares if the Indians use some of their vast, lightly populated, reservations in adjoining states for this. The Indians sure don’t mind - they are making money on this. Not casino level lucre, but far better than what the land was used for before. Unfortunately for CA utility consumers, things have gotten to the point that their utility companies can no longer utilize the excess electrical power that they are required to buy. That power has to go somewhere (otherwise there are serious physics and engineering consequences), and that now means to the neighboring states that also produce their peak power. Unfortunately for the CA utility consumers, the price that the utility companies in the neighboring states are willing to pay for this electricity is less than the CA utilities are mandated to buy it from their own customers, who are generating it with solar and wind generation. Which essentially means that CA utilities are effectively required to pay utilities in neighboring states to take the excess off their hands. Great for me in AZ, but bad for CA residents. And, of course, when they have to buy it back when the wind isn’t blowing and the sun isn’t shining, but the AC and TVs are still running, they pay more for the electricity that the utilities in the eighboring states paid for their solar and wind power overproduction.
It is a Ponzi scheme because the people who generate enough excess wind and solar energy to sell to their utility companies are subsidized by those consumers of those utility companies who are not selling electricity to the utilities. The problem is that the price paid by these utility companies to their customers for their excess solar and wind power is mandated by the state at a level that is significantly above what it has to be sold for to the utilities in neighboring states (it has to be to entice people to invest I wind and solar). That, along with the cost of shipping in surge or peak power to compensate for no subordinate wind, is paid for by those consumers. The more this goes on, the more people buy solar panels and wind turbines, and the worse it gets wit CA electricity prices skyrocketing, while those in neighboring states remaining relatively stable. And, of course the people in CA the least able to afford to invest in solar and wind power generation are the ones ultimately facing these rocketing electricity bills.
"Dishonest or ignorant. Don't know which is worse."
"In these cases, the energy created is stored by the utility company.
Everything is going along as planned...then BLAM a giant pile of stupidity lands at our feet."
Which goes to show that dishonesty about ignorance is worse.
Democracy can cope with mere ignorance, sort of. Whether it can cope with dishonesty about ignorance, letting proggy women coerce us into doing what they want cuz they just "know" it will work, is not so clear.
So the Dems’ solution to the rapidly failing energy policy in CA is to nationalize the silliness with the Green New Deal. No more pushing excess wind and solar power to adjoining states nor importing it later in the day, because those peak plants in the neighboring states would be shut down. No relatively cheap nuclear base power either, because nuclear power generation would be shut down too. And without a lot better electrical storage than we have right now, that means that the TV (and AC) really won’t work when there is no sun or wind.
mandrewa and Bruce, I put single quotation marks around 'sold' - I do not think we receive the market price for our excess electricity, or perhaps we get near market price. I say this because I know a neighbor who has the same or similar system from the same company that was installed five years earlier and they get a lot more than we did for the excess. Or perhaps he received a larger subsidy. Regardless, I did the payoff math based on what I was going to get, not on what others got or what the market rate for electricity is. I figure a return of 7% to 9%, depending on the amount of sun in a given year. Last year, I was on the high side of 8%, and then December came and we had lots of colds and snow. (When rates go up, the ROE should be greater.) As an investment, I could do better and of course, I could do worse. Given that this is our retirement home and I looked at the cost as a retirement investment, that is a rate I can live with, unless we die before then. Then, oh well - should have spent it on a nice trip.
"The amazing thing is that she could read the entire thread and not see the problem with that statement."
I think she thinks it refutes us. Because it was on the internet. On a site called 'howstuffworks'. That's even better than The Guardian.
Ann, I am rolling around laughing about your theory that we currently have any way to store wind power in the quantity needed to replace nuclear or fossil fuels.
Trump is objectively right and you are objectively wrong, and you are not mildly wrong. You are massively, hilariously wrong. The batteries/flywheels are for short-term stabilization so that a power drop will be quickly compensated for and then the lost power is replaced by another generator source. We have no chance of building enough pumped hydro, either.
The whole reason why so much research is being put into hydrogen, even though it does imply the loss of a lot of the wind power generated is that it would help with the storage problem. Wind turbines tend to produce around 70% of their power during 30% of the time, so wind power is a terrible fit for a grid. With solar power, there's nighttime. If you have very large hydro sources, you can try to comp the wind by cutting hydro generation when there is a lot of wind. But it is incredibly expensive to build a lot of pumped hydro storage. The compressed air thing has never been really tried.
I am, btw, so extremely glad to see your photographs and posting - I take this as an indication that the eyes are doing well. That's really what I came here for today.
gilbar said...
"Actually, if you look at it; it's pretty clear that I was the one that she said was
A) too stupid to know how to use google
B) too stupid to know how to use an html"
It does look like you were the immediate target of her condescension.
Anger and rage is what powers a washing machine.
Maybe we could get AOC to sign on to nuclear if we wait until she's exiting a Marvel movie and point out that nuclear power is where gamma rays comes from.
Nothing greener than the Hulk.
@JML - my point with CA is that their utilities have been deliberately overpaying their customers for their excess power (and undercharging for it when utilized when the wind isn’t blowing or sun isn’t shining) in order to drive up the ROI of those who do buy and install solar or wind generation facilities. This wasn’t, of course, a bad economic decision by the utilities but rather a state mandate from Sacramento. Bully for you if the economic incentives worked for you. You have shown that you are a rational economic actor, the target of economic incentives provided by the federal and state governments.
For recent considerations in Washington State, Seattle had to rely on the nasty nuclear plant in Eastern WA.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.tri-cityherald.com/news/local/article226954819.html
iowan2: The Green Leap Forward crowd immediately, with dripping condescension, screech about any doubt to their plan is nothing but paid schilling by the petro giants.
The engineers, keep pestering the Green leap forward crowed with arithmetic. Engineers what green energy also. No one is against concept. Pointing out that math keeps getting in the way, does not mean you are against it.
All the math nerds want is for the Green leap forward crowd to engage at the nuts and bolts level of the debate, because until you get an equation to work, NOTHING is going to work. And insisting that work must begin today, and we'll worry about solving the equation as we go, is stupid (to an engineer) California's high speed rail is what happens when you start before you solve the equation.
Asking the GLF crowd to look and see that the math doesn't work is a bootless enterprise. Too abstract. Something more concrete is needed to make an impression on zealous thickheads. As in, up-close and personal experience with the delights of an authentic Third-World load-shed lifestyle.
I used to think this would require shipping them off for a while to live somewhere where it would get through to even the thickest skills among them that high-functioning, high-tech civilization is *not* the default state of mankind, and that you can't ignorantly fuck around with everything to fit your fantasies, and expect things to go on functioning. But, hey, good news! Looks like places like California and Australia are now willing to provide the lesson and their resident thick skulls won't need foreign vacations after all!
https://scienceofdoom.com/2015/07/30/renewable-energy-i/
Althouse demonstrates the arrogance of ignorance. The calls for nukes is the correct response to decarbonize.
Do the math
She's a lawyer, not an electrician.
Best to just let it go.
He also makes fun of the handicapped. So sure, deranging planetary conditions necessary for modern agriculture, civil infrastructure and disease/pestilence resilience are also great jokes to him. As is innovation in energy technology. But pushing an outdated dirty industry on America that's not competitive for the utilities to buy is his #1 priority. That's Trump. An absolute moron. A dangerously ridiculous moron, at that.
you need a steady, unimpeded flow of air-- another reason to get rid of cows.
They really break wind.
"Obviously, it's wrong to say that energy from a wind turbine flows into your house only while the wind is blowing . . . "
I'm buying a Tesla, and installing a small windmill-generator on top of it. It will generate electricity as I drive.
Obviously, this will be the first true perpetual-motion machine!
(Okay, sorry, now I'm just piling on.)
Between the HoaxPPT and Inga this thread is comedy gold.
They know less than nothing about this topic yet they are supremely confident in their ability to decipher headlines that make it sound like their lefty fever dreams are relevant.
Who am I to deny them their delusions?
@TICS Better watch out or Klobuchar will take after you with a comb.
I'm not hopeful about wind power,
You can project as many of your own emotions into it as you want. The economics of an industry's growth are more informative, however.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_wind_power_in_the_United_States
http://wwindea.org/information-2/information/
Between the HoaxPPT and Inga this thread is comedy gold.
They know less than nothing about this topic yet they are supremely confident...
More ad hominem messenger shooting BS from a cynical douchebag who has no answers to anything.
n.n said...Italian for: He pulls a hair of pussy more than an ox-cart.
Almost.
English translation: A pussy hair pulls more than an ox cart.
Meaning: Harnessing the power of a pony tail swish can make men do powerful things.
Which was apropos to Laslo's comment.
So much sarcasm. Anyone not hearing the humor would be lost, but the crowd has no trouble absorbing every little edge of humor, and nearly every word and pause feels humorous to me.
Because his and his cronies' anti-sustainability activism is ignorant, stupid and dangerous.
HoaxPPT: "More ad hominem messenger shooting BS from a cynical douchebag who has no answers to anything."
I love how you believe your cut and pastes are "answers" to things...
For Christ's sake, Ritmo's a Chicken Little!
Renewables are not green when you do the math. That said, solar is the future, so continuing to invest makes sense. Wind is an abortion.
Lots of Chicken Littles out there, Ritmo! And they might be right!
Just because Trump is right about wind, his anti-clean technology is disgusting
Rabel said...
She's a lawyer, not an electrician.
Best to just let it go.
3/3/19, 3:50 PM
Heh. For the entire time it's taken me to read almost 300 comments, I've been hearing the phrase "Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect" repeat again and again inside my head. But activated from the blogger rather than the reader side.
You have a really emotional opinion about the science that NOAA, NASA and the DOD are pretty confident of, Tom-Tom. Did your hatred of NASA science start with you disbelief over their Apollo moon landings or with the first tinfoil hat you decided to make for yourself as a young boy during the Red Scares?
The relative growth of wind power both in the US and abroad is a completely disconnected discussion from the actual science/engineering behind wind power (and solar for that matter).
This is because the biggest drivers for growth in wind and solar are governments who, despite the uneconomical deployment of these systems relative to fossil fuels (and that includes waste studies as well), make a political choice to subsidize and reward the use of these alternative energy options.
And here's where it gets ironic: Which entities are profiting the most from these govt subsidies for wind and solar sources?
Primarily large investment firms who seek to gain tax advantages and offsets for their other, actual profitable, investments.
You wanna know who one of the largest alternative energy source portfolio holders happens to be? Goldman Sachs.
Politically smart.
Financially smart due to the govt tax breaks.
So, what we have here are the "average" taxpayers paying taxes that help subsidize the investment and tax strategies and outcomes of the biggest financial players in the world.
But hey, I'm sure there's a wiki article out there that will make Inga and HoaxPPT feel better about their position.
LOL
That sure beats the hell out of HoaxPPT blaming midwest corporate farms for human feces on SF sidewalks! So things are looking up!
I love how you believe your cut and pastes are "answers" to things...
And I love how you think that you get to make up your own data from thin air.
Ah, the trend of Althouse saying something retarded, getting corrected on it by her technological and scientific betters, then lashing out in her schoolmarm routine then running away. Usually its with her feminist nonsense, but her scientific illiteracy was the cause today. I think she misses having power over those poor law students who were dependent on never calling her out on her bullshit in order to get a passing grade.
And then Inga comes in with some even more retarded nonsense and links to articles she doesn't understand, just marvelous. If we want your expertise, you old cow, we will ask about the finer points of changing bedpans or attempting disability fraud for fake back injuries.
Howard: "Just because Trump is right about wind, his anti-clean technology is disgusting"
LOL
How many times did you fly to East Coast from CA again?
I'm glad to see lots of people with real engineering backgrounds here
Me, too. That's why this has been great thread. Now, we are over 200 comments and the trolls show up.
Speaking of science, Ritmo, what are your prospects for promotion?
I don't know as much about McDs are you do, but once you get the number of pickles on a Big Mac down, aren't you eligible to attend Hamburger University?
Have you fully mastered the grease pit?
I'm rooting for you. I'm all for the American Dream.
[McDs] founder Ray Kroc once said, “If we are going to go anywhere, we’ve got to have talent. And, I’m going to put my money in talent.” Hamburger University continues to promote that philosophy, everyday.
The relative growth of wind power both in the US and abroad is a completely disconnected discussion from the actual science/engineering behind wind power (and solar for that matter).
This is because the biggest drivers for growth in wind and solar are governments who, despite the uneconomical deployment of these systems relative to fossil fuels (and that includes waste studies as well), make a political choice to subsidize and reward the use of these alternative energy options.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
This is your learned, studied opinion as an exponent of the fake president who proposed FORCING utilities to buy the very uneconomical and dirty, declining coal resource just because its lobbyists and workers are one of his crucial constituencies.
Go on. Now your anti-science is so strong that you can't only disagree with NOAA, NASA, the IPC and DOD, but Popular Mechanics as well.
This pro-science conspiracy against your and Trump's anti-sustainability activism seems to be very broad and far-reaching, indeed.
Lunacy.
Twice so far this year. However I got more pollution credits than Jesus
HoaxPPT is having a meltdown because he can't reconcile how govt's choosing to reward alternative sources of energy via tax and credit policies alters how the market behaves in terms of growth of certain sectors.
HoaxPPT actually thinks these govt policies alters the science/engineering/economics of wind and solar energy generation, storage and integration into existing energy grids.
The good news is that HoaxPPT is probably only 50% of the way into whatever "chemical journey" he's on today so we'll have lots more nonsense to review over the next few hours.
@Michael
The basic points were completely laid out in the first 10 comments.
It's been all repetition since then.
Speaking of science, Ritmo, what are your prospects for promotion?
Angry old white and and hold-out against the great white genocide/suicide/die-off (depending on how you want to look at it) proposes speaking of science, and then warps that sentence into another irrational, unscientific, ad hominem rant.
If you want to talk science, why don't you start by figuring out how to keep all your white male tribesmen from killing themselves with Oxy-Contin, Tom-Tom.
Oh, that's right. It would entail taking on the great white male big pharma CEOs, which would obviously be a communist thing to do. Carry on with the Die-Off, then!
Coal is an abomination to the atmosphere. Unfortunately lack of electricity is worse. Trump calling for less scrubbing is despicable.
Clean coal mandates are more important than wind
Before you go into full rant mode, Ritmo...
Which are you today? The SJW who loathes homophobia? Or the most bitterly homophobic bigot in the U.S.?
Here in Southern Nevada we have lots of sunshine, plenty of empty desert, and a big hydroelectric dam with plenty of generating capacity. All we need is the water. Got some?
HoaxPPT: "This is your learned, studied opinion as an exponent of the fake president who proposed FORCING utilities to buy the very uneconomical and dirty, declining coal resource just because its lobbyists and workers are one of his crucial constituencies."
LOL
OMG! Trump "proposed" something, and that "something" apparently affected everything that has happened over the previous 40 years!!!
OMG! How did Trump do this?
Keep going big guy. You're doing great!
HoaxPPT is having a meltdown because he can't reconcile how govt's choosing to reward alternative sources of energy via tax and credit policies alters how the market behaves in terms of growth of certain sectors.
HoaxPPT actually thinks these govt policies alters the science/engineering/economics of wind and solar energy generation, storage and integration into existing energy grids.
The good news is that HoaxPPT is probably only 50% of the way into whatever "chemical journey" he's on today so we'll have lots more nonsense to review over the next few hours.
Since RNC shill can't actually read the arguments against him, it's best just to quote the increasing numbers of sources he denies:
"It’s no secret that coal plants in the U.S. are struggling. Even in the heart of coal country, coal plants are being replaced with cheaper natural gas and renewable plants. In many parts of the country, it’s now cheaper to tear down a coal plant and build a new natural gas or renewable plant in its place than to continue burning coal.
All of this presents a bit of a quandary for the Trump Administration, which has made saving coal jobs one of the cornerstones of its policy. A memo obtained by Bloomberg reveals a potential plan to try and save coal power in the U.S. by forcing utility companies to buy electricity from coal plants where available.
Bloomberg obtained an internal Energy Department memo that proposes the Department exercise emergency authority to mandate grid operators purchase electricity from at-risk coal and nuclear plants. In addition, the memo calls for a ‘Strategic Electric Generation Reserve’ that will ensure the country’s electricity supply in the event of a terrorist attack or natural disaster.
The memo justifies this action by noting that some types of power generation, such as natural gas, rely on fuel sources that aren’t stored on-site, making them vulnerable to attacks or disasters. The memo sites the need for the American electricity grid to be “resilient and secure” by relying more on generators like coal plants that can maintain large fuel stockpiles nearby.
However, creating an electricity grid that depends on outdated and harmful fuel sources could do more long-term harm than good, especially as the world seeks to replace fossil fuels with cleaner, renewable energy sources. A memo could argue for an expansion of renewable sources coupled with battery storage and similar technologies to a functionally equivalent end."
The source was posted above. Of course, RNC shill didn't refer to it. It might have led to more facts being admitted into RNC shill's very frenzied and conspiracy-leaden head.
Which are you today? The SJW who loathes homophobia? Or the most bitterly homophobic bigot in the U.S.?
I don't know what you're talking about, old white nightclub performer. But it sounds like you want as many white males to overdose on Oxy-Contin as they can. What an awesome legacy you leave!
There was an internal proposal!
There was a memo!!
Nothing came of it....but its still the cause of everything that has happened over the last 40 years!!!
We are literally back at the HoaxPPT claiming lightbulbs force human to poop on SF sidewalks.
LOL
This topic is the best.
Clean coal mandates are more important than wind.
Which requires technology more fanciful than renewables, conservation or battery innovation.
And doesn't explain why Trump told the coal plant operators that he'd lift the limits on their mercury emissions, even above their objections.
Keep buying the Trump Kool-Aid.
There was an internal proposal!
There was a memo!!
Nothing came of it....
Thank goodness. And of course. Because Trump's ideas are too stupid and his cabinet too distrustful of his senile old ass to keep every bird-brained, authoritarian proposal of his to keep from leaking out as sloppily as Shouting Thomas' prostate.
No worries.
"Earth's Atmosphere Is Bigger Than We Thought - It
Actually Goes Past The Moon. The geocorona,
scientists have found, extends out to as much as
630,000 kilometres. Space telescopes within the
geocorona will likely need to adjust their Lyman-alpha
baselines for deep-space observations.
SF seems to be a factor.
Every time Ritmo really goes berserk in grand rhetorical fashion, I'm reminded of R. Crumb's manic ranting cartoons.
I am Whiteman!
Back from Crumb's days as the grandee of hippie SF.
oops, my bad, I thought topic was climate change/end of world.
PPT: China coal burning won't stop soon. Cleaning it up with existing advanced scrubbing and ESP will yield the greatest environmental benefits for the least cost
Back in the day, in SF, we had plenty of End of the World cults.
Ritmo would have been right at home!
LOL -Inga your Guardian link isn't proof of anything. There isn't a drop of science or reality in there. Mixing in the words "Experts say!" is exactly proof of nothing. eh - The desperate google search by Inga.
Cleaning it up with existing advanced scrubbing and ESP will yield the greatest environmental benefits for the least cost.
Even if you did this decreasing emissions is feasible, economical, and crucial to sustainability and current innovation trends. Trump can't make coal economical even if he tried and he knows this. Even gas is more sustainable/less emitting.
Funny how socialistic these Trumpsters have become in forcing their outdated industry on America. Well, authoritarian is more like it. But definitely not capitalistic.
Howard: "PPT: China coal burning won't stop soon."
Try "ever".
And that's because they were exempted...by the lefties in their agreements.
India too.
And they will never agree to your "costly" scrubbers. And, quite frankly, where is any lefty govt that will challenge the Chinese on this? That lefty govt does not exist, nor will it ever.
Funny how socialistic these Trumpsters have become in forcing their outdated industry on America. Well, authoritarian is more like it. But definitely not capitalistic.
That one made me laugh, Ritmo.
Love it when you just pull the craziest, most verbose and rhetorically twisted shit out of your ass.
What can I do to get you blowing hot air at maximum volume and heat?
How many hours will you devote to this tonight?
Back in the day, in SF, we had plenty of End of the World cults.
Ritmo would have been right at home!
Defender of the Great White Male Oxy-Contin Die-Off now says NASA, NOAA, DOD and IPC are just an end of the world cult.
Of course, like any typical undereducated white male he can't explain how to delink the relationship between atmosphere and climate but since when did any basic scientific ignorance ever keep him from spouting and mouthing off his stupidity ever before? He's loud and he's proud! Proud of how awesome his stupidity makes him! He can take on the planet, singlehandedly! Re-write the physical laws of nature through the sheer force of his own testosterone supply!
HoaxPPT: "Thank goodness"
LOL
So the key driver you identified for why an economic sector was behaving in a certain way.......doesn't actually exist.
Well, at least you are consistent.
We'll put this latest Thing-That-Doesn't-Exist gaffe on your part next to your HoaxPPT.
Hey Tom-Tom. How's that leaky prostate of yours doing? Still making you incontinent?
Why don't you try going to war against your own prostate and dtysfunctioning bowels before you take on NASA, NOA, DOD and the IPC in this grand effort of yours to re-write the physical laws of nature?
Howard: "PPT: China coal burning won't stop soon."
............................
Which is why we need to nuke all their mines. The sooner, the better.To save the planet.
He's loud and he's proud! Proud of how awesome his stupidity makes him! He can take on the planet, singlehandedly! Re-write the physical laws of nature through the sheer force of his own testosterone supply!
Watch out! Ritmo's about to blow!
How many hours will you devote to this tonight?
As many as you can, old swollen prostate man.
But at least when the lights go out and I get up for work tomorrow, I still make a shit-ton more than you do.
How's your mooching off of social security coming along? You're a walking poster child not only for socialism, but the way it saves a guy with low lifetime earning potential like you from a retirement of poverty.
Yep. Trump knows tons about China. LOL!
But at least when the lights go out and I get up for work tomorrow, I still make a shit-ton more than you do.
I'm nicely retired and money is no longer an issue in my life.
I'm enjoying my mooching.
Please get up a little earlier tomorrow and work harder. I'm buying one of those 12.9" iPad Pros.
I'm nicely retired and money is no longer an issue in my life.
Translation: Thanks to the government cheese social security checks.
I'm enjoying my mooching.
Speaks for itself. Republican thinking, everybody - courtesy of Swollen Prostate Shouting Thomas.
Trump is a mooch, too. $200,000 annually from daddy Fred Trump starting at age 3. Yep, that's a normal, hard-working American's typical "allowance." Lol!
Hey, what happened to that blog of yours, Tom-Tom? You know. The one where you talked about shitting yourself all over in your car.
Question for the audience: Which do you think is more swollen? Tom-Tom's ego or his prostate?
Tom Tom's government cheese bills couldn't cover the cost of his blog. He sold it to an advertiser clearinghouse.
Question for the audience: Which do you think is more swollen? Tom-Tom's ego or his prostate?
That's pretty good.
You were losing volume and intensity for a few comments there.
You're sure there is an audience? At this moment, across the universe of the web, I'd guess several million comments are being squirreled away in some little niche.
Do you think I should sauté or steam my broccoli tonight, Ritmo?
@S.T.
Ya know, it's ok to tease the little fella a little, but sometimes you cross the line into bullying.
More than once I have witnessed you lead little cocoa bean by the nose to the edge of insanity.
Imagine how you would feel if you were the cause of his hysteria making him late for work and having to explain to "the man" why he was so upset.
Cut him some slack today. You are taking advantage of a handicapped person. Just like Trump.
Do you think I should sauté or steam my broccoli tonight, Ritmo?
Beats me. I'm sure you're as mediocre a cook as you are a macrame artist.
But for what it's worth, sautéing is a stupid way to cook broccoli, silly old white man. Unless it's rabe. That stuff works better for leafier things, if you're going to do it.
You're sure there is an audience?
Doesn't matter. Unlike you, I'm capable of commenting without regard for uneducated audience approval.
“Here in Southern Nevada we have lots of sunshine, plenty of empty desert, and a big hydroelectric dam with plenty of generating capacity. All we need is the water. Got some?”
Was (kinda - because of the slick new bypass) over a big dam of yours yesterday on the way back from Vegas. We both got stuck there around 9/11/01. She turned around and went back to her cousin’s house, who asked “what”? Both of us ended backtracking through Laughland (she used to dance with the guy the town was named after, and that cousin’s mother lives there). We ended up staying at a place on Paradise by Flamingo, that is cat friendly. She calls it “whoresville”, from when she used to live in Vegas > 30 years ago. Cleaned up some. Trying to be family friendly, but offering good weekly rates that close to the expensive part of the strip doesn’t really help cleaning it up. Still, had great takeout from Morton’s a block away.
But the big reason for my comment here is to remind you not to ignore Nuclear. You have Yucca Mountain right around there in S NV for any nuclear waste you might want to dispose of, and I think that it is being opened back up, now that Harry Reid is gone from office.
Solar is also pretty dirty to manufacture.
A problem hinted at in one comment, is the us can go all green and destroy our economy, but not have much of an impact due to pollution from other countries, such as China.
Coal in the us is getting our competed due to natural gas. It’s lower cost. Coal is being exported, since our coal seems to produce less pollution than other places.
Nuclear nothing much seems to be happening. Thorium sounds promising, as does pebble reactors, but where’s the new construction? Instead we have nuke plants closing, expected in California.
Transmission lines do have losses. Anytime you convert power, there is a loss.
What would make the most sense is lots of funding for solar research, and not purchasing yet. and when it finally reaches a good cost point, then buy. Solar cost per watt keeps on falling every year.
It would also be nice to have solar hot water heaters in sunny areas, but the cheapness of natural gas stopped that.
New homes in Ca need to be solar ready, just adding to the construction cost.
There is lots of urban space for solar, warehouse rooftops, it’s just not economical to use yet.
Wind power and migrating birds don’t mix. And no way to count the devastating impact, some law makes it hard to do.
Lots of green power schemes seem a bit, umm, corrupt. They favor those well connected politically.
Inga...Allie Oop said...
Study: wind and solar can power most of the United States Wind, solar, and storage could meet 90–100% of America’s electricity needs.
Sounds like all the “experts” here are in need of some real expertise.
***************
Proabably making the rubble bounce by now, but:
C'mon, Inga point us to the areas where massive amounts of energy are stored, the nature of the technology used to store the energy, the means by which the energy is stored and released, the technology that monitors loads and adjusts the sotring and shedding....
You know....the facts.
Face it: you got nuthin'.
tcrosse wrote: Here in Southern Nevada we have lots of sunshine, plenty of empty desert, and a big hydroelectric dam with plenty of generating capacity. All we need is the water. Got some?
This has been a great year for California snowpack, thanks to AGW; I think the CO snowpack is not too shabby either which is good news for you guys. Again, thanks AGW!!
Thank you, Bruce. I agree. My small scale system works well in this scheme. CA is an entirely different story. NM also sells power to CA. I’m happy to do my part for their shortfall.
One of the best places to store higher energy electrons is to put them back onto carbon atoms. Take a cue from Nature.
Lots of green power schemes seem a bit, umm, corrupt. They favor those well connected politically.
Carbon indulgences are bought and sold by Gaia church elders.
The authors modified their study to allow up to 12 hours of US energy storage.
Note, dear Inga, the authors modified their STUDY, not the authors applied an existing technology that allowed ....
In other words they ASSUMED a technology to allow for 12 hours of stored energy per day before the study results were, "I TOLD you it would work".
AOC has one possibly valid point. If we fully implemented her plan world wide we might only have 12 years left until mass starvation, disease and war essentially ended civilization as we know it.
"You have a really emotional opinion about the science that NOAA, NASA and the DOD are pretty confident of, Tom-Tom. Did your hatred of NASA science start with you disbelief over their Apollo moon landings or with the first tinfoil hat you decided to make for yourself as a young boy during the Red Scares?"
Ha. You can't keep up with tbe math on this thread so you make emotional playground taunts projecting your own emotionalism. So many layers of delicious irony.
Makes me laugh until I remember you'll need to be put down.
Carbon indulgences are bought and sold by Gaia church elders.
Little Chicken-boy outs himself as an anti-sustainability activist.
I'm waiting for the day when he comes around to admitting his belief that the concept of earth as a planet is a hoax.
Ha. You can't keep up with tbe math on this thread so you make emotional playground taunts projecting your own emotionalism. So many layers of delicious irony.
Makes me laugh until I remember you'll need to be put down.
Since I don't speak underemployed cannon-fodder gibberish, I'm not sure what this means.
But I do hope his murder fantasies and inability to get a job doing any science taste as good to him as what he misperceives as irony.
Why should a guy whose only talent in life is killing people worry about spreading tropical disease northward, making more climate migrants, ruining infrastructure, and fucking up agricultural needs? The answer is, you shouldn't. Since you're pro-death, these are good things to you.
The earth is actually not a planet. It is a business enterprise. A corporate entity.
Republicans are trying really hard to get 70% of Americans to embrace this misunderstanding they have.
I am going to come to Inga's defense.
When the homeowner with the solar plant buys and sells power with tje utility, the utility is acting AS IF it were storing energy.
It is not actually "storing" anything, of course. But to the homeowner it is no different from a huge battery. Except cheaper.
If the homeowner is "net metering" as required in a number of states, they are cheating their neighbors out of the cost of "storage". Everyone but the homeowner pays for it.
Net metering, generally, means tjat the utility has to buy the wonky, intermittent solar power at the same price the homeowner pays for the reliable, clean, dispatchable, utility power.
John Henry
"Dishonest or ignorant. Don't know which is worse."
Self reflection is always a good thing.
"Since I don't speak underemployed cannon-fodder gibberish, I'm not sure what this means."
Awwww. The little marxist who engenders hatred is unclear about how pendulums work. That's cute.
To date, there is no more efficient source of energy than a lump of coal.
Hydrogen fuel cells used to be a thing. I recall Obama ended all government subsidized research, and gave huge grants to windmills, batteries, and solar panels in his 2009 Porkulus.
Top brass at Sylondra and alike are forever grateful.
We have found evidence of the Great Filter in the Martian ruins. Roughly translated:
42) Solve Crisis X using only Socialism.
The rest of the paper is blank
Whenever I hear or see "renewable energy" discussed, it seems to be only about solar and wind.
Sometimes nuclear but many don't think of nuclear as "renewable" since it does consume fuel.
Other than that, I suspect that most people could not name another renewable energy source if you held a candle under their toes.
There are a number of other technologies, many of them better, from an energy standpoint, than wind/solar.
Here's a few:
Geothermal-Iceland gets some very large proportion of their energy this way.
ethanol-from corn, bagasse and other plants
algae
trees/wood
landfill gas
OTEC (Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion)
Tides
Small hydro
Anerobic digestion of cowshit (close to the power from cow farts some have mocked in this thread) Also works with pigshit, horseshit, chickenshit and bullshit. I don't know why it would not work with human shit but have never seen it discussed.
Anerobic digestion of food waste (Kraft, in the 80's, built a 25MW powerplant that ran on the whey generated by their cheese plant in Corona CA. The waste heat from the engine also generated all the steam needed for cheese mfg)
These are all proven technologies, they all work fairly well. Lots of problems with them. Tidal power will only work in a few specific locations. Ethanol is an expensive replacement for oil. We could go down the list and object to all of them.
None of them, outside of specific applications, are as effective as oil/gas/coal/nuclear. Most don't scale real well.
But they are all much better than solar/wind.
One huge reason they are better is because they are all, more or less, despatchable. That means they generate power when needed, not just when the sun decides to shine or the wind decides to blow.
Thinking on this today, I wonder if that dispatchability is not viewed as a bug, not a feature by the warmists? After all, there are huge amounts of money to be made playing with batteries and these other technologies. Look at Tesla, for example. Or Solyndra or the other companies that went bankrupt with hundreds of million$ of govt money.
Landfill gas can be tapped with materials basically available at HoDe and an off the shelf Cat genny. Where's the money in that?
And if the goal is, as in Cambodia, to drive mankind back to a kinder gentler age of around 1300, destroying the power generation system is perhaps the best way to do it.
John Henry
Awwww. The little marxist who engenders hatred is unclear about how pendulums work. That's cute.
Awwww. The little murder fantasist who talks about "putting others down" is unclear about what hatred is. That's cute.
Does this mean TIC won't be writing love letters to Royal ass Inga?
> but those who oppose it by pretending it only works when the wind blows are completely dishonest.
>Dishonest or ignorant. Don't know which is worse
I'll go with ignorant for Ann.
UW has one of the best electrical engineering depts in the world.
Any 2nd year student had "Power" class, covering AC, motors, 3 phase, power factor...
Hey Ann Althouse MSEE, what is the difference between a battery and a capacitor? When your power factor is too low, what do you do?
Any system is analyzed with conservation of energy: no matter if the system has "batteries" in it or not.
energy in == wind, energy out == aluminum smelter + losses - resistance, heat, capacitance and inductance, transformer coil losses...
You can't run an aluminum smelter on batteries.
If "batteries" were efficient you would charge them from the utility at low cost hours and discharge them during peaks. Why don't they do that? Want to look up "power factor"?
Trump understands the first law of thermo,
he explained it by saying "TV" instead of "aluminum smelter" or "10,000 people watching TV with AC on".
Trump is funny an correct. Ann is neither of those things.
"Honey, I want to watch TV, will you shovel some more buffalo poop in to the bioreactor?"
Remember when we were gonna run the country on
corn alcohol
and
biofuels
because we were running out gas due to Peak Oil
and those were renewable?
how did that work out?
This is the kind of people arguing for "alternative energy" for any reason on than its cheaper.
Anyone who disagrees is either dishonest or ignorant.
Unknown @ 1:12 AM
Thanks. I've been telling people that for years.
It is the reason alum. smelters are all situated near big power sources. Hydo or nukes.
Somebody want to tell us how many barrels of oil it takes to make a kayak?
"Obviously, it's wrong to say that energy from a wind turbine flows into your house only while the wind is blowing"
"It's obvious that energy from a wind turbine flows into your house only while the wind is blowing"
There. FIFY.
Now I'll read the other 300 comments telling you storage is NON-EXISTENT on the current grid(s). Only Point-of-use storage is currently practical and it requires a Tesla Wall or other site-specific huge battery. Again, these won't work when it is too hot or too cold.
This might be a useful post on a site where trolls are rare.
Almost every day, there are assertions that new solar is cheaper than its fossil-fuel equivalents. This may be true in some areas if you ignore the need to match supply and demand on an instantaneous basis. But if the fossil-fuel plants are there to handle only those periods when wind, solar, and limited battery storage aren’t sufficient to meet demand, then the total energy production against which their capital cost is charged will be much lower, and hence, the cost per unit will go up. (See the California Duck Must Die for a nice visual portrayal of how widespread solar adoption has changed the load curve for the other sources.)
It might be difficult for math challenged.
Ritmo: "The little murder fantasist who talks about 'putting others down' is unclear about what hatred is"
Oh it's not hatred, mere self-defense. Cold and impersonal, just like you thought the harbinger of your brave new world would always be.
It's just that we are going to have to kill off every last marxist. Eventually, the others will come to the realization.
And if you check my initial post, you can see that I was actually sad about losing you. You have been nothing but entertaining, and I really mean that. So, sorry not sorry.
We need nukes for power. All climate changers should be getting on board for more nukes.
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