President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, after initially announcing his personal interest in the case (“I am chasing”) has been more circumspect. This suggests that the Turkish leader is more carefully evaluating the leverage he now has over Saudi Arabia. It may be in his power to direct the finger of blame toward Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman or to help deflect the spotlight from him.How can it be asserted flatly that "the leaks serve nobody’s constructive purpose"? It's impossible to detect an interest that could be served? I find that highly implausible. Apparently, there is "much speculation" about the motivation behind the links, so what are the speculators talking about if "the leaks serve nobody’s constructive purpose"?
But while the Turkish president is being uncharacteristically careful with his words, there seems to have been little or no effort to stanch the leaks. The leaks, and the motivation behind them, have become subject of much speculation....
But the leaks serve nobody’s constructive purpose. They undermine the credibility of the investigation, and of Turkey’s impartiality....
Or is "constructive" like the "true" in "no true Scotsman"? In other words, all that speculation is about who may be pursuing a destructive purpose.
Posts
227 comments:
1 – 200 of 227 Newer› Newest»He needed killing.
The end.
A constructive purpose and a destructive purpose is often the same purpose, is it not?
At least Bloomberg is honest enough to call the article an opinion column.
Erdogan is the Sultan. And the Sultan does what he wishes.
Obviously, he needs a hat. He's working on it.
Information dripping from a leaking turkey. Yucko.
There is much that doesn't make sense.
A story this morning casually mentioned that Kashoggi knew he was marked for death by the Saudi royal family(?!) In which case, why did he go into the Saudi embassy, which is officially Saudi territory? What's the media's angle? Why do they care so much when they care so little about other journalists, even American journalists?
Let Europe clutch its pearls over this shit.
Darrell:
He needed killing.
The end.
Why?
confusing drip of information and misinformation
Deja vu.
A constructive purpose and a destructive purpose is often the same purpose
Case in point: black hole and white hole, ice and fire, where each purpose is qualified with a differing perspective.
"He needed killing.
The end."
Notwithstanding that the U.S. apparently did not think so, given that he was freely living here...you're okay with murder and dismemberment?
I think our media is mostly collectively inept. Depending on the media for accurate info is like depending on lucy to hold the football.
Add to that the lies streaming out of the mis-information from hostile states, it's not hard to fathom that this is mess and nobody knows what is going on.
This whole thing is an operation by Turkey to cut off US aid to the Saudis.
Turkey is an ally of Iran's even though they are Sunni.
I find that highly implausible.
As the old saying goes, politics is the art of the implausible.
Another site mentioned the Crown Prince that is basically the target of this smear campaign is now in charge of cleaning up the Intelligence Service.
Did I say Smear? I meant concern for a "Journalist", ignoring the top level past collaboration / positions with the Royal Family and met OBL that he was part of the Brotherhood.
My comment to my parents was a pox on all involved parties. Not a very nice area of the world. I wish Saudi Oil was not so important for the world economy. Until then, we have to place nice. It's a choice between the least worst solution. Saudi is a bit better than Turkey and/or Iran to help the US.
@Michael K:
This whole thing is an operation by Turkey to cut off US aid to the Saudis.
Turkey is an ally of Iran's even though they are Sunni.
If the "whole thing is an operation by Turkey," why would the Saudis admit culpability?
My guess is a lot of the Turkey position has to do with:
1. Syria (a mess Turkey wants to get out of, without adding more refugees).
2. Trying to cut down Saudi Arabia a bit
3. Hurting the US Saudi Alliance.
4. Increase Turkey's perceived power.
5. Distract attention from their own issues, and treatment of journalists and the opposition.
Ray - SoCal:
It's a choice between the least worst solution. Saudi is a bit better than Turkey and/or Iran to help the US.
That is a false choice. We can have normal diplomatic and commercial relations with Saudi Arabia without being enmeshed with them. The two Obama-era policies that Trump has chosen to double down on--arms sales and supporting the war on Yemen--have nothing to do with insuring the global oil supply. And the Saudis do not sell oil because we are nice to them. They sell oil because it is in their self-interest to do so.
First, Turkey, now, Saudi Arabia internal divisions. There were Palestinians, Egyptians, Libyans, Syrians, too. Persistence of the Arab Spring or catastrophic anthropogenic climate change among the many nations?
If the media cannot blame Trump, their curiosity ends. Their journalism dies.
It's very clear that the leaks serve the purpose of undermining the US relationship with Saudi Arabia -- which just happens to be one of Turkey's rivals in the region. It's also very clear that Erdogan doesn't want to have his finger prints on the knife sticking out of his rival's back. Sure, the Saudis know he's the one who leaked this to the press and the US government knows it, but he doesn't want the PUBLIC to know it.
The problem for Erdogan is that he's done far worse than what the Saudis are currently accused of and both we and the Saudis know it. (Recall how Turkish security goons beat up anti-Erdogan protesters on US soil! Imagine what he does elsewhere! So, Erdogan does not have clean hands. He's just hoping the Saudis do not have the same kind of evidence of his 'deeds' that can be released just when he needs favorable US public opinion. Or, he may believe he'll never be in need of such opinion again.
Trump should pull all the Saudi student visas as punishment for Khashoggi’s murder.
The blowback from Big U for doing that would be amusing.
>Why would the Saudis admit culpability?
Trying to cut their losses.
The Saudi's did not expect this blow back. And having seen Russia get away with killings in the UK by lying through their teeth, they did not see this coming. Their miscalculation was in under estimating the power of the Rhodes Echo Chamber, Trump Derangement Syndrome in the press, the positive press image/power of the Muslim Brotherhood,and how hard Turkey is pushing this. What amazes me, is this is a bigger story than Daniel Pearl - a real reporter!
And the question is what faction inside KSA pushed this operation, and which will be blamed for it? I find it very interesting the crown prince is now in charge of restructuring the intelligence operation due to this Snafu.
Khashoggi when to Indiana State on a student visa back in the early 80s (after Larry Bird).
> They sell oil because it is in their self-interest to do so.
True - but how much do they need to sell?
Saudis can also de-dollarize sale of oils, and basically make it so the US Dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency.
It's better to keep the Saudi's working with the US against US enemies (Iran - country of Death to America chants), than against us.
It's not a very nice neighborhood. The example on another site was we allied with the USSR in WW2? The reason was Germany was even worse than the USSR, so the US took the least worst option.
@Ray SoCal:
What amazes me, is this is a bigger story than Daniel Pearl - a real reporter!
Well, one significant difference is that Al Qaeda was an enemy of the United States, and we were fighting a war against them. That's a bit of a different dynamic than the relationship we have with Saudi Arabia, which receives almost unquestioned US military and diplomatic support.
Blogger Ray - SoCal said...
My guess is a lot of the Turkey position has to do with:
1. Syria (a mess Turkey wants to get out of, without adding more refugees).
2. Trying to cut down Saudi Arabia a bit
3. Hurting the US Saudi Alliance.
4. Increase Turkey's perceived power.
5. Distract attention from their own issues, and treatment of journalists and the opposition.
I agree with this and this is what I meant by "an operation."
@Ray - SoCal:
Saudis can also de-dollarize sale of oils, and basically make it so the US Dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency.
Such an attempt by the Saudis would cause massive blowback. Their last attempt to weaponize oil in the early 1970s failed. Also, your argument amounts to submitting to a form of blackmail. It is essentially saying we have to do whatever the Saudis want otherwise they may retaliate against us.
It's better to keep the Saudi's working with the US against US enemies (Iran - country of Death to America chants), than against us.
Iran does not pose any significant threat to US national security. And Saudi Arabia is working "against US enemies." They have empowered, recruited, and support radical Sunni jihadists like the As Nusra Front in Syria and Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula in Yemen. They have also attempted diplomatic sabotage of Qatar, which houses the largest US military installation in the middle east, and against Canada, a close and important ally of the United States. What does any of this have to with American national security interests?
No one in the entire MSM is pointing out how well done this is as an anti-Saudi effort.
It's not just a "drip drip". It's a made-for-media "drip drip" of unverified details, anonymous sources, and grisly descriptions - all with the authority of leaks coming out of a government. So that at all times it's top news.
It really doesn't matter exactly how he died - he was lured, trapped, possibly interrogated, and killed in a grisly manner in retribution for past actions. On "Saudi Soil". Saudi Arabia does public beheadings all the time, so this is not exactly out of character for them.
This is all about Turkey making the most of it. And the media going a long with it and taking angles against those who it always takes angles against.
For Bloomberg to talk about the integrity of the investigation and Turkey's impartiality is beyond ludicrous.
Otherwise what Michael K. said, except that Erdogan has no wish to get out of Syria - quite the contrary, and that is a problem for his current associations with Iran and Russia.
Reading these comments, it is clear that Trump/JaVanka has not released the talking points, so you are going to the previous versions to show your loyalty.
> But the leaks serve nobody’s constructive purpose. They undermine the credibility of the investigation, and of Turkey’s impartiality....
Nooo... You mean this won't bring down Trump? That nobody cares?
"associations" --> temporary alliance of convenience.
Erdogan is very anti SA. SA handed this incident to him on a silver plater and he is running with it. My opinion is that he hopes to drive a wedge between US and SA and make sure the Crown Prince does not become King. The CP is certainly no friend of Turkey. High level politics is very dirty.
Why is the press up in arms?
1. Khashoggi was part of the nomenklatura. He wrote for the WaPo, his uncle gave parties.
2 Trump is President.
There was little fuss when Yemenis were being killed and Obama was bowing to Saudi royalty.
Release the talking points - oh great orange head.
Sorry Howard - the Rachel Maddow talking point machine is the real deal.
Will we even know why a journalist was hacked into bits at the Saudi consulate?
What do you think, Rachel Maddow?
&
It was a news cycle within a news cycle. On Thursday, a Turkish official told ABC News that U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, on his recent visit to Istanbul, heard a recording of the Saudi Arabian journalist Jamal Khashoggi being murdered in the Saudi consulate. The State Department denied the report. Pompeo, asked about it during a trip to Mexico City, was emphatic: “I’ve heard no tape. I’ve seen no transcript.”
There's always a "tape". Maybe Omorosa knows.?
Known facts: Endrogan is a crazy totalitarian Islamic supremacist.
Other Facts: He is not alone.
>Iran does not pose any significant threat to US national security.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Iran has been at war with the US since 1979.
Unfortunately, for most of the time the US was not aware of this.
The question is what is significant?
Support for Al Queda?
IED's for anti US forces in Iraq and Iran?
Kolbar tower bombing?
We are still paying for Jimmy Carter's bad Iranian Decisions.
TreeJoe
Interesting.
Now there is a well renowned turkish criminologist who says this scenario was possible,
Now as the exiled reporter Abdullah bozert has pointed out Erdogan has purged many crime experts, from the govt.
As to the latter point:
https://mobile.twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/1054393458096553984
As to the former:
https://mobile.twitter.com/EmreUslu
The fellow the Turks are trotting out doesn't look anything like khashoggi
As mentioned above, all that matters is how it can be used against Trump
@Ray - SoCal:
The US has attempted an isolation, containment, regime change posture towards Iran for nearly 40 years, and it has been a complete failure. The US would have far greater leverage and influence in Iran if it abandoned regime change and resumed diplomatic and commercial relations with the country. Isolating regimes to force changes in their behavior has a lousy track record and often provides a convenient scapegoat for authoritarian regimes, who will use the isolation as a scapegoat against their own failures, corruption, and incompetence.
The Middle East is not a world of good guys versus bad guys. It's a world of regional power players jockeying for influence. Since none really has the capacity to dominate, they are locked in a balance of power struggle. The goal of the US should be to balance those rivals against each other, not get involved in one side or the other.
As I have said, Russia, China, and even South Korea (to choose an American ally) have diplomatic and commercial relations with all of the major powers in the region. There is no reason we cannot have the same, and that should be our goal.
If there was blood how did they clean it in a short interval
@Limited blogger:
As mentioned above, all that matters is how it can be used against Trump
Who cares? I seriously do not get the obsession with this question. It has been known for years now that the Establishment media is against Trump, and partisans that wish to amplify their respective echo chambers will tune into media that will tell them what they already want to hear.
The salient question is what should the US relationship with Saudi Arabia be? And as much as there are people opposing it simply because it is Trump's policy, there are people supporting it for exactly the same reason. And of course both sides conveniently ignore how much continuity there has been in the US-Saudi relationship regardless of the occupier of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
Caring that we have a hack press is normal. The harm they do is beyond measure.
A Farmer
The salient question is what should the US relationship with Saudi Arabia be?
Why don't you tell us.
Well take Omar sultan who is pushing the divestment campaign who is he, a Hamas and Awlaki supporter out of an Ohio mosque.
I mentioned before the leading figures that Salman arrested almost all were members of the golden chain financial network.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Why don't you tell us
I have said it repeatedly, and I said it long before the Khashoggi case. We should maintain normal diplomatic and commerical relations with Saudi Arabia, but we should not have a special relationship with them, and we should adopt a more neutral stance with regard to regional rivalries and power plays. One of the dangers of having a special relationship with a country, is that country's national security interests become entangled with American national security interests, which results in placing a client state's interests ahead and above those of America.
"special relationship" - is that an offical designation?? or a media BS buzzword?
There was neutrality when the kingdom and pahlavi regime were neighbors we even allowed the latter some access to nuclear technology, Paul erdman in 1975 suggested that was foolish thinking.
J. Farmer said...
Who cares? I seriously do not get the obsession with this question. It has been known for years now that the Establishment media is against Trump, and partisans that wish to amplify their respective echo chambers will tune into media that will tell them what they already want to hear.
You don't want to deal with this because you are on the same side as the people trying to destabilize the middle east and destroy Israel.
Nobody gives two shits about Khasshogi. He was not a journalist in any sense of the word. He is a Muslim Brotherhood agent pushing propaganda at most and the Wapo is all about propaganda.
He who would throw Farmer off a building if he got a chance.
Fuck Khasshogi and fuck the people who are trying to pretend he was a decent human being. Nobody should shed a tear for him.
Saudi Arabia made peace with Israel. Saudi Arabia is trying to modernize and bring the entire middle east to modern times.
The enemies of this movement are Iran, Turkey, and the globalists.
You are squarely allied with evil if you are trying to undermine what is going on in Saudi Arabia right now and this whole event is and open effort to keep the Muslims and Jews fighting until Israel is destroyed.
J. Farmer said...
I have said it repeatedly, and I said it long before the Khashoggi case. We should maintain normal diplomatic and commerical relations with Saudi Arabia, but we should not have a special relationship with them, and we should adopt a more neutral stance with regard to regional rivalries and power plays. One of the dangers of having a special relationship with a country, is that country's national security interests become entangled with American national security interests, which results in placing a client state's interests ahead and above those of America.
Saudi Arabia has made peace with Israel.
We should support that.
It is in our interest.
Again, it's stating the obvious but the Media are not interested in any real reporting unless they can use it to frame Trump in a bad light.
Some noted examples:
The caravan of Hondurans crossing 2000 miles of Mexico by foot.
James Woods asks:
So consider this: it is over 2,000 miles from Tegucigalpa, Honduras to Phoenix, Arizona. Hard to believe a bunch of people just randomly decided to pack a lunch and walk TWO THOUSAND MILES to anywhere. Where is this mob sleeping, using bathrooms, procuring food and water?
Good question.
Media? not interested.
Media reply: Trump (America) gives money to Honduras so this is all Trump's fault.
No mention of past American regimes or past policies regarding Honduras.
The other day democrat J Castro, blamed Jared Kushner for the Saudi Journalist's death. On CNN. CNN is a great platform for radical propaganda to start.
Achilles:
You don't want to deal with this because you are on the same side as the people trying to destabilize the middle east and destroy Israel.
Whenever I think you cannot possibly be more strident and cliche, you never fail to prove me wrong.
Nobody gives two shits about Khasshogi. He was not a journalist in any sense of the word. He is a Muslim Brotherhood agent pushing propaganda at most and the Wapo is all about propaganda.
And as I have said repeatedly, the arguments for reforming the US-Saudi relationship predate and are independent of the Khashoggi affair.
He who would throw Farmer off a building if he got a chance.
As usual, you do not know what you are talking about.
Saudi Arabia made peace with Israel. Saudi Arabia is trying to modernize and bring the entire middle east to modern times.
Even if that were true (which is highly doubtful), Saudi Arabia has no ability to "bring the entire middle east to modern times." Saudi Arabia is an Islamist society, and the royal family derives its legitimacy solely from its role as the custodian of the two mosques. And even if MBS has mouthed the right slogans to western audiences, he has proven totally incompetent. The Aramco IPO is dead in the water, and MBS has presided over massive capital flight from the country.
You are squarely allied with evil if you are trying to undermine what is going on in Saudi Arabia right now and this whole event is and open effort to keep the Muslims and Jews fighting until Israel is destroyed.
Saudi Arabia and Israel have been cooperating for years. That is nothing new. Saudi Arabia and Israel do not even have official diplomatic relations as of right now. And none of this relies on US support.
@Achilles:
Saudi Arabia has made peace with Israel.
We should support that.
It is in our interest.
What does "made peace" even mean in this context? When did the war between Saudi Arabia start and when did this "peace" end it?
Obviously the US should support any countries that maintain peaceful relations with each other. That does not require the US to support foolish and idiotic policies like recruiting, funding, and arming radical jihadist groups in Syria and Yemen. Israel has good and increasingly close relationships with Russia, but that does not prevent the Russians from having normal commercial and diplomatic relations with Iran and Saudi Arabia.
This is all about Turkey making the most of it. And the media going a long with it and taking angles against those who it always takes angles against.
Of course, and the anti-Trump media and pro-Iran Farmer are carrying on in that manner.
When they split funding for Fatah with the Soviets when their zakat network began Hamas,
Nobody plays with Smug.
Everybody ignores.
Perhaps Michael K would oblige.
And Achilles too.
Why has so much information (of unknown provenance and purpose) put out by the Turks about this incident been swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the US and western media and the leftish part of the political spectrum? How many of these lurid stories spouting from Turkish sources have turned out to be true? How many have been supported by evidence that goes beyond tall tales and scare stories? How many babies have been removed from incubators?*
The truthful answer is we don't know what happened to Khashoggi or why. Everyone out there (the Turks, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Iranians, the Israelis, the GOP; the Dems) is spinning this story like crazy. My own view is that is an unimportant event being blown way out of proportion. No one currently acting like his or her hair is on fire cared at all about Obama incinerating dubious characters and innocent bystanders using hellfire missiles and drones. They don't really care about this.
Just wait until we get Crying Babies at the Border! This will drop off the front page.
*classical reference
Leaks - misinformation campaign.
The left know it well.
Aparism 'Bobby'ghosh the insurgents best friend in Iraq for time magazine, no wonder he was practicing category error.
He did the same for the Taliban in Afghanistan,
@Michael K:
Of course, and the anti-Trump media and pro-Iran Farmer are carrying on in that manner.
So, Michael, do you support severing commercial and diplomatic relations with China? No? My god, you must be pro-CPC!
Crying Babies at the Border
That is the so-called "November Surprise", which calls into question immigration reform in lieu of emigration reform, and the special and peculiar interests that advocate for the former with collateral damage.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Leaks - misinformation campaign.
Except the early reports that Khashoggi was murdered by Saudis inside the consulate termed out to be true. Unless you believe the Kingdom is admitting that for some other reason.
OT: When the cameras are not rolling, the Hondurans are getting a ride.
Except the early reports that Khashoggi was murdered by Saudis inside the consulate termed (sic) out to be true."
Yeah, but all the stuff about Jamal being tortured, being cut up alive, being carried out in small pieces, remains (1) of unknown provenance, (2) is unverified, and (3) comes straight out of a lurid version of 1001 Arabian Nights. It may turn out to be true, but it probably won't. I think I knew that the Saudis have had a brutal, almost medieval regime. The Turks since Erdogan discovered his inner sultan have moved resolutely backwards from integration into Europe. How about that failed coup (or was it a successful purge)? Nothing makes a sultan's day like throwing a few dissident scribblers into the clink.
The chief if the OP, the Saudi version of Peter dinklage didn't seem to have the sharpest crew, was this their first rendition maybe it was too many chiefs and indians
@Amadeus 48:
It may turn out to be true, but it probably won't.
The precise details will probably never be known, but some basic questions still remain. Why, for example, did a cleaning crew armed with mops, buckets, and bottles of bleach arrive hours before the search of a consulate? IF Khashoggi died in the manner they described, what happened to the body?
Perhaps then again remember between ergonokon #1 and #2, Erdogan put half the country in jail because of the grey wolf menace, thanks to Gulen, then he went after the other half.
Rand Paul: Saudi Claims About Khashoggi Murder Are "Insulting" To The "Civilized World"
Islam and power do not mix. It's a corrupting factor.
I'm working professionally and personally to preserve a Christian presence in the Middle East. It's a real struggle and I'm pessimistic about the outcome. I want to preserve Middle Eastern Judaism too -- I'm what you might call a Catholic Zionist -- but I'm not worried about them. Israel stands on firm ground, barring a nuclear holocaust. But Christianity is on the knife's edge of total eradication. Christian communities are steadily being ground into a powder. They will soon be gone if the present trajectory isn't changed, and I am not hopeful that change will occur. The Muslims want to get rid of the Christians. Even the "nicest" Muslims want to get rid of them. All that matters to me is saving or trying to save Middle Eastern Christianity. What Muslims do to each other is of no concern to me.
The weirdest story from Turkey is the Kashoggi "body double." The Saudi operative who was flown into Istanbul from Riyadh to stick a fake beard onto himself and walk out the back door of the Saudi embassy wearing Kashoggi's clothes not too long after Kashoggi walked in. Apparently he walked to the Blue Mosque, met an accomplice, and switched into his real clothes. The accomplice then dumped Kashoggi's clothes into a dumpster.
What is that story all about? What was the point? What was the meaning?
If the clothes got dumped into a dumpster in full view of surveillance cameras, why don't we have the clothes right now?
So, they have a body, circumstantial evidence, a plausible motive, a list of suspects, and, hopefully, an impartial investigation.
"The Muslims want to get rid of the Christians. "
So do the leftists.
There will always be questions.
The Saudis can be thugs. So can the Turks. So can the Iranians. So can anyone, including the Israelis, the Americans, the Brits, and the French. Who really cares about this, other than the Khashoggi family? This is a cynical attempt to change the subject and upset international arrangements, including alliances of convenience. The US, the Israelis, and the Saudis want the Iranians back in their cage. The Iranians and the Turks want to assert leverage against the Saudis and Israel. The Qataris want to clip the Saudis wings. Qatar hosts one of the largest US bases in the Middle East. The Turks are in NATO. It's a big mess, but it has been since WWI.
Adnan Khashoggi, Jamal's uncle, was a famous Saudi arms dealer. We were in a lift house in the Gemmi Pass in Switzerland in the 1980s, and there was a poster advertising the local cheese with an endorsement from Adnan Khashoggi--and a photo of the great man with a wheel of the cheese. My wife has always regretted that we didn't get a picture of the poster.
Robert Spencer
As recently as August 28, 2018, Khashoggi wrote in the Post:
"The United States’s aversion to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is more apparent in the current Trump administration, is the root of a predicament across the entire Arab world. The eradication of the Muslim Brotherhood is nothing less than an abolition of democracy and a guarantee that Arabs will continue living under authoritarian and corrupt regimes. "
While positing the Muslim Brotherhood as the standard-bearer of democracy in the Arab world, Khashoggi did not deny that its aspiration is to impose Sharia wherever it can. He wrote: “There can be no political reform and democracy in any Arab country without accepting that political Islam is a part of it.” And he warned: “It is wrong to dwell on political Islam, conservatism and identity issues when the choice is between having a free society tolerant of all viewpoints and having an oppressive regime.”
Would Muslim Brotherhood rule really result in a “free society tolerant of all viewpoints”? During the Egyptian presidential campaign of 2012, the Muslim Brotherhood Freedom and Justice Party candidate Mohamed Morsi (who was elected) declared:
"The Qur’an is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader, jihad is our path and death in the name of Allah is our goal …
Today we can establish Sharia law because our nation will acquire well-being only with Islam and Sharia. The Muslim Brothers and the Freedom and Justice Party will be the conductors of these goals."
“Jihad is our path.” As I show in great detail in my book The History of Jihad From Muhammad to ISIS, throughout 1,400 years of Islamic history, Muslims pursuing jihad as their path have been the cause of unfathomable levels of misery and suffering for non-Muslims whose sole crime was to believe in the wrong religion. Hardly a sound basis for a “free society tolerant of all viewpoints.”
Sharia law, once established, allows for the beating of disobedient women (Qur’an 4:34), the devaluation of women’s testimony (Qur’an 2:282), the devaluation of women’s inheritance rights (Qur’an 4:3), the taking of sex slaves (Qur’an 4:3, 4:24, 23:1-6, 33:50, and 70:30), the death penalty for leaving Islam (Qur’an 4:89), and much more that hardly provides for a “free society tolerant of all viewpoints.”
more from Spencer:
In 2014, Khashoggi wrote happily that Hamas leaders Khaled Meshaal and Ismail Haniyeh “have revived the Palestinian issue.” He complained about “Israel’s occupation” and about “an Israeli war against the Palestinians that has not stopped for a single day since 1948.”
Why would the Washington Post hire a pro-jihad, pro-Sharia, pro-Hamas advocate for political Islam?
The answer is clear: the Post hired Jamal Khashoggi because his views coincided with those of the paper’s editorial board. The American Left today holds positions on Israel, Hamas, and political Islam that are essentially indistinguishable from those of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Now that Khashoggi has been killed, one option for the Post as it looks to fill the vacancy among its columnists would be to appeal to the Egyptian government to free Mohamed Morsi and allow him to emigrate to the United States. He can take Khashoggi’s place in sagely advising American foreign policy experts that their best course is to support the Muslim Brotherhood and other warriors for jihad.
n.n.
So, they have a body, circumstantial evidence, a plausible motive, a list of suspects, and, hopefully, an impartial investigation.
What would an "impartial investigation" into MBS' role look like? And how would it even be possible?
You tell us J Farmer. You're the expert.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Regarding Spencer, I think he is quite histrionic on this issue. The simplest way to protect America from what he fears is to stop immigration into the country. How Arab societies want to arrange themselves is their own business. China is not a "free society tolerant of all viewpoints," and yet we send them billions of dollars in trade revenue every year. Does anyone think this should stop or that we should sever diplomatic relations with China until they are a "free society tolerant of all viewpoints?" The Afghan government that will helped create and who US soldiers are still fighting and dying to protect, is an Islamist government. The Iraqi government, that we spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to bring in existence, is Islamist. The Saudi regime is Islamist. The Egyptians, when given the chance to express self-determination, chose an Islamist government.
Sooo, is it acceptable to say that I don't really like Turkey or Saudi Arabia? As in, no love for either country? Sure, Turkey is a NATO ally and uses a lot of our equipment (including some F-16s that are upgraded higher than most of our own). Sure Saudi Arabia is an important oil trading partner (and a powerful part of the second/third world oil cabal, OPEC), regional "ally" and uses a lot of our equipment (including some F-16s and F-15s upgraded higher than most of our own). But both countries allow and encourage the spread of radical Islam to some extent, and while SA looks to have been moderating recently, at least publicly, they're still backwards AF. Turkey - meh. I still don't think we know what the real story behind that failed "coup" he "survived". Was that 2016? I can't recall.
I hope we find out what happened to the journalist. As in, really find out. And then I hope we enact some kind of punishment upon the guilty party. My money is on both countries being in on it. Because sometimes the world is kind of horrible.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
You tell us J Farmer. You're the expert.
I am not an expert nor have I ever claimed to be. I have an opinion, and I am prepared to defend my opinion. That's all. The fact that I have a different opinion than others seems to be a cause of a lot of sturm und drang.
and I found a pro Islamic state tweet as recently as july 2014, only targeting Syrian soldiers, there's a particularly sunni descriptor for allawites and the like, now Ignatius, who probably hired him, was pushing for the non Kurdish Syrian rebels, as recently as the spring of 2013, the ones that included ahram al shams, who was headed by al suri's deputy, and other outfits, headed by ex gitmo detainees,
al suri, was a moslem brotherhood leader in spain in the 80s, when he participated in the attack on the el Descanso restaurant at torrejon air base, it took nearly 30 years,
@Michael K:
Of course, and the anti-Trump media and pro-Iran Farmer are carrying on in that manner.
So, Michael, do you support severing commercial and diplomatic relations with China? No? My god, you must be pro-CPC!
When did China say they were at war with us I must have missed it.
NO "Death to America" chants when my daughter was here. Or maybe she missed them.
al suri, who followed a similar strategy at al atocha train station and London, was just the sort that young Robert baer sought to recruit against assad in the 80s,
so the details, they expect us to believe that the skype communication was not encrypted, where is the video inside the consulate, if it were deactivated, they would say so,
A better post on the Khashoggi matter.
In any case, Khashoggi’s writings about the Brotherhood aren’t terribly complex. They are well summarized in a column he wrote for the Washington Post called “The U.S. is wrong about the Muslim Brotherhood and the Middle East is suffering for it.” Khashoggi argued that America’s aversion to the Brotherhood is “the root of a predicament across the entire Arab world” because it stands in the way of democratization.
The Obama administration and Hillary Clinton with her MB member "assistant" were determined to support the Muslim Brotherhood and I don't know why.
now, there are some similarities with a mark Greaney tale from a few years ago, the hero mark Greaney was a special operator till he was burned for unclear reasons, he has discovered this was the decision of the head of the ops division who did so to cover up a inconvenient association with the dc general intelligence base chief who was part of the same op, the latter is burning the trail, which includes using a plain clothed set of operatives, who try to do him what hydra tried in winter soldier,
"But the leaks serve nobody’s constructive purpose."
"Constructive" is doing some work here. Clearly, Erdogan thinks the leaks are helping his interest. Erdogan's interest being to weaken ties between the USA and the Saudi Kingdom.
and yet we send them billions of dollars in trade revenue every year."
= we buy their stuff more that they buy our stuff.
Perhaps we should stop selling arms to the Saudis.
mccullough said...
Trump should pull all the Saudi student visas as punishment for Khashoggi’s murder.
I really like this idea. All nations of the world seek to educate their very best at US Universities. Refusing the next four years would be a real slap in the face of the Saudi's, as other Middle east nations, keep receiving degrees from the US, They can buy the best of everything, but not if we don't sell.
Farmer
China isn't on par with Islamic nations when it comes to killing non-Islamic peoples.
What would an "impartial investigation" into MBS' role look like? And how would it even be possible?
I don't know. It's more of a wish list, than anything. We start with a presumption of innocence, then allow the bullhorns to negotiate a consensus agreeable to the majority.
@Michael K:
When did China say they were at war with us I must have missed it.
NO "Death to America" chants when my daughter was here. Or maybe she missed them.
Well, China did fight on the side of the North Koreans, and that war is still technically ongoing. But I digress. No, I do not believe that the US and China are at war.
And the US is not at war with Iran. The "marg bar..." phrase had its origin in the Persian Constitutional Revolution and has been used repeatedly to refer to forces both within and outside of Iran. "Death to Russia" has also been in a political slogan, and yet there is no war between Iran and Russia. Both Khamenei and Rouhani have denied a desire for literal death to Americans. More than a thousand Americans travel to Iran per year on tourist visas.
Islamic governance is a crock. They certainly have not proven that they can manage. Yeah sure our interventions are not working - that's a separate issue.
As far as Afghanistan - the radical Islamists and Taliban wave kill women and children and destroy their schools. and? Lets talk about China.
Great Powerline link Michael K. thanks.
But more significantly further the interests of ikwan both in turkey and Qatar, and those who have fallen out of favor with some elements of the regime, like the ones who staged that incident this spring,
We can't trust anything Erdogan says or that Turkey presents as factual without rock solid corroboration.
@Michael K:
The Obama administration and Hillary Clinton with her MB member "assistant" were determined to support the Muslim Brotherhood and I don't know why.
"President Obama spoke with Egyptian President Abdelfattah al-Sisi today regarding the U.S.-Egyptian military assistance relationship and regional developments, including in Libya and Yemen. President Obama informed President al-Sisi that he will lift executive holds that have been in place since October 2013 on the delivery of F-16 aircraft, Harpoon missiles, and M1A1 tank kits. The President also advised President al-Sisi that he will continue to request an annual $1.3 billion in military assistance for Egypt. Beginning in fiscal year 2018, the President noted that we will channel U.S. security assistance for Egypt to four categories – counterterrorism, border security, Sinai security, and maritime security – and for sustainment of weapons systems already in Egypt’s arsenal."
-Readout of the President’s Call with President al-Sisi of Egypt
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
As far as Afghanistan - the radical Islamists and Taliban wave kill women and children and destroy their schools. and? Lets talk about China.
Yes, that is a very terrible situation. And it's not one that involves significant US national interests, and it's not a problem the US can solve. Millions have been killed in internecine civil wars in central Africa, where rape as a weapon of war and the use of child soldiers has been common. It's an awful, terrible situation. Do you want the US to intervene there to try to stop it?
Farmer: In addition to being a tone-deaf know-it-all who bullies republicans for sport, you are an idiot. Logic and reason will never Trump the spin fed into the debate by ideological bloggers who make click-bucks keeping the punters scared and conspiratorially paranoid. You can't compete with powerline, insty, ace of spades, add-infant-item.
Erdogan would be wise to not appear too gleeful or too engaged in undermining the reputation of MBS and the relationship of Saudi Arabia with the US. How many journalists did Erdogan put in prison, how many with lifetime sentences, just for the crime of opposing him? Turkey sentences journalists to life in jail over coup attempt, Feb. 2018
@Howard:
Farmer: In addition to being a tone-deaf know-it-all who bullies republicans for sport, you are an idiot. Logic and reason will never Trump the spin fed into the debate by ideological bloggers who make click-bucks keeping the punters scared and conspiratorially paranoid. You can't compete with powerline, insty, ace of spades, add-infant-item.
Ha. Thanks for the shout out, but honestly I am probably more similar to those "ideological bloggers who make click-bucks" than dissimilar. While I am not a Republican, I am certainly a conservative. And even though I considered it a hail mary pass, I voted for Trump for immigration, trade deals, and the possibility of being a less interventionist (i.e. no stupid wars). That's why I voted for him, and that's how I'll judge him. Those are often cited as the three stools of "Trumoism," though really the ideological groundwork was laid by Pat Buchanan during his famous 1992 convention speech. 2000 was the first year I was eligible to vote, and I cast a vote for Pat Buchanan. So I suppose I contributed in some small way to the Florida recount fracas.
Bullies? Hardly.
Smug can attempt to smug somebody to death.
But smug, even in Smug-sizes doses is never fatal.
It is annoying and reliably skippable.
It is annoying and reliably skippable.
And yet you read everything I write. You’re my biggest fan. Thanks!
xoxo
Actually Farmer - I'd prefer a time machine and I'm a time/space traveling avenging angel of death.
Your "we cannot stop it so lets not stop anything" isolationism is grim. But you are free to own it. It is understood.
you're okay with murder and dismemberment?
Aren't you? You are pro abortion, after all. The only difference is geography and age. And I am guessing there were more 'inconvenient' votes than just a single person.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Your "we cannot stop it so lets not stop anything" isolationism is grim. But you are free to own it. It is understood.
Assuming you agree with me that it would not be a good idea to intervene militarily in Africa to stop the killing of women and children, why is that not isolationism? How many American lives would you be willing to sacrifice to protect Afghan women and children? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000?
"How can it be asserted flatly that "the leaks serve nobody’s constructive purpose"?"
Doesn't he have a right to express his opinion?
"In other words, all that speculation is about who may be pursuing a destructive purpose."
Constructive purpose or destructive purpose, at least the leakers have a purpose - unlike Bradley/Chelsea who no longer has his special one.
I would say the key part of the pull quote is the notion that this event gives leverage to Erdogan to use against the Saudi Crown Prince. That seems like motive, which is more information than we know about Stephen Paddock. Heck, we even have more surveillance video of Khashoggi than we do of Stephen Paddock, who set up shop inside a Las Vegas casino.
Why don't you answer your own questions, Farmer - you're the expert.
Who says any American lives should be lost. Not me. You answer your own set-ups. Also Farmer, do not assume I agree with you. Thanks.
J. Farmer said...
"Regarding Spencer, I think he is quite histrionic on this issue. The simplest way to protect America from what he fears is to stop immigration into the country."
Well, good. Maybe we agree about something, so let's start there. I assume you mean that the simplest way to stop what Spencer fears is to stop Muslim immigration into this country, the USA. Is that correct? And am I further correct in inferring that you share, at least to some extent, Spencer's concern, and would support a policy of refusing admission to this country to Muslims?
I assume you mean that the simplest way to stop what Spencer fears is to stop Muslim immigration into this country, the USA.
I agree. The Muslim thing is too fraught with risk from "Sudden Jihad Syndrome." of which we have quite a few examples.
I am less concerned with "sudden Jihad Syndrome" than with creeping Sharia. If I have learned one thing in my lifetime, it is that all slopes are slippery.
The access to billions of tons of strategic energy is not worth the death of a single journalist of questionable provenance.
Not when we have the Left playing footsie with Linda Sarsour, Ellison, apologizing for Iran, etc.
This is hypocrisy bullshit.
What worries me is "We don't need no steenkin' laws!
We will do what we want regardless of your stupid laws!"
So, there! Nah,nah,nah, yeehaw!
How come other nations can have sovereign borders, but we cannot? If we say we want sovereign borders, we are called racists.
#Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Also Farmer, do not assume I agree with you. Thanks.
I don't. If anything, I assume the opposite. That is why I ask questions to try to pin down your position.
Why don't you answer your own questions, Farmer - you're the expert.
I am not an expert. And see above regarding questions.
@Jupiter:
I assume you mean that the simplest way to stop what Spencer fears is to stop Muslim immigration into this country, the USA. Is that correct?
Yes. I have long supported a full moratorium on immigration for at least 10 years.
And am I further correct in inferring that you share, at least to some extent, Spencer's concern, and would support a policy of refusing admission to this country to Muslims?
I think the fears of radical jihadists is a bit overblown, and I consider Spencer a fear monger. It is not the main reason I want to stop immigration into the country, but it is a helpful byproduct.
@FIDO:
The access to billions of tons of strategic energy is not worth the death of a single journalist of questionable provenance.
How are these "billions of tons of strategic energy" at risk? Cancelling arms sales and ending US support for the war in Yemen is not going to stop Saudi oil from being traded in the international market.
I don't care about the international market. I care about OUR market. They are assholes but they are assholes who are not as bad as (short list)
Iran
Iraq
Syria
Turkey
Pakistan
Afghanistan
Yeman
This is YOU projecting your desires in foreign policy.
I am not joining you nor these journalists in their desires to put a wedge between the two countries. Your 'disingenuous' act on this is not convincing anyone.
@FIDO:
I don't care about the international market. I care about OUR market.
You wrote, "The access to billions of tons of strategic energy is not worth the death of a single journalist of questionable provenance." That is a false choice. I'll repeat my question. How are these "billions of tons of strategic energy" at risk?
This is YOU projecting your desires in foreign policy.
No, it's me asking you to backup a claim you made. Please explain how Saudi oil exports are at risk.
I am not joining you nor these journalists in their desires to put a wedge between the two countries. Your 'disingenuous' act on this is not convincing anyone.
I have criticized the US-Saudi relationship for years. And as I have said repeatedly for the last two weeks, the case for that is independent of and predates the Khashoggi case. I criticized the Obama administration for prioritizing arms sales and for supporting the war in Yemen, and I'll continue to criticize them under Trump.
Whether you consider me genuine or not is completely irrelevant, and it makes no difference to my argument.
New Rule:
I can only be held to the precise words I use and no more. Any natural inferences must be disregarded.
New Rule:
You must defend all things I imply about your words.
Now, let's have a strident debate.
Anybody want to play by those rules?
It doesn't require leading questions to nail down April's position. She made her position clear long before you typed the question mark.
Your 'disingenuous' act on this is not convincing anyone.
I agree FIDO, but soon as I hit Publish, I'm sure he'll repeat himself again and expect a new result. 20% of the comments here are his, and about 50% of the other comments are some manner of response to him, and I've seen no mind swayed by him. It's all boring stuff really. We could have had a real discussion on what Erdogan is doing, which was how the topic began today.
@Birkel:
Sweet of you to say, dear. You have my contact information. Get in touch if you're ever in the Tampa Bay area. I'll take you out to dinner. It'll be like the old days, when the taxpayers used to feed you.
@Leland:
She made her position clear long before you typed the question mark.
Okay, so tell me her position on Afghanistan and where in this thread it was "clear."
We could have had a real discussion on what Erdogan is doing, which was how the topic began today.
People are free to engage in whatever discussions with each other they want. If you want to have a conversation about Erdogn with other commenters here, nothing is stopping you.
Very few creatures survive long when deprived of oxygen.
Apply this knowledge carefully.
@Birkel:
Very few creatures survive long when deprived of oxygen.
Apply this knowledge carefully.
You have my contact information. Balls in your court, tough guy. Hug and kisses.
Up around 2004 when the deep state, was waging war against the Bush administration's policies, the CIA's counter terrorism center headed by Paul 'wrong way' pillar, had commissioned Grant's to the Atlantic council which found their way to Richard Clarke who crafted scenarios both in the Atlantic and his version of a Roman a cleft scorpions gate
The premise of the first was that Iraq would inevitably lead to a second wave of attacks that leave us reeling (this was the wave that interrogations helped prevent) also it would inevitably lead to the fall of the house of Saud, details were unclear, like the underwear gnome strategy.
Saudis got sloppy. Sloppy Saudis. Need anything more be said?
J. Farmer said...
"I think the fears of radical jihadists is a bit overblown, and I consider Spencer a fear monger. It is not the main reason I want to stop immigration into the country, but it is a helpful byproduct."
So, if I understand you, you want to stop all immigration into this country (USA)? And at the same time, you don't think that the massive influx of Muslim vermin into the nations of Europe is anything for them to worry about?
The novel took place some times in the future when similar circumstances had the collapse of the regime, one of the characters admits the heretical view that Sunni jihadists would indeed work with Iranian militants, but that wasn't the great evil the new regime had contracted with the Chinese to provide nuclear capable missiles.
@narciso:
Paul Pillar was not head of the CTC in 2004.
The real evil was an ignorant administration who would try to put the Saud back on the throne, stupid humans, because they were obviously worse than the current rulers of what was dubbed islamiyah.
J. Farmer said...
"I think the fears of radical jihadists is a bit overblown ..."
If you had one in your front yard you might feel a little different about that, but never mind. What about creeping sharia?
It might have been Robert grenier, but pillar had plenty of imput.
NERDS
The Hell of Good Intentions: America's Foreign Policy Elite and the Decline of U.S. Primacy by Stephen Walt
I don't agree with everything Walt writers, but this book, which I am still only about halfway through, and it's a good summation of how US foreign policy has gone awry since the end of the Cold War.
Walt did a bloggingheads with Bob Wright that you can watch here. I think Bob's ideas about world governance are idealistic and naive to say the least, but he is a pretty decent interlocutor in this exchange.
The same Stephen walt who assured us Ben Ali would remain, two weeks before he fell?
The coauthor of the protocols of diplomatic analysis.
Birkel said...
"Nobody plays with Smug. Everybody ignores."
You forget that for everyone who posts here, there are many others who "lurk", reading without posting. I agree it is unnecessary to confront morons like Igna, but J. Farmer is clearly both intelligent and well-informed. To refuse to engage his well-stated arguments simply leaves them unchallenged. I prefer to investigate his views, argue when he is wrong, and agree with him when he is right.
Stephen Walt doesn't appreciate Israeli Jewish influence on US foreign policy, but he is not sloppy. The Saudis are sloppy.
@Jupiter:
So, if I understand you, you want to stop all immigration into this country (USA)? And at the same time, you don't think that the massive influx of Muslim vermin into the nations of Europe is anything for them to worry about?
To the first question. To the second question, I have not mentioned Europe in this thread, but I have previously said that Merkel's welcoming of refugees into Europe was a catastrophe. I think the EU and the free movement of people has been a disaster for Europe. I think Libya contributed greatly to the situation because of the west's foolish regime change against Qaddafi and the subsequent destabilization that occurred in Mali. Both of which contributed to a massive refugee crisis in the Mediterranean. I think US efforts to try to help radical Sunnis in Syria bring down the Assad regime was foolish beyond belief and has also contributed to the problem. I think turning three large countries in North Africa and the Middle East into failed states is a foolishly counterproductive strategy.
If you had one in your front yard you might feel a little different about that, but never mind. What about creeping sharia?
I think fears of "creeping sharia" are paranoid. Muslims are about 1% of the US population and don't have much political power to effect that kind of change. Bur also "creeping sharia" is a bit of a vague phrase, so if you had a more descriptive sketch in your mind about how such a thing could come to pass, I can give my opinion.
He is, even though he is young, but there seems to be a contradiction in his policy suggestions, otoh the kingdom is corrupt and evil, (well we can concur on the first point but compared to which regime)
Donald Trump is not blobby, says Walt, but he is messy. So forget that Donald Trump is not blobby: read about the blob, says Walt.
Yes Libya was a fool hardy gesture, who was the Obama administration listening to, certainly not the kingdom, same with Egypt, and throw in Tunisia for the trifecta, they were listening to qatar.
@narciso:
The same Stephen walt who assured us Ben Ali would remain, two weeks before he fell?
I'll repeat what I wrote: "I don't agree with everything Walt writers, but this book, which I am still only about halfway through, and it's a good summation of how US foreign policy has gone awry since the end of the Cold War."
If you only prefer to read people who are always right all the time, go ahead. That's going to be a very short reading list.
He is, even though he is young, but there seems to be a contradiction in his policy suggestions, otoh the kingdom is corrupt and evil, (well we can concur on the first point but compared to which regime)
If you do not mind me asking, what is the "contradiction in his policy suggestions?"
When was he right, then, now Paul pillar is legendarily wrong, yet Daniel Silva has him as the model for the agency brahmin adrian Carter, (reading inbetween the lines)
So middle east eye (the aljazeera tabloid) introduces us to the tiger squad, which is the real version of scandals b 613, which theor one source is somewhat privy to all their secrets.
If the hashenites had stayed in charge of the shrines, instead of taking up Lawrence's offer, much of this would have been avoided,
For it was the great war, that allowed ibn Saud to escape the nejd and seize mecca and medina.
It also gave haj Amin Hussein an opportunity for power and demagoguery that his brother would not have indulged. Of course on the earlier point blaming st John philby would have to enter into this.
"If ifs and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas."
From my perspective, Wilson's dragging the US into the foolish European Great War was the most colossal foreign policy blunder this country has ever engaged in. Though to be slightly generous to Wilson, the man appeared to be hopelessly under the influence of Edward Mandell House.
I am also looking forward to reading The Phoney Victory: The World War II Illusion by Peter Hitchens. I have had a few brief exchanges with Peter, and he and I seem to see eye-to-eye on a number of foreign policy questions. I enjoy WWII revisionism, and I liked Buchanan's Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War though I was never convinced of its thesis.
That's probably true, now would tr made the same mistakes?
Well I lean more toward niall Ferguson's point toward the first, which probably would have obviated the second.
J. Farmer said...
'"creeping sharia" is a bit of a vague phrase, so if you had a more descriptive sketch in your mind about how such a thing could come to pass, I can give my opinion.'
It is already coming to pass in Europe and the UK, and Michigan. A democratic polity is responsive to voters, no matter how primitive and ignorant they might be, provided only that they can be organized and mobilized to vote. In the UK, this has led to charming situations like Rotterham, where what passes for "political correctness" in Britain resulted in public officials covering up for predatory Muslim rapists. In many European nations, there are no-go zones, where police and emergency personnel are attacked, and non-Muslim women are harassed, assaulted and raped.
Some Muslims may not be scum, but every last one of them reveres scum, they are led by scum, and they will unquestioningly follow those scum. They are unfit for inclusion in a democratic polity, and they will be the ruin of any democracy that includes them in any significant numbers.
@narciso:
That's probably true, now would tr made the same mistakes?
Roosevelt was advocating for war while stumping for Charles Evans Hughes in 1916, and even after Wilson's victory attempted to have either Wilson or Congress authorize volunteer units a la the "Rough Riders" to fight in Europe. Now would Teddy have proven as ineffectual at Versailles as Wilson is the real question.
Well I lean more toward niall Ferguson's point toward the first, which probably would have obviated the second.
it has been a long time since I read The Pity of War. I certainly agree with Ferguson's assertion that Britain should have stayed out of the WWI, though I think he was a little soft on the German's ultimate responsibility for causing the war with their backing of the Austro-Hungarian's foolish decision to launch a war of reprisal against Serbia.
@Jupiter:
It is already coming to pass in Europe and the UK, and Michigan.
Well, I think the British and the Europeans are in a bit of a different situation than us. Fortunately for us, unfortunately for them.
A democratic polity is responsive to voters, no matter how primitive and ignorant they might be, provided only that they can be organized and mobilized to vote.
That also brings up the issue of Sharia law and the Establishment Clause. Even if such laws were passed at a local level, they would not be able to pass Constitutional muster.
In the UK, this has led to charming situations like Rotterham, where what passes for "political correctness" in Britain resulted in public officials covering up for predatory Muslim rapists
Rotherham is obviously a disgusting blite on England's reputation. Though as insane as PC culture can seem in the US, I still don't think it compares to what has risen in placed like the UK and France. Also, the US has constitutional protections on speech that provide for a much livelier and robust debate.
Can you give me any examples of it "already coming to pass in...Michigan?"
They are unfit for inclusion in a democratic polity, and they will be the ruin of any democracy that includes them in any significant numbers.
I am not a particular fan of democracy and think its value to our society is a bit overblown thanks to Cold War competition with Soviets. Liberalism and rule of law are much more important than democracy per se, and I think the prospects of some kind of Muslin Enlightenment or Muslin Reformation is a chimera. One of the reasons the Enlightenment was able to succeed was because of the collapse of hierarchical authority during the Reformation and the fact that Christianity carved out independent domains regarding the physical and spiritual. The Bible begins with an apocalyptic Jew who believes in the imminence of a divine cosmic action. The Quran has quite different origins and intentions.
No, it's me asking you to backup a claim you made. Please explain how Saudi oil exports are at risk.
This is you being dishonest again. If we make the changes in policy that you favor with the Saudis, essentially spitting in their eye and calling them pig fuckers as you seem to prefer, you would like to pretend that this nation of tribal sociopaths will be pragmatic big boys like J Farmer and be happy to continue to entertain the same level of economic ties that we currently enjoy.
I won't say it is impossible, but I can say it is...extraordinarily unlikely. And that you don't care about the repercussions of such a change in policy makes you seem very shortsighted to me.
Not that you care about my opinion. But it seems, considering the level of criticism you are garnering, that I am not the only person who thinks your assertions are nonsense.
So...is everyone else wrong and you are a sublime genius...or?
I am going with 'or'.
"Can you give me any examples of it "already coming to pass in...Michigan?"
Google Dearborn Christian
"I am not a particular fan of democracy and think its value to our society is a bit overblown thanks to Cold War competition with Soviets."
Setting to one side your bizarre implication that American democratic values arose in the last century, would it be fair to say that you believe Islam is only a threat to American society in the unlikely event that we stubbornly persist in governing ourselves by holding elections?
@FIDO:
If we make the changes in policy that you favor with the Saudis, essentially spitting in their eye and calling them pig fuckers as you seem to prefer...
In short, yes. Saudis are not trading with us because they like us; they do so out of self-interest. And if you think that "spitting in their eye and calling them pig fuckers" is what "seem to prefer," then you have made no honest attempt to actually read what I write. I have said repeatedly that the US should maintain normal diplomatic and commercial relations with Saudi Arabia. The US is not obligated to supply the Saudis with arms, and we are not obligated to defend them in Yemen. Russia has been on the other side of Saudi Arabia in Syria, is a close partner of Iran, and has maintained a neutral stance in regards to Yemen. Has this led to any retaliatory action against Russia by Saudi Arabia?
you would like to pretend that this nation of tribal sociopaths will be pragmatic big boys like J Farmer and be happy to continue to entertain the same level of economic ties that we currently enjoy.
I don't think the leadership of Saudi Arabia are "tribal sociopaths." They appear to be largely cold, calculating, brutal, and pragmatic. China, India, and Japan all import more from Saudi Arabia than the US does.
But it seems, considering the level of criticism you are garnering, that I am not the only person who thinks your assertions are nonsense.
So...is everyone else wrong and you are a sublime genius...or?
Well, if by "everyone else" you mean the two or three people who have been arguing with me, I am going to go with myself on that one. And you do not have to be a "sublime genius" to come to the same conclusion I have. For example, the intellectual godfather of Trumpism, Mr. Pat Buchanan:
"However, which would be a greater violation of human rights: the sanctioned killing of a political enemy of the regime or 10,000 dead Yemenis, including women and children, and millions facing malnutrition and starvation in a Saudi war of aggression being fought with the complicity and cooperation of the United States?
Rather than resist Congress’ proposed sanctions, President Trump might take this opportunity to begin a long withdrawal from decades of entanglement in Mideast wars that have availed us nothing and cost us greatly."
-Should US-Saudi Alliance Be Saved?
What happens next, we have somewhat more leverage because of fracking but oil is still q fungible product, I think the political leadership is problematic because of the 7,000 princes,
@Jupiter:
Google Dearborn Christian
I did, and the first two pages are mostly lists of preschools and churches. If I was to find something more salacious, I am afraid I have missed it. Perhaps you can be more specific.
Setting to one side your bizarre implication that American democratic values arose in the last century, would it be fair to say that you believe Islam is only a threat to American society in the unlikely event that we stubbornly persist in governing ourselves by holding elections?
I did not say that "American democratic values arose in the last century." I said that they were emphasized during the Cold War. This was a means of differentiating ourselves from the USSR. Classical liberalism up through the 19th century was very skeptical and occasionally very hostile to the idea of democracy. The views of figures like Adams, Hamilton, and Franklin towards democracy are quite clear.
"Rather than resist Congress’ proposed sanctions, President Trump might take this opportunity to begin a long withdrawal from decades of entanglement in Mideast wars that have availed us nothing and cost us greatly."
Internal Iranian military documents describe a plan to destroy the US power grid by detonating a nuclear weapon several hundred miles above the central US, launched from a small vessel operating off the Atlantic Coast. These plans are entirely feasible, given a small nuclear weapon such as the Iranians may already have, long-range missiles such as those they are developing, and a suitable launch platform. Iran has recently begun operating naval vessels in the Atlantic Ocean. How far from the central US do you believe we should retreat, in order to avoid annoying the Iranian Mullahs? I recall that you were OK with the Norks nuking Seattle, but you live in Florida. Are you also OK with the Mullahs destroying your power grid?
@narciso
What happens next, we have somewhat more leverage because of fracking but oil is still q fungible product, I think the political leadership is problematic because of the 7,000 princes,
What happens next is anyone's guess. MBS' ascension to the throne certainly seems less secure than it was a few months ago. His impulsiveness and recklessness do not bode well for the Kingdom's future. Yemen is a quagmire, and MBS' actions have contributed to massive capital flight from Saudi Arabia, the exact opposite of his stated goal.
Reforming the clerical institution is also fraught with challenges, since the al Saud family is stuck in a devil's bargain with the clerical establishment. They agree to support the Saudi brand of salafism, the clerical establishment supports the family as the custodians of the two mosques, and they look the other way as spoiled Saudi princelings live decadent lives of driving Ferrari's around Europe, drinking whiskey, and screwing whores.
"Classical liberalism up through the 19th century was very skeptical and occasionally very hostile to the idea of democracy. The views of figures like Adams, Hamilton, and Franklin towards democracy are quite clear."
While it is true that the Founders used the term "democracy" to refer to what existed in classical Athens, which they regarded, with reason, as mob rule, there is no question that elections, and the consent of the governed, were essential elements of the republican system of government they devised. This was so for both practical and philosophical reasons.
But that aside, are you arguing that it is "histrionic" to be concerned about the threat posed by Islamic immigration, when we can easily counter it simply by eliminating democracy and instituting totalitarian rule?
@Jupiter:
These plans are entirely feasible, given a small nuclear weapon such as the Iranians may already have, long-range missiles such as those they are developing, and a suitable launch platform.
There is zero evidence that the Iranians "may already have" any nuclear weapons, small medium or large. You can read the latest IAEA report on verification and monitoring here.
Iran has recently begun operating naval vessels in the Atlantic Ocean.
No they have not.
"Iran's navy consists of a handful of frigates and dozens of small missile boats, plus a few small diesel submarines including three Russian-built Kilo-class subs. It's a regional navy that poses some danger to ships operating in the Persian Gulf, but lacks the long-range vessels—and the equally vital resupply ships—to operate 6,000 miles away near the North American coast."
-Is Iran Getting Ready to Send Warships to the U.S. East Coast?
Also:
"Iran’s ability to interdict shipping in the Red Sea is limited by its aging surface fleet and by the small number of submarines and missiles it can deploy to the waterway. Despite Iran’s growing interest in expanding its influence into the Bab-el-Mandeb Strait and the southern Red Sea as a means of securing its regional power, its current naval forces are tasked primarily with shutting the Strait of Hormuz."
-AN ASSESSMENT OF IRANIAN NAVAL CAPABILITIES IN THE RED SEA
I recall that you were OK with the Norks nuking Seattle, but you live in Florida.
I have never said anything remotely like that.
@Jupiter:
But that aside, are you arguing that it is "histrionic" to be concerned about the threat posed by Islamic immigration, when we can easily counter it simply by eliminating democracy and instituting totalitarian rule?
No, I think it is histrionic because Muslims in America are too small (perhaps 1% of the population) to wield the kind of political power you are fearing. Even in Michigan they are only slightly more than 1% of the population.
You still have not given any examples of "creeping Sharia" in Michigan...
"You still have not given any examples of "creeping Sharia" in Michigan... "
The examples occur between people's ears.
That's all that matters. Not just libs get triggered. We all have neurons.
@anti-de Sitter space said
The examples occur between people's ears.
Except that wasn't what Jupiter claimed. He said that "creeping sharia" is "already coming to pass in...Michigan." I asked for examples of this and so far have not heard anything substantive, only vague suggestions to google terms that resulted in a list of local churches and daycares.
He basically needs the confidence of the king, I don't think the allegiance council can recall him, as for Yemen, its tragic that the land of the queen of sheba is in these straights but the same might have been said about Lebanon thirty years ago
J Farm,
The only fact that matters is the electrical activity between our ears.
There is no data to support this. It's not a question of petaflops. Just peeps bein' peeps.
IOW,
You'll never get Jupiter to acknowledge the mistake.
Just move on.
Duly noted :)
It is comforting to one's (e.g. Jupiter's) mind to keep up bluster rather than acknowledge an error.
Of course this doesn't make the wrong person right. Of course everyone else (who thinks) can see that the wrong person is wrong. None of that matters. The wrong person is only working to coddle their own mind. Mission accomplished.
BTW, you don't think yur efforts here affect others, i.e. others than yourself. Do you?
It's just fun here. A diversion. IMHO.
I'm in these threads to mess w/ electrons in my own head.
I'm never disappointed.
FGM is on the rise in the US.
Could you imagine what Farmer would say if it was a christian mob throwing shit at Muslims?
Note the Dearborn police did nothing to stop the violent mob.
Just like democrat pols tell police not to protect Trump supporters.
It isn't so much that Muslims by themselves are dangerous. If it was just Muslims no big deal.
It is that they and leftists who ally with them have the same goals and tactics.
But like everything else Farmer is disingenuous about this.
anti-de Sitter space said...
I'm in these threads to mess w/ electrons in my own head.
I'm never disappointed.
That is because you aren't really all that smart.
@anti-de Sitter space:
BTW, you don't think yur efforts here affect others, i.e. others than yourself. Do you?
Certainly not. But it is entertaining, and it is a helpful intellectual exercise. There are occasionally good back and forths that I enjoy and who knows about people who read but don't comment.
FTR,
I read every word you type, when I'm around (btw, 'when I'm around' is not related to when I'm commenting -- I seem eager to bluster, but the reality is that I'm usually silent.)
I'm into statements that point to facts re support. Hence your stuff.
There was a time in this blog's history when shame effectively kept folks away from substituting opinion for fact.
Oh well.
IMHO.
@Achilles:
Could you imagine what Farmer would say if it was a christian mob throwing shit at Muslims?
With all due respect, you're a fucking idiot. As I have said repeatedly, over and over on this website: (1) I am a nationalist with ethno-national sympathies (2) I support a near total shut down of immigration into the country for a minimum of 10 years (3) I support a wall on the southern border (4) I have said for years, long before Trump rode down that escalator, that the simplest way to protect ourselves from Islamic terrorism was to not allow Muslims into the country (4) One of my favorite catchphrases is "America is Doomed" due to demographic trends (5) I voted for Trump, even though I have said that I believe it is a hail mary pass that is probably too late.
I also believe that the hyper-interventionist foreign policy we have adopted since 9/11 has largely been counterproductive and created more problems than it solved. I opposed interventionism under Bush, under Obama, and now under Trump. In other words, my position has been very consistent. I don't need to know if a person has a "D" or an "R" after their name to figure out if I agree with them. When Mitt Romney called Russia our "number one geopolitical foe," I thought it was absurd and said so at the time. I have always supported an easing of tensions with Russia. I supported it under Bush, Obama, and now Trump. And now that the Russophobia is emanating from the left, my position remains exactly as it has been.
But like everything else Farmer is disingenuous about this.
Right. By being consistent in my views on foreign policy for almost 20 years, I am being "disingenuous." By the way, Achilles, you have made references to serving in Iraq in the past. If I am recalling this incorrectly, please correct me and accept my apology. But if not, answer me this, did you think you and your comrades were three fighting and putting your lives at risk for an Iraq where "Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation," and where "No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established?" Remember when conservatives used to try to teach liberals about the law of unintended consequences? Perhaps when people caution about stupid, counterproductive wars, you should be a little more circumspect and not immediately resort to the hurling of schoolyard-level insults.
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