An excellent topic, well-explored on the NYT "Daily" podcast with Michael Barbaro. I recommend listening to the whole thing. There's no transcript, but from the notes on the show:
Under fire for contradicting United States intelligence reports of Russian interference in the presidential election, Mr. Trump asserted on Tuesday that he had misspoken at his news conference with Mr. Putin, and that he had meant to say, “I don’t see any reason why it wouldn’t be Russia,” rather than “would.” He added, “Could be other people, also.”On the subject of the prominence of the term "treason," there's a link to an article from yesterday that says:
Never in the modern era has the word “treason” become part of the national conversation in such a prominent way. Some of those who voted for Mr. Trump struggled to endorse his approach, but many are reaffirming their support.
[John O. Brennan, the former C.I.A. director... called [Trump's] performance “nothing short of treasonous.” The late-night hosts Stephen Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel also invoked treason on their shows. The front-page banner headline for The New York Daily News declared “OPEN TREASON.”When I hear "treason" used in political discourse like that, my mind drifts back to 1964 and the rise of Barry Goldwater. One of the key books of that time was "None Dare Call It Treason." I look it up, and what they hell? The first hit is the NYT obituary for its author, dated yesterday!
Max Boot, the former Republican who has become one of Mr. Trump’s sharpest critics, noted in a column on Monday in The Washington Post that accusing him of treason was once unthinkable. No longer....
Mr. Trump returned to the White House on Monday night as protesters outside the gate shouted, “Welcome home, traitor.” Even Dictionary.com trolled the president, tweeting out a definition: “Traitor: A person who commits treason by betraying his or her country.”
It later said that searches for “treason” had increased by 2,943 percent. By Tuesday afternoon, the word “traitor” had been used on Twitter 800,000 times and the word “treason” about 1.2 million times....
John A. Stormer, whose self-published 1964 book, “None Dare Call It Treason,” became a right-wing favorite despite being attacked as inaccurate in promulgating the notion that American government and institutions were full of Communist sympathizers, died on July 10 in Troy, Mo. He was 90....That was the deployment of the word "treason" that went big in the 60s. People who were not right-wing, of course, viewed it as anti-communist hysteria, a throwback to the McCarthy era, and that's the way I've seen the word "treason" all this time. But John Brennan threw it back into the American discourse and the Trump antagonists have run with it. Nothing else has worked to stop Trump, so why not crack open this 100-foot long gushing fissure?
Communists, Mr. Stormer wrote, were bent on infiltrating the American government and had largely succeeded, as evidenced by American and United Nations economic support for Communist countries.
“The Communists have sworn to bury us,” Mr. Stormer wrote. “We are digging our own graves.... From where has the money come to build and finance the vast collectivist underground which reaches its tentacles into education, the churches, labor and the press?” he asked. “Amazingly, the fortunes of America’s most successful tycoons, dedicated by them to the good of mankind, have been redirected to finance the socialization of the United States.”
IN THE COMMENTS: Robert Cook writes:
It's really outrageous and alarming, this tsunami of people shouting "treason" at Trump for...what? Because he disputes our intelligence agencies? That does not fit the definition of treason. And besides, fuck our intelligence agencies!
This must be a coordinated effort to drown Trump in shit to the point where he can't move or speak, where he is immobilized. I don't say this as a fan of Trump--I think he's terrible in just about every way--but to recognize that there are powerful forces who will do whatever they must to stop any president from pursuing courses of action that they do not approve of. The Military/Industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us of, by whatever name it should be known now, is more powerful than ever, and sees itself as sovereign over us all. Those who hate Trump may cheer this now, but they will cry when the same tactics are used by these forces to paralyze the efforts of a president whom they do support.
"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." Thomas Paine
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183 comments:
Lefties had no problem contradicting every intelligence assessment during the Iraq War--heck, since WWII. Why wasn't that "treason" again?
They use the word 'treason' because 'racist' and 'sexist' didn't work.
Man, we blew past 11 a long time ago.
The derangement is strong in these folks.
And now were so far past 11 we can’t distinguish a 1 from a 10.
Its like that famous New Yorker cover “A New Yorker’s view of the world”.
John Brennen voted Communist and managed to infiltrate into our government to be the Director of the CIA.
How many on the left are actually ignorant enough to believe what they are saying, and how many are just saying it because they are so desperate to regain power? That's what I would like to know. Not sure which of those groups is more worrisome; I guess it depends on the relative size.
Mute your television.
John A. Stormer, whose self-published 1964 book, “None Dare Call It Treason,” became a right-wing favorite despite being attacked as inaccurate in promulgating the notion that American government and institutions were full of Communist sympathizers, died on July 10 in Troy, Mo. He was 90....
The truth is that we now know that the accusations accurate. There were even more in government than even the author thought in his wildest imaginings.
Earl Browder, Stalin's man in the US had a lot to do with that.
His grandson Bill Browder is currently in the news and was called out by Putin by Name the other day for giving $400m or $400mm to the Crocked Hilary campaign.
The amount is unclear. It was originally $400mm but corrected to $400m now it may be back to $400mm. In any amount it is a lot for a British subject to be giving to an American politician.
John Henry
Phil 3:14 said...
Man, we blew past 11 a long time ago
They cranked up the outrage to at least 13 with Kennedy's retirement announcement. The thing they can't grasp is that a lot of people have just tuned them out completely.
How can the things Brennan and Comey are saying *not* paint their work in a vary suspicious light?
If you were Trump and you saw Brennan accusing you of treason, and Comey writing that people must vote for Democrats- wouldn't you assume you were being railroaded? I would!
Blogger مؤسسة العلا said...
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John Brennan, is that you posting again?
It's really outrageous and alarming, this tsunami of people shouting "treason" at Trump for...what? Because he disputes our intelligence agencies? That does not fit the definition of treason. And besides, fuck our intelligence agencies!
This must be a coordinated effort to drown Trump in shit to the point where he can't move or speak, where he is immobilized. I don't say this as a fan of Trump--I think he's terrible in just about every way--but to recognize that there are powerful forces who will do whatever they must to stop any president from pursuing courses of action that they do not approve of. The Military/Industrial complex that Eisenhower warned us of, by whatever name it should be known now, is more powerful than ever, and sees itself as sovereign over us all. Those who hate Trump may cheer this now, but they will cry when the same tactics are used by these forces to paralyze the efforts of a president whom they do support.
"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." Thomas Paine
People used to say if you talk the talk you have to walk the walk. Now it's just talk.
Sexism. Racism. Immigrant. Collusion. Treason.
The effect of Leftism has been to destroy the meaning of all words in a stop-at-nothing attempt to control "the truth".
The media are already creating the Ministry of Truth. They no longer report the news, they tell you what *really* happened.
1984 is already here.
100% Agree with Robert Cook. (well, not F* our intelligence agencies in general, but they are out of control and have been getting more and more so)
Funny about 1964-vintage anticommunism. I was just this morning imagining a Seven Days in May remake, except that instead of signing a radical and arguably reckless disarmament treaty, the president - wait for it - says nice things about the Soviet premier, and a cadre of selfless national security professionals decide he must be removed.
(In this version the coup plotters are the good guys, of course.)
It doesn't help the lefts and their LLR Chuck-like allies that so much of what they claim is demonstrably false and obviously so.
One needs only list every policy decision the Trump admin has made regarding Russia and Russia activities across the globe to know that the lefties/LLR's are simply insane and its all being driven by lunatic lefty politics.
The desperation of the lefties in calling russian meddling the equivalent of Kristallnacht, Pearl Harbor, 9-11 (they are running out of wildly inappropriate hyperbolic equivalencies) is certainly evidence of something.
I wonder if it might have anything to do with the continued peeling back of the truth behind the spying and running intel ops against a domestic political opponent?
Spoiler Alert: It is.
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.
-sw
Robert Cook,
I agree with your "coordinated effort to drown" theory. However, it's not the Military/Industrial complex, it's the "law enforcement/intelligence agency/Democratic party" complex that is behind this, certainly with a strong assist from a portion of the Republican establishment.
Wow, Cookie sees the conspiracy, but cant bring himself to acknowledge that it is obviously communist in origin, and claims it's the old communist's bete noir "the military industrial complex" instead. To those of us who understand that it is and has always been a communist conspiracy, Cook brands himself as a part of it.
MadisonMan said...
They use the word 'treason' because 'racist' and 'sexist' didn't work.
Agree.
Reading Cookie’s comment reminds me of the strange affinity between those who love and admire Edward Snowden and those who love and admire Trump.
Prime example of that: Glenn Greenwald. He’s getting love from Fox!
Robert Cook,
I *often* disagree with you. But this time, you were pretty spot on. If I could buy you a beer I would.
Regards,
My name goes here
Man, we blew past 11 a long time ago.
The media is going to find it increasing hard to express even more outrage at the next thing to keep their readers' attention. I suggest self immolation.
@ Robert Cook:
Thank you for stating the obvious truth that has been lost in the (carefully managed) mob hysteria. Each day I think "this can't get any worse". Each day I am wrong.
"... certainly with a strong assist from a portion of the Republican establishment."
It's beginning to look like more than "a portion" (if by "portion" you mean some fraction below 50%).
In terms of the Republican establishment, I'd say its a solid majority, both within the offices of Congress and the Senate as well as all the federal agencies and the Trust Fund Baby Republicans in the media.
However, like most populist candidates, Trump appeals to base voters across party lines and that is what is keeping him afloat, which is why every single day the media attempt to gin up talking points (dutifully repeated by lefty automatons and certain LLR's) that are intended to separate Trump from these base voters.
"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
Why, if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
-----John Harington (1561-1612)
Drago,
I'm thinking more like 40%, which (in today's closely divided political environment) has a huge impact.
Also, in my previous post, that should be "the law enforcement/intelligence agency/Democratic party/media/education" complex.
exhelodrvr1: "Drago, I'm thinking more like 40%, which (in today's closely divided political environment) has a huge impact."
Agreed.
The number is large in any event as the institutions, as all do, become self-replicating.
Brennan is deranged. That he could rise to the top of any government agency, particularly one that operates in secret and depends on trust for its legitimacy, reveals the rot in DC. These intelligence services are not co-equal branches of government, yet they seek secrecy and independence and attack anyone who threatens their power. Only the credulous take what they say at face value. Show me the evidence if you want me to believe.
Trump says that he thinks the spread of nuclear weapons is the gravest threat facing the world, and he is acting to address it. That was the whole point of engaging Kim and of taking a hard line against Iran and Islamic terror. It is also the motivating factor in the attempt to engage with Putin. Purposely insulting Putin over "interference" that every country does, including the US, does not advance the goal of reaching some accord on preventing the spread or use of nukes. And so far, the most specific instance of alleged interference looks to be 1) al alleged hack of the DNC that exposed the truth about rigging the primary for Hill (which the media and the Brennans of the world think is the real crime), and 2) Facebook memes to try to sow discord. Because before that exposure of corruption within the D's and before those Facebook memes we were harmonious, united in reverence for the Obama. But don't interfere to sow discord! As if accusing the president of treason doesn't sow discord. If discord was Putin's goal, he's winning by seeing the treason freakout. What a bunch of morons we are.
"It's author", highlighted in blue? And you, a law professor.
Lefties had no problem contradicting every intelligence assessment during the Iraq War--heck, since WWII. Why wasn't that "treason" again?
Actually you did call it treason. So cry me a river. And Bush was cherry picking his intelligence to justify invading Iraq.
I told you people to pay me my $40,000 and now look at what has happened (because you cheapies didn't pay).
Just look!
John Tuffnell: "Brennan is deranged."
Nope.
He is hiding crimes against our republic by himself and his vast govt group of allies against opponents of the Iran deal, supporters of Israel,
Brennan knows that either Trump will survive and this information will be fully exposed OR Trump can be hounded from office and the entire dem/lefty/LLR/GOPe'r's will then move to bury all of this.
This is a political fight to the death.
That scenario explains everything.
Remember what Chuck Schumer said about taking on the intel community in Jan of 2017:
"Let me tell you, you take on the Intelligence Community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you. So, even for a practical supposedly hard-nosed businessman he's (Trump) being really dumb to do this."
--Chuck Schumer
""It's author", highlighted in blue?"
Corrected.
It's very easy to do homophone typos.... but I just learned recently that Thomas Jefferson used and defended the apostrophe in the possessive pronoun "its."
Field Marshall Freder: "Actually you did call it treason. So cry me a river. And Bush was cherry picking his intelligence to justify invading Iraq"
Wrong. All laughably debunked over and over again.
Possibly a lie on your part but since you aren't that bright it's more likely that you simply remain a moo-cow herd member.
Once again, to be lunatic lefty/LLR, you have to rewrite history every single day.
But only every single day.
"And Bush was cherry picking his intelligence to justify invading Iraq."
George Tenet, CIA Director, called WMD in Iraq a slam dunk. That's a big cherry to pick. James "The Clapper" Clapper also vouched for those WMD's.
The point is that these people are venal, have their own institutional interests to promote, and are fallible. Trust nothing they say unless backed by proof, then scrutinize the proof (Colin Powell).
John Tuffnell: "The point is that these people are venal, have their own institutional interests to promote, and are fallible. Trust nothing they say unless backed by proof, then scrutinize the proof"
Even asking whether or not the FBI ever actually analyzed the democrat servers or what actual evidence existed to justify the spying on the Trump campaign brands one a treasonous traitor these days.
Hmmmmm, talk about acting like you have something to hide....
"Wow, Cookie sees the conspiracy, but cant bring himself to acknowledge that it is obviously communist in origin, and claims it's the old communist's bete noir "the military industrial complex" instead. To those of us who understand that it is and has always been a communist conspiracy, Cook brands himself as a part of it."
Don't be jejune.
Cook: "Don't be jejune"
Clearly.
It's Tour de France time. Obviously, it's jeJuly.
Brennan on Trump's treason: "It's a slam dunk!"
A friend used to try to explain its vs it's by saying that there's no apostrophe in hers.
But you see her's, so it's not working.
if this be Treason, let's make the most of it.
I perceive it also as an all-out war against the people by the sludge in the institutional government who regard themselves so highly, which leads me to support Trump because they are making a hero (in a classics sense) of him. I suspect a lot of people are discerning this pattern as well. I expect Trump will gain support from the non-sludge as the war continues because the sludge are making the process so evident--they are shining the spotlight in their darkness as they try to exterminate Trump ("evil appears as good in the minds of those whom [the] gods lead to destruction" Sophocles).
In just the last 48 hours, democrats and exposed deep stater's have come out and called the Trump and the Helsinki meeting Kristallnacht, Pearl Harbor, the equivalent of 9-11, the Holocaust.
But whatever you do, don't call them unhinged.
That would be "over the top" or something....
To those of us who understand that it is and has always been a communist conspiracy, Cook brands himself as a part of it.
Indeed. So, pick one.
1. Cook is a useful idiot.
2. Cook's endorsement of democratic ideals is a sham that he would immediately drop if he had any power.
Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.
Maybe it’s just me, but it seems treasonous for members of the legislative branch to call the leader of the executive branch a traitor.
"To those of us who understand that it is and has always been a communist conspiracy, Cook brands himself as a part of it."
Take off your tin-foil hat. Your "understanding" was and is delusion.
To those of us who understand that it is and has always been a communist conspiracy,
"Those of us who understand" being the John Birchers? The illuminati?
Funny, how the phrasing "is and always has been" resembles "Oceania was at war with Eastasia: Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia"
Yes even Trump throws around the word treason: Somebody said, ‘treasonous.’ I mean, yeah, I guess, why not? Can we call that treason? Why not? I mean, they certainly didn’t seem to love our country very much.”
Frankly I think the way to end some of this madness is to vote the gutless out of congress.
I work in and for the military-industrial complex. Where I work we actually refer to our associated companies and organizations as the military-industrial complex, and to us that is a good thing. All of which is to say that I speak with very modest authority in this regard: we currently are not involved in any effort to make us "sovereign over all." Well, at least not so far as I know. But, then, I'm a low-level drone. Could be that my military-complex overlords are engaged in nefarious undertakings. They can be sneaky that way.
I predict this level of hyperbole will assist the #WalkAway folks.
More evidence here that Cook thinks for himself: good for you Cook. It's very encouraging to me to see the rise of the rational principled left in folks like Alan Dershowitz, Steven Pinker and Jonathan Haidt. Except for Dershowitz, they don't get the play they deserve. Civil society depends on rational discourse and a shared commitment to a just order. Way too many are interested only in power and are willing to break the system to get it. Trump by his very presence draws them into the light. It's amazing really: this is how democracy is preserved.
John O. Brennan, the former C.I.A. director... called [The CIA's] performance “nothing short of treasonous.
Fixed it for you John
Pro Tip: Be careful not to eat any treasonous mushrooms.
FYI, Cook, another great "agrarian reformer," Daniel Ortega, is now driving his Nicaraguan opposition into a church in Managua and surrounding the church with military and para-military forces randomly shooting into the church. Death toll rising.
Back when I was a useful idiot, like you, I too thought that it was just the "wrong people in charge."
Ortega was one of the most celebrated "right" people, wasn't he?
And back when I was a kid, I believed the bullshit that Ortega really took to heart his democratic ideals.
'but I just learned recently that Thomas Jefferson used and defended the apostrophe in the possessive pronoun "its."'
Yeah, well he owned slaves, so favoring a possessive apostrophe for "it" is basically supporting the Holocaust (or, perhaps, the Spanish Flu).
we currently are not involved in any effort to make us "sovereign over all."
Thirty years ago, I worked on the edge of various IC people trying to coordinate future systems. I sure hope the people actually operating them are more competent and effective.
Robert Cook said...
It's really outrageous and alarming, this tsunami of people shouting "treason" at Trump for...what? Because he disputes our intelligence agencies? That does not fit the definition of treason. And besides, fuck our intelligence agencies!
What does it say for our society, that Robert Cook is a (the?) voice of reason and sanity on the left?
—I just learned recently that Thomas Jefferson used and defended the apostrophe in the possessive pronoun "its."—
Jefferson also defended the French Revolution, even during the Terror.
Trump's unexpected arrival is like switching on the lights in the kitchen in the middle of the night in a house that has cockroaches. Switching on the light doesn't create the cockroaches - they are always there. They just don't have time to hide when it's that sudden.
Once upon a time, treason was a right-wing delusion. Now, it is becoming a lefty cliche.
Covered by the Universal Theory of Progressive Instrumentalism, of course: linguistics is a tool.
Applying the theory here requires further conditions: why this tool, why now?
Other TDS language hasn't stuck, so progs need to escalate. Treason escalates.
In foreign affairs, treason is the big gun. In the ongoing civil war, progs prefer the big gun.
Of course, this presupposes utter shamelessness on the part of progs who always objected to the use of treason to vilify unpatriotic Americans. But that's part of the theory: shame doesn't enter into it. (Except when it can be used situationally as a tool, preferably by inducing it in tender-hearted GOP-ers.)
Thank you Cookie.
I appreciate your willingness and ability to be reasonable and intellectually honest on this issue.
I am getting really tired of the faux outrage machine, but it helps when someone unexpectedly steps up.
Robert Cook, it might be okay, if Trump had a cogent, detailed, specific, substantive gripe with the intelligence agencies over their Russia conclusions. If Trump wanted a platform for that, he'd be given a week of 2-hour specials on the Fox News Channel.
If Trump wanted to "dispute our intelligence agencies" on the merits, and if Trump had people from within the intelligence agencies to say that there has been a massive error in any national conclusion as to what their considered opinions are, that might be a very different situation than what we have.
Because what we have, is near-complete unanimity among all intelligence professionals, versus a series of rotten, vaguely worded, poorly-supported @realDonaldTrump tweets.
I don't think you can play the "rational judgment" card here. If you want to do that, you -- and Donald Trump -- have to do a hell of a lot better job of it.
The President says nice things about Putin and soft-peddles the Russian hacking story.
Treason!!!!!
A head FBI agent discusses how to prevent a duly elected President from taking office.
Crickets.
Cookie! Very well reasoned.
LLR tacit approval of the treason comment.
Good for Cookie, whose anti-Trump credentials are impeccable.
One thing I can say for Comrade LLR--he never disappoints.
Unexpected reversal from Cook. Listen to Schumer et all and you'll be on the right. The right isn't very unified except by disgust.
Among the first things to be disgusted by: cheap grace.
In today's politics the role of the Military-Industrial Complex is played by the Media-Academic-Bureaucratic Complex.
Actually, this might be the last gasp of the Trump-deranged. If this doesn't stick, what else have they got?
It's very easy to do homophone typos.... but I just learned recently that Thomas Jefferson used and defended the apostrophe in the possessive pronoun "its."
Well, Jefferson was wrong.
Richard Epstein, and I suppose George Will, hate Trump because Trump is ruining the role of the expert.
Epstein is a genuine insightful expert but very wedded to some conventional economic reasoning that might be wrong, in particular on trade between large groups, and on the function of conventional politeness.
The Q-anon theory (the conspiracy theory) posits a conflict between the US military, especially its Intelligence establishment, and the "civilian" agencies, the CIA, FBI, etc.
The military instance of the "deep state" is supposed to have persuaded Trump to run and is his principal backer in their reaction against degenerate totalitarian plots by the Washington establishment.
It's hers. Sums it up nicely.
The problem with the idea of a military-industrial complex as a secret director of US policy is that it was ever just a small part of the US economy, and was growing ever smaller every year since the 1950s.
If such a thing still matters, it is by now a tertiary center of power, as there is immensely more money in other sectors heavily influenced by government, or that have powerful incentives to influence government. Many of these are foreign.
"Because what we have, is near-complete unanimity among all intelligence professionals...."
Unanimity of what? Opinion? Speculation? Agreed-upon talking points?
Where is the proof the Russians somehow fixed our election? What is the supposed method by which they accomplished this? By releasing a bunch of private DNC emails that made the DNC look bad? And, loyal Democrats, being so disgusted at the DNC's shady doings, voted for Trump, or abstained, costing Hillary her rightful victory?
I mean, who among the voting public paid any attention to the DNC emails?
Until the "unanimous" spy agencies present irrefutable documentation proving the Russians--with or without Trump's collusion--somehow threw our election to Trump, I say its bullshit.
"The problem with the idea of a military-industrial complex as a secret director of US policy is that it was ever just a small part of the US economy, and was growing ever smaller every year since the 1950s.
"If such a thing still matters, it is by now a tertiary center of power, as there is immensely more money in other sectors heavily influenced by government, or that have powerful incentives to influence government. Many of these are foreign."
These are all part of the mix. The "military-industrial complex" is an archaic term, but I use it for want of a more applicable one to refer to the complex of powerful corporate and government actors whose agendas are to aggrandize their wealth and power. This complex, whatever it may be best called, is hardly a "tertiary center of power." It is the center of power.
"Until the "unanimous" spy agencies present irrefutable documentation proving the Russians--with or without Trump's collusion--somehow threw our election to Trump, I say its bullshit.
I'm impressed Cookie.
My view is that many foreign countries intelligence services hacked into Hillary's server and possibly the DNC and RNC servers. We also tried (and with some likely degree of success) to hack into other country's servers. This is not news. It's modern espionage.
I am shocked! Shocked, I tell you that espionage is going on in this world. It all started with Trump in the minds of the deranged anti-Trumpers.
Freder Frederson said...
Actually you did call it treason. So cry me a river. And Bush was cherry picking his intelligence to justify invading Iraq.
Some possible explanations why Bush invaded Iraq --
Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade and much of his nation's wealth not on providing for the Iraqi people but on developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them."
-- President Bill Clinton (State of the Union Address), Jan. 27, 1998
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators.""Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001
Chuck said..."Because what we have, is near-complete unanimity among all intelligence professionals...."
Can you please list those intelligence professionals and point to the evidence?
I ask for the list of individuals because the ones that come to mind are Brennan, Clapper, Comey, ....
I ask for the evidence because I don’t trust Brennan, Clapper, Comey, ...
Cook, that is my operating theory too, my quibble is that the "military" and even the "industrial" parts of it are very much off.
There is an obvious split in the US economy in terms of who benefits from trends in governance. The old school industrial-commercial interests vs "pure money". This is not a new split. Henry Ford hated "Wall Street". But "Wall Street" matters much more today than Ford and all its ilk.
This is a real thing, speaking from inside an industrial enterprise.
... and, I have more possible reasons if you need to see more.
On MSNBC, where illiterate histrionic analogies litter coverage every day, a contributor compared Donald Trump’s meeting in Helsinki with Vladimir Putin to Pearl Harbor and Kristallnacht, just to be safe.
Social media is teeming with similar hyperbole — “treason,” “traitor,” etc . — and not just from anonymous trolls. It’s difficult to accept anyone with a working brain actually believes this rhetoric, and they certainly don’t act like it. But if well-heeled pundits keep telling everyone The Fourth Reich is imminent before retiring to their townhouses in Capitol Hill every night, some people might actually start believing them. And if email phishing and hacking is truly comparable to Pearl Harbor or Kristallnacht or the Holocaust there’s really no reason why those accepting these analogies shouldn’t also support military reprisals abroad and coups at home.
-David Harsanyi
Cook @ 10:18 - thank you.
We have no way of knowing what actual "intelligence professionals" know, because they are not talking. To get the real mccoy on anything actually professional you need the unfiltered opinions of the middle ranks. This is true of most organizations.
In the best organizations, the upper leadership is capable of digesting and using this information. In the worst the middle ranks are told what to think, and deny reality. The usual case is that the top ignores the middle, but they let them get on with things anyway.
"Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade and much of his nation's wealth not on providing for the Iraqi people but on developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them."
-- President Bill Clinton (State of the Union Address), Jan. 27, 1998
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"No one has done what Saddam Hussein has done, or is thinking of doing. He is producing weapons of mass destruction, and he is qualitatively and quantitatively different from other dictators.""Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001"
All lies.
I may have a copy of that book. But I still haven't opened up all the book boxes from when I moved here 20 years ago...
I don’t often agree with Cook, but he’s got this right.
Trump should believe Clapper, Brennan, Rice, Comey, Strzok and the othe “intelligence” Obots? Really?
Press conferences are the foundation for treason? Really? Trump should not have relented. He continues to expose the abject stupidity and moral depravity of his opponents.
Here is a great analysis of the press conference by Angelo Codevilla, who is actually qualified to offer it: https://amgreatness.com/2018/07/17/diplomacy-101-vs-politics-writ-small/
Robert Cook:
Have you read the Duelfer report? Famously it states that there were no WMD stockpiles when we invaded. It also states some other things that didn't get as much play. You might not think they justified preemptive war, and at this point I'd have to agree. Still, some findings were quite interesting.
Let's just say that I personally, as a scientist would love to keep tularemia samples in my personal fridge at home, but sadly we've got OSHA and other killjoy bureaucracies that frown upon that.
As for your 7:28 comment: Disagree on "fuck our intelligence agencies"; as for the rest, well said.
It is past time for Brennan t recognize that the way to oppose policies you don't like is to work to elect policy-makers you do like. Or to run for office yourself. But to snipe from the sidelines, especially with the supposed weight of the U.S. Intelligence community behind him, is cheap. And unpersuasive, except to the already convinced. The media like to push him front and center, but they, like Brennan, need first of all to accept Trump's victory a year and a half ago. Their continued belief they can force him to step down is delusional. Even more delusional is the belief that Hillary will somehow take his place. Why should anyone take these people seriously?
Original Mike said...
Chuck said..."Because what we have, is near-complete unanimity among all intelligence professionals...."
Can you please list those intelligence professionals and point to the evidence?
I ask for the list of individuals because the ones that come to mind are Brennan, Clapper, Comey, ....
I ask for the evidence because I don’t trust Brennan, Clapper, Comey, ..
What horseshit! Seriously, did you even think before writing that? Donald Trump is the President of the Freaking United States! If Trump has a very good claim that re-casts the entire Russian-hacking narrative, he can order a report, declassify whatever he wants, etc., etc., etc.
Instead, we get Trump doing Tweets and FNC interviews where he talks about what "they say" or what he has "heard" or what he "reads." Like Trump is just some guy in a bar in Manhattan at 8:30 at night talking about what he saw watching TV the day before.
Trump is the President! If he has an important case to make, then make it! If Trump disagrees with General Mattis, and Dan Coats and Gina Haspel then he should just say so! I don't want to see this get batted around on another very special Deep State edition of "Hannity." I want all of the heads of the intelligence agencies in front of a special joint committee in congress, followed the next day by a four-hour press conference with Trump and those same intel chiefs. Answering all of the hardest questions together. Everybody on the same exact page.
hombre said...
I don’t often agree with Cook, but he’s got this right.
Trump should believe Clapper, Brennan, Rice, Comey, Strzok and the othe “intelligence” Obots? Really?
...
No. Trump should believe Dan Coats. Or Trump should fire Dan Coats, and explain the cause for the firing. Or Dan Coats should resign, and write a book about why he resigned.
Imagine how confused today's snowflakes will be when they read the histories of the 60's and 70's and discover the Left used to vilify the CIA and FBI. WTF?
that will go down the memory hole, mark felt never went after the panthers and the sds, only Nixon, of course that's awkward since he faced prison for the former until Reagan pardoned him,
I didn’t ask about Trump, Chuck. The problem is I am being asked to accept on faith the pronouncements of people I have come to mistrust. I am to believe Russia meddled in the election because John Brennan says so?
Or maybe not. Maybe trustworthy people have provided convincing evidence and I missed (or forgot) it. It’s a reasonable request.
Civil war, baby. Bring it. Let's finish this one way or the other, but it needs to be finished. The forces of darkness are either defeated or they march over the earth (Indiana Jones reference intended, but not tongue in cheek intended). We really are at the point where it's us or them. I vote us. JPG
JPS said...
Robert Cook:
Have you read the Duelfer report? Famously it states that there were no WMD stockpiles when we invade
How many WMDs make up a "stockpile"? Because many people saw WMD's, to be specific, chemical weapons in Iraq after we invaded. Including, for example, my son. Who I have no reason to disbelieve.
JPG:
The hell with that. No, for as long as it can be avoided, I hope forever.
I'm thinking of David Hines' excellent essay on David Burrough's "Days of Rage":
"This is the fantasy of how violence works: you smite your enemies in a grand and glorious cleansing because of course you’re better.
"Grand and glorious smiting isn’t actually how violence works. I’ve worked a few places that have had serious political violence. And I’m not sure how to really describe it so people get it.
"This is a stupid comparison, but here: imagine that one day Godzilla walks through your town. The next day, he does it again. And he keeps doing it. Some days he steps on more people than others. That’s it. That’s all he does: trudging through your town, back and forth. Your town’s not your town now; it’s The Godzilla Trudging Zone. That’s kind of what it’s like."
https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
Ditto on civil wars.
You dont want that.
But one side keeps pushing the other into what they perceive as a corner.
Hence the incredible rate of gun sales.
Gospace:
I have no reason to disbelieve your son either, and should have worded that more precisely. I was trying to sidestep all the old, tired arguments about operational weapons versus old stuff, not maintained, set aside and perhaps forgotten. They absolutely had chemical weapons, we've had soldiers injured trying to demilitarize them. The goalpost-shifting included, Chemical doesn't count; or, Eh, just a few rusty old shells!
But if I stipulate that there was neither a particularly dangerous arsenal nor a drive to compile one, I am left the findings of Duelfer et al. inspectors that there were seeds of a bioweapons program to be reconstituted once the inspections were halted and the sanctions were lifted. That was the plan. Whether we needed to go to war to head that off is the subject for a different furious argument, but the WMD concerns weren't, pace Robert Cook, "All lies."
"It is past time for Brennan t recognize that the way to oppose policies you don't like is to work to elect policy-makers you do like."
I think that we are going to ultimately find that Brennan indeed was trying to elect policy makers he liked (Crooked Hillary, who probably would have kept him at the CIA, if he had wanted to stay, at least until she could sell the position for sufficiently enough cash). His people, along with the FBI, were essentially the ones who determined that the Russians had hacked the DNC server based on information from DNC contractor Crowdstrike.
Why should anyone have confidence in the U.S. intelligence community in view of the following colossal and strategic failures?
a. Failed to predict that China would enter the Korean War against the U.S.
b. Botched an invasion of Cuba at the Bay of Pigs
c. Failed to predict that Russia would install missiles in Cuba in 1962
d. Failed to predict the invasion by Iraq of Kuwait in 1990
e. Failed to predict the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991
f. Failed to predict the killing of 2000 Americans by Muslim terrorists on 9/11
g. Failed to know that Iraq did NOT have weapons of mass destruction in 2003
All these things caught the United States flatfooted and our intelligence community asleep.
Actually, we all should be ashamed of our intelligence agencies for their many failures to serve us. But the last failure, their attempt to keep Donald Trump from office has given us the only thing for which to be grateful.
Hillary Clinton is not president.
Chuck said...
"... if Trump had a cogent, detailed, specific, substantive gripe with the intelligence agencies over their Russia conclusions...
If Trump wanted to "dispute our intelligence agencies" on the merits, and if Trump had people from within the intelligence agencies to say that there has been a massive error in any national conclusion as to what their considered opinions are, that might be a very different situation than what we have."
How in God's name can you have a substantive, specific, detailed debate when the only "argument" presented on the one side is "Everyone agrees!"?
There's literally no factual claim to dispute, just a conclusion.
We're just supposed to trust that people like Brennan and Strzok reached unbiased conclusions.
Pass.
Original Mike said...
I didn’t ask about Trump, Chuck. The problem is I am being asked to accept on faith the pronouncements of people I have come to mistrust. I am to believe Russia meddled in the election because John Brennan says so?
Or maybe not. Maybe trustworthy people have provided convincing evidence and I missed (or forgot) it. It’s a reasonable request.
You are supposed to believe that Russia meddled in the election because Trump's Director of National Intelligence says so, and because Trump's Department of Justice has indicted a dozen Russian intelligence officers for meddling in the election, and because it is now common knowledge that Russia does this kind of thing in elections throughout the Western world and has been doing it for some time.
Blogger Michael said...
In today's politics the role of the Military-Industrial Complex is played by the Media-Academic-Bureaucratic Complex.
In the same speech where he warned of the military-industrial complex (Eisenhower's Farewell Address) he also warned of the scientific-technological elite:
"In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been over shadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite."
”[Brennan’s] people, along with the FBI, were essentially the ones who determined that the Russians had hacked the DNC server based on information from DNC contractor Crowdstrike.”
There, in one sentence, is my problem with accepting this story based soley on appeal to authority. From the behavior of the FBI and DOJ, they are clearly hiding something.
clint said...
Chuck said...
"... if Trump had a cogent, detailed, specific, substantive gripe with the intelligence agencies over their Russia conclusions...
If Trump wanted to "dispute our intelligence agencies" on the merits, and if Trump had people from within the intelligence agencies to say that there has been a massive error in any national conclusion as to what their considered opinions are, that might be a very different situation than what we have."
How in God's name can you have a substantive, specific, detailed debate when the only "argument" presented on the one side is "Everyone agrees!"?
There's literally no factual claim to dispute, just a conclusion.
We're just supposed to trust that people like Brennan and Strzok reached unbiased conclusions.
Pass.
This may the dumbest goddamned argument I've ever had on the Althouse comments pages, which is saying an awful lot.
If it is not true, as current Director of National Intelligence Dan Coats says (along with far too many other intelligence officials to name), that Russians engaged in concerted meddling in the 2016 election, the current President of the United States can order/commission a full report detailing the opposing viewpoint. Trump could mobilize the Executive Branch to accomplish that.
But guess what; Trump accepts the conclusion that Russia meddled in the election!
Trump's walk-back corrective statement from yesterday says that: "I accept our intelligence community’s conclusion that Russia’s meddling in the 2016 election took place...”
WTF? What are you guys even trying to argue about at this point? I mean, it is true that I don't think that Trump really even believes his own handcrafted statement in that regard. I personally think that Pompeo and Pence sat Trump down on Tuesday and suggested that they needed to walk back what Trump had said on Monday. And that Trump is still seething about all of it. But that's Trump's problem.
You Trumpists seem to be trying to argue in defense of what Trump said on Monday, when in fact Trump was reversing himself on Tuesday.
”You are supposed to believe that Russia meddled in the election because Trump's Director of National Intelligence says so, and because Trump's Department of Justice has indicted a dozen Russian intelligence officers for meddling in the election, and because it is now common knowledge that Russia does this kind of thing in elections throughout the Western world and has been doing it for some time.”
I actually don’t have a problem with the milquetoast claim that “Russia meddled”. As you say, they do it everywhere all the time. I have a big problem with the meltdown over “meddling” which has gotten dangerous.
Chuck wrote: “No, Trump should believe Dan Coats….” Oh, the Dan Coats, politician, who feels constrained to hold forth publicly contradicting his boss and his President? That Dan Coats? The Dan Coats who “personally” investigated “Russian meddling” so as not to rely on residual Obots or DNC contractors? (Lol.) That Dan Coats?
Chuck has reached a point where his confirmation bias outweighs his legal training. There is only one way to view this silliness, “Bad Trump.” Never mind the historical bias and unreliability of the intelligence agencies.
Here is a great analysis by Angelo Codevilla, who is qualified to offer it: https://amgreatness.com/2018/07/17/diplomacy-101-vs-politics-writ-small/.
Chuck is “politics writ small.”
The problem with the idea of a military-industrial complex as a secret director of US policy is that it was ever just a small part of the US economy, and was growing ever smaller every year since the 1950s.
Which explains, however indirectly, my decidedly unimpressive salary and lack of a decent healthcare plan.
If the "evidence" is ever seen publicly, I am putting this down right now- it will consist not of hard facts, but of analysis that it is "likely" to be the Russians. In other words, there won't be e-mail chains or phone conversations of the Russians saying they are doing this, but only the "fingerprints" found in the Guccifer 2.0 files that he released directly, and in the "fingerprints" found in the files released by Wikileaks- it will all just be the same report that Clapper and Brennan released during the period after the election but before the inauguration. At best, the Mueller evidence will also consist of an unnamed informant/s, who can't be named because of national security interests, who gave Mueller the names of the GRU officers and statements about what those officers did.
"How many WMDs make up a 'stockpile?' Because many people saw WMD's, to be specific, chemical weapons in Iraq after we invaded. Including, for example, my son. Who I have no reason to disbelieve."
The WMD found in Iraq after our illegal invasion were the lost dregs of the former and largely destroyed WMD stockpiles Iraq had developed many years before. They were not new, not recently developed, manufactured or hidden, not knowingly withheld from the UN Weapons Inspectors. They were simply inventories of old and deteriorating weapons that had been forgotten.
These unknown, neglected, and decrepit weapons deposits were not what Bush/Cheney warned us about, hammering it into our heads that Hussein was on the verge of killing us all! if we didn't act first. In fact, what Bush/Cheney were really trying to get into our heads was the idea that Hussein was developing nukes by which he could destroy America,(though why Hussein would have wanted that was never explained), therefore, the ludicrous "smoking gun in the shape of a mushroom cloud" baloney.
The entire propaganda campaign waged to compel our approval of (or at least, concession to) their war--a disaster that continues to pay dividends--was, yes, all lies.
@etbass:
Good list.
Lets not forget that the Russians actually told our FBI that the Tsarnayevs would attempt a terrorist attack in the US.
Our crack FBI did nothing about it.
QE EFFING D.
And note that Chuck is nothing here, but arguing by authority- no skepticism is allowed.
Hypothetical below:
"Chuck is a pedophile. How do we know? Because people say he is."
I am just about the total opposite of Robert Cook. I am sure he abhors each and every one of my positions. So I come with clean hands when I say he is absolutely right in everything he said.
The Deep State and the permanent Duoply establishment must destroy President Trump. They will do whatever it takes aided by their media mminions and Republican Quislings.they want to keep us involved in endless wars. They have stopped every attempt by the President from bringing our troops home. From Syria. From Korea. From Germany. At least they have stopped it so far.
However the President has laid the ground work. An agreement by Kim might bring our boys home from Korea as pRt of the deal. If Germany refuses to meet their spending commitments we could take our boys home next year as we dissolve NATO and put America first. Now we can reach an agreement with Putin in Syria and get our boys out of harms way.
No more endless wars. No more nation building. No more open ended never ending occupation.
America first.
More Chuck: “...Trump's Department of Justice has indicted a dozen Russian intelligence officers for meddling in the election, and because it is now common knowledge that Russia does this kind of thing in elections throughout the Western world and has been doing it for some time.
Mueller is “Trump’s DOJ?” Who knew? How about the timing of those indictments, Chuck? When do you expect convictions, Chuck?
“... now common knowledge....” Is there anyone on the planet who hasn’t known Russia pulls this shit? Trump and the mediaswine aren’t talking about the usual. They are talking about, “Oh, God, the Russkies sabotaged Hillary,” aren’t they.
The propaganda war about WMD is equaled by the propaganda lies about poor Syrian woman and children being gassed by Assad when he had no motive to do it.
It is the Deep State and the neocons ginning up another endless war.
I'm not a Trumper and I'm not a never-Trumper. I am what you might call a sometimes Trumper - supporting him when he does smart things (pulling out of the Paris and Iran deals, appointing great judges and Justices, deregulating like crazy, cutting corporate taxes) and opposing him when he does stupid things (denying that the GRU engaged in covert activities during the 2016 election, his entire Russian strategy). He gets an incomplete on his trade strategy - we'll see in a couple of years whether it works (which I define as increasing GDP growth) or is a disaster. So, yes, his enemies have piled on to his really stupid comment that the KGB is more trustworthy and more believable than the DNI he appointed, Dan Coats. Talk about self-inflicted wounds.
"'The problem with the idea of a military-industrial complex as a secret director of US policy is that it was ever just a small part of the US economy, and was growing ever smaller every year since the 1950s.'
"Which explains, however indirectly, my decidedly unimpressive salary and lack of a decent healthcare plan."
It's never the workers who reap the profits of their work, but always those they're working for, the owners of the workers' work product...along with investors and partners and others who will derive money or power (or both) or other benefits from that work product.
"The propaganda war about WMD is equaled by the propaganda lies about poor Syrian woman and children being gassed by Assad when he had no motive to do it."
Yes.
Honestly asking: why are we still in Afghanistan? What is our objective there and what is our plan for achieving it?
I believe I know what the official position is on this, and I find the official position unsatisfactory in terms of providing a good reason for staying. I therefore advocate total withdrawal.
But I'm wondering what other commentators here think.
concerted meddling in the 2016 election
Meddling!! They meddled!! How can we let someone get away with ......meddling!!!????
Cook: "The WMD found in Iraq after our illegal invasion were the lost dregs of the former and largely destroyed WMD stockpiles Iraq had developed many years before."
Chemical weapons stockpiles in Iraq were transferred to Syria in the days and weeks prior to the war. Some of us saw that in real time.
Hussein sent aircraft and patrol craft to Iran for "safekeeping" as well.
There were other pre-war shenanigans as well.
It's never the workers who reap the profits of their work, but always those they're working for, the owners of the workers' work product...along with investors and partners and others who will derive money or power (or both) or other benefits from that work product.
I haven't encountered rhetoric like that since my last conversation (many years ago) with a Marxist political science professor. Impressive, comrade! What's next, a rousing rendition of "The Internationale" -- in Spanish?
In my previous post to which you responded I was speaking tongue-in-cheek, actually. In truth, and a paid employee of the Military-Industry Complex, I am dyed in the wool Kulak and capitalist roader. Maybe even a wrecker, too.
"Honestly asking: why are we still in Afghanistan? What is our objective there and what is our plan for achieving it?"
It may be simply: we don't know how to leave.
What I wonder is: Why did we invade Afghanistan in the first place? As a response to 9/11, it made no logical sense, as was made clear when we stayed after bin Laden and his small band of gangsters quickly fled the country.
The answer to both questions may be: it's a handy reason to keep armed US military forces active near Russia. Russia, even if it has no intentions of fighting us militarily, is a threat to our global hegemony and monopoly access to resources. If Russia and China side with each other against us, we're fucked. We're trying to surround Russia with military forces that belong to us or our allies, (including NATO forces).
"Chemical weapons stockpiles in Iraq were transferred to Syria in the days and weeks prior to the war. Some of us saw that in real time."
Really? What did you see?
You Trumpists seem to be trying to argue in defense of what Trump said on Monday, when in fact Trump was reversing himself on Tuesday.
Trump says loose, unpresidential shit all the time.
But here's the thing: Imagine hearing, from the minute that you won the election for President of the United States, that it was illegitimate in some way. First, it was that the Russians might have tampered with the votes. Recounts didn't bear that out. Then it was you were in collusion with Russia somehow. You meet privately with the head of the FBI, and the next day CNN is reporting that you were briefed about Russian meddling. Everyone hears about some made up story that you peed in a hotel with Russian hookers. The people putting this information out- you don't know who they are, necessarily ---start releasing transcripts of your private conversations with heads of state. The news outlets report on it as you, as president, have no right to discuss classified information or meet with foreign leaders. Soon they are on a daily mission to prove you are colluding with Russia. They bring in an investigator and make your AG stand down. They say if you aren't guilty, you wouldn't mind having some prosecutor rooting around in your business. They call you treasonous.
It would start to drive you crazy, right? I know it would start to drive me crazy.
I don't know about that chemical weapons nonsense, but Robert Cook sees some things very clearly, things that lots of other people miss. don't typically agree with his ideological context, but an honest broker is he. something about those intellectually rigorous and honest universalist communist types. they see clearly, even if their prescriptions are icky.
Arriba, parias de la Tierra.
En pie, famélica legión.
Atruena la razón en marcha,
es el fin de la opresión.
Del pasado hay que hacer añicos,
legión esclava en pie a vencer,
el mundo va a cambiar de base,
los nada de hoy todo han de ser.
Agrupémonos todos,
en la lucha final.
El género humano
es la internacional!
La la, la, la la la, la la la la la la! {to the tune of The Internationale)
Reasons to stay in Afghanistan -
Keep Afghanistan away from Pakistan/China. These are the real backers of the Taliban et al. If the US leaves Afghanistan will be a "peaceful" protectorate of Pakistan. Pakistan will have "strategic depth" (the Pakis/ISI really did think this), and would be in a much better position vis a vis India, which the Chinese see as a threat.
Afghanistan is also a good place from which to threaten most of Central Asia. Nice spot for a "deniable" Paki/ISI airbase for use by Chinese.
It is the "great game", still. The players are switched around though.
The Iraq war started with invasion of Kuwait. The ceasefire persisted under Clinton. The war ended with Bush. It recurred and metastasized under Obama.
MayBee said...
"You Trumpists seem to be trying to argue in defense of what Trump said on Monday, when in fact Trump was reversing himself on Tuesday."
Trump says loose, unpresidential shit all the time.
But here's the thing: Imagine hearing, from the minute that you won the election for President of the United States, that it was illegitimate in some way. First, it was that the Russians might have tampered with the votes. Recounts didn't bear that out. Then it was you were in collusion with Russia somehow. You meet privately with the head of the FBI, and the next day CNN is reporting that you were briefed about Russian meddling. Everyone hears about some made up story that you peed in a hotel with Russian hookers. The people putting this information out- you don't know who they are, necessarily ---start releasing transcripts of your private conversations with heads of state. The news outlets report on it as you, as president, have no right to discuss classified information or meet with foreign leaders. Soon they are on a daily mission to prove you are colluding with Russia. They bring in an investigator and make your AG stand down. They say if you aren't guilty, you wouldn't mind having some prosecutor rooting around in your business. They call you treasonous.
It would start to drive you crazy, right? I know it would start to drive me crazy.
Yes; Trump "says loose, unpresidential shit all the time." He should stop it.
And it was President George W. Bush about whom it was said that his election was "stolen." That it was a 5-4 Supreme Court that installed him as president against the will of the people.
I sure didn't say anything negative about President Bush. Moreover, it didn't make President Bush "crazy." He ran a stable, functioning administration. With personnel turnover that was a tiny fraction of what we see with Trump.
There were never any tapes of Bush impersonating somebody else on a reporter's audiotape. No three marriages, and multiple bankruptcies and a mountain of civil lawsuits, and tax returns that no one could see, and nothing like the history of being a Birther, a Truther and a Vaxxer.
buwaya:
Interesting. Not bad. But not, IMO, a compelling reason to maintain an active military presence. I don't think our presence and operations in Afghanistan are keeping that country away from Pakistan and China, much less keeping those nations out of Afghanistan. I seriously do not believe that Afghanistan as a protectorate of Pakistan, or China, or Pakistan/China jointly, poses a geopolitical threat to the U.S. Rather, I think it will prove to be a thorn in the side of Pakistan and/or China just as it has been a thorn in the side of every extra-territorial power since time immemorial. Whatever geographical strategic depth Pakistan might gain from the arrangement is functionally useless. Depth from what, and for what purpose? War with India, or Iran -- both of which are unlikely, and even if such wars should occur ... so what? A place to threaten Central Asia? Again, so what. That's Russia's Near Abroad, let Russia deal with it.
In any case, and whatever the merits, your brief for staying in Afghanistan is a prescription for endless war.
The "Great Game" in its 19th and early 20th century conceptualization is an archaism. Geography is of diminishing importance. The Great Game of the 21st Century is mostly, and most decisively, being played in cyberspace and in the corridors of international finance.
Afghanistan has been a festering shithole since the days of Rudyard zKipling.
It is part of the Great Game that the Imperialists and their spirtual children the Neocons revel in as they spill the blood of Trump voters to enhance their. Prestige and status. It is a sordid game and nothing new.
Watch them on CNN as they gleefully recount how we are fighting and dying all over the world In service to some illusory claim of American prestige. Watch Lindsey Graham and the spectral claw of the Songbird in his last days that he devotes to promoting a War with Russia.
It is sickening.
President Trump is our only hope of preventing a disaster. We need to stand by him.
That said, I do approve of massively disproportionate and targeted punitive military strikes against Afghanistan, or anywhere else, that harbors active -- emphasis on "active" -- enemies of the United States. I'm very British Empire-oriented in that sense.
concerted meddling in the 2016 election
Next the Russians will be kibitzing.
Buwaya as Roughcoat correctly says your analysis is so 19th century.
I hope China does try to take them ov. Those Pasthun assholes will drain them dry of blood and treasure. If it is a problem for India than it is their problem.
America first.
Afghanistan has been a festering shithole since the days of Rudyard Kipling.
More like, since the days of Alexander and the Achemaenid kings before him. Alexander spent more years (and lives) in Bactria trying (with limited success) trying to subdue its warlike inhabitants than he did in the conquest of the Persian Empire.
I do believe in vengeance, payback, and punishment. But not occupation and nation building.
You could also read Witness by Whittaker Chambers who also said that our government was infiltrated by communists. There was a whole trial with Alger Hiss who went to jail for perjury. And then in 2007 all the Soviet documents were released and it turns out Whittaker Chambers was right about everything
Blogger Chuck said...
You are supposed to believe that Russia meddled in the election because Trump's Director of National Intelligence says so, and because Trump's Department of Justice has indicted a dozen Russian intelligence officers for meddling in the election.
Actually I do believe Russians meddle in elections, just the way that we meddled in Israel's elections and countries have been doing since the very first election thousands of years ago.
In other words: Big Friggin' Deal
As for the indictment: That's not a good argument for you. Remember Mueller's indictment of Concord Management? Made all the papers because like the DOJ indictment of the Russian officers, it was a PR move. Mueller never figured anyone would answer the indictment in court. So what's the risk?
But when they did, Mueller start asking for delays because he wasn't ready. The dumb ass forgot that an indictment means "you're ready".
And it was President George W. Bush about whom it was said that his election was "stolen." That it was a 5-4 Supreme Court that installed him as president against the will of the people
It was a 7-2 decision that threw out the Florida Supreme court's attempt to cherry-pick votes from Gore-heavy district. The 5-4 decision was on whether sufficient time remained to resolve the situation.
And then in 2007 all the Soviet documents were released and it turns out Whittaker Chambers was right about everything.
It was 1997, if you're referring to the Venona files. Which proved conclusively that Soviet infiltration was far, far worse than anyone ever claimed or imagined.
Because what we have, is near-complete unanimity among all intelligence professionals ...
A year ago you might have posted something similar quoting a myriad of FBI officials.
Probably wouldn't have the guts to do that anymore, would you?
Chuck, the leftmediaswine and other Resistance Trolls insist on claiming “Russia meddled in the elections” instead of “Russia meddled in the campaigns.” One is not the same as the other. Everybody meddles in campaigns. So what?
Obama meddled in campaigns in Israel and the Ukraine. Are the lefty trolls upset? I believe America is sick of these subversive assholes who present a much greater threat to the Republic than the Russians.
This must be a coordinated effort to drown Trump in shit to the point where he can't move or speak, where he is immobilized. - Cookie
You're just now getting this?
Welcome to the party, pal.
One problem with Afghanistan is that we helped locals do much of the (early) dirty work. If we split before they're secure, will we be able to use locals in the future? Or do they already assume we're perfidious?
Honestly asking: why are we still in Afghanistan?
Near as I can tell, bankrolling the opium industry.
The popular internet meme, I am reliably informed, is not the "Internationale" but the old Soviet Anthem.
Soviet Anthem
And it was President George W. Bush about whom it was said that his election was "stolen." That it was a 5-4 Supreme Court that installed him as president against the will of the people.
"
It was said, but it was like a starter kit compared to how constant their drumbeat is now. MSNBC was a really good news source back then. And CNN didn't have a new breaking story about Bush's stolen election every day for 18 months. And the FBI and CIA leadership wasn't leaking to the press or calling Bush treasonous. It was a practice run for what they've all become.
According to the Daily Beast, Trump was upset over the negative reactions to the the Helsinki Fiasco and his staff was trying to cover it up.
He stewed and dug in his heels for hours, resenting that he was widely portrayed as “weak” and having been “played” by Russian President Vladimir Putin, and that he wasn’t getting the kudos he felt he deserved.
Even some of his favorites on Fox News, often such a reliable pro-Trump partner, had panned him.
“Hint: Don’t use ‘strong and powerful’ to describe Putin’s denial re. election meddling,” Laura Ingraham—a Fox News host and top Trump ally who even interviewed during the presidential transition to be his White House press secretary—tweeted on Monday. “Use words ‘predictable and damaging to US-Russian relations’ to describe Russian meddling.”
So Mommy Laura told Donny that he had to be nice and speak properly by not saying bad words. Now Don-Don, smile for everybody, and don't use "strong and powerful" when talking about teacher Putin. Your a good boy, Donny, even when you lie about double negatives.
"Depth from what, and for what purpose?"
Indian airstrikes and strategic weapons. A place to base a counterstrike capability. A place to retreat to at need.
I think the ISI can keep it safe enough. After all they are who are making all the trouble. The Taliban is their proxy.
And any empire is in for "endless war". That's the nature of empires. Their borders are ever threatened by a vast array of enemies. The US has maintained the Pax Americana with endless small wars. The only way out of it is to end the Pax Americana and let someone else take over. There are terrible risks in getting off the tiger though.
As for the nature of power - money today is mainly in asset valuations which blow away at a hint of political uncertainty. I bet you can get Iranian property cheap right now. And cyber-whatever is meaningless if you show up at the server farms with a few truckloads of armed men. All of that is extremely fragile. One of these days something will happen to demonstrate just how fragile.
When we were in both Iraq and Afghanistan, we should have put real pressure on Iran. They allegedly paused their nuke distilling, perhaps anticipating something from us that never came.
and nothing like the history of being a Birther, a Truther and a Vaxxer.
When Bush was president, the Republicans were taking heat for protecting vaccine makers from lawsuits claiming they caused autism. Anti-Vax was the cool kid opinion of the day. Courts even ruled there was a link. Here's the Huffingtonpost reporting the Governement conceded - 0n 2009- that one family was due compensation for autism caused by vaccine.
I've never been an ant- vaxxer. But it was only a few years ago that *not* being anti-vax was against science.
Wait.
Trump has a history of being a Truther?
On Russian "meddling":
Seems to me Trump won because the white working-class vote turned out for him while the black vote failed to turn out for Hillary.
Oh, those traitorous black voters in league with Russia!
I have to give gadfly credit. Though he/she/xe continuously embarrasses him/herself, he/she does not lose heart and gamely, though ineffectively and more often laughably, tries tries again....
Well played gadfly.
A bit of comic respite from the "Smear Merchanting" of LLR Chuck, your mentor, is always appreciated.
Jim at: "You're just now getting this?"
Better late than never.
House passes resolution supporting ICE.
Democrats and LLR Chuck hardest hit.
As always.
Here's John McCain pandering to the anti-vax crowd in 2008.
McCain said, per ABC News’ Bret Hovell, that “It’s indisputable that (autism) is on the rise amongst children, the question is what’s causing it. And we go back and forth and there’s strong evidence that indicates that it’s got to do with a preservative in vaccines.”
By then there was pushback.
“Of course we’ve gotten used to Republican politicians ignoring science when it conflicts with the economic interests of their paymasters or the prejudices of their mullahs. But neither is true in this case. The best one can say for McCain’s behavior is that it marks him as a fool, willing to flap his jaw about important topics based on ignorance.”
But Oh my! Look how someone dared to talk about John McCain, American Hero!
And note that Chuck is nothing here, but arguing by authority- no skepticism is allowed.
Hypothetical below:
"Chuck is a pedophile. How do we know? Because people say he is."
First time I heard that, I discounted it. Numerous people have made the claim. I still think it may be false but where there is smoke.....
"That said, I do approve of massively disproportionate and targeted punitive military strikes against Afghanistan, or anywhere else, that harbors active -- emphasis on 'active' -- enemies of the United States. I'm very British Empire-oriented in that sense."
They're "active enemies" because we've invaded, occupied, and are attacking their country. We're the bad guys in this scenario.
Indian airstrikes and strategic weapons. A place to base a counterstrike capability. A place to retreat to at need.
I am not concerned about the course and outcome, whatever they may be, of a conflict between India and Pakistan. However, I cannot plausibly imagine a scenario in which a large portion of the Pakistani armed forces and/or population retreating into Afghanistan could find sanctuary there, either from India or from the inhabitants of that wretched land. Such an Anabasis would, I think, prove extremely costly to those undertaking it.
As for the necessity of great powers having to take military action as circumstances warrant: yes, of course. But I wasn't speaking in general terms. I was referring specifically to Afghanistan.
As for the fragility of money and "cyber-whatever": again, yes, to be sure. But there are no server farms of note in Afghanistan that require our protection, and no financial institutions or assets either.
As for preferring the Soviet anthem to The Internationale: Not this hoss. I don't care what the kids like.
Indian airstrikes and strategic weapons. A place to base a counterstrike capability. A place to retreat to at need.
Anyone else want to take up the cudgels on this one? Be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Me, I gotta boogie.
It's not pro-vax or anti-vax. Vaccines are part of a risk management protocol. They are not magical elixirs with perfect performance and without collateral damage. This is why vaccines are not, for example, distributed as dietary supplements, but with specified, limited purpose and quantities proportional to assessed risks and benefits.
What the Trump haters want is for some nut to assassinate Trump.
They may think they want that. They'd better hope it never comes to pass.
Because then all bets are off.
What the Trump haters want is for some nut to assassinate Trump.
They may think they want that. They'd better hope it never comes to pass.
Because then all bets are off.
7/18/18, 3:58 PM
Nope. Nothing will happen except splitting America even more, just like the Russians and Chinese want.
Right does not have organized criminals like anti-fa and the violent demonstrators.
Without organization and leadership, most you can do is protect yourself, for awhile.
The lady commie in New York wants protestors to shut down airports. Nobody on left saying it is a bad idea.
In sixties, some hippies blockaded the Army ammo upply(or something) in Oakland. Hell's angels showed up and beat the hell out of them. News people were there, sided with the H. A. Now, it is the left showing up and doing violence without many consequences. Get arrested, get off...
If Trump is seriously entertaining allowing Russian authorities to question former ambassador Michael McFaul, well then now we're talking stuff that sounds like treason.
I'll tell you what is treason: that congressman calling for an armed coup or maxine waters calling for harassment of Trump gov staff.
"Right does not have organized criminals like anti-fa and the violent demonstrators.
Without organization and leadership, most you can do is protect yourself, for awhile."
Nah. We got biker gangs made up of middle aged veterans and their friends. Antifa better stick to campuses.
We got biker gangs made up of middle aged veterans and their friends. Antifa better stick to campuses.
Yep, middle aged family men with homes, jobs and something to lose.
Do not under estimate antifa. A lot of pussy wanna-bes, but some serious violent bad guys there.
Fuckin' Weather Underground a bunch of young assholes doing bombs.
SLA hiding in bushes in Oakland shooting school superintendent.
Students for Democratic Society young people tearing shit up.
"This is the fantasy of how violence works: you smite your enemies in a grand and glorious cleansing because of course you’re better.
It really worries me to hear people (of Any side) talking about how, they're "Totally Ready for a civil war" because of their superior fighting skills and arms.
You know who was "Totally Ready for a civil war" because of their superior fighting skills and arms? South Carolina. Not everyone in the state, but enough people to turn the tide . People that were Convinced that the war would be over by august 1861, people Convinced that Their side would have a glorious cake walk. Guess what?
Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.
In a war between California and Texas (metaphorically), i don't know and i don't care who would win... I can certainly tell who would lose: America
readering: "If Trump is seriously entertaining allowing Russian authorities to question former ambassador Michael McFaul, well then now we're talking stuff that sounds like treason."
That is PRECISELY what the treaty ("Treaty with Russia on Mutual Legal Assistance in Criminal Matters") that the Clinton admin put in place in 1999 with Russia allows for.
PRECISELY.
Running tally of lefties who complained about Clinton putting this agreement in place which allows for the very activities that lefties claim is TREASON!!eleventy!11! today?
ZERO
Once again history is rewritten beginning each new day by our hapless little lefties and their self-identified Smear Merchant LLR henchmen.
It's really outrageous and alarming, this tsunami of people shouting "treason" at Trump for...what? Because he disputes our intelligence agencies? That does not fit the definition of treason. And besides, fuck our intelligence agencies!
Every so often this commentor hits a home run. This is one of those times.
I have respect for this commentor although we hold opposing viewpoints on many issues. He’s earned that regard honestly and over a considerable amount of time – which is several years in length.
In this specific instance I like it much that he doesn’t go along with what seems like the majority opinion of the Left on the treason/Trump issue. I call that intellectual courage and perhaps it should be noted when it occurs.
I especially like “fuck our intelligence agencies!” The Deep State should be alarming to all sides.
Another home run:
… but it[opposition to Bush] was like a starter kit compared to how constant their drumbeat is now. MSNBC was a really good news source back then. And CNN didn't have a new breaking story about Bush's stolen election every day for 18 months. And the FBI and CIA leadership wasn't leaking to the press or calling Bush treasonous. It was a practice run for what they've all become.
I am an old man. I remember well when CNN was first launched. It offered relatively straight, unalloyed news instead of the sterile, biased echo chamber of the big three (ABC/CBS/NBC). I loved having access to an independent 4th news channel. But CNN changed drastically over time.
Now all are an echo chamber, even FoxNews when they think they can do so safely and not alienate their viewer base – which is older and conservative. I never watch Shepard Smith but I’ll bet he’s condemning Trump over this issue.
They were not new, not recently developed, manufactured or hidden, not knowingly withheld from the UN Weapons Inspectors.
“They” — specifically nuclear technology with regard to developing nuclear weapons WMD — were too “hidden” and “knowingly withheld from the UN Weapons Inspectors” (plus they were as “new”, “recently developed” and “manufactured” as Saddam had been able to get away with).
In the aftermath of the Gulf War, as the UN sanctions and inspections regime was being applied to Iraq, Saddam Hussein directed that his chief nuclear scientist, Mahdi Obeidi hide critical components, documentation, and plans sufficient to quickly re-create Iraq's entire nuclear project (which Saddam clearly intended to do the moment the heat was off). Obeidi, valuing his skin, obeyed, burying his cache in his own backyard. All of which was an enormous violation of the UN Security Council resolutions.
Read about it in Mahdi Obeidi's own post-Iraq War story, The Bomb in My Garden: The Secrets of Saddam's Nuclear Mastermind (Kindle Edition, via the Althouse Amazon portal).
They "they" I am referring to are the degraded chemical weapons that were unearthed here and there in Iraq. The Bush administration claimed Iraq was continuing to produce such weapons. They were not.
As to there being 12-year old components of a nuclear weapons program buried in a a back yard, this is far from being an ongoing or quickly reconstituted nuclear weapons program that would pose any threat to the world.
In short, all that was actually found in Iraq were old, long-buried and mostly forgotten bits and pieces of the weapons that Iraq had largely destroyed many years before.
Which brings us again to the claims of the Bush/Cheney gangsters, who convinced many Americans that Saddam was a terrorist compatriot of bin Laden and Al Qaeda and would be capable and had intention of visiting great devastation on America very soon if we did not preemptively attack him first.
It was all a lie, and not even a very good or sensible one. Anyone paying attention could see it was simply a scare story. Unfortunately, many Americans don't pay attention, and particularly after the trauma of the 9/11 attacks, too many were scared to death and/or eager to strike back at anyone, so the crude and obvious propaganda worked on the scared, angry, and inattentive.
Which brings us again to the claims of the Bush/Cheney gangsters, who convinced many Americans that Saddam was a terrorist compatriot of bin Laden and Al Qaeda and would be capable and had intention of visiting great devastation on America very soon if we did not preemptively attack him first.
This is a lie. The Bush Doctrine was that we would act before threats became imminent. Cook tells this lie because it fits his image that only he is capable of pulling the wool back from over his eyes.
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