Phillips was entitled to a neutral decisionmaker who would give full and fair consideration to his religious objection as he sought to assert it in all of the circumstances in which this case was presented, considered, and decided. In this case the adjudication concerned a context that may well be different going forward in the respects noted above. However later cases raising these or similar concerns are resolved in the future, for these reasons the rulings of the Commission and of the state court that enforced the Commission’s order must be invalidated.Kennedy is joined by Roberts, Breyer, Alito, Kagan, and Gorsuch. Thomas writes a separate opinion concurring in part and concurring in the judgment. There's also a concurring opinion by Kagan that is joined by Breyer and one by Gorsuch that is joined by Alito. So that leaves Roberts as the one Justice who adds nothing to distinguish himself from Kennedy. There's a dissenting opinion by Ginsburg, joined by Sotomayor. I'm going to take on the various opinions and will update this post as I go along.
The outcome of cases like this in other circumstances must await further elaboration in the courts, all in the context of recognizing that these disputes must be resolved with tolerance, without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs, and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market.
ADDED: Gorsuch writes:
In the face of so much evidence suggesting hostility toward Mr. Phillips’s sincerely held religious beliefs, two of our colleagues have written separately to suggest that the Commission acted neutrally toward his faith when it treated him differently from the other bakers—or that it could have easily done so consistent with the First Amendment. See post, at 4–5, and n.4 (GINSBURG, J., dissenting); ante, at 2–3, and n. (KAGAN, J., concurring). But, respectfully, I do not see how we might rescue the Commission from its error....The "other bakers" referred to some other cases in which the Commission did not find a violation (such as where the baker refused to make a cake with an anti-same-sex-marriage message). Ginsburg and Kagan think Phillips was different because he discriminated against the person (on the basis of sexual orientation) as opposed to refusing to sell a particular sort of product. But, Gorsuch says, Phillips was rejecting selling the cake that celebrates same-sex marriage, regardless of who wanted to buy it. In fact, Phillips refused to sell the same-sex marriage cake to the mother of one of the grooms. And yet, how is a same-sex wedding cake different from an opposite-sex wedding cake? The cake is the same, but the baker knows how it's going to be used, and he refuses to sell because of that. Is that or isn't that a discrimination against a type of person? That's the big disagreement. That's all I'll say for now about the opinions of Gorsuch, Kagan, and Ginsburg). I'll update soon to tell you something about the Thomas opinion.
AND: Thomas (joined by Gorsuch) writes separately to talk about freedom of speech (as opposed to freedom of religion).
Phillips considers himself an artist. The logo for Masterpiece Cakeshop is an artist’s paint palate with a paintbrush and baker’s whisk. Behind the counter Phillips has a picture that depicts him as an artist painting on a canvas. Phillips takes exceptional care with each cake that he creates—sketching the design out on paper, choosing the color scheme, creating the frosting and decorations, baking and sculpting the cake, decorating it, and delivering it to the wedding.....
The Colorado Court of Appeals was wrong to conclude that Phillips’ conduct was not expressive because a reasonable observer would think he is merely complying with Colorado’s public-accommodations law. This argument would justify any law that compelled protected speech. And, this Court has never accepted it. From the beginning, this Court’s compelled-speech precedents have rejected arguments that “would resolve every issue of power in favor of those in authority.” Barnette, 319 U. S., at 636...
States cannot punish protected speech because some group finds it offensive, hurtful, stigmatic, unreasonable, or undignified. “If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.” Johnson, supra, at 414....
109 comments:
"The Commission’s hostility was inconsistent with the First Amendment’s guarantee that our laws be applied in a manner that is neutral toward religion."
However, the Commission's hostility was utterly and completely consistent with modern leftist thinking because, to the left, Christianity is the equivalent of nazi hate speech.
And let's face it, "religion" is far too general.
The Commission's hostility is not direct at "religion", it is directly solely at Christians
There's a Black Muslim bakery here in Oakland, CA. Requesting a gay wedding cake there would seriously test the legal fulcrum point of fidelity to First Amendment rights v. fidelity to Gay rights.......
Just sayin'.....
I thought the Supreme Court was formed to decide cases, to say what the law is.
This is pure legal hocus pocus, as they fail to decide the legal standard to be applied in this actual case and those to come.
I'll try on the legal standard- the Circuit Courts can now rule against religious people and we will deny cert.
Let's call it the 2nd Amendment rule of jurisprudence.
Shameful.
They sent the cake back to Colorado with the caution that the Civil Rights Commission should not let anyone see them spitting in the batter next time.
Ah,ha. Finally a SCOTUS opinion admits that the separation of Church and State ideal does not mean that the State must eliminate the Church from life every chance it gets.
The best part of this decision is it should slow down the use of threats of law suits against local governments (and budget bankruptcy) if they dare accept that religious morality expressions have a place in human life.
More Fairness breaking out all over.
" ...and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market."
I just don't see what indignity is shown by saying "I'm sorry. My religious beliefs do not allow me to decorate a cake with that message." I assume a lot of requests for certain decorations are refused. If you want a cake with a giant pink dick on it, you can get it, but not from everyone. You also can't buy a dildo from just any toy store. It's not an idignity, but I would say that forcing a religious baker to violate his beliefs for a few dollars would be. In fact, that was partially the motivation of the request to this particular baker - to show him and his religion an indignity, and they seemed to relish it.
Thomas wrote a brilliant concurrence pointing out that the correct conclusion following Supreme Court precedent is that bakers have an artistic expression free speech right not to make wedding cakes for same sex marriages. Gorsuch wisely joined it.
Gorsuch wrote a nice concurrence, joined by Alito, pointing out that Breyer and Kagan are full of sh!t in their "concurrence", and that there's no legitimate way the CA CCR could allow bakers to refuse to make anti-gay cakes, while forcing Christians to make SSM cakes.
Kennedy wrote "hey idiots, stop being so obvious", directed at the CO CCR. Hopefully he will retire, and let another Gorsuch get appointed, so that next time we'll have 5-4 saying "no, you can't force Christians to pretend homosexuality is good."
Sotomayor & Ginsburg, I assume, wrote some screed about how much they hate Christians. I didn't bother to read it
It's important to notice that this decision would be the same before Trump, and even under Hillary.
Maybe the law isn't the best cudgel for deciding personal interactions.
Kennedy may be kicking the ball down the road, into a fogbank, but maybe fogginess is the best outcome. I can't see a bright line distinction between public accommodation and religious liberty that won't incommode someone.
The cake is the same, but the baker knows how it's going to be used, and he refuses to sell because of that
Is the cake the same? If it is the same, how does he know how it is going to be used?
Black Muslim bakery in Oakland. Homosexuals aren't willing to fight real battles; only ones where the target seems easy.
In fact, Phillips refuse to sell the same-sex marriage cake to the mother of one of the grooms. And yet, how is a same-sex wedding cake different from an opposite-sex wedding cake?
Like the Colorado Commission, you discount Phillip's belief's as having no merit? (yes, it seems you do!) Most wedding cakes are not 'off the shelf'. If it were 'off the shelf' or generic, I might see your side of this argument. However, usually the Baker spends time creating a special cake for the couple. This couple wanted a Rainbow-themed cake.
If you want a cake with a giant pink dick on it, you can get it, but not from everyone.
True. For example, you can't get a cake that says "Summa Cum Laude" from Publix.
Commission did not find a violation (such as where the baker refused to make a cake with an anti-same-sex-marriage message)
Come on. That's everything.
"Maybe the law isn't the best cudgel for deciding personal interactions."
Agreed. It's as bad an idea now as it was under Jim Crow.
"Phillips was entitled to a neutral decisionmaker who would give full and fair consideration to his religious objection as he sought to assert it in all of the circumstances in which this case was presented, considered, and decided. In this case the adjudication concerned a context that may well be different going forward in the respects noted above. However later cases raising these or similar concerns are resolved in the future, for these reasons the rulings of the Commission and of the state court that enforced the Commission’s order must be invalidated."
What a travesty of a court. For this alone the entire court ought to be impeached and removed.
They simply couldn't have ruled the baker cannot refuse to sell a cake he is already producing to someone who is gay but doesn't have to accept a special order commission work.
This is pure legal hocus pocus, as they fail to decide the legal standard to be applied in this actual case and those to come.
The legal standard they chose to decide was whether an obviously hostile commission could render a fair decision. To have not addressed this question was to have let stand the obvious bias of the commission's initial ruling and the process by which the baker was found in violation in the first place.
That ruling is not inconsequential and may be a key decision in cases far afield from those concerning individual expression.
bagoh20 said... I just don't see what indignity is shown by saying "I'm sorry. My religious beliefs do not allow me to decorate a cake with that message."
Because, in modern American, some peoples' FEELINGS trump everyone else's 1st Amendment rights. BTW, this is EXACTLY what the judge in the case told the Denver Post.
For example, you can't get a cake that says "Summa Cum Laude" from Publix.
Now that the Supremes have ruled on the impropriety of the Colorado Commission, perhaps we should send them the Publix cake case so they can work through the first amendment issues.
I think the baker didn't refuse to sell a product, he declined to create what he considers a piece of artwork. I believe if the couple wanted to purchase bakery items in the case, he would have accommodated them. I maintain if a crucifix in piss in a jar is "art" a beautifully decorated wedding cake certainly is art, and that forcing someone to make a work of creative expression is a violation of religious expression if creating the work would be against the baker's principles.
" ...and without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market."
As Gorsuch cogently pointed out:
It is precisely that approval that Mr. Phillips intended to withhold in keeping with his religious faith. The Commission denied Mr. Phillips that choice, even as it afforded the bakers in Mr. Jack’s case the choice to refuse to advance a message they deemed offensive to their secular commitments. That is not neutral.
And as Thomas even more cogently pointed out:
Although public-accommodations laws generally regulate conduct, particular applications of them can burden protected speech. When a public-accommodations law “ha[s] the effect of declaring . . . speech itself to be the public accommodation,” the First Amendment applies with full force. Id., at 573; accord, Boy Scouts of America v. Dale, 530 U. S. 640, 657–659 (2000). In Hurley, for example, a Massachusetts public-accommodations law prohibited “‘any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of . . . sexual orientation . . . relative to the admission of any person to, or treatment in any place of public accommodation.’” 515 U.S., at 561 (quoting Mass. Gen. Laws §272:98 (1992); ellipsis in original).
When this law required the sponsor of a St. Patrick’s Day parade to include a parade unit of gay, lesbian, and bisexual Irish- Americans, the Court unanimously held that the law violated the sponsor’s right to free speech. Parades are “a form of expression,” this Court explained, and the applica tion of the public-accommodations law “alter[ed] the expressive content” of the parade by forcing the sponsor to add a new unit. 515 U. S., at 568, 572–573. The addition of that unit compelled the organizer to “bear witness to the fact that some Irish are gay, lesbian, or bisexual”; “suggest . . . that people of their sexual orientation have as much claim to unqualified social acceptance as heterosexuals”; and imply that their participation “merits celebration.” Id., at 574. While this Court acknowledged that the unit’s exclusion might have been “misguided, or even hurtful,” ibid., it rejected the notion that governments can mandate “thoughts and statements acceptable to some groups or, indeed, all people” as the “antithesis” of free speech, id., at 579; accord, Dale, supra, at 660–661.
"Kennedy may be kicking the ball down the road, into a fogbank, but maybe fogginess is the best outcome. I can't see a bright line distinction between public accommodation and religious liberty that won't incommode someone."
No, the best outcome is "you want a wedding cake? Buy it from someone who wants to sell it to you."
And if that means completely gutting and getting rid of every single "public accommodation" law, then by all means, let's do that
"The Commission’s hostility was inconsistent with the First Amendment’s guarantee that our laws be applied in a manner that is neutral toward religion."
Would like to have had this ruling when some of the cases surrounding Obamacare were being argued under the Obama Admin.
It is precisely that approval that Mr. Phillips intended to withhold in keeping with his religious faith. The Commission denied Mr. Phillips that choice, even as it afforded the bakers in Mr. Jack’s case the choice to refuse to advance a message they deemed offensive to their secular commitments.
It is precisely that approval that Mr. Phillips intended to withhold in keeping with his religious faith. The Commission denied Mr. Phillips that choice, even as it afforded the bakers in Mr. Jack’s case the choice to refuse to advance a message they deemed offensive to their religious faith.
Fixed it for Gorsuch.
it rejected the notion that governments can mandate “thoughts and statements acceptable to some groups or, indeed, all people” as the “antithesis” of free speech
How long until the writers at the leading papers "notice Thomas argued it's OK for white people to be racist"...?
Ha! Originally just said "people", but the left thinks it's already OK for non-whites to be racist.
It's an interesting case, but there will be another one in about five minutes. The left will be more careful to hide their hate.
"... without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and services in an open market.". Translated, thus means "without enabling any person with a chip on xis shoulder to claim that xe felt sad." It is framed as if it were an objective empirical test but it seems to be be purely subjective. A real kicking of the Constitutional can.
Rather than analyzing the logic of the opinions, perhaps we should focus on the motivation of each justice in deciding as he or she did. That seems to be the underlying philosophy of Kennedy's approach in Masterpiece Cakeshop and of several courts in the travel ban cases.
What a crock.
It seems to me that the balance of harms weighs decisively in favor of the baker. Gays have a right to the same marriage as anybody else. And that includes the usual tools of celebration. But the baker has a right not to be forced to celebrate a wedding that violates his personal beliefs (whether religious or not).
If he were the only baker in town, than I would side with the couple, but since they can choose from many different cake bakers, the injury suffered by him by being forced to act against his beliefs is much greater than the injury suffered by them in having to move to the next name in the yellow pages.
This is a variation on what is commonly known as the "don't be a dick" rule.
tim maguire said...
Gays have a right to the same marriage as anybody else.
Gays have always had the right to the same marriage as anybody else.
"Phillips was entitled to a neutral decisionmaker who would give full and fair consideration to his religious objection" SCOTUS just impeached all liberal judges in America.
This ruling was all about protecting the confluence of civil rights and interstate commerce under the 14th amendment. SCOTUS is so far down that rabbit hole that they can’t back away from that. All they’ve done is protect this one guy for this one case. They are hoping the appeals courts will save them in the future. An excellent job of can kicking.
All of this coulda been avoided if the gay couple had simply ordered an apple pie or cupcakes.
If the Colorado lefties can restrain their contempt for religion, they might still be able to punish a few bakers.
The only action that would show courage would be test a Muslim bakery but the left is all bluster.
Except, of course for ANTIFA which is rioting in Portland and beating up Christians.
Kennedy writes, "...without undue disrespect to sincere religious beliefs,..." So, there are instances where due disrespect to sincere religious beliefs would be tolerated?
I'm never sure why these bakers don't raise a 13th amendment claim. If a Nazi walks into my shop, am I forced to serve him? No. If a black person walks into my shop, why should I be forced to serve him? A gay person?
Now, I can see if I'm in the middle of the desert and I run the only motel, and it's a choice between my motel or freezing to death.
But a cake? Really?
By the way: Jesus Himself was faced with this scenario. He and the disciples were headed to Jerusalem, and stopped for the night in Samaria.... only to be turned away from the hotel due to being Jews.
Unlike today's "tolerant, peace loving, kindness personified" leftists, who claim to be the standard of morality, Jesus simply went to the next village to catch His shuteye... even though John and James wanted to call down fire from heaven and burn the hotel to the ground.
Our leftists clearly are outclassed in tolerance by the Lord Jesus Christ here. Not that that is a surprise.
I wonder if Kagan/Breyer only joined on the condition of a narrower opinion like this, rather than an opinion that completely shut down this line of lawfare.
SCOTUS rules on Godwin's law. The majority agreed with Godwin that "when a comparison to Hitler is made, whoever made the comparison loses whatever debate is in progress."
This is a variation on what is commonly known as the "don't be a dick" rule.
The whole point and purpose of this case was a couple of gay guys being dicks.
There's a dissenting opinion by Ginsburg...
Extree! Extree! Read all about it! Useless Oldster Has Opinion!
I am wondering how the Facebook hate algorithm is handling all of this.
The Colorado Civil Rights Commission will in the future do its best to hide its contempt for traditional Christians in public hearings, in order to make sure its efforts to drive them from the public marketplace withstand SCOTUS scrutiny. And Colorado Democrat Governors will exercise care in appointing Christian-hating lesbians who know when to keep their fat mouths shut. So, yes I expect big changes from this important case. (I hope Mr. Phillips doesn't imagine that he won, more than this round.)
“If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.” Johnson, supra, at 414....
Sure they can, and do.
In United States labor law, a hostile work environment exists when one's behavior within a workplace creates an environment that is difficult or uncomfortable for another person to work in due to discrimination.[1] Common complaints in sexual harassment lawsuits include fondling, suggestive remarks, sexually-suggestive photos displayed in the workplace, use of sexual language, or off-color jokes.[2] Small issues, annoyances, and isolated incidents typically are not considered to be illegal. To be unlawful, the conduct must create a work environment that would be intimidating, hostile, or offensive to a reasonable person. An employer can be held liable for failing to prevent these workplace conditions, unless it can prove that it attempted to prevent the harassment and that the employee failed to take advantage of existing harassment counter-measures or tools provided by the employer.[3]
“Someone left the cake out in the rain(ing men)
I don’t think that I can take it (on religious grounds)
It took so long to bake it (legally)
And i’ll never have that (Masterpiece Cakeshop) recipe again!
Oh no!”
There's a Black Muslim bakery here in Oakland, CA. Requesting a gay wedding cake there would seriously test the legal fulcrum point of fidelity to First Amendment rights v. fidelity to Gay rights......
I think there is a case pending, where a transgender went into a waxing salon and the only technician there was Muslim, and refused. The civil rights commission is struggling with which protected group wins.
Christians, while enumerated in the constitution as protected, rank lower than those protected peoples invented by judges.
Iowan2 - that is not in the US.
The transgender case is in Canada. I am appalled that anyone would be compelled to wax junk that isn't the type of junk they agreed to wax. People are disgusting. Why would someone insist another person do something that would make them uncomfortable? On the one hand the left is all about not being triggered. Maybe it triggers some women to be exposed to a stranger's junk, regardless of religious belief.
"And yet, how is a same-sex wedding cake different from an opposite-sex wedding cake? The cake is the same, but the baker knows how it's going to be used, and he refuses to sell because of that. Is that or isn't that a discrimination against a type of person?"
============
Nonsense. Let's say a hardware store owner sells 2 pieces of lumber to member of a church which he knows will be used to adorn the steeple of the church. And then he refuses to sell two piece of lumber to a member of the KKK which he knows it will be used to burn a cross in a White Supremacist meeting. Are arguing that he's discriminating against a type of person (both are white mail conservatives btw) and not the use of that product? Please.
What is this case about?
Is it freedom of contract? If so, what is special about this provision of services that would not be judged as discriminatory if the service were denied a member of some other protected class?
Is it about free exercise of religion? If so, where is the exercise? Is the baker exercising his religion in performing his job? Is any other aspect of his job a religious exercise? Is baking a conventional wedding reception cake a religious exercise? Should the individual get to determine what is a religious exercise in all contexts, so that polishing the floors in a bank lobby could be judged to be support for proscribed usury?
Is it about compelled speech? If so, where is the speech? Are we to inflate all human activity into expression, so that some message is imputed in all activity? Is setting a table for a reception "speech"? Is cakemaking a category of expressive work that calls out for protections unavailable to other caterers?
If the legislature doesn't think that cake decoration is a religious or expressive practice, but somebody in the business thinks it is, is it the proper role of nine justices to issue a ruling, so that future generations can quibble about the similarities of sandwich makers to cake decorators?
I think that the case is really about posturing. A lot of people have to suffer indignities at work for the sake of others self-regard. I have seen senior executives stand out in the rain to smoke a cigarette, and think badly of themselves for their weakness, rather than badly of the law that keeps them at a greater distance from the doorway than the roof extends or their own company that will not extend the roof.
The dignity of the cake baker here has been violated for what I regard as selfish reasons. Transforming this into the realm of freedom of speech and religion does not restore his dignity. It just creates work for lawyers.
Breaking News : Bill of Rights makes a come back, after a long illiterate Supreme Court has learned to read.
(1) Did Thomas actually write "artist's palate" Obviously he meant "palette." I mean, unless it was a sly pun on "palate" and cake. Which I doubt.
(2) I'm pretty sure Your Black Muslim Bakery -- I'm assuming that's the one people are referring to -- is long gone, though it might have reopened since. Ever since its owner was arrested for murder (of a journalist, IIRC), it's been rather under a cloud.
[Googling] Yep. Happened in 2007. The owner was Yusuf Bey IV; the journalist was Chauncey Bailey, and the place is now leased to something called Vital Life Services. Bey didn't actually kill Bailey, but he ordered the hit.
I used to live literally a few blocks from there.
“If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.”
Clarence Thomas rocks!
Unfortunately, however, becauseidbefired is right.
The left's hostility toward religious values is disturbing. For all their talk about tolerance and love - they're not any different than the people they criticize - having 'tolerance and love' only for those they agree with.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/transgender-files-50k-complaint-after-muslim-woman-refuses-to-wax-genitals/
Here's the link.
Looks to have happened about three weeks ago, and the article does not mention a resolution by the Human Rights commission. Toronto Canada is the location. The same dynamic in play. Which protected group wins? Which offended snowflake wins?
Michael K
If ANTIFA refused to beat up Christians that would be discriminatory.
Two-eyed Jack said...
Is it freedom of contract? If so, what is special about this provision of services that would not be judged as discriminatory if the service were denied a member of some other protected class?
The service he is being asked to provide ( cake for a same-sex wedding ) is a service he does not provide for anyone, regardless of sexual orientation. He would not sell a cake for a same-sex marriage of two heterosexual men ( for example, if they wanted to marry for insurance purposes. )
He does bake wedding cakes for actual marriages, regardless of the sexual orientation of the man and woman getting married.
Thus, no discrimination based on sexual orientation.
It's so great (and so unexpected!) that we can rely on organized Bronze age religions to sanction bigotry. What's next? A religiously sanctioned genocide? Or did that only apply to the Canaanites and Philistines? You never know. Maybe a guy can commit a blood sacrifice of his son a la the patriarch Abraham. People in insane asylums talk and act this way all the time. But conservatives are a joke so they're ok with expanding on those things to make mass delusion a political reality.
The left's hostility toward religious values is disturbing.
There are people that need slaughtering and sons that need blood sacrificing. What are you waiting for? Time's a wasting. Prove the conviction behind your "values!"
god says that making guns as available as possible to anyone who wants to mow down a bunch of high school kids is ok.
Now it's all starting to make sense! An imaginary man in the sky said so! Take that, Supreme Court!
IiBliss…
I believe that finessing the point is part of the social indignity involved. The service is essentially the same for same-sex as for "actual" marriages. (I think the whole thing was concocted by people with bad intent, by the way, and pursuing it shows them to be people of poor character.) I don't think anything is special about this particular service that should exempt the baker from the law. Making it about the details of the service, however, makes it not about the other things (freedom of religion, compelled speech).
Is this case really about the details of services on offer? I think it is about the right to live your own life in a conventional, conservative manner without having your life destroyed by people who think that your life and livelihood are theirs to play with.
Check out the insane reviews and pictures “reviewing” Masterpiece Cakeshop on Yelp.
Two-eyed Jack said...
I believe that finessing the point is part of the social indignity involved.
I agree that finessing something that is not marriage into marriage involves a lot of social indignity.
I don't think anything is special about this particular service that should exempt the baker from the law.
I'm not suggesting that the baker be exempt from the law. The law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. As my examples showed, the baker did not discriminate based on sexual orientation.
president pee-pee tape says:
Now it's all starting to make sense! An imaginary man in the sky said so! Take that, Supreme Court!
Better be careful. Someday you might not be able to express such hostile ideas. These comments might become offensive to a reasonable person.
Gee, they probably already are offensive to a reasonable person, in fact seem to be designed specifically to offend. Hope you didn't write that at work.
Don't leave this window up at work!
"But the baker has a right not to be forced to celebrate a wedding that violates his personal beliefs (whether religious or not)."
There are a couple of things I find interesting about the Great Cake Debate. This is one of them.
I don't know anyone who considers their vendors to be their invited guests at functions. If a friend baked the cake, I would consider them a guest. But friends don't charge you $$ for stuff.
$$ in exchange for stuff is a purely transactional relationship. I can't get sentimental about relationships that charge you money.
It's really gonna suck to find yourself a driver, since most of that profession is now made up of Muslims
Is that written in stone? On a tablet perhaps? If I ran a fleet of cabs I wouldn't hire drivers who would make such a problem.
Hmm... Then I get sued for anti Muslim discrimination.
wwww,
You have analyzed it from the buyer's perspective. But that is not the proper orientation from which to judge.
If I attend a public school, can I request -- based on my private religious beliefs -- that I not be taught by an adulterer, because I do not share that person's values and do not want to interact with her? Why not? I'm not discriinating. I'm practicing my religious values in the public square.
Mary -- You seem upset with the Court for something it did NOT do (and many conservatives are upset with the Court for having left undone). The Court, at bottom, merely ruled that the baker in this case was treated unfairly by the Colorado Commission because of the anti-religious of many of the Commission's members. In essence, the Court said the Commission's ruling against the baker could not stand because the Commission had violated his constitutional right to be treated fairly by the government -- neither favored nor discriminated against by the government due to his religious beliefs.
The Court specifically declined to rule on whether or not Colorado's anti-discrimination statute was itself unconstitutional. In theory, it can be applied to another baker (or to this one), as long as Colorado does so in an even handed manner. This is where many conservatives are upset with the Court. They wanted the Colorado statute found to be unconstitutional.
The result is similar to what we might see in a criminal context: If someone commits a crime, a court might toss out virtually all the evidence against the criminal if the evidence were obtained in violation of the person's rights. That may mean a guilty person goes free. That's how our system works.
DKWalser,
There are very few commenters who will have all their comments deleted. People who respond to those people will find their comments deleted also.
Don't waste your time.
You can't let one group like Christian bakers decline their artistic services and not let another like Muslim drivers refuse to artistically drive passengers in their vehicle.
Yes, we can. Within living memory we restricted public accommodations law to 'real public accommodations' -- the kind of businesses the traveling public rely on for accommodations. We could go back to that narrow understanding of what types of businesses were exempt from the now-all-but dormant freedom of association protection provided by the 1st Amendment. Then, we could tell the taxi driver, of whatever gender, race, or religion, that the driver had to accept all paying customers -- without regard to their race, gender, or religion. Yet, bakers could choose their clients as they wished.
I'm advocating for such a system. I'm simply saying it worked before and it could work again.
There are very few commenters who will have all their comments deleted. People who respond to those people will find their comments deleted also.
Don't waste your time.
Thanks for the heads up.
We have a spill on aisle crazy.
Of course the state commission came down on the small business. Theirs is BIGGER. And don’t you forget it.
Once again, Justice Thomas knocks it out of the park.
I admit, I was skeptical when Bush nominated Thomas, but he has surpassed my wildest hopes. The finest Justice of this generation.
You have analyzed it from the buyer's perspective. But that is not the proper orientation from which to judge.
Well, I am not a judge. My comments are not meant as legal guides.
I am a buyer of cakes. I had a cake at my wedding and I bought a cake to order for a baby shower. But most of the time I make my own cakes.
I'm mostly fascinated by how much people care about cake. I'm fascinated that people talk to their baker like a marriage therapist or a priest. I can't imagine being that intimate with a vendor. Or how people think they are inviting vendors to celebrate something with them. That's so odd to me. But I find it odd that people are putting so much emphasis on cake, so....
Tonight I asked my husband what color he thought would be significant to put on a cake for us. He thought that was hilarious.
For us, a cake is just a cake.
It's the marriage that matters. The ceremony is sacred. The reception is a party. Looking back, what matters about the party the most are the older relatives we got to visit with, who have now passed. The cake was, and remains, very unimportant.
But all this talk about cake makes me want to bake a cake. I might do that.
“Seems today a public school teacher can do just about anything except sleep with students.”
Unless she’s female, then she might just get away with it.
wwww,
All that typing just to avoid the straightforward point I made?
The rights that were violated were those of the baker. Start there.
Birkel,
The rights that were violated were those of the baker. Start there.
Wow! Bossy. I am uninterested in the legal case.
I ain't a judge and it ain't my job to decide. Above my pay grade. Lots of other commenters want to talk legalities. Read their comments.
I'm fascinated there is a subculture of people who put this much time and effort and $$ into designing their wedding cakes.
My philosophy on cake:
Life is too short to get too serious about cake.
wwww,
I like that you are so honest about having nothing of substance to contribute. And you have admitted it so many times on this thread. Well played.
Of course, this discussion is incomplete without Laslo's contribution
honestly -- that some people's religious values require them to reject respecting adulterers, no matter how strongly society pushes for acceptance.
But enough about Bill Clinton.....
wwww said...
My philosophy on cake:
Life is too short to get too serious about cake.
Its have never been about the cake. It was always about moving the culture in a different direction.
LilyBart,
That's asking a lot of cake.
SCOTUS doesn’t often cabin decisions to their facts, but that is what happened today. Kennedy deftly punted on the issue while simultaneously getting Roberts (unequivocally), and Alito and Gorsuch (a little equivocally) to join an opinion with some lofty language about gay rights. Why do you think Breyer and Kagan went along with it? Do you really think it had anything to do with the supposed animus of the Colorado Commission towards the baker? Note Ginsburg’s very short dissent basically calling Gorsuch’s separate opinion stupid (which it was). She clearly wasn’t moved enough by the result to bother putting a marker down.
All the Commission really said is that religion has been used to justify some horrible shit, and that the baker was continuing that tradition. Which is true. Some Southern Baptists still believe the races shouldn’t mix. Which we all know after passage of time is such a stupid belief that it doesn’t deserve respect or really even any serious discussion in any forum, including court. So the Southern Baptists as an institution don’t embrace that view anymore (even though it used to be “part of the Bible”) because to make money and stay open, they have to change what the Bible means to get bodies in the door and tithes in the plate. It’s been happening forever. Let’s not pretend otherwise. So let’s also not pretend that the Commission’s supposedly disrespectful comments towards the baker had anything to do with the outcome of this case. Bakerman will lose the next one.
If you don’t see this as anything other than a power move by Kennedy to shore up his other decisions, you aren’t paying attention.
Justin said "If you don’t see this as anything other than a power move by Kennedy to shore up his other decisions, you aren’t paying attention."
*****************************
So... You've managed to see what ALL the other majority opinion justices did not see, and how the minority were (wink wink) in on Kennedy's ploy.
Justin, your ass is GENIUS!!!!
Snort!
@Jay Elink
My point is that they are all (the majority justices) in on the “compromise”; that the compromise was made because Kennedy had the power in this case, couldn’t make up his mind, and wanted to protect his legacy; that no one wanted to go out on a limb to try and push him one way or the other; that the reasoning offered for the baker’s win is a cover; and that the attempt by many here to cast this decision as anything than yet another win for gay rights is sadly misguided. Hope that helped you understand what I said. I’ll assume the all caps and “Snort!” were attributable to drinking.
Thomas is awesome.
"To describe a man's faith as 'one of the most despicable pieces of rhetoric that people can use' is to disparage his religion in at least two distinct ways: by describing it as despicable, and also by characterizing it as merely rhetorical—something insubstantial and even insincere. The commissioner even went so far as to compare Phillips' invocation of his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in his opinion for the majority.
intolerant anti-diversity bigoted progressive revealed her true totalitarian hate filled views about religion and blew it for the case shoppers.
sometimes schadenfreude is better than cake.
Didn't Bill Clinton give us Ruth Bater Please Hurry Up and Die Soon?
Justin said...
@Jay Elink
My point is that they are all (the majority justices) in on the “compromise”; that the compromise was made because Kennedy had the power in this case, couldn’t make up his mind, and wanted to protect his legacy; that no one wanted to go out on a limb to try and push him one way or the other; that the reasoning offered for the baker’s win is a cover; and that the attempt by many here to cast this decision as anything than yet another win for gay rights is sadly misguided. Hope that helped you understand what I said. I’ll assume the all caps and “Snort!” were attributable to drinking.
****************************
You must be a kid.
If Kennedy had the power in this case, why was it a 7 - 2 decision?
You claim to have knowledge about what individual Supreme Court justices were thinking, and what their motives are ---knowledge you absolutely...do...not..have. Even if you were a clerk for one of the justices, you would not be privy to that kind of information. You simply have no idea how the Court works.
Yet you claim that, and only you, have the superior insight to pierce the judicial veil and reveal "really" what the decision, concurrences and dissents were all about.
Fuck you, pal. You're a joke
As for using caps in one word: you must not be old enough to remember Khan on the TV series "King of the Hill." Althouse followers will.
To Mary: it's obvious that you are changing the subject.
A cake is a cake is a cake is....obviously in inanity in the context of this case.
Who do you think some of those dick cakes were meant for? Even if you really think straights put such stuff on cakes for , say, depraved bachelorette parties, do you still demand that the baker create them?
You're a dull tool.
The event, is a wedding.
They wanted a wedding cake.
Not a dildo-themed cake, or an occult cake.
A wedding cake. Just like the other customers ordered and picked up.
Two factual clarifications: 1) They didn't want a wedding cake like other customers ordered. They wanted their wedding cake to have a rainbow flag theme. (So much for the cake not having any sort of 'message' associated with it.)
2) Custom wedding cakes, as a rule, are not 'picked up' by customers. They are delivered and assembled on site. (Are there exceptions? Of course, but custom cakes tend to be large, complex structures that are too large to move across town in one piece.) In addition, the cake has to be cut correctly to get the proper yield. If the cake is supposed to feed 200 guests, cutting it incorrectly could easily leave the wedding short 50 servings. Also, the cake shop will know how to cut the cake so that the pieces look 'right' on the plate when served. So, typically, either the cake shop will instruct someone on site (responsible for the rest of the food) or will provide someone to supervise the cutting and serving of the cake.
DKWalser has it right.
It's amazing the intellectual dishonesty or willful ignorance the left is embracing in order to get to their preferred result.
tim maguire said...
It seems to me that the balance of harms weighs decisively in favor of the baker. Gays have a right to the same marriage as anybody else.
Gays always had the same right to marry as anyone else. To someone of the opposite sex who would have them. So really, no one had the right to get married, but simply the ability to do so if thy found a willing partner. And why did society, actually, all societies, set up a marital structure? Of one of two version, one man one woman or one man multiple women? To provide a way to raise children who would maintain the population and support the society.
Same sex marriage is a court mandated change of the definition of marriage. And is a sham. One (not the only) of the reasons for marriage was to ensure marital fidelity. In most cases of male on male SSM, that's out the window. Since neither partner can get pregnant- what's the point in monogamy and fidelity? SSM is NOT the same thing as marriage, and I'm really tired of people pretending it is.
We have the usual poorly reasoned dissent from Ginsberg. The woman is a crazy person. She should not be in a position where her opinion determines whether or not the laws passed by the representitives of the people of the United States are constitutional. Ginsberg is a frikkin' looney who, despite her education, believes that unelected judges, not the people, make the law in the United States of America.
Blogger Gospace said...
tim maguire said...
It seems to me that the balance of harms weighs decisively in favor of the baker. Gays have a right to the same marriage as anybody else.
Gays always had the same right to marry as anyone else. To someone of the opposite sex who would have them.
That's such a dumb response. People don't marry a person of the opposite sex who would have them, they marry the person they love if that person will marry them. What you describe as "the same right" is an absurdity that completely ignores the primary factor in the marriage decision as made in the western world.
What you describe as "the same right" is an absurdity that completely ignores the primary factor in the marriage decision as made in the western world.
..and what you describe as "the same right" is an absurdity that completely ignores thousands of years of history and tradition as made in the western world.
A cake is a cake is a cake is a cake...
Boy is that the lie that won't die!
Has no one here ever participated in a traditional wedding where the cake vendor shows up to the site to set-up and finish the cake on-site? This is what makes a wedding cake different from a run-of-the-mill cake. The shop owner offered to sell them and/or make for them a cake that they could take for their wedding. They wanted participation. They wanted the cake vendor to be PART of the wedding. That's the difference between "selling" a cake and "creating" a wedding cake.
This is the crux of the ant-Christian movements populating such "Civil Rights" commissions, wanting to impose on Christians acts so burdensome as to ruin their churches. They want to be able to force every Christian church to host and conduct gay weddings. They want every baker forced to participate in ceremonies they find sinful. THIS was the goal of pushing this suit to the Supreme Court. This what the fascist left is salivating over and today they are butt-hurt for the small set-back.
"bagoh20 said. I assume a lot of requests for certain decorations are refused. If you want a cake with a giant pink dick on it, you can get it, but not from everyone."
Or a big ole vag. With "Naughty Baker" style shops around the country, was this example not considered?
masterpiececakes.com
"Masterpiece Cakeshop is not currently accepting requests to create custom wedding cakes. Please check back in the future."
Photographers and videographers certainly come across requests they won't agree to.
Blogger President Pee-Pee Tape said...What's next? A religiously sanctioned genocide?
--
Yeah, yeah..see Coptic Christians.
wwww said...
LilyBart,
That's asking a lot of cake.
Talk to the plaintiffs about it.
"but the left thinks it's already OK for non-whites to be racist."
No no, the Left pretends non-white people simply can't be racist towards whites. Whether they can be racist against other POC's depends on the pecking order.
tim maguire said...
Blogger Gospace said...
tim maguire said...
It seems to me that the balance of harms weighs decisively in favor of the baker. Gays have a right to the same marriage as anybody else.
Gays always had the same right to marry as anyone else. To someone of the opposite sex who would have them.
That's such a dumb response. People don't marry a person of the opposite sex who would have them, they marry the person they love if that person will marry them.
Yep. No one has ever entered an arranged marriage. Princesses have never been married off to create alliances between kingdoms. No woman has ever married someone for security. And Prince Albert II of Monaco didn't marry Charlene for the sole purpose of producing an heir. (there are rumors of his sexual preferences running another way) People always and ever marry for love. Your response was so dumb. Most people don't get their first choice in the spouse preference category.
"I know, to some of you, that's the most fabulous art thang you done ever seen, but look again: under all the frosting and the sugar, it's still simply cake. A wedding cake. It's not transformed because someone is assembling it on site. It's a cake, a fancy cake, granted."
And under all tha burnt umber, chromium yellow and titanium white it's just wood and canvas and staples. Nothing more than carpentry really. With a little color thrown in.
The medium doesn't matter. The talent and effort does.
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