February 11, 2018
What are the cheers of the North Korean cheerleaders?
WaPo translates 3 cheers: 1. "Go team," 2. "Nice to meet you," and 3. "My home town."
I also heard someone on NBC-TV explaining that one of the cheers — when the women's hockey team was losing terribly (8-0) — was "Cheer up." That makes cheerleading so literal.
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214 comments:
1 – 200 of 214 Newer› Newest»Their cheers are ridiculous because they are from North Korea, which has literally no idea what is in modern culture.
The positive press they are getting is making me sick. What is wrong with the American media? Are they unaware of the Arirang festival? Are they unaware of what North Koreans go through?
I wonder what happens to them after they lose and go back to North Korea? Are they all punished and sent to prison camps?
I'll bet most of the North Korean competitors are confused and would love to make the break-away.
”one of the cheers — when the women's hockey team was losing terribly (8-0) — was "Cheer up."”
We could have used them at last night’s UW hockey game. Ugh.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
The American press is leftwing. Covering and making light of the horrors of North Korea is all part of the big show.
More likely:
Hay, Hay, Ho, Ho!
We will crush and annihilate you with our nuclear weapons you capitalist pigs.
Go team!
Our Supreme Leader is handsome and lovely in a warm, National Democratic Korean Manly Man sort of way.
Go Team!
If you lose, our handsome and lovely Supreme Leader will have you dropped into a vat of acid and your family and all of your friends will be thrown into a re-education camp just south of the China frontier.
Go Team!
"Cheer up" - when you get back to NoKo, you will be left to die on the streets or better yet you and your entire family will be forced into a prison camp. Kim Jong Un is not happy you let the country down.
Is it as bad as the love affair that the golf announcers have with Tiger Woods?
Basic premise to Remember
Kim is holding their loved ones hostage.
The left do two things: They excuse and diminish the true horrors of life under a backwards cruel Potemkin dictatorship. Next, they think it's clever to say "Trump and Pence are so much worse you guys, like for realz and stuff."
Did the coverage of the 1936 Olympics swoon over how swell the New Germany was ?
Cute girls who know how to put on a happy face. I wonder if any of them will get to do it Gangnam style?
Secret State of North Korea
North Korea's Deadly Dictator.
**CNN is suspicious of PBS over these.
"The sportive, knightly battle awakens the best human characteristics."
“If ‘diplomatic dance’ were an event at the Winter Olympics, Kim Jong Un’s younger sister would be favored to win gold. With a smile, a handshake and a warm message in South Korea’s presidential guest book, Kim Yo Jong has struck a chord with the public just one day into the PyeongChang Games.” CNN
Fuck CNN
"The American press is leftwing. Covering and making light of the horrors of North Korea is all part of the big show."
The press is a commercial enterprise, owned and managed by huge corporate entities. They do what management believes will get good ratings. They propagate propaganda, of course, as everyone does, and their propaganda serves the interests of America's ruling elites.
Slathering "but corporation" does not explain the narrative driven bias.
If telling the truth about North Korea helped the democrat party, we'd hear the truth about it from NBC and CNN et al..
I am struck by the paucity of such a display.
It seems they could only find about 100 girls who
1) could be trusted not to defect in two seconds
2) were not malnourished to look like an Ethiopian
3) doesn't uncontrollably cry all the time
4) and were pretty
out of a nation of 25 million. Perhaps they could only afford 100 uniforms.
We could find that many out of your average college. In fact...um...malnutrition is the exact OPPPOSITE of our problems.
But considering Feminism, maybe finding someone willing to be pretty and at least pretend to be upbeat might pose a bit of difficulty since your average feminist does tend to dress like a Communist.
Remember when CNN suppressed accurate news coverage from Saddam's Iraq so they could maintain a propaganda office in Baghdad?
Good times.
Yeah, tweeting positive things about Kim Jung Un's sister and covering the North Korean cheerleaders as "transcending sports" (as they said on the NBC coverage) doesn't seem to have anything to do with ratings or commercialism.
I do think there is a bias deep inside some people that tells them Asian people are cute and whimsical. They see the North Korean cheerleaders and that bias tells them they are adorable, and anyone who would be fun enough to send them to the Olympics is fun and well meaning.
They do not understand how incredibly racist it is to not give Asians the full humanity that includes the ability to be awful
Robert Cook would line us up against the wall and blame us as wreckers and hoarders.
I can just imagine the briefing these women got before they ventured south.
Bear in mind, their National Song is 'Nothing to Envy' which means NoKo is such a wonderful place, they could not possibly want anything the decadent South and West has or wants.
"Ladies, just a few key points:
1) Do not be caught on film digging into the garbage for food. These Capitalist pigs are starving their own peasants to provide you enough food, so may as well take advantage of it.
2) By the same token, don't steal any food. It will reflect badly on the Fatherland.
3) The doctors warned me that with the increased protein of your diet, you might actually start enjoying menes again. Our Great Leader, with foresight, has provided you some burlap genital rags in case this becomes a problem.
4) Do not fraternize with the Enemy. Yes they are 20 centimeters taller, have clear skin and actual musculature, but these are Capitalist Dogs who will use you, lie about their jobs as 'doctors' or 'garbage men' and try to take advantage of your innocence for a steak din.....Ha! That one there! She smiled! And I thought I heard a giggle! She's Unreliable! Take her away! She can join her family near the Artic Circle.
Where were we?"
Althouse you might enjoy this: NBC Asia correspondent Ramos apologized It's just for one thing, but at least people noticed how out of his element he was.
@MayBee:
What exactly is your point? How would you like to see North Korean participants covered? Are there that many people watching who do not already know that North Korea is an oppressive state with a godawful human rights record?
They're not robots?
North Korea's 200+ Cheerleaders steal spotlight at 2018 Winter Olympics with matching outfits, synchronized chants.
-ABC News (via Twitter)
Only one hundred? Because that's all they could afford uniforms for? Maybe
But you also have to figure the cost of keeping the hostages back home. I'm not sure how many hostages per girl, but I'd think that would add greatly to the expense.
To add to MayBee's observation: Most people also think all Asians are the same (much like they think all Latinos/Hispanics/Cubans/Mexicans/etc.) are the same. The Japanese are largely hated in Asia, but try telling that to the NBC Asian corespondent.
The entire city of Moscow under Stalin was a kind of Potemkin village. Stalin devoted 30% of the national budget for the building of the Moscow subway. Those chandeliers in the subway stations came to you courtesy of underfed collective farm workers. Gulag labor was used in the construction of the subway. OSHA rules were not strictly enforced. No one knows the exact number who died building it, but it was in the hundreds.......At least our leftist intellectuals no longer look at the broad boulevards of Pyongyang and marvel at the wonders a Communist state can produce. I understand the Kim dynasty has gone Stalin one better. The people of Pyongyang are chosen to live there on the basis of their looks. Potemkin people.
J Farmer- I don't think I said anything about the N Korean participants.
And yes, judging by the way CNN, ABC, and NBC are covering the cheerleaders and Kim Jung Un's sister, I think there are people- at least in the media- who don't understand that North Korea is an oppressive state with a godawful human rights record.
For those who haven't seen it:
https://twitter.com/CNN/status/962408418941259776
Kim Jong Un's sister is stealing the show at the Winter Olympics http://cnn.it/2nW0eKA
And yes, judging by the way CNN, ABC, and NBC are covering the cheerleaders and Kim Jung Un's sister,...
You can add Reuters, AP, Bloomberg, and Yahoo to the list.
Blogger Robert Cook said...
"The American press is leftwing. Covering and making light of the horrors of North Korea is all part of the big show."
The press is a commercial enterprise, owned and managed by huge corporate entities. They do what management believes will get good ratings. They propagate propaganda, of course, as everyone does, and their propaganda serves the interests of America's ruling elites.
Thanks for agreeing with him, Robert!
The hack press side with Kim Jong Un because Trump has taken a harsh stance against the brutal dictatorship. That is how petty democrat operatives with bylines who work for giant left-wing corporations roll.
CNN would say "Hey Bob look it's all perfectly normal here in sunny Pyongyang. I'm eating pizza. Life it good. It's that evil Trump who is unstable. No cruelty here in NoKo. Nope. None that I can see. Not that I'm here to do much digging. I'm a democratic operative with a byline and my job is to hivemind the narrative"
Cheer up! We get 3 squares a day while we're here!
You could get really tired of North Korean cheerleaders pretty fast, from the youtube version.
Are there that many people watching who do not already know that North Korea is an oppressive state with a godawful human rights record?
Seriously?
Yes. I know hoards of progressives who have no clue Hillary is corrupt and they have no idea what goes on inside north Korea. No clue.
By comparison, CNN likes this story so much they've tweeted it twice:
CNNVerified account
@CNN
Follow Follow @CNN
More
Gay US Olympians tell Vice President Mike Pence: "Eat Your heart out" http://cnn.it/2o1pzTA
--------------
"Remember when CNN suppressed accurate news coverage from Saddam's Iraq so they could maintain a propaganda office in Baghdad?"
You mean when they didn't report there were no WMD in Iraq and Saddam was no threat to the USA, and the invasion of Iraq was a criminal, calamitous fraud on the American people?
"Robert Cook would line us up against the wall and blame us as wreckers and hoarders."
Is that what turns you on, imaginings such nonsensical B & D scenarios?
Ignorant of reality Progressive Hive-minders swallow whole whatever the democratic operatives in the MSM feed them. If they hear it on Kimmel or Colbert, it's golden. NoKo is just fine and dandy. Those stupid rightwingers make such a fuss over nothing.
The same people who buy and read Michael Wolff's book are the same people who are not interested in life for the average person in North Korea.
Reuters:
Reuters Top NewsVerified account
@Reuters
Follow Follow @Reuters
North Korea judged winner of diplomatic gold at Olympics http://reut.rs/2nYWDv8
_______________________________
What is going on?????
@seeingred:
"Thanks for agreeing with him, Robert!"
If you think America's ruling elites are "left wing" (whatever that means to you, as this term is thrown about as an all-purpose epithet here, and is thus meaningless), you are deluded.
Oh, Robert Cook. I understand you might only systematically starve me.
It's really inconvenient for American progressive leftists to care about what life is like for ordinary citizens in places like North Korea and Venezuela.
First stars of the Olympic Games have emerged-North Korea's cheerleaders.
-The Wall Street Journal (via Twitter)
N. Korean "army of beauties" cheered on the unified Korean women's hockey team.
-The New York Times (via Twitter)
Birkel, as you never fail to be, you're wrong.
My assumption with all the North Koreans at the Olympics is that all of their families will be killed if they defect. At minimum, this is what the athletes and cheerleaders have been told.
It's also likely that the considerable brainwashing they've endured make them unable to see the freedom around themselves in South Korea.
It's unlikely NBC will mention this.
The sister Kim Yo Jong is hot in a Ninotchka sort of way.
@MayBee:
And yes, judging by the way CNN, ABC, and NBC are covering the cheerleaders and Kim Jung Un's sister, I think there are people- at least in the media- who don't understand that North Korea is an oppressive state with a godawful human rights record.
I think this is light fluff. It's the Olympic Games. Not exactly the platform for hardboiled political analysis. Plus, if people are watching news television for any reason other than entertainment, they're already in deep trouble. Plus, don't you find it a bit hypocritical to complain about human rights abuses in North Korea while we slather praise on Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy that summarily executes political dissidents and regime opponents?
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
It's really inconvenient for American progressive leftists to care about what life is like for ordinary citizens in places like North Korea and Venezuela.
Presumably, then, you do "care about what life is like for ordinary citizens in places like North Korea and Venezuela," right? If so, what are you doing about it? Other than virtue signaling.
Robert Cook,
Name a country in which your preferred policies have been implemented in which people were not slaughtered wholesale.
I will grant you the hypothetical that your "True" communism has never been tried. But you must grant me the argument that repealing human nature is impossible.
You would murder me to achieve your repeal of human nature. I accept that.
Curious George said...
“If ‘diplomatic dance’ were an event at the Winter Olympics, Kim Jong Un’s younger sister would be favored to win gold. With a smile, a handshake and a warm message in South Korea’s presidential guest book, Kim Yo Jong has struck a chord with the public just one day into the PyeongChang Games.” CNN
Her message was “I hope Pyongyang and Seoul get closer in our people's hearts and move forward the future of prosperous unification.” Of course, for North Korea, that’s a threat, not a “warm message” because their version of “unification” is “‘final victory’—a belated end to the Korean War with Pyongyang as the victor.” http://www.weeklystandard.com/kim-yo-jongs-guest-book-signature-was-not-a-warm-message/article/2011546
Barbara Burstin, history lecturer at the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon University, on the 1936 Olympics:
"It provided Hitler with a showcase,” Burstin says. “It was a propaganda bonanza for him"
"It kind of dulled the opposition to [Hitler] that clearly had been quite evident up to 1936,” Burstin says. “A lot of people felt he was clearly heading in the wrong direction, and by going to the Olympics we gave him the opportunity to appear sane, rational and tolerant.”
Smug thinks lighthearted pro-communist propaganda is ok.
Neat-o.
"My assumption with all the North Koreans at the Olympics is that all of their families will be killed if they defect. At minimum, this is what the athletes and cheerleaders have been told."
I doubt they need to be told.
I wonder how they feel at seeing a small SoKo child dump a snack which would have the same caloric number as one of their entire meals in the trash and not seeing the parent even berate them.
Propaganda can only go so far.
She has a great job title, Director of the Proganda and Agitation Department.
"Murder the yellow running dogs"
"Yellow running dogs" translates to "anyone who opposes us." Roughly means that peace will come when there is no opposition to our enslaving anyone we want.
Yes, J Farmer, I do care. Sorry if that bothers you and if you don't think I'm doing enough, kiss my ass.
I think this is light fluff. It's the Olympic Games. Not exactly the platform for hardboiled political analysis. Plus, if people are watching news television for any reason other than entertainment, they're already in deep trouble. Plus, don't you find it a bit hypocritical to complain about human rights abuses in North Korea while we slather praise on Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy that summarily executes political dissidents and regime opponents?
I have not heard one word of praise for Saudi Arabia during the Olympic news coverage.
And yes, the fact that it is "light fluff" is the problem. They are not required to say *anything*. They can ignore North Korea and its leader to their hearts content. They do not need to give them light fluffy positive coverage just because they have shown up to the Olympics looking for positive propaganda.
I'm seeing people here and elsewhere say "what's the harm in the media reporting on NK" (even positively) because don't we all "know" how horrible they are -- we aren't falling for the propaganda, and this is just supposed to be fun entertainment in any event. See, e.g. J. Farmer above.
The problem with that line of reasoning is it assumes that the consumers of these pieces all have freedom of information and mind/will, while ignoring the impact this will have on the actual suffering North Koreans when it gets repurposed for their consumption.
What will actually happen is Kim Jong-un will take all of these fawning headlines and repurpose them to reinforce his own propaganda and brainwashing. He will pass along these pieces, saying "look, I really am god-like" and "even the evil American people praise me."
Florence - 10:11 - thank you.
"She has a great job title, Director of the Proganda and Agitation Department."
That translates from Korean to "CNN News Director."
The cheerleading team started with 500 young girls taken from their homes, without mercy or choice. They were then threatened to practice and perform at the highest level or they would be killed, their families sent away to live on scraps of dirt and rope. Of the 500 or so that began, these were the ones that 'made' it. Their families are being held pending their performance at these Olympics.
The media covering this are the same liberal thinkers who were in love with Stalin as he murdered MILLIONS and destroyed a nation for decades (it has yet to recover). The same thinkers who still love and fawn over Castro. Loved Hugo Chavez (can anyone find an article on the vanished country of Venezuela?). They love the idea of Socialism even as it racks up 100 million deaths in just the past 100 years.
These are not the best and brightest people covering these stories. They are, in fact, the least bright among us. How it got to that place is the question.
Just remember those cute NKorean cheerleaders are slaves. Today, tomorrow and until they day they die they will be slaves.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Yes, J Farmer, I do care. Sorry if that bothers you and if you don't think I'm doing enough, kiss my ass.
I didn't say you were "doing enough." I asked what, if anything, you're doing. You declined to answer. So I assume my first instinct was right.
@MayBee:
I have not heard one word of praise for Saudi Arabia during the Olympic news coverage.
I did not mean in the Olympic news coverage. Saudi Arabia does not participate in Winter Olympics.
They do not need to give them light fluffy positive coverage just because they have shown up to the Olympics looking for positive propaganda.
The "light fluff" is the entire Winter Olympics coverage. And it makes no difference. Is press coverage of cheerleaders and a dictator's sister really going to have any effect on nuclear weapons, missile technology, or any of the other sources of tension between the North and South. South Korea is very interested in defusing the tensions on the peninsula at the moment, and the involvement of the North is part of that. Of course the North is "looking for positive propaganda." The entire event is for propaganda purposes.
Cheer squad works harder than the hockey squad. Do they swap in relief for any flagging flaggers during the time-outs?
Dickin'
I don't care, personally, about the treatment of North Koreans by their government because my care will accomplish precisely nothing. I criticize the "Free Tibet" bumper stickers because they help nothing. They are a useless salve on the helplessness of individuals to change what is beyond our power.
I do care about the positive news coverage because it actively supports North Korea.
One is a waste of energy. The other is actively harmful.
who needs leni riefenstahl when you have NBC, ABC, and CNN?
J Farmer-
You claimed that everyone obviously knows and understands the reality in NoKo. You are wrong. I know, it's difficult when a know-it-all like you is proven wrong.
You should read the comment by Florence at 10:11.
I'm seeing people here and elsewhere say "what's the harm in the media reporting on NK" (even positively) because don't we all "know" how horrible they are -- we aren't falling for the propaganda, and this is just supposed to be fun entertainment in any event. See, e.g. J. Farmer above.
The problem with that line of reasoning is it assumes that the consumers of these pieces all have freedom of information and mind/will, while ignoring the impact this will have on the actual suffering North Koreans when it gets repurposed for their consumption.
What will actually happen is Kim Jong-un will take all of these fawning headlines and repurpose them to reinforce his own propaganda and brainwashing. He will pass along these pieces, saying "look, I really am god-like" and "even the evil American people praise me."
And it makes no difference. Is press coverage of cheerleaders and a dictator's sister really going to have any effect on nuclear weapons, missile technology, or any of the other sources of tension between the North and South
How do you know it makes no difference? Why do you think North Korea sent it's minister of propaganda and its cheerleaders if *they* thought it would make no difference.
Also, the tensions between the North and the South are not the only thing that matters. We are a party to it, as is Japan, as is China. Yet the media is not doing puff pieces about Abe, or China, or even S Korea. They are specifically puffing North Korea to an American audience. Do you really think they are doing that for no domestic reason?
Also, if it makes no difference, it does tell us something about the news organizations and reporters who have made the choice- out of all the stories at the Olympic games to pick a North Korean target to fluff.
In which MayBee reiterates my point, and better than I wrote it to boot.
The media has been fluffing Leftists for decades. It is what happens when you allow Marxists to teach our children.
Perhaps my perspective is bent because I live in one of the most leftwing hivemind towns in America. I guess I need to do a fly-past over NoKo and drop leaflets in order to prove I care. Or find a way into Venezuela to feed the poor, to prove I care. Any sad and lame attempt by me to educate local leftists on the reality and cruelty inside NoKo is met with deer in the headlights. The collective left is so consumed with Trump hate, anything outside of the gated walls of Trump hate is met with skepticism.
Just the other day I spoke with a local realtor who was reading the Michael Wolff book. He has no clue that Hillary is corrupt (what? No way. I just don’t’ see it.) or that the North Korean dictator is a bad guy. Nope - Trump is the bad guy, and nothing else matters. Not only that, North Korea is some fake news propaganda used by Trump to get us into war. donncha know. I ask dear leftist if he understands or has any idea what life is like for most North Koreans. Deer in headlights.
I try to inspire leftists to watch PBS. How odd?
The locals in my leftwing college town don't care at all about the failures of Venezuelan socialism and make a million excuses for those failures. The excuses can be found in local college magazines. It's so small a thing but I try to get people to listen or read something outside of the hivemind. It's like pulling teeth and it's also a great way to get banned from any social circles. They really do buy into the "socialism/communism have not been implemented correctly, we need one more try."
The only focus leftists have is Trump hate. If it doesn’t fit nicely into the narrative, it’s fake news.
Cheerleading is an interesting topic.
It is an American import, pure and simple, along with many sports. The other, and greater, source of popular sports of course is Britain.
The first cheerleaders in Asia were in the Philippines, as thats where US-style universities (as opposed to British/French/Spanish/Dutch ones) were first planted. These were created by US officials who copied everything down to the most minute social custom, including college sports. The only major adjustment was to substitute basketball for football.
The University of the Philippines was modelled after American State University systems. The existing Catholic universities were adjusted to suit, and new ones founded, on US Catholic models. My own was founded and explicitly modelled after Notre Dame, down to the college fight song.
And so, also, cheerleaders. Even after all the US influence since 1945 I think the Philippines still has the only genuinely "American" college cheerleaders in Asia.
“Are there that many people watching who do not already know that North Korea is an oppressive state with a godawful human rights record?”
Surely you jest. The average network TV viewer has no idea, no knowledge of history, no frame of reference to inform them what life in a totalitarian slave state might be like. And half of the ones that do have some idea will happily invent rationalizations to ignore reality.
Obviously in tyrannical tinpot totalitarian states, being literal is the primary requirement for survival because anything else is subversion.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
You claimed that everyone obviously knows and understands the reality in NoKo. You are wrong. I know, it's difficult when a know-it-all like you is proven wrong.
I never made any such claim. What I asked, rhetorically, was "Are there that many people watching who do not already know that North Korea is an oppressive state with a godawful human rights record?"
From a Pew poll in April of 2017: "Overall, 78% of Americans have an unfavorable view of the communist nation ruled by Kim Jong Un, with 61% holding a very unfavorable opinion."
From a Brookings survey: "Please name TWO countries that you believe pose the greatest threat to world peace and security" 77% put North Korea at the top. "Please name TWO national or world leaders you think pose the greatest threat to world peace and security" 62% chose Kim Jung-Un.
I guess I need to do a fly-past over NoKo and drop leaflets in order to prove I care. Or find a way into Venezuela to feed the poor, to prove I care.
It has nothing to do with proving you care. I do not doubt that you care. But that and four bucks will get you a gallon of milk. And as long as we're caring, why limit it to just North Korea and Venezuela? What about the suffering of people in Gambia? Or Uzbekistan? Or China? Or Saudi Arabia?
@MayBee:
Also, if it makes no difference, it does tell us something about the news organizations and reporters who have made the choice- out of all the stories at the Olympic games to pick a North Korean target to fluff.
Published by NBC yesterday: Fred Warmbier hopes his presence at Olympics is reminder of brutality of the Kim regime
@Florence:
He will pass along these pieces, saying "look, I really am god-like" and "even the evil American people praise me."
Can you quote anything from "these pieces" that you consider praise of Kim Jung-Un?
@The Cracker Emcee Activist:
Surely you jest. The average network TV viewer has no idea, no knowledge of history, no frame of reference to inform them what life in a totalitarian slave state might be like.
And the media's Olympics coverage can give them that "frame of reference?" Suppose that the media covered the Olympics in the way that would please the commenters here. What would be different? A huge majority of the country already has negative views of North Korea and Kim Jung-Un.
A poll! Whew. that really proves what I see on the street in leftwing land. No poll needed - leftists are clueless about NoKo, and they do not care at all. But caring is over-rated.
I watched the Warmbier interview on NBC. I don't need a link to know what I watched. Mr Warmbier was a disappointment. Even HE made excuses for the NoKos.
All those la-las were like Munchkinland. I wonder if our treasury dept could complete?
Must have been annoying if you wanted to watch the game.
that's great, J.Farmer
Now if only they weren't writing and producing fluff about North Korea on top of that.
Alright, I re-watched the video of Mr. Warmbier. Mr. Warmbier was better than I remember. What I did notice was when Mr. Warmbier was talking about "the regime" NBC layered an image of Pence on the screen. Gee I wonder why?
Now - must get back to baking cakes for the women in Saudi Arabia.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
A poll! Whew. that really proves what I see on the street in leftwing land.
Yeah, people you run into on a daily basis are not a representative sample of the country. So what? Your anecdotes don't disprove my point, and the objective data that's out there supports it. Namely, the country has an overwhelmingly negative view of North Korea and Kim Jung-Un.
J Farmer said..
What exactly is your point? How would you like to see North Korean participants covered? Are there that many people watching who do not already know that North Korea is an oppressive state with a godawful human rights record?
The point is our media play a large roll in shaping opinion. Glad your poll with a sample size of 2,000 people reveals some negative reactions towards NoKo. The MSM are trying to move that in the other direction.
with fluff.
Let me save you some time, J Farmer.
You know it all.
"Namely, the country has an overwhelmingly negative view of North Korea and Kim Jung-Un."
True, but having a negative view and being willing to support a war against them are different things. The NK propaganda efforts at the Olympics have the purpose of humanizing the North Korean people and thus making American popular support for war less likely. They're making the most of the opportunity the Olympics provide and I'd say they're doing a good job of it.
You don't want to kill the cute cheerleaders, do you. Of course not, and the more you see of them the less likely you are to support a war that would do just that.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
The point is our media play a large roll in shaping opinion. Glad your poll with a sample size of 2,000 people reveals some negative reactions towards NoKo. The MSM are trying to move that in the other direction.
They do not reveal "some negative reactions." They reveal overwhelmingly negative opinions of the country and the leader. If you have some evidence to the contrary, please present it.
You know it all.
Nope. Plenty of things I know nothing about. The majority of posts here I do not comment on because I have nothing useful to say about the topics. But there are some things I do know well, and I am prepared to defend them.
@Rabel:
They're making the most of the opportunity the Olympics provide and I'd say they're doing a good job of it.
And I'll predict that when the games are over, it will have pretty much zero impact on international affairs.
You don't want to kill the cute cheerleaders, do you. Of course not, and the more you see of them the less likely you are to support a war that would do just that.
Heaven forbid we consider the human costs before plunging foolishly into a preventative war that could get millions of people killed.
Nothing wrong with humanizing the North Korean people, since they are human after all. But I object to putting a pretty face on the regime that dehumanizes them.
A negative rating of 78% is impressive in some contexts, but the North Korean regime should have at least a 98% negative rating, like (e.g.) American Nazis. Even that is not really high enough for either: if six million Americans (2%) thought that Nazis are good, or fair to middling, or even no worse than the mainstream parties (which is pretty damned bad), that would be really worrisome. Fortunately, I'm pretty sure that support for, or acceptance of, Nazis in the U.S. is closer to 0.2% than 2%. (I don't mean acceptance of their right to demonstrate peacefully without being punched in the face: any decent person supports that. I mean acceptance of their 'ideas'.)
The fact that 22% of Americans - roughly 70 million people, but let's say 50 million to exclude children, the insane, the senile - think the North Korean regime is not utterly vile, Satanically cruel, not to mention dangerously well-armed, or don't know whether it is or not, is really worrisome. That's fifty million totalitarian thugs, or idiots, or (in many cases) both, who have a right to vote, and many of whom work in the press! If that doesn't bother you, it should.
My real life experience with leftists is not found in any obscure poll.
"Heaven forbid we consider the human costs before plunging foolishly into a preventative war that could get millions of people killed."
I agree with you here and was pointing out the NK efforts at emphasizing that side of the cost/benefit analysis of an attack on NK in the minds of American Olympic viewers.
"And I'll predict that when the games are over, it will have pretty much zero impact on international affairs."
Wrong. It will not be the deciding factor but it will move the needle. That's why they're doing it.
It would be nice if the free world could find a way to free the people of NoKo. Set an example that we will act in the noble cause of human dignity. Sadly, the will to do so is shoved deep under the fear of war. and a war is not the only remedy.
Dr. Weevil - stop thinking beyond an obscure poll. Stop it!
@DrWeevil:
That's fifty million totalitarian thugs, or idiots, or (in many cases) both, who have a right to vote, and many of whom work in the press! If that doesn't bother you, it should.
I think it is more likely a result of apathy than being "totalitarian thugs." An average American can likely name more Kardashians than Supreme Court judges. Around 25% of the American population has an IQ under 90 after all. Can you cite an example of a prominent news personality or organization that you would describe as having a "favorable" view of North Korea?
Also, this from Forbes:
"Americans have no illusions about the North Korean regime. In February, Gallup released its yearly update of American perceptions of 21 different nations. North Korea ranked at the bottom of the list in terms of favorable impressions. Eighty-six percent viewed the regime unfavorably, including 58 percent who had a very unfavorable view. In a May Fox News poll, 77 percent of registered voters called North Korea a bitter enemy, and another 16 percent somewhat of an enemy. (As a point of comparison, only 6 percent called China a bitter enemy and 28 percent somewhat of an enemy). In an April Fox News poll and a July Politico/Morning Consult poll that asked about the greatest threats to the US, North Korea was at the top, ranking higher than ISIS."
-North Korea And Public Opinion
What is wrong with the American media?
A shorter list would entail what is right with the American media.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
It would be nice if the free world could find a way to free the people of NoKo. Set an example that we will act in the noble cause of human dignity. Sadly, the will to do so is shoved deep under the fear of war. and a war is not the only remedy.
Right. America is obviously very afraid of war. We've only been fighting wars in 7 countries for the past two decades and still haven't extricated ourselves from any of the wars we have started. So tell us how you "free the people of NoKo," if war is "not the only remedy?"
Dr. Weevil - stop thinking beyond an obscure poll. Stop it!
Yes, much better to formulate policy based on your impression of the people you run into at Starbucks.
@Rabel:
Wrong. It will not be the deciding factor but it will move the needle. That's why they're doing it.
So, after the games, the South Koreans and the Japanese and the Chinese will be fine with testing ballistic missiles and advancing their nuclear weapons program? The US will give up on sanctions? South Koreans don't want war with North Korea because they don't want to die, not because they saw some cheerleaders on TV. What does "move the needle" even mean?
From Michael Moore's twitter feed (@MMFlint) Thursday:
"I just loved the whole F-Trump opening to the Olympics last night. From all Koreans coming in together under one blue flag of peace, to Pence & “mother” forced to sit in front of Kim’s sister, to the popular Korean singers joining together to sing John Lennon’s “Imagine” - BOOM!"
"Lest too many people started singing along at home to “Imagine no heaven, no religion, no possessions,” Katie Couric was quick to point out the (true) human rights violations of North Korea. Spoken by a person from a nation run on mass incarceration, and 30M w/ no health care."
As he wrote, "BOOM!"
By the way, mentioning the number of sub-90-IQ Americans as if it were some kind of objection to what I wrote, when I'd already specifically mentioned "idiots" shows a certain (how to put this nicely?) sloppiness in argumentation.
The only focus leftists have is Trump hate.
Not exactly. They hate anything and everything that isn't leftist. Especially conservatives.
Trump is simply the focal point in that hatred. For now.
Eventually, it will be somebody else.
All they have is hate. Which is fine by me.
I welcome their hatred. It means I'm doing it right.
"So, after the games..."
Why take the discussion to the absurd? It tends to invalidate the points you were making earlier.
Do those same young women lead cheers for the slave labourers digging the foundations for their barracks with their bare hands?
Spoken by a person from a nation run on mass incarceration, and 30M w/ no health care."
Spoken by a morbidly obese person cheerleading a nightmare state that uses food as a weapon against its own people.
"The parents of Otto Warmbier, a young man who was detained in North Korea for more than a year and died soon after being released, said on Tuesday he was “jerking violently”, howling and “staring blankly” when he returned home on a medical flight.
Why are North Korea's leaders specifically threatening US bombers?
The young man’s father, Fred Warmbier, also said his son, a 22-year-old University of Virginia student, had been tortured and that his mouth “looked like someone had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged his bottom teeth”.
--
I can't find a definitive cause of death other than lack of oxygen to brain.
Michael K, any thoughts?
Is there a poll out there that recounts the number of leftists who mocked and ridiculed Otto Warmbier and blamed Otto for his own death?
I recall a lot of leftwing blame shifting when Otto's story came to light.
Also, do you hear about the other 3 Americans who are captive in NoKo? You know - like on CNN, or NBC?
J Asshole - I don't go to Starbucks.
Quick - I cannot think without a link to an obscure poll.
Before Otto's death, the Left already murdered his reputation.
So, after the games, the South Korean government will figure its got public support again to quietly pay off the NK government, which is what the NK's wanted in the first place, and the nuke and missle game will go on, more quietly, but as before.
Until the next time.
@Dr Weevil:
As he wrote, "BOOM!"
Michael Moore is neither a news personality nor a news organization. And his tweet was not "favorable" of North Korea, but a typical anti-Trump jab.
As he wrote, "BOOM!"
By the way, mentioning the number of sub-90-IQ Americans as if it were some kind of objection to what I wrote, when I'd already specifically mentioned "idiots" shows a certain (how to put this nicely?) sloppiness in argumentation.
I agreed with that portion of your argument. What I disagreed with was the notion that they were "totalitarian thugs."
@Rabel:
Why take the discussion to the absurd? It tends to invalidate the points you were making earlier.
Because those are the contentious issues: nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. You said the coverage would "move the needle." I asked you what that meant. You didn't answer. How will positive coverage of some cheerleaders affect the South Korean, American, or Japanese position on North Korea?
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Is there a poll out there that recounts the number of leftists who mocked and ridiculed Otto Warmbier and blamed Otto for his own death?
You're obviously itching to argue with a straw man, so go find him. I pointed out that large percentages of the country have very negative views of North Korea and Kim Jung-Un. Your response seems to be that that doesn't apply to some people you know.
"Namely, the country has an overwhelmingly negative view of North Korea and Kim Jung-Un.”
A “negative view” of something or someone can be picked up in 5 minutes of watching TMZ. And changeable accordingly. Some understanding of what the reality might be? Well, that will require a little more effort and 95% of the people parked in front of the tube will never make that effort.
"You said the coverage would "move the needle." I asked you what that meant. You didn't answer."
I can't imagine that you're unfamiliar with the expression and likewise can't imagine that you didn't understand it in the context in which it was used.
@The Cracker Emcee Activist:
Well, that will require a little more effort and 95% of the people parked in front of the tube will never make that effort.
I don't disagree with that. And that's largely why I think obsessing over media coverage of the Winter Olympics is hysterical and a complete waste of time. Even if Americans were completely united against the North Korean regime, there isn't much American citizens can do to help the political situations of North Koreans.
@Rabel:
I can't imagine that you're unfamiliar with the expression and likewise can't imagine that you didn't understand it in the context in which it was used.
I understand what the phrase means; I just don't see how it applies here. I am asking you for concrete examples. How will fluffy coverage of cheerleaders impact how Japan or the US approach the problem? So now I'm asking for a third time.
"So now I'm asking for a third time.'
That's fully explained in my previous comments.
It remains to be seen whether the Pep Squad and Kim's cute sister will distract us and the Japanese when Kim resumes throwing missiles around.
"I am asking you for concrete examples."
But in a spirit of cooperation I'll cite DB@H's 1:10. You're undoubtedly familiar with the concept of the zeitgeist so I'm sure you can make the connection.
don't you find it a bit hypocritical to complain about human rights abuses in North Korea while we slather praise on Saudi Arabia
Ah one of those questions made up of non-sequitur and allusions of hypocrisy untethered to any real statement here.
1. Literally no one here is heaping “praise” on Saudi Arabia. If you have to make up shit at least try and make it believable.
2. It’s always appropriate to complain about Nork HR abuses. They are the modern nazi/gulag in full evil totalitarian bloom. There is no comparable nation with which one could pair them and find the Norks more civilized or compassionate. Not one.
3. “Hypocrisy” is something only Holden Caulfield and others stuck in adolescence really care about. You only see it in news stories smearing Republicans because it is also one of those terms that just refuses to attach to liberals. See Fen’s Law.
@Rabel:
But in a spirit of cooperation I'll cite DB@H's 1:10. You're undoubtedly familiar with the concept of the zeitgeist so I'm sure you can make the connection.
There were no concrete examples in his comment, and I'll cite my response to his comment:
"Right. America is obviously very afraid of war. We've only been fighting wars in 7 countries for the past two decades and still haven't extricated ourselves from any of the wars we have started. So tell us how you 'free the people of NoKo,' if war is 'not the only remedy?'"
"There were no concrete examples in his comment..."
J, you're much too literate and informed for the "dumb bunny/I don't understand" pose to work. Leave that to I and C and A and the others of their ilk. For multiple reasons they're much better at it and there's no need to tarnish your brand.
@Mike:
1. Literally no one here is heaping “praise” on Saudi Arabia. If you have to make up shit at least try and make it believable.
I did not say that any specific person here was. I was talking about the American government, hence my pronoun "we."
2. It’s always appropriate to complain about Nork HR abuses.
When did I say it was inappropriate?
3. “Hypocrisy” is something only Holden Caulfield and others stuck in adolescence really care about. You only see it in news stories smearing Republicans because it is also one of those terms that just refuses to attach to liberals. See Fen’s Law.
I don't care how other people use it. I care about how I use it and I care that it is used accurately. For the US government to complain about some human rights abuses when it partners, supports, and praises other human rights abusers is just what I said it was: hypocrisy.
@Rabel:
J, you're much too literate and informed for the "dumb bunny/I don't understand" pose to work.
Here is the post you cited:
It would be nice if the free world could find a way to free the people of NoKo. Set an example that we will act in the noble cause of human dignity. Sadly, the will to do so is shoved deep under the fear of war. and a war is not the only remedy.
If you can find a "concrete example" in there, then you are undoubtedly much more literate than I am.
They propagate propaganda, of course, as everyone does, and their propaganda serves the interests of America's ruling elites.
America's ruling elites are lefties. They're just not as honest about it as you are about yourself. This is the point that honest lefties, who look at those elites as somehow different, continually get wrong. They're not different - they just want to turn the country into a socialist country ruled by those same elites, and do it stealthily.
Regarding Jong-Un's sister: a couple of the regulars here, one of which being Cook, took me to task the other day when I suggested that there was no overreaction to the Communist threat, which exists today. Our own media heap praise on a new "star" in the making - Rocket Man's sister - and still somehow I'm overreacting.
Nope. Communism is still the same threat its always been.
Rabel - thanks.
In the end, we do something or we don't.
J Farmer - You'd make a good government bureaucrat. Sound and fury signifying nothing.
"If you can find a "concrete example" in there, then you are undoubtedly much more literate than I am."
Probably so, but to continue with my temporarily cooperative attempts I'll offer this for your consideration:
1. The likelihood of war is influenced to a degree by the level of popular support for war.
2. Popular support for war is influenced to a degree by the public's perception of the nature of the potential enemy.
3. The NK use of cheerleaders at the Olympics is intended to influence the perceptions of the American public by humanizing the North Korean people as opposed to the North Korean government.
4. At 1:10 DB@H expressed a sympathetic view of the North Korean people that I have not seen in her previous commentary.
5. DB@H appears to have slightly softened her view of the North Korean situation in light of the harm a war would do to the innocents among the NK population. Propaganda works. The cheerleaders are propaganda.
We shook take our troops home and let the Asians sort it out.
Japan should remilitarize and we should give them a couple of nukes and then leave.
Gooks and nukes are not a good combination. Let it be Chinas problem. We need to stop these Imperial dreams and worry about America first.
Rabel
I have no interest in dropping a bomb on the people of NoKo - never have. Same with Iran.
It's the leaders of these nations that are the problem. Lil' Kim knows what he is doing.
There is propaganda hiding the horror show inside NoKo. Despite any 2,000 person poll that shows some people have a "negative view" of NoKo. Yeah - all sorts of nations have extreme poverty and other problems we cannot fix. We probably cannot fix NoKo, but then again one of these days one of Kim's missiles will actually hit something of consequence. But it will be Trump's fault.
"We shook take our troops home and let the Asians sort it out."
The wisdom of that approach was well illustrated at Pearl Harbor.
CNN goes full Kim
Michael Moore belongs in one of Kim Jong Un's prison camps.
Dickin'
Moore is a piece of work, isn't he? Compares the people we have in prison to the entire population of North Korea, and says we're worse. What a lunatic.
I think many on the left like the idea of forced starvation if you are not loyal to the big idea.
I Callahan
Moore is a fat fuck who needs to die at the hands of the cruel leftist dictators he admires.
Sadly, Moore has an audience and people who agree with him. I read a poll somewhere.
The Media Sides With North Korea Over The United States At The Olympics
"It goes without saying that North Korea’s conduct during this weekend was a deliberate attempt to make their regime appear sympathetic and create the illusion that the United States is the true barrier to peace between the two nations. Journalists, with their fancy degrees and ostensible interest in appearing educated, should know this better than anyone else. Of course, only one thing could cloud their moral judgement this much: A Republican in the White House."
@Rabel:
4. At 1:10 DB@H expressed a sympathetic view of the North Korean people that I have not seen in her previous commentary.
That is not a "concrete example" of the needle moving.
5. DB@H appears to have slightly softened her view of the North Korean situation in light of the harm a war would do to the innocents among the NK population. Propaganda works. The cheerleaders are propaganda.
My refutation to your article is the last 20 years. We have waged war in at least 7 countries. Do you recall a public debate or a Congressional vote to send hundreds of troops to Niger? The Trump administration is committing the US to an open-ended presence against Syria aimed, in part, at the Syrian government. Do you recall a big public discussion of this? Is this authorized by Congress? Even if some small part of the electorate changer their view of military action because of some cheerleaders, that would have no baring on what decision makers in Washington do.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Sadly, Moore has an audience and people who agree with him. I read a poll somewhere.
Sorry if a poll does not happen to reflect the point of view of amorphous "leftists" you chit chat with. You remind me of that great Pauline Kael quote: "I don't know how Richard Nixon could have won. I don't know anybody who voted for him"
I remember the magazine "Soviet Life" from a previous life doing journalism of sorts for kids in school. Full of happy peasants in traditional garb, all smiling and waving. Our Walter Duranty press should go back and look through them. All grist for the Gulag mill, where undoubtedly many wound up, as did many in the Soviet Union in general.
"Just checking for squirrels"
Yes yes - real life leftists do not count. Got it. I've sited numerous examples above of leftists (media and entertainers) who choose to support the cruelty of NoKo, because they hate Trump. I guess they do not count because they are not found in obscure polling data.
The topic is cheerleaders, NoKo, and the media who cheer NoKo and feed NoKo's political propaganda objective.
CNN fell for it.
Is there a poll to prove CNN fell for it? probably not.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
Yes yes - real life leftists do not count. Got it.
Let's just recap. I said that most Americans already have negative views of North Korea and Kim Jung-Un. You say that is not true because you know people personally who don't. So I cited multiple sources that demonstrate very negative views of North Korea and the Kim regime.
I've sited numerous examples above of leftists (media and entertainers) who choose to support the cruelty of NoKo, because they hate Trump.
Talk about overwrought. Supporting the cruelty of NoKo? Not wanting to go to war against North Korea is not supporting the cruelty. I presume you don't want to go to war in central Africa. Therefore, should I conclude that you support the cruelty there, including child soldiers and rape as a weapon of war?
The topic is cheerleaders, NoKo, and the media who cheer NoKo and feed NoKo's political propaganda objective.
And in a week, none of it will mean a damn thing. The issues between the South and North, China, Japan, and the US will remain just as they were before, and the administration has showed no signs from backing down from their unrealistic, maximalist demands.
"Let me save you some time, J Farmer.
"You know it all."
He knows more than anyone debating with him here.
The re-cap is tedious. Really. Get over yourself.
You linked all sorts of obscure polls and the point of those polls was to shut down the discussion. "Stop talking, all sorts of people have negative opinions of NoKo."
The actual topic is the cheerleaders, and how it's all part of the big scheme to normalize a brutal dictatorship.
oh look: a tweet that captures it all fairly well:
Everyone say it with me now:
You don’t have to like Trump —
but Kim Jong Un is so much worse.
If you don’t understand the difference between a nation’s leader sending out some stupid tweets and a nation’s leader running a prison state, you should just walk away from journalism.
"The NK propaganda efforts at the Olympics have the purpose of humanizing the North Korean people and thus making American popular support for war less likely."
Gee, how horrible! That the American people might be persuaded (if they don't already think so) that we should not go to war against North Korea!
And in a week, none of it will mean a damn thing.
I disagree.
We will still know the New York Times was willing to write stuff like this:
The New York TimesVerified account
@nytimes
Without a word, only flashing smiles, Kim Jong-un's sister outflanked Vice President Mike Pence in diplomacy
The issues between the South and North, China, Japan, and the US will remain just as they were before, and the administration has showed no signs from backing down from their unrealistic, maximalist demands.
At least I can read into this that you know *why* the media outlets are doing this, and it isn't mere Olympic fluff.
I lived in England in 1966 when it hosted the World Cup. The darlings of the tournament, besides the host champions, were the North Koreans, who managed a shattering upset of perennial power Italy. Did it have any effect on perception of the totalitarian regime? Not really. (Of course, at the time South Korea was also under the rule of a military dictator.)
He's more pedantic than anyone debating with him here.
Robert Cook I love ya man, but you get the false choice award.
"They propagate propaganda, of course, as everyone does, and their propaganda serves the interests of America's ruling elites." I take it this was MayBee's point. But Cook, exactly who are these "elites"? Does it include, say, the president and vice-president? If it does, how does the MSM propaganda serve their interests? If not, is the pro-NK propaganda aimed against the actual elected leaders?
"The topic is cheerleaders, NoKo, and the media who cheer NoKo and feed NoKo's political propaganda objective.//JF: And in a week, none of it will mean a damn thing." Is this the "debate" Cook was talking about? Like, people criticize the pro-NK cheerleading in the US MSM, and we get 1. but why don't you bitch about pro-Saudi propaganda? and 2. what are you going to do about all those s**holes? and 3. "in a week it won't mean a damn thing"? That "debate"?
@Maybee -
The New York TimesVerified account
@nytimes
Without a word, only flashing smiles, Kim Jong-un's sister outflanked Vice President Mike Pence in diplomacy
Jeebus. There is no mask at all anymore. Mask fell to the floor, kicked into the trash, rotting in the landfill.
The left are not protecting us from a war, the left are protecting and making excuses for a brutal dictator.
Then again, this is nothing new.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
You linked all sorts of obscure polls and the point of those polls was to shut down the discussion. "Stop talking, all sorts of people have negative opinions of NoKo."
I think this is probably the first time in my life anyone ever accused me of trying to "shut down the discussion." If anything, I want to expand the discussion. I referenced those polls to support a statement I made. And as for "obscure polls," I cited Pew and Brookings and an article that cited Gallup and Fox News.
The actual topic is the cheerleaders, and how it's all part of the big scheme to normalize a brutal dictatorship.
And as I said, everything that goes on at the Olympics at a national level is propaganda. Again, imagine if the coverage was exactly what YOU wanted. Nothing would change inside of North Korea, and nothing would change in the conflicts between the relevant powers.
"That is not a "concrete example" of the needle moving."
If my assertion (admittedly poorly sourced) is correct then it is absolutely a concrete example. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.
"My refutation..."
This paragraph relies on an unsupportable claim that the public has no role whatsoever in setting policy and is simply an avoidance of the obvious.
But if I must, if only to call attention to the importance of the public's perception and it's influence on our government and it's actions, I'll point out that Hillary of Libya won the popular vote over a candidate who campaigned on a largely non-interventionist and moderately isolationist foreign policy.
Those two appear to have agreed that the public's opinion matters. And one of them was the smartest person ever.
@Dickin'Bimbos@Home:
The left are not protecting us from a war, the left are protecting and making excuses for a brutal dictator.
Then again, this is nothing new.
First, most of the power players in the media are corporatist, centrist, globalists; they are not radical leftists. Second, where do you get most of your information about North Korea? The mainstream press, or do you use alternative sources? There are tons of stories regarding North Korea's human rights abuses in the mainstream press. How does this fact square with your theory that the media is trying to protect North Korea?
@Rabel:
If my assertion (admittedly poorly sourced) is correct then it is absolutely a concrete example. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.
When I asked you for a concrete example, you pointed me to another commenter's post, which had no examples of anything.
This paragraph relies on an unsupportable claim that the public has no role whatsoever in setting policy and is simply an avoidance of the obvious.
Not "no role whatsoever," just a fairly minimal role. See Robert Michels' "iron law of oligarchy." Americans are largely indifferent to foreign military adventurism so long as the number of Americans returning in body bags remains low.
".... I'll point out that Hillary of Libya won the popular vote over a candidate who campaigned on a largely non-interventionist and moderately isolationist foreign policy."
And his actual foreign policy has been to escalate wars we are involved in and commit us to new ones.
If "nothing would change in the conflicts between the relevant powers" then your efforts "to expand the discussion" seem rather pointless.
"When I asked you for a concrete example, you pointed me to another commenter's post, which had no examples of anything."
My caution to you about playing dumb has failed. One person slightly moderating their position is only a drop in the ocean, but the ocean is made up of drops.
"Not "no role whatsoever," just a fairly minimal role."
Good to see you coming around to my position.
@Rabel:
If "nothing would change in the conflicts between the relevant powers" then your efforts "to expand the discussion" seem rather pointless.
It is pointless, except as an intellectual exercise. I don't consider blog comments to be ground zero for political organization or activism.
"It is pointless"
Wrong again. You matter and your efforts, however misguided, do make a difference.
@Rabel:
One person slightly moderating their position is only a drop in the ocean, but the ocean is made up of drops.
I understood this point from the first time you uttered it. Where I differ from you is in believing that it is at all likely.
@Rabel:
Wrong again. You matter and your efforts, however misguided, do make a difference.
I didn't say I didn't matter. I was referring only to my activity here, which is a very, very small part of my actual life.
"Where I differ from you is in believing that it is at all likely."
I didn't offer a judgement on the ultimate effect of the propaganda, only that there would be one.
To state my 5:49 more clearly, I didn't offer a judgement on the ultimate result of the propaganda, only that it would have an effect on the situation.
@Rabel:
To state my 5:49 more clearly, I didn't offer a judgement on the ultimate result of the propaganda, only that it would have an effect on the situation.
I don't doubt that it will have an "effect." I just believe that the effect will be negligible and will have no lasting impact on the relations between the countries. Joseph Nye has made a strong argument for "soft power," but I think in the international realm, it has very little power.
Moving on, but keeping with the propaganda theme while following up an Althouse post from yesterday, WTF?
This started with AFP and has now been picked up by The Hill and others.
I'll just say that the quotes don't look like official CIA talk.
Okay,
My wife brought this up today re 'Saudi' versus Nork.
Saudi, for all it's many and manifest flaws, has what is known as a 'redeeming value', i.e. oil. You know, the thing that makes our civilization and way of life possible.
This is sort of like Hippie Chicks: normally idiotic, loathsome, highly opinionated and entitled.
But some of them are hot and promiscuous and so we tolerate them (Feminism seems to be culling the herd...with the corresponding drop in their ability to influence opinion about things)
Nork has NO redeeming features. None. No resources we can't get elsewhere, no art, no science, Kimshee we can get from the South. Ideologically opposed to essentially everything we believe and idiotic enough to try to be dangerous, they are the rabid coyote eyeing a sheep farm.
If they stay away, all is good. If they don't, now we have to deal with them.
Kim is not slinking away.
Ergo: something MUST be done, but the Press is trying to sap the will of actually DOING anything...as they constantly do.
Just like in Iraq, when they preferred chemical weapon development, rape rooms, genocide of the Kurds and Swamp Arabs, and the terrorism of anyone who wasn't Sunni.
This is a questionably moral position.
If they choose to not want to defend the nation and our culture, there are those of us who WILL and will criticize those like J Farmer who feels the exact same way and will scribe MASSIVE amounts of apologetics for that doctrine.
@FIDO:
Saudi, for all it's many and manifest flaws, has what is known as a 'redeeming value', i.e. oil. You know, the thing that makes our civilization and way of life possible.
Iran has oil, too. So what?
Ergo: something MUST be done, but the Press is trying to sap the will of actually DOING anything...as they constantly do.
North Korea is already one of the most sanctioned, isolated countries in the world. And it views its nuclear program as an absolute necessity to deter regime change. The say Libya as the classic example of a country that gave up a weapons program in favor of sanctions relief, and then found itself attacked by western powers.
they choose to not want to defend the nation and our culture, there are those of us who WILL and will criticize those like J Farmer who feels the exact same way and will scribe MASSIVE amounts of apologetics for that doctrine.
Except North Korea poses no significant threat to "the nation and our culture." There is no indication that deterrence cannot work against North Korea since it's been working for decades.
"There is no indication that deterrence cannot work against North Korea since it's been working for decades."
NK was supposed to be deterred from developing nuclear weapons. Now it is supposed to be deterred from using them. The original "deterrence" failed. True, there is no evidence that deterrence cannot work against them using their weapons. Until there is: when it is too late and the consequences would be pretty damn disastrous.
No doubt, regime survival is the Norks' primary goal. But they have been willing to tolerate very substantial damage to their people and economy, hence deterrence, even if our threats were credible, does not work against them the same way it has against other adversaries.
"There is no indication that deterrence cannot work against North Korea since it's been working for decades.
If it worked they would not be developing nuclear weapons.
@Sebastian:
But they have been willing to tolerate very substantial damage to their people and economy, hence deterrence, even if our threats were credible, does not work against them the same way it has against other adversaries.
Deterrence has been working for over five decades. What do you think is keeping the North Korean military on their side of the DMZ? If deterrence cannot work, why hasn't North Korea unleashed artillery on Seoul or sent its military to invade? Because it would be wiped out by a richer, more technologically advanced society.
@Rusty:
If it worked they would not be developing nuclear weapons.
Nuclear weapons are primarily a defensive weapon. It would make absolutely zero sense for the North Koreans to sacrifice what they have in their pursuit of nuclear weaponry to then turn around and launch a missile at the United States, knowing that the counterattack would totally destroy them? Plus, North Korea has been a nuclear power for more than a decade, and deterrence has worked.
Except North Korea poses no significant threat to "the nation and our culture." There is no indication that deterrence cannot work against North Korea since it's been working for decades.
Their nukes will be able to reach the West Coast first. Maybe then Liberals will decide that they might actually have some skin in the game at defending their nation.
And there are minor benefits: Nork children might actually have normal body weights, people won't need to fear their fellow citizens constantly, a great deal of their GDP can go to little things like food production and clothing instead of a DMZ, they might be open minded enough to appreciate art and culture. Fewer executions. Fewer prisons.
But that isn't anything that interests the Left because they aren't Republicans.
I always suspected Communism was a Bad Thing, and now these red cheerleaders confirm it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
"Deterrence has been working for over five decades."
Actually, no. In spite of severe costs imposed on them, they developed nuclear weapons. In spite of additional threats, they tested their weapons. Sure, they have been deterred from starting all out war. Other than that, not much.
A regime willing and able to endure any cost short of actual destruction of the regime itself cannot be deterred in the same way as our other adversaries.
Plus, North Korea has been a nuclear power for more than a decade, and deterrence has worked.
Clinton made a deal. They cheated.
Bush offered them a lot to stop them. They ignored him.
Obama was a limp wristed pacifist who had lots of sympathy for totalitarian regimes and in fact aided and abetted Iranian nuclear cheating...so he was totally indifferent to Nork.
Deterrence clearly has NOT worked. They are getting nukes. When they have a good one, we have no idea how an incredibly young and ideological idiot will use them.
HOPEFULLY his military will assassinate him if he tries to use them. Granted, they have been indoctrinated to obey for DECADES as well.
If college students will foul their own nests after just a few years of Marxist indoc, what do you think their military will do after DECADES of weeding and pruning?
I don't mind doing nothing, but if I give you latitude to do nothing, it might very well be necessary to do much worse things later than a little bit now.
@FIDO:
Their nukes will be able to reach the West Coast first. Maybe then Liberals will decide that they might actually have some skin in the game at defending their nation.
Again, it makes zero sense for the North to launch a nuclear first-strike that will get them nothing but total destruction. The Kim regime is brutal but it is not suicidal.
Sure, they have been deterred from starting all out war. Other than that, not much.
Being deterred from "start all out war" is not "not much." It is very significant. Perhaps you can answer a question I asked earlier. What has stopped the North Koreans from launching a conventional military strike against South Korea or US forces in the region?
Clinton made a deal. They cheated.
Bush offered them a lot to stop them. They ignored him.
I will point you to 5 Myths on Nuclear Diplomacy with North Korea by the Arms Control Association.
Obama was a limp wristed pacifist who...
Who escalated the war in Afghanistan, bringing the total troops levels there to 100,000. Who expanded the targeted assassination. Who waged war in seven countries in North Africa and the Middle East. The Bush administration policy on suspected terrorists was to kidnap them and torture them for information. The Obama administration policy was to kill them. That's about the strangest behavior for a "pacifist" I've ever seen.
What are the cheers? asks Ms A.
Well, If D Yoakam joins them at the second intermission or at the bottom of the hill to sing & dance to Suspicious Minds / Things Change, I may just flip over to watch. That might be interesting to see. Might even work between the last two ends of a curling match.
"Perhaps you can answer a question"
Sorry, Farmer, I don't play that game. Of course, I agree that regime survival is the main driving force. Hence they are "deterred" from doing the one thing that assures the worst outcome for them. But that works both ways: because we value the lives of South Koreans more than they value theirs, they know our worst threats are empty.
The problem now is that American policy makers have to decide how to respond to the small but not negligible chance of a catastrophic event, "deterrence" already having failed in stopping the second-worst event, namely the Nork acquisition of nuclear weapons and capable missiles.
Quite apart from strategic considerations, our long-term policy should be to remove the NK regime as an affront to humanity. No, that doesn't mean I advocate bombing tomorrow. But it does mean that in our assessment of the costs of action, the cost of inaction to the NK inmates should carry at least a little weight.
@Sebastian:
Hence they are "deterred" from doing the one thing that assures the worst outcome for them
Namely, going to war with the South. Considering that presumably that's what 25,000 troops are doing in the middle of the battle. So, if I am correct that you have conceded that conventional military deterrence has worked, it doesn't make sense to believe that nuclear deterrence will not.
The problem now is that American policy makers have to decide how to respond to the small but not negligible chance of a catastrophic event
The most credible strategy for containing the North Korean threat is through direct diplomatic engagement with the government. Daniel Larison's writings on this topic in The American Conservative are quite good. You can read his North Korea tagged posts here.
Quite apart from strategic considerations, our long-term policy should be to remove the NK regime as an affront to humanity.
It remains shocking to me that in the face of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Syria, there are people who still think "regime change" is a good idea. Never mind that we have no way of knowing if what replaces it could be just as bad or even worse. Plus, North Korea as a mutual defense treaty with China. A preventative war launched against North Korea could easily suck in the Chinese.
That is exactly right Regime change is part and parcel of the neocon globalist plan to start another war. To kill American boys in some misguided crusade to succor some miserable gooks. It is none of our damn business. They don't have any natural resources we want to steal. At least in the Middle East there was oil to steal. Now with fracking we can bring our boys home. What fuck does Korea have? Bad pop music and dog meat?
As far as the mention of Pearl Harbor you just prove my point. Japan was our ally in World War One. We needed to cede Asia as their sphere of influence and ally with them. Instead because FDR hated the Yellow Man so much he had to push our imperial ambitions. He put them in concentration camps.
We need to cede Asia to the Chinese. Take a lesson from Egypt and the Hittites. We can do business with them we don't have to get in a dick measuring contest
America First.
America first.
While we are talking about concrete examples the Olympics are in South Korea.
Some people think it would be better if South Korea was a part of North Korea and a totalitarian shithole state. They would rather South Korea wasn’t able to host the Olympics because the people were starving.
The Korean Peninsula is the object lesson in what the world with the US is like and what the world without the US is like.
"conventional military deterrence has worked" In holding off NK invasion of the south. Not in holding off nuclearization of the north. That introduces a new level of risk for us. Assurances of "deterrence works" become less reassuring the greater the risk to the U.S. itself, by an adversary not as amenable to traditional forms of pressure. Kim deliberately raised the stakes: mere conventional deterrence of us was not enough for him. The stakes having been raised, the risks of harm to the U.S. have also increased -- from nonexistent nuclear attack to small but nonnegligible risk.
"there are people who still think "regime change" is a good idea. Never mind that we have no way of knowing if what replaces it could be just as bad or even worse." Yes, I think regime change is a good idea for the people of North Korea. Of course we should "mind" the likely alternatives and the costs. But the costs of continued brutality in North Korea need to weigh in the balance as well. In the case of NK, it is difficult to imagine something "even worse." Of course, the process of getting there could be "worse."
@Achilles:
Some people think it would be better if South Korea was a part of North Korea and a totalitarian shithole state.
I don't doubt that "some people" do think that. I have never known any personally. Have you?
The Korean Peninsula is the object lesson in what the world with the US is like and what the world without the US is like.
That, of course, is a counterfactual we have no way of knowing. But even if we agreed on the correctness of fighting in the Korean civil war, that has no bearing on evaluating other military campaigns. This argument pops up constantly in interventionist arguments when some threadbare comparison is made between the events of today and some event in Europe in the 1930s. Except the second world war was a result of a particular set of historical circumstances that are utterly different from today's world.
@Sebastian:
The stakes having been raised, the risks of harm to the U.S. have also increased -- from nonexistent nuclear attack to small but nonnegligible risk.
Pakistan's nuclear weapons pose a "small but nonnegligible risk" as well. And yet the US is not trying to pressure Pakistan into giving them up. It believes (and I agree) that the risk is manageable.
In the case of NK, it is difficult to imagine something "even worse." Of course, the process of getting there could be "worse."
It is regular foreign policy folly to believe that things could not get worse. For one, a civil war in which various factions vied for power could occur. Also, North Korea's nuclear weaponry could fall into the hands of non-state actors. Or whoever emerged as the new leader of the North could be just as fanatical about nuclear weapons but could actually be an irrational actor who flamed out. Any of these scenarios (and many more I haven't dreamed up yet) could occur and would be significantly worse than the current situation.
It is also instructive, I think, that South Koreans, many of whom live within a few miles of the DMZ, are not nearly as hysterical about North Korea as the United States is thousands of miles away. South Koreans seem to rationally understand that continued deterrence of Kim Jung-Un is preferable in starting a war that could cost South Korea millions of lives, billions of dollars, and a huge refugee crisis for an uncertain unknowable "regime change" operation.
J. Farmer said...
I don't doubt that "some people" do think that. I have never known any personally. Have you?
I have never met Barrack Obama or Hillary Clinton but they used the government to spy on their political opponents.
They 100% want a police state like North Korea. Most of their voters are clearly just fine with it.
That, of course, is a counterfactual we have no way of knowing.
100% garbage and you know it. You are too smart not to know what South Korea would look like if the US had not intervened.
Your anti-interventionist arguments are not without merit. Have the courage to accept reality. I accept that any war is going to have tragedy. I have seen burning people first hand. They are obviously unhappy.
But even if we agreed on the correctness of fighting in the Korean civil war, that has no bearing on evaluating other military campaigns.
It absolutely has bearing. Leftists whitewash and ignore history. The douchebags slobbering over North Korean cheerleaders and Kim's Sister, the North Korean minister of propaganda, are dishonest enemies of freedom.
Don't be like them. Don't trash the motivations of honest people who fight for freedom.
This argument pops up constantly in interventionist arguments when some threadbare comparison is made between the events of today and some event in Europe in the 1930s. Except the second world war was a result of a particular set of historical circumstances that are utterly different from today's world.
We are never going to agree on the proper role of good people in response to evil. I believe good people need to fight just as hard as evil people do or evil people win. You disagree. Fine.
We can agree that at a certain point the US Government was infested by enemies of freedom and these people twisted US foreign policy. At this point the US Military is used for purposes that do not serve the interests of the US.
If we made the same commitment in Iraq that we made in Germany/Japan/Korea I believe after a generation we would have had a reasonably thriving nation like South Korea. Unfortunately we have enemies within like Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Joe Biden et al who knowingly destroyed any hope of that even after voting to go to war. It is clear at this point as well that the republican neocons have more in common with above traitors than they do with you and me.
We should have known these people would screw this up and should never have gone in until they were dealt with first. At this point I also believe that those people will undermine any effort we make and until they are removed from the government we cannot trust ourselves to intervene.
@Achilles:
100% garbage and you know it. You are too smart not to know what South Korea would look like if the US had not intervened.
I am smart enough to know that that question is unknowable and any claims to "know" are bullshit.
Don't be like them. Don't trash the motivations of honest people who fight for freedom.
Whose motivations have I trashed?
We are never going to agree on the proper role of good people in response to evil. I believe good people need to fight just as hard as evil people do or evil people win. You disagree. Fine.
So is it "evil" for an absolute monarchy to destroy and starve its neighbor and oppress political enemies through torture, arbitrary imprisonment, and summary executions, while simultaneously funding and arming radical salafi jihadists to wage guerrilla war campaigns? If so, when does the bombing of Riyadh begin?
If we made the same commitment in Iraq that we made in Germany/Japan/Korea I believe after a generation we would have had a reasonably thriving nation like South Korea.
So after just a generation, which would be around 25-30 years, of continued military occupation, the Kurds would no longer want a separate state, and the tribal differences between the east of the country and the west will be settled, and then representative democracy will work just fine. Though I guess Iraq, being a majority Shia country, would still be in Iran's orbit. I just think that is absolute fantasy.
And weren't you not so long enough telling me that Afghanistan was an easily winnable war once the rules of engagement were loosened? And yet, a year into Trump's administration, with those rules loosened and with additional troops, victory is no more in sight than it was before. Not only is the Tablian active in over 75% of the country, it has recently been able to pull off large scale attacks that have gotten hundreds of people killed, including in one of the most fortified and secure areas of Kabul.
"continued deterrence of Kim Jung-Un is preferable in starting a war that could cost South Korea millions of lives, billions of dollars, and a huge refugee crisis for an uncertain unknowable "regime change" operation." Hence my point about getting there being "worse." But things can also get better. It is foreign policy folly to use ignorance to stifle efforts to achieve change--military or otherwise. Of course, I am a conservative and have low expectations.
Sure, all kinds of nastiness can result from regime change, but from the point of view of the North Korean people it is hard to think of any society being "worse." Their suffering is an ongoing cost. Nice touch, by the way, to refer to a scenario in which NK nuclear weapons could fall into the hands of an "irrational" actor.
Of course, I did not say that the nonnegligible risk couldn't be "managed." But Kim has raised the stakes. If the assumption that deterrence works is false, the costs to us have increased. That must change our calculations and our actions, hence the way we "manage" the NK problem.
@Sebastian:
It is foreign policy folly to use ignorance to stifle efforts to achieve change--military or otherwise
I actually believe that it is the job of the US government to protect the interests of Americans. And given US foreign policy's abysmal record in this regard, we should be highly suspicious of attempting it yet again.
Of course, I am a conservative and have low expectations.
Blowing up a state and trying to build a new one in its place is about the most unconservative thing a person could advocate. The central insight of conservatism is to be highly suspicious of revolutions.
Sure, all kinds of nastiness can result from regime change, but from the point of view of the North Korean people it is hard to think of any society being "worse."
One plagued by civil war and factional fighting would be a lot worse. Plus, you neglect that a nuclear-powered country is on North Korea's borders and has a mutual defense pact with the North. Your actions could potentially trigger a nuclear exchange between the US and China. And that would be orders of magnitude worse than the current situation.
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