[A] comprehensive scientific review of research... finds that eating more protein, well past the amounts currently recommended, can significantly augment the effects of lifting weights, especially for people past the age of 40....I'm very interested to read that this morning. I was just getting my breakfast — coffee with milk and peanut butter on toast — and noticing, suddenly, that I'd unintentionally turned into a vegetarian.
Here's the second-highest rated comment at the NYT:
There has never been a reported case of protein deficiency. This is a persistent myth perpetrated by the meat and dairy industries. You can get all the protein you need from plant foods. So many athletes and body builders are now eating whole food plant-based diets and report being stronger, have more energy and feel better. Articles like this are infuriating because they cause more confusion for a public already being hoodwinked and bamboozled by the food industry.The highest-rated comment worries about damage to the kidneys from too much protein. I did immediately notice a 2016 article linked in the sidebar: "Can You Get Too Much Protein?" ("Studies show that protein-rich diets do not preserve muscle mass over the long term, and doctors have long cautioned that a high-protein diet can lead to kidney damage in those who harbor silent kidney disease by putting extra strain on the kidneys. Up to one in three Americans are at risk for kidney impairment because of high blood pressure or diabetes, according to the National Kidney Foundation.")
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Articles like this are infuriating because they cause more confusion for a public already being hoodwinked and bamboozled by the food industry.
As opposed to articles promoting "whole food plant-based diets" diets (wtf is with the descriptor "whole food" anyway? Like the grocery store?) which I'm sure of course could never have big nefarious industries behind it? Good grief, what a bunch of nonsense.
There are some studies which suggest young women who are vegetarians find it more difficult to get pregnant.
I wonder what’s missing?
It’s been a long time since I did a lot of lifting, but the way it was explained to me if you’re pushing yourself properly then you’re tearing down muscle fiber, which your body promptly starts rebuilding stronger than before. You help your body by eating more protein. I hope this isn’t something I “know” that isn’t true. I suppose I should follow Glenn Reynolds’ advice and buy Mark Rippetoe’s book (but use the Althouse Amazon portal).
Best meal on earth is still Steak and eggs. And weight lifting is a must for all ages.
York Barbell sets are sold on the Althouse Amazon portal, and they look real pretty. I still have most of my first ugly set which arrived by a semi truck from Pennsylvania on my twelfth birthday. Billy Cannon was right. They don't make you muscle bound. They make you strong and that makes you more coordinated.
@Seeing Red, if Althouse really has turned herself into a vegetarian, then she’s the only one I know who isn’t a harridan. What’s missing, obviously, is manly men with viable sperm willing to put up with a harridan.
Breakfast today was bacon and eggs and half an English muffin. And coffee. How did mankind survive before the first coffee plants were discovered?
@Big Mike ...Coffee and tobacco must be a done together to do it right. That is one long lost remembrance of the good old days.
We are learning that diet is much more complicated than we thought. Each of us respond slightly differently to what we consume and, what may be the right proportion of one type of food for one person might not be appropriate for another. Similarly, what was right for me in my 20's, may change over time. My wife, for example, used to love dairy products. She can no longer eat them. So, when someone says that you can get all the protein you need from plant products, he or she might be right -- but only for some people. Some people's body chemistry doesn't allow them to access the all the proteins that they need from plants.
Strength is money. It used to be that old age was a time of poverty, before people learned to plan for retirement. Now old age is a time of weakness, because people don't build nest egg of strength.
I agree with Big Mike about Starting Strength. For the over forty crowd, there is now The Barbell Prescription from Rippetoe's group.
"if Althouse really has turned herself into a vegetarian, then she’s the only one I know who isn’t a harridan."
She has been kinda cranky lately.
Since plant protein sources do not have all six necessary amino acids, it takes careful planning and cooking to get complete protein from a vegan diet. A vegetarian diet which includes milk and cheese makes it easier, and better yet, eggs. For most of us who don't invest the time and planning required, an egg or two a day at the very least is a healthier option. My friend who is prone to kidney stones watches how much protein she eats. A rule of thumb I found online is one gram of protein daily per kg of body weight. Multiply your weight in pounds by .454 to get kilos.
Weight training is indeed the best way to stay fit! I have a bench and a set of hand weights at home. So far I don't use anything over twenty pounds (per hand), and my doctor says my fitness and bone age scans are "awesome" for my age. My husband uses a bar for presses.
Nature designed us to be baby-making machines.
Beyond that it seems a bit unnatural to make great efforts to persist.
Survival instincts are there for a reason, and its not in order to keep the infertile around.
For what it's worth, even the most stringent anti-carbohydrate dietary advice with which I'm familiar encourages a low-carbohydrate, high fat, moderate protein diet. It's just that, compared to the post-WWII "standard American diet" that's largely a recapitulation of New Deal subsidized agricultural policy self-servingly masquerading as dietary science, "moderate protein" looks positively insane.
Source: my wife's narcolepsy type I responding to a sub-50-grams-per-day low-carb diet, and by doing nothing more than eating what she cooked, switching to diet soft drinks, and keeping a loose eye on carbs when eating out—only eating a quarter of the french fries or half the baked potato, only using half the BBQ sauce or salad dressing, and skipping dessert—dropping 52 pounds in one year and going from pre-pre-diabetic to clean.
This has become a problem for me in recent years. I can still improve my aerobic fitness if I put my mind to it but adding muscle has become very difficult, if not impossible. It is somewhat depressing that despite investing considerable effort aging still wins.
buwaya said...
Beyond that it seems a bit unnatural to make great efforts to persist.
Quality of life in old age is one very good reason. There is not much point living to 80 if you can't move.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQ3VZbAWgAAewzi.jpg:large
"So many athletes and body builders are now eating whole food plant-based diets and report being stronger, have more energy and feel better."
No. There are a few vocal ones, but that is not even remotely the norm.
@B-ARM - I was getting the same results (mid 5’s) until I switched to a modified 5x5 plan. Big gainzzzzz.
Still skipping leg day ... since 1986.
-XC
"Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
This has become a problem for me in recent years. I can still improve my aerobic fitness if I put my mind to it but adding muscle has become very difficult, if not impossible. It is somewhat depressing that despite investing considerable effort aging still wins."
Lift weights. I do a push/pull/legs program morning Mon-Sat and add cardio in the evenings 3-4 times per week. It works. I started about a year ago right after my first hip replacements...with a few months off last spring because of my second hip replacement and two follow up surgeries because of infections I contracted. It's amazing how fast gains are seen. I will be 61 in May.
buwaya said...
Beyond that it seems a bit unnatural to make great efforts to persist.
I've always though the U.S. does things exactly backwards, in terms of Social Security, Medicare, etc. Society has an interest in ensuring children grow up to be healthy, self-sufficient adults. Toward that end, it also has an interest in supporting families with young children. Once your children are grown, society's interest in keeping you alive should drop to near zero. ( Your own interest in keeping yourself alive is perfectly valid, but nobody else's problem. )
I'm not saying we should confiscate money from the old to give to the young, but at the very least we should stop confiscating money from the young to give to the old.
IsiB:
Social Security and Medicare are only paid by the young to pay for the old because politicians have determined that raiding these funds for general purpose is okay. But I have paid dearly into both to cover what I will get out of it.
Two tablespoons of peanut butter has eight grams of protein.
Curious George said...
But I have paid dearly into both to cover what I will get out of it.
You have paid in much less than you are likely to get out. ( You have paid in enough that, if properly invested, you would have much more than what you are likely to get out. But it wasn't properly invested. )
Politicians, both past and present, screwed us over on Social Security. That does not give us the right to screw over our children.
Strength, like aerobic fitness, is a Use-it-or-lose-it proposition. We were designed by nature to shed excess capacity because maintaining it has a metabolic cost and starvation was always a threat. If you weren't using that muscle on a regular basis you were *wasting calories* carting that muscle around.
I'm almost sixty. I started doing weight training (Starting Strength, specifically) a year ago because after years of sedentary jobs I felt slow, and stiff and weak. I'm considerably stronger than I was a year ago, even despite a two-month hiatus for surgery. Not as strong as I want to be, yet, but stronger. Weight training and more protein: it works. It would have worked much, much better when I was in my 20s, but even now it works.
I can't trust any of these articles and studies because they are sure to change, and change recommendations, tomorrow. And I most certainly won't take advice from anonymous and semi-anonymous commenters at a website.
-sw
Each of us respond slightly differently to what we consume and, what may be the right proportion of one type of food for one person might not be appropriate for another."
I suspect that's right, although that is unscientifically based on my own observation. I did not thrive when I briefly experimented with vegetarianism but I know people who do (and fortunately, they are not the preachy, holier-than-thou "Meat is Murder" types. They don't care what anybody else eats.) Carbs and sweets are my downfall and they make me feel sluggish and so I limit them. But my Italian boyfriend can eat pasta 4 or 5 times a week (normally as a starter - I'm not talking about a pound of spaghetti on a plate) and it doesn't damage his waistline as long as he works out.
I used to be a firm believer in the notion of a balanced diet. I still think that using moderation, portion control and regular exercise are the most important things you can do to stay fit and healthy. But it does look as if what exactly those balances are might vary from person to person.
You have to find out what works for you, rather than jumping on every fad diet or article that comes out, because it seems like the nutrition advice changes every few months.
"Ignorance is Bliss said...
Curious George said...
But I have paid dearly into both to cover what I will get out of it.
You have paid in much less than you are likely to get out. ( You have paid in enough that, if properly invested, you would have much more than what you are likely to get out. But it wasn't properly invested. )
Politicians, both past and present, screwed us over on Social Security. That does not give us the right to screw over our children."
Paid in less than I'll get out? Bullshit. And if I die tomorrow, I'll get nothing. Would I be better off having been able to keep the money and invest it? Of course. That's fantasy land though. I wasn't. And sorry, SS needs to be fixed, but not by fucking me over.
"Two tablespoons of peanut butter has eight grams of protein."
I'm sure I get more than enough protein: peanut butter, cheese, milk, yogurt, whole grain bread. It's plenty.
Heaven forbid one should eat too much of that most unfashionable protein, gluten.
"There has never been a reported case of protein deficiency."
Rare in the USA, but common enough worldwide that it has a name.
"Widespread in sub-Saharan Africa and common in Southeast Asia and Central America, kwashiorkor occurs in young children living in areas with endemic food insecurity or famine; prevalence varies by geographic area, with reported levels ranging up to 6% in some chronic food-insecure communities..."
It’s true. Too much protein is a burden on the kidneys. We don’t need massive amounts of protein. People in kidney failure must be especially careful. Some proteins are also inflammatory, so people with inflammatory conditions might want to go easy on the milk protein.
Protein and the CKD patient. When protein is ingested, protein waste products are created. ... Unhealthy kidneys lose the ability to remove protein waste and it starts to build up in the blood. Dietary protein intake for patients with CKD is based on the stage of kidney disease, nutrition status and body size.
Protein Allergy/Intolerance. ... While casein protein has been implicated in more cases of milk protein problems than whey, both milk proteins can cause similar issues. This is due to the fact that in some individuals, casein and whey can cause an excessive inflammatory immune response. This leads to mucous production.
me too. i eat eggs but otherwise no meat anymore. it just happened. no effort, no intent. i feel bad for my kids.
Then there’s the protein rich in animal fat, maybe less worrisome regarding cholesterol than previously thought, but more inflammatory.
The research: Researchers at the University of Navarra in Spain recruited 96 obese adults to follow a reduced calorie diet consisting of either 30% or 15% protein for 8 weeks. Body composition measurements and blood samples were taken at the start and end of the study; vegetable, meat, and fish protein intakes were recorded throughout. After 8 weeks, both groups lost nearly the same amount of weight and fat, but participants who got more of their protein from meat had higher levels of inflammation compared to participants who consumed mostly fish or plant-based sources of protein.
What it means: Inflammation contributes to a number of diseases, such as heart disease, stroke, and cancer. And meat contains several compounds that promote the detrimental process, like saturated fat and iron, says lead study author Patricia Lopez-Legarrea, a nutrition and food science researcher. During the cooking process, high-fat, high-protein animal foods also develop advanced glycation end products (AGEs), which contribute to inflammation and degenerative diseases like diabetes and atherosclerosis.
https://www.prevention.com/food/healthy-eating-tips/fish-and-plant-based-proteins-reduce-inflammation
I have little doubt one could gain strength while getting all of their protein from plant sources, but it is certainly easier and more enjoyable to get a lot of it from meat.
I lift and have found that the most important dietary consideration for gaining strength is caloric excess. If I don't eat a lot, I don't gain strength. When I lose weight from dieting, I start to see a decay in strength. I keep track of every single lift I do and so I don't have to rely on memory. When I diet, I still eat a lot of protein, so protein + lifting are not sufficient for strength gains. This makes sense: Your body does not want to devote resources to muscle building when it is trying to conserve calories.
Body builders will do a two phase training: Eat a lot and build muscle, diet to remove the flab that hides the muscle.
There has never been a reported case of protein deficiency.
You mean starvation? I beg to differ.
And this.
"In my video Which Type of Protein Is Better for Our Kidneys?, I discuss how the Western-style diet is a major risk factor for impaired kidney function and chronic kidney disease. Also known as “the meat-sweet diet or standard American diet,” it causes an impairment of kidney blood flow, inflammation, subsequent leakage of protein in the urine, and a rapid decrease in kidney function. Table sugar and high-fructose corn syrup are associated with increased blood pressure and uric acid levels, both of which can damage the kidney. The saturated fat, trans fat, and cholesterol found in animal fat and junk food negatively impact kidney function, as well.
The consumption of animal fat can actually alter the structure of the kidney, and animal protein can deliver an acid load to the kidneys, increase ammonia production, and damage the sensitive kidney cells. This is why restricting protein intake is recommended for preventing kidney function decline—though it may be animal protein in particular that may need restricting, not just protein in general. So, the source of the protein, plant versus animal, may be more important than the amount regarding adverse health consequences."
https://nutritionfacts.org/2018/02/08/the-effect-of-animal-protein-on-the-kidneys/?utm_source=NutritionFacts.org&utm_campaign=3588f4fd86-RSS_BLOG_DAILY&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_40f9e497d1-3588f4fd86-23989761&mc_cid=3588f4fd86&mc_eid=a6ea648216
I think there’s a natural reason that older adults prefer less animal protein, our bodies don’t tolerate it as well. Protein creates a lot of waste product in the body, not just the GI system. I’ve noticed it in myself also. I used to be a big meat eater, craved it. As I’ve aged I actually prefer meat as more of a flavoring for the food I eat than the main course
Just be sure if you're doing the vegan thing that you're supplementing with B12 - or consuming B12 fortified foods. B12 deficiency can cause serious health issues. Many older people who cut down on meat - perhaps as Inga states that it isn't tolerated - can begin to exhibit signs of dementia. This can sometimes be attributed to impaired digestion caused by a decrease in stomach acid so they aren't able to properly break down what they eat. B12 - something meat provides when digested and assimilated - deficiency can cause issues with your brain, mimicing dementia.
*mimicKing
“This can sometimes be attributed to impaired digestion caused by a decrease in stomach acid so they aren't able to properly break down what they eat. B12 - something meat provides when digested and assimilated - deficiency can cause issues with your brain, mimicing dementia.”
Older adults also may have problems secreting enough digestive enzymes, thereby not breaking down the proteins, fats, carbs, etc. that they used to. The pancreas ages too. A good digestive enzyme does wonders. Older people should also be careful with proton pump inhibitors for the reasons ( and more) that Karen stated.
More protein than what? The typical American, and even vegans, eat more than enough protein to grow muscle. What's generally needed for muscle hypertrophy is sufficient exercise of the right type, and the right hormones.
This may be anti-science, but I thought the best observation about eating was to look to your ancestors. If they were from the Mediterranean, the foods that were consumed there probably would work for you. Germans would subsist on a different diet.
As for veganism, do they realize how much they depend on the food industrial complex for their products?
Also this.
"Researchers have shown that a more plant-based diet may help prevent, treat, or reverse some of our leading causes of death, including heart disease, type 2 diabetes, and high blood pressure. Interventional studies of plant-based diets have shown, for example, 90 percent reductions in angina attacks within just a few weeks. Plant-based diet intervention groups have reported greater diet satisfaction than control groups, as well as improved digestion, increased energy, and better sleep, and significant improvement in their physical functioning, general health, vitality, and mental health. Studies have shown plant-based eating can improve not only body weight, blood sugar levels, and ability to control cholesterol, but also emotional states, including depression, anxiety, fatigue, sense of well-being, and daily functioning."
https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/plant-based-diets/
The one glaringly obvious point that I glean from all these studies, articles, and non-professional advice about diet and human health is this: there is not a one-size-fits-all ideal diet.
-sw
This is a persistent myth perpetrated by the meat and dairy industries
Now we have Big Meat to worry about.
There are some studies which suggest young women who are vegetarians find it more difficult to get pregnant.
I wonder what’s missing?
The Meat Filling
Two tablespoons of peanut butter has eight grams of protein.
When Ms. Althouse eats about 10 more tablespoons, she will be on track for her minimum protein intake.
Bill Peschel said
"This may be anti-science, but I thought the best observation about eating was to look to your ancestors. If they were from the Mediterranean, the foods that were consumed there probably would work for you"
Oh goody! Cabbage and boiled potatoes everyday!
The Czechs are the Irish of Eastern Europe. Great beer. Food, not so much.
The subject is mostly about protein intake but I would just like to sing the praises of weight lifting. I have never let myself get out of shape, but I didn't start lifting weights until I was around 53. I am now 60. Even this late in life I was able to transform my body. Most 20 year-olds would be envious. Late spring I was diagnosed with tongue cancer, which had spread to the lymph nodes on the right side of my neck. Before treatment I weighed 167 lbs; by the time everything was over I was down to 127 lbs. A month after my last radiation treatment I went back to the gym. Two months later I had climbed to just over 140 lbs. Most of the weight gain was from just being able to consume more calories (all from protein drinks, because I wasn't able to eat anything). But also because I was starting to gain muscle mass from lifting. I had a doctor's appointment at the time where I was told that I shouldn't expect to gain much more weight. I was taken aback, to say the least. However, I am happy to report that I was able to prove him wrong. Six months after my last treatment (which happened to coincide with my 60th birthday) I am now back over 160 lbs. Most of that gain is from increased muscle mass.
"This may be anti-science, but I thought the best observation about eating was to look to your ancestors. If they were from the Mediterranean, the foods that were consumed there probably would work for you"
I guess I am supposed to revert to anchovies, squid and sheep.
Tangential, but for what it's worth:
There's a hell of a lot of land on this planet that's good for one thing and one thing only: growing grass. And people can't eat grass. But cattle cam amd are really good at converting it into edible (and tasty) protein.
Eat meat. Lift weights. Don't make it complicated.
Health and diet encompasses very complicated biochemistry that is beyond science, sort of like string theory. Most people who think they are smart and think science is smart get conned into believing that "studies" provide "answers". The veganists and the meat-head weightlifters are making political statements and should be ignored.
Humans are designed to thrive on very wide and very narrow diets. It's what makes us so portable, along with sweating and being big-head bipedalists.
That said, it is likely that cheap, plentiful highly refined sugar and carbohydrates are responsible for the rich country epidemic of metabolic disorders. It's not about getting enough protein, it's about reducing the mass flux of sugars processed by the liver.
Most everything else is virtue signalling politics expressed through diet.
@John Scott
I am glad you are doing so well. That sounds rough.
One reason to try to stay in good shape is so that you have better ability to fight through adversity when it comes.
Thank you Ann.
Friends kept telling me that, and I believed it, but I have to say that I went through bouts of depression when I wasn't recovering like I thought I would. A lot of 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
"plentiful highly refined sugar and carbohydrates are responsible for the rich country epidemic of metabolic disorders."
Its interesting what countries are being hit with this 'rich country' epidemic.
The Philippines is in a worse state, probably, than the US. There is advertising all over about diabetes treatments - and these are huge billboards in provincial towns -we saw the things all over seven provinces. Drugstores have well-marked diabetes aisles. You won't see that in the US.
Same, or nearly so, is the case in Mexico I understand.
In both places its probably from the same cause, an over-sugared over-carbed diet. The population evolved for rice and fish and vegetables, not milkshakes.
Yeah - the science of nutrition is at an interesting place right now. They are overhauling a lot of stuff that they got wrong for the last 40 years based on some bad (or misinterpreted) studies, and there is considerable resistance. On top of that, there are a lot of people pushing too far in the opposite direction.
Bottom line is that this kind of thing is really hard. People don't know what exactly they eat, they have a lot of trouble following guidelines, and the studies have a lot of trouble sorting out what caused which result.
Eventually it will be worked out, but a lot of that is going to have to wait until they can actually see what's happening, however they will manage that. Being able to see what's happening is the trick that makes real medicine actually work. Right now all we (usually) see is your total weight and a couple of other crude measures. Not enough.
There are some studies which suggest young women who are vegetarians find it more difficult to get pregnant.
I wonder what’s missing?
A man?
Articles like this are infuriating because they cause more confusion for a public already being hoodwinked and bamboozled by the food industry.
It is the organic/vegan crusaders that are trying to hoodwink people. I won't bother with the organic lesson, it's just not worth the effort any more. The idea that vegetarian or vegan lifestyle is healthier is a scam. It is possible that a vegetarian diet will be better for some people, but it is not a universal improvement over an omnivore diet. Eating meat is an efficient way of getting the protein we need. Some people have difficulty processing meat and are better off substituting a less efficient means of obtaining the required protein. In other words, a vegetarian may need to use a less efficient means or they may choose to use a less efficient means of obtaining needed protein.
Veganism is very much a diet that is not good or efficient at supplying the body with all the nutrients necessary. While some people experience better health, it is not the vegan diet itself, but rather the end of even worse eating habits. My sister was an early vegan before it became popular. It was a health nightmare early on as trying to find a vegan food supply that provided needed nourishment was very difficult. She didn't become a vegan for health reasons. It actually harmed her health. She became a vegan because she became a believer in the vegan philosophy, which is that using animals as a food source is wrong.
Since it is a strong belief, a religious enlightenment if you will, it is important to believers that other people choose not to exploit animals. And so they hoodwink people into believing it is healthy choice to be a vegan. They don't really care what the rationale is as long as animal lives are saved.
I was admonished to drink my milk. Little did I realize how evil that was. It's just another example of the virtue signaling, look at me generation who will never question the dogma of their new religion.
I'm 55 and have never been in better shape and I've been a gym rat since the late 1980s. I haven't really lost any strength at all, though I don't usually do as much weight as I used to because I don't like being injured as much. (Well, not like I ever did. . . .). Mostly I improved because I started paying attention to my shoulders and doing dead lifts which is the one thing I credit Reynolds' BF Rippetoe with.
That said, the only dietary things I've found make any difference at all -- and I've tried the high-protein thing, among others -- is pasta the night before (I start working out around 6 am), and hydrating with like 20 oz before going to the gym.
What a great thread, with everyone offering interesting & helpful info. I enjoy the lively debates on political and social issues as much as the next person (I've been hanging around here since Kerry lost Ann) but this one feels a bit like being home for the holidays and for once everyone in the normally quarrelsome family is being pleasant to one another.
""This may be anti-science, but I thought the best observation about eating was to look to your ancestors."
I hope that's true. Mine were Corded Ware, so bring on the beef.
High protein diet works. I've been on a high protein diet for the past 3 months and i have lost about 25 pounds. I also used diet supplements from life extensions. they have great supplements. you can check them out at https://tinyurl.com/yb3sjy7z
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