January 4, 2018

"A new law meant to curtail hate speech on social media in Germany is stifling free speech and making martyrs out of anti-immigrant politicians whose posts are deleted..."

"...the top-selling Bild newspaper said on Thursday."
The law which took effect on Jan. 1 can impose fines of up to 50 million euros ($60 million) on sites that fail to remove hate speech promptly. Twitter has deleted anti-Muslim and anti-migrant posts by the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) and blocked a satirical account that parodied Islamophobia.

"Please spare us the thought police!" read a headline in Wednesday's Bild above an article that called the law a "sin" against freedom of opinion enshrined in Germany's constitution.

97 comments:

mockturtle said...

I'm against ALL hate speech laws but no way will Germany be even-handed about it by suppressing jihadist propaganda even when it's clearly anti-Semitic. [I know that Arabs are also Semitic peoples but we have accustomed ourselves to using the term to denote Jews]. No, 'hate speech' comes only from the Right. Just like in the US.

Fernandistein said...

We were laughing at the goofy Germans a few minutes ago -

Violent crime rises in Germany and is attributed to refugees
"The study said reuniting refugees with their families by allowing them to come to Germany too could help to reduce violence."

H.T. Sailer.

n.n said...

Anti-native hate speech depressed civil rights, and progressed immigration reform (e.g. refugee crises).

Oso Negro said...

Freedom of speech isn’t really a German value. In fact, what they value is you keeping your fucking mouth shut. Except in porn videos, of course.

gspencer said...

“The three most important issues of our time are Free Speech, Free Speech, and Free Speech. Only by saying what needs to be said can we do what needs to be done.”

Bosch Fawstin,

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/01/from-banned-for-good-from-twitter-for-hateful-conduct-to-a-mistake

Kevin said...

Hate speech laws are written by people who hate speech.

Expat(ish) said...

I've had this discussion many times with my friends in the UK.

I claim the right of free speech wherever I am because I believe it is a natural born right, recognized in our founding documents.

I also believe that my UK friends have the same right, but if they choose to bend a knee to bland tyranny, that is their right too.

-XC

MaxedOutMama said...

They have backed themselves into a bad corner over there.

Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...

Unexpectedly ...

J. Farmer said...

Violent crime rises in Germany and is attributed to refugees

Of course, who has time to worry about rising actual violence when there are people being mean on Twitter?

EDH said...

So you can't bash Trump in Germany?

Maybe that was the secret to David Hasselhoff's success?

mockturtle said...

Anyone who has spent any time at all in the UK or the European continent knows that 'Free Speech' is uniquely American.

Ken B said...

Merkel can never be the worst chancellor. I do kinda feel she exploits that.

Freeman Hunt said...

"The law which took effect on Jan. 1 can impose fines of up to 50 million euros ($60 million) on sites that fail to remove hate speech promptly."

Fifty million Euros? Was the extremity of the possible fine selected for comedic effect? That's just silly. You probably pay a lesser fine for an unsafe work environment that kills someone.

Freeman Hunt said...

Is it possible to be so offensive that one causes $60 million of pain and suffering? Only if your people are weaker than children.

Bob Boyd said...

The German government brought in a million Muslims and now they find it increasingly necessary to rule Germany the way Muslim countries are ruled.

traditionalguy said...

Voltaire affirmed again. " When you want to know who rules over you, simply ask whom it is you cannot criticize"

The New Wold Order is using an armed Muslim invaders today the same way it used the Nazis army of thugs in 1933. This time they "founded ISIS" in Syria to get it done.

Ken B said...

Freeman Hunt
Your mistake is thinking that the German government values the lives or safety of Germans. As we have seen, that is not true.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

A new law meant to curtail hate speech on social media in Germany is stifling free speech...

Stifling free speech is precisely what the law was designed to do, not some unintended side effect. Hate speech ( excluding clear threats ) is a subset of free speech. Curtailing hate speech is, by definition, stifling free speech.

jwl said...

Mockturtle we didn't really have free speech in Canada either. Canadians can say what they like in their homes but we are regulated once we leave our house.

I think America's first amendment is one of best laws ever written, anywhere or anytime, that law makes America better and more dynamic than all other countries.

jwl said...

We didn't really = we don't really

Fernandistein said...

a "sin" against freedom of opinion enshrined in Germany's constitution.

Article 5 [Freedom of expression]

(1) Every person shall have the right freely to express and disseminate his opinions in speech, writing, and pictures and to inform himself without hindrance from generally accessible sources. Freedom of the press and freedom of reporting by means of broadcasts and films shall be guaranteed. There shall be no censorship.

(2) These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal honor.

++++

IOW,
(1) You have free speech rights.
(2) Well, close enough for government work.

Quite a few of their other "rights" are subordinate to the State, as in, quote, "These rights may be interfered with only pursuant to a law."

Heh - The Beatles singing "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" in German just came on. Hail Victory!

Oso Negro said...

@jwl - it is a swell law! If only it applied everywhere in our society!

Big Mike said...

Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany and communist leaders like Walter Ulbricht and Erich Honecker. You can take the politician out of East Germany, but can you take East Germany out of the politician?

Sigivald said...

"They censor us because they can't argue against us" is always the reply to censorship.

You'd think Germany would have learned this over the past 60-some years, but I guess not?

jwl said...

Jordan Peterson, a professor in Toronto, has become famous in last year because of his resistance to trans people and their gender pronouns.

exhelodrvr1 said...

Burn the offensive web sites!

robother said...

Well at least those Muslim refugee rapists aren't engaging in hate speech. So they've got that going for them.

robother said...

Statistics don't lie: but they do engage in Hate Speech.

n.n said...

Violent crime rises in Germany and is attributed to refugees

Progressive consequences caused by immigration reform that exceeds the rate of assimilation and integration. It probably doesn't help that these aliens were uprooted by Merkel-backed social justice adventures in their native lands, and the survivors from the trail settled on the land she manages, next to the people of her diversity class.

Fernandistein said...

traditionalguy said...
Voltaire affirmed again. " When you want to know who rules over you, simply ask whom it is you cannot criticize"


The actual author of that quote is a neo-Nazi, Holocaust denier, and an aficionado of kiddie porn -

"The statement "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" is often attributed to Voltaire, the French Enlightenment writer, historian and philosopher. In fact, it is something said by Strom in his program, "All America Must Know the Terror That is Upon Us" (1993): "To determine the true rulers of any society, all you must do is ask yourself this question: Who is it that I am not permitted to criticize?" The misattributed quotation continues to spread across the Internet."

Virgil Hilts said...

Germany needs to learn that the reason is has such a fucked up history is not so much because people in the past felt and expressed bad ideas, but rather because so many Germans assumed then & still assume now that its somehow part of the government's job to police what people think and say.

Christopher said...

I forget which pundit pointed it out, but when, a few months ago, some antifas said the lack of hate speech laws was one reason the actual Nazis were able to gain power in Germany, he said the opposite was true. Nazis were not infrequently fined and jailed in Weimar Germany for violating speech bans, which go figure made them popular martyrs.

Christopher said...

I forget which pundit pointed it out, but when, a few months ago, some antifas said the lack of hate speech laws was one reason the actual Nazis were able to gain power in Germany, he said the opposite was true. Nazis were not infrequently fined and jailed in Weimar Germany for violating speech bans, which go figure made them popular martyrs.

n.n said...

trans people and their gender pronouns

For one, the transgender spectrum is comprehensive, but political congruence ("=") is selective/exclusive.

Drago said...

Socialists cutting off speech rights.

I. Did. Not. See. That. Coming.

exiledonmainstreet said...

Fernandistein said...
We were laughing at the goofy Germans a few minutes ago -

Violent crime rises in Germany and is attributed to refugees
"The study said reuniting refugees with their families by allowing them to come to Germany too could help to reduce violence."


As goofy as that is, it was topped by Canada’s boy ruler, Justin “Dreamboat” Trudeau, who welcomed back 60 ISIS jihadis and said Canada can not only rehabilitate them, but learn about violent extremism from them.

The people shot in San Bernardino and Orlando also received a valuable lesson about violent extremism. Unfortunately learning something three quarters of a second before you die doesn’t help you very much.

robother said...

"...still assume now that its somehow part of the government's job to police what people think and say."

In that sense, I guess Angela is right that the products of Sharia Law are a great fit.

steve uhr said...

The government puts the onus and risk on Facebook. Twitter. Etc. obviously they will err on the side of finding something hate speech Ann he alternative is a fine of tens of millions . If the state is gong to ban hate speech - a really bad idea -- they should go after the speaker and not the mode of transmission.

n.n said...

When you want to know who rules over you, simply ask whom it is you cannot criticize

Judge a quote by the content of its principles, not the color of its principals.

Mac McConnell said...

Funny Germany did the same thing to Hitler's political group and things turned out badly.

hombre said...

Censorship brought to you by the descendants of those who gave us the National Socialist Party.

walter said...

Word Nazis

CJinPA said...

Twitter has deleted anti-Muslim and anti-migrant posts by the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) and blocked a satirical account that parodied Islamophobia.

Traditional journalism standards would require quotes around "Islamophobia," which is a political term. Speech restrictions can be imposed voluntarily, too.

Bay Area Guy said...

The Germans had their lives wrecked by the National Socialist Party, and then saved by the good ole USA. Their lesson?

Nationalism bad; socialism good.

Some folks never learn.

CJinPA said...

BTW, "hate" is a politicized word, too. We have specific words for that which can make up "hate": "prejudice," "bigotry," "racism," "discrimination," etc. When a new word is introduced - or an existing word redefined - to make communication LESS clear, rather than more clear, it's political.

mockturtle said...

Fernandistein asserts: "The statement "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" is often attributed to Voltaire, the French Enlightenment writer, historian and philosopher. In fact, it is something said by Strom in his program, "All America Must Know the Terror That is Upon Us" (1993): "To determine the true rulers of any society, all you must do is ask yourself this question: Who is it that I am not permitted to criticize?" The misattributed quotation continues to spread across the Internet."

Since Voltaire preceded Strom by a couple of centuries, is it not possible---even likely--that Voltaire also made the statement? En français, of course.

Robert Cook said...

ALL laws against "hate speech" violate the right to free speech, in our country no less than in Germany. They turn one's thoughts into crimes. There is no simply no defense for laws that make punishment more severe for crimes motivated by bias than by the same crimes spurred by other motivations, (such as greed).

Tim at large said...

Truth would be a defense in the US, but like they say, you can take the girl out of East Germany, but you can't take East Germany out of the girl.

rhhardin said...

(HH: You make me laugh.)

MARK: But why go to Germany? It's the only place in the world where humor is actually forbidden.

The Sessions (2014)

Rusty said...

Germany is good at curtailing shit. Certainly curtailed the Jews.

What Bob said.

Curious George said...

Germany, like much of your Europe, is toast. Muslim population and their birth rates are sufficient to overtake government. Dumb fucks.

mockturtle said...

Mockturtle we didn't really have free speech in Canada either. Canadians can say what they like in their homes but we are regulated once we leave our house.

JWL, I know. And it's so sad! And yet I've met some Canadians who think speech should be censored and that America is uncivilized. So there's that.

Freeman Hunt said...

ALL laws against "hate speech" violate the right to free speech, in our country no less than in Germany. They turn one's thoughts into crimes. There is no simply no defense for laws that make punishment more severe for crimes motivated by bias than by the same crimes spurred by other motivations, (such as greed).

Look at that. Freedom of speech bringing the left and right together.

Unknown said...

"A new law meant to curtail hate speech on social media in Germany is stifling free speech and making martyrs out of anti-immigrant politicians whose posts are deleted..."

Unexpectedly. (h/t Instapundit)

-sw

sparrow said...

Cook has always had a reasonable side.

walter said...

Blogger Oso Negro said...Freedom of speech isn’t really a German value. In fact, what they value is you keeping your fucking mouth shut. Except in porn videos, of course.
--Advisable there too..given the how German sounds.

Curious George said...

"Freeman Hunt said...
Look at that. Freedom of speech bringing the left and right together."

I'm guessing you said that tongue-in-cheek but I'd suggest Cookie is an outlier in regard to the left and hate speech laws. These laws are the creation of the left, and you will see few push back.

walter said...

Remember the Obama days where one could get reprimanded for saying Obama instead of President Obama?

Inga said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
walter said...

Maybe Michael Mann's suit against Mark Steyn will shed light on this.

Angel-Dyne said...

Meanwhile, Macron in France just announced some new laws criminalizing "fake news". Like these German "hate speech" laws, hey are transparently an attempt to shut down political opposition.

Inga said...

Trump’s lawyer sent a cease and desist letter to Michael Wolff’s publisher, telling him not to publish and distribute the book Fire and Fury. How is this not a violation of Wolff’s First Amendment rights? Maybe we should concern ourselves with our own sitting president trying to censor publications not complimentary to him first before worrying about Germany.

walter said...

Uh..FYI, I was responding to Inga's deleted post about Trump violating Wolff's 1st amendment rights.

walter said...

Oh...it's back. New and improved?

Sam L. said...

Who could not see this coming? Anyone? Mueller??

Angel-Dyne said...

What's remarkable is just how downright thuggish the suppression of speech in Europe has become, and how ham-handed the propaganda in its defense. It's been that way for some time.

The great and good seem confident that there will be no meaningful pushback against their thuggishness, and I see no evidence that they're wrong about that.

mockturtle said...

Angel-Dyne reports: Meanwhile, Macron in France just announced some new laws criminalizing "fake news". Like these German "hate speech" laws, hey are transparently an attempt to shut down political opposition.

Yes. They are losing control of the narrative and they will go to any length to regain it, even if it means beclowning themselves.

Drago said...

Inga: "How is this not a violation of Wolff’s First Amendment rights? Maybe we should concern ourselves with our own sitting president trying to censor publications not complimentary to him first before worrying about Germany."

Lol

Industrial grade stupid.

And I wouldn't worry too much about Getmany. Your islamist pals are in the drivers seat and those german women are just going to have to learn to accept mass sexual assaults.

Because leftys. Like you.

Did you hear the one about the swedish lefty high school Principal who called the muslim perpetrators of a gang rape of an underage swedish girl "victims too"?

Good times for our lefties. Good times.



walter said...

Calling someone "ham-handed" is surely a violation.

Greg Hlatky said...

European constitutions make it clear that your rights are gifts of the state and also make it clear that the state can curtail them if it wants to.

Char Char Binks said...

The Law of Intended Consequences again.

Drago said...

Angel-Dyne: "What's remarkable is just how downright thuggish the suppression of speech in Europe has become, and how ham-handed the propaganda in its defense."

The inevitable result of liberal/lefty domination.

But inly every single time and every single place the lefties gain sufficient control.

Tim at large said...

These laws are the creation of the left, and you will see few push back.

Nobody wants the old “ice pick special” that even lovable old Trotsky got.

Jupiter said...

Fernandistein said...

"The actual author of that quote is a neo-Nazi, Holocaust denier, and an aficionado of kiddie porn - "

That is what he was accused of, by government agents who planted "evidence" on his computer. What's on your computer?

Angel-Dyne said...

mockturtle: Yes. They are losing control of the narrative and they will go to any length to regain it, even if it means beclowning themselves.

The question isn't whether they "lose control of the narrative", but whether they lose control. It hardly matters that some people know you're a clown if you can shut them up, fine them, or throw them into jail for saying so, and the majority of the rest of the people are willing to tolerate their doing so. That seems to be pretty much the case in Western Europe, the UK included.

Tim at large said...

The recent influx of mostly young, male migrants into Germany has led to an increase in violent crime in the country, according to a government-funded study published Wednesday.

The study used figures from the northern state of Lower Saxony to examine the impact of refugee arrivals on crime in 2015 and 2016, a period when the number of violent crimes reported increased by 10.4 percent.

The authors concluded that 92 percent of the additional crimes recorded could be attributed to the increase in refugee numbers.

It noted that the demographic composition of the refugee population is a major factor. Young males — whether Germans or migrants — are generally more likely to commit crimes, but also more likely to become victims of violence.
- ABC News Hate Site

Oooh, the story gets worse!

The recent influx of mostly young, male migrants into Germany has led to an increase in violent crime in the country, according to a government-funded study published Wednesday.

The study used figures from the northern state of Lower Saxony to examine the impact of refugee arrivals on crime in 2015 and 2016, a period when the number of violent crimes reported increased by 10.4 percent.

The authors concluded that 92 percent of the additional crimes recorded could be attributed to the increase in refugee numbers.


Of course the solution is to bring in more “refugees.” There are seven billion people in the world, if we are going to save them all, it would have to be in place, and would take a huge amount of violence, I am afraid.

Fernandistein said...

Jupiter said...
"The actual author of that quote is a neo-Nazi, Holocaust denier, and an aficionado of kiddie porn - "

That is what he was accused of, by government agents who planted "evidence" on his computer.


He was probably being railroaded on some other stuff, but he pleaded guilty to having kiddie-porn.

What's on your computer?

Bug porn - $1

Oh oh! And an encrypted file of random numbers.

Jim at said...

"Hate speech laws are written by people who hate speech ... they don't agree with."

Clarified.

gbarto said...

"When you want to know who rules over you, simply ask whom it is you cannot criticize."

Voltaire didn't say it, but it's still apt.

Voltaire said: "Il est dangereux d'avoir raison dans des choses où des hommes accrédités ont tort" (It's dangerous to be right when those in power are wrong) which hints at the quote but doesn't get there.

As for Trump, he can send the letter, but they can ignore it. He can sue and they can defend their claims. And if he does sue, it will be a private citizen suing another private citizen: the taxpayers won't be paying for his nonsense and the power of the state won't be brought down upon the publisher.

walter said...

bug porn

Earnest Prole said...

If only Germany had some mechanism -- a Verfassungszusätze, or "bill of rights" -- that would guarantee Germans' God-given right to free speech.

PaoloP said...

far-right, of course

Bad Lieutenant said...

Jupiter said...
Fernandistein said...

"The actual author of that quote is a neo-Nazi, Holocaust denier, and an aficionado of kiddie porn - "

That is what he was accused of, by government agents who planted "evidence" on his computer. What's on your computer?

1/4/18, 2:26 PM


I'm just going to make the observation that, Voltaire or modern creep, it's a great line, and if written by a creep, is no less brilliant.

Matthew Sablan said...

The consequences. They were unintended.

Jupiter said...

"I'm just going to make the observation that, Voltaire or modern creep, it's a great line, and if written by a creep, is no less brilliant."

Well, but, see, it was supposed to imply that we are ruled by Jews. And you're not allowed to say that. Pointing out that an awful lot of the people fucking up our country are Jews is anti-semitic. They can say that in Europe, but not here.

chickelit said...

Big Mike notes: "Angela Merkel grew up in East Germany and communist leaders like Walter Ulbricht and Erich Honecker. You can take the politician out of East Germany, but can you take East Germany out of the politician?"

Not just that, she grew up in a family which moved from west to east to be a part of the east at a time when most others were fleeing westward. No one ever talks about that. It would be like Dezi Arnez insisting on moving back to Cuba to live under Castro. Germany selected her to help with reunification, but she in no way represents all of Germany or its values.

mockturtle said...

Pointing out that an awful lot of the people fucking up our country are Jews is anti-semitic. They can say that in Europe, but not here.

If I'm not mistaken, Jupiter, you just did! ;-)

n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
n.n said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...


Pointing out that an awful lot of the people fucking up our country are Jews is anti-semitic.


It's also pretty stupid.

I'm reading "The Wealth and Poverty of Nations" which points out that Portugal, a pioneer in exploration in the 15th century, became part of Spain after the kingdoms were joined in 1581 with Phillip II as king, The Inquisition followed the union into Portugal and all Jews were expelled or forced to be baptized. Even occupations that were "typical" of Jews were ab=voided and Portugal sank into a century of mediocrity. Even doctors were suspected of secretly being Jews by the Inquisition and books stopped being printed or read.

It was a disaster.

Germany suffered a similar fate in science when Hitler did his thing.

Freeman Hunt said...

I know a great number of leftists who are freedom of speech hardliners and more who support it after one talks with them about it. Freedom of speech is a principle that isn't considered to have conservative cooties, so plenty of leftists who don't support it are happy to support it once persuaded by argument. (And that's a fairly easy persuasion.)

narciso said...

As Fleming rose pointed out, it wee these type of lies, that hwlpedctheclukescof goebbels and Hitler.

Achilles said...

Bob Boyd said...
The German government brought in a million Muslims and now they find it increasingly necessary to rule Germany the way Muslim countries are ruled.

Progressives just really are not good people.

Jon Ericson said...

hwlpedctheclukescof
just off the road near Llanfairpwllgwyngyll.

Jon Ericson said...

I denounce myself.

Rusty said...

Libel laws , Inga. Libel laws.
You can say whatever you want, but you can't call someone a thieving bastard in public

if they aren't a thieving bastard.
If you weren't so busy showing the rest of the troop your glowing red baboon ass you would have realized this.