December 15, 2017

"The woman said that she does not recall how long the unwanted contact lasted, and that she felt unable to do anything to stop it. 'There were people there'..."

"... she said. 'What are they going to think of me, that I’m a whore, if a say something? What would I say? He’s Dustin Hoffman.' According to the woman, the car dropped her near her apartment, but Hoffman put $20 in her hand and instructed her to go to the San Remo, where he lived. 'I didn’t know what to do, the woman said, describing herself as being in 'a kind of fugue state' triggered by her encounter with Hoffman and related to abuse that she suffered as a child. She hailed a cab and asked the driver to 'drive around' for a few minutes, then asked him to take her to the San Remo. There she said, Hoffman was waiting outside the building. She accompanied him upstairs, where, she claimed, he performed oral sex on her and they had intercourse. Asked if she would describe the encounter in the station wagon as non-consensual, she said 'yes.' Asked if she would describe the encounter at the San Remo as such, she said, 'I don’t know.'"

From "Dustin Hoffman Accused of Exposing Himself to a Minor, Assaulting Two Women," at Variety.

A "fugue state" is "a rare psychiatric disorder characterized by reversible amnesia for personal identity, including the memories, personality, and other identifying characteristics of individuality." It "usually involves unplanned travel or wandering" — perhaps to the San Remo — "and is sometimes accompanied by the establishment of a new identity."

45 comments:

rhhardin said...

He was going to go into plastics, say Armstrong and Getty.

Fabi said...

He paid for her bus fare -- quite the gentleman!

eric said...

Manipulated her into a sexual encounter?

He gave her cab fare, then she chose to go to his place and have sex with him.

If we keep this up, eventually we are going to have to treat all women as if they are 5 years old.

M Jordan said...

Now this is sexual misconduct, as they say these days. But that Dahlia Lithwick story from Slare yesterday ... what a pile of MeToo! MeToo!

Lyle Sanford, RMT said...

I remember reading somewhere a possible explanation for that weird disappearance of Agatha Christie for a while was a fugue state occurrence.

walter said...

"It was the first time I had ever seen a naked man. I was mortified. I didn’t know what to do. And he milked it. He milked the fact that he was naked."
Whoah..thought that was turning into a Harvey moment.

Sleeping with someone in a different time and setting after that level of fondling kinda turns it into foreplay.
Oh..I know..she didn't know what to do.


Gahrie said...

If we keep this up, eventually we are going to have to treat all women as if they are 5 years old.

Women must never be held responsible for, or be made to feel bad about, anything.

walter said...

“There were people there,” she said. “What are they going to think of me, that I’m a whore, if a say something? What would I say? He’s Dustin Hoffman.”
--
Was this in a time where actors WEREN'T considered questionable?
So if no one's there, no one will believe it.
If people are there, you'll be called a whore.

rcocean said...

OK, so it was so "Non-consensual" she asked him up to her apartment, had sex with him, and kept quiet for 30 years.

Okey Dokey.

rcocean said...

Last time I looked the Rape laws covered everyone. Didn't realize there was a "Dustin Hoffman" exception.

OldGrouchyCranky said...

Always thought that Hoffman was type cast in "Midnight Cowboy".

Paco Wové said...

Fugue states: the gluten intolerance of the mind.

Angel-Dyne said...

eric: If we keep this up, eventually we are going to have to treat all women as if they are 5 years old.

The Martian observer would conclude that the goal of contemporary feminism was to prove as absolutely correct every argument ever made for why women shouldn't be allowed in public life or given adult status.

I'm beginning to see an upside to this recognizing eleventy-jillion genders thing - I wouldn't have to identity as belonging to the same sex as these people.

sophomorecritic said...

It's not about not letting her story be told. She's allowed to say her side of the story (although the idea of going to the press is becoming ridiculous as it's serving no purpose but needlessly ruining people's lives) but it's not the equivalent of being anti-feminist to not consider this encounter rape.

For one, how was Dustin Hoffman supposed to know that the woman he was having sex with had suffered sexual trauma and was triggered by something into having a horrible experience. She even admitted it was consensual.



And yes, it's still possible to love someone while admitting they've done bad things. Dustin Hoffman doesn't deserve life ruination.

Oso Negro said...

It was a successful pussy grab! I guess it is only for masters, like the Five Finger Death Punch.

Dog Barkle said...

I would've done it for $19.

n.n said...

Unworthy? Inconvenient or perhaps unprofitable. Not viable.

Abort him. Abort him, NOW.

walter said...

Has this Fugue state been used as as a criminal defense?
Seems to offer substantial flexibility...

Darrell said...

She's lucky. He could have given Mickey Rooney her number.

Shane said...

Your “Fugue state” definition was perfectly presented in Breaking Bad where lead Walter White used it in a series arc to explain his absence after getting stranded cooking meth in the desert. He “appeared” naked in a convenience store to support his explanation. The medical team in the drama found his story/presentation fully plausible. He not only abused this condition, he then abused the sanctity of doctor/patient by confessing his fraud to the staff psychiatrist so he could then be discharged and resume his budding business.

gerry said...

Look, apparently women are vary fragile psychically, easily manipulated, morally frail, and existentially confused. We need a new class of professional, matronly chaperones to help modern women deal with life.

I don't get it. My wife of 31 years once took a handgun with her (before we met) to pick up her belongings when she broke up with some guy she was living with. She has concealed carry now, for heaven's sake.

The women's liberation movement's dialectics have come home to roost. The contradictions are roasting its adherents and victims, and I don't think there are any heroes.

rcocean said...

I always liked Hoffman after he told Bob Fosse that "Lenny Bruce wasn't Funny".

Which he wasn't.

rcocean said...

Its sad that we're going after 80 year old Hoffman for his 20-30 y/o sexual harassment, but we just finished denying 70 year old Judge Moore a Senate Job because of his 35 year old he said/she said sex problems.

Anonymous said...

None of these women seem to have even an ounce of self-respect.
Whatever happened to turning around & smacking a guy who gets out of line?
Further, how can women expect to qualify for Marine Infantry if they can't even squeak while getting sexually assaulted in public?

Big Mike said...

Two simpler explanations occur to me, neither of which require the invocation of a RARE psychological condition. First is that Trump is right; when you’re rich and famous women — make that some women — will let you do anything with them. But twenty years later she decided that twenty dollars wasn’t nearly nearly enough for her sexual services after deducting for the cab fare and maybe the sex itself was not as orgasmic as she’d hoped for so she’s complaining. second is that Trump is right; when you’re rich and famous some women will let you do anything with them. But now she wants her fifteen minutes of fame that never came. The third option is that she’s making it up.

So my sympathy for the woman is a bit limited. The most you can get Hoffman on at this point is underpaying an amateur hooker.

Big Mike said...

A note for any young woman reading this thread. If a man puts his fingers inside your pants or gropes your butt in public, there’s a simple move you can do that involves twisting his hand so that his little finger points towards his body and his palm faces forward. Then lift the arm up until it locks or he yelps. Then tell him that if he doesn’t leave, you’re going to dislocate his shoulder. Which at that point takes hardly any strength — if you know what you’re doing you can mostly accomplish the dislocation — an extremely painful injury — using his own body weight. I believe the move is called kote gai-ish, but I’m having a bit of a senior moment. A ju jitsu sensei or aikido sensei can teach the move.

FIDO said...

You know...Weinstein, Hoffman, Franken...these are guys pushing the boundaries because...let's not beat around the bush...they are not attractive.

One assumes the Matt Damon's and the Brad Pitts of the world don't need to sexually harass women.

Which brings us to expectations. What is the use of being rich, powerful, and talented if it doesn't make you fully happy. Hetty Green had all the money in the world. She was still ugly. She was still disliked. She still wasn't the belle of the ball. She was probably unappreciated.

These men expected that wild success like they enjoyed owed them a bit of...feminine consideration. Obviously they didn't get it.

Want to know whom else this reminds me of? Urban Professional Women. They followed all the rules, clawed their way to the top...and they were still denied that Christian Grey in their lives and they are mad as hell about it!

Except that it seems women work to make everyone else miserable but men harass on a retail basis.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

When you're a star they let you do it.

A few decades later they'll tell everyone how terrible it was, of course, and you might be retroactively judged for it.

It's wrong to grope people without consent. If you grope someone and then ask them to come back to your place, and they do, it seems like you would have an entirely reasonable belief that the other person consented to the groping.

Like...I've accepted that "a woman doesn't have to say no to mean no" and I understand that in certain situations a person may feel like it's dangerous to object to things they do not consent to, but if we say "you should have known she didn't want that" about a situation where a mentally-sound adult takes multiple steps to make themselves available (while completely free from the threat of physical harm) then I'm not sure what the standard is actually supposed to be. He'd really have to be a mind reader at that point, wouldn't he?

The obvious solution to this problem is to require single women to always travel with a male guardian of some kind...but I thought we were all supposed to hate The Handmaids Tale universe.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Big Mike said...I believe the move is called kote gai-ish, but I’m having a bit of a senior moment. A ju jitsu sensei or aikido sensei can teach the move.

Youtube: Aikido - Kotegaeshi (wrist lock throw)

walter said...

Yes..they can learn a physical defense maneuver..or they can tell the other people in the car or whatever "public" makes it in public...

walter said...

Damon: I knew I wouldn’t want him married to anyone close to me. But that was the extent of what we knew, you know? And that wasn’t a surprise to anybody. So when you hear Harvey this, Harvey that — I mean, look at the guy. Of course he’s a womanizer … I mean, I don’t hang out with him.

Howard said...

According to Huffington Post, Hoffman purposefully initiated the fugue state by auditory osmosis:
Fugue State Inducing Music

Sebastian said...

Quotable quote from Claire Berlinski's good piece in The American Interest (very bloggable, just sayin'): ""It does not matter that, at the time, I may have felt what I said was okay. The only thing that matters is how I made these three women feel,” said Representative Steve Lebsock."

And the only thing that matters matters even if women didn't actually feel what they now claim they felt.

Slightly missing the point of her own piece, Berlinski begs women to "think this through," before recognizing that, well, yeah, sure, some of the anger is actually, rightly aimed at Trump.

The Hoffman accuser is data point number umpteen that some things are more important to the witch hunters than thinking it through.

EDH said...

Well, he did make Elaine cry when took her to a Burlesque club and the dancer spun her tassels on Elaine's face.

Jim S. said...

OK, this is off topic, but a publisher just sent me a complimentary copy of Reality's Fugue: Reconciling Worldviews in Philosophy, Religion, and Science by F. Samuel Brainard. It looks interesting.

Daniel Richwine said...

All this started to try to make Trump look bad. He now looks like a saint by comparison.

William said...

The woman doesn't claim it was a crime, but, whatever it was, it surely wasn't a seduction. I'm sympathetic to the woman. Hoffman has or, rather, had a fine reputation. He doesn't deserve it....... I've never been sexually assaulted, but I've had some heavyweights throw their heavy weight in my direction and treat me unfairly.. It's very hard for a civilian to take on a VIP, and sometimes you just disassociate and try to live through it.......I repeat an earlier example I gave. Suppose you met an ostensibly straight movie star that you had long admired. That star treated you like you were his new best friend. The star invited you up to his hotel room to show you naked pictures of his leading lady. The star is an action star in top physical shape and can easily overpower you, or maybe he just slips something in your drink. Anyway, he fucks you in the ass. Tell me what your next move would be.

Rt1 Rebel said...

@Big Mike

There's an easier but similar move. Cup your palm over the middle thumb joint of the aggressor's hand and squeeze as hard as you can. I had a macho supervisor that liked to do the hard handshake and see if he could power you to the floor with it. I put that move on him and it was he that ended up on the floor. He never tried that again with me.

Big Mike said...

@Rt1 Rebel, that's a new one to me. If I can find a volunteer I need to try it.

@HoodlumDoodlum, thanks for the link, but based on that series of videos I see that I was thinking of the wrist position one creates in Sankyo. The proper hand position is best seen at about the 25 second mark, and the uke is not faking the pain of the joint lock. It's been a while since I was on a mat so I got my terminology confused.

walter said...

William,
WTF?
You are taking major liberties with your tangent.
But it might make a good script..for the underground laslo.

Jonathan Graehl said...

older women reinventing themselves in a more flattering modern light
what a spectacle

Ambrose said...

"'I didn’t know what to do', the woman said"

What is "pocket the twenty and don't take cab to his apartment" Alex

Emil Blatz said...

When in doubt, whip it out!

Mac McConnell said...

William
Is this the first time I've had it up the can?

If not , I'd probably wake up in a stupor noticing the semen and blood dripping from my anus. I would proceed to call the cops, get a rape kit and blood sample for drugs. I would then proceed to sue this faggot up the can for all he is worth.

Mac McConnell said...

Pick up bars are going to supply consent contracts and have a notary on hand.