November 26, 2017

"Readers Accuse Us of Normalizing a Nazi Sympathizer; We Respond."

The NYT has a third article about that one Nazi/"Nazi" it found in Dayton, Ohio. We're already talking about the first 2 articles, the first one, which didn't make much sense, and the second one, in which the author said the editors challenged him to make some sense, but he couldn't. I said:
But why was he important enough to drag into the spotlight in the first place?.... The answer must be that he serves a purpose for you and the NYT. You could put some effort into self-examination: Why are you using him?
In the comments, Matthew Sablan — anticipating the subject matter of the third NYT article — said:
I don't understand. The NYT takes someone everyone thinks is an extremist and does everything they can to make him seem evil and wrong, and people STILL think the NYT is trying to make him look like a regular Joe? They go out of their way to try and downplay his every day Joe-ness, even burying the fact he wasn't even AT Charlottesville.* Anyone who thinks the NYT is defending or promoting Nazis needs to re-read the piece and figure out how they misread it so epicly bad.
So the readers over at the NYT — according to the third article —  found the story offensive:
“How to normalize Nazis 101!” one reader wrote on Twitter. “I’m both shocked and disgusted by this article,” wrote another. “Attempting to ‘normalize’ white supremacist groups – should Never have been printed!”...

But far more were outraged by the article. “You know who had nice manners?” Bess Kalb, a writer for Jimmy Kimmel Live, said on Twitter. “The Nazi who shaved my uncle Willie’s head before escorting him into a cement chamber where he locked eyes with children as their lungs filled with poison and they suffocated to death in agony. Too much? Exactly. That’s how you write about Nazis.”
One reader characterized the profile of Hovater as "glowing." Why didn't the NYT pick a more obviously evil American Nazi to profile? It says it didn't intend to "normalize" Hovater but to show how "hate and extremism have become more normal" than we want to think. That is, the NYT claims to be showing what is, and the readers are saying Don't do that. You're helping them. You must keep them as monsters, make them toxic.

The NYT says the idea of the article was to figure out "Who were those people" who marched in Charlottesville last August:
We assigned Richard Fausset, one of our smartest thinkers and best writers, to profile one of the far-right foot soldiers at the rally. We ended up settling on Mr. Hovater....
The NYT doesn't say why it picked Horvater. Who else did it consider profiling? And the NYT doesn't admit it did anything wrong, just expresses "regret" that readers were offended. It doesn't even clearly come out and say our job in journalism is to tell the facts the way they are. I guess that's because it would further offend the feelings of readers who are especially fierce in their position that nothing even remotely sympathetic to any Nazi should ever be said.

And while I'm here, I wanted to highlight something chickelit wrote in the comments to my earlier post. Like me, he noticed the photograph — in the first NYT article — of Horvath's bookshelf, a photograph that makes a strong impression because one of the books has a big swastika on its spine. But that book is William Shirer's "The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich"!
That must be a Doubleday first edition, because my mother had the very same book. I read it growing up and can't imagine a more first person account of anti-fascism- particularly of the sort that came out of 20th century Berlin. But of course in this NYT hit piece, the effect is to make us believe that Hovator reads Nazi propaganda. Pathetic.
I have  "The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich" too and have read it recently (and often reread parts of it). This book is in no way pro-Nazi. Did Fausset — "one of our smartest thinker and best writers" — ask Hovater about that book? Did Fausset even know what that book was? If I'd been with Hovater and looked at that shelf, I'd have said "Oh, you have 'The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich'! How can you read that and feel any admiration for the Nazis?" But all the article says is "Books about Mussolini and Hitler shared shelf space with a stack of Nintendo Wii games," as if Hovater is just a shallow youth, playing games. But the NYT and Fausset are shallow if they did not recognize the significance of that book with the swastika.

Here's how the book looks now, in its 50th anniversary edition:


There's still a swastika on the cover. There's also a quote: "One of the most important works of history of our time." The source of the quote: The New York Times.

And you would think that the NYT and Fausset would especially care about an important work of history written by a man, William L. Shirer, who was a reporter — a reporter who lived through and covered the events. From the Foreword of the book:
With... the memory of life in Nazi Germany and of the appearance and behavior and nature of the men who ruled it, Adolf Hitler above all, still fresh in my mind and bones, I decided... to make an attempt to set down the history of the rise and fall of the Third Reich. “I lived through the whole war,” Thucydides remarks in his History of the Peloponnesian War, one of the greatest works of history ever written, “being of an age to comprehend events and giving my attention to them in order to know the exact truth about them.”...

No doubt my own prejudices, which inevitably spring from my experience and make-up, creep through the pages of this book from time to time. I detest totalitarian dictatorships in principle and came to loathe this one the more I lived through it and watched its ugly assault upon the human spirit. Nevertheless, in this book I have tried to be severely objective, letting the facts speak for themselves and noting the source for each. No incidents, scenes or quotations stem from the imagination; all are based on documents, the testimony of eyewitnesses or my own personal observation. In the half-dozen or so occasions in which there is some speculation, where the facts are missing, this is plainly labeled as such.

My interpretations, I have no doubt, will be disputed by many. That is inevitable, since no man’s opinions are infallible. Those that I have ventured here in order to add clarity and depth to this narrative are merely the best I could come by from the evidence and from what knowledge and experience I have had.
I have such respect for this book, and I would think all journalists would know about it. To not know or to know and still treat it as an object that says "Nazi!!" about some guy in Ohio is just awful.
_________________________

* The article is confusing and can leave you with the impression that Hovater wasn't at Charlottesville because the second-to-the-last paragraph says:
The pasta was ready. Ms. Hovater talked about how frightening it was this summer to watch from home as the Charlottesville rally spun out of control. Mr. Hovater said he was glad the movement had grown.
That makes it sound as though he watched the whole thing on TV like most of us. But even more buried, in the center of the article, we read:
After he attended the Charlottesville rally.... Mr. Hovater wrote that he was proud of the comrades who joined him there: “We made history. Hail victory.”

In German, “Hail victory” is “Sieg heil.”

296 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 296 of 296
Bruce Hayden said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bruce Hayden said...

What is interesting to me are the parallels between the Fascist Black Shirts (Fasci di combattimento) and Nazi Brown Shirts (Sturmabteilung), and the modern Antifa movement. All used/use organized planned violence to further socialist revolutions. The first two were, and the latter appears to be, externally funded. All use uniforms, of sorts, and all use paramilitary tactics. All essentially primarily targeted/target marginalized groups, partially for their lesser ability to protect themselves and partially to gain political support. The big differences I see are that the Nazi and Fascist storm troopers had better uniforms, and better defined socialist agendas. Antifa storm troopers seem more to espouse a communist style socialism.

And that may be the key here to their name ("Antifa") or anti-fascists. Just as fascism was a branch of socialism developed to compete with the communism of the (then) newly created USSR, Antifa is espousing a more communistic brand of socialism to compete with the capitalistic socialism (very similar to Italian and German fascism) pushed by the leftist elites in this country and Europe. None of these groups, ranging from 1917 era Russian Communists, through Italian Fascists, German Nazis, modern Democrats or European social democrats, to Antifa supporters, were, or are, the least bit right wing. They all espouse and prefer state control over freedom and liberty.

John henry said...

Damn well said, Bruce.

John Henry

Matt Sablan said...

So, here's my question.

Do NYT readers think this is what it takes to normalize an ideology? A lot of non-NYT readers here and elsewhere didn't see it. Do the NYT readers think: "Oh, he made pasta and has cats. He can't be that bad, can he?"

If so, that says a lot more about NYT readers than they think.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Imagine if the Nazi apologists here (John, buwaya, Michael K, Bruce Hayden) took the same attitude to the murder of Heather Heyer by an Islamic terrorist. What a fuss there would be. What wailing and rending of garments. Drago would go on about it for months. But suddenly it is acceptable to be an apologist for terrorists, if they happen to be Nazis?

Paco Wové said...

What does it take to be a "nazi apologist" in your eyes, ARM? Is it just explaining the "innocent until proven guilty" thing, or is there more than that?

Qwinn said...

I'm not sure I've heard of an Islamic terrorist yet who, having decided to use his vehicle to kill people, only managed to kill one person. Islamic terrorists tend to use up any possible benefit of the doubt with a high bodycount and a lack of a violent protest already on the scene that could make self defense plausible. Nice try conflating the two as if they're identical though.

FIDO said...

The Nazi party rose and died with Hitler. The communists continued after Stalin's death, but they were never as bad or as murderous after his death as during his reign.

Um...some serious revisionism there. After all, after Stalin, the USSR happily invaded Hungary, Afghanistan etc, and if they had fewer famines, it was because China and the US were shipping MEGATONS of wheat and food to them.

But you gloss over something quite notable.

Cromwell, when he changed the government, didn't have a huge bloodbath (though he had a few words with Ireland, which predated him). When the first Bourbon king came back after the Revolution, there were no genocidal and class bloody reprisals. Poland and the Reunification of Germany had no huge repercussions.

And yet...EVERY SINGLE communist take over was 'blessed' with genocidal maniacs. Lenin, Stalin, Mao and you stopped there, but it went on to Cuba, Cambodia, Vietnam, Myanmar, not to mention all those entertaining guerrilla groups in South America killing nuns and children in the name of Marx.

Why is it that EVERY communist government kills thousands to millions of people? It isn't just the odd sociopath. ALL of them have been horrible.

So at some point, you have to ask if maybe it isn't the people, it is the atheistic, 'anything for the proletariat is okay' rationalizing populist envy based ideology.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Imagine if islamists had marched through Charlottesville with torches and rifles and then one of their number had murdered and maimed multiple people with a vehicle. Who here would support that? Yet the Nazi apologists support the piece of scum James Alex Fields. Disgraceful.

FIDO said...

ARM,

I don't follow the Nazi newsletters. Perhaps you do.


So I just don't recall a call to 'jihad' by Nazis against the Jews and Blacks. Political action. Shunning. Change in voting patterns.

But let us say that EVERY Nazi in the U.S. WAS making that call. That is...30,000 people? Tops? There are 3.3 MILLION Muslims in America. There has been One (1) act of 'terrorism' by a Nazi period for decades.

How many Muslim attacks happened just since that car incident?

Yeah...math is not your friend when it comes to threat assessment.

Qwinn said...

Imagine an islamist terrorist killing a bunch of people, and the Left's only reaction is "he doesn't represent Islam, which is peace!" and using the attack to call for gun control against the victims.

Oh wait.

FIDO said...

Lone wolf actually means something.

Systemic religious call to war is something entirely different. The 'Old Man on the Mountain' is an Islamic 'thing'.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

A Nazi terrorist killed a woman in Charlottesville. It's not complicated. Don't defend it. This is not rocket science.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

He was not a lone wolf. He was with a horde of like minded fascists. It was a fascist convention.

"Among the far-right groups engaged in organizing the march were the clubs of the neo-Nazi website The Daily Stormer,[24] The Right Stuff,[25] the National Policy Institute,[26] and four groups that form the Nationalist Front:[23] the neo-Confederate League of the South,[23] the Traditionalist Workers Party,[27] Vanguard America,[27] and the National Socialist Movement.[23] Other groups involved in the rally were the Ku Klux Klan,[7] the Fraternal Order of Alt-Knights,[27] Identity Evropa,[28] the Rise Above Movement,[29][30] the American Guard,[31] the Detroit Right Wings,[32] True Cascadia,[33] and Anti-Communist Action.[31]

Prominent far-right figures in attendance included National Policy Institute Chairman Richard Spencer,[34] entertainer Baked Alaska,[34] former Libertarian Party candidate Augustus Invictus,[35] former Klan Imperial Wizard David Duke,[36] Identity Evropa leader Nathan Damigo,[37] Traditionalist Youth Network CEO Matthew Heimbach,[34] Right Stuff founder Mike Enoch,[34] League of the South founder Michael Hill,[4] Red Ice host Henrik Palmgren,[38] Right Side Broadcasting Network host Nicholas Fuentes,[39] YouTube personality James Allsup,[39] AltRight.com editor Daniel Friberg,[40] former Business Insider CTO Pax Dickinson,[41] Right Stuff blogger Johnny Monoxide,[42] Daily Stormer writer Robert "Azzmador" Ray,[43] Daily Caller contributor and rally organizer Jason Kessler,[44] and Radical Agenda host Christopher Cantwell.[45][46] Gavin McInnes, the leader of the self-described "Western chauvinist" Proud Boys group, was invited to attend but declined because of an unwillingness "to be associated with explicit neo-Nazis."[47] In June, ahead of the rally, McInnes declared that "we need to distance ourselves from them," but "after backlash to the original disavowal flared-up from Alt-Right circles, the statement was withdrawn and replaced with another distancing the Proud Boys from the event yet also encouraging those who 'feel compelled' to attend."[48]"

Not a lone wolf.

Paco Wové said...

"Don't defend it."

No one's "defending" it, no one's "supporting" it. You're being
(a) disingenuous
(b) hysterical
(c) a cynical asshole
(d) all of the above.

Qwinn said...

There go those crazy far right wing people calling themselves National Socialists again. I wonder why they keep doing that. Cause I've never met any kind of right winger who would voluntarily call themselves "socialist". But for ARM, the fact that such groups are obviously right wing is perfectly, totally obvious.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Paco Wové said...
No one's "defending" it


This is not true. In the real world several people here defended them and/or tried to minimize their actions. Sad!

Robert Cook said...

"And (Arendt) was quite good at rationalizing her POV, which is what you get when you are an intellectual."

It's what you get when you're a human being.

Bruce Hayden said...

"Imagine if the Nazi apologists here (John, buwaya, Michael K, Bruce Hayden) took the same attitude to the murder of Heather Heyer by an Islamic terrorist."

ARM is apparently judge, jury, and presumably executioner, based on evidence from left wing sources. Let me remind all that "murder" is conclusion reached by the fact finder in a court of law applying the facts in evidence in the case to the legal requirements for the charges. All we have so far as undisputed fact is that the car driven by the "Nazi" killed Heyer. Homicide and a charge of murder.

"A Nazi terrorist killed a woman in Charlottesville. It's not complicated. Don't defend it. This is not rocket science."

You are getting closer, but still seem to be missing important things - here the reality that the terrorists were mostly Antifa and their fellow travelers, both by numbers and by intent. They are the ones who didn't have parade permits, and came to town exclusively to fight, kick butt, and intimidate. And, yes, in this case, to engage in terrorism. That is what you seem to be having a hard time with - that a lot of the Antifa types there were there as terrorists.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Bruce Hayden said...
the reality that the terrorists were mostly Antifa


You hate the left, I get that. But, reality stays unchanged by your hatred. By trying to deflect blame from the Nazis you are a Nazi apologist.

Michael K said...

Imagine if the Nazi apologists here (John, buwaya, Michael K, Bruce Hayden) took the same attitude to the murder of Heather Heyer by an Islamic terrorist.

You are going off the deep end ARM.

The left swings from hating the police and shooting them (where were you on those occasions ARM?) and assuming guilt by accusation.

Have you looked at all the videos in the Charlottesville incident ? I have or as many as are available online.

The organizer was an Occupy organizer.

Your criterion for "murder" would be news to your BLM friends.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Another Nazi apologist refuses to own his own beliefs.

Jason said...

Libtards like ARM have an unerring knack for identifying 978,496 out of every five actual Nazi apologists.

Qwinn said...

I've never met anyone trying so hard to "normalize" Nazism as ARM is attempting to do here.

FIDO said...

What ARM desperately wants to avoid is the topic that violence occurred at this event and the police were ORDERED to not stop the violence since the ANTFA terrorists outnumbered the Nazis (and were likely bussed in special to let that little circumstance occur).

I can live with the occasional lone wolf murderer. I can understand that there are always thugs and gangs with political motives.

I have a MAJOR FUCKING PROBLEM when elected officials are COZY with said thugs and gangs and try to use them to suppress Free Speech.

Because this is what that whole fiasco was about: The Left trying to suppress Free Speech They came to start a riot...and they lost one of their own as a result. No provocation there!


This guy drove in and someone died. Have a trial. Get a statement. Is he a terrorist? Maybe. Maybe not.

Having a 3 to 1 huge armed mob showing up at YOUR peaceful demonstration certainly makes his motives...slightly more complex than ARM will ever concede. Shades of Bernie Goetz!

Qwinn said...

Oh, and the only major American political party.that ever supported David Duke in his political aspirations was the Democrat Party.

Bruce Hayden said...

Let me clarify. "Murder" is a determination of fact in a court of law. Self defense here is the legally justified use of force in defense of self (or others), and in defense in a murder or manslaughter trial, the justified level of force in question is lethal force. If a defendant charged with murder can show some evidence supporting self defense (such as, here, maybe a crowd running after his car), then the state has the burden of disproving self defense beyond a reasonable doubt. If they fail, then the homicide was not murder, but legally justified as self defense. Not rocket science.

Terrorism, as normally understood, involves someone engaging in violence to further extremist political or religious goals. Antifa clearly qualifies - they have both extremist political views, and are remarkably willing to use planned violence to further them. The question though involves the nazis, etc who came th Charlottesville, got a permit, and seemingly were there to protest peaceably. Sure, they sometimes have preached violence, but have seemingly been quite inept during the last half century in engaging in such. And that is the place where I question the easy use of the term "terrorist".

FIDO said...

Somehow ARM can't see the difference between a man driving a truck into a peaceful crowd in a summer day...and a man driving a car into a nasty, armed crowd passionately screaming violence against him and his 'friends'.

That ARM WANTS it to be simple and clear cut as a horrible crime against 'peaceful people' is to further his political ends.

Having screaming armed ANTIFA in enormous numbers once again, is a detail he stridently wants to overlook to create a false moral equivalence.

When a Nazi drives a truck into a peaceful summer crowd at Berkley or a lone gunman takes some shots at Democrat events like a Congressional Democrat badminton match or a Rap Concert, yes, I will gladly call that Nazi a terrorist.

One who commits violence against a ravening mob...I will leave that to the jury to decide.

FIDO said...

And yes, I suspect the Vegas shooter had a political motive. I cannot prove it because...missing hard drives and such. Vegas is Reid's town so IF his motive was against Democrat interests...yeah. We've seen hard drives destroyed before.

If I am cynical about destroyed evidence, it is Obama, Holder and Clinton who have made me so...for good reason.

Michael said...

ARM
"Imagine if islamists had marched through Charlottesville with torches and rifles and then one of their number had murdered and maimed multiple people with a vehicle. Who here would support that? Yet the Nazi apologists support the piece of scum James Alex Fields. Disgraceful."

No one would support that any more than anyone here supported J A Fields. But if your example occurred then the White House would be torn down and replaced by the largest mosque in the world to atone for the bad think about the religion of peace.

And there were any number of non-Nazis in Virginia who genuinely did not want shit heads like you deciding that a statue, a fucking statue, of Robert E Lee should be torn down.

Big Mike said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Paco:

No one's "defending" it, no one's "supporting" it. You're being
(a) disingenuous
(b) hysterical
(c) a cynical asshole
(d) all of the above.


ARM's posts have always been (a), disingenuous and sophistical, with, alas,a growing component of (b) as time goes on. Comments that once displayed pretty fair quality trolling have devolved into posts with a chronic low hum of hysteria, punctuated by more and more frequent Inga-grade dumb spaz-outs (as can be viewed on this thread).

As if he's somehow managed unconsciously to troll himself. Disingenuousness is indeed a double-edged sword.

FIDO said...

Honestly, I can't blame ARM. After having SO MANY destructive protests, Antifa Riots, lying press and Democrat shooters trying to murder Republicans...well, it's hard to be the moral monster. He is just trying to recoup an entire year of moral losses.

mandrewa said...

ARM said, He was not a lone wolf. He was with a horde of like minded fascists. It was a fascist convention...Prominent far-right figures in attendance included

And then he lists a number of people and most of them I don't know anything about. But then I saw Baked Alaska and I thought I'll go with this and let's find out what "fascist" means for the modern left. Now I had already seen a five minute interview of Baked Alaska and the political message that I got from that was that he's proud to be American and he's proud to be white.

So let's check that. I go to Google. Search for "Baked Alaska." Listen to a few. It seems be the same message. I'm not finding anything much more.

So seriously? Is that what fascism means now?

The sad thing is, yes, apparently it does. I mean ARM copied this list, so clearly others are thinking this way too.

Here are two Youtube videos that feature Baked Alaska. The first is entertaining and the second is substantive.

Baked TRIGGERS purple-haired SJW granny (Stream Highlight) by Baked Alaska
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-rR1OTbyw8

Did Baked Alaska LEAVE the Alt-Right? FIRST Interview Since CHARLOTTESVILLE (Ep. 1 | Season 6) by TheFallenState
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCSvYmACDPI

Robert Cook said...

"Um...some serious revisionism there. After all, after Stalin, the USSR happily invaded Hungary, Afghanistan etc."

1.) Invading other countries is what powerful countries do. It is bad stuff, but it is not the same as exterminating or otherwise causing the deaths of millions of one's own people.

2.)Look at all the countries we have invaded or attacked or whose governments we have subverted in our history, particularly in the last half-century, and in the last 15 years.

Bruce Hayden said...

"You hate the left, I get that. But, reality stays unchanged by your hatred. By trying to deflect blame from the Nazis you are a Nazi apologist."

Sloppy thinking if I have ever seen or heard it. I am now a Nazi apologist because I called out ARM's sloppy language and selective presentation and interpretation of the facts.

Personally, I see little difference in that statement from those who assert that it is perfectly acceptable to rape women wearing revealing clothes because, apparently, they asked for it. The men involved had no personal agency. They couldn't help themselves. That is seemingly what you are asserting here, that the Antifa types and their fellow travelers were so incensed by the very thought of these nazis marching peaceably, that they couldn't help themselves, chartering busses, and driving, along with their weapons and distinctive uniforms, hundreds of miles, then, when seeing these vile nazis in person couldn't help themselves, and spontaneously started to riot, attempting to physically assault and harm any such vile nazi persons that they could get their hands on. Or something like that.

I am not trying to deflect blame or justify violence. I frankly don't know exactly what happened there. Neither do you. Which is the point. What you do seem exceedingly quick to do here is to strip your nazi of the protections of law because of wrongthink. He wasn't woke enough, and engaged in wrongthink, so can't defend himself when threatened with violence by those who are woke enough. Something like that.

Jason said...

That crowd in Charlottesville sure had a lot of baseball bats handy.

But I don't recall any Antifa baseball or softball games being held that day.

Weird.

I wonder why they had all those bats?

Michael K said...

We see our own version of Red Guards in universities destroying free speech and due process.

Here in Althouse blog, we have our very own Red Guard who calls himself A Reasonable Man, which is a bit of mockery appropriate for a Red Guard.

Jonathan Haidt recognizes it. Here is a bit from USA Today linked from Haidt's site.

A student activist group at Vassar, with the help of Vassar student government, spread false claims to the entire student body that event information was shared by me “on multiple white nationalist websites,” that there was “active encouragement for other white nationalists to come to the event,” and that there was a need to “protect the people that this speaker has targeted in the past.” None of this was true.

Two forums were held attended by over 200 students, faculty and staff, for the purpose of planning how to prevent ME from harming students. The claim reportedly was made at that forum that the “speaker himself is trying to incite violence.” That was a lie without any factual basis.


Did you go to Vassar, ARM ?

mockturtle said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
FIDO said...

Robert Cook

Nice deflection. The truth is that there are an awful lot of sociopath murderous leaders of Communist states and diverting the conversation to 'invasions' is a bit of a tap dance. The invasion point is directed to your white washing of the later part of USSR history.

Stay on the point or concede it.

mockturtle said...

I hereby refuse to answer any allegation that I am a Nazi sympathizer. It's the old, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" ploy and sensible people should refuse to play defense to the left's offense.

mockturtle said...

Cookie, it is well known that the Stalinist government exterminated their own, some of whom included soldiers who had been captured by the Germans and freed after WWII.

mockturtle said...

PS: Roosevelt knew this would happen to repatriated Soviet soldiers but the terms of the armistice demanded their return.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
Somehow ARM can't see the difference between a man driving a truck into a peaceful crowd in a summer day...and a man driving a car into a nasty, armed crowd passionately screaming violence against him and his 'friends'.


This is the face of Nazi apologism. The citizens of Charlottesville are not 'nasty' anymore than the citizens of NYC or London are 'nasty'. Heather Heyer was a citizen of Charlottesville. Nazis came into her town and killed her. It is not complicated.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Bruce Hayden said...
Sloppy thinking if I have ever seen or heard it.


You should read the rubbish you write some time. And yes we know you hate leftists. You should get that looked at.

Michael said...

ARM
How is your statue removal program going? Quiet on that front.

FIDO said...

She may have been a citizen of Charlottesville...marching with a bunch of nasty bile spewing armed MASKED rioters.

She was NOT, as you clearly wish to characterize her, picking flowers in a summer dress as she sang Le Marseilles.

Dogs. Fleas. Sleeping arrangements.

Terrorism generally involves innocents and clear political statements. Direct and imminent self defense threats clearly call that definition into question.

If a mob of people (who are almost always Leftists) were surrounding and pounding on my car, I would be legally okay to drive them down as I escape. There are court rulings on this.

Now...they were NOT surrounding his car nor pounding on it. They were trying to seem threatening. So...

Big Mike said...

A Nazi terrorist killed a woman in Charlottesville. It's not complicated. Don't defend it. This is not rocket science. A Nazi terrorist killed a woman in Charlottesville. It's not complicated. Don't defend it. This is not rocket science.

Well, in ARM's mind, once one reduces the incident to that level it really isn't complicated. Unfortunately for him, there's a real world out there, and the real world can be very complicated.

First up is the fact that Heather Heyer wasn't simply "a woman in Charlottesville." She lived there, yes, but she was an organizer for a large -- much larger than the neo-Nazis -- communist front organization called the IWW. You could look it up (though Wikipedia has scrubbed the connection). So a neo-Nazi killed a communist.

There are lots of things a fair-minded person would like to know. Why was a van allowed to block the intersection at Fourth and Water? Once the exit from Fourth was blocked, why did police not block the entrance to Fourth at Market Street? The Governor's Mansion in Richmond is over an hour's drive away from Emancipation Square in Charlottesville; why was McAuliffe there in the first place and why was he, an untrained bozo, giving direction to trained police officers? Left to their own, the police were trained to keep the two crowds -- the legally present neo-Nazis and the violence-prone antifa -- apart and presumably would have routed the neo-Nazis out of town as expeditiously as possible. What happened to stop this?

Nah, too complex for ARM. "Get a rope" he yells.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
If a mob of people ... were surrounding and pounding on my car


Which is what you could reasonably expect if you had just deliberately killed a local citizen.

You would not be making these excuses if it were an Islamic terrorist. Why the sympathy for a Nazi terrorist?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Big Mike said...
there's a real world out there, and the real world can be very complicated.


Apologists for Islamic terrorists say the same thing. EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

FIDO said...

If a Muslim man had people surrounding his vehicle and he rode them down, I would not call him a terrorist. I would call him someone escaping a bad situation.

A person whom I would call a TERRORIST would be a person who runs down civilians behaving peacefully.

This was not what was occurring in Charlottesville. Not by a long shot. Stop lying about that fact.

I in no way am saying he was justified in running her down. However I am NOT buying your quick, disingenuous and politically motivated call to slap a terrorist label on him.

Not when he was running down armed rioters looking for a fight.

Honestly, the biggest gripe you seem to have is that he used a bigger weapon then they had.

Big Mike said...

Apologists for Islamic terrorists say the same thing. EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

No they don't. Now answer my questions, there's a good boy.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Yes they do. EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

The world is complicated, white men are oppressed by a vast range of forces, some blow back is to be expected.

The world is complicated, the Arab world is in turmoil, at least in part due to US policies, some blow back is to be expected.

There is no valid excuse for the Nazis going into Charlottesville and killing a citizen. Anyone who tries to minimize the horror of this action is a Nazi apologist.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
A person whom I would call a TERRORIST would be a person who runs down civilians behaving peacefully.


All your obfuscating and sophistry isn't going to change the fact that this is exactly what happened. Heather Heyer was not a terrorist, except in the minds of the fever swamp and Nazi sympathizers.

Bruce Hayden said...

I had forgotten that Heyer was an IWW (“Wobbly”) organizer. That increases the odds of a self defense acquittal, since that appears to potentially make her a coconspirator with the people in the mob supposedly chasing the car. Civilians (non-LEOs) can’t kill innocents in self defense, but can kiill inadvertently, anyone else in an attempt to escape. She was therefore unlikely to be an innocent bystander in the eyes of the law, and this may be enough evidence to require the state to disprove her complicity beyond a reasonable doubt.

I am sure that there are probably people alive who remember fascists and nazis fighting the communists in the streets during the 1930s, and in this country, the Wobblys would have been on the communist side of the fights. Déjà vu all over again.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Bruce Hayden - Delusional Nazi apologist.

Robert Cook said...

"Cookie, it is well known that the Stalinist government exterminated their own, some of whom included soldiers who had been captured by the Germans and freed after WWII."

Yes, but I'm talking about after Stalin died. There never was the same mass murders of Soviet people after his death as were the norm during his regime.

"I hereby refuse to answer any allegation that I am a Nazi sympathizer. It's the old, 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' ploy and sensible people should refuse to play defense to the left's offense."

Yes, that's my stance toward those who call me a communist or an apologist for (or admirer of) Stalin. It reveals the stupid or dishonest commenters here.

Bruce Hayden said...

“Heather Heyer was not a terrorist, except in the minds of the fever swamp and Nazi sympathizers.”

How do you know that? Did you know her personally? Were you there? She was apparently an organizer for an organization (IWW) that has apparently espoused violence for probably its entire existence, going back more than a century. We frankly don’t know whether she was there to engage in, or to coordinate, violence, or not. If you weren’t there personally, and didn’t see what she was doing there, and what the other Wabblies there were doing, then you don’t know either whether or not she was a terrorist. I sure don’t.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Keep digging that hole Bruce. Blame the victim. Exactly as Islamic terrorist sympathizers do. She had it coming.

FIDO said...

Bruce: We don't know if she was advocating violence. We can't know her political stance.

But we don't know the political stance of Fields either! ARM asserts it.

Now, Fields could plausibly say 'I saw a bunch of screaming armed people approaching the folks having their licensed protest and it seemed they were going to commit violence and I tried to stop it.'

That is an actual plausible version of events to be left to the minds of the jury. ARM will of course dismiss it, but that is what he does.

She is a complete innocent in his mind because 'narrative'. He is a complete villain, again because Narrative.

He is very likely a murderer. A murderer is not automatically a terrorist. But calling him a murderer isn't enough because ARM wants to reclaim the moral high ground.

Sorry...that is impossible when your fellow travelers were having a RIOT at the same time.

Bruce Hayden said...

I can do that too: “ARM - delusional Antifa terrorist scum appologist and sympathizer.”.

Maybe we can get Ann to set up an online poll to see which of us made the better case.

Robert Cook said...

"Nice deflection. The truth is that there are an awful lot of sociopath murderous leaders of Communist states and diverting the conversation to 'invasions' is a bit of a tap dance. The invasion point is directed to your white washing of the later part of USSR history.

Stay on the point or concede it."


No deflection at all, but responsive to the point. Perhaps you have a different understanding of what the point is. Someone else brought up the matter of post-Stalin Soviet invasions as proof of their evil, not me. I just responded to it.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
But we don't know the political stance of Fields either!


Here's a clue:

"Fields had been photographed taking part in the rally, holding a shield emblazoned with the logo of Vanguard America, a white supremacist organization."

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Bruce Hayden said...
delusional Antifa terrorist scum appologist and sympathizer.”.


Point to where I make apologies for some Antifa person murdering an innocent woman in her own home town. Point to where I do that. If you can't do that then you are digging an even deeper hole for yourself as a Nazi apologist.

You are completely delusional on what happened and what your own motivations are.

FIDO said...

She was marching with armed, masked folks who were screaming violent epithets.

So what does that 'clue' say, Mr. Holmes?

Hint: Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farms...


Forget it. I am trying to change the mind of an ideologue. If you had a single objective bone in your body, you'd concede marching with rioters is pretty skeevy.

But you don't have that single bone.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
So what does that 'clue' say, Mr. Holmes?


To anyone other than a Nazi apologist Fields was quite clearly a Nazi and had in fact been a Nazi sympathizer since high school, a fact that is well documented.

SGT Ted said...

"Imagine if the Nazi apologists here (John, buwaya, Michael K, Bruce Hayden)..."

Historically and politically illiterate smear job. Grow up.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

No one made them make apologies for Fields. They should own what that says about them.

SGT Ted said...

Standing up for due process for a Nazi charged with murder doesn't make anyone a "Nazi Apologist". It makes one an American.

mockturtle said...

Cookie avows: Yes, that's my stance toward those who call me a communist or an apologist for (or admirer of) Stalin. It reveals the stupid or dishonest commenters here.

It's rather like, "if you're not 'one of us', you must be a Nazi/Commie", depending on the source. I agree with you, Cookie, and would prefer to see a more reasoned dialogue [not with ARM, however, who is anything but reasonable but is an obnoxious troll.

Big Mike said...

Shorter ARM: “He killed a commie — get a rope!”

If we don’t join his lynch mob then we’re Nazi apologists, just like the Souterners who declined to join the KKK lynch mobs back in the early 20th century were n****r lovers.

FIDO said...

Again, not talking about HIM.

You seem to feel that simply being a Nazi is criminal in and of itself.

That is no more true than being a Communist should be a crime in and of itself.

Who was the Communist again?

The question is what was the motive of the violence committed. Sorry, but that isn't clear and I reject your assertions. Not because your assertion is impossible. Just that your opinion is so hopelessly partisan and biased that you have zero credibility, particularly when you distort and make false equivalencies.


We are not dinging you for your theory: just for your dishonesty.

AReasonableMan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

No one is suggesting that the Nazi murderer shouldn't get due process. This is a pitiful attempt at distraction. What is inexcusable is making excuses for his actions that are unrelated to any reasonable understanding of who he is and what he did.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
You seem to feel that simply being a Nazi is criminal in and of itself.


Didn't say this.

FIDO said...

You are happy to let him suffer due process...after you try to smear him as a terrorist.

Nothing like poisoning the well...particularly when you seem so selective with the facts.

Smearing isn't justice. Nor is character assassination.

FIDO said...

No. You strongly implied it. Own your comments.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Neither said it or implied it. Happy to see due process proceed at its regular stately pace.

HoodlumDoodlum said...

Geez; over 250 comments and no one has mentioned Rolling Stone's Tsarnev Boy Band cover?

This "how dare you!?" bullshit from the Left is too obvious to take seriously. They routinely lionize terrible people of all stripes: cop killers like Mumia Abu-Jamal, Assata Shakur, Leonard Peltier, terrorists like Oscar Lopez Rivera and Bill Ayers, and even straight up mass murderers like Che. Witness the fawning coverage the NYTimes has given in recent weeks to the 1917 Communist revolution, complete with articles arguing that this or that (sex, women's freedom, leisure time) was better under rule of the same Reds ultimately responsible for north of 100 million deaths!

Like I said: their bullshit here is too obvious to even engage with. Give me a break.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Bruce Hayden said...
Maybe we can get Ann to set up an online poll to see which of us made the better case.


A. An appeal to the mob.
B. You didn't make a case you looked for excuses. Understandable if you were his defense lawyer. Difficult to explain if you think you are an objective observer.

Bad Lieutenant said...

Who here would support that?

You?

Bad Lieutenant said...

Blogger AReasonableMan said...
Neither said it or implied it. Happy to see due process proceed at its regular stately pace.

11/27/17, 11:25 AM


Good, so we're all agreed that Fields is innocent?

Because he hasn't yet been proved guilty in a court of law.

Just like you would go to the stake to assert for your Muslim road rage pal.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

HoodlumDoodlum said...
This "how dare you!?" bullshit from the Left is too obvious to take seriously


Unlike you I don't dismiss one half of the political spectrum as beyond the pale. Instead, I hold individuals accountable for their actual words and arguments.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Bad Lieutenant said...
Just like you would go to the stake to assert for your Muslim road rage pal.


You had to lie to make your argument. Doesn't say a lot for the strength of your argument, does it.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Some of you guys are truly delusional about what happened at Charlottesville and how it fits into the bigger picture. Even with a reasonable economy and a small number of wars, Trump is still very unpopular. A big part of the reason for that is Charlottesville. It was a very simple moral test and he failed spectacularly. The middle class don't want their daughters being mowed down by Nazi thugs. It's not complicated.

Bad Lieutenant said...

AReasonableMan said...
Bad Lieutenant said...
Just like you would go to the stake to assert for your Muslim road rage pal.

You had to lie to make your argument. Doesn't say a lot for the strength of your argument, does it.


Huh what? I usually sigh and let your drivel pass but what lie?

Bad Lieutenant said...

Some of you guys are truly delusional about what happened at Charlottesville and how it fits into the bigger picture. Even with a reasonable economy and a small number of wars, Trump is still very unpopular. A big part of the reason for that is Charlottesville. It was a very simple moral test and he failed spectacularly. The middle class don't want their daughters being mowed down by Nazi thugs. It's not complicated.



Speaking of delusional, do you believe ANYTHING you write on this site?

HoodlumDoodlum said...

AReasonableMan said...Unlike you I don't dismiss one half of the political spectrum as beyond the pale. Instead, I hold individuals accountable for their actual words and arguments.

Not beyond the pale, my friend; you've misread me entirely.
It is precisely because I take the Left and the Leftist Media seriously--because I hold them accountable for their actual words and arguments--that I do not put much weight on their assertions now that giving even neutral coverage to terrible people (terrible right wing people, if you like) is unacceptable and uniquely bad.

The Left spends a lot of time demanding that I care about "root causes" and look beyond the superficial when they're excusing one act of violence/terrorism or another--just so long as the act is committed by a group the Left favors in some way (a religious minority/Muslim, a far left ideologue, etc). I see think pieces about what the "real motivation" was, how it's really America's policy from 4 decades ago that's causing Palestinian terrorists to kill Israeli babies, and on and on. Endless deep dives into cause and motivation...just so long as the ultimate guilt--the REAL cause--is some party the Left doesn't like.

Comes now a reporter to interview a self-proclaimed Nazi sympathizer and even though that interview was in no way flattering to that person the Left wails and cries that it's wrong and immoral to even give such a person a platform--to even engage in any way with this assertions/arguments or dive into what might motivate his behavior and his beliefs. This, of course, is the exact opposite of the Left's usual attitude (as I mention above) and so for that reason I simply don't believe it.

I do not believe the (implied) assertion that the Left has, as a principle, a commitment to not giving airtime to terrible, violent people nor to not allowing them to excuse their beliefs or actions. The pose/posture that they do, therefore, is bullshit.

Rusty said...

AReasonableMan said...
"Another Nazi apologist refuses to own his own beliefs."

Pretty funny coming from one of our resident fascists.
I know. The rule of law is something you bludgeon your enemies with. It doesn't apply to you.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Rusty said...
Pretty funny coming from one of our resident fascists.


For this to make any sense you would have to show that I have espoused fascist beliefs. Knock yourself out. Recognizing that taxes are a necessary part of civilized life does not count.

mockturtle said...

Sometimes ARM reminds me a lot of Chuck. Are they ever seen together?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

I'm the handsome one.

mockturtle said...

I'm the handsome one.

;-) Yep, it's probably the beard.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

"How could the murder have been any more deliberate? He ran his car into a crowd at speed."

Maybe if Fields had actually seen Heyer, and aimed his car directly at her, or even had prior knowledge of her existence, it could have been more deliberate. True, he let his car run into the crowd, not by accelerating, but by coasting too fast for conditions, which is possibly even worse (no engine revving to warn anyone to flee).

However, I doubt, because of the crowd in the street, Fields even saw the car ahead of him. He probably expected the crowd to scatter as he ran through it. He applied the brakes, that is proven, but too late, of course.

That still is a negligent and malicious act, but it's far from clear that he deliberately tried to kill anyone.

Jason said...

ARM still hasn’t posted any evidence of an Antifa baseball team playing a game nearby that day.

S why were all those baseball bats there?

jg said...

Hovater's own words: https://www.tradworker.org/2016/02/is-pantera-a-latin-term-for-big-pussy/

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