"The speedometer crossed 95 mph while the driver narrated everything to law enforcement. 'I was on the phone with dispatch the entire time,' he said. 'I gave them the direction we were going, on what road and everything, and that the vehicle was in sight and that I was getting closer and closer to him.' Kelley’s vehicle, however, broke from the roadway and crashed into a ditch about 11 miles north of the church. Langerdorff pulled his own truck within 25 yards. 'The gentleman that was with me got out, rested his rifle on my hood and kept it aimed at him, telling him to get out get out. There was no movement, there was none of that. I just know his brake lights were going on and off, so he might have been unconscious from the crash or something like that, I’m not sure,' he said."
From "An unlikely hero describes gun battle and 95 mph chase with Texas shooting suspect" (WaPo).
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196 comments:
It's mass shooting entertainment time again.
A slight improvement would be only stories about the guys who killed him.
It makes the next event less attractive to notoriety seekers.
There's some public indifference effect when mass shootings are too frequent, too.
Why an unlikely hero? My experience in Texas is that a guy like this would act.
Regarding mass shooting as entertainment, my first reaction was this guy would make a great movie character. He'd be played by Matthew Mcconaughey.
So, he was trying to get away, not a suicide at the scene.
The motive for this will be related to his domestic abuse charges, I suspect.
Not a hero. Good men rise to the occasion. Beta males need not apply.
WaPo doesn't understand America or masculinity or heroism. This gentlemen put himself in harm's way to help his neighbors, because to do otherwise would simply be wrong.
Guns everywhere, making us safer. First as tragedy, then as tragedy, then as tragedy, then as tragedy, then as tragedy, then as tragedy, ............
Brave men would stand up to the mob and say this slaughter has to stop. Cowards bend to the crowd and accept the status quo.
After 9/11, ARM, did you want to ban airplanes?
So, he was trying to get away, not a suicide at the scene.
Which is unusual. Most active shooter situations end when the shooter is confronted by someone else with a gun, and then the active shooter commits suicide. But by his trying to get away, I wonder if his intent was to get away in order to shoot up some other venue in the future.
disARM: "Guns everywhere, making us safer."
Chicago, toughest guns laws in the country:
Last Week’s Totals (10/29 – 11/4)
Shot & Killed: 10
Shot & Wounded (but not killed): 45
Total Shot: 55
Year to Date:
Shot & Killed: 557
Shot & Wounded(not killed): 2639
Total Shot: 3196
You're a pussy, ARM -- but you knew that.
The pussies are the gun nuts who are afraid to give up their guns. Insecure cowards afraid to walk down the street unarmed. They are the pussies.
Real men, Alpha men, don't need guns to feel secure. Pussies need guns.
AReasonableMan said...
Brave men would stand up to the mob and say this slaughter has to stop.
Oh, how we wish you had been in the church right then and there, to stand up to the shooter and tell him this slaughter had to stop. Bonus if we could see the video.
Real men, Alpha men, founded this country with guns.
Real men, Alpha men, don't infest blog threads to harass and degrade the conversation. But you do nothing else.
Why are there cowboys in Texas? Texas is a Southern state not a Western state, which is usually associated with cowboys. Does wearing a cowboy hat automatically make you a cowboy or cowgirl by definition or is it just a fashion statement? If "giddyup!" is shouted to make a horse go faster, does "giddydown!" make him slow down? No! for that we have "whoa!"
whoa
[(h)wō]
EXCLAMATION
used as a command to a horse to make it stop or slow down.
synonyms: stop · easy · slow down · hold your horses
Bad Lieutenant said...
degrade the conversation.
With your particular conversation there is nothing to degrade.
“Each ‘gun drama’ leading up to the inevitable attempt at prohibition taught the public something. In this case the contradictory value of an armed citizenry”
Deven Kelley posting a picture of his AR-15 style rifle on Facebook with the caption, “she’s a bad bitch” is not my idea of an alpha male. The belief that gun ownership makes you an alpha male is so preposterous that it is sad. Little men trading their manhood for a piece of metal.
Trumpit blathered: "Why are there cowboys in Texas? Texas is a Southern state not a Western state, which is usually associated with cowboys. Does wearing a cowboy hat automatically make you a cowboy or cowgirl by definition or is it just a fashion statement? If "giddyup!" is shouted to make a horse go faster, does "giddydown!" make him slow down? No! for that we have "whoa!"
whoa EXCLAMATION
used as a command to a horse to make it stop or slow down.
synonyms: stop · easy · slow down · hold your horses"
Why debating lefties is generally a waste of time.
chickelit said...
In this case the contradictory value of an armed citizenry”
There is nothing contradictory. If real men, men of character, had stood up and said, enough is enough, there wouldn't have been a shooting in the first place.
"The belief that gun ownership makes you an alpha male is so preposterous that it is sad."
Who made that claim, little man?
ARM: The pussies are the gun nuts who are afraid to give up their guns. Insecure cowards afraid to walk down the street unarmed. They are the pussies.
Real men, Alpha men, don't need guns to feel secure. Pussies need guns.
Liberals are always desperately trying to project their own inadequacies and neuroses on their betters.
Blogger Trumpit said...
Why are there cowboys in Texas? Texas is a Southern state not a Western state, which is usually associated with cowboys. Does wearing a cowboy hat automatically make you a cowboy or cowgirl by definition or is it just a fashion statement? If "giddyup!" is shouted to make a horse go faster, does "giddydown!" make him slow down? No! for that we have "whoa!"
Why are there cowboys in Texas? Because that's where the cows are.
10.9 million cows (2nd place is 6-7 million)
130 million acres of farms and ranches
$10.5 billion worth of cattle
$855 annual beef exports
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the Ft. Worth stockyards, history of the Chisholm Trail, the King Ranch.
It is the UT "Longhorns" as opposed to Guernseys or Holsteins.
Texas is part of the Southwest as opposed to the South.
disARM said: "If real men, men of character, had stood up and said, enough is enough, there wouldn't have been a shooting in the first place."
Apparently there are no real men of character in Chicago. And they've had 3,196 opportunities.
God bless Texas. Texas is a gun-loving, god-fearing, homo-hating state. Why weren't the parishioners armed to the teeth? I'd bring my Uzi into the pews if they let me. I'd wipe the floor with the shooter firing my Uzi at 600 rounds per minute. It would have been an old-fashioned turkey shoot If I was there. We must end the gun madness by arming everyone to defend themselves from the lunatics.
Real men, Alpha men, don't need guns to feel secure. Pussies need guns.
You are a little person, ARM.
Real men would insist on a well regulated militia, not the ragtag army of lunatic losers with automatics terrorizing the country that we have now. Real men understand that discipline and a higher purpose makes the man, not gun ownership.
Republicans are being violently attacked (including Rand Paul, whose broken ribs ARM thinks are utterly hilarious) and the dumb son of a five dollar whore calls us pussies for not giving up our guns? Uh huh. Make it easier for your antifa buddies to attack us? Don’t think so.
You could move to the UK, ARM. Not only are there no guns, but you practically need a signed letter from the Queen just to fight back if attacked. This is a different country.
"AReasonableMan said...
The pussies are the gun nuts who are afraid to give up their guns. Insecure cowards afraid to walk down the street unarmed. They are the pussies.
Real men, Alpha men, don't need guns to feel secure. Pussies need guns."
If ARM was there he would be pleading for his life like the little bitch that he is. Crying. Begging. Please! PLEASE! PLEAAASSSE!!!! Then the real man would be dead.
"Real men understand that discipline and a higher purpose makes the man, not gun ownership."
Another strawman from the little man!
It all makes sense. ARM knows that an armed citizenry is more difficult to herd into the cattle cars to be sent to the "Climate Deniar Camps" or the "Free Market Reeducation Camps" or the "You WILL Pledge Fealty to Clinton Camps". Thus, he wants our guns removed, forcibly if need be.
Good luck with that.
Tell ya what ARM. You're such an Alpha badass? Go door to door in Lubbock, TX, and demand homeowners turn in their guns. Or, if you prefer, go door to door in the south side of Chicago and start with all the ILLEGAL gun owners there, and demand they give you their guns. Surely the sheer force of your gun-free masculinity will compel them to comply.
Or maybe YOU'RE the pussy here. Ponder it, cuck.
Relax boys, no one is going to take your guns. If gun lover Adam Lanza laying a school full of innocent children to waste couldn't move the needle nothing will. History will judge, however, and judge harshly.
I miss Texas, lived there for 10 yrs and found a wife there. Great people.
The term “militia” is formally defined 10 US Code section 246. If you want to change the definition, you have to pass a law amending the US Code.
You still haven’t apologized for making light of Rand Paul's broken ribs, ARM.
Why are there cowboys in Texas? Texas is a Southern state not a Western state, which is usually associated with cowboys.
A wise person would ask why there are so many "cowboys" not in Texas.
Texas is a Southern state not a Western state, which is usually associated with cowboys.
A wise person avoids the continuum fallacy.
God bless Texas.
Please remain well clear of horses, cattle, Resistol hats, firearms, and Texas.
"Relax boys, no one is going to take your guns."
It didn't take long for you to roll over and show your [yellow] belly, little man!
Relax boys, no one is going to take your guns.
Historical correction. Non-pussy Stalin disarmed the kulaks. Non-pussy Hitler disarmed the communists and the Jews. If Americans are disarmed it won't it won't be done by a pussy like you, ARM.
AReasonableMan said...
Bad Lieutenant said...
degrade the conversation.
With your particular conversation there is nothing to degrade.
11/6/17, 6:23 AM
To reuse a meme that's been going around on the blog, What an exquisite pleasure it is to be called a moron by a cretin.
You're as bad as PBJ, with the additional filip that he is trying to sound as bumptious as he is, whereas you do it naturally.
Real men, Alpha men, don't infest blog threads to harass and degrade the conversation.
There comes a time when such people simply go too far for continued social interaction. There comes a time when they have crossed the line, and at that point there is nothing left to say except "anathema," and then you simply ignore them and stop engaging with them.
One way to stop interacting with them, to stop giving them attention and further life to continue their utter obnoxiousness, is to simply stop reading what they say. You see their name and scroll right down to the next comment. Let them rage in the dark alone.
Hope this guy has nothing embarrassing in his past. Media will be all over it.
Big Mike said...
You still haven’t apologized for making light of Rand Paul's broken ribs, ARM.
Grow up. Rand Paul got into a fight with his neighbor. It happens thousands of times a day across the nation. There is nothing special about Rand Paul.
By the way, the term “militia” is formally defined in the common law. The federal government does not get to define the terms under which it's power is limited.
Why is he an "unlikely" hero? Don't they like his tattoos?
Re: the video clip (trying to ignore the cock fight above)
I'm sure many will try to squeeze this guy into a stereotype cubby hole. Let see:
- well spoken (without a heavy accent)
- well dressed (or at least a well coordinated outfit with a nicely beaded hat band)
- heavily tattooed AND well groomed facial hair
- gun owner
- (and I suspect) not a church goer. Doesn't sound like his Sunday routine includes church
PS Trumpit. It a Baptist church; they are congregants, not parishioners.
"If gun lover Adam Lanza ..."
This is exactly why no meaningful legislative reform, the thing the Left calls out for after every shooting, happens. Not only should a schizophrenic (or bipolar) never have a gun, they also should have mandated medical intervention. Conflating someone with a mental disease with normal gun owners is very cheap, even for an internet forum.
Shame on you and your easy "pussies" and "beta" comments about someone who confronted an armed gunman. Shame on the Left for spitting in the wind over a set-in-stone Amendment every time innocent people are shot.
Steve Scalise just got into a fight with a distant neighbor. There is nothing special about Steve Scalise.
--ARM, before too long
"Rand Paul got into a fight with his neighbor."
Behold the passive voice! No, little man, a cowardly leftist jumped the senator from behind while he was mowing his grass.
"Why are there cowboys in Texas? Texas is a Southern state not a Western state, which is usually associated with cowboys. Does wearing a cowboy hat automatically make you a cowboy or cowgirl by definition or is it just a fashion statement? If "giddyup!" is shouted to make a horse go faster, does "giddydown!" make him slow down? No! for that we have "whoa!""
Having grown up in the "west", Texas, for me, has always been more southern than western. When I was living in Austin, I was always a bit uncomfortable with the loud, back thumping, good old boy way of socializing. Real westerners are a lot quieter, more private. But then, my GF when I was there was from W TX, and could fit in well in the west, except for the loud, western patterned, jogging suits that she wore for leisure.
That said, the easy part of this is that Texas has cowboys because they have cattle. Historically, during the mid 19th century, there were routine cattle drives up from W TX to Dodge, KS, etc, where the cattle were sold and put on trains for back east. And, it is still alive there. When I moved to Austin, I found out how they hid Beevo, the UT mascot, from A&M miscreants - in one of the local beeve (long horn cattle) herds that dot the countryside. The thing that is unique about Texas, in the west, is that it's ranches weren't really controlled, in size, by the Homestead Act, since most of the land never belonged to the federal govt, as it did for most of the rest of the country west of the Appalachians. Which meant some extremely large cattle ranches. Sure, you could grow cotton, etc, in the east, along the Gulf Coast, but what do you do in the much drier center and esp west of the state? And where did cowboy culture and dress come from in the first place? Much of it was Spanish/Mexican, up through, esp Texas, thanks to those cattle drives and cattle industry moving north into western US after the Civil War.
But cowboy boots and hats have become somewhat popular throughout much of the south, despite their never having had the cattle industry that TX did. My experience is that you are more likely for cops to have cowboy hats as part of their uniforms in parts of the south, than in the west. Esp state police.
Kate, great stuff, but you need to translate "Shame" into a concept ARM can understand, or maybe it's a language thing.
Why "unlikely?"
And why didn't they say "unlikely heroes"?
Kate said...
Shame on you and your easy "pussies" and "beta" comments
I never used the term beta and responded in kind to being insulted as a pussy. If you had any integrity you would apologize.
Why are you so concerned with white people in Texas with guns, ARM? What about the people of Chicago? The slaughter in Sutherland Springs is insignificant compared to any given week in Chicago for years. Consider these 2017 statistics:
Shot & Killed: 557
Shot & Wounded: 2640
Total Shot: 3197
Total Homicides: 601
Is it because nearly 80% of those 3197 shot YTD are black? If that's the case, why not admit your racism. Don't be afraid. The first step to redemption is confession.
ARM said: There is nothing contradictory. If real men, men of character, had stood up and said, enough is enough, there wouldn't have been a shooting in the first place.
Cool. When you are in the church or other place where a demented person is shooting up the place...YOU be the first to stand up and say stop it! Enough is enough.
You first.....yeah that'll stop the crazies, the criminals and the evil doers. The power of ARM whining staaaap it!
I never used the term beta and responded in kind to being insulted as a pussy.
Those who would unfairly Insult ARM need a thick dictionary.
Quaestor said...
Why are you so concerned with white people
Facts not in evidence. The lack of well regulated militias is a problem in all communities.
AReasonableMan said...
The lack of well regulated militias is a problem in all communities.
What does that mean?
Quaestor said...
Those who would unfairly Insult ARM need a thick dictionary.
Just a thick head will do, based on what I have seen so far.
ARM--you are not being so reasonable today. An Uzbeck terrorist took out 8 people in New York last week with a rental van. How do you feel about rental vans? Are you a ban the van fan?
The lesson the Left always tries to spread is that non-crazy, non-criminal gun owners must relinquish the right to self defense to make up for the actions of crazy criminals who use guns.
I hope that pattern never changes. We should all encourage the pattern.
Why weren't the parishioners armed to the teeth?
Because - like virtually all venues where mass shootings happen - it is illegal to bring a gun into a church in Texas.
@ARM, Rand Paul was attacked from behind violently enough to break five ribs. Trying to reduce this to a simple squabble between neighbors is bullshit.
The killer drove 37 miles to commit his crimes. Why? Why did he choose that tiny chapel attended by simple working-class people? If he was after Christians generally there are dozens of much larger churches in New Braunfels. Maybe he had it in for Trump voters. He was dressed in black, and it was Resistance Weekend, was it not?
Queastor:
The talk this morning was that his in-laws attended the church he attacked. Details will be forthcoming.
Facts not in evidence.
The fact is ARM's deafening silence on a matter long standing. Qui tacet consentit.
Amadeus 48 said...
ARM--you are not being so reasonable today.
I am pissed off. This is just one of an endless stream of massacres that could have been avoided and are largely avoided in other countries. It is another black eye for the country and its citizens. We have become a county incapable of addressing real problems with real solutions.
ARM has all the answers.
Just ask him.
Pissed off enough to attack a neighbor from behind?
I'd say unregulated emotions are a dangerous thing.
...it is illegal to bring a gun into a church in Texas.
Formidably wise was the person who proposed that law.
Trumpit said...
Why are there cowboys in Texas? Texas is a Southern state not a Western state, which is usually associated with cowboys. Does wearing a cowboy hat automatically make you a cowboy or cowgirl by definition or is it just a fashion statement? If "giddyup!" is shouted to make a horse go faster, does "giddydown!" make him slow down? No! for that we have "whoa!"
whoa
[(h)wō]
EXCLAMATION
used as a command to a horse to make it stop or slow down.
synonyms: stop · easy · slow down · hold your horses
God, what an idiot. Texas has cowboys because they raise cattle on vast ranches there, and historically was the start of of the Chisholm Trail to drive cattle to rail heads in Kansas for shipping to feed the useless mouths in New York.
ARMan: The lack of well regulated militias is a problem in all communities.
What does that mean?
I guess it means that ARM thinks we should have more militias at the local level. Not a bad idea. I'm pretty sure that if push comes to shove we (in our locality) will be well able to form a militia modeled the historical likeness of Minutemen ....which was what was intended by the writers of the Constitution AT the time they wrote it.
Minutemen were civilian colonists who independently organized to form well-prepared militia companies self-trained in weaponry, tactics, and military strategies from the American colonial partisan militia during the American Revolutionary War. They were also known for being ready at a minute's notice, hence the name.
Actually, WE already have the beginnings of such in our gun clubs/shooting range actions and local Citizen's Patrol units. (formed because we have minimal police or sheriff coverage during most of the day and none/zero/nada at night)
Every community should have the ability to protect itself, join with other communities in purpose and have the training to be effective in doing so. Not dependent on the government either, as that would defeat the purpose of a militia.
Chicago needs a militia.
Quaestor said...
The killer drove 37 miles to commit his crimes. Why? Why did he choose that tiny chapel attended by simple working-class people? If he was after Christians generally there are dozens of much larger churches in New Braunfels. Maybe he had it in for Trump voters. He was dressed in black, and it was Resistance Weekend, was it not?
One clue might be that his mother-in-law reportedly has a Sutherland address. Was she in the congregation?
"Real men, Alpha men, don't need guns to feel secure. Pussies need guns."
This argument has always seemed nonsensical to me. It assumes that reasonable reliance upon the local police will do an adequate job of protecting one's spouse and children. My partner's son-in-law voiced this exact sentiment recently. We laughed quite a bit when we got away from them. Talk about a pussy - he was raised by a widowed single mother and older sister, and it shows. He had no male role models, so can be excused for not understanding that one of men's societal duties is to protect women and children,and esp their own such. My experience has been just the opposite of what ARM claims here. Owning guns and knowing how to use them to protect others is something that alpha males do, much more than betas. It is part of self-reliance. Part of why they are alphas is because women are more comfortable that they are secure around them, than with (apparent) betas like ARM, and our S-in-L.
Though, there was is nothing keeping women from having guns themselves to feel secure. My partner's mother was raised by a cowboy, and could easily outshot her father. Growing up in Las Vegas, to beat the heat in the summer, her mother would throw the 5 kids in the station wagon, and they would tour the SW pirtion of the country, camping at night. Father would drive to meet them on weekends. She was always armed, both with a handgun, and usually at least a .22. So my partner learned from her mother how to shoot at a young age, and, until some optic nerve damage a decade ago, could outshot me. Even today, if you were to break in here, she is more likely to be the one to shoot you, because she spends much more time around the house.
Too bad Rand didn't have a well regulated militia nearby to shoot his crazy progtard neighbor in the face.
It is no longer illegal to carry a gun in church in Texas. Hasn't been for quite awhile.
We have become a county incapable of addressing real problems with real solutions.
Those disARM'ed of the facts are led inevitably to such tripe.
"I am pissed off. This is just one of an endless stream of massacres that could have been avoided and are largely avoided in other countries. It is another black eye for the country and its citizens. We have become a county incapable of addressing real problems with real solutions."
My suggestion to you then, is to move to one of those places. Canada might be viable for you. But here? This country was founded, in part, in reaction to gun control (with our Revolutionary War starting in response to attempt by the British to seize arms from the colonists). And now? It would be logistically impossible to disarm the American populace. We have maybe more guns than people in this country, most in private hands. Gun owners massively outnumber potential gun grabbing govt employees, and the bulk of the police and enlisted ranks in the military come from the gun owning parts of the country. State and local police, outside the big cities wouldn't cooperate, nor would most state govts, which means no National Guard either. Federal military are prohibited from police work through Posse Comitatus, and if overridden, are probably more likely to shoot their officers than enforcing unconstitutional gun grabbing. Which leaves 100k or so armed federal police of one type or another, trying to disarm maybe 1,000x as many armed civilians. And, it is getting worse, with the supply of firearms in civilian hands currently growing significantly faster than the population. Too late to close the door to the barn - the cows are already out.
There's this: Daily Mail
...and this: The Guardian
Hey arm, maybe you could start with something easier, like eliminating illegal drugs. That's not even protected by the Bill of Rights.
Brave men would stand up to the mob and say this slaughter has to stop.
Talk is cheap, ARM. And we know how frugal you are.
Neither saying 'this slaughter has to stop' nor increasing gun laws will help end the slaughter.
Militant atheist kills churchgoers is a storyline that will not be pursued by the MSM.
"We have become a county incapable of addressing real problems with real solutions."
Agreed. Crooked Hillary is still not in prison, where she belongs. Two standards of justice in this country - one for the elites, and one for the rest of us. And, as long as that is the case, much of America is not going to trust their govt, run by those elites. Making things worse is the corruption of the democratic process, which allows those elites to retain power, from nakedly buying votes with taxpayer monies, as the Dems so routinely do, to stuffing ballot boxes, to massively violating election laws, as she apparently did, by grossly violating campaign contribution limits by flushing big money contributions through multiple layers and legal entities.
His FB page showed an Antifa emblem. He was just doing his part to start the revolution.
ARM is raking in the hooker piss today, courtesy of Papa Soros. Congrats!
Brave men would stand up to the mob and say this slaughter has to stop.
He forgot to stamp his foot.
Quaestor,
That is the one thing ARM never forgets.
Blogger mockturtle said...
His FB page showed an Antifa emblem. He was just doing his part to start the revolution.
11/6/17, 8:26 AM
Has that been verified somewhere, MT?
Blogger Trumpit said...
God bless Texas. Texas is a gun-loving, god-fearing, homo-hating state.
You can be just as fagadocious here in Texas as you want. You just won't get as much traction in forcing the uninterested to celebrate it. You conflate this with hate. I guess you won't be spending your tourist dollars here.
Oso Negro asks: Has that been verified somewhere, MT?
I saw the page yesterday before it had been deleted. The page also showed his rifle with the caption, "She's a mean bitch!". Also included atheist messages.
Please note that I don't trust ANY news source fully but it appeared to be authentic.
Add me to the list: "unlikely" why?
Leave it to the WAPO to characterize this guy as an unlikely hero. Totally clueless about anything more than 20 miles from either coast.
@mockturtle - And you saw the antifa symbol there? I had heard that but didn't see anything published anywhere. Facebook is getting quicker about this stuff. And the media doesn't report the lefty madmen with quite as much vigor as the others.
Correction. The caption to the rifle photo said 'She's a bad bitch', not a mean bitch.
Oso, you can still find screen shots of that page here and there but they seem to be disappearing fast. And I don't know that it's authentic. It looks to be.
I really don't see the need for these weapons. A couple weekends ago, I counted several instances of 25 shots in about 30 seconds, it sounded like he was working on trying to get automatic behavior out of the gun.He got little bursts a couple of times.
AReasonableMan said...
"Brave men would stand up to the mob and say this slaughter has to stop."
And your just the beta male to do it ARM.
I just think that disregard for the Constitution is a bad thing too.
Snopes debunks the claim that Kelley's FB page shows him to be 'a member of Antifa'. Gee, I'm totally convinced that it must be a fake! /sarc
How does one become a 'member' of Antifa, anyway. The fact that one shows an Antifa flag on their page might not identify them as a member but might--just might--imply support.
If FB wanted to debunk this allegation they could have left it up for everyone to see.
Guys like Kelley and Richard Dawkins give atheism a bad name.
As I suspected, the church was targeted by this creep because his ex=wife and her mother belonged. I don't know if they were there yesterday.
Sheriff Tackett said the family was not at the church at the time of the shooting, but spoke to investigators yesterday after the massacre.
The asshole couldn't even get that right.
ARM has all the answers.
Just ask him.
He might be too busy grabbing pussies to stop them from shooting up places.
Sheriff Tackett said the family was not at the church at the time of the shooting, but spoke to investigators yesterday after the massacre.
The asshole couldn't even get that right.
Then again, now the family has to live forever with the fact that this guy targeted innocent people for the mere fact that they knew them.
Hate to be speculative, but I wonder if his end game was to go the family, hold them hostage while making them watch the coverage of the event, and then off them before doing himself in.
He is dressed in AntiFa black in every picture I have seen, but if Snopes says he wasn't a dues paying member...
I don't care what Snopes says. I do not see how they could have conducted an exhaustive investigation in less than 24 hours. If Mockturtle saw the guy's Facebook page, and it was displaying the antifa flag, that is a pretty good clue as to where his sympathies lay.
Just a thick head will do, based on what I have seen so far.
Not remarkably nimble are we, ARM?
Snopes' subtle mendacity is well known. Everything hinges on what the definition of is is.
AReasonableMan said...
Deven Kelley posting a picture of his AR-15 style rifle on Facebook with the caption, “she’s a bad bitch” is not my idea of an alpha male. The belief that gun ownership makes you an alpha male is so preposterous that it is sad. Little men trading their manhood for a piece of metal.
Duh. Guns are fun, occasionally useful, and most importantly a responsibility. Thinking that having one makes you a "real man" or some such nonsense is just stupid, like thinking having a college degree makes you smart. It's reversing the causation in a correlation. The fact that you can only conceive of gun ownership in this capacity says more about your insecurities than anything else.
There is a difference in worldview in play here. I told my spouse what happened last night after dinner. After a few minutes he came downstairs and said that he was going to buy a handgun and get his CCW. He already owns a lot of rifles. He doesn't want to depend on someone else to keep his family safe. The problem isn't guns, it's our society. But there are people in this world who would rather keep society the same and put themselves and everyone else in bondage as a solution. I suppose most of us here would rather change many hearts and minds and keep our freedom.
@Birches, I hope your hubby goes to the range and rents out various handguns to try them out and decide what's best for him. I was a bit surprised at what worked best for me. You may also want to consider a Smith & Wesson lightweight "Ladysmith" for your pure and a CCW of your own.
Iconochasm is right; guns are fun but also a serious responsibility. I compete in target shooting contests (not at a championship level) and I enjoy the people and the challenge of hitting tiny objects a long distance away. I hope I never need either my home defense gun nor my kitchen fire extinguisher, but I have both for a reason.
[ARM:] This is just one of an endless stream of massacres that could have been avoided and are largely avoided in other countries.
Nice, France.
Google it.
---
If only there was something that could filter idiots out of comment threads. You know, where you could click on a commenter like, say, ARM, and just hide all his utterly useless bollocks.
There is!
Killfile.
Except, sadly, even though I've tried it several times, it is very hit and miss.
Shame. Because ARM and PBJ, and Inga in her various incarnations, are a shameless waste of the world's valuable supply of pixels.
--
Oh, how we wish you had been in the church right then and there, to stand up to the shooter and tell him this slaughter had to stop. Bonus if we could see the video.
Didn't copy who said that first.
Threadwinner.
Iconochasm said...
The fact that you can only conceive of gun ownership in this capacity
This is not about me it is about the Deven Kelley's of this world. Clearly there is a problem in how they conceive of themselves and their place in the world and it is being exacerbated by the lack of discipline in their communities. Their communities are dysfunctional and the obsession with guns is one part this dysfunction.
The Daily Mail writer also referred to the Baptist church service as '[being] at mass', whoever supra was concerned about the user of the term 'parishioner'. The US and religion are both odd and weird foreign countries to those people.
"Clearly there is a problem in how they conceive of themselves and their place in the world and it is being exacerbated by the lack of discipline in their communities. Their communities are dysfunctional and the obsession with guns is one part this dysfunction."
Show us on the doll where the mean gun touched you.
This is just one of an endless stream of massacres that could have been avoided and are largely avoided in other countries.
Which is why they are now working on a law to ban knives in the UK.
I guess it means that ARM thinks we should have more militias at the local level.
It's actually an attempt to push the canard that the Second Amendment right to own a gun is actually only a right for the state to organize a militia.
Rand Paul got into a fight with his neighbor.
No...Paul was attacked from behind by his neighbor.
There is nothing special about Rand Paul.
Except for the little fact that he is the Speaker of the House and a prominent Republican of course.
Via Wiki:
Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is primarily used to describe two groups within the United States:
Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia.[9] (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)
Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.[10]
This will, perhaps, help to subvert all the negative stereotypes about men with neck tattoos. I'm bound to confess that I would be more inclined to think a guy with a neck tattoo would be more likely the villain than the hero in a drama of this type.
Rand Paul is not the Speaker of the House.
Rand Paul is not the Speaker of the House.
He thinks he is.....my bad though...
and it is being exacerbated by the lack of discipline in their communities. Their communities are dysfunctional
The. Lack. Of. Discipline.
In their communities.
Do communities even discipline, bro? What does that MEAN? Sounds rather fascistic, TBH, ARM.
Bonus points: are dysfunctional black/brown communities undiscipline--
WARNING. RACIAL TENSION ALERT. PLEASE EVACUATE THE BLOG FOR YOUR NEAREST SAFE SPACE.
Why an unlikely hero? My experience in Texas is that a guy like this would act.
As P.J. O'Rourke said, "Life is full of little ironies for stupid people."
ARM has a long history of bashing the white underclass.
The shooter had taken a hostage. These two brave good men with guns stopped this killer from leaving the area and running loose with the real capacity to kill more people. Whether or not they actually shot him is irrelevant. He apparently killed himself at the end and this stopped his rampage. Had these two men not followed the police would have been hard pressed to find him. Fortunately people like Tim in Vermont was not there.
The second amendment will not be repealed anytime soon. In the recent past, calls for gun control has been political suicide for democrats.
The real question is how do we as a free country develop legal and regulatory checks and balances to prevent or reduce these horrific mass killings without infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms. We don't ban cars, trucks or airplanes, that is true. However, we do require registration, training, licenses, and insurance for these potentially dangerous machines. All the gun owners I know are responsible and most people I see and meet at the range know how to handle their weapons safely. Obviously these people are not the problem.
The problem is the very few crazy people like all the mass murderers of recent history. I don't think it's possible to identify and neutralize these nutbars in the pre-crime stage without compromising the civil rights of the innocent.
Rather than having a dick measuring contest, perhaps some of you self-proclaimed Alpha-Dogs could show a little sympathy for folks like ARM who get upset when innocent people are slaughtered. I mean, it does suck that the US has these private party, non-criminal turf, non-political mass killings, right? Just
I wouldn't mind having biennial mandatory gun safety, maintenance and marksmanship training to be put on for at no cost to the participants by the organized militia and/or the Army and Marine Corp. Also, it would be beneficial to get kids involved via their High Schools similar to the way driver training was conducted back in the day. It has to be free because we don't want gun ownership to be the exclusive right of the well off. Even so, this would not eliminate all or even a significant portion of the mass shooting events.
I also wouldn't mind having a better mental health screening and rehabilitation program. An example of what's wrong is my sister in law. She was a habitual pot and mushroom user who did Burning Man every year. One day, she cc's my wife an email she sent to the Dali Lama that contained a conspiracy-laden anti-government screed that called for violent revolution. The next day, she posted some provocative pics on Facebook that included automatic weapons. I called the cops and had them perform a safety check. They reported back that she was as mad as a march hare, but had no guns, the house was clean and there was food in the fridge. Nothing they could do. She kept spinning out of control so my wife and other SIL went up for a visit and talked to the neighbors to find out what was going on. Everyone was concerned as she would make menacing comments and exhibited extreme paranoia. It took several attempts to get her help, but the judges all said that they needed proof that she was an imminent threat to herself or others before they could put her in a commitment program to get her help. Finally, after she was arrested for mowing down her neighbors fence, mailbox and doing donuts on their front lawn with her motor-home, was she once again brought up before a judge. Fortunately, she shaved her head bald while in jail, then made threats to the judge in open court. Two months later, she was cured and 8-years later, she is still doing great. She later thanked us all for doing the intervention, but the system made it very very difficult because the biggest concern is the civil rights of the crazy person.
but the system made it very very difficult because the biggest concern is the civil rights of the crazy person.
Well, that's the problem, innit?
AReasonableMan said...
Real men understand that discipline and a higher purpose makes the man, not gun ownership.
My higher purpose is to protect freedom from people like you.
Guns make it easier/possible.
Howard said...
The real question is how do we as a free country develop legal and regulatory checks and balances to prevent or reduce these horrific mass killings without infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms.
It was already illegal for him to have guns. It is already illegal to shoot other people.
Making gun free zones should be illegal is the only logical law that would help in these situations since the vast majority of these incidents happen in gun free zones for obvious reasons.
Howard said...
I wouldn't mind having biennial mandatory gun safety, maintenance and marksmanship training to be put on for at no cost to the participants by the organized militia and/or the Army and Marine Corp. Also, it would be beneficial to get kids involved via their High Schools similar to the way driver training was conducted back in the day. It has to be free because we don't want gun ownership to be the exclusive right of the well off. Even so, this would not eliminate all or even a significant portion of the mass shooting events.
I like this idea. a better armed citizenry would help with these incidents.
Take the mandatory word out and you will get better participation from the people on the margins you want to help.
Howard said...
I also wouldn't mind having a better mental health screening and rehabilitation program.
The story you told is compelling. I think there are forces at work in our country that preclude progress on this issue. They are the same people that want to import refugees and open borders. Their policies have turned inner cities into war zones.
They want the entire country to be Chicago. "They" = ARM.
Achilles: How was it illegal for the killer to have guns? In any event, that's besides the point because it's very easy to obtain guns under the radar.
Also, having more untrained armed civilians filling up the public spaces will not prevent mass killings because the vast majority of people don't want the responsibility to carry a weapon in public.
It seems the real problem is no one ratted him out based on his crazy facebook behavior.
This is a multi-pronged problem that won't be solved by more concealed carry. Encouraging more Barney Fife wanna-be's to be armed will likely backfire and put our gun rights in greater jeopardy.
I should assume that Kelley must have acquired his weapon illegally, since he was court-martialed for domestic violence and would not have passed a background check. It only emphasizes the folly of increased gun laws. Typically, it's not those who obey gun laws that we have to be concerned about. The old saying, "If we outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns' is as true today as ever.
Achillies: Chicago and the other big violent cities are a huge problem that in many ways are a side effect of a combination free society/nanny state/drug war. To fix it, alter the nanny state to encourage education and work, end the drug war and reduce civil rights to catch more criminals... these are all political suicide just like the gun-grabber proposals.
The real problem is us. We want easy, cheap, quick solutions in a world where silver bullets don't exist.
mockturtle: That's part of the problem, the left wants to ban guns or make it so only the wealthy can afford to own guns. It isn't going to happen until the millennials are in charge.
Therefore, the risk to the 2nd amendment is about 25-years down the road. If we want to preserve that right, we need to start now to get the millennials on board. Unfortunately, they are hooked on 538 and Snopes.
According to Texas Governor Abbott, Kelley was denied a gun permit. His rifle was illegally obtained.
" Encouraging more Barney Fife wanna-be's to be armed will likely backfire and put our gun rights in greater jeopardy."
There are many, many examples of defensive gun use that never see the light of MSM day,
It does not fit the narrative, which you seem to have adopted.
This was clearly a domestic violence problem.
Any cop will tell you those are the most dangerous calls they get.
"it would be beneficial to get kids involved via their High Schools similar to the way driver training was conducted back in the day. "
Howard, this used to be routine in many high schools. The left has ended the civilian use of guns wherever they can.
Culture War 101.
AReasonableMan ... Am I to conclude that you expect people to interpret the first A of your name as capital alpha?
Brave men would stand up to the mob and say this slaughter has to stop.
One did.
With a gun.
Or didn't you notice that?
Now, if MORE! guns are the problem, why do we never, ever, ever see a mass shooting at a gun show? Why?
But there is no reasoning with people like you. You simply like to dance on the bodies of the dead to push your political agenda. So, fuck you. The end.
Lest anyone get carried away worrying about “mass killings”, keep the statistics from above in mind:
Chicago, toughest guns laws in the country:
Last Week’s Totals (10/29 – 11/4)
Shot & Killed: 10
Shot & Wounded (but not killed): 45
Total Shot: 55
Year to Date:
Shot & Killed: 557
Shot & Wounded(not killed): 2639
Total Shot: 3196
Everything is relative, but some things are emphasized by the MSM while others are studiously ignored. We have a gun violence problem in this country, but most of it has nothing to do with mass murders, like this one in the church in Texas, and everything to do with Dem machine run inner cities, and esp the young black men growing up fatherless thanks, to no small extent, that party’s insistence on funding and promoting that sort of parenting, starting with LBJ’s ill fated “War On Poverty”. This shooting is equivalent to maybe two weeks of shooting deaths in Chicago, but those aren’t a one time thing, but rather, go on the other 50 weeks a year too.if you add up all of these “mass murders” outside these big Blue inner cities, over a year, they are merely noise, a drop in the bucket, in comparison to the routine inner city violence. Yet, that is what is emphasized by the MSM, and not the many thousands who die every year as a result of the misguided progressive policies that they almost uniformly support.
Mike, speaking of culture wars, the Cal State Uni system just eliminated Algebra because graduation rates and time to complete degrees stats reflected poorly.
The squishy left has a lot to answer for in enabling psychological, physical and intellectual weakness in children.
Birkel:"ARM has all the answers"
The Left's answers all lead to mass graves.
Bruce: your stats are correct, but your optics are myopic. These mass killings have more weight because it impacts whites and innocents more. My estimate is that in political clout, one innocent white murder = 1,000 black gang-banger murders.
These mass killings are a much bigger threat to gun rights than inner-city gang killings.
Achilles: "They want the entire country to be Chicago. "They" = ARM"
Incorrect.
They want the entire country to be East Berlin, circa 1967.
Howard: "Bruce: your stats are correct, but your optics are myopic"
Are you talking about "myoptics"?
Drago: your myoptics are a HUD
“Achillies: Chicago and the other big violent cities are a huge problem that in many ways are a side effect of a combination free society/nanny state/drug war. To fix it, alter the nanny state to encourage education and work, end the drug war and reduce civil rights to catch more criminals... these are all political suicide just like the gun-grabber proposals.”
See my last post. My belief is that the primary driving force for that urban pathology is the welfare state that has, essentially, subsidized fatherless child rearing, and without their fathers in the household growing up, the boys aren’t domesticated, as society needs them to be, and the girls don’t have the self love to keep them from following their mothers into the same life, getting pregnant young, and having their own kids out of wedlock, often from multiple “baby daddies”, perpetuating the cycle. The solution is harsh, but would be effective - just terminate all welfare for children not living with both (genetic or adopted) parents. The ultimate result would be that the females would quit breeding with the few alpha males around not in prison, and instead, insist on the traditional bargain of trading their wombs for support for them and their children. Get the fathers back in the households, with their kids, and most of these inner city problems will very likely disappear in a generation or so.
Bruce: The presence of fathers in the child rearing equation is critically important. No doubt the welfare state has contributed to that. In addition, the whole upper middle class semi-professional white feminumbskull mantra about a fish needing a bicycle is a factor as well. Couple that with mass incarceration for drug crime and the low self esteem and violent resentment from lingering slavery, jim crow, Tuskegee, etc and you have your unbroken chain of factors leading to tragedy.
@Howard - I think that we need to agree to disagree here. I think that it is much more a left/right, instead of black/white issue. I think that the reluctance to cover the inner city carnage, esp in minority communities has more to do with most of the MSM supporting the policies and politicians that essentially caused the problems in the first place. If they seriously looked at the pathologies evident in those communities, that result in the violence, crime, drug use, etc, they would see their own culpability in the problem, so don’t. Not looking too closely at the problem allows them to continue to be sanctimonious progressives, supporting the policies and politicians that caused such. As I said above, I don’t think that we are going to agree here.
The solution is harsh, but would be effective - just terminate all welfare for children not living with both (genetic or adopted) parents.
This is impractical. It would produce way too much misery and deprivation.
I have long advocated giving better benefits to married couples with children however.
As to the legality of the gun purchase, we may find out that the background check system failed again, as it did in Dylann Roof case.
The guy had a beef with his inlaws. Not Antifa, sorry folks.
@Howard - massive incarceration for nonviolent minor drug offenses is a convenient leftwing myth but it is not reality. Not when overtaxed prison systems are giving early release to actual violent offenders. Both the high incarnation rates and drug usage are symptoms, and not the underlying problem, which, again, is the failure to properly socialize young males during their adolescence. As a result, they run as juvenile packs, violently preying on the community, mostly until they end up dead or in prison. Violent crime is a way of life
The reality is that few are locked up in prison any more for pot usage, or, indeed, for drug usage, per se. Rather, it is peddling the drugs, or the other crimes that go along with hard drug usage, that get people sent to prison. What is a bit scary is how casual, and continuous, crime becomes with hard drug users. But what may look like merely a minor drug conviction is often the offense that the DA is willing to bargain down to.
Rabel: If what you say turns out true, are you implying we need a better, tighter, more thorough, more invasive background check system?
“This is impractical. It would produce way too much misery and deprivation.
I have long advocated giving better benefits to married couples with children however.”
I said it tongue in cheek. Your solution is more practical.
I agree to disagree Bruce, however, I share many of your reasons for this problem. I heard an interesting interview on NPR last night where a ultra lefty activist talked about how he has made his do-gooder 501C3 organization more effective by working with Gingrich and others on the right to get shit done. He also mentioned that "you don't want people like me totally in charge, we need the right-wing to keep costs under control and programs focused" He later went on to say that the current environment of my way or the highway on both sides is destructive.
In the recent past, calls for gun control has been political suicide for democrats.
The gun-grabbers always start off strong with generalities but all the traction is lost when they are forced to provide details and specifics. Such is the fate of many weak arguments.
… perhaps some of you self-proclaimed Alpha-Dogs could show a little sympathy for folks like ARM who get upset when innocent people are slaughtered.
As always the implication is that 2nd Amendment supporters are not just wrong but also evil and heartless.
Also, having more untrained armed civilians filling up the public spaces will not prevent mass killings because the vast majority of people don't want the responsibility to carry a weapon in public.
Even when the facts of this particular shooting perfectly illustrates the value of an armed citizenry we see this argument tossed out in the face of reality. Standard gun-grabber boilerplate.
"Rabel: If what you say turns out true, are you implying we need a better, tighter, more thorough, more invasive background check system?"
We simply need one that works as designed. Per the police, he bought the gun from a licensed retailer. A background check was required. His dishonorable discharge made him ineligible to purchase. Yet they sold him the gun. How did that happen?
"Rand Paul is not the Speaker of the House."
No he is not, he's the one with principles.
There's some reporting that the killer received a bad conduct discharge rather than a dishonorable discharge. The BCD may not have been disqualifying.
end the drug war
This alone will reduce handgun violence by a ton. Make it less lucrative to be in the illegal drug trade. Also, you'll have less fentanyl-induced overdoses on your hands, too.
"There's some reporting that the killer received a bad conduct discharge rather than a dishonorable discharge. The BCD may not have been disqualifying."
That's an Armed Forces problem as they are reluctant to give out DDs.
The BCD may not have been disqualifying but it was based on a domestic violence charge and imprisonment which should have been.
Is there a flaw in the system which fails to record military domestic violence?
For those who are actually interested in what might be done to reduce gun deaths and woundings, this is an excellent summary. It points out that mass killings are not going away, even if all the steps for which there is broad public support are enacted.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0
One really interesting finding--more deaths from guns, including suicide, since 1970 than in all American wars going back to the revolution. Also, no public health research on gun deaths and injuries, though there have been 4 million deaths and injuries since 1970. And now the NRA has obtained legislation forbidding such research. Sound like good policy to you (mostly) guys?
Striking to me that Althouse's recent posts on guns haven't spent a second on policy alternatives and that most commenters don't either.
"Striking to me that Althouse's recent posts on guns haven't spent a second on policy alternatives and that most commenters don't either."
You first. ; )
IMHO: thread winner is Mark:
"There comes a time when such people simply go too far for continued social interaction. There comes a time when they have crossed the line, and at that point there is nothing left to say except "anathema," and then you simply ignore them and stop engaging with them.
One way to stop interacting with them, to stop giving them attention and further life to continue their utter obnoxiousness, is to simply stop reading what they say. You see their name and scroll right down to the next comment. Let them rage in the dark alone.
11/6/17, 7:07 AM”
This has pretty much become my habit here. But some people like a good pissing match, so don’t let us stop you. Now and then, I like to stand by and watch, myself.
Stephen: IMO, the left and right focuses too much on guns by proposing heavy restrictions/bans and increased proliferation, respectively.
There has been some discussion of policy.
Bruce brings up a good point that the mass shootings are very small compared to inner city violence and makes suggestions for helping to fix that more pressing problem. The left and the media gets hyped up into gun grab mode over these rare mass shootings while abundant one-off murders that happen all over every day in minority communities are background noise. This is an example of white-liberal inspired public safety racism because most victims of mass killings are middle-class whites. This has parallels in the white liberal environmentalist community that focuses on saving bugs and bunnies and great hiking lands instead of fixing environmental harm to the urban and rural poor.
Rabel brings up the background check issue, which I agree is one reasonable tool that needs to work better.
Another policy discussed was for improving the system for identifying and treating people with mental illness.
In addition, regular training and license requirements was discussed.
OK Stephen, we are all waiting for you to provide policy recommendations that don't trample constitutional rights that are politically viable and actually have a chance to be effective at reducing gun deaths.
I'm all ears
The shooter exited the church and engaged in gunfire with an armed passerby. At that time the FIBS factor (Fuck-I’ve been shot!) came into play and whatever further murder was planned by the shooter ended there.
The local said that although Willeford has no military background, he didn’t hesitate when he came face to face with the suspect — and managed to squeeze off a round that struck the gunman, who had dropped his Ruger AR-15 variant.
The armed citizen was untrained and had no military or law enforcement firearms training. He was just an ordinary armed citizen.
"He was just an ordinary armed citizen."
Dust Bunny Queen would disagree. He was a plumber.
NYT article cites Kelley's domestic violence incident that involved fracturing the skull of his infant stepson.
COLORADO SPRINGS — Before a gunman entered a rural Texas church with a ballistic vest and a military-style rifle, killing at least 26 people on Sunday, he was convicted of assaulting his wife and breaking his infant stepson’s skull.
In 2012, while stationed at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico, Devin P. Kelley, 26, was charged with “assault on his spouse and assault on their child,” according to the Air Force.
Why was he even running around loose???
Even when the facts of this particular shooting perfectly illustrates the value of an armed citizenry we see this argument tossed out in the face of reality. Standard gun-grabber boilerplate.
It really doesn't perfectly illustrate the value of an armed citizenry. This armed citizen intervened after the killing was done. And luckily, his high speed chase did not result in further injury (which was certainly a distinct possibility) to bystanders.
My belief is that the primary driving force for that urban pathology is the welfare state that has, essentially, subsidized fatherless child rearing, and without their fathers in the household growing up, the boys aren’t domesticated, as society needs them to be, and the girls don’t have the self love to keep them from following their mothers into the same life, getting pregnant young, and having their own kids out of wedlock, often from multiple “baby daddies”, perpetuating the cycle. The solution is harsh, but would be effective - just terminate all welfare for children not living with both (genetic or adopted) parents.
Except your belief, even if it wasn't driven by complete ignorance, seems to be based on a welfare system that was eliminated more than twenty years ago.
Blogger Freder Frederson said...
Except your belief, even if it wasn't driven by complete ignorance, seems to be based on a welfare system that was eliminated more than twenty years ago.
Wow, Freder. You must not live anywhere near the dependent classes. Welfare changed forms.
For those who are actually interested in what might be done to reduce gun deaths and woundings, this is an excellent summary. It points out that mass killings are not going away, even if all the steps for which there is broad public support are enacted.
From the article:
"Two of the deadliest mass shootings in modern American history have occurred in the last six weeks."
It really doesn't perfectly illustrate the value of an armed citizenry. This armed citizen intervened after the killing was done.
The killing “was done,” you say? How do you know that? You DO understand that the shooter wore a mask, don’t you? If he was “done” with killing, why the mask? Why does someone who is “done” with killing want to hide his identity?
The answer, readers, is that the shooter was intending to escape without being identified. Eventually of course the police would have figured it out but meanwhile the shooter has evaded capture for a couple of days and has not been identified. His ex-wife would certainly be in danger and anyone the shooter found near her.
Why would the commentor hastily assume the shooter’s killing was “done?” The answer, readers, is the same answer on why you have not seen any of this on the MSM, other than on FOX and Drudge. It doesn’t fit the narrative AND illustrates perfectly the fallacy of the narrative.
What's the longest someone's gotten away with mass (shooting spree) murder (uncaptured)?
"but meanwhile the shooter has evaded capture for a couple of days and has not been identified."
It was reported on FNN tonight that the Air Force dropped the ball by not reporting to the FBI that Kelley had been court-martialed and imprisoned on a felony domestic violence conviction for beating his wife and her infant child [skull fracture]. Therefore the perp was able to pass a background check. :-(
Let's see if the Air Force denies this and asserts that they DID inform the FBI. Then we'll have to determine which is lying.
@HT - Mao and Stalin did pretty well.
What's the longest someone's gotten away with mass (shooting spree) murder (uncaptured)?
A good question. Readers, I have no idea what the “longest” time was but I found this on Wiki after ONE Google:
On April 15, 2013, two homemade bombs detonated 12 seconds and 210 yards (190 m) apart at 2:49 p.m., near the finish line of the annual Boston Marathon, killing three people and injuring several hundred others, including 16 who lost limbs.
On April 18 the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) released images of two suspects, who were later identified as Kyrgyz-American brothers Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and Tamerlan Tsarnaev.
Finding the “longest” would take a journalist several days to research and I avoid that amount of drudgery if possible. But from the example above we know it took the police in Boston more than 5 days.
Maybe that’s why the commentor tries to limit the scope of it to “shooting spree” instead of the more general “mass murder,” as though that might make a difference in the argument about intent.
Real men don't let someone like Devin Kelley break an infant's skull without at least spending the rest of his life in prison, but legislators and judges apparently do.
"Finding the “longest” would take a journalist several days to research and I avoid that amount of drudgery if possible."
In your hypothetical, Kelley would have gotten away for at least a couple of days.
"Maybe that’s why the commentor tries to limit the scope of it to “shooting spree” instead of the more general “mass murder,” as though that might make a difference in the argument about intent. "
Again, it’s your hypothetical.
Hi Howard,
I appreciate the substantive response. My problem with so many of the comments (not yours) was the way that they oversimplify in both directions. I mean sensible gun regulation does not equal Hitler, Stalin or Mao. And taking away guns, as some on the left would do, is not an option given the Heller opinion and the huge political costs of doing so.
I am also frustrated by the NRA and Congress, who won't even allow systematic public health research on a problem that has caused 4 million deaths and injuries since 1970. Do you see any constitutional obstacle to finding out the facts and figuring out what harm reduction strategies work? I don't. And it suggests to me that neither the NRA nor the politicians in its thrall has any serious interest in reducing gun deaths and injuries.
You are certainly entitled to ask me to suggest policies. My intention in posting the Kristof piece was in part to rely on his lists, which include a lot of measures that clearly have very broad public support.
But I'm willing to venture my own tentative list, with the observation that I seriously doubt that any of the effective harm reduction strategies other than outright bans or confiscation would violate the Second Amendment sensibly construed.
Certainly more comprehensive and effective background checks seem desirable and have very broad political support among voters who are polled. The effect of these may be modest, but overall it seems likely to help.
It seems to me that some form of child safety feature also seems very likely to reduce the uncomfortably large number of deaths and injuries caused by or to children.
Making it harder to create automatic weapons, through bump stocks or otherwise, seems sensible.
Programming guns so that they can't be used if stolen sounds like an effective and constitutional step moving forward. If we can do this for iPhones, we can do it for guns.
Many guns used in crimes are stolen; the Second Amendment should not protect the right to use a stolen gun.
Strategies that are focused on adult males at risk for suicide--and getting guns out of their hands--would make sense, and unless the Second Amendment protects the right to suicide, would seem to pass constitutional muster.
And programs that go into inner city communities to conduct targeted social work interventions with youth identified as at risk of shooting or being shot seem to have had good success and to be worth pursuing.
Also, why not end the immunity of gun companies to law suits? If it is completely foreseeable, as it is, that many, many guns will injure people in ways that could be reduced by simple design changes, why shouldn't companies respond in tort for failing to adopt those changes?
Perhaps this isn't the right list. And certainly adopting it won't stop mass shootings, though it may reduce their number and impact. But the contrasting view, that all these deaths and injuries are simply the cost of freedom and that the government shouldn't even study the problem to figure out what strategies work, let alone act on it, strikes me as indefensible.
Thanks for engaging.
HT said...
What's the longest someone's gotten away with mass (shooting spree) murder (uncaptured)?
"but meanwhile the shooter has evaded capture for a couple of days and has not been identified."
11/6/17, 6:13 PM
Eric Rudolph made it five years. Maybe that's good for you, for your political drum-beating and fund-raising?
… it’s your hypothetical.
Straw man alert: Readers, I’m sure that the commentor would like my points to be “hypothetical” but they are not. They are based on real facts surrounding a real event – and are in no way “hypothetical.”
I used the church shooting as an example, not as an “hypothetical.” And I used the Boston bombing as another example of mass murderers delaying their capture because of the lack of immediate identification of the perpetrators. The church shooter wore a mask. You wear a mask during a crime to hide your identity. It seems indisputable to me that not knowing the identity of a criminal would obviously hinder the police in any search for a criminal. If concrete, factual examples coupled with commonsense will not suffice then I suppose nothing would …
"Programming guns so that they can't be used if stolen sounds like an effective and constitutional step moving forward."
Have you ever owned a firearm?
I am also frustrated by the NRA and Congress, who won't even allow systematic public health research …
Such a statement deserves a link. Until a credible link is provided I’m going to consider the whole paragraph as bullshit.
I seriously doubt that any of the effective harm reduction strategies other than outright bans or confiscation would violate the Second Amendment sensibly construed.
I’m always wary of weasel words and euphemistic phrases like “harm reduction strategies” and “sensibly construed.”
It seems to me that some form of child safety feature also seems very likely to reduce the uncomfortably large number of deaths and injuries caused by or to children.
More weasel words: “child safety feature.” Specifics are troublesome to the gun-grabbers.
Programming guns so that they can't be used if stolen sounds like an effective and constitutional step moving forward. If we can do this for iPhones, we can do it for guns.
There’s no constitutional right to an iPhone. We’re mixing apples and oranges here. Making guns so expensive that only the elites can afford them is just another underhanded method of gun-grabbing.
Many guns used in crimes are stolen; the Second Amendment should not protect the right to use a stolen gun.
Unintended I’m sure but this could almost be a parody of a gun-grabber. “ … the right to use a stolen gun …” Wow.
Also, why not end the immunity of gun companies to law suits?
Gun manufacturers are NOT immune to lawsuits. If their product malfunctions they can be sued just like the auto manufacturers or any other manufacturer in America. Where do the gun-grabbers get these false narratives?
We will probably continue to see more sociopathic behaviors due to increased technology and the resultant depersonalization of our culture. People aren't real to each other any more. No conscience. No empathy.
Two of the deadliest mass shootings in modern American history have occurred in the last six weeks.
One mass shooting inspires another mass shooting. Such is the nature of the copycat phenomenon.
Grackle,
I don't see a single argument in your piece except that it's all gun grabbing. That's just rhetoric and not very persuasive rhetoric.
As for the issue of stifling research on effective measures for curbing gun deaths and injuries, here's the story, which is pretty well known. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/oct/05/steve-israel/former-democratic-congressman-compares-gun-violenc/
I don't see a single argument in your piece except that it's all gun grabbing. That's just rhetoric and not very persuasive rhetoric.
As for the issue of stifling research on effective measures for curbing gun deaths and injuries, here's the story, which is pretty well known.
The “story”: A gun-grabbing blue state congressman from New York pens a gun-grabbing op ed in the gun-grabbing New York Times whining about the fact that CDC gun-grabbers can no longer be rewarded by the taxpayers to do some biased gun-grabbing research designed to promote gun-grabbing.
“The 1996 Dickey Amendment states "none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control."
As a taxpayer I’m glad that my money isn’t used to fund government gun-grabbing studies designed to find fault with the 2nd Amendment. Lefty judges do that well enough.
The CDC ( Centers for Disease Control and Prevention ) should be studying diseases – not advocating or promoting gun-grabbing.
O the fake psychology “studies” that could’ve been produced! The researchers could have “proved” that gun owners were insane, just like they “proved” not long ago that conservatives were crazy.
Readers, in general I do not trust “studies” of hot-button issues. The social sciences in particular have a big problem because of bias and political correctness built into their “research.” If the readers so desire they can read about this very real problem here and here.
I want to correct something I posted earlier: “The armed citizen was untrained and had no military or law enforcement firearms training. He was just an ordinary armed citizen.”
It turns out that the church shooter had the bad luck to exchange fire with a NRA instructor! The armed citizen who has also been a NRA instructor lived next door to the church and confronted the shooter after a couple of rounds went through the walls of his house.
The shooter was shot through a chink in his body armor and in the leg. I suppose wearing a mask isn’t very conducive to firearm accuracy. Think of it readers: A representative of the NRA and its training program probably saved some lives. At the very least he prevented the shooter from evading capture.
Here is the reality of the situation. One third of the population of the United States owns at least three firearms. Congress can do nothing except making something already legal, illegal. No matter what congress decides it rests with the gun owners themselves to decide on firearm safety. Which they largely have.
Here is where "Quantity has a quality all its own." comes in. Gun owners decide firearm policy.Not congress. Pass all the laws you want. They won't be obeyed.
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