I told them, [Michael] is not that guy. And they said, maybe you don’t understand your friend. And I said, no, I know the difference between pedophiles and somebody that is not a pedophile because I have been molested. Here’s the names, go investigate. And let me push this forward, there are thousands of people in Hollywood that have the same information. Why is it all on me? Why is it, if I don’t release the names in the next two months, six months or a year, I’m the bad guy. I’m the victim here. I’m the one who has been abused. I’m the one who is trying to come forward and do something about it....Lauer presses him to go to the police now, but "There’s a statute of limitations, Matt, in the state of California," so to go to the police would only expose himself to lawsuits and threats of violence. He's asking for lawyers and security people to step up and help him, and they he will "get this message done.
I vow I will release every name that I have any knowledge of, period. And nobody’s going to stop me this time, as long as people support this.Feldman says "there are thousands of people out there" who know, and that you could look at the "teenage soda pop clubs" where the child actors went back then. He wouldn't name the place(s) — I think he's afraid of liability — but he says you can look back at the teen magazines of the time and find the name.
I wonder what connection, if any, this story has to the Kevin Spacey allegations discussed earlier today, here.
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100 comments:
Oh...but Kevin was drunk and he didn't mean it...(snark)...The left have been trying to legitimize pedophilia for some time now.... Oh...and he is GAY now, so just disregard.
I've come to suspect that most likely MJ was a broken weird wannabe Peter Pan who could be highly inappropriate with children, but not a pedophile molester.
I suspect Michael Jackson may have been molested as a child himself. Maybe that's why the other child stars felt safe with him. I don't think he ever grew up.
Spacey is NOT getting a pass, from what I am seeing.
Oh, and I think the Kevin Spacey story has everything to do with the Corey Feldman Hollywood pedophilia allegations.
Obviously, there is too much money floating around Hollywood. It would be great to tax the hell out of these bastards.
The "open secret" floodgates have opened and there will be blood. Don't forget, Spacey fantasized over having sex w/ a female high school friend of his daughter in American Beauty. Spacey won a Best Actor Oscar!
This is a witch hunt, but in this case there are actual witches.
One problem is going to be distinguishing the real witches from the falsely accused.
A friend of mine, an oncologist in Santa Barbara, used to accompany kids with cancer to Michael Jackson;s estate. He was told that there was to be no disclosure about what happened there, although nothing did on those trips.
Jackson was almost certainly a molester but he was crazy, too.
Does the fact that Corey Feldman wants to produce a documentary ($$$) have anything to do with him not being willing to name names now?
I believe Corey Feldman but I also don't find him to be trustworthy, if that makes any sense.
What I mean is that I don't find it hard at all to believe that the stuff he alleges really happened. This too much circumstantial evidence of it.
But I wish Corey Feldman didn't come across as a washed up child celebrity trying to get back in the limelight while also looking desperate for money. I wish he had allies who seemed more credible, and I suspect the reason he doesn't seek them out is because he wants to find a way to cash in on all of this instead of being singularly devoted to getting the truth out.
On the other hand, I feel sympathy for him too and I do believe that he fears lawsuits and retaliations.
Interesting point on the Statute of Limitations being different in California than in NYC.
Easy to speculate why.
"Ann Althouse said...
Spacey is NOT getting a pass, from what I am seeing."
Sure. They left is all pissed off the attempted kid rape, and not the fact that he tainted gayness. Just like they were so brutal to Roman Polanski. Oh, wait...
If there is a silver lining in this, it is that we won't be inflicted with Hollywood lecturing us on morality and politics. We hope.
I agree with CStanley above. Feldman looks like he might be trying to monetize his trauma. I'm ok with that though. Nothing helps you recover quicker than a few million dollars. I don't mean that in a completely snarky way. It's a way of getting the last laugh and giving you a feeling of triumph over your rapists. I wish Feldman all the best in his efforts. Plus I'm sure he's already causing quite a few sleepless nights in Hollywood.
CStanley more or less has the same feelings as me- I believe Feldman when he talks about his own abuse and that of his friend Haim, but I don't really trust him in other aspects, though I ackknowledge that his squirrely behavior may be caused by the amount of pushback he gets for going public- one cannot watch that recording with Barbara Waters and not cringe at how he was treated there.
Having the last name Spacey is one step from Delirious, and two steps from Lunatic.
If Feldman is serious about exposing all this that he claims to know, I would encourage him to get in touch with Ronan Farrow and start working on a real, publishable story. Like I wrote before, Farrow is in a position because of who he is to get other victims to open up.
cubanbob said...
If there is a silver lining in this, it is that we won't be inflicted with Hollywood lecturing us on morality and politics. We hope.
Don't worry, I'm sure they're feverishly trying to find a justification that will allow them to say this is all the movie-going public's fault!
My husband reminds me of an episode of Family Guy when Stewie runs up wearing a diaper and says, "Help! I just escaped from Kevin Spacey's basement".
I think we all need to pay more attention to what Seth McFarland has to say. He's the one who also made fun of Harvey Weinstein at the Oscars.
"If there is a silver lining in this, it is that we won't be inflicted with Hollywood lecturing us on morality and politics. We hope. "
That is much like the Obama "Hope" and Change. Ain't happnin'. To suppose it will is to suppose a sense of shame, a sense of fairness in politics and introspection from the left.
Like Unicorns.
My goodness, what a cesspit these people have created and live in.
-sw
They don't make movies anymore, or at least movies that are watchable. So this is what passes for entertainment. Better than nothing.
"Spacey is NOT getting a pass." If so, good. An excellent opportunity to explore the hows and whys of gay pedophilia, if it's not just a Catholic thing anymore.
"But I wish Corey Feldman didn't come across as a washed up child celebrity trying to get back in the limelight while also looking desperate for money. I wish he had allies who seemed more credible, and I suspect the reason he doesn't seek them out is because he wants to find a way to cash in on all of this instead of being singularly devoted to getting the truth out."
These kinds of childhood experiences likely disproportionately create damaged adults who are going to be vulnerable to the kinds of things that make people seem less credible, and a bit radioactive. That's very sad if it leads to missed chances.
Spacey is NOT getting a pass, from what I am seeing.
True. He's being slammed in the comments section of Joe My God and related blogs.
Spacey is NOT getting a pass, from what I am seeing.
He's been criticized - mostly for linking the accusations to being gay. Has he been fired? Have people questioned why production of his show is still ongoing? Are activists interviewing his friends and professional contacts asking what they knew and dismissing any denials as not credible?
More relevant note the focus on him specifically whereas activists immediately moved to brand Weinstein as symptomatic of the entire culture even beyond Hollywood.
I'd say there is quite a difference in reaction.
"Spacey is NOT getting a pass." If so, good. An excellent opportunity to explore the hows and whys of gay pedophilia, if it's not just a Catholic thing anymore.
It never was just a Catholic thing, asshole.
Leftwing Hollywood: where we make tons of crappy movies and sexually assault the women and young boys.
Bring back John Ford and John Wayne!
Watching Matt Lauers interview Corey Feldman this AM I was amazed at how aggressive and confrontational Matt was. Then I remembered who signs his paycheck.
Corey Feldman should use the reverse "gay" tactic that Spacey employed. It's similar to the "NRA" tactic employed by fat Harvey.
It would be, something like, "First, of all, I'd like to formally declare that I have been living a lie, and that today I am announcing that I'm gay. Second, as a child actor, I was molested by several adults on various Hollywood projects. Let's talk specific names: John Smith, Bill Jones, Bob Brown, etc, etc.
It (gay pedophilia) is not a "Catholic thing." It's an evil phenomenon that happened in the Catholic Church, and which happens in all segments of societies where boys and adult men interact. The Church hierarchy was in many instances widely and criminally complicit in allowing it to happen and to continue. This caused a crisis of faith in the Church with many Catholics, myself included. I'm still working through it. I love the faith and I'm on board with the theology. But I'm still very, very angry with what may best be termed the "institutional Church" and have not found the spiritual wherewithal in myself to forgive it. I'm trying. I'm working on it. I don't go to mass anymore and I miss it, I miss it a lot. That's a tough thing for me, not going to mass. If the devil does exist -- and I believe he does -- he could have devised no better plan to harm the faith than by infecting the priesthood with gay pedophiles, and by infecting the Church hierarchy with bad men who did nothing eliminating the problem of gay pedophile priests.
That's my spiritual cri de couer for the day.
Remember when the Boy Scouts were crucified about gay scout leaders? What a bunch of prudes!
What about the baaaaacklash?!
Space at al. "for a pass" for decades.
My aunt the nun says the whole thing was fallout from the crisis of vocations - the Church, especially in the US, could not get good recruits anymore. So standards fell and the ranks were packed with homosexuals.
Granted, there have always been plenty of homosexuals and even pedophiles in the Catholic Church. This was a constant source of gossip. And protecting them was nothing new either. Rodrigo Duterte says he was felt up by an American priest (a Jesuit, Fr. Paul Falvey, S.J.) in 1960, and I believe him. The priest was transferred back to the US apparently after he was sued by some other boys, who obtained a considerable settlement - and this was in the 1960's.
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/744824/duterte-names-priest-who-allegedly-molested-him-as-teen
And as for women, well, this was even more typical. It was common, even expected, for priests in the provinces to have mistresses.
Roughcoat,
I hope you come back to the mass. The priest is just a man and no matter what his faults and sins or the faults and sins of the hierarchy, Christ is still present in the sacraments. Please don't cut yourself off from God because of the sins of men.
he was felt up by an American priest (a Jesuit, Fr. Paul Falvey, S.J.) in 1960, and I believe him. The priest was transferred back to the US apparently after he was sued by some other boys, who obtained a considerable settlement - and this was in the 1960's.
Sure, in 1960s there were plenty of gay priests. But there were also, e.g., tough-guy Jesuit types (I mean old-line Jesuits, before the order went rad-left). There were plenty of gay ministers in the Prot denominations too. The Methodists had more than their share of what were then called "fairies." The big problem with the Church, as you said, was/is the seminaries. They got taken over by gay cabals. I mean, they were TAKEN OVER. The people running the seminaries were open about it. They made it very difficult, virtually impossible, for straight men to become priests.
"The left have been trying to legitimize pedophilia for some time now...."
Only in your fever dreams.
Watching Matt Lauers interview Corey Feldman this AM I was amazed at how aggressive and confrontational Matt was.
When that whole Weinstein story broke, I watched some old footage of interviews with Feldman. Everyone of them were confrontational. Many of them brought up the fact that his parents cheated him out of the money he earned and he had to sue them to get it back. I think he's telling the truth.
"An excellent opportunity to explore the hows and whys of gay pedophilia...."
What about the hows and whys of heterosexual pedophilia? Pedophilia is its own disorder, and is not unique to homosexuals.
Falvey entered the priesthood and the Jesuit order sometime in the 1930's or 40's I think - it seems he was in the Philippines because he was one of those who was forced to leave China in 1949.
Whether the Jesuits were taken over by then I don't know - I doubt it. But my point, I guess, is that the scenario certainly wasn't unknown even in those days.
Sydney:
Thanks for your note. I'll be back, eventually. I certainly haven't cut myself off from God. My beef is with the earthly Church. Doesn't help that my parish church veered political left and became seemingly more concerned with social justice issues than with matters of faith and the spirit. As well, I was terribly disappointed in the American Church's reaction to 9/11. I had several disputatious conversation on this issue with my parish priest. At the same time, my father was dying a long, slow, miserable death from Alzheimers, which alone would have been enough to provoke a crisis in faith. Then the scandals broke. Triple whammy. I quit going maybe after one too many solicitations by the Chicago archdiocese to increase our Sunday offerings so as to pay off all the priest-abuse lawsuits.
This will be my year to return to the Church. I'm looking for a more orthodox parish. Maybe St. John Cantius in Chicago, does mass in Latin. We'll see.
"The left have been trying to legitimize pedophilia for some time now...."
This is true - It was something of an international movement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_of_consent_laws
The critical character here is Michel Foucault, a heavy hitter of the New Left and perhaps the single biggest influence on modern intellectual politics.
Foucaults wiki states -
"In 2007, Foucault was listed as the most cited scholar in the humanities"
And of course the famous case of Daniel Cohn-Bendit
And etc, this was quite a thing especially in European left-intellectual circles.
Wait'll you find out about the contract signing parties!
Buwaya, I believe the UK lowered the age of consent [for males, anyway] to 16. The pederasts wanted to be legal.
"Pedophilia is its own disorder, and is not unique to homosexuals."
True to a degree - Cohn-Bendit was, it seems, at the very least edging on being a heterosexual pedophile and an open advocate for it. But the numbers seem to be disproportionately the other way.
Buwaya --
I conducted extensive interviews with Lt. Ben Morin, B Co., 192nd Tank Bn., from Maywood, IL; latter to become a Jesuit priest and instructor at Chicago's Loyola University. He was one of those old-line tough-guy Jesuits I mentioned.
The 192nd Tank Bn. was a National Guard unit that recruited in Chicago's western and southwestern suburbs where I live. His unit was nationalized in 1940 and sent to the Philippines in autumn 1941 as part of the buildup for war. He was sitting on top of the turret of the tank he commanded, which was parked the edge of Clark Field's runway when the first wave of Japanese bombers appeared overhead at c. noon on December 8. He stood on the back of his M3 Stuart and shot down a Zero with his .30 caliber AA machine gun mounted on the turret. The Zero flashed by just yards from his tank and only a few feet off the ground and he nailed it with a good long leading burst.
He watched as B-17s and P-40s lined up neatly on the runway were literally blasted to bits along with the hangars and mess hall on the other side of the field. He dueled repeatedly with strafing Japanese fighters that remained in the area after the medium bombers left. A P-40 crash-landed in front of his tank and he ran to it to render assistance to the pilot. But the pilot was mortally wounded, and died in front of him. He was just a kid (as was Ben, actually) and Ben was distressed by his inability to ease the boy's suffering. A devout Catholic, he told me he wished he could have administered last rites to the stricken pilot. The seed was planted, as it were.
He took part, with his tank battalion, in an endless series of rear-guard actions to cover the retreat of North Luzon Force into Bataan, which started at the Lingayen Gulf beaches where the Japanese main force under Homma landed. His tank platoon engaged several sharp encounters with Japanese tanks, the first tank battles fought by the U.S. Army in World War II. In one of those battles his tank was knocked out and he was taken prisoner, thus beginning a 3-year Calvary of suffering as captive of the exceedingly cruel Japanese.
He entered the priesthood soon after his return to the States after Japan's surrender. I would interview him in his spare little room at the Jesuit "barracks" on the Loyola University Campus in Chicago. It was an honor and privilege to be his friend, and to become a friend to other members of Company B, whom I also interviewed at length. Ben passed away about three years ago. He was a great guy, tough as nails, soft-spoken, and absolutely devout. He blessed a rosary I still have and use. I never asked him about the pedophile scandals but I did ask him about his feelings toward the Japanese. He told me in a quiet but firm voice that he still had trouble forgiving them and that he prayed often to overcome his anger toward them.
Does the Church still make priests like him?
"Pedophilia is its own disorder, and is not unique to homosexuals."
Man-boy pedophilia is ipso facto unique to homosexuals. If you're a man and you engage in sex with a boy, you're a homosexual -- and a pedophile. A gay pedophile.
In this discussion of pedophilia, I think it's important to be a little more precise.
What is pedophilia? If some guy is attracted to a 15 year old girl... is that pedophilia? What about a guy attracted to a 15 year old boy?
I would suggest that girls who are sexually mature (i.e. they are physically capable of having children, and most girls over 12 certainly are)--these girls likely do attract most men. Biologically speaking, they should attract males, right? After all, if you are going to die by 30, you should get your children as early as possible. Thus, middle ages marrying ages was very young.
There's a difference between being attracted to a legally too young but sexually mature person, and a six year old.
I'm just saying that when I was 20 and I saw this smoking hot 17 year old chick... I wasn't a pedophile. But if I'd have said the same thing about a 9 year old, that would be pedophilia.
Of course the left loves pedophilia, though-- remember NAMBLA? Purely and totally a leftist thing.
--Vance
Vance --
You and I aren't lawyers, which means we don't have to parse our words or our thoughts.
If a man fondles an underage boy's genitals and/or butt-fucks him, he's a pedophile.
If you're 20 years old and you're sexually attracted to a smoking hot 17 year old chick, you're not a pedophile, you're a normal man.
If you're 20 years old and you're sexually attracted to a 9 year old boy, you're not pedophile unless and until you act on your urges. You are, however, a pervert.
Questions? Buehler?
"Does the Church still make priests like him?"
Yes, always a few. But never, I think, more than a few.
"he still had trouble forgiving them and that he prayed often to overcome his anger toward them."
My grandmother had the same hate, and no end of reasons to have it. They hurt her family and friends terribly. She did finally overcome it, and forgave them, not long before she passed away.
"Man-boy pedophilia is ipso facto unique to homosexuals. If you're a man and you engage in sex with a boy, you're a homosexual -- and a pedophile. A gay pedophile."
Of course. This is a tautology. It is also not the point.
I also want to point out the utter depravity of many of these homosexual predators, and how accepted they appear to be.
Prominent sci-fi author Marion Zimmer Bradley (she wrote the "Mists of Avalon" Authurian saga) had a daughter, Moira Greyland I think her name is.
Moira's dad and Marion Zimmer Bradley's husband (Walter Breen) was a rapist/homosexual pedophile. Moira says she preferred his company over her mother, Marion Bradley, because her dad would only rape her while her mother, a confirmed lesbian, did far worse. Apparently this was during testimony sending her dad to jail for his repeated raping of numerous boys. Her story is here. This is the kind of thing that likely happened to Corey Feldman, and that Kevin Spacey was heavily involved with.
I strongly encourage reading Moira's article I linked. It's a sickening, but very eye opening look into the serial gay molester's world.
--Vance
"Of course the left loves pedophilia, though-- remember NAMBLA? Purely and totally a leftist thing.
--Vance"
And you know this...how?
NAMBLA is a negligible organization with no influence at all in this country. "The left," such as it exists in America, is not rooting for NAMBLA.
My grandmother had the same hate, and no end of reasons to have it. They hurt her family and friends terribly. She did finally overcome it, and forgave them, not long before she passed away.
I don't know if Ben forgave them before he passed. He was rigorously honest with himself and he could not pretend to feel what he didn't. He could not and would not bullshit himself and God. But, whatever accommodations he made or did not make in that regard, I know God understands and has given him a pass on the whole thing.
Robert, how do I know NAMBLA is a leftist thing? Because they were happily welcomed for a very long time on the left and the LGBT groups. At least until the 1980's, when some of the LGBT groups realized that promoting the rape of boys wasn't a great image builder.
But their goals: to break down the nuclear family; to repeal the age of consent laws, etc-- are all leftist goals.
And more importantly: If they aren't on the left, where are they? The party that pushes a "Christian theocracy" as you leftists accuse Republicans of daily--they are the party of NAMBLA? Please.
Nope. Under the "All Republicans are racists because of David Duke's party affiliation" standard, one can easily conclude that all leftists are pedophiles because NAMBLA associates with them.
--Vance
And thanks for the anecdote.
I have been looking for more complete information/testimony about the record of the provisional tank battalions in the Philippines, for my own purposes, as well as testimony about the attack on Clark field. Granted there is actually a great deal of material about Clark, specific and incidental.
The best I have seen, but more of a rant really, was Colonel Millers (co of the 194th) "Bataan Uncensored" - there are various journal articles, etc., but if you know of better sources i would appreciate them.
What makes you think NAMBLA must reflect any particular political bent? Not everything in life is connected to someone's political leanings, and many people don't have any well-formed political consciousness at all.
"But their goals: to break down the nuclear family; to repeal the age of consent laws, etc-- are all leftist goals."
Uh, no.
""An excellent opportunity to explore the hows and whys of gay pedophilia, if it's not just a Catholic thing anymore."
It never was just a Catholic thing, asshole."
Hey, Roughcoat, I was being sarcastic. Didn't think I had to spell it out for discerning commentators.
"Uh, no."
But yes. The breakdown of the nuclear family is is the whole point of the prevailing US ideology of the intellectual class. This is the program advocated for by, it seems,every womens studies department in every US university.
A close reading of pretty much every common womens studies text, apparently,
Stacey McCain, "Sex Trouble"
And this is not new. Its been an element of every left wing movement at some point in its existence.
Cook, stop and think a bit. Which political side argues for the promotion of sexual pleasure and tearing down all walls that would say "no"? How about the incessant ranting from the left about "Conservative Christians wanting to control women!" Who wants to legalize prostitution? Who always wants to promote abortion as a solution to women being sluts and getting pregnant? Who always cries out "Prude!" when someone says fornication or adultery is wrong?
It's your side, Cook. Your side is all about the "sexual revolution." Of destroying "archaic, old fashioned, stodgy morality!" Who pushed for no fault divorce; for the right of Democrat politicians to molest young women as long as they pushed for abortion too?
Who pushes for acceptance of deviant sexual practices--homosexuality, polygamy, transgenderism? Your side.
Who would be more likely to legalize man/boy sex--Mike Pence or Barack Obama? No one on earth would choose Mike Pence as the answer to that question.
You leftists, btw, do have as the goal the destruction of the family. Why else do you push government as the provider and "you don't need a man!" that the feminists (leftists all) have been arguing for decades? What is the Democrat message to the blacks in the ghetto? Sleep around, have a few baby mamas and don't worry, welfare will take care of everything! And once you have Uncle Sam as your children's father, you better not vote Republican or Uncle Sam might not pay for your brand new TV.....
--Vance
Buwaya --
I have many hours of recorded interviews with vets of the Provisional Tank Battalions (192nd and 194th Tank Bns). The 192nd, as you probably know, was a Midwestern outfit; the 194th, West Coast. I interviewed them, on and off, over the course of several years in the 1990s and early 2000s. My intent in doing so was to write a book about them, but I never got around to it, for two reasons: my father, as I mentioned in a post above, was stricken with Alzheimers and as a result I lost the will to write for the better part of 7 years. A devastating time.
But, also: I had recently published a book on the Holocaust and, quite frankly, I'd had enough of writing about people being held captive and tortured and murdered by their captors. And I soon discovered that the Bataan veterans' prisoner-of-war experience, i.e. being held in lengthy captivity by the Japanese, would have dominated my narrative. The Battle for the Philipines lasted 6 months; captivity, 3 years.
Subsequently Iris Chang got in touch with me through a mutual acquaintance to inform me that she was interested in writing a book on the Provisional Tank Group. She asked for my help, and I readily assented. I sent her my tapes and consulted with her. We a couple of long and very moving conversations about the trauma-by-proxy we had both experienced when researching and writing about genocide and its victims. She talked about how writing "The Rape of Nanking" had sometimes plunged her into deep depressions, and I mentioned that I had experienced a similar phenomenon while working on the Holocaust book. Then, one day, I woke up to find out she had committed suicide.
That did it for me, and I shelved my tapes.
I have, however, recently been thinking of restarting the project, but writing about the subject in a way that will not deal with the prisoner-of-war experience, at least not to the near-exclusion of everything else.
I have Miller's account. Miller was what you would call a "problematic character."
Let me think about his. We can work something out. I'm not ready to part with my recordings, if only because I need to curate and digitize them before the tapes decay. Then I need to transcribe them, a HUGE and time-consuming task. But I can share some very good and extensive information right away. Perhaps we can do this via Ann Althouse's good offices. I've done this with Richard Fernandez and Belmont Club ("Wretchard"), he've been very helpful in this regard, serving as a sort of middle man for transferring information between Belmont Club regulars while still preserving our anonymity.
I'll have to ask you to understand my need to at least make the effort to preserve my anonymity; it's necessary for professoinal reasons. Ann knows who I am, however, so I would not have a problem going through her (provided she doesn't have a problem with this, of course).
Let me know what you think.
I'm kind of tired of Corey's "I saw something nasty in the woodshed!" Ada Doom routine.
I know, I know, it's more "something nasty happened to me in the woodshed" but who, what and where? Put up or shut up.
Also, why isn't this Dan Schneider guy front page news all over the internet. His history sounds a lot more "interesting" than Kevin Spacey.
https://www.redstate.com/kiradavis/2017/10/24/next-big-hollywood-sex-scandal-already-breaking...at-nickelodeon/
Vance,
I could see the spittle flying from your lips as you typed your rant...which was enlightening, as it reveals you are possessed by phantoms of your own imagination, phantoms I cannot hope to disperse.
Sebastian:
I apologize for what I said. I was out of line, and wrong. I did not recognize what you wrote as satire. My bad. This is a real hot-button issue for me, and I get plenty worked up about it. But that's no excuse.
Can we shake hands and let me buy you a beer?
"and, quite frankly, I'd had enough of writing about people being held captive and tortured and murdered by their captors"
To be fair, there are dozens upon dozens of captivity narratives by US survivors of Japanese prison camps. Its a genre in itself. This is significant to those who suffered, but at this point there is a superfluity. And both my uncles who served in the campaign died in these camps, one at O'Donnell and the other at Cabanatuan, so I'm not uninterested, but after 40+ years of these things...
What really is lacking is a detailed military history of the campaign itself. There are huge holes, unknowns, in every aspect of it. Its never been put together out of what fragments are left. And, among other things, there is no proper history of the Provisional Tank Group (192nd and 194th).
Thanks for the info about Iris Chang. I admire her book. Poor woman. I find it a bit odd that she was interested in the US Tanks of all things, but who knows, it is a little-known thing after all.
Good to see that you have no rebuttal then to either Buwaya or I. And believe it or not, if Chuck was to enter this thread, he would agree with me on this.
Did you read about how Moira Greyland was treated by leftist gay pedophiles? Yet you are here defending them (as a group).
--Vance
An example of unknowns -
Never to be known probably -
What happened to the 12th and 13th Regiments of the Philippine 11th Division, under Colonels Moses and Noble? They were routed near San Fernando Dec. 21 1941 (I drove through that very spot a few months ago; the ground yields no clues). How?
The sources are extremely vague. Moses and Noble seem to have been the only surviving officers who could have filled in the blanks, but as it happens both escaped from Bataan, returned to the far north, recruiting ground of their regiments, and were both chased down and killed by the Japs.
And on and on.
Roughcoat said...
Sebastian:
I apologize for what I said. I was out of line, and wrong. I did not recognize what you wrote as satire. My bad. This is a real hot-button issue for me, and I get plenty worked up about it. But that's no excuse.
Dear Roughcoat,
Not wishing to pile on the troubles of your Church - but perhaps you can understand my reaction when you talk about "the Jews" in a way you may not realize is very like that.
What really is lacking is a detailed military history of the campaign itself. There are huge holes, unknowns, in every aspect of it. Its never been put together out of what fragments are left. And, among other things, there is no proper history of the Provisional Tank Group (192nd and 194th).
You're right about there being no proper history's of the PTG. I was going to write it, but . . .
I have a friend, a gifted amateur historian, who has assembled a treasure of info about the PTG. I'll send the contact info to you shortly.
I was recently contacted by an author, via the friend mentioned above, who told me he is undertaking to write that book. He asked if I would make my interviews available to him. I haven't decided whether to do so or not.
There are, actually, some good operational-level histories of the Bataan campaign. Start with the granddaddy of them all, it's still pretty good, the U.S. Army's official history (one of the so-called Green Books): Louis Morton's "Fall of the Philippines." It's in the public domain, you can access it here:
https://history.army.mil/html/books/005/5-2-1/CMH_Pub_5-2-1.pdf
Or here:
https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/5-2/5-2_Contents.htm
Or here:
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-PI/index.html
Other good treatments are:
The Battle of Bataan: A Complete History (Donald Young)
Undefeated: America's Heroic Fight for Bataan and Corregidor (Bill Sloan)
Bataan: Our Last Ditch : The Bataan Campaign, 1942 (John Whitman
There are others. I'll assemble a list for you.
What I find lacking are tactical-level accounts of the fighting on Bataan. There are bits and pieces of such accounts in personal memoirs; see, e.g., Allison Ind's "Bataan: The Judgement Seat."
But I haven't found a full-length book using John Keegan's approach in "The Face of Battle." In particular, I haven't found any descriptions of tactical level fighting by the rear-guards covering the strategic withdrawals by North Luzon Force and South Luzon Force. I am obsessed with rear-guard actions and sieges, and would like to get my hands on accounts of such actions on Bataan.
In the past few years I've also become somewhat obsessed with the defense of the Malay Barrier, the fall of the Dutch East Indies and, especially, the Battle of the Java Sea. But that's a whole 'nuther subject.
I love this blog. You can start a thread with gay pedophilia in Hollywood and end in tanks in the Phillipines in the Second World War.
Bad Lieutenant:
I thought I dealt with that issue in my post -- I know the one you're referring to.
Let me repeat: I wrote a critically acclaimed, awarding-winning book on the Holocaust and have delivered lectures about the book on numerous occasions to numerous Jewish groups. The book was, in effect, a paean to Jewish toughness and the will to survive. Read my post again, and if you still have problems with what I said, please get in touch with me and tell me specifically (with quoted passages) what it is about what I wrote that you object to.
What happened to the 12th and 13th Regiments of the Philippine 11th Division, under Colonels Moses and Noble? They were routed near San Fernando Dec. 21 1941 (I drove through that very spot a few months ago; the ground yields no clues). How?
I don't have the answer to that question. Maybe it's in one of the books on the list I'll assemble. I know Brougher was the GOC. Wasn't it destroyed in the retreat?
Buwaya:
As for Iris Chang: She was a wonderful person, a force of nature, extremely intelligent and personable. At the end of her life she had a complete nervous breakdown, a psychotic break. She was in a hotel in Kentucky, preparing to interview veterans of the C Company, 192nd Tank Bn, when, according to accounts, she started hearing voices and became convinced that the CIA had bugged her room. My memory on what followed is hazy, but I think she went home and got help. But it didn't work out for her. One morning she pulled over to the side of a highway near her home in northern California and shot herself in the head.
The incident in Kentucky was not the first such; but it was, evidently, the worst. I spoke to her, over the phone, shortly before it happened. I had no idea she was in such a state or that she had been experiencing problems. I have since learned that she might have been dealing with severe post-partum depression, and that this may have been a factor in her psychotic break and suicide. But I don't know.
A tragic loss. She was a good person and a fine writer. Rest in peace, Iris.
Thanks !
I have all these. Mortons is still the best general history, but as above, there are lots of holes.
I can add another that uses Filipino sources in addition, such as they are -
Marconi Dioso "Th Times When Men Must Die" - Available on Kindle
There is also a free Google Books preview version.
It is an abbreviated history of the whole campaign, but Dioso wrote it as a supplement of sorts to Morton.
It is very short and not all that well written, but does fill in a few "blanks".
" I haven't found any descriptions of tactical level fighting by the rear-guards covering the strategic withdrawals by North Luzon Force"
Indeed. There is very little of this available. A lot of the problem I think is that for some of the units engaged there were few survivors in a position to testify. Combat branch soldiers on Bataan were in poor condition anyway, and died in huge numbers. In the Philippine Army and Constabulary, of the 80,000 men or thereabouts that were mobilized on Luzon as of December 1941, only about 30,000 were alive by August 1942, and that only because many had been cut off or had deserted. And a disproportionate number of the dead were officers.
And as for the Philippine Scouts, I don't think a quarter of them survived the war.
Buwaya @ 5:47 pm
And thank you for the tip on Dioso. I've heard of it but haven't read it. Will certainly do so.
I figured you had those other books, but I thought I should list them just them same, just in case . . .
Re "There is very little of this available," etc.: very true, and for the reasons you state. Especially re the fate of the Philippine Scouts. The Japanese, as you know, had a special (and extreme) animus toward them. So much for Bushido and Japanese honor.
The Philippine Scouts are very interesting. They remind me of the Fremen in Dune. The PS was an elite fighting force, among the world's best. The Japanese knew this and were, typically, at pains to punish Scouts for their soldierly excellence. And by "punish," I mean torture and murder.
"I know Brougher was the GOC. Wasn't it destroyed in the retreat?"
No, it straggled back, some of it was part of that rearguard you were asking about. Volkmann was temporary co of the 13th Regiment and had something to say about that - you will find something in these -
"American Guerrilla: The Forgotten Heroics of Russell W. Volckmann" - Mike Guardia
"We Remained" - Russell Volckmann
Most of the 11th made it into Bataan with parts of all three infantry regiments, such as they were, and was made part of I Corps.
Unmobilized and cut-off parts of it were assembled in its recruiting areas later, and fought on under Colonel Nakar, Roque Ablan, Governor of Ilocos Norte, and several others, including eventually Moses, Noble, and Volkmann when they got back up there after escaping from Bataan. This all is quite a story. Much of it is in the various guerrilla memoirs, but a more complete account, is in Norling, "The Intrepid Guerillas of North Luzon" (and that's another missing book, a complete history of the guerrilla wars ).
Buwaya --
Are you as intrigued by the movie "Bataan" as I am? There's something mysterious about that movie, the way it was staged and filmed . . . very modern, or post-modern even, and I'm not really sure what I mean by that. It's like a stage play AND a horror movie. And there's the multi-racial cast, with a black guy and a Latino (played by Ricky Ricardo!). The great Robert Walker. Robert Taylor and George Murphy. The scene with the bushes in the mist, so spooky. It's so obviously filmed on an indoors movie set and yet the artificiality enhances the . . . weirdness of it. What do you think?
Oh, Roughcoat! Thanks for reminding be about Bataan. Haven't seen it in many years and will plan to order it through Netflix.
Buwaya @ 6:15:
Wow, thanks for this. Looks like I gots me some readin' to do. Will try, especially, to find "Intrepid Guerillas."
"so to go to the police would only expose himself to lawsuits and threats of violence."
How, exactly, does releasing names himself not do that, if that's the concern?
I mean, if they were gonna sue him for libel, claiming it's a lie, releasing a list himself surely can't stop it; it'd be every bit as much a lawsuit threat, yes?
Likewise if someone is notionally going to threaten him, it doesn't seem less probable if the police aren't already involved?
(The "can't possibly get a conviction because limitations" thing, that makes sense!)
The Japanese were especially keen to kill off the officers. Or intermittently anyway.
One case on Bataan was when the column of surrendered soldiers of the Philippine 91st and 51st Divisions was intercepted by elements of the Japanese 65th Brigade. General Nara had all their officers and NCO's executed, with three survivors.
Japanese atrocities were constant, but not implemented with any plan or order.
"Are you as intrigued by the movie "Bataan" as I am?"
I'm pretty sure that its been fifty years since I've seen it.
I can't say I've been intrigued, but I guess I'm now intrigued.
Got to see it again.
I know that the sandbagged machine-gun nest out of the movie has become ingrained in the Bataan iconography. That has been the picture of Bataan in schoolbooks, murals, sculpture, etc., the guys in tin hats manning the machine-gun. That is, when they aren't dying in the Death March.
Japanese atrocities were constant, but not implemented with any plan or order.
Yes, the Japanese committed mass murder on a regular basis, against surrendered enemy soldiers and defenseless civilians, everywhere they went not because it was policy but, EVEN WORSE, because they liked to commit mass murder (and torture too!). It was the Japanese way. I think it was Matsui (GOG of the Japanese army that raped Nanjing) who admitted to a foreign correspondent, "We are the most poorly disciplined army in the world." What an understatement that was. After the war, Allied war crimes commissions correctly ruled that responsibility for mass murders committed by troops rests with their commanders. Accordingly, Matsui, and Homma, and Yamashita, and Tojo, were executed. Matsui averred that he was "ashamed" by the behavior of his troops. He richly deserved his fate, and so did the others.
"Intrepid Guerrillas" also includes the only good account of the activities and fate of Praeger's Troop H, 26th Cavalry, the "lost troop", the last formed US military unit in the islands after the surrenders.
"Intrepid Guerillas of North Luzon," FREE download:
https://muse.jhu.edu/book/12313
Spacey is NOT getting a pass, from what I am seeing.
He's giving it the old college try by his "impassioned tweet" coming out as a gay man (as if everybody who cared didn't already know). The LGBT people I know are furious with him, since it chips away at decades of work dissociating homosexuality from pedophilia. On the other hand, today's lede:
Reuters: "Actor Kevin Spacey Declares He Lives Life as a Gay Man"
ABC News: "'I Choose To Live as a Gay Man': Kevin Space Comes Out in Emotional Tweet"
So the "Look, a squirrel!" strategy just may just work.
"Good to see that you have no rebuttal then to either Buwaya or I. And believe it or not, if Chuck was to enter this thread, he would agree with me on this.
Did you read about how Moira Greyland was treated by leftist gay pedophiles? Yet you are here defending them (as a group).
--Vance"
See why I can't engage with you? You make up shit...whether lies or fantasies, I don't know. I have not defended pedophiles, either gay or straight, individually or as a group. If that's what you see in my remarks, there's no point in responding to you. Either you really think that's what I have said--proving my point that you are possessed by phantoms of your own imagination, causing you to misunderstand the world around you--or you know better and purposely misrepresent what I have said as a rhetorical cheat.
"Intrepid Guerillas of North Luzon," FREE download:"
Its just samples FYI -
Ah, nertz.
"Can we shake hands and let me buy you a beer?"
Roughcoat: thanks.
"My aunt the nun says the whole thing was fallout from the crisis of vocations - the Church, especially in the US, could not get good recruits anymore. So standards fell and the ranks were packed with homosexuals. "
They can't reproduce, so they have to recruit.
Tangents swingin' wide on this thread..
But hey, nothing from Farmer or Titus.
Both of these are patterns..
By the way, if Feldman had his wealth stolen by his folks, what does he live on? Is he a sandwich artist? Oh..that probably means something else in Hollywood..NoHo.
I told J-Farm that the gay pedophile thing was the real scandal. He really didn't like that. Robert, you get me the membership list of NAMBLA and I'll eat a live frog for every real conservative you find there.
Fact is the gay and straight worlds probably do not mix except at the edges eg BDSM, which acts, believe it or not, can involve no actual sex.
Straight swingers like the (IIRC) Plato's Retreat scene people were very careful to exclude homosexuals precisely for the risk of disease as well as the disruption to the social dynamic.
The gay world comes from millennia of persecution and exploitation, for eternal reasons. Some cultures historically have been more or less tolerant of divergent sexualities, but we are pretty extreme on that these days. Nonetheless, this change is recent, rapid, and may not be well sustainable if the mask is off.
It may seem paranoid to leave all these threads into a tapestry but in fact that's what it all is, a pattern of events. I wish that someone would we use a future where conquer fear is that are limitations going to space make this Earth the most that can be. That certainly isn't going to happen while we are tied down like this.
""Man-boy pedophilia is ipso facto unique to homosexuals. If you're a man and you engage in sex with a boy, you're a homosexual -- and a pedophile. A gay pedophile."
Of course. This is a tautology. It is also not the point."
You're being willfully disingenuous, Bob. I don't doubt that you personally are repulsed by pedophilia and, naturally, object to having it linked to your ideology. But it's nonsensical to blindly deny that the attempt to blur the distinction between consenting adult homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia, consenting or not, isn't coming from people of a Leftist bent. You'd have to be a complete hermit to think otherwise.
Roughcoat, without going back to it, it's very probable that you didn't say anything that did not have some grain of truth to it, or that was intentionally nasty.
The thing is, it all seems like a charge nonetheless, and how does one respond? I am very tired of being blamed for things that I didn't do and am opposed to. Yet who am I to say, "I'm not like them?"
I'd read your book if I could get it somewhere.
I'll have to stick up for Cookie on this issue. While the political Left has been more tolerant of aberrant sexual behaviors in general, the actual propensity for pederasty/homosexual pedophilia has no political affiliation.
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