August 17, 2017

"The removal of City-owned monuments to confederate soldiers in Forest Hill Cemetery has minimal or no disruption to the cemetery itself."

"There is no disrespect to the dead with the removal of the plaque and stone," said a written statement from Madison Mayor Paul Soglin, after the removal of the memorial. My post on the subject is here, where there's been a discussion under way for a couple hours. In that time, I walked over to Forest Hill and found the Confederate’s Rest section:

P1150066

P1150068

P1150069

I had hoped that perhaps the plaque was not yet gone, because I wanted to read the text. But here's a photograph from William Cronon that shows how it looked. The text is mostly readable. The soldiers (who died as prisoners of war) are called "valiant." We're told they surrendered "after weeks of fighting under extremely difficult conditions" and that they arrived in the prison camp here in Madison "suffering from wounds, malnutrition and various diseases."
Within a few weeks 140 graves were filled, the last resting place for these unsung heroes, far from their homes in Alabama, Tennessee, Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas.
It's a neutral, informative account except for that word "heroes." They were called "unsung heroes," but to say "unsung heroes" is to sing — however slightly — of their heroism. "Unsung" was thus untrue, and that little bit of singing of heroism was enough to incite the passion for cutting down monuments. Don't call them heroes just because they fought hard and suffered and died!

Who are heroes? "If somebody’s a prisoner, I consider them a war hero." That's what Donald Trump said after he said "He’s not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”

My dictionary, the OED, says "A man (or occasionally a woman) distinguished by the performance of courageous or noble actions, esp. in battle; a brave or illustrious warrior, soldier, etc." It doesn't say the man had to fight on your side, but who puts up monuments using the word "heroes" for the courageous fighters on the other side? We know the answer: Our city. We had whatever reason we had to express kind thoughts toward the men who suffered and died in our prison camp. But our city's thoughts are harsher today. To paraphrase Trump: I like people who weren't fighting for slavery. 

Here's an article from last May about veterans honoring the different sites, including Union Rest and Confederate Rest:
“You want to honor the soldiers. It doesn’t matter what side they were on,” said Carol Gannon-Hembel, who accompanied her husband, Alan Hembel, to the ceremony....

At the Confederate Rest service, Alan Zeuner and Dan Bradford, dressed in Confederate regalia, lamented the removal of the flag pole holder in front of the Confederate Rest grave site. Bradford called it a “slap in the face” to Confederate veterans who were repatriated after the war.

“It’s a part of history that is largely ignored,” Bradford said, regarding the role of Confederate soldiers in 19th-century Wisconsin history. “I want to see to it that people see it for what it really is, rather than outright lies.”

Bradford, a member of the 61st Georgia Infantry, has both Union and Confederate ancestors. He said he is a descendant of Union Army General James Shields, who is known for challenging Abraham Lincoln to a duel, prior to his presidency.

“These are just interesting little points of history,” Bradford said....

441 comments:

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Unknown said...

Meanwhile, the leftists are eagerly pressing nonviolent solutions like the Missouri Democrat lawmaker who today called for the Assignation of Trump and the far left site that ARM favors, Vice, demanding that Mount Rushmore be blown up.

Yessir, all these peaceful leftists out there. Good thing they are on the same side of history as Pol Pot--that's how we know that only "white nationalists and Nazis" are the problem in America as TTR says.


--Vance

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Sure. During the war. Not out of vengeance, but because he wanted it to end as quickly as possible. From the great Second Inaugural speech:

Lincoln was a much better politician than you are. Who knows what he really felt? He was probably a nice guy who saw nothing to be gained by excess cruelty. But all historians are agreed that the disastrous presidency of Johnson and the lackluster presidency of Grant were noteworthy for how much more leniency they granted the South than the radical Republicans who were truer to Lincoln's vision felt, and likely are the reason that we had to deal with another hundred years of white supremacist laws and terrorism, and a hundred more still of poor race relations. Quote as much as you want; you obviously know nothing of the history of reconstruction, though. That's how we got into the mess we're in. Excessive leniency to the South's old leaders' very successful attempts to roll back every civil and political victory gained for Southern blacks and the cause of equality. They pushed back the Union martial leaders at nearly every turn.

It's pretty interesting to read about. But I understand if it's a bother to your political feelings, your sympathies to the South, and your little book of quotations and aphorisms.

Sprezzatura said...

Sheesh, can't contractors in Madison pour a slab for a monument such that the slab is square to the group of graves that it commemorates?

P.S.,

It's pretty cool to see how riled up Althouse is as a result of this plaque and other racist monuments being removed. But, she did not go on the record re condemning racist thugs and the resulting murder. I blame old age and a poor understanding of logic/math.

P.P.S.,

It's great to have a tag that identifies folks who use calls for civility to make people shut up. Would that cover using calls for free speech to criticize people who use legitimate and legal democratic processes (as allowed by the 1st amnd) (e.g. Baltimore/MadTown/many others) to remove memorials that were often installed to protest as the rights of minorities became more and more realized in America?

Free Speech Bullshit

Leland said...

You call the opponents on the battlefield, who give up their arms and surrender, heroes for the same reason you offer the chance of parole and provide fair treatment to criminals. It promotes cooperation resulting in less resources needed to control the prisoner or the need to simply execute them. But if you offer the sentiment in perfidy; then your lack of moral character will be remembered by the next warrior or criminal; and they will be less likely to surrender and will tend to fight to their last breath.

There was a time when people understood how to regain civility even in war. The first step is not acting exactly like your enemy for the reasons you hate your enemy.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Again, Ritmo, you don't grasp the concept of honor because you have none yourself. People of Lincoln's era took it very seriously. Certainly both Lincoln and Lee did as well as the people of Madison who honored the Confederate soldiers who had died at Camp Randall.

The jackals of the left have no honor; only malice.

Balfegor said...

RE: The Toothless Revolutionary:

Let me know how their deadly attacks on U.S. troops was more honorable than his, mkay? Attacks that led to the deaths of nearly half a million in the conflagration altogether.

Tell me what was honorable about that
.

I know you're not actually interested in a serious answer, but let me give one anyhow.

Nidal Hassan just opened fire on a bunch of his fellow soldiers without giving any notice.

If US Army officers with Rebel sympathies had decided to turn their guns on their fellow soldiers right there, they'd be exactly like Hassan. But instead, as far as I know, pretty much all of them resigned their commissions and left. And only after leaving did they take up arms against the Union.

It also doesn't seem like they made a huge secret of it either -- after Lee declined the offer to command the defense of Washington DC against the army of his home state of Virginia, were people actually shocked that a few days later, he accepted command of the Virginian army? That has an effect on the judgment of whether the rebels were acting honorably or dishonorably.

More generally, in the opening phases, the Union and Rebel forces seem to have danced around each other in very deliberate, very transparent fashion. Immediately preceding the attack on Fort Sumter, the Confederate rebels issued an ultimatum, which the commanding officer duly refused, after which they commenced bombardment. Much like the American Rebels in the Revolutionary War, the Confederate rebels gave their enemy due notice of their intent to effect their secession by arms. It was treason against the lawful authority in both cases, to be sure. And treason is dishonorable, whether against the British Crown or the Federal Government. But how you execute it makes a big difference in whether people see you as an honorable man.

(I was going to say "or as Brutus" there, but then I realised that actually, a lot of people do see Brutus as an "honorable man" no matter how sarcastic Marc Anthony gets.)

That said, there's plenty of instances of dishonorable conduct during the American Civil War, e.g. the guerillas, or the Andersonville POW camp (whose commandant was executed for war crimes after the war). But taking up arms on behalf of your state when your state is at war with the Federal government isn't remotely in the same category.

Mark said...

War is all hell.

It was bad enough that we fought that horror 150 years ago. And now we have those who want to do it all again, to "wage by force or guile eternal war, irreconcilable to [their] grand Foe." It is nefarious, it is diabolical. It is the way of hell. And we even have it going on in these pages.

None of this "with malice toward none" and "charity for all" stuff for them. None of this letting go, turning the other cheek, forgiving injuries, loving your enemy stuff for them. That's all backwards Christianism. Their's is a new morality for a new order which rejects such ideas -- rabid hate and nihilistic perpetual rage in the pursuit of power, but which ultimately seeks to destroy everything.

buwaya said...

Its interesting, the twists of history.
The US armies of 1898-99 were hailed at the time as the final marker of reconciliation between North and South, as the mostly volunteer army of State regiments was recruited from both, and they fought side by side for the first time against a common enemy. The US even put an ex-Confederate general at the head of the forces at Santiago.

Part of the reason for the memorials in non-southern cities was to draw Southerners to their allegiance to the nation. You, too, with your totems and heroes, are part of US again.

Now people are saying, symbolically - no, you are no longer of us, you are evil and alien. This is a recipe for bitter strife. A breaking of old trusts. This is sowing the wind.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Again, Ritmo, you don't grasp the concept of honor because you have none yourself. People of Lincoln's era took it very seriously. Certainly both Lincoln and Lee did as well as the people of Madison who honored the Confederate soldiers who had died at Camp Randall.

The jackals of the left have no honor; only malice.


Listen to this lost-causer/anti-reconstructionist personalize the discussion with stupid 19th c. ad hominems as if they are somehow any excuse for the very real shifting of the problem from one of white supremacy to one of insufficient "honor". This is exactly what Jefferson Davis did, and why precious few Americans know enough about Confederate history to be a part of any progress made toward a racially equal society.

It's a cover-up.

Michael K said...

what he felt was unjust treatment of him. He had been a brilliant student yet was unable to advance in his career or gain the recognition and honor he felt he deserved.

Marat denounced Lavoisier, the greatest chemist in history and he was guillotined after the judge, Coffinhal, said. "La République n'a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes; le cours de la justice ne peut être suspendu." ("The Republic has no need of scientists or chemists; the course of justice cannot be delayed."
Kind of a Ritmo-like figure.

MayBee said...

Why do arguments about the Civil War and Civil War monuments not seem at all relevant? How did this suddenly become the big issue governments large and small must act on. What about the problems in people's current lives?

Michael K said...

Now people are saying, symbolically - no, you are no longer of us, you are evil and alien. This is a recipe for bitter strife. A breaking of old trusts. This is sowing the wind.

But, you see, the South now votes Republican.

walter said...


Blogger Laslo Spatula said...The plaques have been removed, and the signal has been sent. How long before the cemetery is vandalized? One week? Two?
I am Laslo. 8/17/17, 2:58 PM
-Madison teachers might reschedule some field trips for that.

Marc in Eugene said...

The monument remaining, in addition to listing the names of the Confederate dead, also somehow 'reverences' "the Confederate insurrection and treason against the United States"? What other text is on the thing? the crossed flags symbol? Does it repeat what text was on the now-removed plaque?

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It was treason against the lawful authority in both cases, to be sure. And treason is dishonorable, whether against the British Crown or the Federal Government. But how you execute it makes a big difference in whether people see you as an honorable man.

The war had to be won for the constitution to be preserved, for the constitution had no force if secession from it could be ignored. As the first example of total war, perhaps the North was more responsible for moving to a more brutal phase (I'm totally speculating), but of course the North was industrialized enough to do so. It wasn't agrarian. So it decisively won the war, and it wasn't a nicely fought one. But what it failed was the reconstruction - and there is not a credible historical explanation for that other than how much less relentlessly it pursued reconstruction than it had pursued union victory.

I actually don't have anywhere near as much of a problem with simple soldier graves as I do with statues - esp. in the Capitol rotunda! But I take every opportunity available to stomp on the whines of the same people who would have stifled reconstruction then as they do to stifle progress and accurate historical understandings and integration and a rejection of white supremacy as the greatest evil in our nation's story today.

buwaya said...

Men are tribal by nature. The surest way to force them into a single force is to challenge them as a tribe.

This monument-destruction is an insult against tribal totems. This will just spawn more and more unified enemies.

Do not discount the importance of symbols and taboos. My example is taken from the history I know best. It was not the anonymous cruelty of the Japs, the bombings and killings in war that made the Filipinos hate them so passionately, but their insults, their habit of slapping faces and beating of women on the street in view of their men. The old colonialists understood well that it was better to kill a man than to insult him.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

But, you see, the South now votes Republican.

Here's another lost-causer, the nursemaid-suckled elitist, Michael K.

The particular lost cause he promotes above is the contention in vogue with Republicans that party positions don't change. That their moral and political interests remain static.

The guy eats his own hogwash.

Sprezzatura said...

"How did this suddenly become the big issue governments large and small must act on. What about the problems in people's current lives?"

Well, many (if not the vast majority) popped up as whites became fussy as minorities started to more and more receive equal treatment in America.

IOW, it was inevitable that this last gasp of institutionalized/gov racism would eventually not stand This would inevitably not last because you can't roll back progress toward equality, so eventually equality would mean the eliminations of symbols meant to oppose equality.

Duh.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

NO VOTE. Dictator with the D does what he wants.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

In 1913, a 50th anniversary reunion of Confederate and Union troops was held at Gettysburg. Old Confederate soldiers did an reenactment of Pickett's charge. The old Union soldiers who watched gasped and then ran forward to meet their old enemies and embraced them, "in brotherly love and affection."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwRbDxf7kT4

These were men who had actually seen their friends ripped to shreds and maimed at Gettysburg.

"Brotherly love and affection?" Fuck that, says Ritmo, over 150 years later.

Those Union men would be ashamed of you.

buwaya said...

These taboos are not obsolete symbols.

You will do poorly in Asia if you don't understand. These things may even have to be learned by osmosis and implication.

The US has plenty of these taboos.
And I think it's just as likely that this riding roughshod over the totems of a mighty people will also make trouble here.

Michael K said...

" That has an effect on the judgment of whether the rebels were acting honorably or dishonorably. "

The board of directors of the Louisiana college that Sherman was president of begged him to stay.

His reply is the famous letter in which he told them they could not prevail.

Unknown said...

TTR says the North was too lenient, too nice, and should have been far harsher on the South. So when Lee surrendered, the North let them go back to their homes and families.

That's "too nice" though, and the North should have.... what? Executed them all after taking their weapons? Yeah, that's moral and right (though it really is a leftist thing to do, naturally). Put them all in prison forever?

That sounds like a great incentive to stop fighting, doesn't it? "Lay down your weapons so we can jail you or execute you! Revenge! Kill all the traitors!"

Probably what TTR has in mind is Sherman's march and its destruction--except over the entire south. Absolute mayhem, terrorizing, plundering and wanton destruction, then starving of millions of people who just had their crops destroyed. The Ukranian Holodomor, just a few decades earlier. Is that what you preferred would have happened, TTR?

Maybe he wanted the Roman solution: Decimate the population in the literal meaning; i.e. hanging one man out of every ten. That would have shown them!

The North chose to treat the south as states, not conquered enemies... for the most part. You, clearly, think the South should have been enslaved and its people turned into chattel.

And you claim moral superiority. When really, it's all bigotry.

--Vance

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

"Brotherly love and affection?" Fuck that, says Ritmo, over 150 years later.

Those Union men would be ashamed of you.


And I'm ashamed of the way their preferences kept civil rights from being law for another 50 years afterward, just like the failed, wimpy reconstruction failed to do it 50 years before.

You are arguing for stagnant rotting of race relations. Because "honor."

Stop thinking about the "racially superior" soldiers and start thinking about slaves, you elitist twat. They matter as do their lynched and redlined and poll-taxed and voting restricted descendants.

Reconstruction involved martial law. Let's ask some real soldiers how you transform a sectarian supremacist society to a legal, rights-respecting equal one without a much harsher reconstruction effort than the one you defend from then and now.

Michael K said...

Fools posture and opine about things they have no idea about.

THis is going to get much much worse unless sanity breaks out and the Black Power movement seems determined to force a race war.

I must say the snowflakes of the left do not look much much of an opponent,

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Someone mentioned, and I forget who (sorry) that soon we will have bronze statues of Trevon Martin and Michael Brown, the guy who robbed a convenience store before attempting to take a police officers gun.

MayBee said...

This would inevitably not last because you can't roll back progress toward equality, so eventually equality would mean the eliminations of symbols meant to oppose equality.

Or perhaps....a political party that promises it will deliver better lives to its people but in reality find it difficult to do so, goes for the low-hanging fruit of removing symbols in the hopes that will appease them.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...


But, you see, the South now votes Republican.

8/17/17, 7:05 PM

Which is exactly why it is an issue now, and wasn't when Jimmy Carter or Clinton were in office.

It has nothing to do about the treason of 1861 (I'm sure Ritmo is really angry about Hanoi Jane's trip to North Vietnam and her cheerleading for the Viet Cong) and is all about punishing present day Southerners for voting for Trump.

It's absurd to think the people who wave Hammer and Sickle flags at rallies and burn American ones have any patriotic feelings at all.

Sprezzatura said...

"Stop thinking about the "racially superior" soldiers and start thinking about slaves, you elitist twat."

Maybe if she thinks about Moooslims cutting off cocks, raping, torturing, murdering, and enslaving human beings, she can start to put a group of white folks role playing in a field into proper context re slavery supporters in America.

JK.

Howard said...

buwata puti: You still don't get our culture, only a trace minority cares about politics because as bad as it is, we aren't hot blooded fascists with a chip on our shoulder. White privilege has too much going for it to motivate normal people to upset the apple cart.

D. said...

18 U.S. Code § 1369 - Destruction of veterans’ memorials

US Code
Notes

prev | next
(a) Whoever, in a circumstance described in subsection (b), willfully injures or destroys, or attempts to injure or destroy, any structure, plaque, statue, or other monument on public property commemorating the service of any person or persons in the armed forces of the United States shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.
(b) A circumstance described in this subsection is that—
(1) in committing the offense described in subsection (a), the defendant travels or causes another to travel in interstate or foreign commerce, or uses the mail or an instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce; or
(2) the structure, plaque, statue, or other monument described in subsection (a) is located on property owned by, or under the jurisdiction of, the Federal Government.
(Added Pub. L. 108–29, § 2(a), May 29, 2003, 117 Stat. 772


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1369

DHunter said...

Definition of desecration: Desecration is the act of depriving something of its sacred character, or the disrespectful, contemptuous, or destructive treatment of that which is held to be sacred or holy by a group or individual.

The mayor of Madison is a Neanderthal.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

What's next after all the statues and graves are removed? Anyone not leftwing to the internment camp? Stripped of all belongings which are confiscated and donated to the Demcorat-CNN-State-Clinton Foundation?

YoungHegelian said...

Actually, there's a part of me that's glad that, of all the things the Left could have chosen to pursue, they chose to desecrate the memory & graves of the dead.

I simply cannot imagine a bigger loser of a proposition, even among those who are sympathetic to many of the larger issues.

That the Republican Congress is absolutely useless? That our moral & military standing in the world is imperiled after 8 years of Obama & 8 months of Trump? That no one seems to have a sane way forward in the health care crisis?

That's trivial shit! We gotta get on to important stuff, like re-doing the landscape in accordance with an utterly bullshit revisionist history of the Civil War, because, yah know, there just isn't enough written about the Civil War.

I expect the electoral map, already Red at a level unprecedented in US history, to get even redder. Good job, Lefties!

Howard said...

Doc Mike must be buying that Alex Jones tripe. Enjoy the bunker, hope you don't run out of propane and depends.

D. said...

"Forest Hill Cemetery is one of the first U.S. National Cemeteries in Wisconsin.

In an even earlier time, Native Americans used this high ground as a burial ground, evidenced by an Effigy Mound Grouping, where noble warriors are buried. This mound, in the shape of a goose, is located on the southeast side of the cemetery. It is listed in the National Register of Historic Places."

http://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/find-a-park/cemetery/

Sprezzatura said...

"Or perhaps....a political party that promises it will deliver better lives to its people but in reality find it difficult to do so, goes for the low-hanging fruit of removing symbols in the hopes that will appease them."

Ha Ha Ha.

You do see that that's exactly what I described when I (accurately) described the origin of many (most?) of these statues. Right?

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Ritmo, we're on to you. You don't give a shit about blacks, not really. They're a useful weapon for you, not real individuals.

You care only about your own vengeance and hatred.

You'd be a Marat if you could.

MayBee said...

You do see that that's exactly what I described when I (accurately) described the origin of many (most?) of these statues. Right?

Does that mean you agree that's what's happening now?

Howard said...

Funny how a couple trolls can trigger so many big strong christian conservative family value racists. Good times.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Statue of Lincoln Defaced In Chicago

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Howard- you left the Jews out of your standard boilerplate proggy cartoon rant.

Sprezzatura said...

MayBee,

If you'll acknowledge that low hanging fruit is still perfectly acceptable fruit.

Sure, I'll agree.

A good capitalist always goes for the low hanging fruit. Only a complete idiot would ignore it.


BTW, I'll also agree that it's the same political party in both situations.


Michael K said...

Blogger Howard said...
Doc Mike must be buying that Alex Jones tripe. Enjoy the bunker, hope you don't run out of propane and depends.


I see you are taking the Ritmo route to stupidity.

OK. You have been a pretty steady lefty but you seem to be going off the cliff.

Goodbye. One more commenter I can scroll by quickly.

mockturtle said...

Marat denounced Lavoisier, the greatest chemist in history and he was guillotined after the judge, Coffinhal, said. "La République n'a pas besoin de savants ni de chimistes; le cours de la justice ne peut être suspendu." ("The Republic has no need of scientists or chemists; the course of justice cannot be delayed."
Kind of a Ritmo-like figure.


Ritmo had better stay out of the bathtub.

The Vault Dweller said...

I generally don't like taking down the monuments. The newer the monuments are the less I care about them, but the older they are the more I care about them remaining up. I've heard the history argument, and I think there is something to that, but I've always thought the monuments more served as a facilitator of reconciliation.

The civil war was an awful, bloody affair. Over 600,000 died. In present day terms that would be over 6,000,000. It was only won when the North really took the fight to the south with General Sherman's march to the sea, in the wake of which his army left destruction and devastation on the populace at large. At the end of the war there were two basic strategies the north could have followed. 1) Northern domination over the south treating them as a completely subservient territory with no rights and not full members of the union, or 2) a beaten foe that must ultimately reintegrate into the union as full and equal members.

We chose strategy 2. And I always thought that part of that strategy was letting the south retain some measure of dignity. While certainly not endorsing their goal or their actions, at least letting the south acknowledge that the men you fought for the south did so out of an act of bravery. It seems pretty far-fetched that some poor to middling farmer in the south would risk his life merely for the preservation of slavery and instead probably was motivated in protecting his homeland. Which he may have viewed as Virginia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Alabama etc. Having monuments to the participants and the fallen of the civil war let's the south save some face, which in my mind helps towards reconciliation and healing the wounds. The Civil War wasn't like other wars, because we were fighting ourselves and in the end we needed to come back together as one after the fact. The monuments may have helped in that pursuit, and in taking them down we may loose sight of the fact that Americans are willing to sacrifice their pride to some extent so that Americans can stay united.

mockturtle said...

That's "too nice" though, and the North should have.... what? Executed them all after taking their weapons? Yeah, that's moral and right (though it really is a leftist thing to do, naturally). Put them all in prison forever?

Reconstruction was punishment enough.

walter said...

The Toothless Revolutionary said...Here's another lost-causer, the nursemaid-suckled elitist, Michael K.

Alright!! Full on Toothless!

Humperdink said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"Actually, there's a part of me that's glad that, of all the things the Left could have chosen to pursue, they chose to desecrate the memory & graves of the dead.

I simply cannot imagine a bigger loser of a proposition, even among those who are sympathetic to many of the larger issues."

According to the NPR/PBS/ Marist poll (not a bunch inclined to skew a poll rightward) , 62% of Americans oppose the removal of Confederate statues. 53% of people in the Northeast and 61% in the West oppose their removal. 44% of blacks oppose it and 65% of Hispanics. Only 27% of Americans approve.

Ritmo, Howard and PB really have their finger on the pulse of America on this one!

And that's just statues - not the desecration of graves. Wait until ISIS- excuse me, Antifa - starts digging up graves. That'll be a hit with Howard and Ritmo.

The sane will be repelled.

Go ahead, run with this one, lefties! I know you will!

Humperdink said...

This Blue v. Gray crap heats up any further and the reenactors will start using live rounds.

Sprezzatura said...

exile,

I agree that we're at (or before) the tipping point. Especially re generic national aggregations.

But, it's inevitable that monuments that were specifically put up to fuss about the increasing equality of minorities in America will go away.

Also, don't forget the difference between nation wide vague polling and local jurisdictions. What is overall congressional approval right now? 20%, or so. I dunno. But, it's low. And yet, will we have an 80% turnover in 2018?

These decisions are being made locally, just as Congressional Critters are chosen.

And, finally, regardless of polling. I want to be where I feel is morally right. I will always oppose monuments that were erected to make a fuss re minorities getting closer to equal rights in America.





Michael K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael K said...

I think Walter and Howard and the rest of the Democrats should bind themselves to ANTIFA with "chains of adamant."

A friend long ago told me he was thinking of joining the John Birch Society. I told him I didn't think it was a good idea as someday some idiot will throw a bomb or take a shot at the president.

Howard and Walter are not friends so I say "Go for it!"

Democrats are choosing sides. They have chosen the Palestinians and Black Lives Matter. Now they can join ANTIFA and we'll see who doe the first terror attack. Real terror attack. Not just shooting at cops.

Just don't ask me for bail money.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Howard said...
Funny how a couple trolls can trigger so many big strong christian conservative family value racists. Good times."

First of all, not all non-leftist commentators here are conservative or Christian. I know these nuances escape the notice of the dimwitted, like you.

Secondly, when stupidity like yours shows up it's almost like a natural marvel, and it makes it difficult not to comment on it. Really, are you in a competition with Inga and sunsong and PB to be the Dumbest Lefty at Althouse? Well, you're off to a good start, but really, you've got some hard work in front of you to be the bigoted dullard we all know you can be. But I have faith in you, Howie! C'mon, display more stupidity! You can do it, little fella!



Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
It's pretty cool to see how riled up Althouse is as a result of this plaque and other racist monuments being removed. But, she did not go on the record re condemning racist thugs and the resulting murder.


The moral calculus here is not higher math.

buwaya said...

The Filipinos are a bit medieval, not fascist.

And your own people are much more medieval than you think.

I have what you dont have, which is an outsiders perspective, and in my case especially as a perpetual outsider, an alien even in the land of my birth.

I dont subscribe to your own myths about yourselves, and moreso I have plenty of experience with all your tribal groups, as I get along with all of them, as intermediating between alien groups is my ancestral heritage.

Its interesting that even a cosmopolitan American, and my example is Stanley Karnow, can so fail to understand the peoples he writes about, precisely because he has little perspective. Ref "In Our Image". He relates, but concedes his inability to understand the concepts of martrydom and of kinship through blood. He also relates how so many Americans (like MacArthur) did understand, and he could not understand these Americans either.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

MayBee said...
How did this suddenly become the big issue governments large and small must act on.


You may have seen it in the news. These things attract armed gangs of fascists carrying torches who will illegally march down your streets attempting to intimidate the local residents. Who wants that in their neighborhood? If it is going to attract vermin then throw it out.

Anonymous said...

Isn't it interesting that those who actually were fighting the Confederates treated their dead with such respect and that now over 150 years later some have decided that they don't deserve that respect?

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Vault Dweller @ 7:39 brings the reasoning you will not find on the progressive left.

buwaya said...

If throwing it out serves only to turn your neighbors against you, this may be a bad policy.

Better to tolerate the vermin in order to appease the giant.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

buwaya puti said...
Men are tribal by nature. The surest way to force them into a single force is to challenge them as a tribe.

their insults, their habit of slapping faces and beating of women on the street in view of their men. The old colonialists understood well that it was better to kill a man than to insult him.


So, in your view, conducting an intimidatory and illegal march carrying guns and torches at night and then killing a woman the next day fully justifies the anger and outrage that middle class men across the nation now feel towards the fascists and their apologists.

Rosalyn C. said...

I wasn't saying that the Confederate soldiers were more honorable than say, Nidal Hasan, (apparently you are a fan of the jihadist), and therefore deserve respect more than he. I was pointing out simply that we won the Civil War and reconciliation includes forgiving your enemies. Like for example, we are forgiving of Germans and Japanese and at this point we can on occasion even recognize the bravery and dedication of our old enemies. We can even say, sorry for bombing the heck out of you and they can forgive us. The Japanese still have their memorials to their soldiers who died in WWII as well as the Germans have theirs.

However, the middle of a war, such as the war we are now conducting against Islamic terrorism, is not the time for forgiveness. So no to forgiving Nidal Hasan. Thanks to our mainstream media, unfortunately, many Americans are not aware of this war and see isolated attacks as random violence and various Islamic terrorist groups as unconnected. That's probably the reason for the confusion rather than being a fan of Nidal Hasan.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

" I will always oppose monuments that were erected to make a fuss re minorities getting closer to equal rights in America."

Good for you, Principled One on your brave stance on an issue that wasn't an issue for you or anybody until the day before yesterday. Were Confederate statues keeping you up at night 10 years ago? They've been there for a century or more but suddenly a statue of Lee in a town 1200 miles away from you is a burr under your ass - because the people who tell you what to think told you it should be and you obeyed like a good little sheep.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

So, in your view, conducting an intimidatory and illegal march carrying guns and torches at night and then killing a woman the next day fully justifies the anger and outrage that middle class men across the nation now feel towards the fascists and their apologists.

More or less. byway's the type of guy who would argue himself into the 11th circle of Hell, or whatever - just for the fun of it.

buwaya said...

The other aspect of this iconoclasm is the subtext the other side is hearing.

This is something you must consider in sending political messages, the effect of your acts on your opponents. This sort of thing is by implication an egregious attack on your Southern white people, an insult against their amour-propre.
You must care, in peace, about the state of mind of your enemies, or you might thoughtlessly make war.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"However, the middle of a war, such as the war we are now conducting against Islamic terrorism, is not the time for forgiveness. "

The Left forgives Muslims before the blood from the latest terrorist attack has been mopped up.

19th century Southerners? Hey, not so fast!

Michael said...

ARM
Why not put plaques on every statue that offends and explain why the person represented is a loser, vile, racist, etc. Would that not at the very least make for an educational opportunity? When the statues are gone the empty plinths will be monuments to the stupidity of those who saw to their removal. The little black boys and girls will not be one bit better off after they are gone and conceivably would be if they knew something of the history of their towns and their nation and some of the evil people who lost a battle to keep their ancestors enslaved. Instead there will be voids.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

lame street sure spends a lot of time making sure that the honored cause of fighting for white supremacy is preserved for the honorable institution that it (apparently in her mind) is.

Fuck the wretched slaves. It's about the racially superior soldiers!

If only we could get to the bottom of what that whole war was about. Not the slaves, saith lame street! Not the blacks!

It was about those oh so darned honorable racially superior white soldiers.

And now you know why race relations suck in America - and will for another hundred years.

Humperdink said...

ARM said: "So, in your view, conducting an intimidatory and illegal march carrying guns and torches at night and then killing a woman the next day fully justifies the anger and outrage that middle class men across the nation now feel towards the fascists and their apologists."

Diagram that sentence!!

buwaya said...

The Japanese not only have memorials in Japan, but all over the Philippines. They left 400,000 dead there.

The Filipinos understand honor however, and are Christians who can forgive. Eventually.

The Chinese and Koreans however have not forgiven.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

The Left forgives Muslims before the blood from the latest terrorist attack has been mopped up.

19th century Southerners? Hey, not so fast!


At least we and the Muslims know where they stand.

You remind me of the Egyptian cleric who denied Muhammad was a pedophile.

The Southerners were honorably fighting to preserve their empire of white supremacy!

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

buwaya said...
Better to tolerate the vermin in order to appease the giant.


If you are referring to mob violence, then shame on you.

Michael said...

ARM
The march, as you well know, was not illegal. It had a permit. Too bad there is no agency on the part of the antifa or the whole mess could have been avoided and the woman would still be alive. But, alas, they were provoked and of, course, there is nothing to do but act if you are provoked.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

To lame street blacks and slaves were a minor distracting footnote to the Civil War - a conflict that was really just about the white soldiers on either side who were (honorably!) fighting either for or against their racial superiority.

It doesn't matter which side they were on. Let's commemorate both causes.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It is equally honorable to fight either for or against racial superiority.

lamestreet shed a tear over it.

Drago said...

ARM: "The moral calculus here is not higher math."

The gal that helped tear down a statue and was arrested is a North Korea supporting communist.

But in a good way.

We need more lectures from the likes of her.

Michael said...

Why, dear progs, did it take you till now to get woke? These statues have been hanging around for over a hundred years gracing the courthouse squares and public parks. You not woke, dudes, not if it took you this long to get how we poke you in the eye with our symbols that you don't even notice until you are told to. But you will do as you are told even if you don't hear the voices.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

lame street doesn't know if she's for white supremacy or against it.

But she knows that it's an honorable thing to fight for.

Drago said...

It is equally honorable to fight either for or against racial superiority.

That explains the lefts defense of islamic supremacism.

traditionalguy said...

FTR the Confederate Flags are St Andrews Cross Scots Flag adopted as the National Flag of the Presbyterian Covenanters at war with the Catholic World Cult Church. That was one more reason for the Southerners to fight to the death for it.

But the Monuments now sought to be removed were the permanent sign of a new covenant for Scots-Irish Southern men not to fight to the death for any country except the USA. Breaking that covenant would be the highest goal of Obama, Soros, and EU Globalists who were never able to beat the united American States before under Jackson or after the War of the Southern Rebellion under Pershing, MacArthur and Patton.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Ritmo blathered about me, a Northerner whose family wasn't even in the country at the time:

" Listen to this lost-causer/anti-reconstructionist "

Your hatred is making you dumber by the day.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Michael said...
Why not put plaques on every statue that offends


Michael, I am actually not in favor of removing the statues, as I have stated in some other threads. I don't have strong feelings about the history behind them so they have no emotional resonance for me one way or the other. They are just one of the ugly things that all communities have lying about public spaces in one form or another. In another thread it was pointed out that the statues are actually symbols of Jim Crow since they were generally put up during the Jim Crow era. I find that the most persuasive argument I have heard against them so far. For many people I can understand that this is a very compelling argument.

Laslo Spatula said...

Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I do not recognize what America has become, but I have made my peace with that. When you lose a war you cannot expect the future to make much sense to you...

I lost a brother and three cousins in the war, one cousin of which fought on the side of the North. I visit their graves, and imagine what could have been. All these years later, I see that when America gets a fever the blood runs hot and violence rules the day. The violence of today seems to have less Honor, but I suppose I would think that: it is a different time, but it seems somehow to become more of the same...

I never owned a slave. I see what has happened to the Negroes and I wonder if they are really any better off; again, maybe that is just the world through my eyes. It seems the Negro is haunted by a past whose shadow they cannot escape, and this shadow makes them angry at the sun. Of course, I cannot escape the past either, which is why I wander this world as a spirit that has not made it to Heaven...

I was part of a wound that is never to be forgotten: unlike the people of today I remember the blood in all its red horror. And there was so much blood: limbs cut off by saws, brains blasted from their skulls, horrible gut shots where death seemed to take forever to come...

Maybe every generation or two blood needs to be recklessly spilled, to test the people and the peace. At least that is what I have seen, and I don't expect anything different to come. I am Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I am Laslo.

Michael said...

buwaya made the excellent point earlier about things that have vanished from our former culture. Great books that have been replaced by crap. What "art" will sit on these empty plinths? Are there progs capable of creating statues or will we have abstract pieces of metal trash gracing our squares? Our leaders are stupid so we can begin there.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Michael K said...
Fools posture and opine about things they have no idea about.


I drew blood biting my tongue when I read this.

Sprezzatura said...

"No we didn't, Ritmo, because Lincoln was assassinated, remember? When that idiot ham actor John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln, he didn't realize that it would hurt the South most."

Presumably, if it hadn't hurt the South the most, there'd be statues of him all over the place, along w/ the rest of them. Then you wouldn't be calling him an idiot, either.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

You don't give a shit about "the wretched slaves" ritmo. You're not fooling anybody.

All you care about is your own hatred and spite.

You're a vicious and petty little man.

Michael said...

ARM
The statues for the most part were put up long before the Jim Crow era but they were not put up to celebrate slavery or to wound the blacks about whom you can bet they gave no thought.

Unknown said...

"Fools posture and opine about things they have no idea about."

"I drew blood biting my tongue when I read this."

Chuckling.

Michael K said...

It is an absolute waste of time to engage with leftist trolls like Ritmo.

"Your hatred is making you dumber by the day."

That is what they do.

There are some interesting commenters here but once a thread gets longer than 200 comments, the trolls come out from wherever they roost and contaminate the thread.

I usually go read a book then. I am reading McCollough's The Path Between the Seas." which I missed when it came out.

Nothing Ritmo or his leftist compatriots post is as interesting.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

The left are petty fascists. It starts with Chuck Todd.

Michael K said...

"I drew blood biting my tongue when I read this."

ARM is an expert on everything.

Just ask him.

Bye.

Fernandinande said...

R.J. Chatt said...
So where is all this racism we hear about non-stop from the Left?


It's imaginary.

The police treatment of young AA males? check.

No, not check. NCVS matches police and arrest reports, police shootings per incident are more common for whites. There are more incidents for blacks because they commit more crimes.

Do you think the 8X murder rate, compared to whites, of blacks killing other blacks, is due to racism?

Failing inner city schools? check.

No, not check. Non-blacks, especially Asians who are poorer than the blacks and are ESL, go to the same schools and do much better, often better than whites; spending more money (e.g. Kansas City), adding programs (e.g. Head Start) make no difference.

Mostly the effects of racism are persistent poverty and lack of upward mobility and lack of opportunities for economic development.

Low IQ and criminal behavior are not the result of racism.

This racism is not about white supremacists or Confederate statues. That's Trump's point of view, and his solution is to change the education system, offer better private schools and bring back economic opportunities.

They've been playing with that for 40 or 50 years. No effect.

For that he's accused of being a racist and white supremacist. He's focused on solutions, not politically correct rhetoric.

Your post was politically correct rhetoric.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

You don't give a shit about "the wretched slaves" ritmo. You're not fooling anybody.

All you care about is your own hatred and spite.

You're a vicious and petty little man.


Clearly the voice of a woman who has her finger on the pulse of race relations.

So what do you tell American blacks about those statues? Do you want them to bow down to them, also?

What exactly was honorable about their cause?

The term "white privilege" had to be invented for someone like you. Clearly you have positions about things from years ago - i.e. reconstruction and the lost cause, and glom onto them in the way that only some bitchy entitled old white lady can do.

You keep pasting an "honor" on something that had none. Because you care more about preserving white people's feelings of pride about that past than in getting at the root of what the conflict actually consisted of.

Your emotions are no more honorable than anyone else's. They're just part of what makes you irrational.

buwaya said...

Stanley Karnow taught me a lot.
He wrote several very good books, especially the essential "In Our Image".

But more than that he gave me a lesson in human nature, in that even the well read, tireless researcher, even one who personally speaks with hundreds of his subjects, can come out of it with no human understanding. This skates close to the idea of EQ, or emotional intelligence quotient. Yes, a rather fuzzy and barely scientific concept, and not, so far, measurable. Still, its possible to say that, whatever it is, Stanley Karnow had little and Douglas MacArthur had plenty.

This whole monuments business also sorts out the EQ.

Big Mike said...

@Michael K, have you thought about laughing at them?

Sprezzatura said...

"I usually go read a book then. I am reading McCollough's The Path Between the Seas." which I missed when it came out."

Okay, taking bets on the countdown to Doc Mike's declaration that it's sleepy time.

I'm goin' w/ two hours and forty seven minutes.

For bonus: time until he repeats his original formulation "the victors write history" (which he has used as a comment first sentence four thousand and ninety two times, so far.

I've got twenty six minutes.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

I note for the record that never once has nursemaid-suckled Michael K ever successfully rebutted a single claim I ever made.

And his ad hominems are as shitty as a rodent's belch.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

exiledonmainstreet said...
According to the NPR/PBS/ Marist poll (not a bunch inclined to skew a poll rightward) , 62% of Americans oppose the removal of Confederate statues. 53% of people in the Northeast and 61% in the West oppose their removal. 44% of blacks oppose it and 65% of Hispanics. Only 27% of Americans approve.


I fall into the 'disapprove' category but I also fall into the 'ultimately it is the local communities that get to decide' category. They didn't ask the right question.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

PB, you don't read books, why are you arguing about the Civil War?

Lincoln's plan was to end the war as quickly as he could (which was impossible as long as he had useless generals like McClellan) but to be magnanimous after victory. He was assassinated before the war was over, so the Southern people saw only the ruthlessness of the war, not the magnanimity he intended to show them.

Debating with someone who is proudly ignorant of history and thinks reading is for nerds is a waste of my time. Read some books that aren't Marvel Comics or the Cliff Notes editions of the Civil War and get back to me.

D. said...

I'm calling the US Attorney for Eastern District of Wisconsin in the morning to file a
complaint. Being on two different federal registrars, this leftist clown can't do unilateral temper tantrums. US Attorney:

U.S. Attorney's Office
517 E. Wisconsin Ave, Ste 530
Milwaukee WI 53202


Milwaukee Main Phone: (414) 297-1700

Big Mike said...

What exactly was honorable about their cause?

Nothing, you ignorant baboon.

But once upon a time fighting men respected honor, valor, and integrity, even in the men they were trying to kill and who were trying to kill them. We've lost that, I think.

You may want to get a dictionary to look up those words; I'm morally certain that you have no concept as to their meaning.

Sprezzatura said...

exile,

Reading is for nerds.


Sprezzatura said...

DJT isn't a nerd.

chickelit said...

Etienne wrote: The Democrat Negro Woman State Senator Maria Chappelle-Nadal has called for the President to be assassinated.

If you follow the link you'll read that she was in a conversation with a person who had a relative assigned to Trump in the Secret Service. I'd look into that person before the wacky State Senator.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Michael said...
The statues for the most part were put up long before the Jim Crow era


Are you sure on this? The original Jim Crow laws date back to the 1870s. According to this the first attempt to break the Jim Crow laws started in 1875. I think most of the statues date to around or after this period, but I am less sure on this.

Sprezzatura said...

exile,

I feel bad about what I'm doin' to ya.

You really don't see what I'm doin' when I make you deride the usefulness and wisdom of folks who don't read?

Come on. How is it not obvious?

Please stop falling for it.

Rosalyn C. said...

I'm looking for monuments to slavery and white supremacism, you know, graphic sculptural images memorializing the plantation owner whipping a slave or something like that. That's what I'd expect to find given all the hoopla about symbols of white supremacism in the South and that all the Confederate statues have that sole explicit purpose. Can't find a single really good memorial to white supremacism and glorifying slavery.

FullMoon said...

Revolutionary leader Marat, you find that what primarily motivated him was not concern for the injustices of pre-Revolutionary France, but what he felt was unjust treatment of him. He had been a brilliant student yet was unable to advance in his career or gain the recognition and honor he felt he deserved. Partly it was because Parisian intellectual circles were very insular and snobby and difficult to break into without connections; partly because he was just an unpleasant asshole to be around. But his lack of success embittered him and filled him with hatred

That is ttr right there. Bitter because it is not appreciated for it's genius. I recognized it quite awhile ago, which is why I don't play with it anymore. Additionally, fairly certain it is housebound, for the most part, unable to go anywhere without assistance.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"So what do you tell American blacks about those statues?"

44% don't care about the statues. And I would wager that the ones who do have more pressing issues. You think a mom on the South Side of Chicago is fretting about Confederate statues in NC? No, she's hoping a bullet fired by a gangbanger won't come through the window and hit her kid.

" Do you want them to bow down to them, also? "

Ridiculous. Who the f is "bowing down to them?" How many people even notice statues in public parks? With the state of American education, I'll bet 99 out of 100 Americans of all races couldn't even tell you who Longstreet was, much less point out his statue in a public park. That includes people who walked past the statue 4 times a day their entire lives and never gave it a second thought. The Left decided to stir the shitpot because that is what you miserable, control freak assholes do.

Can your hyperbole get any more absurd? Can your thought process get any crazier? Betcha they can!

buwaya said...

People who do not read have had a terrible harm done to them. Whatever your qualities, reading can only improve them.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Michael said...
The march, as you well know, was not illegal.


The torch-lit gun-enforced fascist march on Friday night was illegal, as I understand things. You should watch this video for the first few minutes to get a flavor of the event.

Laslo Spatula said...

Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I see they are taking the statues down. Perhaps surprisingly, I am at peace with this: memories fade, and History begins another page. Me, I prefer to be at peace than to be dragged out in spirit for virtuous beatings. I fought in a war where my side lost: respectful silence is much to ask for, but I ask this of my God, anyway...

I see so much hate in people's hearts today: it seems a soft life turns some to hate and violence, maybe so that they can feel alive. When I was fighting in Pittsburg Landing I did not feel more alive. No, I feared death. I feared everything I knew, gone. When the fear of death is gone a people get the fever...

I must say, the fear of death for the Negro seems to be mostly because of his own brothers. They are forever cursed to fight a war where they inflict the most damages upon themselves. Maybe that view is colored by the past I lived in: I can accept that, for a man may only know what he wants to know....

I am Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I am Laslo.

walter said...

I think Walter and Howard and the rest of the Democrats should bind themselves to ANTIFA with "chains of adamant."
--
So..that was a deleted comment? As it should be. And Michael, after the many times that I've called out Toothless for his ridiculous ad hominems against you..maybe you two deserve each other.

FullMoon said...

Dem govt workers went through the trouble of removing plaque, but left the debris created by removal for somebody else to clean up. A handful of broken grout was just too much to handle. Hilariously typical.

Sprezzatura said...

For Fs sake, now buw's decided to be my chump.

What's wrong w/ y'all? Please stop falling for my low-level BS.

Please.

That's my uber shitty stuff, too. I can only imagine that my multi-level stuff just goes sailing by. At least it makes me happy.

Sheesh.

Rance Fasoldt said...

Reminds me of the taliban destroying the ancient buddhas and ISIS destroying Palmyra in Syria.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

I notice the Antifas are mostly white kids. Middle class pampered darlings who are getting the thrill of their lives being Street Fightin' Men!

Hey, it's more fun to hit a statue of Robert E. Lee with a stick than it is to go do volunteer work at the Rescue Mission or to teach an illiterate adult to read. Much more relevant.

Sprezzatura said...

It's kinda cool to think that there are folks around here who write and read earnestly.

Of course, for the earnest folks, I should probably specify that I don't actually mean 'cool'.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...


"What's wrong w/ y'all? Please stop falling for my low-level BS"

Falling? Everyone already knows you are a fool.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

But once upon a time fighting men respected honor, valor, and integrity, even in the men they were trying to kill and who were trying to kill them. We've lost that, I think.

That's a good thing. Fighting is for people who want to get beat up. And killing is for people who want to die.

Laslo Spatula said...

"It's kinda cool to think that there are folks around here who write and read earnestly."

The Importance of Being Ernest Borgnine.

When the ship went upside down he knew what to do.

I am Laslo.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

3rdGradePB_GoodPerson said...
It's kinda cool to think that there are folks around here who write and read earnestly."

yes, dearie. They're called "grownups."

FullMoon said...

exiledonmainstreet said...

"So what do you tell American blacks about those statues?"

44% don't care about the statues. And I would wager that the ones who do have more pressing issues. You think a mom on the South Side of Chicago is fretting about Confederate statues in NC? No, she's hoping a bullet fired by a gangbanger won't come through the window and hit her kid.


The idea is to get the southside mom pissed off some more. Keep the hate alive, Divide Americans. Left has been doing it for years. Hillarys campaign was all about divisiveness. TTR is perfect example. Pure hate. Wakes up hating, spends the day hating, goes to bed consumed with hatred.

Sprezzatura said...

"yes, dearie. They're called "grownups.""

Are those the people that read?

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Distilled, the left's argument is that if you don't want to remove these old statues and plaques, you're a Nazi white supremacist.

and you're deplorable.

Got that?

buwaya said...

My great-grandfather was a Spanish peasant. He was conscripted as an illiterate, and learned to read in the Army. He made himself wealthy through his own efforts, but always felt the lack of an education. He became a great reader, even a worshipper of books, and collected in his home one of the great Spanish libraries of the islands.
He is said to have had a complete collection of Galdos, which is a bit of a feat, something like collecting all of Balzac.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"I see so much hate in people's hearts today: it seems a soft life turns some to hate and violence, maybe so that they can feel alive. When I was fighting in Pittsburg Landing I did not feel more alive. No, I feared death. I feared everything I knew, gone. When the fear of death is gone a people get the fever..."

Excellent, Laslo.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Are those the people that read?

8/17/17, 8:59 PM

Those are the people that think.

You're in no danger of joining that crowd.

Michael K said...

Walter, did I treat you unfairly ?

The Toothless Revolutionary said...Here's another lost-causer, the nursemaid-suckled elitist, Michael K.

Alright!! Full on Toothless!


Maybe I misinterpreted. Tell me.

Ritmo is laughing material, Michael, but I don't respond to his sallies, such as they are.

There are people here who are worth while. I try to find and respond to them.

Char Char Binks, Esq. said...

I'm in favor of removing the R. E. Lee statue in Charlottesville, and any other heroic statue of Confederates, if that's the will of the people in the relevant jurisdictions.

That said, fuck Paul Soglin! This is a cemetery, where they came to bury those men who fought and died for their side. These are grave markers, not equestrian statues or other heroic symbols. What did Soglin ever fight for but to save his own yellow ass from going to Vietnam? That twat has been mayor on and off for over 20 years and he never gave a shit about the cemetery before. Maurice Cheeks, the stinking shitstain, claimed they were talking about removing the plaque even before Charlottesville. I'm sure the liberal electorate of Madison wants very much to believe him, and as long as all the shootings happen on or near Raymond Road, Badger Road, or on the North side, NITBY, they'll keep on dreaming they're woke.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

There are people here who are worth while. I try to find and respond to them.

I know. You say this every day, you nursemaid-suckled mental midget.

Multiple times a day, at that.

Are you at the stage where you have to remind yourself what you think?

As I said, a senior citizens day care center.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

Can Mayors be impeached?

Dude1394 said...

The Madison mayors relatives for all known history should have their grave sites destroyed, since you know "he knows what is, is not sacred."

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

When does the book burning begin?

Sprezzatura said...

Exile,

And, I think that my stool is red-ish.

Does that make me a thinker, or just someone who's into probiotic fermented raw beet juice?


exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
When does the book burning begin?

8/17/17, 9:07 PM

Any day now. In the name of anti-fascism.

n.n said...

but always felt the lack of an education. He became a great reader, even a worshipper of books

Necessity is the mother of education.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

TTR is perfect example. Pure hate.

Exactly. What this country really needs is more love for white supremacists, says Full Moon.

Big Mike said...

The torch-lit gun-enforced fascist march on Friday night was illegal, as I understand things.

Then can you explain why the police didn't stop it and disperse the marchers? But it had to have been a nonviolent march because they outnumbered the students they met on the quad by 8:1 and nothing happened. No punches thrown.

Hell, at 8:1 odds in their favor, even you might be tempted to throw a punch or two. After you finished crapping your pants.

buwaya said...

PB&J,

I don't understand your joke unfortunately.
Some of these things can be so self-referential that they disappear in a wisp. I prefer a cruder style of humor, that of Dickens, or the gloriously subtle Three Stooges.

The business of reading actually is quite important in this context, of this controversy, because long before the great iconoclasm of 2017, the same people, or probably their parents, were busy removing proper literature from the children of America.

If you want to be outraged at some genuine evil, this organized murder of the mind is an excellent candidate. No Nazis have ever harmed Anericans to this degree, even counting WWII.

walter said...

I can no longer respond to TTR's rants in anything but tongue in cheek.
I have repeatedly called out TTR's ageist rants..at least once suggesting he's a disgruntled nursing home worker snuffing/pillowing out lives when no one is watching.

Big Mike said...

And killing is for people who want to die.

I have some seriously bad news for you. You are going to die. I'm going to die. We're all going to die. But when I die, there will be people who mourn me.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

For those in the mood for a little schadenfreude this is almost worth watching.

MountainMan said...

@D - Thanks for taking this to the Federal DA. Based on an earlier post I made today I was hoping that someone with some legal knowledge would follow up on this. I checked the VA web site (as I should have thought to do earlier) and the Confederate and Union soldier plots are VA Cemetery Administration national cemeteries, NOT a city cemetery as he claims. I will be deloghted to see this fool Soglin get his just rewards. You are my hero for today and a good citizen. Please let us all know what you learn tomorrow.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"I have repeatedly called out TTR's ageist rants..at least once suggesting he's a disgruntled nursing home worker snuffing/pillowing out lives when no one is watching."

Ha! Yes, I think that's probably accurate.

Michael K., you misread walter.

chickelit said...

If anyone is interested in learning more about Soglin's background, you can see him in a stylized "documentary" called The War At Home< (1979). The accuracy of the film was questioned because the archival films were doctored: The filmmakers overdubbed shots of police "crowd control" with sound of dull thuds to simulate billy clubs meeting flesh. That's the part Soglin "starred" in and where he found his first glory. The film went on to examine the situation which led to the 1970 bombing of Sterling Hall. Perhaps the lowest point in the film was when police mug shots of the 4 suspects are shown with the photo of Leo Burt (the only one of the 4 still at large) blackened out in order to protect his identity.

I attended the Madison premiere at the Memorial Union Theater back in 1979 when I was a student there. I did not see Soglin, but I did recognize a couple of his closest mayoral aids. They had the chutzpah to cheer during the Leo Burt stunt.

Putting up a plaque near Sterling Hall to memorialize the innocent people killed and injured by people like Leo Burt took a long, long time for Madison to process, no thanks to people like Soglin. I hope the people of Madison will think long and hard about memorializing Paul Soglin when his time comes.

chickelit said...

The film does have an awesome soundtrack! Althouse has featured many of the songs recently.

Laslo Spatula said...

Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

Being a Ghost, I cannot look into people's hearts, but I can see them when they think no one is watching...

I see those in their private moments where hate is driven by a dark soul, and others where hate is driven by trembling fear. Very few can I see being on the Side of the Angels; the Angels have chosen to ignore these people, and leave them to their small pities...

Perhaps the Meek shall one day inherit the earth, but it is the spiritually weak that claim ownership today. Passion without Spirit leads to idle hands, and we know how the Devil likes those with idle hands...

I saw the Devil in the battlefields of war, and did my best to resist him; sadly, people today willingly accept his whispers in their ears. Maybe my time of living does not allow me to understand the people of today, but I believe I DO understand, though my heart may be questioned by those who did not live in my world...

I am Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I am Laslo.

Anonymous said...

No one's asking black or white Charlottesvillians to bow down to the damned statue, just to leave it alone, which they were already doing. I've walked right by that statue many times without ever noticing it was Lee, or bothering to look for an inscription, or noticing that any of the other people around of any race were paying the least bit of attention to it. (Advice for tourists: Looking for an available free parking space as close as possible to the Paramount Theater on the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, I almost always found one to the northwest, and a diagonal walk across the park was part of the most direct route from one to the other.)

Michael said...

ARM
I saw a video of the march and laughed out loud at the tiki torches. It was less a KKK type event than a European nationalist one. Many midnight strolls through the old towns with songs and torches and finally speeches about the good old days. Thought they had a permit but in any event when did it become illegal to do what they did, march-wise that is.

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

Michael K., you misread walter.

He misreads everything.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"I see those in their private moments where hate is driven by a dark soul, and others where hate is driven by trembling fear."

Point taken, Laslo.

Dear corrupt left, go F yourselves said...

ot: not on the CNN Chuck Todd pro-Democrat news alliance.

Wasserman Schultz' ex-IT aide indicted on 4 counts

Howard said...

My name is Juan Hano de Castro
My father was a Spanish grandee
But I won my wife in a card game, when a man lost his daughter to me

I picked up the ace
I had won her!
My heart, which was down at my feet
Jumped up to my throat in a hurry-
Like a warm summers' day, she was sweet

South Coast, the wild coast, is lonely
You may win at the game at Jolon
But the lion still rules the barranca, and a man there is always alone

Sprezzatura said...

It turns out that you DJT supporters musta been right, cause Iran condemned DJT's comments.

http://highlighthollywood.com/2017/08/israel-iran-uk-germany-all-condemn-trumps-support-of-white-supremacy-germany-warns-dont-make-our-mistake/

OTOH, so did Israel.

Golly, this is tricky. Gonna need to think for yourself?

JK. Just blindly support DJT, cause he's the Chuck of reading, i.e., a life long reader, so he must be right!

Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...

It's hard to call someone ageist when the accusation's against someone who's repeatedly called juvenile by the old fart.

And Michael K does have a habit of repeating himself. Repeatedly. I really do think he forgets what he was supposed to be saying.

He never comes up with anything rational, or new, to say. Just dull, dull, dull.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Iran just held a public flogging to punish a guy for drinking alcohol and I'm supposed to care about their opinion of Charlottesville?

Ah, you're such a joker, PB! Such an amusing doofus.

Michael K said...

Walter, I apologize. I misread a what may have been sarcasm/.

No Nazis have ever harmed Americans to this degree, even counting WWII.

I agree, I would suggest reading "the Path Between the Seas" as an antidote to the anger and foolishness in these comments. I fear that we are destined for an era of agitation. Tucson, in spite of the goofs at the University, is a good place to ride it out.

My children in California will have a harder time. I had dinner with three of them this week and all are planning to leave the state when they retire and no longer have to live there for work.

Fortunately, a leftist state legislator is in favor of the middle class leaving as this will make more room for "immigrants."

I'm not kidding.


Laslo Spatula said...

(And, yes, I named Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost after one of GuildofCannonball's favorites.)

I am Laslo.

William said...

If I were drawing up a hierarchy of haters, I would rank neo-Nazis and KKK members higher than anti-fas and anarchists, but any sane person would put ISIS and their sympathizers at the very top. I'm not at all sure how the left would draw up their chart. I think it's possible that they hate Trump and his followers more than ISIS....... I think a good and convincing case can be made for taking down some Confederate monuments. This one in Madison seems to have been discreetly placed and graciously worded. It's removal is mean spirited and graceless.

Howard said...

Nazi Christopher Cantwell Crying (ARM Youtube link) "I know we talk a lot of shit on the internet, right? But like literally Jason Kessler applied for a permit, like months ago for this, Okay?" A confederacy of wussies

Sprezzatura said...

Exile,

Ya got me there. It's not like there was some other stuff after my first sentence that was intended to hook the low hanging fruit around here.

[BTW, being earnest, I really would like you to stop falling for my ploys. Would you consider skipping my comments as you read these threads? I can't see any other remedy for your gullibility. Don't feel bad, I already have this arrangement w/ Doc Mike, so you're not alone.]

Howard said...

Any young person protesting that has not served in the WOT obviously hates whatever they are protesting more than ISIS, if you believe that action and inaction has real meaning beyond words

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...



My name is Howard,
not like the duck
they say I'm stupid,
I don't give a fuck.

My dad was a Commie,
my mother a whore,
they kick me at Althouse,
and I plead for more.

I hate racist books
and statues and graves
when they dug up Lee's body
I yelled "Gaia saves!"

I'll burn some books
and some Trump voters too
cause fascist behavior
just gives me the flu.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Big Mike said...
Then can you explain why the police didn't stop it and disperse the marchers? But it had to have been a nonviolent march because they outnumbered the students they met on the quad by 8:1 and nothing happened. No punches thrown.


This video quite clearly shows that punches were thrown. Either the fascists are pussies or the students are very brave, using your calculus. It also shows the police dispersing the crowd. As I understand things, they didn't stop the march because they didn't know about it, because it was illegal. They are marching on UVa property so initially it would have only been university cops to respond.

Laslo Spatula said...

Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I was shot on the battlefield, and the moment is frozen in me, a permanent stutter of my heart. The projectile tore through my uniform and embedded itself in my Bible: God chose me at that moment, although for what I still do not understand, but am only thankful...

I approached the offending Union Soldier, and saw the fear in his eyes as I pointed my weapon at him. For the briefest moment I wondered if I could really pull the trigger, but the moment was fleeting and I shot him where he stood...

I expect he is in Heaven now, and if I were to meet him there perhaps we would realize that we were young men in the throes of a battle bigger than us. I wonder if those that killed and are killed today could expect the same commiseration...

I no loner see Nobility in my actions, but I do not also see malice: that, as good as any, is the difference I see in the country today...

I am Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I am Laslo.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

"Would you consider skipping my comments as you read these threads? I can't see any other remedy for your gullibility"

In other words, "Please stop beating me!"

Ha! Not a chance!

Howard said...

exile: Bravo... I must admit, I'm touched. You get me. Thanks

Sprezzatura said...

"In other words, "Please stop beating me!"

Ha! Not a chance!:"

What, I didn't know we were talkin' dominatrix stuff?

Not usually my thing, but I'm open.

walter said...

TTR,
Find me a bit where Michael K. calls you juvenile...NOT in response to one of your many ageist attacks.
............

Howard said...

I thought Parson Graham was a Byrd before a Flying Burrito Brother

Darrell said...

Maybe the Soros-paid antifa could take a rope and pull Ken Burns down. I could see that. Sure, Burns is a Lefty, but who has time for subtleties?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Michael said...
It was less a KKK type event than a European nationalist one.


You don't see scenes like this in Europe, at least not since the demise of the Nazis. The appeal of heavily armed knuckle-draggers walking down public streets has yet to be fully appreciated on the continent.

Big Mike said...

@ARM, your video shows the "good [sic] people of Charlottesville" started things as the marchers were leaving. Even neo-Nazis are allowed to defend themselves, but then, your IQ is unlikely to have two or more digits.

David Begley said...

Where is the metal plaque?

Anyone find it?

Laslo Spatula said...

Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I realize that any advice I have to offer this new world will fall on deaf ears: I fought on the losing side of a war, I did not believe the Negro was the equal of the White Man, though I wished him no ill will...

I am archaic: I realize I am most favorably remembered as unfortunate at best. Yet I see things in today's world that, under a Just God, would surely bring people shame in later years. Then again, maybe not: perhaps shame is now an emotion that is considered archaic, also....

I have much of which to be ashamed, but my knowledge of this strangely brings me peace: I lived life poor but not poorly, I believe...

I was never ashamed of being poor: my father never spoke harshly of the life he was given, and I did not believe it to be my place to start. However, I never took being poor as a sign of virtue, or a reason for hate. Many today do not honor their fathers or their forefathers, so I understand that there is little honor to expect...

I am Parson Graham, Confederate Ghost...

I am Laslo.

Jon Burack said...

How revealing this is as to the purification ritual aspect of this entire Confederate symbols business. It is mindboggling to me that Soglin did something as craven, cheap, disrespectful of these soldiers and contemptuous of the past as this. And without even giving Madisonians a chance to weigh in. I never saw this cemetery, but was aware of Camp Randall's history and that there were Confederates buried somewhere. It always seemed admirable in the extreme that Madison had honored them as it had, until now.

One profound irony is that Paul Soglin's career is based on his opposition to the Vietnam War as a student leader in the late 1960s. I was and still am proud to have opposed that war myself. We should never have entered it. However, leaders like Soglin were not simply opposed to our involvement. They WANTED Ho Chi Minh and the NLF to win, not merely settle things with the South. They worked very hard to ensure the victory of a Communist dictatorship every bit as enslaving and brutal as the Confederacy. Does Soglin ever have whisps of regret about the fact that his idealism had this dark side, just as the Confederates whose graves he has now traduced might well have had regrets about theirs had they been as lucky as he was to survive it all? I am reasonably sure Soglin has not had such regrets, or if he has I have never heard a peep out of him about them.

Howard said...

Thanks ARM. As much as I despise the neonatal Brownshits, I'm quite happy to live in a country where a group of armed citizens can waltz into a town square and spew their vile hate without firing a shot. Interestingly enough, there isn't a prominent anti 2nd Amendment narrative in this kerfuffle.

Sprezzatura said...

"Interestingly enough, there isn't a prominent anti 2nd Amendment narrative in this kerfuffle."

Ya may want to check in on Althouse's ACLU thread.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Big Mike said...
your video shows the "good [sic] people of Charlottesville" started things as the marchers were leaving.


I think your video interpretation skills might be a bit rusty, you and some others managed to convince yourself the other day that the murderer driving a car was actually a victim of the pedestrians.

Using the internal logic of this and your previous statements the UVa students were unusually brave. You should applaud those brave students for standing up to the fascist thugs.

Laslo Spatula said...

I hope Neil Young will remember a southern man don't need him around anyhow.

I am Laslo.

Fabi said...

We're seeing another side of Laslo this evening - eloquence.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Howard said...
I'm quite happy to live in a country where a group of armed citizens can waltz into a town square and spew their vile hate without firing a shot.


No they killed a woman with a car instead. Or maybe that was only the bad fascists, the 'fine people' fascists have yet to learn how to drive.

Big Mike said...

I think your video interpretation skills might be a bit rusty

Or you posted an edited video, you lying crap weasel. Should I believe you? Why would I do that?

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Sure, Burns is a Lefty, but who has time for subtleties?

8/17/17, 9:54 PM

Burns must be hard at work editing out the now un-PC parts of "The Civil War." That means taking out 100 minutes, but hey, Shelby Foote, ya gotta go. It was nice knowing you back in the day and you charmed the hell out of Yankee reviewers back then, but times they are a-changing. So long, fascist.

Cut all the letters from Confederate soldiers which made them sound like flawed, scared human beings. Cut out the letters from Union soldiers which expressed admiration for their enemies' courage. Cut out anything that smacks of conciliatory gestures or sympathy for the Southerners in Sherman's path.

PBS is a cash cow for Burns and Leftist Orthodoxy circa 2017 means that any positive mention of the lowliest Confederate soldier, any recognition of their humanity, means you are a Lost Cause/Confederate/Nazi!

No shades of gray! No quarter must be given to the Evil Bones in the Madison graveyard! Otherwise, you're hurting the blacks!

Howard said...

That's exactly my point ARM. Using a car is available to most plebs in most countries. Carrying locked and loaded AR-15's not so much. No shots fired by armed Nazi's = a good thing. Crazy asshole in a Charger = bad thing. It's illiberal to punish/blame groups rather than individuals.

Big Mike said...

No they killed a woman with a car instead

That's better. "Killed" instead of "murdered." Don't want to lead that lynch mob after all? If she is the woman who jumped on the back of Fields' car as he was accelerating in reverse, then she encompassed her own death. If she was part of the mob blocking the intersection then she came to Fourth and Water looking for trouble, and trouble she did find. Why do you mourn her, if she died looking for trouble?

Howard said...

NB. PBS is a liberal cash gerbil, Hollywood is a lefty cash cow. If I've told you once, I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate.

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

PBS made Burns a wealthy man.

Michael said...

ARM
I suggest you spend some time on the internet discovering European nationalist movements which likely include a number of what you call "knuckle draggers." I don't get the sense that you keep up with movements from Casa Pound, Golden Dawn, Jobbik,

http://blogs.ft.com/photo-diary/2014/06/golden-dawn-in-athens/

See google images for any of the groups noted.

Howard said...

Didn't your virginal mother teach you that jealousy is unbecoming, Wednesday?

exiledonmainstreet, green-eyed devil said...

Where do you get jealousy from my comment? I'm just stating a fact.

Stephen A. Meigs said...

It's well to look at the historical record of what happened. Alice Whiting Waterman, who was born in Baton Rouge but had lived her entire adult life (since age 10) in the north had apparently devoted much of her time and money caring for the graves. She was helped by Governor Lucius Fairchild, a Union war hero who lost an arm at Gettysburg. After her death, Union veterans Major F. W. Oakley (then clerk of the federal court for the Western District of Wisconsin) and Captain Hugh M. Lewis (who had served in the Iron Brigade like Gov. Fairchild) both were active in soliciting Confederate Veterans organizations to help continue the work of Mrs. Waterman and also in taking care of the Confederate graves directly.

The people who fought and lived through the war surely had more occasion to consider and gain understanding of the precise most appropriate rites appropriate to those killed from it, but maybe I can say something suggesting what they might have been trying to do. Not because I am trying to decide whether the plaque should be removed, which in my estimation would be ridiculous just from the standpoint that people who fought and suffered in the war or who were to all appearances unselfishly affected by the war in the actual time it happened busied themselves at personal sacrifice in caring for the graves in a such a way as very much suggests that it would be in a very wrong spirit to do such a thing. It's just that some people seem to think that the dead should have no say. The dead, being dead, have little power, excepting perhaps in some ethereal ghostly realm which I won't speculate upon. It's exceeding presumptuous to disrespect the dead so much as to think one knows better about what intimately concerns them and then act upon it.


Killing people is a trying thing that probably (in people with the capacity to have moral qualms) occasions many moral qualms even when you know that you were not the aggressor and that you were on the right side of a moral issue and your opponents were not. War may render such killing necessary, but I can well imagine after such killing that behaving in such a manner as to make clear to posterity the truth that it would have been much better had such killing been unnecessary has a sacred kind of appropriateness and accordingly it be a sacred employ taking such steps as providing at the least basic common dignities to the vanquished foes your side has killed. An ordinary dignity is allowing kin or comrades of the deceased to have freedom of expression when it comes to writing on tombstones, monuments, etc. to the deceased, unless perhaps something egregiously bad is put thereon.

(Information in first paragraph from December 24, 1901, Semi-Weekly Times-Democrat of New Orleans, quoting an unknown article in the Milwaukee Sentinel.)

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Michael said...
I don't get the sense that you keep up with movements from Casa Pound, Golden Dawn, Jobbik,


You know, that's right. Unlike you apparently.

Sprezzatura said...

When one monument goes down, another must rise:

"You know, Dick Cheney was once a student here at the University of Wisconsin—Madison. Have we ever done anything to honor him? I think it would be interesting to start a movement to have a monument to the man erected here in on campus. You could do a Michael Moore (or Uncle Jimbo) -style film project: Go around with a clipboard and try to get people to sign a petition."

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Big Mike said...
If she is the woman who jumped on the back of Fields' car as he was accelerating in reverse, then she encompassed her own death. If she was part of the mob blocking the intersection then she came to Fourth and Water looking for trouble, and trouble she did find. Why do you mourn her, if she died looking for trouble?


This is genuinely sick, but you know that. You are simply seeking attention.

Sprezzatura said...

Now Meade will have something to do while walking the dog.

Get a clipboard.


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