REPORTER: Senator McCain said that the alt-right is behind these and he linked that same group to those that perpetrated the attack in Charlottesville.Define your terms — it's a way of slowing down an interlocutor who's letting labels do too much of the work. Trump combines the demand for a definition of one thing that is said with calling attention to what is unsaid: You've got a label for one side but not for the other side.
TRUMP: Well, I don’t know. I can’t tell you. I’m sure Senator McCain must know what he is talking about. When you say the alt-right. Define alt-right to me. You define it. Go ahead. No, define it for me. Come on. Let’s go.
REPORTER: Senator McCain defined them as the same group —
[cross talk]
TRUMP: What about the alt-left that came charging at — Excuse me — What about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt? [cross talk] Let me ask you this: What about the fact that they came charging, that they came charging with clubs in their hands swinging clubs? Do they have any problem? I think they do. So, you know, as far as I’m concerned, that was a horrible, horrible day.
Perhaps reacting to that demand for definition, the NYT has "Alt-Right, Alt-Left, Antifa: A Glossary of Extremist Language" (by Liam Stack).
First up is the definition of "Alt-Right," and I think this definition pushes the word into a much uglier zone than some of the people who have popularized the term deserve:
The “alt-right” is a racist, far-right movement based on an ideology of white nationalism and anti-Semitism. Many news organizations do not use the term, preferring terms like “white nationalism” and “far right.”The NYT cedes the term to Richard B. Spencer, calling him "a leader in the movement," and noting his definition: “identity politics for white people.”
Let's compare what Milo Yiannopoulos writes in his book "Dangerous":
When we published [“An Establishment Conservative’s Guide to the Alt-Right" in March 2016], there had been little commentary, and no trace of an authoritative definition of the emerging alt-right. The media stuck to their usual hysterics that accompany the rise of any popular new right-wing movement.... [I]n its early days, the alt-right included a member base as diverse as disaffected Tea Party supporters and eighteen-year old meme addicts curious about a movement that defied so many taboos....That gives the history of the term and how it's changed over its brief lifespan, but it also verifies the NYT definition as the current definition.
The definition of alt-right has evolved since we penned our guide. White nationalists and Neo-Nazis took over, and people who initially enjoyed the label were being accused of sins they did not commit. This suited the media just fine... In effect, the extremist fringe of the alt-right and the leftist media worked together to define “alt-right” as something narrow and ugly, and entirely different from the broad, culturally libertarian movement Bokhari and I sketched out. This wanton virtue signaling was wholly unjust to young members of the movement who were flirting with dangerous imagery and boundary pushing....
Thanks to the willingness of old-school conservatives to march in lockstep with the mainstream media, the alt-right gradually came to be dominated not by friends of Pepe, but by actual white nationalists....
Let's move on to the NYT definition of "Alt-Left":
Researchers who study extremist groups in the United States say there is no such thing as the “alt-left.” Mark Pitcavage, an analyst at the Anti-Defamation League, said the word had been made up to create a false equivalence between the far right and “anything vaguely left-seeming that they didn’t like.”What's unorganic about the way the term arose? And why is Pitcavage the beginning and the end of the story of this word? Once we have left and right (terminology that goes back to the French Revolution), if you're going to put a prefix in front of one, it — organically! — suggests a corresponding prefix for the other, whether or not the people receiving the label enjoy its application to them.
Some centrist liberals have taken to using this term.
“It did not arise organically, and it refers to no actual group or movement or network,” Mr. Pitcavage said in an email. “It’s just a made-up epithet, similar to certain people calling any news they don’t like ‘fake news.’”
Notice how Trump introduced the word: "What about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right?" He's not accepting the organic quality of "alt-right," because he's distancing himself from the usage with "as you say." It's almost as though he's saying: Okay, if you're going to say "alt-right," I'm going to say "alt-left." (By the way, as Alt-house, I don't like the creeping pejorative nature of the prefix "alt-." Like I'm a very extreme house.)
The NYT piece proceeds to define "Alt-Light," which I'd never seen before. Is that organic? Is it sugar-free? Does it taste great or have fewer calories?
The “alt-light” comprises members of the far right who once fell under the “alt-right” umbrella but have since split from the group because, by and large, racism and anti-Semitism are not central to its far-right nationalist views, according to Ryan Lenz, the editor of Hatewatch, a publication of the Southern Poverty Law Center. Members of the alt-right mocked these dissidents as “the alt-light.”I see that there's a Wikipedia entry for "Alt-lite" ("also known as the 'alt-light'"). Excerpt:
“The alt-light is the alt-right without the racist overtones, but it is hard to differentiate it sometimes because you’re looking at people who sometimes dance between both camps,” he said.
Individuals associated with the alt-lite include Paul Joseph Watson, Milo Yiannopoulos, Gavin McInnes, Mike Cernovich and Jack Posobiec. Many such figures who are now identified with the alt-lite were previously associated with a broader conception of the "alt-right."Hmm. I'm dubious. If you want to distance yourself from alt-right because it's been dragged into an ugly place, why would you want a label that sounds almost the same? I note that Milo doesn't use the term (either spelling) in his book. It has an off-taste to me. I'm going to say: unorganic.
Posts
713 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 713 Newer› Newest»Brookzene said...
[It's pretty amusing when people who claim to be for uniting turn around and admit they dismiss the concerns of half the group. There's nothing like accidentally admitting your entire branding effort is a lie.]
This will be very effective to use against me as I campaign to become the president of all Americans.
It's also effective for discounting your opinions and value judgments to the appropriate level of "worthless".
sunsong said...
"I have already said I don't 'approve' of antifa...but Nazis and KKK are threatening one of the fundamental principles of our founding...that all are created equal. There is no equivalence.
And again, in this particular case they killed Heather and injured about 19 more."
And you won't stop until everyone you disagree with apologizes and accepts blame for what that disgusting kkk person did and gives you control over every aspect of their lives.
No matter how many times Trump calls him evil and denounces the violence in Charlottesville it doesn't matter. No matter how many times we say we don't support the white supremacists it isn't enough. You twist and lie until everyone you disagree with is evil and other.
You people don't give a shit about racism or truth or honesty. It is all about power over other people.
You are acting like a nazi sunsong.
But you showed you want to protect them
Where? I am curious as to what you believe I said that would mean I want to protect them...
"No, not the same, one side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry.
Morally different universe."
~ Mitt Romney
Leftist thugs are above criticism because Heather Heyer died for their sins.
"Where? I am curious as to what you believe I said that would mean I want to protect them..."
-- You're refusing to acknowledge antifa are just as big of a problem as Nazis. Remember: The Antifa shut down a peaceful parade. They go to colleges and beat people until speakers they don't like are withdrawn. They may not want to murder specific races; they just want to purge ideologies they don't like.
Jimmy Fallon addresses Charlottesville
Most of the Alt-left seems to be made up of the Jewish actors seen in Charlottesville clutching a Torah to their chests inciting the white supremacist to complain about Jerod Krusher's marriage to Ivanka, and calling for elimination of the filthy Jews who run the city. See HBO'S Vice News Tonight for a sample of this
Civil indifference is a big thing in making the system work.
Stare at a stranger in the subway and see what happens.
Blogger sunsong said...
"No, not the same, one side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry.
Morally different universe."
I remember when you people were calling Mitt Romney Hitler and accused him of giving people cancer.
Whoever is between leftists and power is a racist Hitler nazi kkk member. Crazy how you people act just like the most evil thing you can imagine and accuse others of being. The abyss is looking right at you sunsong.
You are making your disingenuousness too obvious. Or are you that stupid?
mockturtle said...I read yesterday that a mostly black group in Dallas is organizing to protect Confederate monuments from the antifas. Good for them. I'll bet if this happens it won't make the evening news.
Good for them? You're joking, right? They're ugly people, mockturtle, supporting an ugly monument promoting the ugliest of causes. They're intentionally allying themselves with a movement dedicated to hate and therefore violence against them is justified.
Skull crackin' time, sounds like.
You lot are on a terminal slide to separation. Historically speaking this extreme disjunct in world views, especially if it is backed by such massive economic interests, means you require either an episode of warfare to exterminate one side, or a split into two or more entities that can get along within themselves.
Achilles,
I voted for Romney!
r/v: Your namesake, Voltaire, was an acknowledged anti-Semite.
Dickin'Bimbos@Home said...
Sorry Sunsong - most of the Nazi Jew Haters I know about - they are all on the left.
8/16/17, 9:40 AM
Like the Women's March organizers who wouldn't let Zionists march with them.
Blogger sunsong said...
But you showed you want to protect them
Where?
I already told you. Your insistence people criticizing fascists [or criticizing you/the left for refusing to do so] must believe fascists and white nationalists are equivalent is false. People routinely criticize many things and it's absurd to conclude all criticism targets are equivalent. So where is this absurd assertion coming from?
To understand look at the logical result of the current circumstances with and without this obviously false assertion.
With it:
Only white nationalists can be criticized.
Without it:
White nationalists and left wingers engaging in political violence can be criticized.
Q: Why do people invoke this obviously wrong assertion?
A: To ensure left wing fascists are not criticized.
" (By the way, as Alt-house, I don't like the creeping pejorative nature of the prefix "alt-." Like I'm a very extreme house.)"
An alt-house is probably a "tiny house".
Rick,
Talk about a straw man! That is just tortured bull shit, imo
Blogger buwaya puti said...
"You lot are on a terminal slide to separation. Historically speaking this extreme disjunct in world views, especially if it is backed by such massive economic interests, means you require either an episode of warfare to exterminate one side, or a split into two or more entities that can get along within themselves."
The vast majority of Americans want to go to work, go home and have a beer, play with the kids and watch a football game.
There is a very small group that is pushing this crap and they own a media megaphone. The DC republicans used to be part of the small group.
Now the Americans that want to be left alone have someone fighting for them after decades of frustration. The side pushing the garbage is outnumbered and outgunned. It is only a question of how far they want to go. We aren't going to let them seize power.
Right wing hurt feelings and entitlements and all....
Black parents and Trayvon: legitimate concerns, should be listened to and believed.
White people and George Zimmerman, victim of Trayvon: right wing hurt feelings and entitlements and all, shouldn't be believed.
All of the talk about moral equivalence in this thread, and it goes by Brookzene's head like a lead balloon.
"By the way, as Alt-house, I don't like the creeping pejorative nature of the prefix "alt-." Like I'm a very extreme house."
But is it at the right end or the left end of the street? And don't try to weasel out of that by saying "It depends which way you're facing!!"
sparrow said...
Wow I agree with Unknown on that labelling point
8/16/17, 9:55 AM
I take it that was probably Vance, who sometimes forgets to sign his comments.
Unknown/Inga would never say something so sensible.
sunsong said...
Rick,
Talk about a straw man! That is just tortured bull shit, imo
The strawman is your insistence criticizing fascists and well as white nationalists is inappropriate. There is clearly nothing wrong with doing so and thus your strawman effort insisting on it is clearly to protect the fascists. There is no other explanation - other than that you're repeating the strawman your allies built I suppose. But knowingly or not you're protecting the fascists. It's hard to believe it isn't knowingly since you repeated it even after it being identified as false.
Blogger sunsong said...
Achilles,
"I voted for Romney!"
Sure.
You are still falsely attributing beliefs and motivations on a huge number of people in order to drive them out of the political spectrum and seize power over their lives.
A lot like what a minority of socialists did in Germany in the 1930s.
White people and George Zimmerman, victim of Trayvon: right wing hurt feelings and entitlements and all, shouldn't be believed.
All of the talk about moral equivalence in this thread, and it goes by Brookzene's head like a lead balloon.
As if alt-right sense of grievance and entitlements were only about the misuse of the Trayvon Martin case. Like we don't have the defense of neo-Nazis and white power trippers staring you in the face.
sunsong:
"Nazis and KKK are threatening one of the fundamental principles of our founding...that all are created equal. There is no equivalence.
"And again, in this particular case they killed Heather and injured about 19 more."
"They" didn't kill Heather, one single person who panicked and did something really stupid when he was trying to get out of town and a mob of lefties intentionally prevented him from escaping by blocking the only available road killed her. If you're going to make the people responsible for her death plural, you need to realize that everyone who shared responsibility with Fields for her death was on the left.
Also, it is dishonest to pretend that only Nazis and KKK are threatening the principle that all are created equal. There are plenty of black supremacists on the left, most obviously the Nation of Islam, who teach that whites are degenerate mutants created in a laboratory by a mad scientist. I find it deeply disappointing that so many politicans, including the Republicans, are condemning "white supremacy" when they should be condemning racial supremacy of all varieties.
And there are plenty of lefties - many of them white - who constantly sneer at whites in general, or white men, or old white men, or (especially popular today) cishet whites as pathetic and inferior human beings by definition - if they even admit that we're human. They really need to stop that shit.
It's also effective for discounting your opinions and value judgments to the appropriate level of "worthless".
This from a person constantly expressing his extreme hard-right opinions in this forum. Discount away, alt-rightie.
Brookzene said...
[It's pretty amusing when people who claim to be for uniting turn around and admit they dismiss the concerns of half the group."
This is amusing. The Democrats and their media allies have certainly shown they care about the concerns of the white working class, haven't they?
Why do you think those people voted for Trump? Oh, I know! It must be because of, wait for it, racism!
Those rednecks have no other worries or issues. Their concerns over jobs, schools, healthcare, cultural values, are all just a cover. They really voted for Trump because they hate diversity and people who look different than they do.
So who do you think is a bigger threat to the stability of our country, the white supremacists, or Antifa?
As bad as NAZI ideology is, it is a fringe group of very small numbers that does not endanger the United States, and certainly not existentially. Much of the ideology of the violent groups on the left is dangerous to us becuase it is widely supported by journalist, media, academia, and even K-12 educators, as well as many politicians. It's the difference between a virus in the laboratory and one running rampant among the population. This ideology openly calls for overthrow of many of our constitutional protections and forced compliance with their values using violence if necessary.
But in this specific case of Charlottesville there is no evidence that the "alt-right" (and these people are not the same as alt-right by the anti-GOPe definition) had any intention of engaging in violence with their demonstration. Especially the much feared "militia" acted quite peaceful and obedient to the authorities, even after the "antifa" college crowd faction attacked.
There is much "fake news" and intentionally bad reporting going on here.
Brookzene said...
Like we don't have the defense of neo-Nazis and white power trippers staring you in the face.
People aren't defending Nazis, they're ensuring
(1) non-Nazi ideas aren't included in the Nazi label because they understand this is the left's (including your) primary goal, and
(2) the non-Nazi right isn't slimed when the left pivots to "this is just a slight extension of right ideology" by demonstrating the left would be similarly discredited by that same type of extension.
But again note brooks has let the mask slip demonstrating his goal has nothing to do with uniting. Like most who pose as moderates it's a brand used to make their hateful tactics more effective.
Brookzene,
"Like we don't have the defense of neo-Nazis and white power trippers staring you in the face."
Yeah, here's the thing. I hate neo-Nazis and white power trippers as much as you do. No one I respect has anything good to say about them.
I hate Stalinists and violent leftists almost as much as I hate neo-Nazis and white power-trippers - and lots and lots of people I otherwise respect want us to know that they're acting out of good motives, they're idealists, they are (as the NYT reporter put it, climbing down from calling them hate-filled) "fighting hate." And when one of them does something truly beyond the pale (assassinate a cop, shoot a Republican congressman, murder his neighbor), they all assure me that's a one-off and only a partisan hack would try to make them representative of the broader left, who are always and everywhere the good guys.
I'm more worried about the violent left because they have a lot more top-cover.
sunsong said... There is NO moral equivalence between Nazis and those who oppose them!
A false statement, sadly. Stalin is certainly an exception.
But that in no way makes them equivalent to Nazis and Nazi sympathizers...who in this particular case killed an innocent woman and injured about 19 others. There is NO equivalence.
This is nonsense squared. Do you accept the blame for the nut who shot Steve Scalise and tried to kill a whole group of Republicans ?
If not, why not ? He was a Bernie bro, just like the that mentally disturbed kid who ran his car into the mob blocking that street. Did you hear the audio. "What street? Our street." That women was not an "innocent bystander." She was a DSA and IWW activist as they and her mother acknowledge.
ANTIFA and real Nazis, not kids who know nothing about real Nazis, are exactly the mirror image of each other,
Not "equivalent." They are mirror images and you and the left will not admit it.
The destruction of the Confederate monuments is pure racism. The whole thing is coming from BLM and its allies in the Soros and "Tides Foundation" funded organizations.
A lot of ANTIFA is communists and anarchists but I'll bet they are getting f=some Soros funding, too.
Like we don't have the defense of neo-Nazis and white power trippers staring you in the face.
That is your assertion, not mine. A bunch of lunatics show up and protest a statue being removed, and somehow they're defending me?
All of your pretty prose, yet you don't have the sense and logic of a gnat. Nowhere in this thread has anyone defended neo-Nazis and white power trippers.
Brookzene said...
This from a person constantly expressing his extreme hard-right opinions in this forum.
Actually I'm a libertarian I'm just adamantly against the far left. Don't worry if you can't understand the difference, you're so far left the difference won't mean anything to you.
As far as offensive symbols go:
Has anyone seen any hammer-and-sickle banners, smash-the-state signs, and other symbols that might make people wonder just how 'non-violent' the Antifas in Charlottesville were? I've seen very few in the press coverage, but I'm pretty sure they were there, and that the press is covering for them.
Jeet Heer of the New Republic reported that the dead woman and all of the (most seriously?) wounded were IWW (Wobblies), IS, and DSA. Were they armed and violent? Film of the incident shows that most of those in critical condition were likely the masked men who swarmed Fields' car immediately after the collision and started smashing it with baseball bats, who were run over when put the car in reverse and gunned the motor to escape. Wouldn't we normally by this time have a list of names and faces of the injured, with sad stories about their innocent peaceful lives? I haven't seen any of those. Is that because they're mostly violent thugs and their friends in the press wants to make sure we never know that?
So who do you think is a bigger threat to the stability of our country, the white supremacists, or Antifa?
Only speaking for myself here: the latter. The former is a small bunch of malcontents who should have been ignored; the latter is a burgeoning group of young, communist-funded malcontents who are currently twice as violent and just as committed to destabilizing our country, if not moreso.
How otherwise intelligent people can't see that is beyond me.
Yes Voltaire was at war with most religions, but particularly critical and intolerant towards Jews;I don't hold his views in this area, but I admire the Enlightenment and English Deism, which Voltaire did embrace, which pushed to change the legal and economic status of the Jews among other things.
Yeah, here's the thing. I hate neo-Nazis and white power trippers as much as you do. No one I respect has anything good to say about them.
Respect. Your full argument is not a bad place to begin from your side.
I think I'm beginning to realize why so many on the left can't see that defending the rights of Nazis and KKK to demonstrate peacefully with a permit is NOT the same thing as defending their disgusting beliefs.
It's because the left will only defend your right to speak if they agree with what you're saying: if you don't, it's perfectly OK to shut you up, with violence if necessary. They literally can't see the distinction that seems to obvious to the right.
bagoh20 said...
As bad as NAZI ideology is, it is a fringe group of very small numbers that does not endanger the United States, and certainly not existentially."
You wouldn't know that if you watched and believed CNN, MSNBC, etc.
A black coworker was all aflutter yesterday because apparently Nazis are on the march and are going to get her. I said, "Have you ever actually seen any Nazis marching around here?" "No." "Neither have I." "Well, worry about them when they actually show up."
This same woman had a nephew who was shot in a drive-by 3 years ago - killed by a stray bullet from a gun fired by some black gangbanger.
Nazis are not her problem.
All the media does now is scare people with imaginary fears ("Global warming! The Handmaid's Tale! Nazis!") while ignoring very real threats.
I'm pretty sure this is not how a responsible press should operate in a free and democratic society.
The left need racism to exist.
The left need the "ism" or they would wither.
Only speaking for myself here: the latter. The former is a small bunch of malcontents who should have been ignored; the latter is a burgeoning group of young, communist-funded malcontents who are currently twice as violent and just as committed to destabilizing our country, if not moreso.
You're defending the neo-Nazis.
I Callahan,
"How otherwise intelligent people can't see that is beyond me."
This is all they know. The problem is the education system that most go through, followed by the media that most of them follow.
It's important to make valid distinctions.
1. There is a distinction between Nazis of 1941 and neo-Nazis today. The former were mortal enemies against whom our fathers and grandfathers courageously battled 70 years ago. The latter are mostly powerless, societal rejects like poor young James Fields, who would be better off, going to junior college and joining the chess club.
2. There is a distinction between the KKK of 1963 and the KKK today. The former were a violent arm of the Democratic Party in the South who hated blacks, Jews and Catholics and caused violence. The latter are mostly powerless losers, who espouse bad ideas.
3. There is a distinction between peaceful assembly by permit and a violent mob confrontation. The former used to be actively defended by the ACLU (see Nazis marching in Skokie), the latter seems to be the modus operandi by Antifa and BLM when they get upset (see Milo Y at UC Berkeley, see Ferguson riots)
4. There is a distinction between white guys who oppose the removal of Confederate statues on historical grounds and neo-Nazi rabble-rousers. The former have an absolute solid position, and shouldn't be lumped in with the latter -- even if both voted for Trump.
5. Finally, there is a distinction between supporting the ideas of Nazism and supporting the Constitutional principle of Free Speech . The former is beyond the pale (in my book), but the latter, does include allowing Nazis to exercise their 1st Amendment rights -- free from violent disruption.
Personally, I wish the Nazis and the KKK would simply fade away. Their history is horrid, their ideas discredited. But a few remnants remain, and they do have the right to express opinions (however distasteful), just as any other group. This means marching and demonstrating. And, No, you're not allowed to punch a Nazi, just because he's a Nazi. That makes you a Nazi, sorry.
In 2017, Antifa is the new Nazi.Look at how they ACT, not what they say. They violently suppress speech they don't like, using violent means.
I am more than willing to discredit the Neo-Nazis -- will the Left start to discredit Antifa?
Brookzene (11:14pm):
Saying X is worse than Y is not defending Y. Saying murder is an even worse crime than rape is not defending rape, and only very stupid people will say it is. I've had people say exactly that: they were mostly too stupid to be argued with. I'm hoping you're not.
Nowhere in this thread has anyone defended neo-Nazis and white power trippers.
8/16/17, 11:05 AM
Not one person that I can see.
Apparently that is not enough for Brookzene. My uncle was fought the Nazis and was wounded at the Battle of the Bulge. My family wasn't here at the time of the Civil War but if they were, the men would have been on the Union side, since they lived only in northern states.
So I hate Nazis too. I also hate Commies. I have relatives who endured Communist rule.
I despise totalitarians of any stripe. Brookzene's side doesn't mind the right sort of totalitarians.
I wonder how much Soros money which was made taking money from Jews he turned over to the Nazis is going to Antifa right now.
" There is a distinction between Nazis of 1941 and neo-Nazis today. The former were mortal enemies against whom our fathers and grandfathers courageously battled 70 years ago. The latter are mostly powerless, societal rejects like poor young James Fields, who would be better off, going to junior college and joining the chess club.
2. There is a distinction between the KKK of 1963 and the KKK today. The former were a violent arm of the Democratic Party in the South who hated blacks, Jews and Catholics and caused violence. The latter are mostly powerless losers, who espouse bad ideas"
No kidding. Brookzene and sunsong are acting like the antifas were facing off against Nathan Bedford Forrest and Heinrich Himmler.
Dr Weevil said...
And there are plenty of lefties - many of them white - who constantly sneer at whites in general, or white men, or old white men, or (especially popular today) cishet whites as pathetic and inferior human beings by definition - if they even admit that we're human. They really need to stop that shit.
I don't want them to stop. Imagine all the effort someone would have to go through if they stopped self-identifying.
r/v says: Yes Voltaire was at war with most religions, but particularly critical and intolerant towards Jews;I don't hold his views in this area, but I admire the Enlightenment and English Deism, which Voltaire did embrace, which pushed to change the legal and economic status of the Jews among other things.
And the only reason I pointed out his anti-Semitism is to illustrate that there are no persons in history without features we would consider 'flawed' by today's ideological purity standards. I believe strongly in individual rights and responsibilities and strongly object to categorization by the smug but distressingly stupid media pundits.
Brookzene said...You're defending the neo-Nazis.
Oh don't be coy Brookzene; that person IS a neo-Nazi.
Mitt Romney said it best: One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.
If you're not with Antifa and the Left then you ARE a racist, bigoted, Nazi. Anyone defending a Nazi is a Nazi. Anyone not attacking a Nazi is defending a Nazi and is, therefore, a Nazi.
It's time for clear language here, and action.
No kidding. Brookzene and sunsong are acting like the antifas were facing off against Nathan Bedford Forrest and Heinrich Himmler.
It's all about feeling empowered, exiled. A cause. They don't really care what cause they rally 'round so long as it makes them feel good.
"You're defending the neo-Nazis."
Defending someone's right to speak and not be attacked is the same as endorsement of their views?
Of course you do. You are an idiot. You can't seem to figure out that none of us agree with the views of the white supremacists and continuously try to force us to take responsibility for a group that was organized by an obama supporter.
You are an idiot and or you are acting just like the Nazis.
Of course I embrace the power of and.
"Communist" and "socialist" also are discredited terms now.
Note that the "Labour" parties around the world have mostly disclaimed the "socialist" label and now claim to be just "social-democrats."
Even the Chinese government have gone from advocating "communism" to a very free-wheeling capitalism, but are still "Communist," i.e., if you oppose them, they will still beat you up, and if you persist, they will still kill you.
Saying X is worse than Y is not defending Y. Saying murder is an even worse crime than rape is not defending rape,
Saying robbery by X is worse than murder by Y is defending X.
Saying the counterprotesters in Charlottsville (noted by WSJ as including large numbers of ordinary lefties, clergy, and run-of-the mill nonviolent activists) were worse than the white nationalists and neo-Nazis is defending the neo-Nazis. It sure is.
Saying they were both wrong but Heather Heyer was worse than James Fields is defending James Field.
You are on the wrong side, and Americans of all divisions are telling you so. It's not just me.
The left need racism to exist.
The left need the "ism" or they would wither.
Exactly. If there weren't neo-Nazis, the left would invent them.
exiledonmainstreet said... Brookzene and sunsong are acting like the antifas were facing off against Nathan Bedford Forrest and Heinrich Himmler.
Some people need to believe they are heroes to give their life meaning, and bigger enemies mean bigger heroes.
I like the physical symmetry of alt-right and alt-left. Makes sense to me. It's just the way the physical world works. And we are talking about people, not ideas.
No kidding. Brookzene and sunsong are acting like the antifas were facing off against Nathan Bedford Forrest and Heinrich Himmler.
Ask Heather Heyer and her parents what they thought as her life was snuffed out.
Ask Heather Heyer and her parents what they thought as her life was snuffed out.
8/16/17, 11:38 AM
By a powerless loser.
What did that Serbian kid who was beaten to death with hammers by a crowd of blacks after Ferguson think as his life was snuffed out?
You are on the wrong side, and you are killing your brand.
@singsong: Today's headlines are just Charlottesville. Tomorrow's headline will be another antifa beat down or worse -- another BLM-inspired murder of police.
Can't you see the symmetry?
It's not hard, people:
Alt-right: "Western ideology that believes in science, history, reality, and the right of a genetic nation to exist and govern itself in its own interests."
Alt-light: Civic nationalists who reject racial or ethnic nationalism.
Antifa: International socialists, AKA communists or Alt-left, who support world-wide communism under one authority.
Alt-Right is anti-racist by definition. They want to preserve the genetic identity of themselves and others. Antifa/Alt-left want to destroy genetic identity of everyone.
The "Unite the Right" people in Charlottesville were mostly Gen Y/Millennials. They were raised in a post-Constitutional U.S. and taught to reject our founding ideology. Many of them (mistakenly, IMO) think that it doesn't matter how they get to their white state so long as they get there. If it requires socialism, then so be it. They've been indoctrinated all their life that socialism is good anyway.
I'll bet some of these so-called Neo Nazi people are leftists who hate Jews.
"as Alt-house, I don't like the creeping pejorative nature of the prefix "alt-." Like I'm a very extreme house."
Extreme suggests on a continuum.The original definition of Alt-right recognized a group greater a threat to lefty statists and the bloated millstone of the Federal government. Better to redefine those dangerous folks away by twisting the term to mean Nazis, white supremacists etc...who have been around long before the "alt-right"
Bill Ayers was/is alt-left.
Voltaire was a close friend by corresondence with those notable liberal social reformers Catherine the Great, Empress of all the Russias, and Friedrich der Grosse, King of Prussia and, incidentally, a recipient of considerable largesse from their and other royal establishments.
By a powerless loser.
Heh. Again, ask her and her family how "powerless" he was.
sunsong said...
I dare you who are claiming 'moral equivalence' to watch this and tell me it is ok with you...
It starts out with the "Jews will not replace us" non-quote. So it's fake but oh so satisfying.
"Equivalence?" Of course not. The antifa assholes are worse than any other group I can think of right now, except perhaps the MSM, the latter because of their lock-step ubiquity.
"Tomorrow's headline will be another antifa beat down or worse -- another BLM-inspired murder of police."
-- There was a brutal murder of a Republican councilmen that barely made the news. I do not expect antifa violence to make the front page, at least, not to the same extent that the Charlottesville fiasco did.
I despise actual Nazis and actual Communists. And, Yes, they fought each other.
Some have gone so far as to call Voltaire a "lickspittle" and a "toady."
I remember a similar media outrage over the shooter who sought out Republicans to kill. Oh right...
Hey is Scalise available to comment on this?
Brookzene, shouldn't you be asking about the "root causes?" Shouldn't we be trying to understand these young white men who feel so hopeless they are driven to identify with a political movement, which, for all intents and purposes, died a hard death in 1945?
That's what the Left always asks us to do when Muslims run over people in Nice or set off pressure cookers at the Boston Marathon.
I have listened to the audio and watched the video several times today and I'd like to apologize for asserting he said "us."
At the time I was convinced that what he'd said but it's pretty clear to me now that he doesn't say this .
Sorry for that, folks
So Brookzene is even stupider than I thought. I never said all of the protesters in Charlottesville were worse than the Nazis, just the ones with the masks and the baseball bats who think they're allowed to violently attack people who aren't committing any crime. Being a Nazi is not a crime in America. There is no political party, no matter how extreme, crazy, or downright disgusting, that is banned in America. And that's fortunate for some on the left, who have opinions every bit as loathsome as Nazism.
Don't believe me? It's just been reported that the woman arrested for vandalizing the statue in Durham (the one who put the rope around it) is a member of a Maoist group that supports North Korea. There is nothing illegal about being the kind of asshole who supports North Korea, which anyone not blinded by bigotry can see is every bit as disgusting as being a Nazi, and considerably more traitorous when the U.S. is in danger of war with North Korea. Of course, she wasn't arrested for being a disgusting Maoist moron and a traitor, she was quite rightly arrested for vandalism and maybe rioting. I hope they make her and the other vandals pay every penny it costs to re-erect the statue, and then pay again if they or someone else takes it down again.
Moral paragon Eric Holder says:
This is a time to choose sides-simple as that. Who do you stand with? What do you truly value? There is a right side and an immoral one.
See? Very simple. If you don't stand with Antifa then you're on the immoral side. The immoral side is the side of Nazis, so if you don't support Antifa you're a Nazi. Straightforward.
You're defending the neo-Nazis.
No, I'm not. I can call one out as being more dangerous than the other without "defending" the other.
I laugh when progressives talk about grey areas, when they're as binary as people can be.
I remember a similar media outrage over the shooter who sought out Republicans to kill. Oh right...
Hey is Scalise available to comment on this?
In fact I do remember how all Americans were behind condemning this disgusting act of violence. I don't remember anybody saying, "Well yes but the ballplayer/politicians were even worse than the shooter." And I don't remember the president fucking up the whole response to the shooting, and giving comfort to the shooter, the way he gave comfort to the neo-Nazis here.
You're just on the wrong side.
Heh. Again, ask her and her family how "powerless" he was.
8/16/17, 11:43 AM
Those blacks in Ferguson were pretty powerless too, until they picked up hammers and smashed in a white guy's skull, just because he was white.
The baseball field shooter was just another elderly hippie and Bernie Bro loser until he tried to murder a bunch of people due to their politics.
You wish to say Fields is somehow worse than they are. I say they're all horrible.
Political violence is always wrong no matter who does it. It's not OK when they do it for reasons you like. The antifas and BLM people who engage in it are as bad as the Nazis.
Why is that so friggin' difficult for you to get through your head?
I Callahan:
"progressives . . . they're as binary as people can be".
Progressives:
You take that back right now, you lying cishet bigot! Wait, you're not talk about gender? OK, maybe you have a point.
The people on the baseball field were just there to play baseball. They did not show up at an anti-Trump rally looking to bust heads.
Saying robbery by X is worse than murder by Y is defending X.
One guy murdered someone. One guy. The group didn't. So stop the comparison.
Saying the counterprotesters in Charlottsville (noted by WSJ as including large numbers of ordinary lefties, clergy, and run-of-the mill nonviolent activists) were worse than the white nationalists and neo-Nazis is defending the neo-Nazis. It sure is.
You've injected additional data into the mix. I can do that too. There were also people protesting the taking down of the statue that were NOT members of the Nazi party or the KKK. See how easy that is?
That aside - it's a straw man. Antifa is a bigger threat than the KKK/Neo-Nazis because of their cultural impact and sheer numbers. And pointing that out is NOT defending either side. There are more numbers than 1's and zeroes.
Saying they were both wrong but Heather Heyer was worse than James Fields is defending James Field.
Which no one did. Anywhere.
You are on the wrong side, and Americans of all divisions are telling you so. It's not just me.
There goes the binary thing again. Keep digging.
I laugh when progressives talk about grey areas, when they're as binary as people can be.
Helluva time for you guys to find that moral relativism is de rigueur.
Very convenient for the defense of the indefensible.
In Europe in the last century, the commies color was red and the fascists color was black. Wearing a colored kerchief around your neck was enough of a uniform to be identified and shot by the other side.
I Callahan said...
I laugh when progressives talk about grey areas, when they're as binary as people can be.
If a criticism of the right requires nuance, they're nuanced. If a criticism of the right required binary, they're binary. If a criticism of the right requires America be great then America is great. If a criticism of the right requires America be evil then America is evil.
Surely they're flexible, but the result is a bit of a mess. Can anyone help find the common principle?
I note from their published comments that many GOPe are confused. Kasich and McConnell, for example, join the Democrats and the leftmedia in supporting the notion that ideas are more dangerous than violence. This is what empowers the violent alt-left supported brownshirts of Antifa, BLM, etc. - fascism in action, not in thought. This is what the GOPe does: empowers the left.
I will oppose with my voice, my money and, where legally possible, my vote, any Congressional Republican up for election in 2018 who supports the "leadership" of McConnell or Ryan. Trump would be wise to do the same.
Wow I was away for a bit and missed a lot...
A couple of people responded to a comment I made earlier:
CStanley said...
It seems to me though that MLK gave people a nonviolent path to support civil rights, so that they could be both opposed to the Black Panther militism but for civil rights for black Americans. Unfortunately we now have DJT, not an MLK type leader, trying to point the way forward. I hope someone else will step up.
8/16/17, 8:50 AM
You have this exactly backwards. Trump did stake out the position you can oppose both white nationalists and left wing fascism and is thus emulating MLK in that regard (albeit in his typically ham-handed way). Meanwhile the left and much of the establishment right is attacking him for asserting that we should oppose both.
I guess I wasn't clear. I agree, Trump has stated the way forward which marginalized violent elements on both sides. What I meant was that Trump doesn't have the respect of people who need to hear this message.
That aside - it's a straw man. Antifa is a bigger threat than the KKK/Neo-Nazis because of their cultural impact and sheer numbers
The link you omitted but allude to with "cultural impact" is their institutional support. Government, academia, NGOs and the media support and protect these numbnuts - and will continue to do so until such support endangers them.
That's what we have to work on - making those who support them pay a price to isolate them. It would be even better if we could return those institutions to non-partisan control but that's probably a lost cause.
Brookzene said...
Only speaking for myself here: the latter. The former is a small bunch of malcontents who should have been ignored; the latter is a burgeoning group of young, communist-funded malcontents who are currently twice as violent and just as committed to destabilizing our country, if not moreso.
You're defending the neo-Nazis.
8/16/17, 11:14 AM
Um, no. He is calling out the antifa for their violence and destruction. He is not excusing the excesses of other ideologies or groups but you knew that and just chose to ignore it because your arguments and feelz don't work otherwise.
Besides, as a famous orator one said, "We can absorb a terrorist attack. We'll do everything we can to prevent it, but even a 9/11, even the biggest attack ever . . . we absorbed it and we are stronger," Obama reportedly said.
In the face of that what are a few dozen Nazis? In comparison to the enormous hordes of antifa that raze entire towns and campuses, what are a few dozen Nazis? Isn't the left always screaming to put things into perspective? What are a few dozen Nazis in the face of "global warming"?
You're just on the wrong side.
Nope, I'm on the side that can reason logically. Most people cannot. They have the ability, but either were never taught to use it, or choose not to. Humans are emotional beings, and emotion clouds reason and logic. And every time the minority of people have called out the emotional side for making bad decisions, they've been correct on the outcome. Every time.
So I'll make a prediction. If your side wins this, and the KKK and Neo-Nazi's are never allowed to march or protest again, there will be other groups who'll be persecuted. Those will be run-of-the-mill conservatives, and they'll be treated like you're treating the KKK and the Nazis. And then we'll pick up speed sliding down that slippery slope.
All that aside - I'd rather be on the logical side than what the emotional side calls the "right" side. Your feelings may tell you you're correct, but in the long run, we're all going to suffer for what the "right" side agitated for. So be careful what you wish for.
One guy murdered someone. One guy. The group didn't. So stop the comparison.
Here's the deal, so you can think about this straight. And because you won't see what everyone else sees.
It's not just some random coincidence that a guy like James Fields came out of the gaggle of murderous neo-Nazis with their white power salutes, their guns, their "Jews won't replace us."
Everyone else can see the effect, and what the f**k the cause was.
You guys in the alt-right-House commentariot? Not so much.
Very convenient for the defense of the indefensible.
I'm defending the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution. You find that indefensible.
I take it that the KKK and the Nazis don't so much have ideas as resentments. That's where they get new support from.
Resentments which the left is anxious to increase.
Blogger rhhardin said...
"Nazi Germany was sort of okay until Kristalnacht, when it becamse obvious that things were not going to go well. Until then it was all talk of decency and goodness. Ideals in the air. Sort of like today but with the sides reversed."
But the sides aren't reversed - just the labels. I see little difference between the Nazi (National Socialist German Workers Party) fascists and the Antifa fascists, except for maybe a preference for international socialism over national socialism (ok - that was one of the big differences between the Nazis and the communists at the time, who believed in international socialism). Techniques used by the Antifa fascist thugs differ very little from those used by Hitler's Brown Shirts against their political opponents.
Nope, I'm on the side that can reason logically. Most people cannot.
Self-important. Self-serving. Sounds like you're falling back on arguments that worked in grade school. You must be more foolish than I assumed.
I've seen blacks behave like southern gentlemen.
I'm trying to think who the author was - anyway he said that nothing exceeds the kindness of old black women.
The southern way of life.
Brookzene said...
You are on the wrong side, and you are killing your brand."
Remind me how well the Democrats are doing at the local, state and national level outside of California and New York.
I'm defending the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution. You find that indefensible.
IMO this is at the core of where you are going off the tracks. There is nothing wrong with ensuring the right of Nazis to protest in accord with the Constitution. The ACLU, god bless them, defended the rights of these white nationalists to do that, and I support that.
That's not the issue. That's just where you are stuck.
Brookzene, your arguments wouldn't have worked in grade school.
Particularly "most Americans agree with ME so there!"
Even if that is true (and I have serious doubts about that), apparently your Mommy never asked you, "If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?"
In other words, stop being such a conformist tool.
Here's the deal, so you can think about this straight. And because you won't see what everyone else sees. It's not just some random coincidence that a guy like James Fields came out of the gaggle of murderous neo-Nazis with their white power salutes, their guns, their "Jews won't replace us." Everyone else can see the effect, and what the f**k the cause was.
"It's not just a random coincidence that a guy like Micah Xavier Johnson came out of the gaggle of murderous BLM activists with their "Pigs In A Blanket, Fry ‘Em Like Bacon" chants, and "F**k the Police" chants. Those with Reason and logic can see the effect, and what the f**k the cause was.
See how easy that is? Brookzene wasn't on the scene when that happened, but somehow I don't think you had the same case of high dudgeon then as you do now.
Here's the difference: we think BOTH of the above examples are equally evil. Your side says one is more evil, and one is less evil. Like I said above - I don't expect logic from humanity anymore, so I don't expect a logical response.
In the summer of 2016, at the height of the public outrage over the high-profile police shootings of Alton Sterling and Philando Castile, black nationalist Micah Xavier Johnson took his sniper rifle and shot and killed five Dallas police officers. President Obama's responses to the sequence of events was widely praised by the press.
Responding to the outrage over Sterling and Castile, President Obama said their deaths were "not isolated incidents" but were "symptomatic" of a criminal justice system plagued by "racial disparities."
____________________
Maybe the left can point us to their criticisms of Obama excusing murder by addressing something other than the murders in his comments.
No? You mean this is another principle they don't believe invented solely because it's a useful cudgel in this specific instance? Say it ain't so!
Self-important. Self-serving
This from the guy who says he's on the "right" side.
Irony meter is pulverized.
"No, not the same, one side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universe."
~ Mitt Romney
I am glad sunsong brought this quote into the argument.
What I find very distressing about this quote is it provably false. The first part about the Nazis is accurate. The second part is simply not true. I'm sure there were some counter-protesters that this would be a good description, but it certainly does not describe BLM (racist), antifa (using violence to shut up people you disagree with is advanced bigotry), and communists (a philosophy with atrocities nearly comparable to Nazism and in some cases arguably worse such as Pol Pot). I get the feeling that Romney has no idea what happened, or he has decided that violence against Nazis in violation of their civil rights is perfectly fine by him. Or maybe Republicans now just impulsively surrender whenever the going gets tough regardless of the facts.
I am becoming convinced this is going to end very badly.
Brookzene, This is is an honest question, and I hope you respond honestly. Is it your position that any denunciation of white supremacy that also includes a denunciation of Antifa is a non denunciation of white supremacy?
That's not the issue. That's just where you are stuck.
Oh, but you're flat out wrong here. Antifa thugs descended on this protest and it got ugly. The mayor and the governor both ordered the cops to stand down and let this all happen. So I'd say the original protesters have a valid first amendment complaint when they, by agency, allowed a third group to come in and shut down the march. If this had been 1965, and Selma Alabama, and the sides switched, I know your side would not be ignoring this part.
So no, their first amendment rights were NOT protected.
Yes, the ACLU did defend their rights to march. But whoever (mayor or governor?) ordered the police to stand down, whoever did not insist that they keep the two groups apart, did not defend the Constitution. It looks to me like the Democrats in charge wanted violence, as long as they thought their side would do more damage to the outnumbered Nazis. It amazes me that so many on my Twitter feed are demanding resignations in Washington, but no one seems to think anyone in Charlottesville or Richmond needs to resign.
If the police had been doing their job, S. 4th Street would have been open, and Fields could have driven right out of town at 25 mph after he and his disgusting buddies were ordered to cancel their demonstration. He was right where he was supposed to be, doing what he had been ordered to do. But the police did not keep the crowds on the sidewalks, didn't even insist that the lefties go home when the demo was cancelled - the crowd Fields ran into was still heading towards the park with the Lee statue, presumably to gloat, and intentionally blocking the streets shouting "We own the streets".
Lefties who insist on assigning the blame entirely to Fields are being dishonest. Everyone knows that a trapped rat is dangerous, and that you should always leave a dangerous animal a route to escape if you want to avoid a fight. Fields was (is) a rat, but he was a trapped rat, with nowhere to go, because the lefties thought trapping and threatening their enemies was a good idea.
Humans are emotional beings, and emotion clouds reason and logic. And every time the minority of people have called out the emotional side for making bad decisions, they've been correct on the outcome. Every time.
You are seriously flattering yourself here, with what additionally precedes and what follows. As humans we need to incorporate both reason and *emotion* (or "feeling" or the "non-rational") into our assessments; both sides help make the totality of our humanity. People who think they are only one or the other or who believe that one is obviously better than the other are wrong, and are restricting what's truly human about us all.
Myself, I always say "let's run this through the computer first, and see what reason says. But let's not be afraid to look at other non-rational considerations as well. Sometimes they work better, sometimes they don't. But don't be a slave to either.
ymmv.
You know, we could probably get along over time and a couple of beers or coffees or tokes. Peace. We're both Americans even if we're sometimes harsh.
""Jews won't replace us."
This is a leftist lie. I've listened to the audio. The chant was "You won't replace us."
Now, there may have been a few Nazis who said the other but it was not that many and to ignore the majority is a lie.
The purpose of the chant is the very active movement on the left to eliminate the white males. Not just the "Dead White Males: that built our civilization but the present young white men under siege in the universities.
"But let's not be afraid to look at other non-rational considerations as well."
Yes. That;s how we get "Herstory" instead of History and "Feminist Math."
"One guy murdered someone. One guy."
Maybe. Maybe not. "Murdered" implies guilt as determined by a jury of his peers. Legally, self-defense negates "murder", so, if the driver manages to prove (or, very probably, more accurately, VA fails to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt) that he acted in reasonable belief of imminent death or great bodily injury (typically including broken bones), then the homicide was not "murder" and he was not a "murderer". Not surprised, of course, that the left (including the MSM, of course) are acting here as judge, jury, and if they could pull it off, executioner, glossing over this legal technicality. Makes a nice talking point, and, in the echo chamber of the MSM, increases the likelihood of the preferred verdict.
This from the guy who says he's on the "right" side.
I'm not afraid to say what's right or wrong when it's obvious, unlike you moral relativists.
The difference between us is if it's right, I believe it. Apparently with you and so many here is that they believe it, so it's right.
As with all events, how a person interprets what's happened over the last few days seems to depend on their own filters, how they see the world and humanity. And right now there seems to be two main filters, like Scott Adams two movies analogy after the election last November.
I understand my own filter, but I'd like to understand the filter Lefties are looking through at the moment. I get that they view Trump's comments, specifically his lack of a strong and clear explicit denouncement in a timely fashion along with his daring to draw equivalencies between the white nationalists and antifa protesters, as horrible and destructive. I don't agree with that, but I get that. But I don’t fully understand how they currently view their fellow Americans in general.
I guess I’m wondering what people on the left believe will happen because of Trump’s comments? What do they imagine would be the worst outcome? For an extreme example, do they believe that regular middle class white people are going to suddenly start lynching black people all over the place because of something Trump said? Do they imagine that suddenly the ranks of the white nationalists are going to swell tremendously because of all this? Do they really view the common American as one wrong comment from a President away from becoming a hateful savage? Do they look around and feel surrounded by anger and hate? Or is there some other interpretation?
The problem for Trump is that he knows nothing about the middle class. He is not of the middle class and he has no interest in the middle class, who he dismisses as just a bunch of losers who couldn't make real money. As a consequence, he doesn't really understand the power of the middle class or the limits of their tolerance.
We're both Americans even if we're sometimes harsh.
Some Americans must be more equal than others though since the others' concerns can be dismissed out of hand. Get that mask back up quick!
When accused of being "as binary as people can be", Brookzene replies with an accusation of "moral relativism", as if there is no other choice except pure black-and-white I'm-right-you're-wrong pick-one no-nuance oversimplication and pure relativistic hey-who's-to-say-what's-right-and-what's-wrong?-no-one-can-tell.
His inability to see that most intelligent people live in the broad and fertile territory between the icy wastes of Binaria and the putrid swamps of Relativia is a perfect example of . . . binary thinking!
Brookzene, This is is an honest question, and I hope you respond honestly. Is it your position that any denunciation of white supremacy that also includes a denunciation of Antifa is a non denunciation of white supremacy?
pacwest, no. BTW, I think I noticed an argument of yours before that was against my position but was also pretty thoughtful, at least from what I could see. Even though I didn't respond I recognized that and thought about it. Maybe next time.
I would say any denunciation of the white nationalist protestors that also includes a denunciation of the counterprotesters without noting that one side (white nationalist) is more culpable than another is not right.
I may need more time to refine that - I'm kind of in a rush and not sure if it will hold against a serious counterpunch. Punch away but give me a chance to rebuild my case if it falls apart. I'm going to have to leave soon.
Brookzene seems to believe that if you criticized Stalin and his gulags, his mass-deportations and his judicial murders, you were effectively pro-Nazi.
A lot of people used to believe that.
Donald J. Trump said...
Rather than putting pressure on the businesspeople of the Manufacturing Council & Strategy & Policy Forum, I am ending both. Thank you all!
Most business leaders come from the middle class. They have now bailed. They get the picture.
Some Americans must be more equal than others though since the others' concerns can be dismissed out of hand.
Oh, yeah, certainly. Yours can be dismissed out of hand.
Brookzene, your lies are not working.
Go play in traffic.
Some commenters I don't even read anymore. At least I'm still reading yours.
Mitt Romney sez:
No, not the same, one side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universe."
~ Mitt Romney
This shows you how out of touch he is. In theory, he is correct. But in the real world at Charlottesville, the racist bigoted side had a LEGAL permit to march, ratified by a United District Court Judge. The other side had a violent group, Antifa, who opposed this LEGAL march with clubs, bats and other weapons.
Doesn't excuse James Fields acts -- he should be prosecuted. And we all should show empathy for Heather Heyer and her family. But it adds some depth to Romney's chickenshit statement.
So when the Pro-Fa people marched under the Hammer and Sickle that in no way implicated the CTRL-Left.
And the center-Left argues that there is no moral equivalence between the bigoted, hated idiot neo-Nazis and the pro-communists?
In matters like this, I trust buwaya's insights and wish the Will to Power could be diminished without far worse than what we currently observe.
BROOKZENE: But let's not be afraid to look at other non-rational considerations as well.
MICHAEL K: Yes. That;s how we get "Herstory" instead of History and "Feminist Math."
Oh, there's no question that things can go wrong when you intentionally give more space to the irrational (feelings, emotions, randomness, etc).
But you should see how fucked things get when people think they are acting with reason, when they're actually not. Not pretty either.
@Nonapod: "Or is there some other interpretation?"
There is. The left doesn't think Trump's comments will do anything besides presenting an opportunity for them to exploit, or think the middle class is going to rise up and join the alt-right, or believe lynching will become a fad, or feel surrounded by "hate." It's all a pose: they are cowing the middle class into submission, they are badgering the GOPe to turn the other cheek, they are delegitimating Trump by any means necessary, and they are scorching the earth to prepare for prog power--erase history, equate the right with the alt-right, control all the instruments of propaganda, and celebrate and protect antifa violence. They fight, hard. They want to win. That is their "filter."
Of course, the "nazi" nuts play right into their hands.
AReasonableMan said...
The problem for Trump is that he knows nothing about the middle class. He is not of the middle class and he has no interest in the middle class, who he dismisses as just a bunch of losers who couldn't make real money. As a consequence, he doesn't really understand the power of the middle class or the limits of their tolerance.
8/16/17, 12:32 PM
Sorry, my screen went a little goofy and didn't see that you typed Trump, thought you were talking about Hillary and what a good point you had. You may also have a good point about Trump but it a case of a) do you want to get punched in the gut really hard once or b) smacked in the head with a hammer for 4 years. Luckily just enough people in the right places chose the punch in the gut. Lesser of two evils man, lesser of two evils.
Brookzene said...
[Some Americans must be more equal than others though since the others' concerns can be dismissed out of hand.]
Oh, yeah, certainly. Yours can be dismissed out of hand.
Just mine though? Just a little bit ago it was the entire right wing. Work hard, save that brand! Maybe people won't remember what you really think.
TL;DR of the article: There is no spectrum, only liberals and the people who don't agree with them, far right Nazis by definition.
It's so simple I'm surprised that the NYT felt any need to explain it.
I've never seen you in person, Brookzene, but I'm wondering -- do you part your halo on the left or the right?
Brookzene, Another time. Thanks for the response.
I would say any denunciation of the white nationalist protestors that also includes a denunciation of the counterprotesters without noting that one side (white nationalist) is more culpable than another is not right.
How exactly are you judging that culpability?
You can either go to the ideas espoused by each group, which in my opinion are both quite noxious but i might concede that the Alt-right is worse in a general way especially through the lens of our history.
So leave that aside and then examine culpability in a different way. Which side had legal permits (I'm not sure of the correct answer, if the leftist groups did or not), did each side assemble where they had legal right to do so, and which side initiated violence (the Vice video shows mace attacks by the leftists, for instance, but I don't know if anything preceded that.)
My point is that it is complicated to apportion the blame, and I don't think we're in a position to know all of the facts. That to me makes Trump's statements correct, it's just that he isn't trusted by moderate and left leaning people enough for his balanced statements to be accepted. I really wish someone on the left of center would make a similar call for a balanced and calm perspective.
"Most business leaders come from the middle class. They have now bailed. They get the picture."
If you think the middle class is not behind Trump, you are as deluded as your favorite candidate, Hilalry.
But, of course, that is nothing new.
CEOs are virtue signaling to the left that hate Capitalism.
ARM sure seems to be spending a lot of energy trying to get us to believe that demonstrators with hand weapons, such as brass knuckles, baseball bats, etc, wearing black and masks, reigning violence on peaceful pro-Trump demonstrators long before Charloettesville, the same guys causing all of the chaos at G7 meetings, etc, will be welcome as protectors in middle class neighborhoods. I am willing to be that Trump understands the middle class and working class far better than ARM, as he has worked with them his whole life.
Just a couple of weeks ago, Unknown was bashing Trump for being "a poor man's idea of what a rich man should be" without any thought that maybe it's because Trump is simpatico with working class people. But, as they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.
@Sebastian
As someone who generally leans right, that's the interpretation that seems to fit neatly in my own filter, it explains everything neatly. It validates and justifies my own thinking and beliefs. But I want to give the left the benefit of the doubt.
I guess at this point I'm less interested in winning an argument on the internet and more interested in hopefully getting people to understand where their opponents are honestly coming from. I don't see the benefit of going round and round insulting the other side at every turn. It's no longer very entertaining for me. I'd like to see something good actually happen from all this. I think good things can actually come from all this. But I'm probably being to optimistic.
Just mine though? Just a little bit ago it was the entire right wing. Work hard, save that brand! Maybe people won't remember what you really think.
Oh the whole right-wing brand has been very damaged, that doesn't mean I dismiss all righties out of hand! Of course not, some of them are incredibly brilliant and interesting - not to mention ethical and good.
Brookzene said "I'm not afraid to say what's right or wrong when it's obvious, unlike you moral relativists."
Have you ever noticed how quick leftists are to take the criticisms and catchphrases of the right and invert the meanings of those words?
The Left is justly and accurately accused of moral relativism. Brookzene is the number one example of it on this thread, as she doesn't think it's quite so bad when the antifa aims the baseball bat at the Nazi's head as it is when the roles are reversed. But Brookzene slapped the term on those who condemn ALL political violence.
Why, it's almost like words mean whatever Brookzene wants them to mean.
The same is true of the mild insult "snowflake," originally used to describe the college students who cried, screamed and called for space spaces and puppies when Trump was elected or Milo showed up on campus. Brookzene uses to the word to describe those who make fun of the fragile leftist souls or are offended when a leftist groups tries to cancel the First Amendment!
You're a snowflake if you criticize Leftist snowflakes! Buck up and take your punishment!
It's argument on the level of "I know you are, but what am I?"
@rick And perhaps I was too harsh on you, too. Basically I like humans, even in the alt-right. I just don't always like their arguments.
Plus it looks like the guy who organized the demonstration, who founded "Unite the Right" was an Occupy activist and Obama supporter right up the election, who only "changed his views" after the resistance to Trump was declared by Democrats. He said on his own blog that he thought that agent provocateur was a high calling.
I don't know of any anti-semitism on the right to speak of, if anything, the right embarrasses Jews with all of the adoration. It's the left that kicks Jews out of their various parades.
I just don't always like their arguments.
Brookzene, why don't you take one of their arguments that you "don't like" and recap it for us, in summary, in your own words.
My bet is that you don't even hear their arguments, just straw men planted in your mind by agents of the left, like the guy who organized this demonstration.
On the other hand some people are just deplorable as people, regardless of their political beliefs.
Take exiledonmainstreet for example. She's not just my bitch, people. You righties feel free to make her your bitch as well.
some of them are incredibly brilliant
Spit my coffee on that one! How would you even know?
Plus it looks like the guy who organized the demonstration, who founded "Unite the Right" was an Occupy activist and Obama supporter right up the election, who only "changed his views" after the resistance to Trump was declared by Democrats. He said on his own blog that he thought that agent provocateur was a high calling.
Has this been verified? I'm not sure that I trust the sources I've seen reporting it, but if true then another false flag operation by the left certainly puts a new twist on things.
Brookzene, why don't you take one of their arguments that you "don't like" and recap it for us, in summary, in your own words.
Heh heh. @TimInVermont, why don't you just screw yourself?
Love these people who want to rig the game so you can't win. Fuck that. You call me on it if I ever do it to you guys.
tim in vermont said...
I am willing to be that Trump understands the middle class and working class far better than ARM, as he has worked with them his whole life.
This is delusional. Trump doesn't really 'work' with anyone, he dominates. It is much easier to dominate the working class than the middle class. The dumb fuck has just lost the business community, guess how many other middle class people are now signalling their distance from Trump.
You righties feel free to make her your bitch as well.
This is why you are deaf to the other side, because if you could actually hear us, you would have to give up your sense of superiority, and you couldn't live without those frissons of self satisfaction you get each time you express your bigotry.
Archie Bunker felt superior every time he put down Lamont. Bigots don't feel low and mean, they feel elevated, like you do, Brookie, every time they make a bigoted remark. It's why it is so hard for you to see you are a bigot.
"Take exiledonmainstreet for example. She's not just my bitch, people."
Now, now, temper, temper. I understand you are entirely unable to respond logically or sensibly to any of my comments, but that hardly calls for naughty words and foot stamping. Mommy's not raising you right.
Tsk, tsk.
I've never seen you in person, Brookzene, but I'm wondering -- do you part your halo on the left or the right?
Yeah, I can be insufferable sometimes. Got to know your weaknesses. I always like to nail people on their self-importance, probably I struggle so much with it.
> Most business leaders come from the middle class. They have now bailed.
LOL. Old Marxist theory: the proletariat are the wave of the future. New Marxist theory: The bourgeoisie are the wave of the future.
"...guess how many other middle class people are now signalling their distance from Trump."
Three? Four?
This is delusional.
You tell us all about how working and middle class people want masked demonstrators with hand weapons showing up at opposing political rallies, I am not talking about this proven false flag operation in Charlottesville, Btw, you tell me how they are going to side with people who cover their faces and provoke violence.
They guy who organized this "rally" had a blog, he converted to "White Nationalism" after the election, he was a loyal Democrat before it, he 'converted' after the Democrats declared "the resistance," and after expressing admiration for agent provocateurs on his blog.
Archie Bunker felt superior every time he put down Lamont. Bigots don't feel low and mean, they feel elevated, like you do, Brookie, every time they make a bigoted remark. It's why it is so hard for you to see you are a bigot.
I know who I am. There's probably not anything a bunch of people who are so morally confused about Charlottesville, neo-Nazis and antifas can call me that's going to enlighten me further or even hurt my feelings.
Brookie, somebody is somebody's 'bitch' there, but I think Dunnin-Kruger is keeping you from seeing it.
That's a refreshing response, Brookzene -- very cool. I also think that trait applies to most people who venture into blog comment sections.
Sorry Ann, Milo Yiannopoulos is no more believable as a definer of "alt-right" than the New York Times. This Brit has no idea how many, if any, "disaffected Tea Party supporters" were attracted to the alt-right because he didn't know that the organization he referred was the TEA Party as in "Taxed Enough Already." Above all else TEA Partiers were peaceable and certainly not inclined to be attracted to violent extremists.
When Yiannopoulous wrote his famous "alt-right" piece for Breitbart he started out by saying:
The alternative right, more commonly known as the alt-right, is an amorphous movement. Some — mostly Establishment types — insist it’s little more than a vehicle for the worst dregs of human society: anti-Semites, white supremacists, and other members of the Stormfront set. They’re wrong.
But Charlottesville is proof positive that the "alt-right" is indeed exactly what the "Establishment types" said it was.
As for a succinct definition of the "alt-left," it is, according to Simon Malloy at The Week, "a term that was invented by right-wing extremists to discredit left-wing groups that oppose them." But Ann implies that The Donald made the word up in his own little pea brain, which is not possible. Perhaps he got the term from Steve Bannon?
There's probably not anything a bunch of people who are so morally confused about Charlottesville, neo-Nazis and antifas
Well, your psychological defenses against hearing anything that might cause you psychic pain, like hearing about weaknesses is your arguments are masterfully constructed.
Does it even bother you that the demonstration was organized by an Obama supporter, who had a blog to sound off on his views, who only became a "White Nationalist" after the election?
Brookzene said...
Oh the whole right-wing brand has been very damaged
On the whole, the GOP holds more elected offices, as a percentage, than it has since Reconstruction.
Dems are doing better in the state and fed bureaucracies and the judiciary, where they are protected from the will of the voters.
It wasn't always this way. Apparently the Clintons and Obama have damaged the D brand more than the GOP has damaged the right wing brand.
I have never heard a liberal explain the failure of the dems at the polls other than to use hand-waving ("redistricting, in sheer numbers we got more vote totals in our congressional districts than the GOP did in their congressional districts . . ."). This marks them being profoundly unserious people.
@Fabi that's a brother.
Sorry Gadfly, your Republican Party is dead, Why don't you just become a Democrat already?
But Charlottesville is proof positive that the "alt-right" is indeed exactly what the "Establishment types" said it was.
No Charlottesville showed the tiny slice of people who showed up in Charlottesville are what the establishment types feared. This comment shows your goal is to tar everyone with the actions and ideas of the few even as you argue the tactic is illegitimate.
Brookzene:
"Basically I like humans, even in the alt-right"
Brookzene a few minutes later, after I posted a comment critical of her word-twisting:
"Take exiledonmainstreet for example. She's not just my bitch, people. You righties feel free to make her your bitch as well"
And yet again:
"@TimInVermont, why don't you just screw yourself?"
The mask is on, the mask falls off - just in the space of a few minutes.
Brookzene, why don't you take one of their arguments that you "don't like" and recap it for us, in summary, in your own words.
Heh heh. @TimInVermont, why don't you just screw yourself?
Love these people who want to rig the game so you can't win. Fuck that. You call me on it if I ever do it to you guys.
Yeah, asking you to argue in good faith is almost certainly a "rigged" game that you "can't win."
Nice to hear you admit it.
Above all else TEA Partiers were peaceable and certainly not inclined to be attracted to violent extremists.
Really? You certainly wouldn't have known that from the reporting that went on during the Obamacare debate coverage, etc. Remember how TeaPartiers called a congressman the "N" word?
My point is this: if the media couldn't get that right (and they didn't), then why should I believe anything they're reporting on this incident.
" I always like to nail people on their self-importance, probably I struggle so much with it."
The self-awareness displayed here is truly wonderful.
I'm reminded of the person interviewing for a job who is asked about their greatest weakness.
"I'm a perfectionist and I know I worry too much about my job. I struggle with it."
But Charlottesville is proof positive that the "alt-right" is indeed exactly what the "Establishment types" said it was.
No, and you're as guilty as the left when it comes to labeling. The alt-right is NOT what the establishment types said - the KKK and Neo-Nazi's were around before the Tea Party and haven't changed their ways in any way. The alt-right is exactly what Milo said they were - those on the right side of the aisle, but not part of the establishment, and anti GOP establishment.
Breaking news from the Alt-Middle:
Both Trump's Manufacturing Council and the Strategy & Policy Council dissolved.
I guess JOBS, JOBS, JOBS wasn't that big of a deal after all.
But Ann implies that The Donald made the word up in his own little pea brain, which is not possible. Perhaps he got the term from Steve Bannon?
Gadfly morphed into LLR Chuck so quickly I didn't even have time to notice...
I guess JOBS, JOBS, JOBS wasn't that big of a deal after all.
Well, it was until the cowards on the council thought virtue signaling was more important than jobs jobs jobs...
> Remember how TeaPartiers called a congressman the "N" word?
Remember how no one was able to verify that despite a $100K reward? John Lewis hasn't covered himself in glory the last several years.
Unlike the business leaders, you are not getting it. Middle class people aren't going to put up with the crap they saw in Charlottesville. We aren't going to have a bunch of heavily armed troglodytes walk through the streets of our neighborhoods at night with torches chanting "jews will not replace us”. It's not going to happen, because it is a threat to how we have organized our lives. Nut-jobs prancing around with semi-automatics on our streets is not part of our lifestyle.
Maybe there is some rural town somewhere that will welcome these lunatics but middle America is not going to. Trump had to make it clear there is no place for these nut-jobs in our society. He failed.
The alt-right is exactly what Milo said they were - those on the right side of the aisle, but not part of the establishment, and anti GOP establishment.
8/16/17, 1:19 PM
Which is why Mitt, Rubio, Ryan, etc. are working to ensure that the anti-GOP establishment conservatives get tarred with the "neo-Nazi" label, even if the GOP Establishment have to ally themselves with the left to do so. They are as interested in DC swamp preservation as the Left is.
I think it will end up biting them in the ass, but we shall see.
guess JOBS, JOBS, JOBS wasn't that big of a deal after all
What's the unemployment rate?
As for Alt-Left, there are plenty of these kinds of stories, just won't get reported in the WaPo, or the NYT, so they don't exist.
Former Calif. professor arrested in ‘violent’ bike lock attacks on Trump supporters
This was way before the newly minted, but formerly Obama and Occupy supporter, "White Supremacist" organized the Charltottesville rally.
Yeah, asking you to argue in good faith is almost certainly a "rigged" game that you "can't win."
You can't see how transparent you are? ROFL.
"The US unemployment rate fell one-tenth of a percentage point to 4.3 percent in July 2017, matching a 16-year low touched in May."
Jobs, jobs, jobs....
I said this earlier, but I want to repeat it. The Media has successfully conflated three distinct events into "the Charlottesvile protests."
1. The Friday night torch march, where the alt-right Nazis are clearly agitating/being provocative.
2. The street fighting around the rally where both sides are clearly at fault; they dressed for a fight, showed up with weapons, and even met each other in neat skirmish lines.
3. The murder by what appears to be a mentally unbalanced person who identifies with the alt-right.
Trump and others are focused on the second incident, where there was clearly violence by both sides, and allowing their attempt at nuance there be turned around and used to make it look like they support the nazis involved in 1 and 3.
"Middle class people aren't going to put up with the crap they saw in Charlottesville."
-- Again, middle class people have been putting up with this crap *for over a year*.
The hatred and simple obliviousness is interesting to watch, as long as it isn;t next door to me.
But Charlottesville is proof positive that the "alt-right" is indeed exactly what the "Establishment types" said it was.
No, it is only "proof" in your mind.
I wonder if you realize that there are thousands of white boys who are growing more and more resentful of how they are treated by the "diversity drenched" left in college, even in high school.
I had an applicant to the military tell me he was beaten up repeatedly for being the only white kid in his Phoenix high school class. These people are real. The military has been a refuge for these young guys but it is even being invaded by the SJWs with this trannie thing, which Trump thank God stopped.
Matthew Sablan said...
their attempt at nuance
The people marching of Friday night were the same people marching on Saturday and one of them was the same person who murdered a woman later than day. Same actors different scenes.
"But Charlottesville is proof positive that the "alt-right" is indeed exactly what the "Establishment types" said it was."
-- Cool. Can we say that the antifa and far left are the equivalent of the Scalise shooter and various others? Cause I'd like to dumb down the discourse even more and tar large populations with invective more.
Because that'll surely help us find a peaceful solution.
"Archie Bunker felt superior every time he put down Lamont."
What?
... Different scenes is vitally, vitally important. The grand melee we saw during the day is where most of the violence happened. The murder was terrible, but the guy is in jail and will have his day in court. The Friday night disruption was, compared to what we've seen on other campuses, a relatively minor fracas.
The big thing that disrupted the city was the riots, which involved lines of armed skirmishers from both parties.
If you let the torch march and murder muddy that (and by let, I clearly mean deliberately attempt to so you don't have to talk about it), then yes. You can reach absurd conclusions like "the left was non-violent" or "only Nazis were violent."
We aren't going to have a bunch of heavily armed troglodytes walk through the streets of our neighborhoods at night with torches chanting "jews will not replace us”.
Especially since they weren't doing it.
This is the old leftist slur that the Tea Party spit on Pelosi, et al. Brietbart offered $100,000 to anyone who could prove it.
Those kids, with a possible exception of a few neo-Nazis in the crowd, were chanting, "You will not replace us."
Watch the video before you show your ignorance and malice.
I agree that there is no need for the term "alt-left." The proper term for the violent, racist, reductionist, eliminationist left is "the left."
The business leaders of America just told the president of America to 'go fuck himself' and you guys remain desperately clinging to the belief that nothing has changed.
Middle class people aren't going to put up with the crap they saw in Charlottesville.
What we saw in Charlottesville was organized by an Obama supporter who expressed admiration for agent provocateurs on his pro occupy blog.
Is this what the middle class is looking for?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/26/eric-clanton-former-calif-professor-arrested-in-vi/
or this: https://thehornnews.com/arrests-felony-assault-trump-supporters/
Or even this, in case you think this just started this past week: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Seattle_WTO_protests
Now let's go to the New York Times:
Last semester’s protests at the University of California, Berkeley, challenged liberal presumptions about who exactly the good guys were. Anti-fascists, or Antifa, clad like ninjas and hellbent on silencing a speaker (the provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos), smashed windows and set fires. Clashes with right-wingers erupted again at rallies in March and April in support of free speech (a “messy pepper spray mosh pit,” as one anti-fascist described it).
The Antifa collective, fueled by an emboldened right wing,
You know what a good synonym for "emboldened" is? "Uppity." But I digress.
When the Antifa got there, some with makeshift weapons and M-80 firecrackers, fighting broke out (each side blames the other).[did the Trump supporters show up with weapons?- tiv] Mr. Lawrence didn’t engage. “I’m 5 feet 2. I know what my assets are in this movement, and being able to throw down physically isn’t one of them.” His role: “There’s power to being a body in the mass.”
Mr. Lawrence has been involved with the anarcho-punk scene since high school. His first black bloc protest was last winter. “Violence is frightening,” he said. “I get it. Violence is messy. It’s not elegant.” But he argues that today’s high political stakes justify violence. “Whatever you can do to throw a wrench in the gears is valuable.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/education/edlife/antifa-collective-university-california-berkeley.html
These are the champions of the law and order middle class.
Lest anyone think this type of confrontation is new, they should look at some films of the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago. No neo-Nazis were involved, however.
Matthew Sablan said...
If you let the torch march and murder muddy that
This is sick. This is the problem. This is what the middle class will not tolerate. You really don't get it. The business leaders of America get it.
The middle class saw the videos of those events, nothing erases those videos. They are not having that crap in their neighborhood. I would like to see these lunatics try this in my neighborhood. Instead of a hundred people counter-protesting there would be thousands of people out on the streets.
AReasonableMan said...
8/16/17, 1:22 PM
The projection is AWESOME to watch!
Unlike the business leaders, you are not getting it. Middle class people aren't going to put up with the crap they saw in Charlottesville.
You are right, the middle class is getting quite fed up with antifa thugs and WILL stop it as the Democratic local politicians have demonstrated that they lack the will.
We aren't going to have a bunch of heavily armed troglodytes walk through the streets of our neighborhoods at night with torches chanting "jews will not replace us”. It's not going to happen, because it is a threat to how we have organized our lives. Nut-jobs prancing around with semi-automatics on our streets is not part of our lifestyle.
I believe you have your facts wrong. There were three groups (if you can call them that) in Charlottesville. The antifa thugs, the neo-Nazis, and a third group that was armed with guns, openly.
The antifa thugs brought plenty of weapons but (it seems) few guns. The neo-Nazis did not appear armed at all AND had a legal permit to be there. The third group brought the guns to try and protect the first amendment rights of the neo-Nazis NOT because they agree with the neo-Nazis but because the Constitution matters, which happens to be the same reason the ACLU supported the neo-Nazis permit.
If you feel any group should be condemned how about calling out the one that was there illegally and used force to silence another group? What ever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Is that just more useless dead white man words?
How many neo-Nazis were involved in the Watts riots of 1965? That's right. None. The truth is that violent behavior, outside of war and self defense, is inappropriate and morally wrong.
Like "fascist" and "neo-con," "alt-right" has become simply Libspeak for "people I don't agree with." Like Nazis. You know, Nazis--National Socialists who believed in a big, all-powerful State to control the means of production. Not like "liberals" at all.
That is not sick, ARM. Stop trying to deliberately change things. There are three separate incidents. And all three have been condemned. The only problem people have is, when it comes to 1 and 2, some people want to say, "Well, Nazis weren't the only assholes there."
What people are talking about is the giant melee that disrupted the city. Stop speaking for the middle class or the business leaders. You're not their Lorax and, frankly, since you didn't seem to need to speak for them when their parades were being canceled, their universities and cities burned and destroyed over the past year, I frankly don't believe you care about the middle class, save as a useful bludgeon.
AReasonableMan said...
The business leaders of America just told the president of America to 'go fuck himself' and you guys remain desperately clinging to the belief that nothing has changed.
Nothing has changed. A handful of people resigned so their businesses don't become subjects for next week's Two Minutes of Hate. Meanwhile people eager to see a Big Turning Pint claim this is the BTP just like they claimed the BTP was both two months ago and two months before that.
Brookzene said... In fact I do remember how all Americans were behind condemning this disgusting act of violence.
--
Bullshit..it got barely a fraction of the coverage and was quicjky gone altogether. As always..the Left's violence is portrayed as isolated, unique.
The strawman is your insistence criticizing fascists and well as white nationalists is inappropriate.
Bull shit! I am saying there is no moral equivalence
" What ever happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Is that just more useless dead white man words?"
Nope. ARM has defended the antifas before. He's all in favor of political violence if it comes from his side.
That's what he calls "being anti-fascist."
"The neo-Nazis did not appear armed at all AND had a legal permit to be there."
-- All reports, even those by the neo-Nazis, state that the Neo-Nazis came armed with clubs, shields, pepper sprays and other bludgeons, with a few openly carrying legal firearms.
ARM asserts: The middle class saw the videos of those events, nothing erases those videos. They are not having that crap in their neighborhood. I would like to see these lunatics try this in my neighborhood. Instead of a hundred people counter-protesting there would be thousands of people out on the streets.
I assume you mean the antifa rioters? Yes, they wouldn't last long in my neighborhood, either.
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