A question — aimed at Evangelicals (but anyone can answer) — from Ken Burns, the film documentarian (the one with the still images that slowly move forward).
IN THE COMMENTS: tcrosse said, "He was despised."
AND: My answer: He's a tekton.
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193 comments:
The hair?
It's how he's always trying to steer policy to help the least among us.
Trump loves everyone. Trump loves you. Trump is love.
How he lashes out at the hypocrites who pretend to care for the weak and the lowly, but actually don't give a damn.
Being crucified?
Is the implication Hilary IS like Jesus and Evangelicals should have voted for her instead?
Walking on water.
The left need to be worshiped. They do not understand why we do not worship them, and why we do not worship their fascist corrupt leaders.
The part where he drained the swampy den of thieves and made the temple great again.
1. The reaction of Pharisees like Burns
2. "We want God."
rh beat me to it.
Quaestor:
Crucified? Yes.
By the best, the brightest, and the most corrupt.
Also, resurrection. They can't keep a good man aborted.
The political Left demanding that government crucify him?
Would Jesus make a good President?
He wouldn't run for President.
Ken Burns - employing a Saul Alinsky tactic: make them live up to their own standards.
I like many of Ken Burns documentaries, but not a fan of Alinsky tactics.
Ken Burns - do you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior?
The antisemitism.
For all his billions Donald Trump couldn't buy better campaign ad copy than proglodyte cretins like Ken Burns provide for him gratis every day.
The left worship each other in their Ivory Towers. Horrible Christians do not understand that they too must worship leftists in their Ivory Towers.
The left understand that forgiveness is a river that only flows in their direction.
You can forgive any leftwing democrat for anything - leaving a woman for dead under a bridge, cigar sex in the Oval office, Fannie & Freddie lies/ sub-prime mortgage economic destruction...
All of that is understandable and forgivable. Trump - come on you deplorable Christians, open your eyes!
Hmmm,why might evangelicals support Trump and Republicans instead of a political party dedicated to their destruction?
The world may never know.
Jesus would show up at the golden statue self-congratulatory wealthy left-wing celebrity awards, and turn over some tables.
I am an atheist, but I am tempted to answer "the way the smug sneer at him."
Also, the part where the angel came to Donald's mother (who by the way was conceived without sin) and told her "behold: you're womb contains the light of the world who grow up to build a wall with solar panels on it"
I think I'll go with Matthew 10:34-37.
Whenever someone asks "what would Jesus do" you should remind them that turning over tables and whipping people are possibilities.
But seriously, is the Left being willfully obtuse on this matter or are they seriously unable to recognize what they're doing?
I mean the Obama administration, when not trying to force nuns to pay for abortion coverage, would not rule out threatening the tax exempt status for Churches that didn't support gay marriage. And then there's Bernie Sanders' recent attack on an appointee's religious beliefs and the repeated attacks by Democrats on religious hospitals and schools.
Good one, Meade!
The political Left demanding that government crucify him?
This. And that Jesus was hated and vilified by the establishment for bucking the system, overturning the graft and corruption in the temple. The established insiders couldn't stand it so they agitated to have Jesus destroyed so that they could keep their power.
That part. And I'm not even especially religious or Christian.
Q: What part of Donald Trump reminds you of Jesus Christ?
A: Well, Jesus was a carpenter and Donald Trump hires carpenters to build big-ass hotels.
OK, here's mine -- Trump's ability to carry the heavy cross of Western Civilization, while people insult him.
Christopher @ 9:10
(!)
Dust Bunny Queen said...
"The political Left demanding that government crucify him?
This. And that Jesus was hated and vilified by the establishment for bucking the system, overturning the graft and corruption in the temple. The established insiders couldn't stand it so they agitated to have Jesus destroyed so that they could keep their power.
That part. And I'm not even especially religious or Christian."
This. I had typed practically the same thing when I looked up and read it.
Anyway, Burns premise is incorrect. And dumb. We live in the world, and are told:
"Behold, *I* send you as sheep in the midst of wolves; be therefore prudent as the serpents, and guileless as the doves."
But here goes. Trump attended the G20 Summit. Jesus also associated with the morally suspect.
...asked the activist documentarian
With the Jackson Browne haircut.
The left accepted and ignored Hillary's Private Server For Personal Enrichment.
They really thought they could bring Trump down with "Grab em' by the pussy" and other various strange utterances.
Turns out that people care more about corruption than strange utterances.
Poor Hollywood.
They wandered in the rough looking for something?
He [Jesus] wouldn't run for President.
I should certainly hope not! Jesus is already the King of Kings. Christ is a monarchist, not a democrat.
That being said, like every mortal human, Trump reminds me of Christ's common humanity with us. Of Christ's strength, mirrored in our own weakness. Of Christ's endurance, mirrored in our own failure. Trump is a man, Christ is a man. Beyond that? Not much.
But I think some commenters are very perceptive when they point out that the Ken Burns of 1st Century Jerusalem were equally dismissive and disgusted by Jesus and his message as the bein pensants of our age are appalled by Trump. Not that Trump's message is like Jesus's message.
For Mitt Romney came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ Donald Trump came both eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds. (after Matthew 11:18-19)
That last sentence remains to be seen, of course.
In the New Testament, Chapters 14-17 of the Gospel of John are known as the Farewell Discourse given by Jesus to eleven of his disciples immediately after the conclusion of the Last Supper in Jerusalem, the night before his crucifixion...
Part 3: If the world hates you
Stained glass window with a quote from the Farewell Discourse: "In the world ye shall have tribulation."
In John 15:18-16:33 Jesus prepares his disciples for conflict and hatred by the world, reminding them he had also faced adversity:
"If the world hateth you, ye know that it hath hated me before [it hated] you." ... "They hated me without a cause."
Warning the disciples of coming persecutions he says:
"If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you"
This again draws parallels between Jesus and his disciples, as had been drawn earlier in the discourse.[4] In the First Epistle of John (3:13) the brethren are reminded of this again: "Marvel not, brethren, if the world hateth you".[4] Drawing parallels again, Jesus states in John 15:23:
"He that hateth me hateth my Father also"
But Jesus comforts the disciples by assuring them that he will send the "Spirit of Truth" to bear his witness:
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me"
And Jesus adds that unless he departs the Holy Spirit will not arrive, and indicates that the continuation of his work in the world will be carried out by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus also assures the disciples of the love of the Father for them, again drawing parallels:
"Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father."
"In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
After these statements, Jesus begins a series of prayers for the disciples.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me, and if that doesn't work, I still have The Twitter account.
It's how he's always trying to steer policy to help the least among us.
I'm not religious and I'm not sure how you meant that but it's a good answer.
I think it must be the media coverage.
CNN: "Here is video of Jesus pushing and shoving his way past Barabbas to ensure that his cross would be most prominent in the middle of the three."
Our political leaders are not messiahs and it is a mistake to try to shoehorn them into that category.
But to answer Mr. Burns' exxxxcellent question, "Behold the man!"
Make Aramaic Great Again!
Trump will really remind me of JC when he starts saying things like:
"The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me."
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."
"I have come to cast fire upon the Earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three"
In being completely unChristlike, yet able to fool those who believe in him into thinking he has even the slightest concern for their interests, he is the Anti-Christ.
What choice did evangelicals have exactly? They stayed home in 2008 and 20012 and look what that got them.
My prior answer would have been the same had this question been asked about Hillary Clinton.
CNN: "Here is video of Jesus pushing and shoving his way past Barabbas to ensure that his cross would be most prominent in the middle of the three."
Barabbas?
The media machine has certainly done its best job of scourging Trump and fitting him for a crown of thorns, but he doesn't seem willing to oblige them and get up on that cross for them.
It's entirely possible that Trump doesn't have the slightest concern for anyone's interests besides his own, and that the policies and processes he enacts will still benefit many people.
"He shamefully took out a full-page ad in all of the New York dailies asking for a restoration of the death penalty for two 14-year-old, two 15-year-old, and one 16-year-old innocent children. While New York State laws would not have permitted their execution, just the fact that there was a rush to judgment ought to be complete evidence of how temperamentally unsuited he is for the office he now seeks."
Despicable!
These comments are choice. Well done commenting community!
Courage to diligently lead. The Gifts are given to the body of Christ in different measure, but all for the Benefit of the body.
See, 1 Corinthians 12, the whole Chapter. Paul had quite a Gift too, and using it in face of the envy of men takes immense courage.
That he thinks he's God.
I wonder whether Ken Burns thinks that the current state of inner-city America reflects people voting their own interests.
The Jesusy part.
Ken Burns never did anything that matched the magnificent documentary about "The Old Negro Space Program." Obligatory sad music in background.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8
He was despised.
A note from St. Paul to Ken Burns and others of his ilk: "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are that judge: for wherein you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things." (Romans 2:1); and from the Bible: "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."(Ecclesiastes 7:20)
Self-righteousness (first cousin to Hubris) seems to dwell firmly in the hearts of many of our betters on the left.
I don't think there is an evangelical in the country who thinks Trump is like Jesus.
But: God writes straight with crooked lines.
Every human being is made in the image of God (Gen 2:26). That includes Trump, Burns, even you and me.
Robert Cook wrote: My prior answer would have been the same had this question been asked about Hillary Clinton.
Ken Burns: What part of Hillary Clinton reminds you of Jesus Christ?
Quaestor: The panzoots.
Ken Burns must think he's being extremely clever with his rhetorical question to evangelical voters, but he is sadly mistaken. I'm no expert, but Christians don't vote for Jesus, of that I'm quite certain. For Burns to make such an obvious mistake is prima facia evidence of deep-seated stupidity.
Free markets, capitalism and individual rights and freedoms have proven to lift more people out of poverty. I vote for the person who's policies move us toward these ideals.
Jesus? I already compared Trump to Bob Dylan in an earlier post. Wasn't that enough?
I am Laslo.
He is willing to tell the truth, even when the establishment wants to kill him for it?
Ken Burns tends to over-analyze. In analyzing Trump's "temperament" he is making the mistake of extrapolating his Hollywood persona into his political and personal beliefs.
Would it be possible that Jane Fonda being naked in a movie, means she wants to be naked with Senators if she were to run for office.
Would she try to corrupt all Americans into thinking they had to get naked in order to succeed.
Would her being naked in a movie or a titillating interview, which provides her income, mean that she is "temperamentally unsuited" for public office?
Has Ken Burns ever made money outside of government grants and progressive donations?
Would he, like FDR, put suspicious Americans in Internment Camps, while maintaining a mistress?
Was FDR "temperamentally unsuited" for public office?
sunsong
"He shamefully took out a full-page ad in all of the New York dailies asking for a restoration of the death penalty[...]"
Yes, but Trump only did that so he could pardon them later and save their souls.
damn you Exiled.
"Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."(Ecclesiastes 7:20)
Yes, it's a wonder. They never ever seem to question themselves or any of their core beliefs.
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’"
The leftist said, "Gaia, I thank you that I am not like other people - deplorables, racists, climate deniers, gun owners - or even like this hillbilly. I recycle my trash and give to Planned Parenthood and NPR."
It’s a question that a Lefty living in the religion-less bubble world of Lefty assumptions would ask. The question assumes that religious voters are one dimensional, a little stupid and able to keep only one thought at a time in their weak little minds. The question is born as a result of a stereotype and illustrates perfectly what contempt blended with ignorance looks like.
Guess what, Ken … the evangelicals can think two … sometimes even three steps ahead. They can see and understand what you Lefties have done, are currently trying to do and want to continue to do. They are not as ignorant of your world as you are of theirs.
But I love the question. It tells me that the Lefties are still absolutely clueless about the transformation that is happening before their wide, astonished eyes.
A question for Ken: What part of Obama reminded you of Karl Marx? I’ll answer for him: Every part.
Yes, but Trump only did that so he could pardon them later and save their souls.
What??? They were innocent! What Trump did was despicable
Courage and audacity, perhaps? But that's not the point. Burns and company don't get it. Why should we be electing a Christ? Christ is Christ and Lord of all. We render unto Caesar. And watch out for Brutus [the media?]. And Cassius, with his lean and hungry look [Ryan?]. Trump is far more inclined to protect our freedom to worship than was Obama.
As a card-carrying Evangelical, I echo David Begley's congrats. At first I thoguht 'nothing, but that's not the goal.' Picklesworth's 8:59 comment does resonate. Calling out hypocrisy is definitely an element, especially that of tax-collectors (the Swamp). Trump isn't without his own hypocrisy, of course, which is why I still mostly resonate with Questor's 9:50 comment. Burns isn't stupid, though. He's attempting what a lot of progressives are attempting, which is to highlight what they think is the inconsistency between Evangelicals and their voting here. It's a form of shaming, but the trouble comes in misunderstanding the audience.
During the election, I occasionally made the comment that choosing between Hillary and Trump was more like choosing between Pilate and Herod Antipas.
But all that said, there's certainly an unfortunate idealization of Trump by many Evangelicals alongside an idealization of political solutions that infects both the Christian Right and Christian Left.
He was despised.
Good one, tcrosse!
The part where Jesus colluded with the Pharisees.
I am Laslo.
"Jesus? I already compared Trump to Bob Dylan in an earlier post. Wasn't that enough?"
I must've missed that. Was it where Bob sang: Every sinner must get stoned for whatever bad thing he said on the Access Hollywood tape?
sunsong said...What??? They were innocent!
At the time, they had admitted to the crime.
You are using your hindsight to get into an earlier time-zone. It doesn't work that way.
When someone says they raped someone:
1) You believe them.
2) You don't believe them.
In all cases you have to prove their claim. The reason you have to prove it, is that man is evil.
And Quaestor's He was crucified.
They are both fictional characters
His disciples asked him what this parable meant. He said, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables (NIV)
From a certain point of view, even people can be acts of God, as saviors or afflictions, with no reference to their personal state of sanctity. God works through sinners too.
My abuelitas comment on the atom bomb on Hiroshima -
"era castigo de Dios"
It was Gods punishment.
The Americans, the President, the Joint Chiefs, the Manhattan project, the USAAF, the B29 wings, the crew of the Enola Gay, good men and sinners, believers and atheists, Catholics and Protestants and Jews - were merely His instruments.
I wish Ken Burns wouldn't do this mostly because I like Ken Burns' films and Ken Burns' personal politics just detract from my enjoyment of those films. (Not for a moment am I telling Ken Burns to shut up; I am simply saying that for me, it diminishes my enjoyment.)
On the other hand, apart from the silly and facile invocation of Jesus Christ, I notice that on a comments page where there are a lot of genuinely funny and clever responses, nobody is challenging the meaning of that old story -- well documented and true -- about Trump's wanting the death penalty for the Central Park Five, all of whom were acquitted based on DNA evidence and the confession of another man who was a convicted serial rapist.
And in the face of that, Trump doubled down:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/18/opinion/why-trump-doubled-down-on-the-central-park-five.html
Still, this is a bit of a media battle. (In which Trump has done his usual bit of staking out a hard line position that is indefensible and blurring a good conservative argument that would have been better.) As evidence of the latter, I submit Michael Armstrong's wonderful op-ed column that I recalled from the WSJ in 2014:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/michael-f-armstrong-persistent-myths-in-the-central-park-jogger-case-1406674229
As always, there is a really interesting discussion to be had, once everybody agrees to ignore Donald Trump's input.
Phil 3:14 said...
With the Jackson Browne haircut.
Don't for get the wispy goatee. Which, I suspect, he grew to keep people from constantly confusing him with Camille Paglia.
sunsong wrote: "He shamefully took out a full-page ad in all of the New York dailies asking for a restoration of the death penalty for two 14-year-old, two 15-year-old, and one 16-year-old innocent children..." Despicable.
I agree. The grammar is indeed despicable.
Here is an image of that full-page ad which is readable. I invite sunsong to stipulate which parts she finds despicable.
Furthermore I'll lay a wager with the Althousians at large — ten to one sungsong doesn't have the cojones (snark!) to even attempt to answer my challenge.
"It's entirely possible that Trump doesn't have the slightest concern for anyone's interests besides his own, and that the policies and processes he enacts will still benefit many people."
Sure. They will benefit the financial elites, the arms merchants, the oil/coal interests, the police state, and so on.
Of course, the same would have been true of Hillary Clinton.
"I love the poorly educated."
He's fully human?
The choice was Hillary or Trump. Trump is a sinner, but Evangelicals kind of emphasize that we are all sinners who have fallen short and that if you say you haven't sinned, you are a liar.
So it was a choice between a party that seems dead set on driving Christians from public life and forcing them to do things contrary to their religious principles and a guy who didn't seem to want to do that.
You are using your hindsight to get into an earlier time-zone. It doesn't work that way.
Of course it does. It shows his racism! Just as the birther parade does. Trump made himself the judge and the jury, without the benefit of a trial!
the oil/coal interests
More energy is a good thing. You just named something that benefits everyone.
Cook - Because we all know that Democrats are Christ-like.
When I wasn't looking, my father paid $10 to get Esquire magazine for a year. Every article assumes every reader thinks Trump is horrible as a matter of faith. Soon they'll get anti-Trump messages into the photo spreads of ugly, ill-fitting clothes.
The part that didn't run a decades long damage control operation for a serial sexual abuser of women?
sunsong said...
"He shamefully took out a full-page ad in all of the New York dailies asking for a restoration of the death penalty for two 14-year-old, two 15-year-old, and one 16-year-old innocent children. While New York State laws would not have permitted their execution, just the fact that there was a rush to judgment ought to be complete evidence of how temperamentally unsuited he is for the office he now seeks."
Despicable!
7/9/17, 9:43 AM
Please show me the part that mentions "two 14-year-old, two 15-year-old, and one 16-year-old innocent children". The ad
Sure. They will benefit the financial elites, the arms merchants, the oil/coal interests, the police state, and so on.
And, much to the chagrin of the leftists, they'll also benefit the average Joe.
"A question for Ken: What part of Obama reminded you of Karl Marx? I’ll answer for him: Every part."
Hahaha!
Obama is like Marx like Ronald Reagan is like Trotsky.
The full page ad on the death penalty was just Trump pumping up the deplorables like at a WWE event.
Did Trump run that ad before or after the DNA evidence was known?
Jesus himself was the victim of a 1 hour political show trial and he got the death penalty. No DNA evidence was needed.
Of course it does. It shows his racism! Just as the birther parade does. Trump made himself the judge and the jury, without the benefit of a trial!
I've provided you with the text. Explain which parts are racist.
Looks like Quaestor beat me to it.
"I love the poorly educated."
Good one! (I assume you're making a pointed quip.)
"For many bore false witness against him, and their witness did not agree."
Mark 14, 56
Tcrosse: perfect.
There is nothing wrong with that full page ad.
Trump is unafraid to use a 1-iron. (Nevermind this comment if you don't know the old joke.)
Cookie: "Obama is like Marx like Ronald Reagan is like Trotsky."
Perhaps thats why the leftists like yourself constructed elaborate conspiracy theories in order to "politically murder" Reagan.
The left believe the fake stats regarding police shootings. The left believe "Hands up don't shoot" really happened - even though it did not.
The left buy into their own lies, because they have to.
Mark Caplan said...
Trump is unafraid to use a 1-iron. (Nevermind this comment if you don't know the old joke.)"
Trump also can't hit a curveball.
Robert,
The arms merchants, the financial elite, the police state, and (significant difference) the business interests opposed to the oil/coal interests, which are larger than these, backed his opponents.
Trump has made his peace with the arms dealers but the rest of the above still don't like him. He actually has the manufactiring interests, small and medium business, regional financial interests, and extractive industries (oil/coal/gas and etc. also) behind him.
So given the realistic choice between significantly different lots of businesses backing the available political options, how do you come down on one side or the other? Poxing both their houses, or all possible houses? That conclusion doesnt lead to politics, it leads to being a hermit, or the Unabomber.
Mark Caplan:
Oh yeah I know that joke. But Trump doesn't carry a 1-iron, or a 2-iron.
http://www.golf.com/extra-spin/2017/07/06/you-can-buy-donald-trumps-old-golf-clubs-online
Was that Lee Trevino's line? Or did he borrow it? Based on Lee Buck's borrowing lines (and inventing some great ones of his own, to be sure), chances are about 9 to 1 that it was borrowed. I don't know who said it first. Lee is widely credited.
Trump made himself the judge and the jury, without the benefit of a trial!
Why is this here ? Is this just a brain fart because you hate Trump ?
Cookie is ab expert on Marx.
"Perhaps thats why the leftists like yourself constructed elaborate conspiracy theories in order to 'politically murder' Reagan."
What conspiracy theories? How was Reagon "politically murdered?"
In short, Reagan is not like Trotsky like Obama is not like Marx.
My first reaction was offense and "On Sunday, yet?" But then I went out and mowed part of the lawn after service, and thought well, "fully God and fully Man." And we are all made in God's image, so I'll play.
But first, no one thought Trump was like Jesus, and most evangelicals would be as horrified as I am by the thought of confusing secular authority with spiritual authority. Just about the ultimate Christian mistake.
The only real parallels I can find are:
1) The iconoclasm and blunt and hurtful rebuttals to hypocrisy which earn Trump near universal anger from the establishment centers. This was not the president the GOP or the GOP senators wanted, much less the Dems/liberals. Trump is blowing up paradigms which have been twisted and distorted over time to deny their own axiomatic grounds.
2) His people first. Matthew 15:22.
22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting [a]at us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 But she came and began [b]to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 And He answered and said, “It is not [c]good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27 But she said, “Yes, Lord; [d]but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed [e]at once.
How he lashes out at the hypocrites who pretend to care for the weak and the lowly, but actually don't give a damn.
Nice.
Honestly, we don't talk enough about how big government actually harms the poor, keeps them poor, and weakens their family units.
The lynch mob leader ~ let's kill 'em
Ken Burns is an A**. I saw him on a panel show (CNN I think) and the tea party came up and he just blurted out, "They're racist". Someone challenged him, "How do you know?". His answer, "A friend told me.". I laughed out loud - what a joke you are, Ken Burns!
Furthermore I'll lay a wager with the Althousians at large — ten to one sungsong doesn't have the cojones (snark!) to even attempt to answer my challenge.
I think I won my bet.
Checks gladly accepted.
Sunsong-
here are many, many words by Scott Alexander on why throwing out accusations of racism against all and sundry is counterproductive: Against Murderism.
Tax collectors and the unclean were the deplorables of the day.
"The arms merchants, the financial elite, the police state, and (significant difference) the business interests opposed to the oil/coal interests, which are larger than these, backed his opponents."
Because Trump, pretending during the campaign to be a populist, alarmed these interests. In office, he will serve their interests just fine.
"Trump has made his peace with the arms dealers but the rest of the above still don't like him."
They don't like him, but they don't have to like him. They will work with him, as they know he will serve their interests.
"He actually has the manufactiring interests, small and medium business, regional financial interests, and extractive industries (oil/coal/gas and etc. also) behind him."
If manufacturing interests and small/medium businesses still believe Trump has their interests at heart, they will be disabused of that belief soon enough. I can't speak about "regional financial interests," as I don't know who you mean, but the extractive industries are part of the global corporate structure whose interests do not align with working people's interests, except incidentally/accidentally.
"So given the realistic choice between significantly different lots of businesses backing the available political options, how do you come down on one side or the other? Poxing both their houses, or all possible houses? That conclusion doesnt lead to politics, it leads to being a hermit, or the Unabomber."
Poxing both their houses. I supported Jill Stein and the Green Party. However, if you refer to all "possible" houses, Stein and the Green Party were not it. If you're speaking of possible political options, the American people had no viable choice for someone to serve their interests.
We live in an oligarchy now.
It really is just like a leftist to think about leaders in terms of 'deity'. They tried to deify Obama, the LightBringer, with children singing "Obama's gonna save us, Obama's gonna change the world". Yikes!
It never occurs to them that we voted for the guy because we thought he was the best candidate from among the available candidates - not unlike when you're hiring someone for a job from among the people responding to your job posting.
Robert Cook wrote: In short, Reagan is not like Trotsky like Obama is not like Marx.
Half right is better than completely wrong.
We live in an oligarchy now.
Because of Trump? No, it was that way before!
Evangelicals aren't stupid. They don't have to vote only for evangelicals and Trump didn't run as one. They knew full well who they were voting for - the candidate who was better, in their opinions, just like everyone else did.
Andy Sanberg - Ken Burns joke
(around the 40 second mark)
Quaestor said...
Furthermore I'll lay a wager with the Althousians at large — ten to one sungsong doesn't have the cojones (snark!) to even attempt to answer my challenge.
I think I won my bet.
Checks gladly accepted.
7/9/17, 10:52 AM
sunsong has a good heart. However, she is heavy on feelings and very light on facts and logic.
sunsong said...Trump made himself the judge and the jury, without the benefit of a trial!
If scientists place a full page advertisement proclaiming global warming to be a fact, isn't this without the benefit of a trial?
Are trials really necessary when advertising, or is it fair game to express your opinion, regardless of the outcome?
Well, there you go Robert. There is nowhere to go, no useful politics, or even post-politics (a revolution), if there is no possibility of making alliances with some economic interest or another. The end state of such a purified position is futility.
Beats me. Doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, remind me in any way of Jesus Christ. Don't see it at all. To me he is the antithesis.
Vicki from Pasadena
To me he is the antithesis.
Which would make him .....{church lady voice}...Satan?
In Donald's defense, from the early 70s until the mid 90s, New York City was a dangerous place to live
Robert Cook: "What conspiracy theories? How was Reagon "politically murdered?"
I did not say he "was politically murdered". Only that your side tried.
And your side tried with elaborate conspiracy theories, at least one of which you are notably on record as supporting: "October Surprise".
Or is this the part where, as a standard issue leftist, you strongly desire to whitewash your past comments and airbrush them from history?
Lynch mob leader of the birthers ~ the black man is not American
As always, there is a really interesting discussion to be had, once everybody agrees to ignore Donald Trump's input.
We've been asking, nay pleading with, you to ignore Trump for months now.
exiledonmainstreet,
sunsong has a good heart. However, she is heavy on feelings and very light on facts and logic.
Thanks for the 'good heart' part :-)
I am seeing that you do as well, so something good came from an horrific event.
As for logic and reason (not facts ~ I do like facst :-) :
We liberals, many of us, see 'logic and reason' as spiffy and kewl, but not really a good forever place to hang out and explore :-) We look at 'logic and reason' as a wonderful little box somewhere in the circle of infinity...
We liberals, many of us, see 'logic and reason' as spiffy and kewl, but not really a good forever place to hang out and explore :-) We look at 'logic and reason' as a wonderful little box somewhere in the circle of infinity...
That explains a lot!
"What part of Donald Trump reminds you of Jesus Christ?"
His gesture while speaking, hand raised up, thumb and index finger apart: it's Jesus blessing the people.
Lots of medieval statues show Christ almost just like Trump.
When you think about it, we could be witnessing the Second Coming. No wonder evangelicals are excited.
"What part of Donald Trump reminds you of Jesus Christ?"
Didn't follow the link, sentence above fair warning of lefty onanism in progress.
That's the trouble with political porn - it's exciting and temporarily gratifying but it substitutes fantasies for civic engagement with actual people and their actual beliefs. Sadly, the user eventually has to move on to harder and crazier stuff to get the same charge. (See: catladies in Handmaid's Tale robes getting off on the idea that a president with garden-variety urban liberal views is going to force them all into their favorite Dom/Sub porn scenario.)
We liberals, many of us, see 'logic and reason' as spiffy and kewl, but not really a good forever place to hang out and explore :-) We look at 'logic and reason' as a wonderful little box somewhere in the circle of infinity...
This is your brain on drugs.
Any questions?
Trump and Jesus both have awesome places to live, way up high, with lots of gold everywhere and incredible security, somewhere that I've never seen except in pictures and where I'll probably never go.
Obama is like Marx like Ronald Reagan is like Trotsky.
Readers, you have to ask yourself this: If a Marxist had been in the Whitehouse how would it have been different than Obama?
More energy is a good thing. You just named something that benefits everyone.
The Poles I think are happy they won't have to rely on the Bear for their energy needs.
Like all the leftists on the subject of Trump, he is blinded by his hatred and self-righteousness so much that he could ask such a thing without being able to imagine how the answers could backfire and discredit himself rather than his targets. It's like they say about a lawyer in court should never ask a question for which he doesn't know the answer. Burns can't even imagine the answer, because he never even thought of it. Trump is like Christ because you are not who you imagine yourself to be in that story.
We liberals, many of us, see 'logic and reason' as spiffy and kewl, but not really a good forever place to hang out and explore :-)
Well at least sunsong is able to identify the problem.
Obama did say in one of his books that he hung out with the disenfranchised, one group being Marxists. There was a reason they were disenfranchised in the 80s.
Trump should start wearing sandals...everywhere.
And a crown of thorns would hold that hair in place nicely.
I didn't vote based on any religious reasons.
But I can certainly see why the idea of Hillary in the Oval Office would accord with an atheist's belief that there is no God, no justice, no order, no plan, only random, senseless chaos.
"His gesture while speaking, hand raised up, thumb and index finger apart: it's Jesus blessing the people."
Hahaha! True!
Casting out Pharisees.
Or perhaps it's because the progressives and the press are trying to crucify The Donald.
Do you think Burns would ever ask progressives how Trump is like Satan?
Ann Althouse said...
Would Jesus make a good President?
He wouldn't run for President.
He wouldn't have had to.
" Hmmm,why might evangelicals support Trump and Republicans instead of a political party dedicated to their destruction?"
For over 150 years, the Democrats have been dedicated to the destruction of Black folks, yet have been wildly successful at commanding their support.
So hope springs eternal.
Jewish relatives
What part of Ken Burns reminds you of Leni Riefenstahl ?
By all means, explain to me the 'logic and reason' behind any of the following :-):
Jesus of Nazareth
the resurrection
communion
forgiveness
goodness
evil
Sunsong,
Your questions are worth a lengthy answer, and most of it is in Aquinas' Summa Theologica, and in a whole library that goes with it. It takes an education in Catholic Theology, but its there.
sunsong said...
Thanks for the 'good heart' part :-)
I am seeing that you do as well, so something good came from an horrific event.
As for logic and reason (not facts ~ I do like facst :-) :
Facts inserted here: The New York Times ad
We liberals, many of us, see 'logic and reason' as spiffy and kewl, but not really a good forever place to hang out and explore :-) We look at 'logic and reason' as a wonderful little box somewhere in the circle of infinity...
In order to act in good faith you need to back up your assertions. The as is linked right there. I read it. I don't think you are acting in good faith with your assertions.
sunsong said...
By all means, explain to me the 'logic and reason' behind any of the following :-):
I am going to keep this as short as possible.
Jesus of Nazareth
A translation of the essence of a deity to a mortal realm.
the resurrection
Translation of mortal realm to deific realm.
communion
An analogy allowing Christ to physically make the demonstration of giving something when what he gave is impossible to demonstrate.
forgiveness
An act by an individual that allows them to accept a transgressor.
goodness
The act of allowing and protecting free will.
evil
Hillary.(sort of joking)
Quaestor -- thanks for that link. I'd never read the ad before.
That was back in 1989? Really makes me question the narrative that Trump was always a liberal and is just pretending to have some conservative views (or just came to them quite recently).
Seems more like he was always a conservative, except on the "social" issues -- which is entirely consistent with how he's governing.
As to Ken Burns's question, it reflects a fundamental difference between the left and the right in this country. The left idolizes political leaders. The right idolizes abstract principles. To a large extent, even well-intentioned dialogue between the two sides is becoming a futile exercise in talking past one another. Which really is deserving of the President's frequent Twitter comment: Sad.
What part of Jesus Christ remind you of Donald Trump?
Hillary Clinton could be said to be more Christlike than Donald Trump because not only was she Despised, but she was also Rejected of Men and Acquainted with Grief. As in Trump's case, there the resemblance ends.
Trump wants to teach people how to fish... not phish.
It's weird to think Christians believe they are voting for a god substitute.
Does Ken Burns go to church?
There are a lot of liberals in my church, but none of them ask questions as dumb as this.
And a crown of thorns would hold that hair in place nicely.
It would cut down on the mussing too!
He ran all the cucks out of the temple.
What part of Ken Burns reminds you of Michael Moore?
Certainly not the Oscar part because Burns never won one.
Ken Burns is a talented filmmaker, but his temperament and biases are getting me to wonder whether he has been objective in his various histories. He reminds me a bit of the late Walter Lord, doyen of Titanic historians. Lord let his personal civil rights biases get in the way of his writing. He Was One Of God's Greatest Noblemen
sunsong said...
"He shamefully took out a full-page ad in all of the New York dailies asking for a restoration of the death penalty for two 14-year-old, two 15-year-old, and one 16-year-old innocent children. While New York State laws would not have permitted their execution, just the fact that there was a rush to judgment ought to be complete evidence of how temperamentally unsuited he is for the office he now seeks."
"Innocent children"? If you have four teenagers who are even mentioned in the same breath with the words "death penalty," they must have done something pretty heinous. That little phrase in your quote was enough to peg my bullshit meter to 11.
"'We live in an oligarchy now.'
"Because of Trump? No, it was that way before!"
Yes, it was. And so it remains.
"Readers, you have to ask yourself this: If a Marxist had been in the Whitehouse how would it have been different than Obama?"
Oh, my. You really have no idea. Obama was essentially a liberal Republican.
That's what they wanted to sell, but the Constitutional Scholar of Negative Rights words sez otherwise.
Blogger Bob Boyd said...
"I didn't vote based on any religious reasons.
But I can certainly see why the idea of Hillary in the Oval Office would accord with an atheist's belief that there is no God, no justice, no order, no plan, only random, senseless chaos."
How is Trump any less an agent of chaos?
Robert Cook: 'What conspiracy theories? How was Reagon politically murdered?
"I did not say he 'was politically murdered.' Only that your side tried.
And your side tried with elaborate conspiracy theories, at least one of which you are notably on record as supporting: 'October Surprise.'
Or is this the part where, as a standard issue leftist, you strongly desire to whitewash your past comments and airbrush them from history?"
No, I still believe Reagan's people likely made a quid pro quo deal with Iran, as suggested by the release of the hostages just after Reagan's inauguration. Their willingness to engage in illegal deals with Iran was revealed with the "Iran-contra" scandal.
Both prefer to be referenced with male pronouns.
Well, there was the time he fed the multitude with five loaves and two fish. Didn't have any water, though. Pity.
I'm hard pressed to think of any part of any contemporary politician that reminds me of Jesus Christ (who, by the way, was not a community organizer).
Also I think Jesus was questioned about his taxes - and by a pack of hypocrites.
But how was Hillary a supporter of the working class whom she called Deplorables? and told its members to accept unemployment and life on welfare/opiods as the new normal?
Both had mothers named Mary.
Achilles,
At least you tried :-) They seem more like definitions to me than logic, but hey, you gave it a shot...
I like Einstein:
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will get you everywhere else."
~ Albert Einstein
I read the Trump ad, Sunsong, and this might be one of those "logical' answers that you despise, but he doesn't mention any particular person or persons and never suggests extending capital punishment to minors anywhere in it.
Maybe you came to that conclusion based on extra logical processes that you can't explain?
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will get you everywhere else.
Sunsong and President Trump are much alike.
https://youtu.be/M9BNoNFKCBI
sniff.
"Sunsong and President Trump are much alike."
This is a brilliant observation. And so true. Two huge good hearts uncorrupted by cynicism, negativity, selfishness. Two kind souls who see the suffering of others and ask: "How can I help. What can I do for my country." Two great Americans.
Would I like to have a beer with Sunsong and President Trump? Absolutely. Or, if they prefer, I'd also be happy toss back a few blueberry smoothies together.
They both think they're what sustains the universe in existence.
They both think they're God's gift to a fallen world.
There is nothing Christlike about Trump. But then again Christ wasn't on the ballot. However Lilith was. And fortunately the She-Devil lost.
Oh, my. You really have no idea. Obama was essentially a liberal Republican.
This commentor is not far wrong about what the Republicans are – drastically wrong about what Obama is. The Republican Party is a Progressive party, the Democrat party is a radical Left party, exactly as claimed by Mark Levin on this YouTube video at about 8:57.
Progressivism is a watered down and sanitized 3rd generation American-style version of Marxism. That’s the GOP, who are even now busy trying to figure out a way to keep Obamacare under another name without alienating their base.
These days the Democrats are much closer to the core ideas of Marxism. They even had to collude with the MSM to prevent an avowed socialist(who their base loved) who honeymooned in the old Soviet Union Russia become their party’s nominee for POTUS.
Obama? A radical lefty for sure.
Nothing about Trump reminds me of Jesus Christ. Burns' question, however, reminds me of Peggy Noonan's observation in her article about America's Decadent Leadership Class, "It’s the big fact of American life now, isn’t it? That we are patronized by our inferiors."
Secularist fools of the left cannot begin to imagine why most Evangelical Christians will not vote for their chosen ones. As philosophical materialists, they begin with the assumption that we are ignorant and delusional. Thus, we must equate Trump with Jesus, or some such.
In reality, we consider secular progressive Democrats to be decadent fascists who think nothing of denying our First Amendment rights to further their political dominance. Trump may be decadent, but he does not appear to have the makings of an anti-Christian fascist.
Then there is the other matter of Democrats' affinity for the godless, the grifters and the baby killers, not to mention their profligacy.
Meade,
Hmmm, a nice complement wrapped in an insult. What to do? I think this: if you find yourself near SLC let's have a couple of beers (or smoothies)
"This commentor is not far wrong about what the Republicans are – drastically wrong about what Obama is. The Republican Party is a Progressive party, the Democrat party is a radical Left party, exactly as claimed by Mark Levin on this YouTube video at about 8:57.
Progressivism is a watered down and sanitized 3rd generation American-style version of Marxism. That’s the GOP, who are even now busy trying to figure out a way to keep Obamacare under another name without alienating their base.
"These days the Democrats are much closer to the core ideas of Marxism. They even had to collude with the MSM to prevent an avowed socialist(who their base loved) who honeymooned in the old Soviet Union Russia become their party’s nominee for POTUS.
"Obama? A radical lefty for sure."
Hahahaha! I get it. You're joking...you're having us on, (as the Brits say). Very good. I almost thought you were really hopelessly deluded. The quips about the Republicans being a "progressive" party gave it away! Hahahaha! Soldier on!
Trump is like Jesus in that he tries to speak for everybody and is hated by elites who are out to preserve their unjustified privileges regardless of the pain they cause others.
How's that?
Sunsong,
My intention was to wrap a compliment in another compliment. Not sure what you perceived to be an insult but thanks for the invitation and we'll definitely try to look you up the next time we're in SLC.
Thanks Meade,
I will look forward to that. What did I perceive as an insult?
Sunsong is much like Trump
barf
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