Althouse: "In this city, there’s a lot of killings going on in the street. He was afraid for his life. He was concerned about his safety and surviving."

August 18, 2016

"In this city, there’s a lot of killings going on in the street. He was afraid for his life. He was concerned about his safety and surviving."

Said the grandfather of Sylville Smith, the man shot to death by a police officer in Milwaukee last week.

I'm sympathetic to those who feel a need to carry a gun for self-defense. But it doesn't explain pointing the gun at the cop, which is what we're told the body cam shows Smith doing — not unless the grandfather meant to refer to a fear that the police were the danger to his life. Pointing a gun at a police officer is not a good way to try to preserve your life, but a person can make a bad decision, and I don't know what Sylville Smith had heard and come to believe in his short life. I do know the bad information that was spread when he died in the community where he absorbed his idea of reality.

63 comments:

James said...: For a black man being pursued by the police, pointing a gun at the police may be the only way of preserving his life.; 8/18/16, 12:46 PM
Ken B said...: James is a monster.; 8/18/16, 12:48 PM
traditionalguy said...: The Bad Information was directly spread by $33,000,000 paid out by Hillary's mentor, George Soros, to a campaign groups he hired to inundate the black communities after Michael Brown's death in Missouri as a hands up shooting of a man who was surrendering.

We are under attack by Big Lie psy-ops paid for by Democrat Party operatives seeking our destruction by starting a helter skelter race war. Soros is soul mate of fellow Nazi, Charles Manson.; 8/18/16, 12:51 PM
Robert Cook said...: Any sentient black person in America must hold some degree of fear of being killed by a police officer.; 8/18/16, 12:52 PM
Chuck said...: Add...
...a stolen gun...
...a uniformed police officer...
...an officer who knew the suspect and who was in turn known to the suspect...

A poster child for self-defensive gun rights this is not.; 8/18/16, 12:59 PM
320Busdriver said...: Sylville, from his rap sheet, was practiced in the art of pointing a gun at others, and there are plenty of nice photos of the young man posed with his weapon of choice floating around on the interwebs for us to see. Its a horrible thing that he learned that this was how to act in society, but not surprising given that his father confessed to being a deadbeat dad. This will be repeated ad nauseum everywhere where poverty flourishes and kids are left to raise themselves.

"We've got to have rules and obey them. After all, we're not savages. We're English, and the English are best at everything."; 8/18/16, 1:00 PM
Mike Sylwester said...: I do know the bad information that was spread when he died in the community where he absorbed his idea of reality.

Re-write.; 8/18/16, 1:06 PM
Sebastian said...: "I do know the bad information that was spread" Nice euphemism you used there. Malicious propaganda, more like it.

@tg: "The Bad Information was directly spread by $33,000,000 paid out by Hillary's mentor, George Soros" The Ford Foundation is getting on the act as well. The left wants this.; 8/18/16, 1:08 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: Robert Cook said...

Any sentient black person in America must hold some degree of fear of being killed by a police officer.

No. Just as most sentient people don't hold some degree of fear of being struck by lightning. It is certainly a possibility, and you are welcome to fear it if you so desire. But it is incredibly unlikely, unless you are standing on a hilltop in a thunderstorm ( in the case of lightning ) or engaged in a crime ( in the case of being killed by a police officer ); 8/18/16, 1:08 PM
Curious George said...: "Robert Cook said...
Any sentient black person in America must hold some degree of fear of being killed by a police officer."

Then there must be many times greater for the degree of fear of being killed by another black person, right?

RIGHT?; 8/18/16, 1:12 PM
Brando said...: Didn't see the video, but it boggles the mind that anyone who is armed and encounters the police does not make it their first priority to ensure that the police do not see them as a threat. Set your weapon down, keep hands up and still, and talk calmly--for pete's sake, you know the cops are ready to shoot if they're threatened. Why risk it?; 8/18/16, 1:14 PM
320Busdriver said...: I think I heard somewhere that an apology was offered by a news org. that edited out Sylvilles sisters plea for the animals to burn down the burbs. CNN I think. O what a tangled web

http://gawker.com/youll-never-guess-whos-angry-about-cnn-deceptively-ed-1785416442; 8/18/16, 1:19 PM
Pookie Number 2 said...: I do know the bad information that was spread when he died in the community where he absorbed his idea of reality.

And that's the best illustration of the community's lack of leadership. Other than bigots like Robert Cook, no-one sentient thinks that there are police officers hunting African Americans rather than responding to demonstrated disproportionate violence. Honest African American leadership making this point would do the community a world of good.; 8/18/16, 1:37 PM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: Sounds like that grandfather wasn't much of a good influence.; 8/18/16, 1:39 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Robert Cook said...
Any sentient black person in America must hold some degree of fear of being killed by a police officer.

Ok, let's apply that logic:

Any sentient law-abiding citizen living in city X [Detroit, Chicago, Saint Louis, Oakland, Memphis...etc] must hold some degree of fear of being the victim of a violent crime committed by a young black man.

Fair, or racist? In those cities the violent crime rate is more than 1,500 per 100k people (Detroit's over 2,000 I think), and much of that crime is committed by young black men; that's certainly more than the rate at which police kill black people, right?; 8/18/16, 1:42 PM
Ann Althouse said...: "Didn't see the video, but it boggles the mind that anyone who is armed and encounters the police does not make it their first priority to ensure that the police do not see them as a threat. Set your weapon down, keep hands up and still, and talk calmly--for pete's sake, you know the cops are ready to shoot if they're threatened. Why risk it?"

If you believe the paranoia-inducing propaganda that is being very actively spread.; 8/18/16, 1:46 PM
Ken B said...: AA: "If you believe the paranoia-inducing propaganda that is being very actively spread."

Exactly. Look at comment 1 here by James. What sort of person counsels people to take aim at cops?; 8/18/16, 2:08 PM
jg said...: speaking of illegal violence, i hope this armed robbery victim has a good lawyer.; 8/18/16, 2:11 PM
Brando said...: "If you believe the paranoia-inducing propaganda that is being very actively spread."

If the racialists are hoping to save black men from unnecessary gun deaths, they are failing miserably. But then, maybe they're really about heightening the contradictions or something like that.; 8/18/16, 2:11 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Brando said...Set your weapon down, keep hands up and still, and talk calmly--for pete's sake, you know the cops are ready to shoot if they're threatened

Slight amplification, if I may: don't set your weapon down, drop it immediately and show that your hands are empty. I have read that many people are hesitant to just let go of a pistol (people instinctively want to hold on, aren't used to dropping guns in the dirt, etc), but slowly bending down to place a pistol gently on the ground can look an awful lot like taking up a kneeling/crouching position to shoot, I'd bet. Drop that thing immediately and show empty hands!

Gee, that sounds a lot like recommending people put their empty, open hands up to prevent getting shot, huh?; 8/18/16, 2:26 PM
Brando said...: "Slight amplification, if I may: don't set your weapon down, drop it immediately and show that your hands are empty. I have read that many people are hesitant to just let go of a pistol (people instinctively want to hold on, aren't used to dropping guns in the dirt, etc), but slowly bending down to place a pistol gently on the ground can look an awful lot like taking up a kneeling/crouching position to shoot, I'd bet. Drop that thing immediately and show empty hands!"

That's true--I think it's a natural reaction to not want to drop the gun, partly as it may be seen as a more sudden movement, or it may damage the gun, but in any case whatever you do make sure the cop cannot see you as a threat.

That's my rule whenever I'm pulled over--everything slow, pull as far to the side of the road as possible (so the cop doesn't have to stand in the road to get to your window), make sure the car's interior is lit (and ideally free of clutter) and keep hands where they can see them. You may know you're harmless, but the cop doesn't know you and does know that some percentage of people they stop are crazy and violent.; 8/18/16, 2:34 PM
James Pawlak said...: The death of S. Smith improved: The general safety of others in Milwaukee; And, the human genome.; 8/18/16, 2:36 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: No father should have to fear for his son's life every time he points a gun at a cop.; 8/18/16, 2:38 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Or grandson, whatever.; 8/18/16, 2:39 PM
Tarrou said...: One wonders where kids like Tamir Rice learned that the proper response when a cop shows up is to reach to one's waistband (kneeband?) and yank the nearest thing that looks like a gun. Never mind, one wonders not. Shithead ghetto trash gonna trash.

I love this narrative. Young black men are so endangered by the cops that they have no choice but to get themselves shot by trying to murder policemen!

Once again, black cop, democrat mayor. Milwaukee hasn't been run by a Republican for more than a hundred years. They've had multiple Socialist mayors in that time. Why are blacks so downtrodden in the bluest of the blue cities?; 8/18/16, 3:03 PM
Rae said...: Why isn't there a nationwide advertising campaign, "just say no to drugs"?

"Don't point guns at cops!" Could save a lot of lives.; 8/18/16, 3:10 PM
Left Bank of the Charles said...: "what we're told the body cam shows" ... Do we know definitively that he pointed his gun at the police officer, or is that subject to the Ryan Lochte traumatic mischaracterization rule?

Here's what Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett said about the still taken from the video:
"That still photo demonstrates, without question, that he had a gun in his hand."

There is a difference in terms of justification between having a gun in your hand and pointing your gun at a police officer, even though the police officer is going to feel justified in shooting you in both cases.

One might fairly infer that if the Mayor says one thing is demonstrated without question, the other thing probably isn't so clear.; 8/18/16, 3:11 PM
Brando said...: "Why isn't there a nationwide advertising campaign, "just say no to drugs"?

"Don't point guns at cops!" Could save a lot of lives."

Because that's obviously victim blaming. We have to change the cop culture in this country, so that people can freely point their guns at cops who obviously should know that they did not intend to actually shoot the cops.; 8/18/16, 3:14 PM
Rae said...: Actually, I sort of think they do intend to shoot the cops when they point guns at them. Obviously I'm racist or something.; 8/18/16, 3:17 PM
Anonymous said...: These days every PoC who gets stopped by a cop thinks s/he has the right to ignore the cop's orders. I wonder where they got that idea. Here's yet another case of a black woman driver who's stopped by a white cop for a simple traffic violation, cops an attitude of Black Privilege, and turns it into a criminal case of resisting arrest:

http://americangg.net/female-with-attitude-gets-glass-shattered-by-police-for-refusing-to-lower-windows/; 8/18/16, 3:19 PM
Brando said...: "Actually, I sort of think they do intend to shoot the cops when they point guns at them. Obviously I'm racist or something."

It's ok, it's just your white privilege that assumes aiming a gun at someone suggests some sort of intent. And if you're not white, it's white privilege given to you by the transitive property of the white system--the same one that caused black officers to abuse Freddie Gray, or a Hispanic to shoot Trayvon Martin. White privilege is very pervasive these days.; 8/18/16, 3:24 PM
gspencer said...: ". . . but a person can make a bad decision, and I don't know what Sylville Smith had heard and come to believe in his short life."

Well, it wasn't common sense. If Sylville [what a name!] got his knowledge from the streets, then he dun got short-changed.; 8/18/16, 3:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Robert Cook said...

Any sentient black person in America must hold some degree of fear of being killed by a police officer.

At some level Cookie is correct. Hell, I'm a bald middle-aged white guy. When stopped by the police, I have some reasonable fear of being shot. You don't know that your car doesn't match the description of a fleeing felon, the Cop might have a bad day when you reach for the registration. Car stops are stressful for the police. Bad things can happen when a cop is stressed. I say, yes sir, no sir, and keep my hands where they can be seen. I assume that reasonable black people do so as well...; 8/18/16, 3:37 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: Professor, the man's social media presence shows that he was a petty thug. People who take pictures of themselves with money fanned out in their hand (10s and 20s, probably less than $300 total, a very petty thug) and 9mm pistols probably are worried about getting shot, for good reason.; 8/18/16, 3:38 PM
Todd said...: Brando said...

It's ok, it's just your white privilege that assumes aiming a gun at someone suggests some sort of intent. And if you're not white, it's white privilege given to you by the transitive property of the white system--the same one that caused black officers to abuse Freddie Gray, or a Hispanic to shoot Trayvon Martin. White privilege is very pervasive these days.

8/18/16, 3:24 PM

Actually, I think it all started when they decided that Pluto was no longer a planet. Shit has consequences...; 8/18/16, 3:38 PM
MAJMike said...: Adding a little bleach to the gene pool.; 8/18/16, 3:51 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: There is a difference in terms of justification between having a gun in your hand and pointing your gun at a police officer

That depends on whether or not you drop the gun when told to. Holding a gun and aiming it are two actions that are only a fraction of a second apart.

You don't know that your car doesn't match the description of a fleeing felon, the Cop might have a bad day when you reach for the registration. Car stops are stressful for the police.

I moved to Alabama a couple of weeks after the Oklahoma City bombing. I had bought a used pick-up and rented a u-haul trailer. I forgot to take the dealer tag off the truck to reveal the license plate. So I am stopped by a cop because, 2 weeks after the Oklahoma City bombing, I am towing a u-haul in a truck with no license plate.

The cop had his hand on his gun and was clearly agitated. I, as is my wont, was very polite and kept my hands were he could see them at all times.

Another example of why cops are wary, we had a local cop get gunned down at a traffic stop at 2:00 AM a couple of years ago. The shooter, a local pharmacist. I don't imagine the guy could have looked any more respectable.; 8/18/16, 3:53 PM
Ron Winkleheimer said...: I'm surprised nobody has put this link up yet.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=chris+rock+how+not+to+get+beat+by+the+police&&view=detail&mid=A57000CD339387BECDE1A57000CD339387BECDE1&FORM=VRDGAR; 8/18/16, 3:58 PM
Michael The Magnificent said...: If you believe the paranoia-inducing propaganda that is being very actively spread.

I've seen more than one person on social media insist that white people can point guns at cops without getting shot. As stupid as this thinking is (what cop is going to let himself get shot by a white person just because the person is white?), I think it's an extension of the incorrect thinking that whites and blacks commit crime at the same rate, and that the difference in incarceration rates are a result of racism, because cops / judges / juries let whites get away with the same crimes that they're arresting / convicting blacks for.; 8/18/16, 4:04 PM
walter said...: Fleeing itself is not a good start to things.
I wonder where the mom got the idea the two went to the same high school, knew each other. Or did she make it up?; 8/18/16, 4:11 PM
Michael The Magnificent said...: A good friend is a cop in Milwaukee, where fights and killing seem to occur in city parks far too often. I'll text him from an outdoor concert in the park here in Grafton that, amazing as it sounds, we had a wonderful night of music without a single fight or shooting. No kids running around out of control tripping over people and spilling their drinks or food. Hell, there's never so much as a raised voice!

And when the concert is over, the only thing left are footprints in the grass, with every scrap of garbage deposited in the trash bins.

Why is this kind of behavior too much to ask?; 8/18/16, 4:16 PM
Michael The Magnificent said...: These days every PoC who gets stopped by a cop thinks s/he has the right to ignore the cop's orders.

YouTube is littered with selfie-videos made by Sovereign Citizens (aka Lawful Traveler) during traffic stops refusing lawful orders, seeing their windows getting smashed, and then getting dragged out into the pavement to be put in cuffs and hauled away.; 8/18/16, 5:09 PM
JCC said...: Left Bank of the Charles -

Media reports are that the late Mr Smith was shot in the front of his body, not the back, which would suggest he turned and faced the officer at about the point he got shot. Kind of hard to ignore where on the body the person was shot.

"...police officer is going to feel justified in shooting you in both cases..."

Yes, a cop can shoot a fleeing suspect who is carrying a firearm in some - but not all - circumstances. Cops can also shoot some fleeing suspects who are not seen to be carrying a firearm. Does the fleeing suspect represent a threat to either the cop or other persons, including civilians who may encounter the suspect if the cop fails to apprehend the suspect? So a violent felon, whether armed or not, may be legally arrested via the use of deadly force as a last resort to prevent his escape.

One simple fact typifies nearly every police use of deadly force: the suspect resists arrest and/or fails to follow the instructions of the cop.

And to repeat the thought in another post, does anyone really think cops are going to let violent suspects escape, or allow people to shoot at cops with impunity, because those suspects are white instead of black?; 8/18/16, 5:23 PM
Bob Loblaw said...: Any sentient black person in America must hold some degree of fear of being killed by a police officer.

No, not really. There tens of millions of black people in America who don't get shot by police officers every day. Now, if you're a criminal who thinks pointing your stolen gun at the cops is a good idea, then you probably should "hold some degree of fear".

Statistically if you've committed a felony you're more likely to be shot by the cops as a white guy. The BLM movement is an edifice built on lies ("hands up, don't shoot") and supported by the usual crooked left wing groups (The Ford Foundation, most notably). These people are patsies for the Clinton campaign - after the election their money will dry up and if Clinton is elected, like the Occupy "movement", we'll never hear from them again.; 8/18/16, 5:50 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Michael The Magnificent said...YouTube is littered with selfie-videos made by Sovereign Citizens (aka Lawful Traveler) during traffic stops refusing lawful orders, seeing their windows getting smashed, and then getting dragged out into the pavement to be put in cuffs and hauled away.

Yeah but it's funny when it happens to dumb white people; when it happens to dumb black people it's troubling.

[I immediately though of Sovereign Citizens when I saw the video of Korry Gains' traffic stop...even more so when I read she didn't have a license plate, just piece of paper asserting her right to drive w/o registration.]; 8/18/16, 6:40 PM
Alex said...: Ken B said...
AA: "If you believe the paranoia-inducing propaganda that is being very actively spread."

Exactly. Look at comment 1 here by James. What sort of person counsels people to take aim at cops?

8/18/16, 2:08 PM

Anarchists who hate America. BTW, Anarchists have a proud history going back to the 1880s. Here's an incident:

In 1886, the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions (FOTLU) of the United States and Canada unanimously set 1 May 1886, as the date by which the eight-hour work day would become standard.[51] In response, unions across the United States prepared a general strike in support of the event.[51] On 3 May, in Chicago, a fight broke out when strikebreakers attempted to cross the picket line, and two workers died when police opened fire upon the crowd.[52] The next day, 4 May, anarchists staged a rally at Chicago's Haymarket Square.[53] A bomb was thrown by an unknown party near the conclusion of the rally, killing an officer.[54] In the ensuing panic, police opened fire on the crowd and each other.[55] Seven police officers and at least four workers were killed.[56]; 8/18/16, 6:56 PM
Alex said...: Ann - the point of the paranoia is to cause an all-out war between residents of poor areas and cops. They want a return to 1968.; 8/18/16, 6:59 PM
Michael The Magnificent said...: They want a return to 1968.

Nixon in a landslide?; 8/18/16, 9:52 PM
Alex said...: American cities burning. They want to turn America into Somalia.; 8/18/16, 9:54 PM
Quaestor said...: James wrote: For a black man being pursued by the police, pointing a gun at the police may be the only way of preserving his life.

I don't know anything about James except that he made this comment. I don't know whether it was the product of refection or spur of the moment ranting, however I would not trust James to make change.; 8/18/16, 10:30 PM
William said...: The dogs that don't bark. Why are no responsible black citizens speaking out on behalf of the black officer involved in this shooting. No sentient human being would welcome the sight of Sylville Smith running through their neighborhood with a gun in his hand. The officer behaved properly and bravely. Why can't anyone say that Sylville was in the wrong.......The blue wall of silence is nothing compared to the black wall of solidarity.; 8/18/16, 10:34 PM
Quaestor said...: Any sentient black person in America must hold some degree of fear of being killed by a police officer.

Cookie implies there are non-senient black persons, which is both racist and a non-sequitur.

Any black person who cares more about objective truth than BLM mythologizing will have much more than a degree of fear of being killed by another black person.; 8/18/16, 10:35 PM
William said...: Cops can be abrupt, high handed and even brutal. That's the way of cops. The trick is to keep your interactions with them to a bare minimum........Freddie Gray had over twenty priors. That whole life of crime thing wasn't working out for him. Perhaps the cops treated him badly during some of his arrests. That's what they're paid to do: treat criminals badly. But don't Freddie and now Sylville bear some of the blame. You can really keep your interactions with the cops to a minimum if you don't break the law.; 8/18/16, 10:43 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: @Cook - as another poster above pointed out, statistically, controlling by levels of violent crime, or levels of crime that would legally justify killing someone in self defense, Blacks are slightly less likely, not more likely to be shot by cops. It is almost as if there were a bit of reverse discrimination going on. Which is why you know that the Obama/Lynch DoJ push for racial sensitivity every time a Black gets shot by police is such obviously political theater. Yes, adolescent through twenties Black inner city males are the most likely demographic to be shot by cops, but that is because they are statistically the ones committing, by far, the most violent crimes. And, as Trump pointed out yesterday in his speech, the primary, overwhelming, victims of these violent young Black males are other Blacks in their communities. Yet, they continue to vote Democrat, giving control of the cities they live in to that party for well over a half a century, as the party of slavery, Jim Crow, the Klan, and now welfare has managed to destroy Black families, and, by that, Black communities.

What is chilling to me is the TV show: The First 48 Hours, that we seem to be watching a lot. In an hour, it tends to cover two real murder investigations by real detectives, typically in large cities with large Black communities (most often Miami, Atlanta, New Orleans, and Tulsa). The chilling part is how easily young black males kill (almost always other blacks). The killings involve drug deals gone bad, revenge for being ripped off, losing at dice, wearing the wrong gang colors, wearing gang colors when not entitled, etc. it is mostly black males getting killed, but also a fair number of black women and children. One of the striking things to me is that the victims so often have multiple kids out of wedlock (I remember one woman screaming and cruing "Baby Daddy" repeatedly after his death). And that the families left to grieve inevitably comprise multiple generations of women, their young children, and only a smattering of older males.

The point here is that the primary beneficiaries of policing in poor inner city black communities are black women and children. For every young black male the cops kill there, young black males probably kill hundreds of innocents and not so innocents. You force the cops to step back from enforcing the law in these communities, and more, many more residents of these communities die, as we have seen this last year or so in big cities around this country. The Ferguson Effect. It is real, and is costing black lives. A lot of them. Esp chilling though to me are the recent revelations that George Sorros has been funding a lot of the BLM protests. It is bad enough when black politicians, like Baltimore's Marilyn Mosby and her husband egg their black constituents on, but much worse, I think, when it is billionaire white Democrats.; 8/19/16, 6:25 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I have little doubt that the decedent here was in fear for his life, and, as we essentially learned in Heller, one of our fundamental, God given, rights, is that of self defense, and that primarily requires a gun these days. Of course, he shouldn't have tried to draw down on the cop, or, at a minimum, have a gun in his hand after fleeing the traffic stop. The cop had little reason to believe, at that point, that his own life was not in danger. I have sympathy for the father. But a good part of what killed the son was a result of actions of that father. He brought this son into the world, then didn't make sure that he would be there to raise him properly. Young males have to be domesticated, and their fathers are the primary ones to do this, until this responsibility is passed of to their wives. None of that happened here. Father spent much of the time he should have spent fathering and domesticating his son in prison. And, if he had stayed in school, gotten an education, or a good trade, he might have been able to move his family out of that community, into a much safer one. And, if f he had properly fathered his son, the son would have known not to run away from the cops, and not to have a gun in his hand when caught.; 8/19/16, 6:41 AM
James said...: What sort of person counsels people to take aim at cops?

I didn't counsel anyone to do anything. I said:

For a black man being pursued by the police, pointing a gun at the police may be the only way of preserving his life.

This is not to say that black men should "shoot first and ask questions later" or anything like this. It does not tax the imagination to consider a hypothetical where a police officer wrongly threatens or endangers someone's life; I'd like to think that the right to self-defense applies against wrongful threats to one's life, regardless of the profession of the threatener.

It's generally right to urge caution in police encounters. But not every encounter falls into the general case. The use of lethal force would have been justified to defend the life of Kelly Thomas from police officers who beat him to death on video, no?; 8/19/16, 7:02 AM
James said...: If you believe the paranoia-inducing propaganda that is being very actively spread.

Being unarmed and supine with hands raised didn't stop Kinsey from being shot by a SWAT member.

Being an unarmed 19-month-old in a cradle didn't stop Bounkham Phonesavanh from being hit by a flashbang grenade.

The odds are surely in the favor of the police officer being reasonable in the case of a voluntarily-disarming fugitive, but it's silly to pretend that police officers simply won't hurt you if you don't pose any potential threat to them.

But perhaps you meant the paranoia is in regard to the likelihood of these bad outcomes, and a non-paranoid person should think that bad outcomes are so unlikely as to be completely negligible when making decisions of this kind. As an empirical matter, I wonder if the stats on excessive force (or negligent discharge or whatever) change for encounters that happen at the end of a police pursuit.; 8/19/16, 7:22 AM
JCC said...: @ James -

"...use of lethal force would have been justified to defend the life of Kelly Thomas from police officers who beat him to death on video, no?"

No, it would not have. The officers charged in the Thomas case were all acquitted. As a matter of fact and a matter of law, they are not guilty of any crime in Thomas' death. The jury voted "Not Guilty" after hearing that Thomas had 92 encounters with cops since 1990, including several assaults, one of which he attacked his own grandfather with a fireplace poker. Another was after he made suggestive remarks to a 14 year old girl. The jury also heard that Thomas started using drugs in the 5th grade, took so many drugs that he suffered severe damage to cognitive abilities, and that he was trying to break into cars the night he was arrested. Again, Thomas resisted a lawful arrest, and it took five officers to subdue him. He died from cops kneeling on his chest and compressing his lungs. Many of the injuries he suffered are in fact typical of those who do not meet even bare minimums of nutrition and self-care, as their bones become fragile and their internal organs prone to injury far more than a person with normal health.; 8/19/16, 7:37 AM
JCC said...: @ James -

Kinsey was shot by accident when the (stupid) cop shot at the autistic person next to Kinsey, because supposedly that 2nd person had a firearm and was threatening Kinsey. Kinsey was struck by ricocheting rounds which bounced off the pavement. His injuries derived from an accident, sicne he wasn;t the person being shot at.

The family of Phonesavanh were staying at the home of a (nephew) meth dealer, albeit without knowledge most likely. One cop was charged and again, acquitted of all charges by a jury. The cops were apparently unaware there were children in the house before starting their drug search warrant service.

And these are what? 2 incidents out of millions of police-civilian encounters every year?; 8/19/16, 7:48 AM
Todd said...: James said...
If you believe the paranoia-inducing propaganda that is being very actively spread.

Being unarmed and supine with hands raised didn't stop Kinsey from being shot by a SWAT member.

Being an unarmed 19-month-old in a cradle didn't stop Bounkham Phonesavanh from being hit by a flashbang grenade.

The odds are surely in the favor of the police officer being reasonable in the case of a voluntarily-disarming fugitive, but it's silly to pretend that police officers simply won't hurt you if you don't pose any potential threat to them.

But perhaps you meant the paranoia is in regard to the likelihood of these bad outcomes, and a non-paranoid person should think that bad outcomes are so unlikely as to be completely negligible when making decisions of this kind. As an empirical matter, I wonder if the stats on excessive force (or negligent discharge or whatever) change for encounters that happen at the end of a police pursuit.

8/19/16, 7:22 AM

I seem to recall a study of citizen / police interactions that came to that very conclusion; that late encounter arrests were more violent than early encounter arrests. I.E. those citizens that made the arrest harder on the police (by running, resisting, etc.) were most likely to be involved in a violent take-down either as a direct result of the take-down or a beat-down immediately following the take-down. The incidents of post-arrest beat-downs has gone down [generally] as a result of both body-cams and cellphone cams, but they still occur.

Part of it is that cops are human too though they are expected to be less so, in that if you make them chase you down they are a) under more stress, b) on an excursion high, and c) mad that they had to chase you down resulting [sometimes] in "pay back" for putting them through the extra effort. That is not the total picture as some of the violence was a direct result of the "perp" resisting. If you put up a fight, someone(s) will get hurt.

Some police are indeed "bad cops" but most are trying to do a difficult job. My sympathies for police only go so far though as they chose to do that, they were not forced. They have been specifically empowered with additional rights and protections as a result of their profession and because of that should be held to a higher standard. I also believe everyone is accountable for their actions. Generally BLM has been making poor choices as to which BL shootings they take up and as a result (or maybe by design) is hurting those they claim to stand up for.; 8/19/16, 8:05 AM
Michael The Magnificent said...: Mamas, Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up To Be Gangstas. If 50% of black men have served time in prison by the time they're 30, you need to re-examine how you are (or aren't) raising your own children.

BTW, has BLM managed to champion even one angel? If the cops are just gunning down innocent black people, as they claim, they wouldn't have to resort to martyring violent thugs time and time again.; 8/19/16, 10:47 AM
Rusty said...: Blogger Rae said...
Actually, I sort of think they do intend to shoot the cops when they point guns at them. Obviously I'm racist or something.

The NRA need s to get their asses to the ghetto and start teaching gun safety.; 8/19/16, 12:05 PM
Michael The Magnificent said...: The zombie apocalypse approaches, and the zombies are going to lose.; 8/20/16, 12:23 AM