STEPHANOPOULOS: You know, the police say that didn't happen and all those rumors have been on the Internet for some time. So did you meek -- misspeak yesterday?If it was "it was well covered at the time," there should be video clips. The Trump campaign should have that up for us by now. It's hard to prove that something didn't happen, and one could theorize that the media and law enforcement might have reason to suppress this news, but those who say it did happen should have video. Trump isn't saying that a handful of people cheered from across the Hudson River in Jersey City. He's saying "thousands and thousands." There should be video of that. Let's see it.
TRUMP: It did happen. I saw it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You saw that...
TRUMP: It was on television. I saw it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- with your own eyes.
TRUMP: George, it did happen.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Police say it didn't happen.
TRUMP: There were people that were cheering on the other side of New Jersey, where you have large Arab populations. They were cheering as the World Trade Center came down. I know it might be not politically correct for you to talk about it, but there were people cheering as that building came down -- as those buildings came down. And that tells you something. It was well covered at the time, George. Now, I know they don't like to talk about it, but it was well covered at the time. There were people over in New Jersey that were watching it, a heavy Arab population, that were cheering as the buildings came down. Not good.
STEPHANOPOULOS: As I said, the police have said it didn't happen.
Trump has a way of spinning out numbers. Just on that one show:
1. The number of dead in the Paris attacks will rise because "you have 300 people laying in the hospital, many of them dying, they'll be added to the list of the people killed, and we have no idea. "
2. The number of Syrian refugees Obama wants to let into the country "is much higher than 10,000. I've heard it's 200,000... I've even heard 250,000 people." (Stephanopoulos inserts "that number is all refugees, not from Syria.")
3. The number of people coming to his speeches multiplies as he speaks: "I get crowds of 6,000, 10,000, 20,000. I had a 35,000 crowd..." And, correspondingly, the numbers for other candidates drops: "Nobody else can get 20,000. I mean Jeb Bush and these guys, Kasich goes out, he speaks, if he gets 20 people in ma room, it's a lot of people."
It's fine to use numbers, but they'd better be fairly close to right or you sound like a lunatic.
Posts
128 comments:
The linked transcript says "Nobody else can get 200,000" but that's not what he said. I watched the show. He said "Nobody else can get 20,000." Even he doesn't get 200,000. He says some wild things, but that's not one of them.
He saw it.
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/11/when-the-press-attacks-donald-trump-the-truth-is-optional.php
The media lies.
Thank God, another President who gets his "facts" from the TV news. We are saved!
@Michael K
2 problems with that. It says "In Jersey City, within hours of two jetliners’ plowing into the World Trade Center, law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the attacks and holding tailgate-style parties on rooftops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river."
1. Allegedly seen means there were reports of it, but that doesn't explain how Trump could have watched it. That doesn't say it was on television.
2. Trump said "thousands and thousands" and the news report Powerline found says "a number of people."
It makes sense to assume there were some people watching 9/11 in the United States who were celebrating, but Trump need to explain saying that he SAW thousands and thousands.
Are these police saying it didn't happen the same racist police This Week types say are systematically targeting minorities, or are these just the credible police?
The news media has an obligation to tell the truth.
Trump does not.
Stephanopoulis is a democrat operative given a prime time news slot.
That is where your outrage should lie.
Maybe stephanolpoulis will question Obama about his stupid 'widows and orphans" jibe. Obama does not know who these Syrian refugees will be.
I wonder whether he's conflating small numbers of people in the United States celebrating the attacks with images of thousands of Palestinians dancing in the streets.
Hey! I just now tried to use your Amazon portal to go Christmas shopping, and it hung up. Thought you'd like to know.
He sore it.
Sorry, George S. is a former Clinton Press Secretary whose also a donor to the Clinton Library Foundation. I don't trust a word he says. The MSM is full attack mode. When they aren't out right lying about him, they are misrepresenting him.
Another more clever angle is to take an ambiguous statement or a statement with lots of qualifiers and then report that its a absolute, extreme statement. Trump says "he heard" it was up to 200,000. Ok, so what is he talking about? Per year or in total? And given the qualifier "he heard", he's already admitting it may be wrong.
The same is true of the Arabs cheering. George S. says the "police" say that's untrue. The "police"? Why would the police know if Arabs in NJ were cheering 911? And trump doesn't say "thousands" in his interview. That's an obvious exaggeration, which I suppose means he's liar.
Trump is the only GOP candidate I would never vote for. He isn't a conservative. He's not even a RINO.
His one issue is immigration. The fact that none of the other GOP candidates will take up a Trump-like position on immigration -- no amnesty, no green card, no guest worker program, a hiatus on immigration from Latin America -- shows you how tight a grip the US Chamber of Commerce has on the GOP nomination process.
Don't be a Trump chump.
Did Trump watch "thousands and thousands of people" in Jersey City, New Jersey "cheering" as the World Trade Center came down?
This is what fact-checkers are for, and Fact Checker says no.
Ann Althouse said...
"It makes sense to assume there were some people watching 9/11 in the United States who were celebrating, but Trump need to explain saying that he SAW thousands and thousands."
We all saw thousands of Muslims celebrating on TV. They were celebrating in numerous countries. Jersey City had celebrations as well. These things happened. It is abhorrent but these people are really saying these things and supporting these actions.
Ann; You need to go visit a country that is culturally dominated by the religion of Islam. You need to see how they live, how they treat their people, what they do to their women. They aren't going to cut you any slack because you are willing to lie about their actions. They aren't even lying about it. They are parading it right in front of you and you lie to yourself.
Get out of your bubble for just 2 minutes and see what is going on in the world. How long has it been since you have seen any actual violence in person? This ignorance is endangering all of us.
Big Mike - the only way I can get it to work is to use the bottom button "View these results on Amazon.com", or, if you have not entered a search term "View More Products on Amazon.com".
Trump sounds like a lunatic because he is one. What the heck has happened to Republicans that they would glom onto such a buffoon? Do you seriously think this man should be allowed to lead the most powerful nation on earth?
I recall videos of untold numbers Paleostinians celebrating 9/11 in Paleostein and so I believe that the twisted sentiments were there. I was unaware that sympathizers had cheered in this country. It's not a stretch, given the brazenness of the traitors and their enablers in the media.
The - or at least a - point of Trump's camp[aign is that he is campaigning against people who say he "needs to explain" this or that.
Big Mike said...
I wonder whether he's conflating small numbers of people in the United States celebrating the attacks with images of thousands of Palestinians dancing in the streets.
Best explanation so far.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You know, the police say that didn't happen and all those rumors have been on the Internet for some time. So did you meek -- misspeak yesterday?
And yet it did happen -- the only thing in question now is how many.
Trump is way ahead in the GOP polls, therefore it is media's role to try to take him down. And this go round it is also approved by the GOP establishment.
His loose portrayal of what happened will not lower the voting public's approval of him.
This is beautiful to behold; the MSM openly showing their politics in a desperate attempt to ding the Donald.
Obama being interviewed by his favorite newsman, Nov. 15, 2015:
“I don't think they're gaining strength,” the president told Stephanopoulos in an interview at the White House Thursday. “From the start our goal has been first to contain, and we have contained them. They have not gained ground in Iraq. And in Syria it -- they'll come in, they'll leave.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/president-obama-vows-completely-decapitate-isis-operations/story?id=35173579
Except containment was not the goal 'from the start.'
Obama's remarks during a NATO news conference, Sept. 14, 2014:
"PRESIDENT OBAMA: You can’t contain an organization that is running roughshod through that much territory, causing that much havoc, displacing that many people, killing that many innocents, enslaving that many women. The goal has to be to dismantle them."
. . .
"But what we can accomplish is to dismantle this network, this force that has claimed to control this much territory, so that they can’t do us harm. And that’s going to be our objective."
. . .
"And Secretary Kerry will now travel to the region to continue building the broad-based coalition that will enable us to degrade and ultimately destroy ISIL."
. . .
"So there’s great conviction that we have to act as part of the international community to degrade and ultimately destroy ISIL. And that was extremely encouraging."
This is orwellian. This kind of lying, aided and abetted by a compliant, pro-Obama news media is a real problem. Trump's blathering is not a real problem.
Ann:
I'm waiting for the media to apply the same standards to Hillary as it does to Trump. Donald was close enough per the story Hinderaker found. Why didn't ABC find the WaPo story? Heck, same corporate parent. Are we quibbling over the NJ town and the meaning of the word "mass?"
And Georgie S has donated thousands to the Clinton Foundation. He is a COMPLETE Dem shill. He has less than zero credibility with me.
Althouse gets the vapors if the Donald conflates cheering muslims in Jersey with videos of Palestinians cheering 911, but votes twice for the guy who told her he was conceived by horny parents in Selma 4 years before it happened and that "if you like your plan, you can keep your plan"
He may be conflating it with the footage that was shown of Palestinians celebrating in East Jerusalem.
Althouse, did you ever sneer at Hillary for saying she came under sniper fire at Tuzla?
For saying she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary?
Or that she tried to join the Marines?
Or that she gained $100K trading cattle futures?
Or for adopting a faux southern black accent when she said, "I ain't noways tiiiiired..."
Give us a break! You're in the tank for Hillary, no matter what.
IOW you are deep into Hillary Hackdom.
Georgie said...
Trump sounds like a lunatic because he is one. What the heck has happened to Republicans that they would glom onto such a buffoon? Do you seriously think this man should be allowed to lead the most powerful nation on earth?
If Trump is the nominee and Hillary is the other choice, I'm voting for Trump. I suspect that a majority of people feel the same way.
Trump does exaggerate in his verbiage but that doesn't mean he is wrong about the total picture. For instance the "moderate" Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf said the US was "an accessory" to 9-11 and that OBL was made in the USA. The imam essentially said we deserved 9-11.
And seriously, Althouse -- you need to recuse Stephanpoulus from presidential politics altogether. His presence is like having Karl Rove doing the reporting. Why can't you see that?
And here's the other thing that is way more dangerous. Many public opinion polls show a significant percentage of Muslims in foreign countries agree with the actions of ISIS and AQ. They just aren't personally cutting off heads and bombing.
The central point is this: Name another religion that has violence as a core religious belief. That's the BIG thing.
Islam needs to be reformed and I don't think it is possible. It is just contrary to the West.
Trump makes people who think Trump's a lunatic look lunaticic. I heard Limbaugh talking about this and it makes sense.
Many of these media people are unable to think beyond the most basic levels, so when they hear words from someone they don't like, and they don't like them to the extent of feeling physical repulsiveness towards the class of person e.g. Joe the Plumber or David Duke or the Buckley character on Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt represent, they don't give thought or have the capability to notice the order the words appear or any modifiers or negating terms. They are only capable at this point of celebrating the great "get" their bullshit "gotcha" moment is surely going to inspire.
Most important traditionally is to never use original sources if possible, just make shit up and assume the truths boots laces are dirty and need cleaning before the whole "getting laced up" part embarks across the oceans.
Old, disturbingly so when slobbering and spittling all over the set attempting to get the words out, Tom Brokaw can't see this Trump and why Brokaws buddies are powerless to character-murder him, because he is an old slobbering paid-off bigot, unlike I presume those here.
Yet in any case, first slow down, allow neutrality to remain so without any modifications, and see genius winning in action with each Trump appearance. Like the fella in Tombstone says, "no talk, just--yeah."
Trump can say some bullshit, just like Hillary, and when "caught" he doesn't care; it's a crappy little game to him and the voters, not at all serious and in that respect much like the faux credibility of pundits and companies pounded hard into every brain aware lacks seriousness compared to the effect of the "anchors" in 1976.
This should and must drive all Leftists into their ultimate destination's grip, one lacking any and all sanity. All the Terry Linnox' laughing at the stupidity of the Phil Marlows sounds like now is the opening to that one Pink Floyd song with the crazy laughter guy laughing all crazy.
What difference at this point does it make?
"Donald was close enough per the story Hinderaker found."
No, he wasn't.
Georgie said...
"Trump sounds like a lunatic because he is one. What the heck has happened to Republicans that they would glom onto such a buffoon? Do you seriously think this man should be allowed to lead the most powerful nation on earth?"
Lets roll some tape...
"If you like your plan you can keep your plan. If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor."
"The average family will save $2500 a year in health costs because of the ACA."
"I am very optimistic about -- about Iraq. I mean, this could be one of the great achievements of this administration. You're going to see 90,000 American troops come marching home by the end of the summer. You're going to see a stable government in Iraq that is actually moving toward a representative government," said Biden.
"Did I wipe the server? Like with a cloth or something?"
“Let’s be clear, though. Islam is not our adversary. Muslims are peaceful and tolerant people and have nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism.”
Anyone who thinks Hillary should be President is an enemy of freedom and decency.
@MaxedOutMama, I used the upper box to select "Toys and Games" and hit return. It went into a never ending loop.
Lets take two quotes and decide who is more in touch with reality.
"There were people that were cheering on the other side of New Jersey, where you have large Arab populations. They were cheering as the World Trade Center came down. I know it might be not politically correct for you to talk about it, but there were people cheering as that building came down -- as those buildings came down. And that tells you something. It was well covered at the time, George. Now, I know they don't like to talk about it, but it was well covered at the time. There were people over in New Jersey that were watching it, a heavy Arab population, that were cheering as the buildings came down. Not good."
Or;
“Let’s be clear, though. Islam is not our adversary. Muslims are peaceful and tolerant people and have nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism.”
If you believe Muslims are peaceful, please move to any Muslim country and take your ignorance and stupidity with you. You are endangering us all.
Ann Althouse said...
"Donald was close enough per the story Hinderaker found."
"No, he wasn't."
Only if you are lying to yourself.
@Althouse, yes he was.
Re the number of immigrants: Trump's 200m that he heard is just as right as anyone else's number. Obama's team may know but they are not telling anyone. Or, if they are telling the media, the media is not listening.
I hear numbers all over the map and I seem to recall having hear numbers as high as 200m and as low as a few thousand.
We are being fed bullshit and we are fed up with being fed bullshit. That is why trump is polling 40% or so in a field of a dozen candidates.
Fuck them. Fuck the repo party that is going to do whatever it takes make sure that only an approved (meaning in the tank) candidate is approved. No matter what voters want.
The more this goes on, the more I like Trump. I would even consider breaking my cardinal rule against giving to candidates if he were accepting donations.
I think Paul would make a far better president and he is my first choice but I doubt that is going to happen. I like Cruz almost as much but he has citizenship issues.
At the moment it looks like Trump and that is just fine with me.
I may be spending the fall in Menomenee. How much time do I need to be there to register to vote? Perhaps I'll get a chance to vote Trump.
I am ashamed to admit that my only other vote in a presidential election was McGovern. I need to do something to atone.
John Henry
Big Mike wrote: "I wonder whether he's conflating small numbers of people in the United States celebrating the attacks with images of thousands of Palestinians dancing in the streets." Bingo! But will Donny ever say he's sorry for making a boneheaded mistake like that? Uh, no.
Maybe not thousands..
But.
I am Laslo.
Slightly off topic:
I am reading Jon Meacham's new bio of George HW Bush. I am up to about 1991 now. Talk about damning with faint praise!
Bush comes across as a decent and honorable man but basically an empty husk when it comes to beliefs. the only reason he wanted to be VP was so he would be in a good position to become prez. The only reason he wanted to be prez was so he "could get things done". No core beliefs about what things, just wanted to accomplish stuff.
Great book and I recommend it.
Here is the Trump connection: In 1988, Trump spoke with Bush's people about being his VP candidate. I'd not realized his ambitions went so far back.
Perhaps with a Trump poking and prodding Bush would have been a better president. It is also unlikely that we would be having this conversation today.
John Henry
BTW, Trump didn't say on ABC that he watched "Thousands cheer" - he said he saw some people cheer.
My sister, who is an RN, was called into work that night. To get to her northern New Jersey hospital, she had to drive through a large Palestinian community. That night, not 25 miles from Ground Zero, she encountered members of that community having a celebratory block party.
Finally, within 24 hours after the March there arose a conflict about crowd size estimates between March organizers and Park Service officials. The National Park Service issued an estimate of about 400,000 attendees,[6] a number significantly lower than March organizers had hoped for.
People remember crowds in different ways. Heat of a Moment, perhaps.
I am Laslo.
"This is what fact-checkers are for"
The so-called MSM "fact checkers" have been shown to be biased and wrong time and time again.
I don't trust MSM "Fact checkers" unless some else has fact-checked THEM.
I'm guessing that J. Farmer is right – Trump is confusing the reports of small numbers celebrating in Jersey with reports of large numbers celebrating in Jerusalem.
Looks like he did. Unless you've never been to a football game and seen a tailgate party.
Its important to understand that any islamists celebrating the destruction on 9-11 has absolutely nothing to do with islam.
At all.
Clearly.
Plus any who might have been elebrating were only doing so in response to republican rhetoric.
And colonialism.
And the crusades.
Well Ms. Althouse Hillary wasn't close enough by a country mile on sniper fire, tried to join the Marines etc. So folks will, correctly, yank your chain for use of a double standard. Trump is as unsuitable as Hillary and Obama for the post of POTUSA.
The Hillary brigade is really quite put out by Trumps imprecision.
And Trump doesnt even possess the reproductive equipment necessary to ameliorate any "imprecisions".
Perhaps Ann could instruct her adult son that reading something printed in the WaPo doesn't necessarily make it so. Fact-checking by the newspaper lists some sources, such as Debbie Schlussel's blog, as conspiratorial. Schlussel says that the celebrations were shown on MTV but the Washington Post did not follow-up on that lead. And the WaPo missed the article found by Power Line.
It was more hyperbole than a lie. Hyperbole is part of Trump's brand. From what I remember the Palestinians and other Arabs were quite jubilant about 9/11. Arafat put the ixnay on the street celebrations and even donated blood to show his concern, but every sane person in the world knows that the Moslems throughout the world took quite a lot of joy in this event. I think Trump was closer to the truth than Stephanopoulos. It's quite a big lie to say that Muslims throughout the world are our friends and wish us well.
I am not advocating for Hillary. Saying Hillary is worse is hardly relevant to this discussion.
Chicklet,
I think you're way off the mark. If Trump and Hillary are the nominees, you'll see a Democratic landslide win.Trump is one scary man, most rational people are repulsed by the stuff he spuouts. I asked what happened to Republcans because they seem to have gone off the deep end with their front runners.
It was more hyperbole than a lie. Hyperbole is part of Trump's brand. From what I remember the Palestinians and other Arabs were quite jubilant about 9/11. Arafat put the ixnay on the street celebrations and even donated blood to show his concern, but every sane person in the world knows that the Moslems throughout the world took quite a lot of joy in this event. I think Trump was closer to the truth than Stephanopoulos. It's quite a big lie to say that Muslims throughout the world are our friends and wish us well.
Come to Jesus, Althouse!
Are you for Hillary, or aren't you???
Where are your posts to Hillary about what she said untruthfully???
COME...to....JESUS!
Laslo, you link to video showing people in east Jerusalem, not in the U.S.
I don't doubt that there were some people in the U.S. Who felt the same way. I'm questioning whether they were on TV where Trump could have seen them in the thousands. He said that and repeated it forcefully under questioning. I find that very strange.
Althouse: "I am not advocating for Hillary. Saying Hillary is worse is hardly relevant to this discussion."
This is pure bullshit deflection. I didn't say Hillary is worse, I asked YOU why YOU did not go after her for HER numerous and MANIFEST falsehoods.
Go ahead...just put up the dates of your posts slamming Hillary for her bullshit lies.
Ann Althouse said...
I am not advocating for Hillary. Saying Hillary is worse is hardly relevant to this discussion.
I find that odd, especially coming from a person who repeatedly stated that she voted for Obama because McCain was a worse choice.
"Saying Hillary is worse is hardly relevant to this discussion."
If Trump were conservative it would be extremely relevant.
There is a difference between electing a liar who will leave you alone and a liar who wants to control every aspect of your existence.
Trump was right about people in New Jersey celebrating. The argument now was about how many. The hooker said, "What do you think I am" when the mark offered $50. He replied, "we have established that. Now we are dickering about price."
Trump has been emboldened to use hyperbole with abandon because his fans want to believe his outlandish exageratiions. Why are they not demanding details and policies? Why are his fans allowing him to slip slide way from questions about his grand plans for making America great again? Why do his fans accept his ridiculous retort of "It will be done by good management" to any request for details?
Hillary is completely relevant.
She has lied repeatedly about major matters and the MSM covers for her. MSM, on the hand, goes after Trump for nothing.
Read the book "Clinton Cash" and consider what we know about her email. She's a criminal who has never been indicted.
I fear Hillary! more than any name you can pull out of the phonebook.
Hillary has been emboldened to use hyperbole with abandon because her fans want to believe her outlandish exaggerations. Why are they not demanding details and policies? Why are her fans allowing her to slip slide way from questions about her grand plans for making America great again? Why do her fans accept her ridiculous retort of "What difference does it make?" to any request for details?
****
See how easy it is to play that stupid game?
Michael K,
"Trump was right about people in New Jersey celebrating. The argument now was about how many. The hooker said, "What do you think I am" when the mark offered $50. He replied, "we have established that. Now we are dickering about price.""
And yet... if someone tried equating the single Green Bay spectator who disrupted the moment of silence by shouting "Muslims suck!" with the numerous Turkish spectators who disrupted their moment of silence by booing and chanting Turkish nationalistic and Muslim chants, I'm quite certain most conservatives here would say that it's not the same thing and the difference in numbers do in fact matter.
"Big Mike said...
I wonder whether he's conflating small numbers of people in the United States celebrating the attacks with images of thousands of Palestinians dancing in the streets.
11/22/15, 6:44 PM"
Yep.
He's right that he saw thousands of muslims dancing and cheering in the streets.
He's right that there were reports of people in Jersey City cheering as they watched the towers fall.
And fourteen years later, he's confused the two.
Trump was *wrong*, and he should issue a correction, but it's an understandable error when he's speaking off-the-cuff.
The BIG problem here -- and it is BIG -- is that the Washington Post Fact Check on this is an outright, baldfaced, indefensible lie.
They had all the time in the world to do the research and check their facts, and they tell us that they did. Today, the Washington Post tells us repeatedly that there were no reports of cheering in Jersey City on 9/11. But at the time, the Washington Post itself reported that there were. It's not even possible to save face for the Washington Post by saying that their previous reports in 2001 were mistaken. They are now asserting that no such reports existed. This is double-plus-ungood.
(Hat Tip: Power Line )
@John Henry: I haven't read, and probably won't read, Jon Meacham's new bio of George HW Bush. But I did read GW Bush's memoir of his father, "41", and it left me with the firm conviction that the two Bush Presidents (and Prescott Bush, the father of 41 and the grandfather of 43) were good men, devoted to doing their best for their country and community, with conservative inclinations, but utterly lacking a philosophic foundation. Under normal circumstances, leaders like this would be what we need. But today, to begin reversal of the ideology-driven effects of 8 years of Obama, we need a candidate whose positions are firmly based on conservative principles. That's not Jeb, and it's certainly not Tromp, but it might be Rubio, it might be Cruz.
"Why are his fans allowing him to slip slide way from questions about his grand plans for making America great again? "
Why are Hillary fans not calling out her lies ?
You have to credit Trump with making people aware that people were openly celebrating 9/11 in the US and not just in East Palestine. This wasn't the case 24 hours ago. This helps his stance on opposing unassimilable subspecies of Muslims, or whatever Dems choose to call them.
Fake but accurate?
"Trump has been emboldened to use hyperbole with abandon because his fans want to believe his outlandish exageratiions."
I expect something similar is going on with those who believe Obama when he says that the potential Syrian refugees are all harmless 'widows and orphans.'
Trump has previously stated that he was in his apartment in Trump Tower on the morning of 9/11, which means if he saw this on TV he was watching some channel available only to him. It's curious that he thinks it's good politics to make this kind of claim.
Ann Althouse said...
I am not advocating for Hillary. Saying Hillary is worse is hardly relevant to this discussion.
Unless someone wants to broaden the discussion. Broadening it does not bother me. I agree that it seems that Trump's statement was inaccurate. He's either a misremembering or exaggerating. Exaggeration seems more likely to me. It's a trait of Trump's that gets him into trouble.
But is it a lie? I don't see it that way. Hillary, on the other hand, has lied for decades about matters far more serious than sniper fire. So if the discussion is about what disqualifies someone from being President, Hillary's lies are absolutely part of the discussion.
I would give just about anything if some news drone were to ask Hillary how many times she thinks that Bill has cheated on her.
I bet the drones are slavering at the thought of asking Melania Trump questions like that about her marriage to Trump.
@Althouse: You are right in detail but wrong in what counts. You are probably correct that Tromp didn't see thousands of NJ muslims celebrating the fall of the Twin Towers. He probably heard/read about hundreds doing so, or allegedly doing so. So what? We are not engaged in a search for ontological truth; we are engaged in an election campaign.
A lot of Americans are convinced that radical Islamist exremists are a serious threat and that for 7 years this country has been led down a path to weakness, danger, and fecklessness in the face of that threat. Right now the public focus is on thousands of "Syrian" refugees that Obama and Clinton and their allies in the media want to admit to this country. Obama says we can trust his government to "vet" the refugees. This is the same government that told us we could keep our doctors, that told us they would fund shovel-ready jobs, that told us the "ISIL" was a JV and was "contained". We are told by Mrs. Clinton that all Muslims are peaceful, so there's no problem in letting more of them into the country. Clinton's statement is such complete and utter bullsh*t that it makes Tromp's exaggerations fade into insignificance.
I don't want Tromp to be the Republican nominee. I think he lacks principle to the same extent, but in different ways, as the Bushes. But he is playing these issues brilliantly. I hope that Rubio, Cruz, or Christie (I don't see any other realistic prospects) can rise to the challenge of refuting the Obama/Clinton BS, while offering a realistic prospect for addressing the challenges the US faces.
Ann Althouse said...
Fake but accurate?
Strangely, neither. Not accurate in any particulars but not fake because there were undoubtedly Muslims in NJ who were pleased by the attack. Including the associates of the people who planned the first attack on the WTC. In New Jersey.
So, with all the equating of Trump and Hillary, are people here saying that anyone who votes for either one are gullible dupes?
Trump seems to be confusing video of celebrants around the world with New Jersey celebrants.
In my wife's office in Tornto one woman cheered. In a friend's office in Paris several cheered. Thousands cheered, we saw many on Tv and I am sure some were in NJ.
LASLO'S point about remembering and estimating crowds is excellent.
Unlike Glenn Kessler, George Stuffinenvelopes and Ann Althouse, Trump likely was in New York on 9/11. Yet all claim the right to know what he saw.
Terry at 9:58
Number of times Bill has cheated on Hillary?
Over or under 1,000 is the early Vegas line.
Trump doesn't just wanna win in a landslide, which of course he will*, he in fact has fun, indeed he enjoys himself thoroughly, when not rubbing the noses of his lying detractors in his droppings but instead ignoring the spectacle he helped ignite of these miscreants filthing themselves for naught, as it showcases the lying detractors for what they are in their natural environment, and that peculiar mindset of a neutered entity acting as if potent using extreme derision, by those who revel in things decent people would rather not concern themselves with had the monopoly on violence (taxpayer funded) called Government not repeatedly shown itself unable to do anything with sense but instead merely act miserably abusing the same-old same-old power differential dynamics as those before them, not a better angel of Lincoln's nature in their sight or mind to guide and influence.
When you remember the United States of America poisoned 10000 Americans to death by contaminating previously potable alcohol you have a basis for understanding state power and its inevitable uses to empower those stated as Government. This is neither good nor bad, just fact, hence ought be recognized by all but the 40% of the voters who like Obama's pathology.
Even when understandably blinded with cash and guilt, those whom should know that ^^power corrupts^^ find themselves pretending to listen to words instead of accounting for actions, and lye to themselves this pretend listening is what good people do as opposed to the bad, the bad being people who account*.
*Trump had a lot more to lose than gain by running, paradigmly-different from every other candidate, and recklessly unmentioned by any of you reading this because you aren't that bright when it comes to politics, but you have a better life than I do so don't feel bad or worthless, just regurgitate my words until they infest your political thoughts undetected.
**Accounting says piss on the hyper-politicized; alternately focus on the low info voters, the REAL AMERICANS, or at least more real than me, who vote and don't know how many Senators the U.S. has at the Federal level or if Elena Kagan makes furniture or wine. And you focus on them by not speaking like anyone at the WaPo or NYT or Althouse would appreciate but instead likely feel insulted by to the point of defensive nature becoming suddenly*** apparent.
***Simply the defensive nature was always there, but only in hindsight, and that moment that that was realized was a sudden epiphany, or actually I guess just an 'epiphany' where that specific word wasn't used so "suddenly" wasn't redundant or extra but instead essential.
What if Trump intentionally inflated the number just to get the MSM talking about it. If it were a smaller number, they would ignore it completely. Now, they are talking about it. This then lets Trump point out that these kinds of issues are why the country needs to take a harder look at all immigration.
This is similar to Trump's initial blast about crimes committed by illegal aliens. The media is loathe to report any, but since Trump overstated its prevalence, they have since had to at least concede its existence.
Georgie said...
So, with all the equating of Trump and Hillary, are people here saying that anyone who votes for either one are gullible dupes?
I don't see people equating the two; I see inequality signs: Trump < Hillary
BTW, anyone else notice that Althouse put "cheering" in scare quotes in her headline?
Ann Althouse said...
"Fake but accurate?"
Are you seriously trying to claim that large numbers of Muslims were not celebrating 9/11?
SukieTawdry said...
"My sister, who is an RN, was called into work that night. To get to her northern New Jersey hospital, she had to drive through a large Palestinian community. That night, not 25 miles from Ground Zero, she encountered members of that community having a celebratory block party."
Block Parties are not small. The only reason to not report it is to allow people like you to lie to yourself.
At some point you are going to have to swallow your pride and admit the press lied to you and you fell for it.
Trump may be referring to seeing Television reports that celebration by Muslims was part of the res gestae of the infamous Day. Obviously he is not claiming that he was in his Trump Helo hovering over New Jersey.
But I would believe Trump's memory of what he saw before I would believe in a likely sounding lie of a professional political narrative spinner. The odds are 99 to 1 Trump told the truth.
Also we need to consider the implications of time travel and the scenarios about which one could be in a position to make an informed decision, as could be defined reasonable at the time, when venturing out on typist's waves.
This is in regards to killing "Hitler."
But if time travel were possible, how could you, the one chosen to "kill" the baby, know any of the multitudes of reasons why you shouldn't, unless you somehow do.
If so, how?
Everything about everything was just thrown out the door, but you know you should, first, only really, thing, go and kill a damn baby?
What in God's name does killing a fabled baby, when time travel is considered, have to do with Jeb Bush's fitness to be POTUS?
The only conclusion is killing any baby is good publicity for Leftists, it somehow changes the collective conscious from "selling baby organs and limbs like the brain of a baby, the heart of a baby, the lungs of a baby, the other 'tissue' of a baby", millions of times since Obama was elected and most likely millions of times before that, repeated, as long as the person choosing to have the abortion (frequently the pimp or uncle of the underaged of course) has political backing, is capitalism foremost.
There is money, money talks, don't be a hypocrite.
The average CEO pay looks less and less hypocritical the closer inspected forensically.
Sure looks worse socioeconomically though, like a hertz donut.
The CEO might have a government gun at her head and drink like a lawyer, the biggest white collar drinkers of them all, and still keep saving jobs.
Of course. Could happen. Anything's possible. You don't know what could or might have happened, so shutting any bias your mouth exudes might prevent uncomfortable John Doe dreams, capiche?
Georgie said...
So, with all the equating of Trump and Hillary, are people here saying that anyone who votes for either one are gullible dupes?
11/22/15, 10:21 PM"
For Trump maybe, for Hillary, definitely. As for your earlier comment regard a landslide election if it comes down to Hillary and Trump, yes it will be a landslide but a landslide in favor for Trump. What everyone trying to "get" Trump misunderstand is that Trump exaggerates but at the core an exaggeration requires an element of truth whereas Hillary just flat out lies, there being no core of truth in anything she says.
Hammond pays little attention to Trump and gives no credence whatever to Stephanopolous.
"Unless someone wants to broaden the discussion"
LOL. Shouting squirrel is not broadening the discussion.
Patterico notes a Trump flaw.
America should learn from the Obama experience: don't elect a lying asshole.
Blogger Georgie said...
Trump sounds like a lunatic because he is one. What the heck has happened to Republicans that they would glom onto such a buffoon? Do you seriously think this man should be allowed to lead the most powerful nation on earth?
Bernie Sanders.
Let's not cast projectiles.
This is sp picayune as to be meaningless.
Overheard multiple times on all Sunday talk. Statistics on Syrian refugees which are totally bogus.
Bogus - Half of the refugees are women and children. 25% of the refugees are over age 60. Only 2% of the refugees are military age males
These are figures as stated by WH and State Dept.
------------
The correct numbers. Children 22%, Women 16%, over 60 yo 2.5%, men 62%
See UNHRC
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php#_ga=1.119801736.1605768934.1447705249
or see via Redstate
http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.php#_ga=1.119801736.1605768934.1447705249
As the Professor suggests Dan Rather would be so proud of this discussion.
It just HAS to be true!
This reminds me of the stories about the Israelis singing and dancing on 9/11.
powerline followup: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/11/washington-posts-fact-checker-doesnt-read-the-washington-post.php
trump may have exaggerated, but the wapo and stepanopolous flat out lied.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1
This incident was rocket fuel for anti-Israel 9/11 conspiracy theories.
Thousands in base 2 is only multiples of 8. That's how you get self-referential sentences like
This sentence has one thousand one hundred a's, one b, ten c's, one hundred thousand one d's, one million one hundred e's, one f, one g, ten thousand one hundred eleven h's, one hundred ten i's, one j, one k, one thousand ten l's, eleven m's, one million one hundred one n's, one hundred one thousand eleven o's, one p, one q, one thousand one hundred r's, eleven thousand one hundred s's, ten thousand eleven t's, ten thousand one hundred one u's, one hundred ten v's, one w, one x, one y, and one z.
Georgie: Where were the Obama fans demanding the truth from him? Where are the Hillary fans demanding the details from her?
Even if there were thousands (or hundreds) cheering the towers falling to the ground, I doubt if the MSM would even show people the footage.
How many times have you watched the MSM showing people jumping to their deaths from the burning towers to avoid being burned alive?
That shouldn't be a hard question to answer.
"We all saw thousands of Muslims celebrating on TV. They were celebrating in numerous countries. Jersey City had celebrations as well. These things happened. It is abhorrent but these people are really saying these things and supporting these actions."
No, we "all" didn't. I didn't see any such videos. You have no way of knowing whether videos of people cheering that may have been broadcast after 9/11 were actually videos of people cheering the 9/11 attacks or cheering something else, or whether or not these videos were recorded subsequent to or prior to 9/11, or even who these people were. (Don't you think news departments have piles of stock footage ready to be aired at any time, as needed? How would anyone know if a video recorded for some national or religious holiday in 1999 were aired after 9/11 with a newsreader reciting copy stating these were films of people cheering the fall of the twin towers?)
Do I believe that some people somewhere cheered the 9/11 attacks. Sure, I do. Do I believe "thousands and thousands" of people in New Jersey did? Only a fool would. (I don't even believe that "thousands and thousands" of people abroad were seen cheering.)
Trump uses outrageous exagerration and recklessly false statements deliberately, and has done so for years, as a tactic (a) to gin up publicity and (b) to control the conversation by forcing everyone else to talk about him rather than what they want to talk about. He's even written about this as one of his negotiating tactics in his books. While this may (or may not) work in negotiating real estate deals with local mayors and banks, why anyone would think this makes him a good candidate for president beats me.
A few thoughts:
I remember being shocked by the Palestinians celebrating on 9/11. I wonder if Trump's real aim is to remind people of that.
Having had my eyes opened, I no longer consider it unthinkable that there were thousands of Muslims in NJ who wanted to celebrate 9/11. The only thing implausible is that they would have felt comfortable openly celebrating.
A little searching led me to Debbie Schussel's claim that there was video footage in an MTV documentary that aired some time after 9/11. I found what appears to be that MTV program and scanned it, don't see anything like this in there. It's about the entertainment industry's response to 9/11. Maybe I missed it or maybe MTV did another special, but I'm skeptical.
As to "fake but accurate" and the likelihood that Trump either misremembered or exaggerated: this is worth noting but there are many other things that bother me more about Trump than this. And I'm more bothered by the fact checker who was just as inaccurate when he dismissed the entire claim as false even though his own paper reported that some were arrested in relation to a celebration. Why is it OK to be inaccurate in that way but not in the other direction, especially is your entire job is to get the facts absolutely correct?
That to me is very worrisome and makes me feel even more that the media will try to cover up Islamist extremism. I generally feel we can never really know the truth because there's so much spin in both directions. So people like Trump are going to blow things out of proportion, liberal media is going to deny the things ever occur at all, and the truth, I assume, is somewhere in between.
Exaggeration brings us together.
chickelit said...
BTW, anyone else notice that Althouse put "cheering" in scare quotes in her headline?
Those aren't "scare quotes," chicken little, those are quotation marks. Plain old everyday quotation marks.
Calm yourself, man. You are hysterical. (If you know what I mean by "hysterical").
Mark said...
"Unless someone wants to broaden the discussion"
LOL. Shouting squirrel is not broadening the discussion.
A trite stale metaphor is not much of a critique.
Here is what Trump is supposed to have said, per Robert Cook.
""We all saw thousands of Muslims celebrating on TV. They were celebrating in numerous countries. Jersey City had celebrations as well. These things happened. It is abhorrent but these people are really saying these things and supporting these actions."
That is not a claim that there were thousands in New Jersey. It is a claim that there were thousands, and that some of them were in New Jersey.
rhhardin,
"Thousands in base 2 is only multiples of 8. That's how you get self-referential sentences like"
Maybe that's it right there: maybe Trump uses a base 2 numeric system. That might also explain how he's gone bankrupt three times.
So, Trump was misquoted? Stunning.
Why won't every Republican on ABC keep asking George "Do you want to know or is Hillary, your former boss and patron, asking you to ask this?"
I am not advocating for Hillary. Saying Hillary is worse is hardly relevant to this discussion.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how. If Trump shouldn't be President because of his exaggerations, why should his almost-guaranteed opponent not be held to that standard? Especially since their ideas SPAWNED a lot of our current problems.
Why are they not demanding details and policies? Why are his fans allowing him to slip slide way from questions about his grand plans for making America great again? Why do his fans accept his ridiculous retort of "It will be done by good management" to any request for details?
As I asked the professor, why should be expected to do what the frontrunner from the other party isn't? Hillary's plan to defeat ISIS seems to consist largely of "defeat ISIS". No specifics at all.
"Here is what Trump is supposed to have said, per Robert Cook.
'We all saw thousands of Muslims celebrating on TV. They were celebrating in numerous countries. Jersey City had celebrations as well. These things happened. It is abhorrent but these people are really saying these things and supporting these actions.'"
No, that was what Achilles, another commenter on this blog post said.
Trump said he saw "thousands and thousands" of people in New Jersey celebrating the 9/11 attacks.
Subsequent to my post, I did check out the video of Palestinians dancing in the street in celebration of 9/11 (if it was actually a reaction to 9/11). It looks like possibly a few dozen people, at most. Is there any actual evidence that "thousands and thousands" of Palestinians were dancing in jubilation over 9/11?
I would have said "Not as many thousands as you gave the Clintons Georgie, but thousands."
Trump's unforgivable shortcoming to elitist snobs like Althouse and the other Trump haters here is simply that he's declasse. He's long Island bred, blue collar in mannerisms, boisterous, boastful, ensconced in gold plated nouveau riche bad taste with bad hair.
This is the ultimate disqualifier.
Lying, evil sociopaths like Obama or Hillary are preferable, even a comfortably rationalized choice due to their similar Upper West Side cultural values and image.
Althouse feels more culturally simpatico with a Hillary Clinton than a Donald Trump and despite her delusional self congratulatory claims of "cruel neutrality" votes from the belly, not the brain.
By the way, I seem to recall a story from a few years ago where one of the background elements had to do with a 9/11 party. I wish I could remember more of the details. I just remember being shocked that people would have parties to commemorate 9/11.
The reason that you can't find any video of the Muslims celebrating the towers crashing to the ground is because the MSM wiped their servers clean with a cloth.
It's an article of faith with the Media that racist Tea Party-ers shouted racial epithets and angrily spat on black Democrat politicians. No one's ever offered proof, and even if it happened (spoiler alert: it didn't) it wouldn't be more than one or two people in a crowd of thousands...but oddly in that case no one's all that concerned with accuracy, truth, documented proof, etc.
Robert Cook's skeptical that video showing Palestinians celebrating the 9/11 attacks is accurate, and even if so he's not moved since it's only "a few dozen." Sure there have been plenty of reports of Palestinians celebrating successful terror attacks/murders of Israelis, but those are all propaganda (the pictures of women handing out candy could be for anything, ya'll, it's all a coincidence).
The big lie here is that the Media is equally interested in accuracy or "truth" (objective proof, "checking the story out," etc). For certain stories they wanna dig deep, question all the assumptions, get some proof that their mother really does love them, and so on. For other stories, well, it sounds right, it sounds plausible (even when it really can't--the Rolling Stone Jackie story for instance). That divergence just happens--just happens mind you--to fall along political and ideological lines, which makes perfect sense when you remember that the Media is much further to the Left than the American average (and are also more credentialed, more urban, and so on).
Trump sure sounds wrong, sounds like he vastly overstated the case and thereby distorted the truth. If so he should certainly be held to account for it (and for his other hyperbolic statements that can't be supported). Let's not pretend, though, that doing so fulfills some evenly-applied Media standard for accuracy, nor that the Left is all that concerned about preventing exaggerations and unsupportable accusations when they don't come from the Right.
"The reason that you can't find any video of the Muslims celebrating the towers crashing to the ground is because the MSM wiped their servers clean with a cloth."
A friend of mine in high school made a parody for art class of the Erich Von Daniken CHARIOTS OF THE GODS book(s), which famously drew dubious conclusions on the basis of even more dubious evidence. His sharpest jab was when he showed a picture of a placid looking island and labeled it "The Island Where Nothing Was Found," or something along those lines, and added text to the effect that the utter absence of any evidence of extraterrestrial visitation was conclusive proof the aliens had been there, as they had obviously taken care to remove any such evidence.
John Althouse Cohen said...This is what fact-checkers are for, and Fact Checker says no.
So you're saying the science is settled, then.
I do like the juxtaposition of someone like George SteppyPeppy saying well the police say X so it's true with the Media's insistence that cops are liars who can't be trusted generally. I mean, sure, trust 'em now, but not later. Or something.
Trumps recollection has the same problem as eyewitness testimony. The brain is not very reliable at remembering things.
Things that are remembered are often heard, not seen, but you say you saw it because you heard it described. Or you remember something else related to it and assume it is the thing you remembered.
My guess. If he saw THOUDANDS dancing in the street it was probably the Palestinians and occurred when 9/11 occurred. And he remembered it years after the fact as people in Jersey because he also read an account of people in Jwrsey who may have cheered. And he combined both events in his mind.
He may actually think what he remembered actually occurred and isn't lying since that may be what he thinks he remembers.
"They were cheering as the World Trade Center came down. I know it might be not politically correct for you to talk about it, but there were people cheering as that building came down -- as those buildings came down. And that tells you something. It was well covered at the time, George. Now, I know they don't like to talk about it, but it was well covered at the time. There were people over in New Jersey that were watching it, a heavy Arab population, that were cheering as the buildings came down. Not good."
where is he staying THOUSANDS of people were in Jersey cheering?
Are those claiming he misstated facts themselves misstating what he said?
Real question. Does Tits think Jonathan Cohen is Fab?
Inquiring minds want to know.
TITS!
There were apparently scattered celebrations by Arabs in Jersey City after 9/11 - I say "apparently" and "scattered" because that's what the eyewitness testimony suggests, and there is no video - none, zero, zilich, nada - and no police reports to support the claims. So maybe there were a few dozen happy celebrating Arabs in Jersey City. That's not "thousands," which is what Trump said, very specifically, that he saw on TV. If Trump had any decency, he would acknowledge that he had a "senior moment" and confused the television pictures of hordes of Arabs dancing in the streets of East Jerusalem after 9/11 with what was happening in Jersey City. But his MO is to make outlandish, false statements as a negotiating tactic - he thinks this garners him publicity (which is valuable in and of itself) and throws his opponents off balance, and changes the subject from what they want to talk about, to him. He's even written about using this tactic in his book on negotiating. While it may (or may not) work when negotiating with local mayors, banks and contractors, it's hard to see why anyone would think that it's an effective tool for a president dealing with foreign powers. But that's what all the little Trumpkins think, and that's why they don't care whether anything that Donny says is true or not.
"...that's why they don't care whether anything that Donny says is true or not."
You are not noticing we celebrate Trump's lying just like Obama was celebrated for lying about Gay Marriage until the stupid American public caught up to his private view.
You will learn to submit to Trump's private view, don't you doubt it.
You just lay back and learn to enjoy it.
The footage was from East Jerusalem, not Jersey City:
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.asp
...Eason Jordan, CNN’s Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 — a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles.
See also:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/20/reuters.statement/index.html
The videotape in question was shot in East Jerusalem by a Reuters camera crew on September 11 in the immediate aftermath of the attacks on the United States. The footage was broadcast by CNN and other subscribers to the Reuters video news service.
Also (on the snopes website but I am not sure where this is taken from)
Palestinian Authority actions to confiscate film footage of Palestinians celebrating the terror attacks on the US were logical to prevent the media from painting the wrong picture of Palestinian sentiment, Bassam Abu Sharif, an adviser to PA Chairman Yasser Arafat.
“This was a normal preventive act . . . we don’t want to give more to the Zionist propaganda which portrays all Palestinians as terrorists,” he said. “The idea is that these people were not allowed to film, because a small group of people on film would represent the Palestinian people as a whole.”
Guild - I'm happy to see that you've conceded that everything I wrote about Donny and his admirers is true.
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