"You can’t f- -k about with people, especially people who wear ‘I Heart Rape’ and ‘On Your Knees’ badges — those motorcycle gangs, that’s what they do.... If you play with fire, you get burnt. It’s not any secret, is it? Technically speaking, however you want to look at it, this was all my doing, and I take full responsibility.... If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk? Who else’s fault can it be?... If you don’t want to entice a rapist, don’t wear high heels so you can’t run from him."
August 31, 2015
"Chrissie Hynde slammed for saying some rape victims 'have to take responsibility.'"
She was speaking from experience (she was raped by a biker gang when she was 21):
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126 comments:
Many years ago, I saw some public service program on TV which offered women advice on how to avoid being raped. One specific example I recall was, don't wear flashy clothing, as they showed a young woman in a bright orange dress walking outdoors at night.
The advice left me perplexed. I wondered, if women fail to heed this advice and they get attacked, is there some insinuation that it was partly their fault?
Didn't she realize?
Women are never responsible for anything, ever.
Especially when it comes to sex.
Women are never responsible for anything, ever. Especially when it comes to sex.
At the risk of sounding like a card-carrying feminist, you're saying rape = sex?
I remember when high heel shoes were presented as having been designed by men and foisted on women by men in order to keep them from being able to run away. Feminists used to say that women should reject these shoes because they were disabling. That was a way to blame men, but it stopped working because clearly, today, women are choosing to wear these shoes.
Makeup was also presented as rape-related, causing women to create the appearance of having been beaten up -- the eyes being darkened to look bruised and the mouth made red as if bloodied. This was men tricking women into looking raped.
Later it became obvious that women were choosing that heavy makeup.
I found this interesting:
"Hynde also suggested that rape victims who were drunk or dressed provocatively at the time are to blame, not their attacker.
'If I’m walking around in my underwear and I’m drunk? Who else’s fault can it be?' she asked, calling it 'common sense.'"
I won't comment on all of Hynde's comments, but here the author refers to blame, whereas Hynde referred to fault. I see these as different concepts. Blame is a moral judgment, and maybe Hynde is passing judgment here. Fault, in my view, is strictly cause-and-effect. And this topic, more than most, is one where moral judgment versus causation get all blended up.
Yes, the blame lies entirely with the rapists, and I think rapists should be shot. But this idea that it's blaming the victim to tell girls, "Be careful not to do this or you are putting yourself in a position where you are very likely to be raped" drives me nuts.
I think this whole issue comes down to where we draw the line between "supporting common sense" and "victim blaming."
"Don't get drunk and walk down that alley at 4 AM."--Common sense
"You were drunk and walking down that alley at 4 AM--no wonder you were mugged! You deserved what you got!"--Victim blaming
There's another issue here though, which is "clothing." We talk about whether clothing choice can have some effect on whether you get raped. It's fine to say "hey if you wear high heels you won't be able to run or fight" or "if you wear a flimsy dress an attacker may be able to rip it open easier". But it's quite another to say "if you were wearing something so revealing no wonder you got raped!", because you may be dressing for attention but there really isn't a clothing choice that says "have sex with me against my will."
Thoughts?
I guess we should also rule out formal dress of all kinds for women as one cannot run or practice self defense very well in it.
Women should be required to wear shapeless and colorless clothing which covers their curves completely and can help with self defense. You know, like a burka [you can even hide weapons under there!].
Then Chrissie Hynde will have her way and there will be no physical appeal of any kind to tempt the men who cannot help but rape anything they find attractive. She has a very Taliban-esque view of men's ability to control their sexual urges.
"The advice left me perplexed. I wondered, if women fail to heed this advice and they get attacked, is there some insinuation that it was partly their fault?"
There is this conflation of risk avoidance recommendations with blaming the victim. If someone comes into my house and robs me, it is not my "fault" just because I didn't lock the doors when I got home from work. The perp committed a crime against me. It is not my fault. Telling people that locking their doors behind them when they get home is not blaming the victim. It is simply providing a way to reduce the risk of bad things happening to you. Lock your car. Don't go through bad neighborhoods at night. Don't get falling down drunk at frat parties.
In Bonaire, the rental car people tell you not to lock your car and leave the windows down. If the windows get broken during a theft, you are responsible for the damage. There, it is the victims fault.
MisterBuddwing said...
The advice left me perplexed. I wondered, if women fail to heed this advice and they get attacked, is there some insinuation that it was partly their fault?
We manage to teach our kids to watch out for and avoid aggressive / possibly drunk drivers without being perplexed about it.
"is there some insinuation that it was partly their fault?"
I would say no. But different people seem to have different definitions for the concept of "fault".
The advice left me perplexed. I wondered, if women fail to heed this advice and they get attacked, is there some insinuation that it was partly their fault?
If you fail to wear a seatbelt and someone hits your car through no fault of your own, and you are ejected through the windshield (causing horrendous damage to your face and torso) into traffic where you are ran over three times (but since you already hit the pavement with the same force as if you jumped off a three story building and are dead that doesn't really matter to you) and cause 6 other people to be injured because cars are swerving to avoid you, thus causing further accidents, are you partly at fault?
Some women place themselves in high risk situations and many will realize the consequences of their choice. This is not just about women and rape, but about people, reality, and risk management.
There was an interesting story in the London paper a day or two sgo. A 72 year old Chelsea pensioner (a retired British soldier wo is allowed to live in the Chelsea pensioner barracks) was convicted of sexual assault. He's also been stripped of his pension and thrown out of the barracks.
It seems that he met a 29 year old woman down at the local pub. She (and maybe he) got drunk. She came back to his room, stripped naked and. Limbed in to his bed. He "rubbed against her". That was said to be sexual assault. He was charged and convicted. Hey a 72 year old man is capable of only so much.
In an interesting gender role reversal, Hynde reportedly broke Ray Davies heart by tossing him to the curb after giving birth to their daughter. For this, she may not be forgiven. Though it sounds par for the course for Davies.
Sorry about that. Edit function wouldn't edit. She climbed into his bed--absolutely starkers as the Brits might say.
In the 19th century Polynesian women in the islands, when they saw a European ship coming in, would stuff pebbles in their vaginas to keep men from raping them.
Now that's taking precautions.
It's like this. You are sitting at a four way stop sign and it's your turn to go. From your right you see a car is approaching at sixty miles an hour, but because it's your turn to go you insist on exercising your right of way. And as you go through the intersection you are T-boned and killed. But the other driver broke the law and has to go to jail. But you were right, and you really showed him/her.
Being drunk and/or provocatively dressed does not excuse being raped, but if you do get drunk, dress provocatively, and walk down a dark alley in a shady part of town you are exercising your rights. If someone rapes and/or kills you and is caught they will likely go to jail while you have to live with the consequences and the aftermath of the violent attack provided you live.
When did exercising prudence because verboten?
If I'm on a jury I won't care whether the victim was dressed provocatively or drunk or in the wrong place, I'd still vote convict the attacker but it wouldn't erase the fact of the rape.
This is on topic for this subject.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/31/what-the-left-and-right-dont-get-about-campus-rape/
Prudence used to be considered one of the four cardinal virtues.
Now it's just a girl's name.
Hynde was baffled by the fact that her interviewer was baffled by her position. It was common sense to her. Blasphemy to her interviewer.
Anybody ever fact checked Hynde's story?
There are so many lefty women yearning to be romantic martyrs to the feminist cause. Particularly in the arts.
Claiming to be raped has been a PR move for every feminist woman in Woodstock since I landed here 40 years ago. Since my anti-feminist views are well known in Woodstock, a number of women have tried to lure me into relationships for the express purpose of bringing a rape or abuse charge against me. I'm pretty careful about who I allow myself to be seen in public with as a result.
So, can somebody tell me whether Hynde's story has any factual basis? Or, is it just PR hype?
"Blasphemy to her interviewer."
And to commenter Mark as well.
The position of the people criticizing Ms. Hynde makes perfect sense once you get used to the idea that rape is crime of violence that has nothing to do with sex.
It is always the rapists fault. But that doesn't mean there aren't things you can do to decrease the likelihood of something happening.
Wear sensible shoes. Don't get intoxicated with men you don't know. Don't flash cash in the bad part of town. Don't hang out with drug dealers. Tell someone you trust where you are, and when you expect to be home.
Don't accept a ride home from a guy wearing nothing but a goat mask.
You'd be surprised by how many young women make that mistake.
Once again, here in super lefty Woodstock, allegations of physical abuse and rape are the most common form of career PR among female artists. Every female artist does it.
Did Hynde report this alleged crime? Were perps convicted?
Being right is no excuse for telling the truth.
@Eric the Fruit Bat
Rape is a crime where violence is used to obtain sex. Hanging out with outlaw bikers is not likely to end well for anyone. Using violence to obtain what they want is what outlaw bikers do.
That's why them became outlaw bikers.
She's not blaming rape victims. what she's saying is that "if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned". It's better not to be a victim, then to be a victim and play identity politics.
I am in agreement with n.n.:Some women place themselves in high risk situations and many will realize the consequences of their choice. This is not just about women and rape, but about people, reality, and risk management.
This is not absolving rapists of their blame for the rape. Rape is a vile crime and there is no excuse for it. However, women should be prudent in their actions and choose carefully when and where to dress and act provocatively. It is not smart for a woman to drink heavily and do drugs in situations where her state could easily allow a rapist to take advantage. That is not absolving the bad behavior on the part of the rapist. It is just plain common sense.
I am a woman and I myself had a sad situation where I was raped and I hold myself responsible for going to a bar with a woman friend, drinking heavily, leaving the bar with her and 2 men, and ending up on a boat passed out to awaken to a man raping me in my drunken stupor. He was an animal. I was an idiot.
I would love to be able to walk down 10th and Center in the city of Milwaukee at 2:00 a.m (or any time for that matter) without fear of physical harm. Even though I have a right to do it, I recognize that it would be a dumb thing to do.
Sounds about right for the decidedly non-PC Chrissie Hynde.
Never so much on The Pretenders but I've been cool with Chrissie Hynde ever since I heard that she had no problem (as long as he pays appropriate $, of course...) with Rush Limbaugh using the first few bars of her 'My City Was Gone' as the theme song for his radio program. She's probably made more $ off Rush Limbaugh than she did for the whole album of songs back in the day.
I'm a biker. I ride with all kinds of people.
I've played concerts for the Hell's Angels.
There are women who like to gang bang. The Angels don't have any trouble finding attractive women who want to hang around, and the Angels' reputation precedes them.
I've met quite a few or these women who like to gang bang. It's not uncommon for severe regret to emerge post mortem.
re History of high shoes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopine
Dear Women,
Get your concealed carry permit, then dress any way you wish.
Why the continuing assumption that Hynde is telling the truth?
I'm neither assuming she's telling the truth or lying. I'm not even assuming that the incident she refers to took place.
In the world of rock and roll, this story she told is PR gold. Establishes street cred.
She could be engaging in a version of what is called "humble brag." Look it up in the Urban Dictionary.
@Rae, Beelzebub begs to inform you that that was not a mask.
Then Chrissie Hynde will have her way and there will be no physical appeal of any kind to tempt the men who cannot help but rape anything they find attractive. She has a very Taliban-esque view of men's ability to control their sexual urges.
Yes, teaching women things to avoid problems is such a bad idea. Why, I bet you've never locked a door once in your life or taken the keys out of your car when you're not in it.
No need to prevent problems. No sir. That'd be blaming you.
I feel bad now telling my kids to not get in vans with strangers instead of telling pedophiles to not fuck young kids.
The position of the people criticizing Ms. Hynde makes perfect sense once you get used to the idea that rape is crime of violence that has nothing to do with sex.
Which is a brutally illogical position for anybody to take. One can always point to outliers, but it's not 80 or 90 year old women making up the majority of rape victims.
Nor is it morbidly obese women or just physically repulsive women?
To pretend it's a crime totally divorced of sex is absurd.
I remember when high heel shoes were presented as having been designed by men and foisted on women by men in order to keep them from being able to run away.
They were designed by men to make women's asses look irresistible.
Why the continuing assumption that Hynde is telling the truth?
Because, in this case, the factual accuracy of her rape claim is not really material to the backlash she is suffering for providing blatantly obvious advice women received all the time, until ten years ago.
Now, college girls are fucking idiots.
"would stuff pebbles in their vaginas to keep men from raping them."
So Lena Dunham was just protecting her sister from European explorers!
Now, college girls are fucking idiots.
In more ways than one!
The only people objecting to Ms. Hynde's comments would be left-wing feminists, who have trouble dealing with honest statements about how the world works.
Nobody is blaming the victim. The rapist, not the victim, is to blame.
However, most sensible women understand that there is a spectrum of risk out there.
Walking through Central Park at Midnight alone in tank top = high risk
Walking through Central Park on Sat at Noon, in tank top, with several friends, playing frisbee = low risk
Do Leftist women not comprehend this?
These people who criticized her (some quoted in the article): Do they actually walk out alone late at night in provocative dress? If their daughters would ask them what they think about their doing it, would they tell the daughters, "It's absolutely fine. You have a right to dress as you want and no one has a right to touch you!"
Do you expect me to believe that they wouldn't tell them, "That's a crazy irresponsible thing to do. Don't you know what could happen to you?!"
[Afterwards, of course they would comfort their daughters and tell them they shouldn't be consumed by guilt, the true guilt was the rapist's, etc. Also true.]
Why is this hard? Are we playing Let's Pretend?
Shouting Thomas:
It's not uncommon for severe regret to emerge post mortem.
The fantasy can and often is better than the reality. Mom and dad can only offer so much guidance, but ultimately its the child's curiosity and choice. Still, it doesn't help when society promotes or normalizes dysfunctional orientations and behaviors. The sexual revolution continues to create millions of victims before and after birth.
Are we playing Let's Pretend?
Yep.
"I, the greengrocer XY, live here and I know what I must do. I behave in the manner expected of me. I can be depended upon and am beyond reproach. I am obedient and therefore I have the right to be left in peace." This message, of course, has an addressee: it is directed above, to the greengrocer's superior, and at the same time it is a shield that protects the greengrocer from potential informers. The slogan's real meaning, therefore, is rooted firmly in the greengrocer's existence. It reflects his vital interests. But what are those vital interests?
Let us take note: if the greengrocer had been instructed to display the slogan "I am afraid and therefore unquestioningly obedient,” he would not be nearly as indifferent to its semantics, even though the statement would reflect the truth. The greengrocer would be embarrassed and ashamed to put such an unequivocal statement of his own degradation in the shop window, and quite naturally so, for he is a human being and thus has a sense of his own dignity. To overcome this complication, his expression of loyalty must take the form of a sign which, at least on its textual surface, indicates a level of disinterested conviction. It must allow the greengrocer to say, "What's wrong with the workers of the world uniting?" Thus the sign helps the greengrocer to conceal from himself the low foundations of his obedience, at the same time concealing the low foundations of power. It hides them behind the facade of something high. And that something is ideology.
http://www.vaclavhavel.cz/showtrans.php?cat=eseje&val=2_aj_eseje.html&typ=HTML
Nobody is blaming the victim. The rapist, not the victim, is to blame.
That's called a partial archetype. It's particularly important in narratives.
Is there any other place in life, any at all, where it is not ok, not accepted, even encouraged, for people to take steps to avoid being victimized? I can't think of one.
Rape stands alone as the one and only part of life where it is considered a bad thing to advise people how to be safe.
you're saying rape = sex?
Yes, by definition rape involves sex...non-consensual sex.
Fault and blame are too (and two!) different things. The people criticizing Hynde want to live in a fantasy world where no one does anything bad, so all behavior has no bad repercussions.
Welcome to reality.
The position of the people criticizing Ms. Hynde makes perfect sense once you get used to the idea that rape is crime of violence that has nothing to do with sex.
No..that is battery. Rape, by definition, is a crime of violence that specifically has something to do with sex.
Bay Area Guy:
The people objecting to sensible risk management practices may be naive, or they are opportunistic predators who are intentionally creating a victim class in order to scavenge and exploit.
Furthermore, with the exposure of Planned Parenthood's corporate practices, there emerges a correlation between progressive moralists, indiscriminate killing (i.e. elective abortion), and human trafficking.
Well, it's just a correlation, but their enthusiastic denial of individual dignity, intrinsic value, and natural circumstances, does leave them open to this scrutiny.
Hynde is asserting control. She claims something bad happened to her (and let's just assume she was raped as she described). In analyzing her behavior and seeing what she could have changed, she is refusing the victim persona and attempting to take control of her own life and the consequences thereof. Yes, the rapists were bad people. There are bad people in the world. So what do you do to avoid letting bad peope hurt you?
I don't think that this viewpoint is "right", or the victim viewpoint is "wrong." I do think it will lead to more fulfilling, less fearful life.
Almost all men commenting here.
Women know which is which, but don't want to talk about it.
If you play with fire, you get burnt.
You can use fire to shoot marbles into a tree trunk, if you have a pipe.
That's a boys' idea, though.
Girls should stay away.
She was guilty of stupid behavior. The men were guilty of rape.........I have heard mugging victims say that it was their fault for walking home drunk late at night. We like to think we're in control of our own lives and that the bad things that happened to us could have been avoided. Well, sometimes. Some smokers get lung cancer, some don't. A world where everything is governed by blind chance is an even scarier place than a world ruled by an outlaw bike gang.
Water nymphs know how to put fire out.
Water was discovered shortly after fire.
Then rock, paper and scissors. The stone age, writing and finally editing.
High heels persist owing to an evolutionary reproductive advantage.
The high point of civilization was probably the lift-and-separate brassiere.
"Rape stands alone as the one and only part of life where it is considered a bad thing to advise people how to be safe."
That's because in earlier times (and perhaps in some circles today) there was genuine "victim shaming" for rape victims. That, plus the fact that more than most crimes it's incredibly hard to prove because the indisputable evidence of rape is often identical to the indisputable evidence of consensual sex, and whether it was a rape hinges on state of mind of the parties. So often the way a woman acted or was dressed was used not just to say "she was asking for it" but to even argue she wasn't even raped. And hearing "you probably weren't raped but actually enjoyed it" or "you basically asked to get raped" because of the way a woman was dressed had to be particularly insult on top of injury for a real rape victim.
Of course, today the pushback has gone so far that even saying "it's a bad idea for young women to get blackout drunk with strangers" or "young women should be taught to stay in groups when they go out" is equated with the "serves that hussy right!" statements above. There is a distinction, but hey, we're now living in a world with no room for nuance as long as everyone has their causes.
Imagine how complicated things would be if women just went into heat twice a year and it all worked by scent.
Somebody would probably come up with a fake bitch-in-heat perfume. Then would it be the woman's fault?
The species would have to develop sharp teeth. No means no.
"It's been a minute. Maybe she's changed her mind."
There is in fact a bitch in heat perfume, incidentally, but it doesn't affect humans, unless you're wearing it and have to deal with leg humping.
It's used in training male dogs to stay on the assigned track until the glove is found, in spite of a crossinig bitch track.
I once woke up drunk in the lobby of a building around the corner from my own. It was after a particularly debauched night of drunkenness. I remember having at least 7 long island ice teas and huge chunks of the night are a blur. Anyway my friend got me a cab and I wound up a block from my house and fell asleep in the lobby covered in puke. Probably the worst night in terms of drunkenness I've had. Usually I was pretty good. unless rum was involved then weird things would happen.
ANYWAY, I was kicked awake by someone in the building and told to leave. ANd I remember thinking, someone could have done anything to me. If I woke up in someone's house getting butt fucked by a rapist, would it be anyone's fault but my
Here's my hypothetical. What if you're driving to the hospital with an aborted baby fetus to save your nine-year-old daughter. The aborted fetus is not strapped in with a seatbelt. Wait...I lost my train of thought.
So, situational awareness is key. Don't put yourself in a position where you are not cognizant of the dangers you might face. That means, don't get too drunk and don't dress like a prostitute and then go romaing the streets.
You are responsible for your own safety and if you take actions that jeapordize it, ITS" YOUR FAULT.
Sure, men shouldn't rape. But we already know that. HEre's a thought though - they do. Sure we shouldn't be robbed at gun point at night. But sometimes it happens. So, to minimize it know where you are and the dangers that are lurking and don't walk around like a tourist.
Eating sushi you buy at a gas station shouldn't cause you food poisoning.
Prudence used to be considered one of the four cardinal virtues.
Now it's just a girl's name.
Dear Prudence,
Wont you come out to play-ay-ay-ay.
The stiletto high heel is modern woman’s most lethal social weapon. First imagined in the 1930s but not realized until postwar technology made it possible in the early 1950s, the stiletto is a visual slash born to puncture and pierce."
Do the PC crowd want 100 men killed when one woman is raped. That is the gist of the War on men concerning the fact that there are bad men who hunt women, rape them and kill them to escape prosecution. If so, why not go back to making Rape a Capital crime as it was until the darling 5 of 9 Pholosopher Kings recently thought that had always been cruel and unusual or something.
In the air war over Germany in 1943 and 1944 the Luftwaffe hunted B-17s and B-24s to kill them as they flew over Berlin etc.. The Eighth Airforce flew to entice the fighters into the air so the accompanying American fighters could kill the German pilots that would otherwise attack the DDay armada and landing. The bombers were bait, pure and simple bait.
The instructions on how to survive that slaughter that entailed a 30% loss rate was not seen as politically offensive to the American Airmen. It was the essence of reality as short as their remaining lives were. Many Airmen went near insane from that slaughter. One was named Jimmy Stewart.
Ergo: Women should not play the role bait if the refuse to be the hunted. There are many aces flying around out there with 5 or more kills.
The campus rape hysteria is driven by the epidemic of black on white rape... a fact that is unmentionable in the PC environment of campuses.
The introduction of massive numbers of black quota recipients, combined with substantial numbers of non-qualified blacks in the out of control major sports programs creates a hazard that cannot be openly discussed.
In the same way that gun control advocates cannot address the reality that gun crime is overwhelmingly a product of black gangsterism, the campus rape hysterics cannot address the reality of what happens when you introduce huge numbers of quota blacks and non-qualified black athletes on campus.
So, the solution is to attack all men, rather than the specific problem. In fact, the problem has been re-directed against innocent white frat boys, i.e. Duke and UVA.
The attitudes of black gangsterism hyped up by gangster rap cannot be "educated" away.
Mad Wolf:
What doesn't break us, makes us stronger [smarter]. I think that's the best possible outcome. You can still enjoy your life and have peace of mind. I would say good luck, but I think you have already figured it out.
Blogger MisterBuddwing said...
Women are never responsible for anything, ever. Especially when it comes to sex.
At the risk of sounding like a card-carrying feminist, you're saying rape = sex?
No, but some extreme feminists claim that all PIV sex is rape.
It must be hell to try and teach basic self-defense principles on a college campus today. To read what some of these young women write, they should be able to do whatever they want at any place and at any time (and in any state of sobriety) without fear of bad things happening. In a perfect world, they should be able to do those things. However, we don't now and never have (and likely never will) live in a perfect world. There are bad people out there. They're criminal predators and they're looking for their next victim. The things they do are wrong and they're solely to blame but a wise person seeks to reduce their chances of becoming a crime victim. Your best efforts may not be enough (that's where a concealed carry pistol can come in handy) but you don't have to make it easy for the predators. Being unaware of your surroundings, being too drunk or stoned to know what's going on around you, putting yourself into vulnerable situations - those are things that can get you raped, robbed, or killed. It won't be your fault but that's small comfort.
Shouting Thomas:
Retributive change? Tribal violence? Dysfunctional orientations? It's still necessary to separate the savages from the civilized. The liberal use and abuse of inference and extrapolation to falsely paint classes of individuals has been politically, socially, and financially profitable; but, denigration of individual dignity, [literal] destruction of intrinsic value, and denying natural imperatives has not served society or humanity well.
It never excuses the first party who commits the criminal act.
But increasingly, third parties (usually premises owners) are being held responsible for negligence in tort.
Besides deep pockets, civil court is about what each non-perpetrator could have done to avoid the foreseeable risk.
There, it's appropriate to question the comparative fault of the victim when the victim is trying to hold a third party responsible for the act of another due to foreseeable risk of harm.
A woman expresses some very good common sense advice and people go nuts. This is life in 21st Century America.
Does the same logic hold for not running in front of a hungry cannibal after slathering yourself with honey-mustard and croutons?
Contributory negligence is a very simple concept.
"For example, a pedestrian crosses a road negligently and is hit by a driver who was driving negligently. Since the pedestrian has also contributed to the accident, they may be barred from complete and full recovery of damages from the driver (or their insurer) because the accident was less likely to occur if it weren't for their failure to keep a proper lookout. Another example of contributory negligence is where a plaintiff actively disregards warnings or fails to take reasonable steps for his or her safety, then assumes a certain level of risk in a given activity; such as diving in shallow water without checking the depth first."
While the criminal, and not the victim, is indisputably 100% at moral fault when a crime is committed, nonetheless it is better not to be a victim if possible, and people should avoid putting themselves at risk when they can.
When I was in college, people who were passed out at parties were going to get their faces drawn with Sharpies at minimum. They were extraordinarily lucky if they also did not get "posed" for inappropriate photos. Doing those things to people was a mean thing to do, and it is not "victim-blaming" to say hey, if you can avoid the situation it's best you do.
Can I get a Harrumph!
My guess is (I'm no expert) that where a woman goes and with whom is a bigger factor than how she's dressed. A girl in a thong bikini can be pretty safe on a crowded beach, but a woman who goes to the warehouse district with the outlaw bikers would be in danger even if she was wearing a conservative business suit. Focusing on the who and where rather than the clothing issue might avoid some of the push-back that the prudence advice seems to be generating.
I thought Stephen Smith had been suspended by ESPN over comments similar to Hyndes.
Stephen Smith was suspended for "suggesting on "First Take" that Rice's then-fiancée Janay Palmer could have done something to prevent last year's alleged domestic violence incident in an Atlantic City elevator."
Here is the quote that got Stephen Smith in hot water...
"What I’ve tried to employ the female members of my family — some of who you all met and talked to and what have you — is that ... let’s make sure we don’t do anything to provoke wrong actions, because if I come — or somebody else come, whether it’s law enforcement officials, your brother or the fellas that you know — if we come after somebody has put their hands on you, it doesn’t negate the fact that they already put their hands on you."
"Chrissie Hynde slammed for saying some rape victims 'have to take responsibility.'"
Slamming the victim.
The nastiness of nasty males has an addictive quality that after the fact can make it at least somewhat plausible to females unwillingly exposed to such nastiness that the nastiness was something the female naturally wanted because she is bad. So it is often convenient for the abuser to plead that the addictive abusive nastiness was deserved because the abused be bad (someone who naturally wanted to be abused). It is the reason hesitance is especially warranted in blaming the abuser, and it's why people who determine and point out how victims could have better defended themselves are often slammed indiscriminately. The abuser tends to want to make the abused feel it was her fault (as if he were just doing what he knew she naturally wanted).
Feminists actually took offense when a beauty pageant winner told women to learn self defense to deal with potential rapes. They instead wanted to teach the rapists not to rape. How fucking stupid that is.
Do you think any man hasn't been taught not to rape? Those that rape already know its wrong. They just want to rape. They were taught. They reject the teachings. So, you best be prepared if someone like that stumbles into your life and decides you will be his victim.
Let take Myley Cyrus. Lets suppose she leaves the MTV music awards, gets high on molly then walks home high, and half nude dressed in her S&M princess leia tin man costume. Who thinks that would be smart?
Very few rape victims were more unambiguously rape victims than Patty Hearst. Even ISIS operatives would probably criticize her rape as too rapey. She was violently abducted from her home, trussed up, and thrown into a car trunk. Then she claims that she was kept in a dark closet for several weeks and periodically taken out and raped. I don't remember the left ever making her out as a cause célèbre for rape victims. She was, however, celebrated as a heroine when she pointed a gun at bank employees.......A couple of women claimed that Dr. Dre savagely beat them. It was a story a few days ago. But Dr. Dre apologized so it's all good now.......a woman's victimization depends not on the extent of her injuries, but on the political beliefs of her oppressors.
If you are walking through the woods coated entirely in honey, yes the bear is evil for mauling you. But maybe don't walk through the woods coated in honey? Maybe question your own position and how you wound up being the target of the bear.
10 ways to attract bears to your campsite:
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hiking/5-ways-to-attract-bears.htm
Smart person. "I better not do those things, otherwise I might attract a bear.
Dumb person. "Just because I did those ten things doesn't mean I'm responsible for a bear coming into the campsite. How dare you say I share some responsibility. Sexist!"
oooooohhhhhhh
blasphemy...from a rebel rock chick, usually those are favorites of feminists
I'll get the popcorn
Possibly "don't hang around with biker gangs" is as or more important advice as "don't go around drunk and in your underwear".
I thought Stephen Smith had been suspended by ESPN over comments similar to Hyndes.
I guess that's the end of Chrissie Hynde's career as a sports color commentor then.
I'm reminded of the guy down in Texas who was warned, "Don't go in the bayou because there are alligators". His response, "Fuck the alligators". So he jumped in and the alligators ate him. Who's morally responsible? Putting rapists in the same class as alligators, i.e. they don't care about your feelings, would be a good start to avoiding them.
I remember when high heel shoes were presented as having been designed by men and foisted on women by men in order to keep them from being able to run away
Just recently in Jurassic World Bryce Dallas Howard in high heels outran a Tyrannosaurus Rex. And Julia Roberts in high heels leapt from car roof to car roof in Conspiracy Theory.
So there!
Responsibility is not a zero sum game. Had an acquaintance who was moving and stopped off to visit a friend who lived in a sketchy neighborhood near NYC. Goes up to the friend's apartment. They chat a few minutes. Friend asks, "Where did you park your car?" "Out on the street." Of course, they go down immediately, and the car has been cleaned out.
Like the Chrissie Hynde story, no one doubts that the perp is guilty of a crime and should go to jail. But unlike that story no one gives the guy who left his possessions in an old car on a dangerous street any crap for taking responsibility for not being aware of his surroundings and taking basic precautions.
I'd like to hear the actual interview with Hynde. I have no confidence in the reporting. I don't trust the reporter to be intellectually capable of making the distinction between her taking responsibility for her own actions and absolving the gang rapists of their responsibility for their actions.
Can I get a Harrumph!
One of my favorite scenes ever. I actually use that line (I didn't get a harrumph from that guy...) in my classroom, and even some meetings with other teachers. No one ever gets it, except my best friend who falls out of his chair laughing when I do it.
The kids don't get it when I repeat "Bueller, Bueller, Bueller..." either.
I asked my principal if I could have a pizza delivered to my US History class a couple of years ago. Sadly, he turned me down.
I asked my principal if I could have a pizza delivered to my US History class a couple of years ago. Sadly, he turned me down.
Remember: Ask for forgiveness, not permission.
Remember: Ask for forgiveness, not permission.
Just realized this sounds terribly awkward in a rape-related thread. It's about PIZZA, people.
Gahrie - was the principal's name Mr. Hand?
I agree, Bob R. You just can't trust reporters with nuance.
This is a Leftwing feminism (redundancy noted) problem, not a women problem in general. Most women are smart and savvy and commonsensical about this stuff. Hopefully, Ms. Hynde has recovered both from the trauma and her
As for left-wing women, just stay away from them. Many more problems than they are worth. If they are attractive left-wing women (I'm thinkin' Susan Sarandon from 15 -20 years ago), then you face a dilemma. But you might wanna avoid that too.
@Gahrie - "Give the Governor a Harumph!" Greatest comedy ever - they sure wouldn't make Blazing Saddles today.
left wing feminism refuses to go to Afghanistan and fight the True Fight.
Cunts, just like Obama.
The First.Cunt.President.
May He be the Last.
Godspeed, America
Gahrie - was the principal's name Mr. Hand?
Nope..he's Hispanic.
Fault or blame are immaterial.
Do you not want to get raped? These are things you can do to lower the probability.
The consequences of poor judgement are not being blamed, it is being hurt.
I'm appalled by these feminists encouraging young women to act as if reality doesn't exist.
Nope..he's Hispanic.
So it was Mr. Mano?
Of course, you'll have the good taste not to mention that I spoke to you.
I love Chrissie Hynde, and I never hung out with biker gangs. But I woke in the middle of the night as a man came through the bedroom window of my third-floor apartment. I was shocked and could not get away fast. Rape rape, as Whoopi Goldberg might say. The police established pretty quickly who the bad guy was, but in the pre-DNA days it wasn't easy to convict rapists, even with rape kits. I realized later that one of the detectives was the father of a friend in my honors English high school class. If I'd pushed this point, the cops might have taken more interest in pursuing the creep. I didn't, and they didn't. Still makes me angry.
We're overprosecuting marginal cases now, but we underprosecuted much more serious rapes back in the day.
The "feminists" that attack people who are trying to keep other women from getting raped are not good people. Chrissie Hynde is trying to keep other women from having to go through her experience. She is giving advice. I am sure the reporter is also trying to warp what she said to make it sound like she is blaming victims exclusively because most reporters are not good people either.
These "feminists" want women to act like victims, get raped, be victims, and hate all men for the rest of their lives. They are spending their time in colleges now convincing as many women as possible they were raped.
The feminists pushing back on laying some responsibility with the female victim, either for the way they dress or act or who they hang out with, I believe, is also tied to their belief that rape is purely an act of violence, and that the male orgasm that almost assuredly results from the act is relatively meaningless. The rates of rape/sexual assault victimization of females by age is strongly correlated with peak female sexual desirability. According to page 3 of the Department of Justice report on the Age Patterns of Victims of Serious Violent Crime*, the following are the rates of rape/sexual assault (per thousand) by age groups:
12-14... 6.7
15-17... 12.0
18-21... 13.8
22-24... 11.8
25-29... 3.7
30-34... 5.4
35-39... 4.0
40-49... 2.6
50-64... 0.6
65-older 0.3
No other crime victim stat for females comes close to matching that sharp peak from 15-24 for rape/sexual assault.
*The data is from 1992-94, but I could not find a more recent set of comparable govt statistics online as this report kept popping up. Even though US crimes rates are down dramatically since then, I expect the trends are still similar.
jr565 said...
Feminists actually took offense when a beauty pageant winner told women to learn self defense to deal with potential rapes. They instead wanted to teach the rapists not to rape. How fucking stupid that is.
Do you think any man hasn't been taught not to rape? Those that rape already know its wrong. They just want to rape. They were taught. They reject the teachings.
8/31/15, 4:15 PM
Yes. This is the argument against Gun Control/gun grabbers, especially in the wake of a celebrated shooting/murder. There are laws, there are rules, there are codes of conduct- Criminals don't follow the law, the rules, or the codes of conduct. It's why they are criminals. Taking away everyone else's rights is not going to stop these people from continuing to do things against the law, against the rules, contrary to accepted codes of conduct.
"High heels persist owing to an evolutionary reproductive advantage."
Africa has a lot of high heel wearers does it?
Do you invest in companies that sell high heels in Africa?
Surely persistence pays on the scale of Africa's reproductive advantage.
Strong arguments could be made the more high heels the fewer children and less reproductive advantage.
You all can make stronger arguments than myself. Have noticed.
Makes me realize why I have identified with Metallica's "Unforgiven" since a child.
"All I've felt, all I've known
Never shined through in what I showed.
Never free, never me,
So I dub thee unforgiven."
Para-feminists and misogynists alike**, you have been making me laugh my ass off for this entire thread! Thanks be I never relied on either of the likes of you.
**To whom the insult before the ** does not apply, indeed it does NOT apply. If you don't fall into one of those categories, take no offense because no offense is intended toward you, unlike toward those who fall into the categories BEFORE the **.
---
It's not *difficult* to make the distinctions and it's not *difficult* to get what Hynde is saying. Now, on the other hand, it might be *hard* to be willing to make distinctions and it might be "hard" to acknowledge Hynde's "voice" about what she went through (because, of course, all voices ought blend, indistinguishable, in order to come up with the one best, accepted lyric, in harmony).
I call bullshit on the attacking of Chrissie Hynde from both sides.
And I say that as someone who both disagrees in part and agrees in part with her.
Back on the Chain Gang
Don't Get Me Wrong
Yeah, OK: LOL, I bet you guys will [not].
By the way, no one answered Shouting Thomas's question from early on in the thread, repeated more than once, which I find laudable. On the other hand, no one posed the same question to Shouting Thomas, which I do not find laudable.
We're overprosecuting marginal cases now, but we underprosecuted much more serious rapes back in the day.
No argument.
But the over-prosecution now will, eventually, lead to under-prosecution in the future. The whole crying wolf situation. I know I've gone from assuming a rape accusation is true to assuming it is not, most of the time.
@rcommal, @ShoutingThomas
It is worth asking whether the alleged event really happened. However, the evidence is thin. And we don't have friends of the fraternity..., er, biker gang digging into the narrative to verify or refute it.
I find it worth noting that this statement, by itself, is the best part of the quote.
"You can’t f- -k about with people, especially people who wear ‘I Heart Rape’ and ‘On Your Knees’ badges — those motorcycle gangs, that’s what they do.... If you play with fire, you get burnt. It’s not any secret, is it?"
The stuff later on about what kind of clothes she was wearing, getting drunk, etc., is aside from the main point.
If the rape happened, it happened mostly because of who she was hanging out with, not what she was wearing.
For what it's worth - not much IMO - there doesn't seem to be any record of Hynde raising this issue before the book. However, that's not unusual or disqualifying in and of itself. In 1972, she was a (self-described) nobody hippie, who partied with a biker gang in Ohio and paid the price. I can imagine her calling the cops, in that time and place, and being treated sensitively and fairly. Sure. Even if they believed her, and they cared, they'd never prove it. But chances are, they'd be 0 out of 3 on that.
I see no reason to doubt her story, given her occupation and background, since it follows no ideology. Women do get raped all the time. By men.
Frankly, in lots of places, the chance of an ostensible sexual assault being investigated professionally are still somewhere around slim to none, sad to say. In other places, excellent. Luck of the zip code.
Life should be like an amusement park ride, in which one can enjoy the thrill of danger, confident that the apparent danger is never real but always just a well-constructed illusion?
In 1972, not even Roe v. Wade had come to be, yet.
In 1972, it wasn't even far off from when even--wait for it!--The New York Times stopped posting employment advertisements which specified men-only as a basic requirement for applying for a job.
& etc.
---
Just a shallow bit of reminder, as to context, 'n' all ... .
In other words, of course I am supporting Chrissie in this time, and not least because of what she said and did back in the day (and wrote and sang) back in the day. Didn't I already say that? Quite plainly, directly, and clearly, I would say. I even threw out a couple of facts and a bit of context, even.
Dayum!
__
However, I will also say this: How illuminating of at least one of you to conflate Shouting Thomas and rcommal. LOL. This explains a lot about you who must be an example of a thoughtless "conflater." Well, I can only wish you well as I am noting never to take you seriously.
Make no mistake, I truly am wishing you well (and do not wish you personal ill, much less harm), even as I just can't take you seriously. Good luck!
Onward ho, so it goes, and so forth.
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