Althouse: "Cops Arrest Subway Riders For 'Manspreading.'"

May 29, 2015

"Cops Arrest Subway Riders For 'Manspreading.'"

The Gothamist reports.

55 comments:

James Pawlak said...: Will the "feminazis" insist that his "stuff" be cut off to physically prevent further such offenses?; 5/29/15, 11:01 AM
YoungHegelian said...: 'Cause the cops just ain't got enough reasons to hassle minority guys already! Is there really a need to shut down "manspreading" at 12:11AM on the subway?

Notice how they use the most anodyne white guy on the planet to model "manspreading". Yeah, right! Ride the DC subway long enough, and you discover that young black men seem to be unable to sit in a subway seat any other way.

Maybe minority 'nads just need more fresh air to function than white 'nads. It's simply a medical thang, you understand.; 5/29/15, 11:04 AM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: Cops Arrest Subway Riders For 'Manspreading.'

...

Men have structured the world to serve the interests of men

Right.; 5/29/15, 11:06 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: What's wrong with "manspreading" is it's not punishable by a properly efficient public caning.; 5/29/15, 11:09 AM
President-Mom-Jeans said...: Feminazis diktats and unionized thugs with badges and a license to extort revenue, what could go wrong?; 5/29/15, 11:14 AM
President-Mom-Jeans said...: I wonder how long it will be before some poor guy gets choked to death for this.; 5/29/15, 11:15 AM
chickelit said...: YoungHegelian said...
Yeah, right! Ride the DC subway long enough, and you discover that young black men seem to be unable to sit in a subway seat any other way.

Maybe minority 'nads just need more fresh air to function than white 'nads. It's simply a medical thang, you understand
___________________
It also be Rosa Parks related: they feel entitled to take up more than one seat to redress past grievances.

Just a hypothesis.; 5/29/15, 11:17 AM
Robert Cook said...: It is very rude for men to sit with their legs wide open on a fairly full train, preventing those from sitting who are too timid to ask them to make room, but it does not in the least rise to the level an being an "arrestable" offense. At most, a citation should be issued. At times when a train is more empty than full and seats are easily available, even a citation is too harsh; then, merely a reminder by the cops to the riders is all that is warranted. Think of the squandering of public funds to arrest citizens for this act, as well as the ill will generated toward the police.; 5/29/15, 11:17 AM
lemondog said...: Is 'manspreading' the technical, legal name of the violation?

If a young tattooed pink-haired girl stretched her stacked heeled shoes across 2 seats, is she 'manspreading?'

How about a 300 pound woman?

Irritating term.; 5/29/15, 11:21 AM
Richard Dolan said...: When everything is a crime, what do you expect? The NYPD has always denied that it requires officers to meet arrest quotas. What they mean is that they are a bit more subtle -- they rate officers by how well the officers meet productivity targets, and precinct commanders have discretion to take an officer's productivity into account in deciding who gets the plum assignments, the best shifts, etc.

It's hard to find a sensible balance. Even harder when there are no incentives to do so.; 5/29/15, 11:24 AM
jr565 said...: Is there a law against man spreading?; 5/29/15, 11:25 AM
jr565 said...: We should also arrest women then for woman crossing. Where women take up extra space by crossing their legs. And the only reason they too aren't "man spreading" is because many wear dresses, and thus man spreading would expose their junk.; 5/29/15, 11:27 AM
MadisonMan said...: How many people have actually read the article, I wonder? Based on the comments here, not many.

Who expects to be arrested for having a foot on the subway seat of an empty car? Why is that even illegal?

Are there any good Police in NYC at all? Apparently not, based on the press they get. If I were a good cop in NYC I'd be increasingly pissed at the conduct of my fellow workers.; 5/29/15, 11:40 AM
Ann Althouse said...: It's one thing to have rules of conduct. It's another to arrest people! I suspect the rules are made without expecting that anyone will actually be arrested for them, but that the potential for arrest will only be used in the process of exacting compliance. That creates a terrible opportunity for the police.; 5/29/15, 11:57 AM
chickelit said...: Ann Althouse said...
It's one thing to have rules of conduct. It's another to arrest people! I suspect the rules are made without expecting that anyone will actually be arrested for them, but that the potential for arrest will only be used in the process of exacting compliance. That creates a terrible opportunity for the police.

Why have rules if they are going to be flouted? I thought NYC was turning away from policing minor things. Whose job is it to police the minor things? The scowlers?; 5/29/15, 12:00 PM
Gahrie said...: Is there a law against man spreading?

There is on the NYC subway system. it is supposed to prevent people from using more than one seat when the subway is crowded.; 5/29/15, 12:16 PM
Scott M said...: I've asked this before and will do so again. Just how affluent does your society need to be before this sort of thing becomes an issue?; 5/29/15, 12:28 PM
lgv said...: I have read the article. So, two guys are "man spreading" at 12:11am on the subway. The officer approaches them and places them under arrest for man spreading and actually takes them to jail where they are arraigned. This is a new level of absurdity,

First, the law itself: 1) "taking up more than one seat when it interferes with the functioning of the train or the "comfort of other passengers."" Does this require a complaint by another passenger? 2) What about "obese woman in heavy winter coat spreading"? If she takes up two seats in rush hour, should she be carted off to jail?

Second, enforcement: 1) Were the perpetrators of this dastardly crime asked to pack it tighter and get those knees together, but they refused, which necessitated being cuffed and taken to jail? Or is it policy just to arrest on sight? 2) Does this offense require actually hauling in the suspect to jail and eventual arraignment, or can a simple citation be written? This level of enforcement seems to me to not be very cost effective, nor is a good use of limited resources.; 5/29/15, 12:31 PM
Scott M said...: It is very rude for men to sit with their legs wide open on a fairly full train, preventing those from sitting who are too timid to ask them to make room, but it does not in the least rise to the level an being an "arrestable" offense. At most, a citation should be issued.

Agreed. It is very rude for fat people to want to ride a fairly full train, preventing those from sitting who are too timid to ask them to make room, but it does not in the least rise to the level of being an "arrestable" offense. A most, a citation should be issued.

I also agree that when the car is fairly empty, the transit cops should remind fat people to go on a diet, not cite them.; 5/29/15, 12:32 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: The two men had outstanding warrants for other Broken Windows charges, namely, being in a park after closing and public urination, and their arrests brought them out of the pool of 1.2 million New York fugitives who missed court dates or failed to pay fines for low-level offenses.

I don't really trust the reporting here. Since manspreading is not the actual offense, they are clearly paraphrasing what was going on in court. I suspect the mainspreading justified the officer asking them for ID, which caused them to be picked up for the outstanding warrants. Manspreading may have been tacked on, but would probably not have gotten them arrested without the outstanding warrants.; 5/29/15, 12:50 PM
Matt Sablan said...: If we start arresting people who put their bag on the chair too, then whatever. Honestly, I see more seats going to waste for an office lady's second and third bags to have a chair than through manspreading.; 5/29/15, 12:54 PM
bleh said...: I am reminded of a story from about 15 years ago. A young girl walked onto the DC Metro with some french fries. The police had no choice but to arrest her.; 5/29/15, 12:57 PM
bleh said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 5/29/15, 12:57 PM
jr565 said...: "It's one thing to have rules of conduct. It's another to arrest people! I suspect the rules are made without expecting that anyone will actually be arrested for them, but that the potential for arrest will only be used in the process of exacting compliance. That creates a terrible opportunity for the police.

Why have rules if they are going to be flouted? I thought NYC was turning away from policing minor things. Whose job is it to police the minor things? The scowlers?"

I don't necessarily have a problem with cops arresting people for minor things (or issuing tickets and summonses) I just don't know if this should be one of those things.; 5/29/15, 1:01 PM
holdfast said...: Took the A train out to JFK last weekend - I had forgotten what it's like to take the Subway outside of Manhattan. Let's just say there was a lot of "blubber spreading", especially by women of certain backgrounds. In such cases, the spreader in question tends to occupy 35-50% of the seats to her immediate left and right. Should that not also be a punishable offense?; 5/29/15, 1:04 PM
Anonymous said...: Testicles hang away from the body for a biological reason. They must be kept cooler than normal body temperature to ensure sperm viability. This would be interesting to see play out in court.; 5/29/15, 1:04 PM
Jason said...: You can't have 'citations' without the threat of arrest. Citations are simply pre-bailed arrests. You doubt me? Blow off your court date and see what happens.; 5/29/15, 1:04 PM
Jason said...: If you outlaw manspreadding only outlaws will manspread!; 5/29/15, 1:06 PM
Jason said...: Did they cite or arrest any women with large purses? People with shopping bags? Big briefcases?

Oh, this isn't really about creating space on public transit, is it?; 5/29/15, 1:07 PM
Jason said...: If I were a cello player I'd leave town for good.; 5/29/15, 1:07 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ignorance is Bliss said... I suspect the mainspreading justified the officer asking them for ID, which caused them to be picked up for the outstanding warrants.
One of the lawyers here will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that'd make the whole deal a pretextual arrest and subject to dismissal, then, no?; 5/29/15, 1:07 PM
Jason said...: Yo Yo Ma, don't let the sun go down on you in this town, boy.; 5/29/15, 1:14 PM
Jason said...: I bet viola players are behind this. They want all the cello players to leave town so they can pick up their seats in quartets.

MICHELLE DULAK THOMSON, YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD!; 5/29/15, 1:23 PM
Francisco D said...: Why do we need government to get involved in our everyday petty affairs?

If a guy is taking up two seats by "manspreqding", ask him politely if you can sit next to him. If he cops an attitude, pull out your .357 S&W Magnum and ask nicely again. If he spits in your eye, blow his brains out. Man spreading will end quickly.

If it is a morbidly obese person, be grateful it's not you. Leave then alone and suffer the indignity of standing.

It's not hard for us to live together, is it?; 5/29/15, 1:29 PM
Todd said...: Well Francisco, when the world is full of "special snowflakes" there MUST be rules and those rules MUST be enforced (nothing sweeter than prosecutorial discretion) otherwise we have anarchy and you don't want anarchy now do you? DO YOU?; 5/29/15, 1:36 PM
Ignorance is Bliss said...: HoodlumDoodlum said...

One of the lawyers here will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like that'd make the whole deal a pretextual arrest and subject to dismissal, then, no?

Not a lawyer, but I don't think so. The pretext was only to ask for ID, not for the arrest. Once ID was established they were picked up on the outstanding warrants.; 5/29/15, 1:36 PM
Alex said...: 94% of those arrested for "manspreading" were of color. Oh boy how to resolve this condundrum if you're a social justice warrior?; 5/29/15, 2:17 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: The Prof writes: It's one thing to have rules of conduct. It's another to arrest people!

This is conceptually right, but wrong in its terminology. It's not "rules of conduct," it's called "manners." If you go to a baseball game with 35,000 fans, many of whom are drinking beer, the reason the whole thing works is "manners." These are unstated, un-written "rules of conduct," if you will. Everyone is generally shelling out 100s of dollars, and rooting for the home team, so "manners" are generally observed among kindred spirits.

On a Subway train, though, from what I've seen from riding Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) for 25 years, manners can be very poor. Most of the ill-mannered are young men. And, how do you enforce good manners, without getting shot? You don't. You tolerate poor manners, and get off at your stop and move on to that glass of Merlot and hug from Wifey and the Kids back at the home.

Manspreading is a form of poor manners -- that nobody can or will enforce. So, by default, the police are elevating the concept of manners into hard and fast legal rules, and, now we have arrests, and silly articles like this one, crying racism, based on the arrests.

How do we, as a society, re-instill the concept of "good manners" in young people, riding Subways?; 5/29/15, 2:47 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: If he cops an attitude, pull out your .357 S&W Magnum and ask nicely again. If he spits in your eye, blow his brains out.

To be fair, NYPD apparently uses 9mm Glocks, likely Glock 17s, with obnoxiously stiff triggers, pretty well guaranteeing a lot of misses - but that is apparently ok, because there will supposedly be fewer accidental discharges (but likely more collateral damage when they do intentionally discharge their firearms).; 5/29/15, 2:55 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: The problem with this being a minority crime is that the police already hit the poorer communities hard for quality of life crimes. Remember the guy who died who was selling single cigarettes? For most of us, the fines are a nuisance, so we pay them, and then try to avoid such in the future. But, for those with the lowest incomes, they can't pay the fines, and so they just keep accumulating, often putting them in jail for a day or so every once in awhile, which sometimes means losing good jobs, which makes them even more unable to pay the fines.; 5/29/15, 2:59 PM
Ann Althouse said...: If everyone had manners, we wouldn't need rules. If everyone would just follow the rules, we wouldn't need any enforcement mechanisms.; 5/29/15, 3:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Typical NYPD priorities. While they're hauling off the cellists for manspreading, all the horn players sticking their hands up women's skirts get off scot free.; 5/29/15, 3:04 PM
chickelit said...: How do we, as a society, re-instill the concept of "good manners" in young people, riding Subways?

Start with finding the cause. But this must ultimately be related back to numbers to mean anything. I don't ride subways and so I don't know--I can't quantify things. I can't do experiments. You do though. Next time you ride, take mental note of who (in terms of race and ethnicity) is manspreading the most. There is a hypothesis (and an easily falsifiable one) which is an important first step in getting to the solution.; 5/29/15, 3:09 PM
chickelit said...: If everyone had manners, we wouldn't need rules. If everyone would just follow the rules, we wouldn't need any enforcement mechanisms.

"If people can't control themselves, the government will. If the government can't control itself, another government will."

It's Freudian: link; 5/29/15, 3:13 PM
Bay Area Guy said...: If everyone had manners, we wouldn't need rules. If everyone would just follow the rules, we wouldn't need any enforcement mechanisms.

Heh -- Prof, you should spend more time in actual classrooms or courtrooms with actual conflicts, rather than the pleasant conflict-free setting of the University faculty lounge:) In the real world, manners, rules and enforcement often get jumbled up.

If people, then conflicts.

@Chickelit -- a randomized, controlled trial on crowded, rush-hour BART trains in West Oakland, after shootings, protests and riots, might be doable, can I get a grant or something to publish my results?:); 5/29/15, 3:31 PM
chickelit said...: @Chickelit -- a randomized, controlled trial on crowded, rush-hour BART trains in West Oakland, after shootings, protests and riots, might be doable, can I get a grant or something to publish my results?:)

It might fly on GoFundMe if you use race and gender neutral language. Avoid official channels--they frown on pure science. For data collection, you should recruit volunteers or pay them nominal sums. I'd have to think about the best place to publish.; 5/29/15, 3:43 PM
Fabi said...: First world problems.; 5/29/15, 4:03 PM
Aussie Pundit said...: It is uncomfortable and tiring for me, as a man, to sit with my knees together for long periods of time. I can do it for a short burst but my legs get tired, and I feel the need to relax by letting my knees flop apart. Why doesn't 'knees-together' tire women's legs the way it tires mine?

I see women frequently sit with knees together, but never men. This more than cultural- it's physical (and I don't mean just the presence of male genitalia). I can hear feminists shrieking with forced laughter at my theory but I'm sure it's true.; 5/29/15, 4:16 PM
Aussie Pundit said...: also from the article

At 2:30 in the morning at the Canal Street station in downtown Manhattan, police officers arrested three New Yorkers at the same time: a young white woman charged with foot on a subway seat — although there were no other passengers in the car; and two young African- American men, ages 18 and 19, charged with walking between subway cars. The police locked up the woman and one of the teenagers for about 5 hours in a holding cell in the subway and released them with a DAT. The police held the other teenager overnight because they found an outstanding warrant on his record. As the woman was leaving the lock-up, an officer told her not to worry because the court would dismiss the charge against her.

Broken windows policing doesn't work when you have too many frivolous laws.; 5/29/15, 4:18 PM
Achilles said...: This is what you get when you replace individual virtue with government authority.

For Progs this story is 100% win. Police state focusing on poor and usually minority people. Separating police and community and causing angst.

But wouldn't it be great if the conservatives here had a little self awareness and stopped trying to use the government to enforce their view of the world on some issues while bitching about it on other issues?; 5/29/15, 6:47 PM
Gahrie said...: How do we, as a society, re-instill the concept of "good manners" in young people, riding Subways?

http://thesestonewalls.com/gordon-macrae/in-the-absence-of-fathers-a-story-of-elephants-and-men/; 5/29/15, 6:54 PM
Scott said...: They had pictogram ads on the E train that showed examples of bad behavior. They included on on "manspreading." But recently I haven't seen them -- I think the MTA took them down.

Do people do flashmobs anymore? I think a gigantic 'manspreading" event at Times Square station is called for.; 5/29/15, 8:46 PM
Scott said...: The fake crime of "Manspreading" is institutional feminist hostility toward men. This post deserves the "civility bullshit" tag.; 5/29/15, 8:49 PM
Char Char Binks, Esq. said...: Subway manspreading in NYC seems to be aggressive, intimidating behavior that can frighten other passengers and unfairly deny them the seating they paid for. Putting feet/shoes on the seat can damage the seat, and is filthy and disgusting. That these offenses are mostly committed by black thugs seems to make things just fine and dandy, to some people.; 5/30/15, 2:30 PM
Aussie Pundit said...: Subway manspreading in NYC seems to be aggressive, intimidating behavior that can frighten other passengers

Manspreading is neither aggressive nor intimidating. Anyone who is "frightened" by it should seek professional help for their dysfunctional anxiety, and probably shouldn't be traveling on a subway.; 5/31/15, 5:21 AM