David French's National Review article —
"Wisconsin’s Shame: 'I Thought It Was a Home Invasion'" — has attracted a lot of attention, but
M.D. Kittle of Wisconsin Watchdog focuses on one detail. Cindy Archer "looked outside and saw a person who appeared to be a reporter. Someone had tipped him off." Kittle writes:
But Archer’s suspicion that a reporter was present was apparently right – and indicates that secrecy is a tactic rather than a principle: a Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article published on the day of the raid, Sept. 14, 2011, indicates that a Journal Sentinel reporter arrived in time to see “about a dozen law enforcement officers, including FBI agents” raid Archer’s home....
“Around 9 a.m., a reporter saw four FBI agents – two of them wearing latex gloves – talking in Archer’s backyard before going into her house. Later, one removed a large box and put it in the trunk of an FBI car. They left about 10 a.m,” the Journal Sentinel story reported....
The secrecy of the John Doe investigation is supposed to protect those who may have done nothing illegal, and Archer has never been charged, yet her name was in the newspaper the day of the raid
and she was forbidden to talk about it. As French put it in his article:
As if the home invasion, the appropriation of private property, and the verbal abuse weren’t enough, next came ominous warnings. Don’t call your lawyer. Don’t tell anyone about this raid. Not even your mother, your father, or your closest friends.
The entire neighborhood could see the police around their house, but they had to remain silent. This was not the “right to remain silent” as uttered by every cop on every legal drama on television — the right against self-incrimination. They couldn’t mount a public defense if they wanted — or even offer an explanation to family and friends.
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285 comments:
1 – 200 of 285 Newer› Newest»This is the tactic. Punish with the process. Rick Perry and Tom DeLay know that Texas has Democrats that are as evil as those in Wisconsin. Why would anyone want to live in a blue state, let alone a red state with blue jurisdictions ?
Tar. Feather. Lamp post. Rail.
Does anyone want to live in a society where entire swaths of government start doing this kind of thing on a regular basis? These sorts of things, gone unpunished (and severely enough to send strong messages to others) gather inertia. Nights with long-ish knives inertia, if it's not nipped in the bud.
The Republican Congress ought to investigate the involvement of the Obama Administration's FBI in these Gestapo tactics.
At whose initiative did the Obama Administration's FBI become involved?
What considerations gave any jurisdiction to the Obama Administration's FBI?
What guidance did the Obama Administration's FBI provide to the Wisconsin state officials who conducted the John Doe investigations?
What guidance did the Obama Administration's FBI provide to the local police officers who carried out the Gestapo-style raids?
How did the Obama Administration's FBI participate in the examination of the materials seized in the Gestapo-style raids?
Does the Obama Administration's FBI still possess materials seized in the Gestapo-style raids?
Of course the "secrecy" was always a one-way process where the DA and SP would leak information to the MJS for presentation just the way the goons wanted to frame the issue.
This, of course, is known as intimidation and coercion, an attempt to cow the "presumed innocent" into (1) violating the order and therefore committing an act for which real charges can be brought; (2) admitting guilt to something in the hopes the Deep State backs off; and especially (3) to smear the target in a way that does not allow them to protest or protect themselves.
THIS is un-American and wrong. Who could defend such a tactic? Garage? Mad Man? Anyone? Buehler?
"Mike said...
THIS is un-American and wrong. Who could defend such a tactic? Garage? Mad Man? Anyone? Buehler?"
garage already has. There are no actions of the let garage wouldn't defend. Zero.
I believe MM has damned it, if I'm wrong, I think he would.
The only way to put an end to these tactics is to start using them against Democrats.
These tactics can only work on people who can be or are willing to be cowed.
I'm not referring to Cindi Archer; her power was completely overwhelmed. But "The entire neighborhood could see the police around their house, but they had to remain silent." is simply untrue. They chose to remain silent. Had they disobeyed and raised a storm of protest instead, what would the authorities have done? Moved in trucks mounted with machine guns and massacred the entire village?
The Republican Congress also should investigate the invitation to the reporter to report these Gestapo-style raids.
Congress will not get to the bottom of it, but Congress can raise a huge stink about this issue.
Identify the reporter and then summon him to a public Congressional hearing and ask him publicly to identify the person who tipped him off about the Gestapo-style raids.
Of course, the reporter will refuse to answer the questions, but Congress can inform the nation's public what Wisconsin liberals are doing to suppress free speech.
I don't understand this. Surely it is unconstitutional to demand that people tell no one? Say they had filmed it with cell phone camera. Wouldn't they be right to immediately send the film to every new outlet they could?
What recourse is there against those who did this? Are they accountable in some court? They should be punishable, and people who care should be taking steps to get them punished.
Progressives are headed for something they do not want to experience. But, aware that they are in danger of losing power, they pull shit like Wisconsin John Doe tactics, which simply draws them closer to the anger of the majority.
This is the nature of government.
Never doubt it.
Intolerable
How exactly did they get away with ordering the victims of these home attacks to not only say nothing to their lawyers but to say nothing to anyone else? Did these people suddenly have their First Amendment rights revoked? To hell with that! The first thing I would've done is hire a lawyer and then I would've told everyone what was going on. Prior restraint of speech is unconstitutional.
The people who ordered these raids belong in jail with their law licenses revoked. That goes for the prosecutors, the judge, and everyone else associated with these illegal acts. They also deserve to be sued, although the convenient immunity they grant themselves makes suing them difficult.
The secrecy of the John Doe investigation is supposed to protect those who may have done nothing illegal
I can't believe that's the real reason. If that were it, there would be the option to speak out about it if you wanted to.
This is about coercion and intimidation. It should not be acceptable to us.
I've been struck from the start about that "forbidden to talk about it." Forbidden by whom? What court order of secrecy is in play here? Or was it just terrorists in uniform issuing a warning to their victims not to "call the police"?
This is the second time MadisonMan has been lumped in with less savory company. I don't understand this. MM is a very level headed commenter that I would be loathe to lump in with any particular group.
Is this an issue on which conservatives and minority Americans can make common cause? Would President Obama veto a bill that makes law enforcement officials on all levels criminally responsible for egregious negligent violation of people's rights, and creates an organization - not part of the FBI - to enforce it?
"Would President Obama veto a bill that makes law enforcement officials on all levels criminally responsible for egregious negligent violation of people's rights, and creates an organization - not part of the FBI - to enforce it?"
Ask Louis Lerner. She might know.
The liberal media condones this behavior because they believe conservatives/Republicans are bad people.
I've noticed something about these raids that seems unusual, the police didn't shoot the barking dogs.
"Progressives are headed for something they do not want to experience."
This is not true. Those on the left celebrate the power of the state over the individual; they know that their opponents will not use the same tactics. It is the same with regards to speech suppression on college campuses - it is strictly a one-way street, and those on the left are comfortable in the knowledge that they, and they alone, are the ones who will use the power to suppress. They do not fear creating a precedent of power that will be used against them - they know it will not be. No, it is people of the left who will use, and who will celebrate, the power of the collective over the individual.
Their motto is: Submit. Conform. Obey.
hawkeyedjb said...
"Progressives are headed for something they do not want to experience."
This is not true. Those on the left celebrate the power of the state over the individual; they know that their opponents will not use the same tactics.
If they believe this, then they're ignorant of history. History suggests otherwise. Revolutions very frequently end up consuming the revolutionaries (useful idiots) and governments allowed the power to abuse the citizenry very often turn on those who supported giving them the power to do so.
The real question is why have the Republican Legislature and Gov Walker not done something to repeal this law and abolish these processes?????
Really, you just take this crap while you have the majority and teh governorship and you do NOTHING???????
This is the real reason why the conservative movement hates the Bushes and Mithc McConnell. Failure to use the majority to take action to advance conservative goals and to reign in the abuses of the Deep State.
"For the women who mourn their dead in the secret night,
For the children taught to keep quiet, the old children,
The children spat-on at school.
For the wrecked laboratory,
The gutted house, the dunged picture, the pissed-in well
The naked corpse of Knowledge flung in the square
And no man lifting a hand and no man speaking."
What, if any, legal recourse is there for the targets in this case and for the citizens of Wisconsin in general, in whose name this was done?
What is likely to happen now?
There are no actions of the let garage wouldn't defend. Zero.
I approve of this. Scott Walker’s ‘Breathtaking’ Plunge in Approval
"Charles Franklin, director of the Marquette University Law School poll, found Walker’s statewide job approval had dropped to 41% with 56% of voters disapproving. It was the governor’s lowest approval rating since Franklin began polling in January 2012."
Too bad it's too late.
dreams,
I think you're joking, but shooting the dogs would have complicated things considerably. The objective was to terrorize and hush the political opposition, while leaving the impression that they had done something criminal. Shooting the dogs or physically harming family members in any way would shred any remaining fiction that this was being done to protect those being investigated.
Facing such an overwhelming onslaught by their elected law enforcement officials, I do not blame these people for letting themselves be bluffed.
But bluff it still is, and the remedy is to send a report of the assault to every known news outlet and political opponents, with a recording if possible, and surely someone will pick it up.
They tell you not to talk about it, and it is a clear indication that talking is what they fear.
Omelettes - eggs people. If you want to bring forth a progressive state, you are going to have to trample the rights of anybody who objects.
It is only "reasonable" and "moderate."
Don't worry garage, I am sure it is not too late to get your blue gestapo to frog march Walker to prison on some trumped up charge or other!
Never keep up hope!
There's a Freudian typo.
Two words: Gestapo tactics
Any courageous folks on the left wanna distance themselves from these tactics?
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...
The only way to put an end to these tactics is to start using them against Democrats.
They have been. For decades. It is called the 'war on drugs'.
The right has condoned this behavior because they believe that poor Democrats are bad people.
Don't worry garage, I am sure it is not too late to get your blue gestapo to frog march Walker to prison on some trumped up charge or other!
Walker could be stabbing kittens on tape and ya'll would say it's a partisan witch hunt cooked up by liberals.
Politics in the Democracy in America at its best is a peaceful waging of war to overthrow the government at the next election.
Traditionally that required a concession that was the acceptance of defeat. And winners did not execute the losers, but replaced them at the public trough.
AlGore and George Soros's wealth changed that 15 years ago by Alinsky Tactics that are a perpetually financed war that seeks to suppress the losers by public slander and police quasi military backed up with the Nationalized Health system under the FBI/Gestapo.
Walker came in and defeated that. Walker is a very valuable leader.
"This is the nature of government."
This is the nature of government that is not answerable to its people; of a government whose people do not participate vigorously in the political process; of a people who are uninformed and who fill their time and dull their minds with the cheap entertainments and diversions of a society that inculcates ignorance and apathy as the primary character traits and consumption as the chief pursuit of its citizens; of a society whose people see their nation as, by definition and as a matter of existential fact, "exceptional" and "indispensable."
"Is this an issue on which conservatives and minority Americans can make common cause?"
This is an issue on which all Americans can make common cause.
tim maguire:
Forbidden by whom? What court order of secrecy is in play here?
Judge Kluka. Let's never forget her signing these orders and search warrants and make her name of a kind with Putin, Stalin and her other fellow travelers..like Chisholm.
Nice to see you could rope your hobby horse into the discussion Robert.
Oldest democracy in the world. Exceptional. Eat it.
CWJ:
This is the second time MadisonMan has been lumped in with less savory company. I don't understand this. MM is a very level headed commenter that I would be loathe to lump in with any particular group.
Maybe it was Mark I was think of. Don't mean to unfairly lump on MM!
Maybe Chisolm was attempting to catch Hillary's eye for AG in Jan. 2017.
Not a bad start, but shooting some dogs might have driven the point home a bit more.
Home, with sanctity, what a bullshit concept.
Cowardly Americans gave up their rights decades ago because "drugs are bad m'kay." Law and order GOPers like Reagan share blame for this, but not as much as Chisolm and his wife and the voters/activists/donors who support them.
Either way I'm bored with the "we're not gonna take this!" Blather. You will take it, your kids won't ever dream there was anything to think or do but take it. Good and hard. Seems the "I am too frightened of losing money if I enter a hand so I will fold every time and hope my blinds last forever" school of poker/life has some flaws of extreme consequence.
Putting an end to a funding mechanism for the Democrat Party which operated under the color of law is not the same as "stabbing kittens," garage.
The fact that, faced with these thugs, Walker kept his cool and fought back is a big point in his favor.
AReasonableMan:
They have been [used by Republicans against Democrats]. For decades. It is called the 'war on drugs'.
The right has condoned this behavior because they believe that poor Democrats are bad people.
Idiotic to the core. Both parties in power prosecuted the war on drugs and Americans of all stripes have been caught up in this mess. Making THAT a partisan issue is just you trying to excuse abhorrent behavior by the Deep Blue State that you love so much.
"Would President Obama veto a bill that makes law enforcement officials on all levels criminally responsible for egregious negligent violation of people's rights, and creates an organization - not part of the FBI - to enforce it?"
Unlikely, as he, no less than his predecessors, is the custodian of the American plutocracy. His successor will carry on in like manner.
Seeing as there are 4 Republicans involved in this investigation, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Republicans are teaming up with Democrats to take down Walker?
THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!
Hopefully the tip to the press backfires due to the fact that the reporter had the integrity to document the involvement of the FBI in the raid.
Yet civil libertarians can take solace in the fact that Hillary's server containing government documents was never at threat in her inviolable Chappaqua home.
garage mahal:
Walker could be stabbing kittens on tape and ya'll would say it's a partisan witch hunt cooked up by liberals.
Interesting (well, pitiful really) that you have to fantasize about a hypothetical act on Walker's part to deflect attention from the fact we are talking exactly about a partisan witch hunt cooked up by liberals!
You are a parody of yourself G Man.
"Nice to see you could rope your hobby horse into the discussion Robert.
"Oldest democracy in the world. Exceptional. Eat it."
That you believe we remain a democracy in any least little way shows how utterly you have been seduced by the lies told by the powerful.
I am puzzled by the muzzling that apparently occurred. How can the cops tell you to keep something quiet, to tell no one? Does the double secret grand jury have the ability to yank that right away from someone?
How about, no. How about, I think I won't keep quiet about this?
"Living political constitutions must be Darwinian in structure and in practice. Society is a living organism and must obey the laws of life, not of mechanics; it must develop. All the progressives ask or desire is permission—in an era when “development,” “evolution,” is the scientific word—to interpret the Constitution according to the Darwinian principle . ." -- Woodrow Wilson
Here come garage and ARM back to celebrate fascism again.
Mike said...
Both parties in power prosecuted the war on drugs
This is true is the same sense that it is true that the Democrats are responsible for the war in Iraq. Some craven Democrats caved into a blitzkrieg of negative publicity. I am not defending the Democrats, they are hopeless, but they are neither the initiators nor the perpetuators of this particular war. They are 'soft' on crime, just as they insufficiently belligerent in their foreign policy.
Progressivism -- "Wilson's Justice Department created . . the American Protective League (APL), whose agents functioned as private investigators on behalf of the federal government. Their task was to monitor the activities of their neighbors, co-workers, and friends; to read their neighbors’ mail and listen in on their phone calls. As of 1918, the APL had branches in some 600 cities and a membership in excess of 250,000. The U.S. Assistant Attorney General boasted that America had never been more effectively policed. All told, during the Wilson years, some 175,000 Americans were arrested for failing to adequately demonstrate their patriotism. All were punished in some way; many were jailed."
Seeing as there are 4 Republicans involved in this investigation, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Republicans are teaming up with Democrats to take down Walker?
Were the Republicans kept up-to-date via the secret gmail accounts the investigators used to avoid scrutiny?
This is an issue on which all Americans can make common cause.
Everybody except Garage...wait...he really isn't an American.
Never mind.
Hardly surprising that garage has not yet scraped together the integrity to say this is wrong. So busy is he trying to find a way to blame Republicans that there's just no time for anything else.
@Robert Cook
I guess if you get to re-define the word "democracy" or any other word you choose, then you can win every argument.
For example, garage defines democracy as going down to the capital, tackling an elected representative, and shouting in his ear with a bull horn. Or raiding political enemy's private homes and seizing their property.
But sorry, not buying your puerile word games.
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...
The only way to put an end to these tactics is to start using them against Democrats.
They have been. For decades. It is called the 'war on drugs'.
The right has condoned this behavior because they believe that poor Democrats are bad people.
4/22/15, 8:26 AM
Way to jumble the topic cause busting in the front door of a crack house is EXACTLY like this!
Gabriel said...
Here come garage and ARM back to celebrate fascism again.
You know what fascism looks, you pathetic fucker? It looks like our current prison system, where millions of people are in prison or gaol for minimal offenses thanks to "tough-on-crime" laws supported by assholes like you. Higher incarceration rates than Russia, North Korea and Iran. That's fascism. Defend that, you useless piece of shit.
When you are clearly in the wrong, bang the table, isn't that right ARM?
I bet if you got your own blog to talk about your pet issues, lots of people would read it and comment.
Defend that (high rates of incareration), you useless piece of shit.
I'd say the dramatic decrease in the amount of crime in recent years is a good place to start.....
Walker could be stabbing kittens on tape and ya'll would say it's a partisan witch hunt cooked up by liberals.
You're right. It COULD happen.
I'll note that we are referring to what IS happening (you supporting and justifying Gestapo tactics by the police) while you obsess over what MIGHT happen.
Higher incarceration rates than Russia, North Korea and Iran. That's fascism. Defend that, you useless piece of shit.
Our criminals end up dead far less often than in those lovely places. We also don't torture our criminals as they do.
But nice deflection.
Yeah, and ARM, constantly adding new criminal statutes, as Dems are quite fond of doing, now have it where everybody is likely violating a law of some sort.
Which does WONDERS for maintaining "respect" for the law.
Much of law enforcement is having the average person follow the law to avoid penalties. But what if EVERYBODY decides to ignore the laws?
Now would be the time for Walker and the WI Republicans to act to curb the Democrat fascists. Repeal qualified immunity for cops, judges and prosecutors indeed for all government employees for misconduct or for criminal acts and allow by statute for them to be held personally liable including forfeiture of all pensions and benefits and having their incomes garnished in their entirety above minimum wage for payment of damages. A little fear would go a long way in curbing abuse.
Milwaukee County has the highest incarceration rate in the country. Chisholm investigates tens of thousands of cases annually. But righties think one case, this one case, is fascism. Great stuff.
"Higher incarceration rates than Russia, North Korea and Iran."
Higher incarceration rates than those reported by Russia, North Korea, and Iran.
Though to be fair, I actually am opposed to the War On Drugs as it is being fought: forfeiture of assets without due process, no knock raids, three strikes laws, etc. It is eroding respect for our civil rights.
Perhaps that is why the Wisconsin officials felt they could get away with such tactics. They had already been using them for years. Just not against their political opponents.
ARM's idea of primary voting.
"I'd like a democrat ballot please."
"Certainly sir. Here's your ballot and a clean hypodermic needle."
Chisholm investigates tens of thousands of cases annually. But righties think one case, this one case, is fascism.
Police break into your house with no expressed reason. Take your belongings with no expressed reason. Tell you that you're forbidden to TALK to anybody (including a lawyer) about what happened.
Nope, nothing to see here. It's just an average day in Wisconsin.
garage mahal: It's not Fascism until I say it is. And I won't. Until it happens to somebody I support.
Garage, honest question: Lots of people are tired of this nonsense. And the people who oppose it tend to be armed and not be nice while the supporters seem to be pathetic little pantywaists.
Do you think this will end well?
. But righties think one case, this one case, is fascism.
So you don't think there is anything worrisome in using the police against your political enemies in service of your politics?
Of course not! Anything goes when it comes to lining the pockets of Democrats and public sector workers!
People who comment here who think the Right hasn't paid enough attention until now could use this raid to say, "You're right, this is awful, and here are other places where it is happening"
You know, Find common ground.
But no. Even when they agree they can't stop trying to shame their political opponents. It's reflexive at this point, I guess.
Lots of people are tired of this nonsense
You're tired of one investigation into Walker and conservative donors.
Apparently GM can't tell the difference between ordinary crimes and political crimes.
As for the reporter being tipped off, a question for our hostess: by tipping off the reporter did not the prosecutor violate the law that was being enforced? And does WI law allow for some sort of special prosecutor to be appointed to investigate criminal activity that may have been committed by another prosecutor?
Gahrie said...
I'd say the dramatic decrease in the amount of crime in recent years is a good place to start…..
Another fascist, with his jack boot implanted in that face of our country. What does the view look like from Berlin?
No evidence to support your pathetic little theory. It is generally considered to be one of the least likely explanations for the decline in crime, since incarceration has the tendency to increase the criminality of those incarcerated. Make people criminals for not good reason and they don't respond well.
But you don't give a shit about that, because you are a nasty little fascist who just likes locking people up, as long as they are not like you.
This is what Democrats do. This is who they are. Corrupt, dishonest, lawless, and immoral.
"But righties think one case, this one case, is fascism."
You mean the case where government agents invaded the homes of citizens due to their political beliefs and entirely legal political activism? The one where their phones and computers were confiscated and their electronic communications were monitored in an attempt to identify other activists so they could be harassed as well? The case where government agents threatened the activists with jail if they so much as discussed why they had been subject to a SWAT team raid with their neighbors while leaking information about a upcoming raid to news paper reporters so that they activists names could be dragged through the mud?
Yeah, fascism is an actual political philosophy. That is straight-out mafia government.
Cause Garage, those government agents, they don't give a crap about the liberal politics they claim to champion. People who act like that, they are all about the power.
"Tar. Feather. Lamp post. Rail."
As a former county prosecutor in a neighboring state, I agree 100%. Name names, do it again, file grievances against the bar licenses of these prosecutors and this judge. Take to the elected authority responsible for funding the police agencies that supported this work and demand budgetary consequences for the departments that abused these people.
This is an abuse of prosecutorial authority on a local level like nothing I have ever seen or even heard of.
The local prosecuting attorney for the County, representing the People -all of the People, has as their first duty to be the FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE in the fair and equal administration of justice, at every level of any prosecution. They are the voice of the law. They do not represent the police. They should not seek a determined outcome. They evaluate the facts presented and apply the law, with their purpose above all to see that abuses of the system, in any manner, but particularly at the earliest stage of any investigation are held to the tights scrutiny in the interests of justice, doing the right thing.
The prosecutor evaluates investigates presented facts based upon complaints. For any prosecutor to initiate an investigation, especially within their own jurisdiction is a ringing bell of a conflict of interest at the very minimum. Of course, Chisholm et al went well beyond this and to expect them to hold themselves accountable to their oath of office is a fallacy.
There is a current equivalent of "Tar. Feather, etc." It is called a grievance. Not living in WI, I am not familiar with the process there, but googling or calling the equivalent of the State Bar Association and asking the ethics staff what the basis and process are simply involves picking up a phone. The forms are general basic as they are created to allow anyone to file any request or belief that an evaluation of an attorney's ethic or performance may be in the best interests of the bar association, and in this instance of the State of Wisconsin.
Anyone can file one. Copy a newspaper article with the story included and spend two minutes filling out the basics of the form. How are these officials not papered from every conceivable angle with grievances seeking their disbarment?
As for garbage posters -unless some of the posters (who seem sincerely outraged or at the very minimum concerned about abuses of this nature, as everyone should be, because what happens once without consequence will surely be revisited on many more at the next and earliest opportunity) enjoy his/her crap and the give and take, why give her/him the attention s/he makes and takes from her/his posts?
Ignore it; without a host organism for s/he to feed from, s/he and the malignancy that s/he is will slowly disappear as they realize what for them is humorous and fun, is -because it is given a platform, slowly scraping away and expediting the erosion of any remaining civility and understanding, such as we last had in the few days after 9/11 and before that in WW2, of the common good that we as a people were all in this together.
If these abuses are not "punched back, twice as hard", the next state and federal "inquiry" could be at anyone's door, leaving that person wondering why they had not acted sooner when they had the opportunity.
It is generally considered to be one of the least likely explanations for the decline in crime, since incarceration has the tendency to increase the criminality of those incarcerated.
Sure, "considered to be" by all "right-thinking people," I am sure. It is a matter of faith.
Only a liberal thinks that the argument that something is true because they believe it should carry the day.
You're tired of one investigation into Walker and conservative donors. - garage
He thinks it is all fine. He really does. Because anything is justified in garage's mind. Just keep that in mind Wisconsin Democrats, that is what you are voting for.
If incarceration increases criminality, you would think that our crime rate should be climbing, but if you are a liberal, well, you know, "math is hard" and so we can keep pursuing policies that "increase criminality" and watch crime fall anyway and never question our assumptions!
MayBee said...
People who comment here who think the Right hasn't paid enough attention until now could use this raid to say, "You're right, this is awful, and here are other places where it is happening"
You know, Find common ground.
Bingo! This is why you're one of the posters I scan for in long comment sections.
Robert Cook said...
"This is the nature of government."
This is the nature of government that is not answerable to its people; of a government whose people do not participate vigorously in the political process; of a people who are uninformed and who fill their time and dull their minds with the cheap entertainments and diversions of a society that inculcates ignorance and apathy as the primary character traits and consumption as the chief pursuit of its citizens; of a society whose people see their nation as, by definition and as a matter of existential fact, "exceptional" and "indispensable."
No, this is the nature of gov't period. Gov't is the use of force. And as soon as you give some people power over other people, some of those in power will abuse it. The temptation is great.
"next came ominous warnings. Don’t call your lawyer. Don’t tell anyone about this raid. Not even your mother, your father, or your closest friends."
The person or people that said this need to be taken out back and shot through the head.
Apparently GM can't tell the difference between ordinary crimes and political crimes.
So you think Republican prosecutors are teaming up with Democrats to take Walker and donors out?
Garage: Walker could be stabbing kittens on tape and ya'll would say it's a partisan witch hunt cooked up by liberals.
Yup. But that's because you and your kind have cried Wolf! so many times now, we don't trust anything you say.
You have immunized Walker against legitimate charges of corruption. Nice job doofus.
Re: A Retarded Man @ 8:58
Hitting the sauce a little early today, eh? Oh well, It's Five O' Clock Somewhere
Laughable that our resident Gauleiter is calling other people Nazis.
ARM: "Goebbels, you magnificent bastard! I read your book!"
Do you need to retire to a Safe Place, Garage?
Uptwinkles if nodding is a Trigger Warning for you.
Oh my, did I just commit a micro-aggression? Do you need to wipe yourself? Or just fall straight toward the fainting couch?
No evidence to support your pathetic little theory
Except reality.
"...sorry, not buying your puerile word games."
No word games, Tim, just statement of fact. You're playing mind games... with yourself...to avoid the cognitive dissonance you would experience if you faced the reality that is around you and every one of us in this country every day.
As the Sub-Geniuses say, you've "pulled the wool over your own eyes" and are "relaxing in the safety of your delusions."
THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!
Doesn't work in the era of cell phones. One great Horror line gone.
If a person does talk about this, say, exercising their freedom of speech, I don't see how the prohibition would ever hold up in Court -- especially given that a Report of the raid was in the paper, apparently at the behest of the people organizing it. So it's not like "they" can claim it was a big secret.
Of course, the person who talks will end up asking (after all the action in the Court) where they go to get their reputation and their money back. Georgia Thompson at least got money back from the State. Perhaps it's time that Milwaukee County reimbursed Archer (if she had material losses -- not sure if she did).
Laughable that our resident Gauleiter is calling other people Nazis.
You know, the way the Left has behaved with their little online Kristallnacht at Memories Pizza, I think we need to suspend Godwin's Law.
Act like a Nazi, be compared to the Nazi.
I hope Wisc. gets a handle on this, ala Mike Nifong in NC, if they don't, this kind of behavior by govt will lead to armed men in the street.
"(Various listed abuses used in the "war on drugs") is eroding respect for our civil rights."
We have no civil rights left to respect! They're in the dustbin.
MayBee said...
People who comment here who think the Right hasn't paid enough attention until now could use this raid to say, "You're right, this is awful, and here are other places where it is happening"
You know, Find common ground.
But no. Even when they agree they can't stop trying to shame their political opponents. It's reflexive at this point, I guess.
More hypocrisy. I have done this on numerous occasions and there have been a few non-fascists who have chimed in, in general agreement. But this board is dominated by jack-booted fascists who have ruined freedom in this country and they are too committed to their morally abhorrent polices to turn back now.
Fascists. Fascists. Fascists. The same kinds of people who lined up to send the Jews to the ovens now get their kicks sending poor people to prison in the US.
Perhaps it's time that Milwaukee County reimbursed Archer (if she had material losses -- not sure if she did).
Walker gave Archer the position of Chief Information Officer for the State Public Defender’s Office, at a 31% pay raise from her predecessor.
Presumably for this:
“Consider yourself now in the ‘inner circle’. :) I use this private account quite a bit to communicate with SKW (short for Scott Walker) and (Walker chief of staff Tom) Nardelli,” Archer wrote to Rindfleisch. “You should be sure you check it throughout the day.”
Wow thanks, tim maguire. The feeling is mutual!
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Why can't Jews get elected in red states? Too many fascists.
Tim, just statement of fact. You're playing mind games... with yourself...to avoid the cognitive dissonance you would experience if you faced the reality that is around you and every one of us in this country every day
Now disagreement with Bobby Cook is "delusion." We know all about the Soviet use of psychiatry, Robert. We know that it is a reflex reaction of the left to believe that any who disagree with them are crazy. We also know that the left has no problem using the police against their political enemies.
garage says "one case"
We have Ted Stevens, Scooter Libby, who was offered an escape if he would deliver Dick Cheney, we have Rick Perry, arrested for use of his constitutional powers as governor.
This is not "one case," it is part of a deeply disturbing trend. And you are right there defending the brownshirts, right where we knew you would always be.
ARM, keep changing the subject, whatever it takes to draw attention of the thug jack-booted tactics of the Democrats. Whatever it takes, because eggs, omelettes.
Without a dishonest prosecution of Ted Stevens by the Holder "Justice Department," we would never have had Obamacare, so these kinds of tactics are worth it, right ARM?
Garage, that's the State acting. I think the County (Milw. Co) should be showing some good faith here by reimbursing Archer for any material losses.
@ARM
Check your meds bro.
Tim, I think Bush's Justice Dept did that.
ARM, keep changing the subject, whatever it takes to draw attention of the thug jack-booted tactics of the Democrats.
And Republicans. Why do you all keep forgetting that?
Good faith question here; Has all this John Doe, no discussion, no lawyers, stuff been tested in court? Wisconsin's much bally-hooed reputation for clean transparent governance sure has been debunked with this story.
@ARM: thanks to "tough-on-crime" laws supported by assholes like you.
No, sorry, libertarian. But thanks for assuming that anyone who's not Team Blue must be Team Red.
You can retract and apologize now, or you can quote me ever supporting "tough on crime laws".
And you can retract your lies from the other comment thread too.
For example, it was not just one person who was subjected to a SWAT team under this investigation. You never acknowledged or admitted your lie.
You were unable to quote any commenter who said that other SWAT team abuses are unimportant. You never acknowledged or admitted your lie.
You have not acknowledge or admitted that Democrats share equal fault in the war on drugs, or that Obama has been giving cops the hardware: $500 million worth in 2013 alone.
In the meantime your argument seems to be that because some Republicans support tough-on-crime laws, these Republicans deserved to have their civil rights vilated regardless of what their acutal opinions may have been.
Retract and apologize or STFU and GTFO.
Little Timmy, just another jack-booted fascist sending the Jews off the gas chambers, whoops, poor people off to prison.
Virgil Hilts said...
W. Wilson: "Living political constitutions must be Darwinian in structure and in practice."
There's no choice in that matter, any more than you can choose to ignore gravity, but the rest of that quote was pure nonsense.
Blogger Larry J said...
How exactly did they get away with ordering the victims of these home attacks to not only say nothing to their lawyers but to say nothing to anyone else?
It's just intimidation, no different than other thugs threatening witnesses: They got away with it because people aren't willing to stand up for themselves. I was the subject of illegal court orders and filed a motion stating that I was ignoring the bogus "orders" and asked to be found in contempt of court (certainly an appropriate phrase). Other than costing me a lot of money, nothing happened.
@garage: They're not even paying you, you know. You're a fascist for free.
Tank said...
Check your meds bro.
What for? I sound just like all the assholes who post here.
Gabriel, based on your comments above, you are not even a libertarian's asshole. You are just another jack-booted fascist who wants poor people in goal because it makes you feel good. Any excuse will do.
@garage: They're not even paying you, you know. You're a fascist for free.
"Writing in the Nation in February, Scott Keyes ran through Walker’s record on the issue and concluded that, over the course of his political career in Wisconsin, Walker had passed one law after another that resulted in more people being sent to prison for longer. “In just the 1997–98 legislative session, Walker authored or co-sponsored twenty-seven different bills that either expanded the definition of crimes, increased mandatory minimums for offenders, or curbed the possibility of parole,” Keyes reported.
Michael Tanner of the National Review, a magazine that has a solid claim on being the Nation’s exact ideological opposite, came to the same conclusion last month. “Most of the Republican presidential candidates are touting their positions in favor of reducing prison time, allowing some felons to expunge or seal their criminal records, and even reforming federal drug laws,” Tanner wrote. But, he added, “One big exception to this trend is Scott Walker.” Here’s Tanner summing up Walker’s achievements on criminal justice:
Walker ran for governor of Wisconsin as an old-fashioned “law and order” Republican, pledging “to protect our families, our senior citizens and our property.” Bills that Walker sponsored while a legislator would have increased mandatory minimum sentences for everything from perjury to privacy invasion to intoxicated boating. He was perhaps the leading backer of Wisconsin’s “Truth in Sentencing” legislation, which ended parole opportunities for many categories of prisoners and increased prison time for others. As governor, Walker has resisted efforts to liberalize the state’s parole system, and the proportion of inmates granted parole has fallen in half during his tenure."
@Blogger Larry J:Blogger Larry J said...
How exactly did they get away with ordering the victims of these home attacks to not only say nothing to their lawyers but to say nothing to anyone else?
Because they law says they can if they get a court order.
The John Doe laws in Wisconsin have been on the books since the 19th century, but they may not have been used as creatively as this before.
If a judge is willing to sign off on it they can do all kinds of things to you. You might eventually win in court, but you'll still have had to take the ride.
And people like garage will gibber and caper, like Grima Wormtongue, and ARM will blame the victims and declare them equivalent to Nazis.
garage mahal said...
And Republicans. Why do you all keep forgetting that?
Because there are millions of people in gaol because of fascists like him.
You are right, it was the Bush "Justice Department" Holder just let them all of without even a slap on the wrist.
This is why Democrats went ape shit when Bush fired a bunch of US Attorneys who, constitutionally, served at his pleasure. Setting up political prosecutions like that one.
It's always been this way - from the Soviet Gulags, to Castro's Dungeons, to Kim Jong Un's Labor Camps.
This is the nature of government and the nature of the Party of Government.
ARM, there is a little spit dribbling from your chin every time you say "fascist," you might want to wipe it off.
AReasonableMan said...
Tank said...
Check your meds bro.
What for? I sound just like all the assholes who post here.
Steroids?
@garage: Walker had passed one law after another that resulted in more people being sent to prison for longer.
With his time machine? How did he sign bills into law in 1997 and 1998?
Did any opponents of Act 10 get swatted? No.
Because there are millions of people in gaol because of fascists like him.
The same people that defend unarmed people get shot to death, and defend cops when a handcuffed suspect mysteriously commits suicide in the back of a squad car.
"Now disagreement with Bobby Cook is 'delusion.'We know all about the Soviet use of psychiatry, Robert. We know that it is a reflex reaction of the left to believe that any who disagree with them are crazy. We also know that the left has no problem using the police against their political enemies.
"This is not 'one case,' it is part of a deeply disturbing trend. And you are right there defending the brownshirts, right where we knew you would always be."
See, you're not just deluded, you can't even understand what you read, (which I've suspected previously). I haven't in the least defended any brownshirts; to the contrary, I'm pointing out to you that our nation is now a nation ruled by brownshirts, yet you persist in asserting that we are still a "democracy."
Garage, the way you deal with a governor signing laws you don't like is to defeat him in an election... Oh, wait...
Well then recall him. Oh, wait....
Well then, break down doors in the middle of the night! But nobody should call you a Nazi.
"cubanbob said...
As for the reporter being tipped off, a question for our hostess: by tipping off the reporter did not the prosecutor violate the law that was being enforced? And does WI law allow for some sort of special prosecutor to be appointed to investigate criminal activity that may have been committed by another prosecutor?"
I don't know whether violating this would be a crime unto itself. But it certainly proves the case was not appropriately subject to the John Doe rules. If secrecy was so unimportant they could safely leak the information to the public there is no justification for the gag order or for the investigation to be secret in the first place.
If we had a decent DOJ the AG would be investigating everyone involved for violating the targets' civil rights, and Chisholm / Kolkata would be at serious risk of jail time.
Tank said...
This is the nature of government.
Never doubt it.
Truer words. . . . . .
The Democrat Party are nothing but fascists.
We need to break this country up - let the fascists have the Blue States and we (small el) republicans will take the Red.
yet you persist in asserting that we are still a "democracy."
Yes, it is a democracy, these kinds of abuses of power will be dealt with democratically. Just because a few malcontent, wannabee Nazis like garage and this prosecutor want to overturn our democracy doesn't mean they have.
You need to get a sense of proportion and context, you and ARM.
He doesn't like a law, a law that could be changed by popular will expressed in enough elections, and suddenly everybody he disagrees with is a Nazi.
BTW, ARM, if I were looking for Jew haters, any large meeting of Democrats would be the first place I would look.
"AReasonableMan said...
What for? I sound just like all the assholes who post here."
If a man wears his own shoes to work is it a coincidence?
Jew killer, Timmy still can't admit that it's his fascist policies that are responsible for the incarceration of millions. He get's his rocks off knowing he's helped make it happen. Fascist.
Why can't Jews get elected in red states? Too many fascists like little Timmy.
It is the defense of unspeakably evil actions on the left by Bitchtits Mahal that makes me feel perfectly moral in actively rooting for obesity related health ailments to end his worthless life.
Garage, the way you deal with a governor signing laws you don't like is to defeat him in an election... Oh, wait...
Again, tell that to the Republicans investigating him.
"Tough on crime" laws don't make one a fascist. Nor do "Truth in Sentencing" laws. If someone is given 6-10 years for assault, they should serve a minimum of 6 years, assuming good behavior on their part. Any serious misbehavior (instigating fights or riots, unprovoked aggression in the prison) should make it 8 or 10. Multiple instances of this behavior should add time onto the backend. Theoretically, I suppose, one could turn a 6 year sentence into lifetime imprisonment if they continue to start fights, assault fellow inmates/guards, or generally continue their criminal behavior. Fine by me. If you're trying to become the "badass" in prison instead of merely fighting back to survive the term, you probably ought to remain there until those jets have long since cooled. That's not fascism - that's common sense.
As for the War on Drugs, I celebrated a special holiday on Monday, in the privacy of my own home, and bothered nobody. If you're caught with drugs, or in a drug bust, you probably fucked up and deserved to get caught. In my opinion, the only thing wrong about the War on Drugs is that some of the Schedule 1 substances shouldn't be illegal at all, and many of the rest should be downgraded to a lower Schedule and lower criminal penalties. Maybe if we gave coke dealers a shit ton of mandatory community service (or put jailhouse druggies to work fixing potholes on weekends and living their lives during the week) we could solve the problem or at least extract societal benefit from these druggies.
"garage mahal said...
The same people that defend unarmed people get shot to death,"
So if an unarmed man beats his wife he's done nothing wrong? Why do people write such absurd things?
garage mahal:
You're tired of one investigation into Walker and conservative donors.
All lies as usual. What part of John Doe 1 and John Doe 2 leads you to believe there is only ONE investigation? Math is too damn hard for activists.
There are 28 Democratic Jews in Congress, and 1 Republican. Lee Zeldin (R-NY)
Oh this is rich. Hamas supporter Bitchtits Mahal is now going to opine on the amount of jews in Congress.
UnreasonableBitch working herself into a lather today too.
Good times, good times.
What part of John Doe 1 and John Doe 2 leads you to believe there is only ONE investigation?
True.
All the convictions from JD1 have held up through appeals. Do you think prosecutors should have just looked away?
It is a trifecta. Corrupt prosecutor, corrupt judge and corrupt media.
The comparison to 1930's Germany is apt.
A Reasonable(?) Man, re:
Why can't Jews get elected in red states? Too many fascists.
You may want to check out the background of the Speaker of the Texas House, Joe Straus. Sorry to burst one of your BS blimps. Now, can you get back to the topic at hand?
Again, tell that to the Republicans investigating him
Again, tell me if the Republicans on the board were part of the network of people using the secret Gmail accounts to avoid oversight.
AReasonableMan said...
Fascists. Fascists. Fascists. The same kinds of people who lined up to send the Jews to the ovens now get their kicks sending poor people to prison in the US.
4/22/15, 9:51 AM
You do understand that there is no debtor's prison in the US (except for fathers that miss child support payments) and so if there are poor people in prison, likely they have [you know] committed crimes. That is not 100% but by and large people in prison have earned it.
What part of this do you think is unfair? The actual crimes people are charged with? The trial process? The actual sentence? The prison "experience"?
What would you change and what would the results of those changes be?
Earlier (i believe it was) you mentioned minimum sentencing and three-strikes as (to paraphrase) tools of oppression. Don't forget, those policies were the result of liberal judges being too lenient on criminal sentencing. People were tired of seeing on TV news reports of apprehended suspects with rap sheets feet long. People with (in some cases) dozens of convictions for serious crimes running loose. If you find fault with the current system, look to the past that got us here.
On some of the current state of things, we do agree. SWAT teams should not be the first option and policing should not be a revenue stream. Changes need to be made but laws still need to be enforced and enforced consistently.
All the convictions from JD1 have held up through appeals. Do you think prosecutors should have just looked away?
So, did you EVER criticize Ken Starr? Just one single time?
Because he got more convictions than JD1 and violated far fewer rights in the process.
There are 28 Democratic Jews in Congress, and 1 Republican. Lee Zeldin (R-NY)
Ever been to a college campus?
The Left is the home for anti-Semitism. That Jews vote for a party that hates them is odd, but it is their decision to make.
And how many Democratic Jews are remotely observant Jews? Odds are it is none.
But, good to see ARM and garage accepting these tactics so happily. When the pendulum swings the other way, their complaints will be quite entertaining.
Obviously the federal justice department is not going to look into this, but doesn't the State of Wisconsin have an Attorney General?
You do understand that there is no debtor's prison in the US (except for fathers that miss child support payments)
...and, rest assured, it isn't conservatives calling for that, either.
People were tired of seeing on TV news reports of apprehended suspects with rap sheets feet long.
Or most recently watching judges go lenient on a home invader while castigating the parents of a 6yr old child who is afraid of blacks because the invader was black.
Conservatives have opposed police militarization. And, early on, many of us criticized the Ferguson PD for its tactics.
It's when it went from that to "cops just love to shoot the black folks, you racists!" that we jumped off board.
Todd said...
Don't forget, those policies were the result of liberal judges being too lenient on criminal sentencing.
Just another 'law and order fascist'.
The suggestion to file grievances against the lawyers and judge is a good one. The problem is one of ripeness (maybe not exactly legal ripeness, but pragmatically). How do we know that what they did was morally, ethically, and even legally wrong? Ultimately, and probably fairly soon, there will be courts finding the use of the John Doe investigations to have been done for bad, if not illegal, reasons. At that point, grievances could be filed arguing that the attorneys involved should have known that they were acting unethically (and illegally). Young attys could claim lack of training. The DA and his buddies? Most states, I think they would be disbarred. Very definitely here in CO, where elected DAs have been disbarred or given long suspensions for much less.
by tipping off the reporter did not the prosecutor violate the law that was being enforced?
You're assuming that it's someone in the Prosecutor's Office that tipped off the Reporter. Now, I think that's a reasonable assumption, but there are other possibilities too. (IF he did tip off the Reporter, then yes, of course, that's a violation, but the journalist won't turn him/her in and risk losing a "source").
AReasonableMan said...
Todd said...
Don't forget, those policies were the result of liberal judges being too lenient on criminal sentencing.
Just another 'law and order fascist'.
4/22/15, 11:07 AM
I am sure you will still have that opinion when your wife or daughter is raped by a serial rapist that is out on early parole or your home is invaded by a repeat offender released due to prison overcrowding mandates or if your child is attacked by a molester released early for "good behavior".
How can you sleep at night?
You're assuming that it's someone in the Prosecutor's Office that tipped off the Reporter. Now, I think that's a reasonable assumption, but there are other possibilities too. (IF he did tip off the Reporter, then yes, of course, that's a violation, but the journalist won't turn him/her in and risk losing a "source").
It wouldn't be the defendant who had no idea it was coming. The only possible option would be from the prosecution side.
The Democrat Party are nothing but fascists
Anytime I see the left calling the right fascists, I realize that someone, and maybe many someones, have little knowledge of what fascism essentially is. Historically, it was a brand of socialism competing for the hearts and minds of Western Europeans with Russian Communism. One big difference was that fascism leaves toke ownership in the hands of government cronies, as long as they toe the government's line. The sort of crony capitalistic socialism practiced by the Obama Administration is not that different from that practiced in Italy and Germany from the 1930s partway through the 1940s. Let me suggest that any one who wants to better understand what fascism was during that time, and how it compared to Russian communism should start with Hayak's contemporaneous "Road to Serfdom".
Todd said...
How can you sleep at night?
I do it knowing that I am not one of the jack-booted fascists who sent millions of people to incarceration because of misplaced feelings of moral superiority, the same feelings that led to the Jews being incinerated.
Why can't Jews get elected to congress from red states? Too many fascists.
"Todd said...
How can you sleep at night?"
Obviously he gets off on childish name calling and isn't a good person.
To me it's more interesting that he believes the left is so extreme that such childish hatred is considered reasonable by comparison.
That you believe we remain a democracy in any least little way shows how utterly you have been seduced by the lies told by the powerful.
We're still a democracy, Robert. The only way a democracy can be accountable to the people is if the people are educated enough to vote the right people in or out. Unfortunately, there has never been a time in history where that was the case.
This is the nature of democracy - two wolves and a sheep voting on the dinner menu. But there isn't a better way to do this, so we're stuck with it.
I am not defending the Democrats, they are hopeless, but they are neither the initiators nor the perpetuators of this particular war.
You are so wrong as to be laughable on this one, ARM.
Remember the crack and heroin scourges? Those happened in the inner cities. It was black politicians and church leaders that pushed HARD for tough laws to "get these drugs off our streets and away from our children." The rest of the politicians were just reacting to the pressure.
It wasn't republicans who perpetuated the drug war; it was Dems. You're not even in the correct zip code on this one.
AReasonableMan said...
"you pathetic fucker? ... assholes like you. ... you useless piece of shit."
Althouse, is there no comment so ridiculously empty, so profoundly lacking in any good-faith-debate content, that will not result in a deletion?
AReasonableMan said... [hush][hide comment]
Todd said...
How can you sleep at night?
I do it knowing that I am not one of the jack-booted fascists who sent millions of people to incarceration because of misplaced feelings of moral superiority, the same feelings that led to the Jews being incinerated.
Why can't Jews get elected to congress from red states? Too many fascists.
4/22/15, 11:24 AM
So, it is misplaced moral superiority to not want my women and children hurt by thugs nor have my stuff taken without my permission? OK, got it.
If that is the case, what is your address? You might have some nice stuff I could use.
Clayton Hennesey: But "The entire neighborhood could see the police around their house, but they had to remain silent." is simply untrue. They chose to remain silent. Had they disobeyed and raised a storm of protest instead, what would the authorities have done? Moved in trucks mounted with machine guns and massacred the entire village?
"They" in "they had to remain silent" refers to the same people as "their" in "their house." The Archers had to remain silent, not the neighborhood.
The government wanted the neighborhood to talk about what they'd seen - but all the neighbors could tell anybody was that the Archers were in trouble with the authorities. The government just didn't want anybody to hear the Archers' side of the story.
Why aren't there more Jewish Republican office holders? Because most Jews live in Blue districts in Blue states and even when they don't, tend strongly to remain Democrats.
What is frustrating to me in this regard is that the more Omama and the Dems dump their Jewish supporters to the curb, and the drive over them, the stronger the denial,the cognitive dissonance. When I ask Jewish friends how they can support a President who has repeatedly sold Israel down the river, their response is that the reason so many Christians in this country support Isreal so strongly is that they need the Jews back there for the End Days and the Second Coming. So, they would rather support Obama, as he gives Iran nuclear weapons. From the people who gave us much of the psychoanalysis field, I think pretty crazy behavior.
That all said, I think what happened to the formerly highest ranking Republican Jew in Congress, Eric Cantor, is interesting. He ran, and lost, as the consummate insider, at a time when many Republicans have turned away from inside politics. The problem, to me, is that the Jews in this country are better able than almost anyone else here to play inside politics. I suspect that if you were to look at the ownership of much of the companies that made out as bandits from the Obama Administration crony capitalism, a large number would be Jewish, far higher than their maybe 2-3% of our population. We could probably start with Sen. Fenstein's husband... Which maybe one way of saying that as long as the Tea Party is hanging establishment Republicans, a lot of Jews are going to stay Democrats.
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said:
The only way to put an end to these tactics is to start using them against Democrats.
As has been revealed, the press and the FBI participated in this. Both are highly politicized organizations and will not allow these tactics to be used against Democrats.
What happened in Wisconsin can only happen to conservatives.
Worst of all, the situation is so complex that it is very difficult to turn it into a "Bush lied, people died" style bumper sticker against the Democrats. Meaningful sound bites are hard to imagine: "Partisan Democrat prosecutors, judges and FBI twist John Doe laws to intimidate conservatives."
And Republicans. Why do you all keep forgetting that?
OK, fine. The republicans who are part of this mess are just as much scum as the dems who did it.
Happy now?
At this point, can you be an adult and admit that these kind of tactics are just wrong? And if you can't, then you really are too filled with hate to understand how you're hurting your own cause. And should get mental help immediately.
I'm not kidding - get help.
Why can't Jews get elected to congress from red states? Too many fascists.
How many run?
My state has a black US Senator and an Indian Governor. Our fascism isn't strong, apparently.
Don't worry, Robespierre thought he was safe from the mob.
I Callahan said...
It was black politicians and church leaders that pushed HARD for tough laws to "get these drugs off our streets and away from our children." The rest of the politicians were just reacting to the pressure.
Yeah, the black leaders are on your side on this one. Sure they are, just like the rabbis who voted for Hitler.
Republican politicians are just doing what black leaders wanted. Nothing to see here folks.
Just another 'law and order fascist'.
Oh, grow up, ARM.
No one here is a "fascist". You're acting like a spoiled 8 year old boy who didn't get what he wants.
If you can't handle the adult conversation, then don't opine.
Fernandinande said...
Blogger Larry J said...
How exactly did they get away with ordering the victims of these home attacks to not only say nothing to their lawyers but to say nothing to anyone else?
It's just intimidation, no different than other thugs threatening witnesses: They got away with it because people aren't willing to stand up for themselves. I was the subject of illegal court orders and filed a motion stating that I was ignoring the bogus "orders" and asked to be found in contempt of court (certainly an appropriate phrase). Other than costing me a lot of money, nothing happened.
That makes the cops just as guilty as the judge and prosecutor. When I joined the military 40 years ago, I was taught that we had a legal obligation to disobey unlawful orders. There is no way that ordering someone to not talk to their lawyer can be constitutional, so that is an unlawful order. The cops who obeyed the unlawful order should also be disciplined, perhaps fired if not prosecuted. The Nuremberg Trials established the precedent almost 70 years ago that "I was just following orders" is not a valid defense.
Gabriel said...
@Blogger Larry J:Blogger Larry J said...
How exactly did they get away with ordering the victims of these home attacks to not only say nothing to their lawyers but to say nothing to anyone else?
Because they law says they can if they get a court order.
The John Doe laws in Wisconsin have been on the books since the 19th century, but they may not have been used as creatively as this before.
Have those laws ever been tested at the federal level? There's no way that what the victims of this political witchhunt went through is lawful.
pogo101 said...
Althouse, is there no comment so ridiculously empty, so profoundly lacking in any good-faith-debate content, that will not result in a deletion?
If there is a trigger, it should have triggered hard the billionth time some idiot called a non-winger a fascist. There should some penalty for repetitive stupidity.
Fascist.
Only 999,999,987 Fascist name calls to go.
Yeah, the black leaders are on your side on this one. Sure they are, just like the rabbis who voted for Hitler.
What side am I on, ARM?
Look, honestly, you're obviously too upset to make any constructive comments. Why don't you go have a couple of drinks, come back, read the thread again, and try not to be so knee-jerk?
There's no way that what the victims of this political witchhunt went through is lawful.
Except when they nab Democrats, like Chuck Chvala. Then not a fucking peep about fascism or witch hunts. You guys are predictable if anything.
AReasonableMeltdown is well on his way to another post-heated-thread-discussion deletion frenzy.
Its clear that deep within ARMeltdowns psyche there is incredible lingering guilt over his active volunteer participation in the cuban totalitarian experiment as a self-admitted Verencemos Brigade "hero" who actually assisted in keeping a jackboot on the necks of the innocent cuban people.
ARMeltdowns tone and over the top accusation flinging of "fascist" approaches "amusing" when considered in that context.
I also see garage has hit the "reset" button hard today.
The quality of his posts are what we have come to expect when he ventures off alone without effective talking points.
AReasonableMan said...
'pogo101 said...
'Althouse, is there no comment so ridiculously empty, so profoundly lacking in any good-faith-debate content, that will not result in a deletion?'
"If there is a trigger, it should have triggered hard the billionth time some idiot called a non-winger a fascist. There should some penalty for repetitive stupidity.
"Fascist.
"Only 999,999,987 Fascist name calls to go."
First: What happened to your cursing? I was expecting at least three that would have justified giving a movie an R rating. You disappoint us.
Second: I seriously think ARM is trying to find out what it takes to get a ban, or at least a comment deletion.
In any event, it is past time for ARM to be given a time out.
The rest of us will do our best to ignore him. Unlike Garbage, ARM isn't even INTERESTING in his hypocritical stupidity. He just yells a lot like the crazy guy on the street, but, y'know, with a computer and stuff.
Bye, ARM. (Sure, get in your last word. I just won't be reading it -- or noticing if you DON'T.)
So, what we have here today is ARM, happy warrior volunteer to Fidel Castro who has had a long and loving relationship with middle eastern islamic terrorist groups, accusing others of being the types of folks who would march Jews into the ovens.
Seriously, is that simply not the perfect caricature of a leftist?
Except when they nab Democrats, like Chuck Chvala. Then not a fucking peep about fascism or witch hunts. You guys are predictable if anything.
Who's Chuck Chvala? Why don't you enlighten us on situations where the GOP does the same thing? And in addition, why would you automatically assume that we'd all say it's OK?
The answer to that last question can be answered with the word "projection". You dems seem to believe that because you think it's OK to go after your political enemies with such tactics, that we all think the same way.
As was pointed out to you before - the GOP, as a whole, doesn't operate this way. Nothing Walker did has ever been shown to be unethical, at least in light of the things done in this case.
It's up to you to provide links, evidence, and the like, to show the rest of us how we're ignoring stuff on our own side here.
I found a link to the story on "Chuck Chvala":
LINK
After reading about this, I can't possibly imagine why Garage would even make a comparison between the two.
I really am trying to be open-minded here. Someone please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something.
"don't talk to your lawyer" OR WHAT? That would not have stopped me. were they going to shoot her?
She enabled them by not further defying them.
I Callahan: "...I can't possibly imagine why Garage would even make a comparison..."
Garage lacks basic comprehension skills.
"sdharms said...
"don't talk to your lawyer" OR WHAT? That would not have stopped me. were they going to shoot her?
She enabled them by not further defying them."
They were going to send her to jail for contempt of court. Was she supposed to rely on the fact that any reasonable person would conclude such an action would be ridiculous given the circumstances?
After reading about this, I can't possibly imagine why Garage would even make a comparison between the two.
Hmmm, Chvala was investigated, tried, and convicted of a felony involving using a Senate staff member to run a legislative campaign on state time and using state resources, and a felony for exceeding campaign contribution limits. That was a John Doe proceeding.
How could I possibly link those two together?
"I Callahan said...
Someone please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something."
I think you misunderstand that he cares if his arguments make sense or not.
In light of this, Chuck Chvala should certainly receive a pardon from Walker, no?
I Callahan said...
After reading about this, I can't possibly imagine why Garage would even make a comparison between the two.
4/22/15, 12:23 PM
Unless it is full of "dog whistles" i can't hear, I agree with you. What was the point G was trying to make with that story?
Bitchtits really puts the "Fat" in "Fatwah." Haven't seen any news accounts of your pro Hamas spraypaint activism lately, tubby. Has Walker been oppressing you again, or have you just reached the homebound stage of your morbid obesity?
Admit it, lunchbox, you have to wash your back with a rag on a stick, don't you?
garage mahal said...
Hmmm, Chvala was investigated, tried, and convicted of a felony involving using a Senate staff member to run a legislative campaign on state time and using state resources, and a felony for exceeding campaign contribution limits. That was a John Doe proceeding.
4/22/15, 12:33 PM
That stuff was discussed in THAT article? The article was all about a dumb mailer and related small time politics. Did you link to the wrong thing?
Todd (to garage): "Did you link to the wrong thing?"
Again, garage doesn't understand what he thinks he is linking to.
It's not productive to request clarification.
Did you link to the wrong thing?
Um, no. I didn't link to anything. You want a link? See here.
"SENATOR CHARLES CHVALA
Convicted in October 2005 of two felonies: one for misconduct in public office for directing
a Senate staff member to run a legislative campaign on state time and using state resources, and
one for exceeding campaign contribution limits. Sentenced to nine months in jail (with work
LRB−09−IM−2 − 3 −
release privileges), two years of probation, a fine of $5,500, and was barred from working as a
lobbyist while on probation.
As part of a plea agreement, 17 other charges of misconduct and campaign finance violations
were dismissed, including allegations of extortion by asking lobbyists for campaign contributions
in exchange for scheduling floor votes on their favored bills. Had been charged in October 2002
with 20 felonies, although one was dropped prior to the plea deal.
The former Senate Majority Leader did not run for reelection in November 2004. "
By the way Pogo, demanding censorship is classic fascism.
Look, honestly, you're obviously too upset to make any constructive comments. Why don't you go have a couple of drinks, come back, read the thread again, and try not to be so knee-jerk?
When has that ever happened?
garage mahal said... [hush][hide comment]
Did you link to the wrong thing?
Um, no. I didn't link to anything. You want a link? See here.
Wait, so he actually DID do something wrong and illegal? And you still equate that with kicking in someone's door in the early morning hours on a fishing expedition in the hopes of finding anything they did wrong and then threatening them to keep them quiet? WOW, just wow...
tried, and convicted
This is the part you overlooked. Cindy Archer wasn't convicted of ANYTHING. Her house was ransacked, guns pointed in her face, dogs threatened, neighbors kept in the dark, and she was threatened with jail if she talked to anyone, including an attorney. Where did Chvala have to deal with that, even though he was actually convicted?
My point stands - there is NO comparison between the two.
"Why can't Jews get elected in red states? Too many fascists."
So much wrong in two short sentences. Besides the fact that despite the much smaller population of Jews in "red states", and the fact that there have been a number of Jews elected to high office in those states going back to the Confederacy (e.g., Judah Benjamin), the concept of "red state fascism" is so off the wall it's depressing to see it expressed by someone with access to a keyboard.
I would be very interested to hear where ARM disagrees with Fascist economic policy.
Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic authority conceived it. (Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices and wages politically. In doing all this, fascism denatured the marketplace.
Does the above sound more like Democrat ideas, or Republican ones?
Or is "Fascism" another one of those words that lefties get to define in their non-stop game of language Calvin-ball.
Some time in the future, I would like to see investigations, indictments, frog marches, tv orange-jumpsuit trials with tearful confessions, convictions, and confinement at Ft. Leavenworth not Club Fed at Maxwell AFB. And not just in Texas and Wisconsin. However, Republicans don't do things like that. If they did the laws would be changed to prevent it. As long as Democrats keep doing it, and nothing is done about it, it's only going to get worse.
Who's Chuck Chvala?
How the once-mighty have fallen!
Chuck Chvala is why there's a "co-gen" plant on the UW Campus.
My opinion is that he was way too involved in wheeling and dealing as a State Legislator. He and Scott... Hmm....Jensen? .. were both brought down in scandal. Jensen fought, Chvala didn't.
Okay, "non-stop game of language Calvin-ball" wins the thread.
Perfect description.
So if the person being investigated violates the secrecy requirement and hires a lawyer, and they then get put in jail, can they talk to their lawyer then? Or do they just get thrown in the dungeon and left in the dark?
I honestly don't understand how telling someone they can't talk to an attorney is even remotely legal. Can someone please explain that one?
My opinion is that he was way too involved in wheeling and dealing as a State Legislator. He and Scott... Hmm....Jensen? .. were both brought down in scandal. Jensen fought, Chvala didn't.
It's different if they have a R after their name isn't it?
garage mahal said...
My opinion is that he was way too involved in wheeling and dealing as a State Legislator. He and Scott... Hmm....Jensen? .. were both brought down in scandal. Jensen fought, Chvala didn't.
It's different if they have a R after their name isn't it?
4/22/15, 2:03 PM
I am going to be a little snide and say yes, it is different if they have an R after their name. With an R, they know the press won't cover for them and so they generally stay on the "right" (see that) side of the law whereas if there is a D after your name, as long as you are not found in bed with a dead underage girl or 2 live underage boys, you can pretty much do as you please.
It is interesting how the john Doe Indictment Investigation resembles the tactics of the vigilantes groups in the south who secretly met to enforce a secret terror campaign on citizens who were protected by the US Constitution and for a while the US Army during Reconstruction.
But the KKK did one up the Milwaukee DA's office in secrecy using sheets and hoods.
The story states the FBI was involved too? Why would the FBI get involved in a state investigation?
Did AG Holder offer his storm troopers to try and take down a Repub governor?
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