An editorial by Glenn Reynolds that's more about what's wrong with our culture of higher education than what might be wrong or right with Scott Walker.
[M]any college degrees don't signify much besides a limited ability to show up on time most of the time, and avoid getting so falling-down-drunk that you flunk out. Nor does attendance at college necessarily even produce a leg up economically. Some studies suggest that attending college can actually increase economic inequality, as graduates emerge with no better prospects of employment, but heavy student loan debt. Many students also don't learn much: In Academically Adrift, a study by Richard Arum and Josipa Roksa, researchers found that 36% of students "did not demonstrate any significant improvement in learning" over four years of college...
ADDED: In Salon, there's
"Scott Walker’s lack of a college degree: A non-issue that Democrats should avoid/There are plenty of things to criticize Scott Walker over. His lack of a college degree is not one of them":
If someone like Scott Walker has been able to achieve the career goals that usually require a college degree without having gotten that college degree, then more power to him. People who don’t have a college degree shouldn’t be relegated to lower-tier economic status because they didn’t spend four years as young adults reading CliffsNotes. Scott Walker was able to get a good job without finishing his degree. If only everyone could be so lucky!
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80 comments:
These kids who won't get off of my lawn show up to college already knowing everything, on account of advanced study of tumblr, imagur, twitter, etc. I wonder if you could learn, for example, petroleum engineering off of social media the way you can learn the best political and economic organization for 300 million people?
There are lots of dumb people out there with a college degree but those I've known with less than that are dumber, still.
If no degree was good enough for Brian Williams, it's good enough for Scott Walker.
You should be Walker's spokesperson.
The first thing I would shut down is the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. And yeah yeah I know it is a private university but it is a symbol of how huge and arrogant our fed govt has become.
I hire many Kennedy School Grads AJ.
I interviewed a candidate who was a prof at Kennedy School and she even said during the interview they were really liberal.
We hired her.
tits.
Titus seems to be spokesperson for the finger-wagging overeducated mandarin class.
Titus proves my point.
If Scott Walker can't answer a question about evolution maybe evolution is debatable.
If Scott Walker dropped out of college who is to say college is even a good thing.
If Scott Walker _______________.
Shouldn't we revisit the term "dropout"?
And inquire why such a depreciating word has remained in currency.
By most accounts, "dropouts" are drawn from the most disadvantaged groups in society.
Why in this age of enlightened empathy hasn't that language been stricken, especially among the most educated?
I took "finger-wagging" and "mandarin class" directly from Glenn Reynolds's excellent op-ed.
Read the whole thing. (As he often says.)
If Scott Walker can't answer a question about evolution maybe evolution is debatable.
"if","maybe"?
I think you need to look up the word "theory" again.
A couple years ago I helped a legal team (me with out a law degree) who sued a branch of the Federal Government for misappropriating the patent rights of a Midwestern inventors. We won and returned millions of dollars to the rightful owners. That's all that Scott Walker wants to do.
"Why in this age of enlightened empathy hasn't that language been stricken, especially among the most educated?"
Timothy Leary's dead.
There are people who have demonstrated the ability to do specific jobs. Some of them have college degrees and others don't. The biggest potential value of college credentials is for people just starting out in their career. They lack experience but the piece of paper suggests they can learn. Some of them work out, others don't.
If you're hiring someone for a specific job, you'd ideally like to find someone who has experience doing that or a similar job. Anyone who refuses to hire someone with a demonstrated ability to do the job but with the credential is an idiot.
One of my neighbors is a machinist with decades of experience. His company downsized and he had to find a new job. There were HR types who turned him down because he didn't have a degree. They were stupid enough to believe that a piece of paper was more important than over 30 years of experience.
"Drop out" suggested an active, selective, graceful process of detachment from involuntary or unconscious commitments. "Drop Out" meant self-reliance, a discovery of one's singularity, a commitment to mobility, choice, and change.
- Timothy Leary, from his 1983 autobiography Flashbacks
wait, Walker doesn't have a college degree?
for real?
Is our children learning?
researchers found that 36% of students "did not demonstrate any significant improvement in learning" over four years of college...
If 36% don't learn much in four years, then 36%/4 = 9% of students don't learn much each year; which means 81% do learn stuff each year.
So in four years, 4*81% = 324% of the students is learning.
I don't see a problem.
@Meade: An old 10 speed of mine still has original Campy drop outs: link
You don't have to go to college to be good at reading comprehension or to learn to write a coherent sentence (or paragraph), or to think analytically, or to have common sense. You could even argue that a sensible person of good common sense might quit college if he realized he was not getting any benefit from being there.
I went to college, but I had to go to learn my trade. I can't recall much that I learned there. The info that I use in my day to day job, I learned in medical school and residency training and life-long learning. I did not pick up life-long learning habits from college. These I got from my family.
I don't know whether Scott Walker is the best candidate for the job, but after William Jefferson Clinton (Yale Law), George W. Bush (Yale, Harvard MBA), and Barack Obama (Columbia, Harvard Law) I'd be perfectly on board with a law barring Ivy League graduates from ever holding being President of the United States.
LarryJ:
I had an uncle who was a tool & dye machinist. He lost four fingers in a work accident, was luckily moved into a mgt trainee role and ended his career managing a Bombardier manufacturing plant in NY state. He had no college degree but was a damn smart ex-Marine.
"If Scott Walker can't answer a question about evolution maybe evolution is debatable. "
garage, how about we discuss the relationship between mitochondria and Rickettsiae ?
He didn't answer it, not "couldn't." The fact that he did not make any attempt to answer it is a plus in my book.
"Fernandinande said...
Is our children learning?
researchers found that 36% of students "did not demonstrate any significant improvement in learning" over four years of college...
If 36% don't learn much in four years, then 36%/4 = 9% of students don't learn much each year; which means 81% do learn stuff each year.
So in four years, 4*81% = 324% of the students is learning.
I don't see a problem."
I do. Several.
The fact that he did not make any attempt to answer it is a plus in my book.
Not surprising.
The "root cause" of all of this is the SOCTUS decision that held that IQ and aptitude tests for job applicants were "inherently" "discriminatory." As a result employers were driven to use a college degree as a proxy for desired traits, hence the impetus for many unqualified, and/or unsuitable (in terms of personality) to attend college in order to get their "union card" enabling them to be hired. SO.....by totally altering/warping all of society in a true "tail wagging the dog" scenario to accommodate some 13% of the population, we are all suffering the present-day sociocultural dysfunctions we see taking place before our eyes in the work-place and academia.
I think it's great that 324% of our students is learning.
That is a statistic, and that makes it scientific and therefore citable in studies and papers and such.
Like the statistic in today's Journal Sentinel that 99% of 1-2 year old children in Nicaragua have received measles vaccinations in the last four years, so they cannot be the source of increased measles outbreak in the US. Now, I have no doubt the Nicaraguan government agency responsible for reporting vaccination rates reported the number at 99%, but to accept and adopt it uncritically as the troof, and then to republish without skepticism, well that's just good old fashioned journalism.
So Garage, what would your answer to the evolution question have been? Care to supply us with a tiny sample of your seemingly limitless wisdom? And remember, brevity is the soul of wit . . .
Garage: I bet that college dropout knows what a corporation is.
Just sayin'.
She was also an Asian, serouisly. How mandarin.
If no degree was good enough for Brian Williams, it's good enough for Scott Walker.
Add Chuck Todd to the list. Maybe that is why the journalists these days are cowed down and don't go after corrupt Ive League educated politicians.
Whenever I read a post from garage, I do so secure in the belief that he has considered carefully and with an open mind all sides of the issue and has no personal financial stake whatsoever aside from his desire to see Wisconsin and the country thrive well into the future on a solid financial footing.
Since the 200th anniversary of the Constitution (1988) every single President has had a degree from either Harvard or Yale (or both). That would have been the case in all but 2 of the 7 Presidential contests ('96 and '08) even if the opposite party had won.
The remarkable continuity since 1988 of our de facto open borders policy, free trade, Fed funded housing and asset bubbles, bank bailouts and even pro-democracy nation-bombing/building is a tribute to how thoroughly triumphant the conventional wisdom of these 2 universities has become.
Tim
You need to pay attention.
@AJ Lynch
I have a brother-in-law who is a retired pipe fitter and rancher. He's 78 and I'm not even certain he graduated high school, but over the years I've known him, he has given me some excellent advice on several topics. He may not be "educated" but he's pretty damned smart.
Yes, and politifact is an unbiased judge of "Truth" with a capital T, just like the Wisconsin Idea says. I am secure in that knowledge too.
Plus Media Matters, they are unbiased too. I know this in my heart.
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs dropped out of college and were pretty good managers and strategists.
"garage mahal said...
Tim
You need to pay attention."
LOL Once again, Walker faced twice the structural deficit, and balanced the budget and cut a billion in taxes, replenished the transportation fund that Doyle stole from, and eliminated furloughs.
He will balance this budget while lowering taxes.
He balanced Milwaukee County's budget every year without increasing taxes.
And you still have no clue about Wisconsin state budgeting.
I liked when Politifact explained how Jonie Earnst was sort of lying because people used other kinds of bags, not just bread bags. Snap! I mean, wow. That was a high point in the kind of open minded and intellectually honest kind of analysis that I have come to expect from garage too.
"Not surprising."
garage, you forgot your discussion of the mitochondria-Rickettsiae connection.
Now, do you think the reduced number of genes in mitochondria is a result of evolution ? Come on. I know you are brilliant and up to date on evolution.
How about chloroplasts ? Do you think they were free living bacteria that were incorporated in plants to do photosynthesis ?
I'll bet you could give us a nice discussion if you weren't so modest.
How about green sea slugs, garage ? How did they get chloroplasts ? Come on. Share !
Machine said...
wait, Walker doesn't have a college degree?
for real?
It's worse than that, Machine. He doesn't even have "a post high school education" according to Al Hunt.
Neither does Al Hunt, according to Wikipedia:
"He attended Wake Forest University, where he earned a bachelor's degree in political science
Hunt also went to the hoity toity Haverford School. Wikipedia doesn't mention whether he learned anything there, either.
John Henry
Larry J said...
He may not be "educated" but he's pretty damned smart.
I think you misspelled "credentialed".
He sounds pretty educated to me.
As does Walker, regardless of how much schooling he has had and regardless of his lack of a credential.
Best of all, as someone else here pointed out a few days ago, he is a "winner" as opposed to the "losers" who keep going up against him.
He keeps winning, they keep losing. Dictionary definition of winner and loser.
I've stopped calling the capital protesters wankers and begun calling them losers. They are actually both but "loser" is factual and "wanker" is an opinion.
John Henry
I think the essence of democracy is to vote for people who are smarter than us plebes and chavs, preferably people who despise us, and do stuff to us we don't like for our own good.
That is how it is supposed to work.
garage ! Where are you ?
Anybody seen garage ?
BarrySanders20 said...
I think it's great that 324% of our students is learning.
We need to thank the new Uncommon Core math, wherein 100%-9% = 81%.
You just saved 10%!
But with the Old Math - the kind that turned out to be wrong but we're not sure why because of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle - 364% of the students would be is learning.
Then you get 40% more - for free!
It's probably best to use the Old Math because you end up with (40-10)=30 more of those percents when you're all done; in a four-year college that'd be pretty close to 7.5 percents peryear (excluding interest), which is nothing to sniff at.
"She was also an Asian"
Titus, once again you are othering. Being, as you are, highly educated, you know what "othering" means.
Perhaps you have no shame.
A little free advice: affect some.
Would the lefties find Walker acceptable if he showed up with a degree from the University of Southern New Hampshire online program? Sarah Palin attended 5 colleges and universities and that didn't assuage their 'concern'.
A degree granted today is virtually meaningless by traditional standards unless there is clear evidence of actual schooling.
...and I speak as an adjunct professor at a large state university. If you can get your crayon to the paper, you will pass the upper division writing requirement.
- Krumhorn
Come on, Michael! All you have is that lousy medical degree. What would you know about biology?
A little free advice: affect some.
Shhhhh. Titus is one of the sub rosa army of GOP Get Out the Vote operatives only he doesn't know it. I am certain he has no idea what this comment means and therefore considers it complete nonsense. That's fine. Walker needs him to continue to insult Americans in the name of liberal elitism, explain to them how they are shut off from large swaths of the economy based on their political preferences, etc. In fact, if we are lucky we will get a vile and obscene outburst from him to help the cause further.
Actually, There is no need to be careful, Titus is deaf.
For all his hatred of east coast elites, Reynolds must have some serious issues with self-loathing (J.D., Yale 1985)
"For all his hatred of east coast elites, Reynolds must have some serious issues with self-loathing (J.D., Yale 1985)"
They call it "experience" Freder.
"Come on, Michael! All you have is that lousy medical degree. What would you know about biology?"
It's a bit like accountants and numbers, but I do see your point. I am always willing to learn and when I hear of a renowned teacher like garage, I am all ears.
What constitutes "stupid"? IQ or Actions? "Stupid is as stupid does".
Bill Clinton, Rhodes Scholar, doodles and intern and wastes his Presidency...
John Edwards sires love child on campaign trail and engages in cover up w/ Aunt Bunny's money...
John Corzine bilks all MF Global customers off a bad bet...
All of the above highly intelligent, educated intellectuals.
All douchebags.
"If Scott Walker can't answer a question about evolution maybe evolution is debatable. "
Ask a typical Democratic candidate about evolution-driven differences between the sexes in behavioral and cognitive faculties. If you get any answer at all, I'll bet in will not agree with "the science".
And these issues are far more relevant to public policy than, say, mitochondrial evolution.
A college degree only became important after the civil rights movement when employers needed a better excuse not to hire someone they just didn't want to hire. "Sorry, this position requires a degree," which was a good out because so many minorities didn't have one. Then minorities began graduating from clown college and we find ourselves where we are now, up to our eyeballs in college grads who can't find their ass with two hands and a map.
In post-truth America what I say is a thought crime.
Meade, if Titus affected shame he would not be funny, or cute, or whatever it is that makes him a favorite here, anymore.
He's never been a favorite with me.
Much prefer the guy who is Laslo.
And the Ghost of a Gentleman.
And the blogging cockroach (hi professor)
And AMERICA'S POLITICO.
Titus is way down the list.
You basically can't start up a computer without seeing the handiwork of drop outs, PC or MAC. When asked about his lack of degree he should point that out. Then he can say "I wasn't quite as smart as those guys so I wound up in politics instead of PCs."
Freder Frederson said...
For all his hatred of east coast elites, Reynolds must have some serious issues with self-loathing (J.D., Yale 1985)
He's bitter he didn't get tenured position there. If they won't take me I'll burn down the house.
"He's bitter he didn't get tenured position there. If they won't take me I'll burn down the house."
You can't have tenure unless you are on the faculty. ARM was he ever on Yale faculty or is this you passing wind ?
ARM is an expert at petty academic squabbles, and protecting his rice bowl, it would seem.
Glenn Reynolds seems like a pretty happy and successful guy to me, but what do I know? A reasonable man knows that everybody who doesn't agree with him is bitter.
Michael K said...
You can't have tenure unless you are on the faculty.
He's bitter because they wouldn't even give him a crappy tenure track position there. If they won't take me I'll burn down the house.
He's bitter because they wouldn't even give him a crappy tenure track position there. If they won't take me I'll burn down the house.
I take it your insights into human nature are derived from observation of your own motivations.
dont need no stinkin book larnin...
machine: "dont need no stinkin book larnin..."
Uh, garage is not the topic of this thread machine.
Would you care to comment on Walker?
tim in vermont: "A reasonable man knows that everybody who doesn't agree with him is bitter."
A truly "reasonable man" would be confident that his comments and persona would carry the day as to how "reasonable" he is.
Of course, when you are forced to scurry about deleting post after insane post, you're bound to lose some of your Q-sub-r quotient.
Liberals are always projecting their own sociopathology on other people.
With hilarious results.
"He's bitter because they wouldn't even give him a crappy tenure track position there. If they won't take me I'll burn down the house."
So, he applied and was turned down ?
Come on. I'm ready to accept your premise if you can only show it is not bullshit.
Can you ?
Michael K said...
Come on. I'm ready to accept your premise if you can only show it is not bullshit.
He paid good money to go there. He obviously has nothing against the place if it helps advance his career.
ARM wrote He paid good money to go there. He obviously has nothing against the place if it helps advance his career.
In my career as a chemist, I met and was mentored by many products of elite schools. The worst ones always wore it on their sleeve like an armband.
I hope that's not what you are saluting!
I'm not saluting any arm bands. That's more of a right wing thing. I'm a moderate.
ARM replied: I'm not saluting any arm bands. That's more of a right wing thing.
Ever notice that Nazis aways wore those thingies on the left? Just sayin'
---Glenn Reynolds seems like a pretty happy and successful guy to me
He’s got a great wife who’s written conservative books and he occasionally goes to a range and shoots large caliber weapons. He’s read by what, hundreds of thousands?
I trust his disinterested view of east coast incest, narcissism and silly walks any day.
ARM is claiming he's a RINO. Does anyone believe that?
ARM is claiming he's a RINO. Does anyone believe that?
Only in the sense that RINOs are unicorns.
ARM is a lefty extremist. Like all lefty extremists he lies reflexively. Mendacity is his default.
If you laugh at him, he'll slither back under his rotted log.
I'm not saluting any arm bands. That's more of a right wing thing. I'm a moderate.
Now that's funny.
Hey! Turns out that the CIA was buying up stockpiles of Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons which you said they didn't have.
embarrassing huh.
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