Althouse: "No federal charges for Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin death."

February 24, 2015

"No federal charges for Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin death."

"The Justice Department said Tuesday its independent investigation found 'insufficient evidence' to charge George Zimmerman with federal civil rights violations in the shooting death of Florida teen Trayvon Martin."

88 comments:

Revenant said...: Good.; 2/24/15, 5:22 PM
Bill, Republic of Texas said...: Trayvon Martin. Is he still dead?; 2/24/15, 5:31 PM
tim maguire said...: AG Holder is losing his touch.; 2/24/15, 5:35 PM
sane_voter said...: I am surprised they came this this conclusion, although I believe it is the correct one. It would be helpful to this administration to distract from all the ISIS troubles.; 2/24/15, 5:39 PM
sane_voter said...: to reword that last sentence:

A Zimmerman trial would have been helpful to this administration to distract from all the ISIS troubles.; 2/24/15, 5:41 PM
Diogenes of Sinope said...: The Obama regime is 100% about using all crisis’s for political gain. This Zimmerman tragedy is played out and has no more political capital.; 2/24/15, 5:50 PM
traditionalguy said...: I suspect Holder's crew really admired the job that Zimmerman pretty much created on his own escaping all responsibility for shooting the person he was wrong to stalk in the first place and making himself look like a hero for killing Martin. That was one Oscar worthy performance.; 2/24/15, 5:52 PM
Simon said...: If the state couldn't pin anything on him, I can't imagine why the Feds thought they could. Same deal with Ferguson as that lumbers forward. Forget who is actually in the right; just as a matter of practical reality, what do you hope to prove? What's the point?; 2/24/15, 5:55 PM
Big Mike said...: Even if it's a black teenager who assaults you, you are still allowed to defend your life. Glad Holder got around to conceding that point.; 2/24/15, 6:00 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: " . . . escaping all responsibility"
Zimmerman was tried for second degree murder.
You have a funny, eccentric way of defining "escaping all responsibility", traditionalguy.
Liberals hate it when people who have broken no laws don't go to prison. Couldn't Zimmerman just have been found guilty jailed for being a Kulak?; 2/24/15, 6:08 PM
wendybar said...: Self Defense. No evidence otherwise, unfortunately, for Al, Eric and Barack.; 2/24/15, 6:20 PM
Drago said...: Those white hispanics get away with everything!; 2/24/15, 6:23 PM
Unknown said...: unfortunately, for tradguy, too. He's in good company.; 2/24/15, 6:23 PM
Curious George said...: Let's toast with a purple drank.; 2/24/15, 6:30 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: I suspect Holder's crew really admired the job that Zimmerman pretty much created on his own escaping all responsibility for shooting the person he was wrong to stalk in the first place and making himself look like a hero for killing Martin. That was one Oscar worthy performance.

I love how people make stuff up. He wasn't stalking Martin, but was rather trying (unsuccessfully) to tail him for the police. Not that there would have been a legal difference. One of the strongest cases of self defense in awhile that actually went to trial (because the DA handling the case didn't take the case to the grand jury, as is typical, but rather, filed by information). Martin swung on Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground, which was assault, and maybe even aggravated assault. But, then when he beat his head into the pavement, and then tried to strange him, it was potentially attempted murder. Either could have killed him, which is why he most likely had a reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury at the hands of Martin (which are the requisites for self-defense).

Martin had no legal privilege to strike Zimmerman, and, esp. not to beat his head into the concrete, etc. Even if Zimmerman had been stalking him (which he wasn't). Martin initiated the fight, and then escalated it to potentially deadly force. All on his own. He can be as dissed as he wanted to be - that doesn't legally justify anything more than yelling back at someone. He didn't die because he was black, but rather because he picked a potential victim whom he thought was unarmed, but wasn't. He would have done much better if he had stayed in school, gone straight, given up pot and Lean, as well as MMA fighting, and quit trying to be a gangsta wannabe.; 2/24/15, 6:32 PM
Unknown said...: There never were going to be federal charges. It's disgraceful that Holder plays the justice game for political points. That's all that has been going on, like Diogenes said earlier. They've wrung all the juice out of it and now it's on to the next thing.; 2/24/15, 6:56 PM
Hagar said...: CBS Evening News reported tonight that Zimmermann, acting as a neighborhood watch guard confronted Trayvon Martin ...

Two lies in one sentence. Zimmermann was not on guard that night, and he did not "confront" Martin. Trayvon Martin confronted him.

And some wonder why people do not trust the network news?; 2/24/15, 7:00 PM
chickelit said...: I don't think Holder, Sharpton, Obama et al. really thought to seriously prosecute this forward to this point. They got what they wanted out of it which was reelection votes in 2012. They pulled the same stunt in 2014 with Ferguson for the midterms but it backfired.; 2/24/15, 7:10 PM
YoungHegelian said...: So, how long has the decision that there wasn't enough evidence to charge Zimmerman with any federal offenses been sitting in cold storage at the DoJ?

I guess if they had released that information during the Furgeson contretemps it would have damaged the administration's attempts at get-out-the-vote in the minority communities for the off-year elections. Can't let a crisis go to waste now, can we? And the administration also needed to have the black community still think that the DoJ gave a shit about them, which it never did.

Every administration has its degenerate scumbags, and the Obama administration has its fair share. But the scum-baggiest of them all is Eric Holder.; 2/24/15, 7:12 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: Bruce Hayden wrote:
"Martin swung on Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground, which was assault, and maybe even aggravated assault."

Tradionalguy seems to believe that following or confronting a person that you are suspicious of means that person is allowed to beat you to death.; 2/24/15, 7:13 PM
Jason said...: Scratch a liberal - like Traditionalguy - you'll find a fascist. Every. F***ing. Time.; 2/24/15, 7:23 PM
Brando said...: Whatever really happened between those two, there just was never enough evidence to convict, and probably would not have had charges filed in the first place if not for political pressure. Martins parents would have been better off with a wrongful death civil suit against the association that Zimmmerman was working for.; 2/24/15, 7:27 PM
Michael K said...: "making himself look like a hero for killing Martin."

Amazing the mental gymnastics that took. Great job !; 2/24/15, 7:36 PM
Known Unknown said...: as well as MMA fighting

This is actually the one thing that would have kept him alive — giving him an outlet for energy and exercise, keeping him disciplined with a training regimen, and keeping him in a gym rather than out wandering around on rainy nights.; 2/24/15, 7:37 PM
Michael K said...: "but was rather trying (unsuccessfully) to tail him for the police. "

he wasn't even doing that. The dispatcher asked where he was and he was trying to see the address of the condo. He didn't know where Martin was.

I spent a day reading all the material at Conservative Tree House which had the best information.; 2/24/15, 7:38 PM
Michael K said...: "Tradionalguy seems to believe that following or confronting a person that you are suspicious of means that person is allowed to beat you to death."

Zimmerman wasn't even following him. The dispatcher asked where he (Zimm) was and that the cops would find him so he loped at the address.

In the leftist hysteria, it is important to read the facts which have been altered by such luminaries as ABC news which edited the video from the surveillance camera.; 2/24/15, 7:41 PM
RichardJohnson said...: chickelit
I don't think Holder, Sharpton, Obama et al. really thought to seriously prosecute this forward to this point. They got what they wanted out of it which was reelection votes in 2012

Exactly. Fire up the base. Which as you point out, worked in 2012 but not for Ferguson in 2014.; 2/24/15, 7:56 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: I have a hard time seeing the pro-Martin side on this because I am not sure what outcome the pro-Martin types would have liked to see. Zimmerman dead or brain damaged? Why? martin would have been put in prison. Zimmerman punished for "provoking" a suspicious character? Again, why? Zimmerman did nothing illegal to provoke Martin.; 2/24/15, 7:58 PM
Unknown said...: There is a strong intersection between this thread and the photography post that follows, with news reports a proxy for photographs.; 2/24/15, 8:36 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: *vacant stare right into lens* "Eric Holder....doesn't care about black people" *Mike Meyers awkwardly ignoring*; 2/24/15, 8:44 PM
traditionalguy said...: It's amazing how many people insist on defending Zimmerman's tale as if it is reality...but then dead men tell no tales.

Ever wonder why a man hunting a tall hooded figure around in the dark says he had his 40 cal Automatic with him but it was only in his pocket until he got attacked by his prey and was forced to kill it?; 2/24/15, 8:56 PM
William said...: I think Martin was the one who profiled Zimmerman. Zimmerman was a pudgy looking white boy, just begging for a beat down. If Zmmerman had been built along the lines of Hulk Hogan, Martin would have chosen to run home and report his stalker to the police......Whether or not the gun gave Zimmerman a false sense of confidence and whether or not Martin caught his eye because he was black, it was Martin who initiated the physical contact. And that is the reason Martin was shot and killed.......Zimmerman's life is effectively ruined. A lot of hate and malice has been directed at him by a lot of people, including celebrities. It's hard to absorb all that and then go on to live your life. Plus, the world is filled with psychos, and he always has to be look g over his shoulder. Zimmerman was not the big loser in that confrontation, but I would hesitate to describe him as the winner.; 2/24/15, 9:23 PM
Beldar said...: Cue Emily Litella: "Never mind."; 2/24/15, 9:34 PM
Big Mike said...: Ever wonder why a man hunting a tall hooded figure around in the dark says he had his 40 cal Automatic with him but it was only in his pocket until he got attacked by his prey and was forced to kill it?

@tradguy, you got nearly every detail of the incident wrong. That has to be some sort of record, even for you.

Zimmerman initially noticed Martin because it was raining (you could look up the weather records, as I did) and he claims that he saw Martin standing on a lawn (not a sidewalk) in the rain and apparently peering into a house. This is significant because homes in that area had been burglarized (you could look that up, too).

Note that this does not establish that Trayvon Martin was the burglar in the previous incidents. It merely establishes a good reason for Zimmerman to be suspicious of him.

Zimmerman erred in leaving his car, but after all it was the housing development where he lived. If someone told me I couldn't leave my car in my own housing development I'd tell them to eff off right quickly.

It is not true that Zimmerman was asked, ordered, or advised to stay in his car. Only after the dispatcher realized Zimmerman was out of the car did he suggest -- not order -- that Zimmerman not follow the suspect. The exact words were "we don't need you to go there." (You could look that up, as well.)

At this point, according to the available testimony, Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin and was returning to his car. Martin then decided to accost Zimmerman, and began to assault him. The assault escalated from a punch to Zimmerman being knocked to the ground, having his head pounded against concrete, and receiving punches he was helpless to block or to return. We have Zimmerman's injuries and eyewitness testimony to confirm this.

Injured and unable to otherwise defend himself, Zimmerman then drew his handgun from his concealed holster -- a KelTec 9 mm, not a .40 -- and shot Martin once in the chest. It was enough.

It is beyond doubt that Martin threw the first punch. He had been on the phone with his girl friend, and he told her that he intended to do so. However under Florida law it does not matter who threw the first punch. The sole issue is whether Zimmerman was in fear of suffering grave bodily injury or losing his life.

The case was open and shut, and on July 13th, 2013, it was shut.; 2/24/15, 9:40 PM
Paul said...: 'insufficient evidence' is a DOJ dog whistle that they will secretly keep digging for any dirt.; 2/24/15, 9:45 PM
SteveR said...: Holder, Obama, and Sharpton don't even need to say a word to each other to put the act in motion. Others dutifully play their parts to the end, like Trad Guy, still barking after the play is over, thinking it was real and that they were the ones who knew the truth.; 2/24/15, 9:51 PM
ken in tx said...: I am glad to learn that Zimmerman is not a ham sandwich.; 2/24/15, 9:52 PM
Revenant said...: It's amazing how many people insist on defending Zimmerman's tale as if it is reality...but then dead men tell no tales

Yet mysteriously you have access to evidence that no living witness could provide.

Or you like making shit up. I know which possibility I'm betting on.; 2/24/15, 9:54 PM
Michael K said...: "t's amazing how many people insist on defending Zimmerman's tale as if it is reality.."

Nice to know what you are. It's amusing how the left always self identifies. It's almost as though you can't help it.; 2/24/15, 10:14 PM
walter said...: Due to time constraints, NBC is taking the liberty of editing "insufficient evidence" to "evidence"; 2/24/15, 10:19 PM
traditionalguy said...: It's been fun pulling your chains on Zimmerman's very unlikely tale. I said it was a great work of dramatic art.

But why do you believe him? It's all his story.

But then watching how quick you are to condemn me as a facist and liberal proves that you have little discernment at all.

Lawyers learn that many people lie and lie very well. We take in depth courses at decerning lies from facial expressions and body language, such as Susan Constantine's. Look her up.; 2/24/15, 10:34 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: I think traditionalguy has been spending too much time on Lefty blogs and websites. One of the things they do at those places is ladle on deceptive adjectives. They will repeat, for example, over and over that Zimmerman "stalked" Martin, when the less emotional, less colored word "followed" should be used by those interested in truthful journalism.
Somebody reads enough of that bullshit and eventually they believe that using the using word "stalked" is appropriate.; 2/24/15, 10:48 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: "We take in depth courses at decerning lies from facial expressions and body language"

Do you ever feel the urge to roll large ball bearings around in your hand, Traditionalguy? I hear that it can be very soothing.; 2/24/15, 10:50 PM
Beorn said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 2/24/15, 11:02 PM
Beorn said...: @Big Mike
...you could look that up...

Facts are becoming a quaint notion in America; the (leftist) narrative trumps all, because the "science" is settled.; 2/24/15, 11:04 PM
Michael K said...: "But why do you believe him? It's all his story."

Evidence ? Video ? Police radio ?

Yes, you are an idiot.

Have some more purple drank.; 2/24/15, 11:09 PM
Michael K said...: "We take in depth courses at decerning lies from facial expressions and body language, such as Susan Constantine's. Look her up."

Oh God ! A lawyer and a left wing one at that !

Why aren't you in Texas defending the guy who killed Chris Kyle ?; 2/24/15, 11:10 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Trad is just sounding silly now. The evidence against Zimmerman at trial was essentially that Martin's parents believed that the voice calling for help was their son's. Almost nothing more. Not enough for a preponderance against Zimmerman, and clearly nowhere near enough for beyond a reasonable doubt. Indeed, the joke with those watching the case closely was that the prosecution had proven him innocent beyond a reasonable doubt (just the opposite of what they needed) by the time that they rested their case. The defense, of course, moved for a directed verdict (or whatever it is called in FL criminal courts), but that was not necessary, since the jury came back with the only verdict that they could, given the evidence, which was overwhelmingly in favor of Zimmerman's innocence.

If you want to discuss the details of the trial - be my guest. I suspect that I, as well as many others here, know the specifics far better than you do - as evidenced by your continued reliance on ad hominum, attacks, instead of with the facts at trial (which didn't paint the full picture of Martins, since the judge suppressed most of his social media posts, where he talked about pot, lean, his prowess in MMA style fighting, hitting a bus driver, etc., as well as showcasing an illegal firearm).; 2/24/15, 11:19 PM
cubanbob said...: traditionalguy said...
It's amazing how many people insist on defending Zimmerman's tale as if it is reality...but then dead men tell no tales.

Ever wonder why a man hunting a tall hooded figure around in the dark says he had his 40 cal Automatic with him but it was only in his pocket until he got attacked by his prey and was forced to kill it?

2/24/15, 8:56 PM"

The forensics of this dead piece of shit did tell tales. So what was that hooded POS stalking other people's property and wailing on some guy do to deserve such misplaced sympathy? Zimmerman did society a favor when in saving his life flushed this turd down the toilet.; 2/24/15, 11:22 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Let me go a bit further about the trial. The thing that was weird about it is that almost all of the prosecution's witnesses seemed more like defense witnesses in their testimony. It was almost like the guy who shoots and scores into the wrong basket, or runs across into the wrong end zone. Even Martin's "girlfriend" turned out to hurt their case, when she testified about talking to him right before he (apparently) went back to attack Zimmerman. Something about beating up the "ass cracker" who had followed him. Or, something like that. Maybe a little homophobia there (not surprising for a 17 year old). Of course, that was suppressed in the MSM, since good progressives would have a hard time reconciling a young black homophobic victim going back to beat up the homo whom he apparently (maybe - since we will never know) thought was tailing him.

One other thing - as noted above, Zimmerman first became suspicious of Martin because he was walking around on someone's front lawn, in the rain, trying to look into their windows. There had been burglaries in the neighborhood, including, I believe close neighbors of that house. Zimmerman knew that because of a police briefing of the Neighborhood Watch (that Zimmerman worked for). Those perps had been caught (and, yes, they were apparently black). Notably though, despite that, Zimmerman originally didn't tell the dispatcher the color/race of the suspicious person he had called about, and only gave that information when requested.

Which gets to my last point (at least for now). The feds could only arrest Zimmerman for depriving Martin of his civil rights. Murder, per se, is insufficient. That essentially means that they would have had to prove that the killing had been due to racial animus. Obviously, the same self-defense defense would have been applicable, and most likely persuasive. But, beyond that, there were no other indications of racial animus on the part of Zimmerman whatsoever, prior to the fateful night. He does have some black blood himself, has blacks in his family, and blacks testified in his favor at trial. Even if self-defense hadn't worked, they still weren't going to be able to prove that the reason that he killed Martin was racial animus (esp. since Zimmerman had defensive, not offensive, wounds, and Martin had offensive, not defensive, wounds (excluding the fatal gunshot)). Just wasn't going to happen. Which is why we know that keeping the case open as long as they did was purely political.; 2/24/15, 11:39 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Oh - and I forgot - the only evidence of apparent racial animus was the doctored tape of Zimmerman's NEN call, where the critical part of where the dispatcher had to ask him about the race of the suspicious person was conveniently excised out, making it sound like he was suspicious because the guy was black, instead of the exact opposite. Even, maybe more egregious journalistic malfeasance than Candy Crowly interfering in that Presidential debate in order to save her candidate.; 2/24/15, 11:44 PM
Skeptical Voter said...: Ah the Obama Administration narrative--a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. With apologies to the Bard of Avon; 2/25/15, 12:03 AM
The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...: And Zimmerman used a 9mm, not a fo-tay.; 2/25/15, 12:07 AM
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Anonymous said...: Flashback:

traditionalguy said...

The symbol of equality in Atlanta after MLK was the taboo made of the N---er word. That word was a slur meaning uneducated and unclean , and it's use became a sign of uneducated whites.

But to this day Texans, who do the same thing to the Hispanics, distinguish their State from Georgia by referring to Atlanta as N---er Town.

10/3/11, 12:06 PM; 2/25/15, 5:42 AM
Jaq said...: There is also "insufficient evidence" that I killed JFK.; 2/25/15, 5:44 AM
Jaq said...: As far as I know, following somebody for a couple of minutes is not "stalking" and is perfectly legal. You can take pictures of people, all kinds of things in a free country.; 2/25/15, 5:47 AM
Jaq said...: One of the things that made me question liberalism when I was in my early twenties was that we were supposed to hate Texans. I lived in Colorado and met a lot of Texans and one day I realized I had never met a Texan I didn't like.

Never met a racist Texan either, to my knowledge.

But traditional guy continues his campaign of othering the non-left.; 2/25/15, 5:51 AM
Unknown said...: TraditionalGuy, if you're a lawyer, you should know that there isn't a "stalking" statute in America that applies to a single encounter of less than 30 minutes between two strangers. D.GOOCH; 2/25/15, 5:58 AM
Phil 314 said...: But in the most important court, the court of public opinion, Mr. Zimmerman has lost.

He will NEVER be on "Celebrity Apprentice" or "Dancing with the Stars".; 2/25/15, 6:31 AM
Brando said...: People--at least let's agree to what we don't know for certain about that incident. We do know that Zimmerman spotted Martin and was suspicious of him, and that Martin spotted Zimmerman and was likewise suspicious of him. We also know that the fight ended with Martin beating Zimmerman and Zimmerman shooting Martin.

What we don't know is exactly how it went from the two spotting each other to the fatal end of hte fight. Did Zimmerman touch Martin first, or did Martin touch Zimmerman first? Was first contact an arm grab that escalated between two men fearful of each other, or did one just start beating the other, out of fear or otherwise? What words were exchanged that led to the physical contact?

We don't know--and the "Martin deserved it" crowd don't konw this any more than the "Zimmerman should fry" crowd. It's the lack of certainty which requires Zimmerman to go free.; 2/25/15, 6:47 AM
sparrow said...: These prosecutions always push double jeopardy to the limit.; 2/25/15, 7:05 AM
Bruce Hayden said...: I think that part of what bothers me about Trad and his ilk, is that I don't think that they have thought through the ramifications of their positions. Do we want to live in a society that condones Martin's felonious attack on Zimmerman, or Big Mike Brown's violent attack on Darren Wilson, because they are troubled black young adults? Can we afford a double standard, where those in civilized society act in a certain way, and the rest of society, the violent part, are allowed to violently attack the rest? All because of their skin color? And, typically being raised without their fathers?

I see the culture clash between the lawless inner city youth, and esp. their young black males, and the rest of us in this case, as well as the Ferguson case, where so many came forward at the behest of Brown's accomplice, to give demonstrably false testimony (and, yes, that is a sign that they aren't that worldly, that they didn't realize that the cops would check their stories with everything else, before believing them). I see Martin as being transferred from an urban poorer black community into a mixed race (lower?) middle class one, where certain standards are set and enforced. He was suspicious, and remarked upon for that reason. In the hood, he probably could have beat up, and maybe even killed, Zimmerman, with impunity. No one was going to talk to the police. But, Zimmerman was on the phone with the police when they first interacted, and the police were on their way to the scene at the time of the shooting. Zimmerman was acting like middle class people do, and Martin like young inner city blacks do.

Which is my point here - that we really cannot afford multiculteralism, where all cultures are treated as equivalent. That means accepting that jihadist Muslims are given a pass when they kill Jews and Christians in esp. brutal ways, and inner city youths are allowed to engage in violent criminal behavior against the rest of us, with impunity. The murder rate among those in the inner city poor in this country, and esp. the blacks living there, is many times that of the rest of us, and is that way for a lot of reasons, one of the big ones being that this sort of violent behavior is allowed. Sometimes even condoned and glorified. Our murder rate for the rest of the country is on par with the best of the rest of the world (despite being one of the most heavily armed in the world). My worry is that the line that has been drawn, with the laws that are on the books, isn't enforced when it comes to those less privileged, that there will be a race to the bottom. I don't think that most of us want to live in a culture where jihadists can behead for not being strict Muslim, and gangstas can kill for being dissed.

And, yet, that is essentially what the left, exemplified by Trad Guy here, seem to wish for. A lawless society where might makes right, and sufficient perceived victimhood is exoneration for violence against and murder of the rest of us.; 2/25/15, 7:21 AM
walter said...: But..#black lives matter! White Hispanics..not so much.; 2/25/15, 7:41 AM
garage mahal said...: Too bad. This thug needs to make the rounds inside a prison.; 2/25/15, 8:04 AM
SGT Ted said...: My take on it is that Trayvon was committing a homophobic hate crime against what he thought was a fabulous white guy.

ok not really, but, since tradguy is making shit up based on out of context, politically convenient speculation, I thought I'd give it a whirl.

How'd I do?; 2/25/15, 8:06 AM
SGT Ted said...: I love it how lefties reveal themselves as wanting not guilty people to be put in prison when they don't like them.; 2/25/15, 8:07 AM
Hagar said...: Actually, the way race is traditionally counted in this country, George Zimmermann is a "Black" Hispanic.; 2/25/15, 8:08 AM
Laura said...: Such is the allure of Skittles that they must be purchased and consumed post haste under cover of darkness.; 2/25/15, 8:57 AM
damikesc said...: And ABC tweets a photo of 12 year old Trayvon. Because he didn't age in 5 years.

I suspect Holder's crew really admired the job that Zimmerman pretty much created on his own escaping all responsibility for shooting the person he was wrong to stalk in the first place and making himself look like a hero for killing Martin.

So, he should just let Martin try to kill him on the road because...racism or something?

It's amazing how many people insist on defending Zimmerman's tale as if it is reality...but then dead men tell no tales.

There was a criminal trial. If we just won't accept the results of a trial, then why do we have a legal system?

Ever wonder why a man hunting a tall hooded figure around in the dark says he had his 40 cal Automatic with him but it was only in his pocket until he got attacked by his prey and was forced to kill it?

Any idea why a punk kid would ambush a dude and attempt to murder him in the middle of the road?

But why do you believe him? It's all his story.

...that was harshly attacked in a court of law and still found to be accurate...

Lawyers learn that many people lie and lie very well.

No doubt. You'd think the prosecutors would've attacked that possibility at the trial...

Too bad. This thug needs to make the rounds inside a prison.

True. But Trayvon didn't survive his ambush, so he missed out on it.

Tragic.; 2/25/15, 8:59 AM
Laura said...: Good thing young Mr. Martin was wearing his see-through hoodie so Mr. Zimmerman could easily be accused of profiling.; 2/25/15, 9:00 AM
jr565 said...: Traditional guy wrote:
I suspect Holder's crew really admired the job that Zimmerman pretty much created on his own escaping all responsibility for shooting the person he was wrong to stalk in the first place and making himself look like a hero for killing Martin. That was one Oscar worthy performance.

Clearly we are operating under a different assumption of what the word stalk means. Because what zimmerman did was not that. You can literally listen to the conversation where he "stalks" trayvon and the "stalking lasts all of five seconds. Not only wasnt it a stalking it was barely a following. Some stalking. and in the conversation he loses sight of trayvon and doesn't continue stalking him. Rather he has a conversation with the dispatcher about how the cop should get there.
Sayin stalking to describe the interaction suggests you've drunken the kool aid.; 2/25/15, 11:33 AM
jr565 said...: Trayvon Martin ran away towards his fathers girl friends house. HE was on the phone with his friend/girflfried and they had a whole conversation before the alteraction. He was either directly behind his dads house or close to it.And Zimmerman didn't follow him there. Or, "stalk him" there.
So then how does he go back to the crime scene but to fight Zimmerman? Can the defenders think of another reason? If he was so scared for his life, and was essentially safe, why go back. unless you want to confront Zimmerman.

Which is totally in keeping with Zimmerman's tale. If instead Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, the fight would have taken place behind his dads house.
But it didn't.
Ergo, Trayvon went back to whup some ass. And his friend all but said as much. For some reason he thought Zimmerman was a gay molester or something,and was worried for his brother. (you want to talk about people jumping to conclusions). And so went back to fight Zimmerman.; 2/25/15, 11:46 AM
jr565 said...: traditional guy wrote:
Ever wonder why a man hunting a tall hooded figure around in the dark says he had his 40 cal Automatic with him but it was only in his pocket until he got attacked by his prey and was forced to kill it?

You're escalating from stalking to hunting, now? Really, nothing you say is worth listening to on this subject.; 2/25/15, 11:50 AM
jr565 said...: Big Mike makes a lot of good points.
I'll expound on them.
There was nothing wrong with Zimmerman viewing Trayvon suspiciously. Lets not forget that this is a gated community. And that Trayvon did not live there. He was only visiting.
And lets also not forget that , as Big Mike said, there was a rash of robberies recently.
So, we have a guy wandering aimlessly after dark who doesn't live there and is a stranger to most people there who is ducking between buildings and looking thorugh the windows.
There may be an innocent explanation for everything, but it's not illogical for Zimmerman to assume he might be up to no good.

In our building we have a sign up that says "don't buzz people in unless you know who they are" BECASUE people had buzzed someone's buzzer, was buzzed in, and then wandered around the building. We had a homeless guy do it once, and we had someone rob an apartment once. If I was the guy seeing someone who looked like a stranger in the building I'd at least ask who he was or who he was tyring to see. It's not racism, it's simply common sense.
If you are the neighborhood watch you have to account for people who don't belong there.

Trayvon's issue appears to be he assumed that he owned the place simply because he was visiting. It never occurred to him that if he's in a gated community someone seeing him wander around after hours might at least illicit some degree of perfectly legitimate suspicion.
And what was TRayvons' response when he sees Zimmerman watching him from the car. First he walks towards him with his hand in his belt like he has a weapon. And then he takes off running. Neither of which would make most people less suspicious.
His family could have spared him death if they simply announced to the community and the neighborhood watch that his son was visiting and here's what he looked like. and explained to trayvon there was in fact a neighborhood watch. OR if Trayvon didn't act like a criminal when he saw Zimmerman looking at him. Instead of running why not go up and introduce yourself.; 2/25/15, 12:01 PM
jr565 said...: Hagar wrote:
Actually, the way race is traditionally counted in this country, George Zimmermann is a "Black" Hispanic.

if we listened to Halle Berry and applied the one drop rule, he'd be black. Has a black grandmother.; 2/25/15, 1:55 PM
jr565 said...: Melissa Harris Perry MSNBC host gave a commeratation speech at Cornell where she said:
“I hope he tried to stay alive,” speaking of Trayvon. “I hope he knew that he lived a state with a ’stand your ground’ law.” “And I hope he whooped the shit out of George Zimmerman,”

Well that's what he tried to do, and that's why he was shot dead. Maybe, don't attack someone and try to kill them, or whoop their ass, and maybe they wont in turn shoot you.; 2/25/15, 2:03 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: JR565 - a couple of notes.

My understanding is that Zimmerman's handgun was a 9mm, not .40 S&W. And, I don't remember it being that late.

Still, Martin was acting suspiciously. Which gets back to my culture difference I mentioned above. He was now operating in a middle class environment, where the police are believed to be on their side, and so call the cops when they see something suspicious. I suspect that this isn't the case in the neighborhood where Martin grew up - it isn't the case in many lower income minority neighborhoods. Neighborhood Watch is a middle class thing, where the people in the neighborhood look out for each other. Martin may not have realized when (probably) seeing NW signs that such indicates overly nosy neighbors, esp. when it comes to people who don't live there. NW is essentially designed to detect people like (probably) Martin - crooks getting ready to commit crimes before they happen. It is a part of suburban middle class life that he was probably not aware of. And, may have been more cautious if he had been.; 2/25/15, 2:06 PM
jr565 said...: From Rachel Jaentel on Piers MOrgans show:

In an interview with CNN’s Piers Morgan, Jeantel insisted that Zimmerman and the jury didn’t have the cultural awareness to understand that Martin wasn’t giving the defendant a “bashing” but merely a “whoop-a–,” Breitbart News noted.

Jeantel, who was on the phone with Martin shortly before he was shot by Zimmerman Feb. 26, 2012, explained: “They don’t understand, they understand, ‘Oh, he would just bash, or was kill.’ When somebody bash somebody, like, blood, people, trust me, in the area I live, that’s not bashing. That’s just called “whoop-ass.” You just got your ass whooped. That’s what it is.’

See, it wasn't a bashing, it was just a whoop ass. George should have understood the difference. IF it were a bash, THEN maybe defending yourself is warranted, but a whoop ass just means you got your ass whooped. Well, yes, that was George's defense. He sucker punched me and started whooping my ass. Thanks Rachel or backing up the defense.

Also Trayvon considered George to be a creep ass cracka, gay molester! Based on a 20 second intereaction where he saw George looking at him then get out of the car and chase (momentarily).

MORGAN: You felt that there was no doubt in your mind from what Trayvon was telling you on the phone about the creepy ass cracka and so on, that he absolutely believed that George Zimmerman, this man, you didn’t know who he was at the time, but this man, was pursuing him?

JEANTEL: Yes.

MORGAN: And he was freaked out by it?

JEANTEL: Yes. Definitely after I say may be a rapist, for every boy, for every man, every — who’s not that kind of way, seeing a grown man following them, would they be creep out?

“And people need to understand, he didn’t want that creepy ass cracker going to his father or girlfriend’s house to go get — mind you, his little brother was there. You know — now, mind you, I told you — I told Trayvon it might have been a rapist.”

We have the recording of the tape. He only pursued him for a short moment just to see where he was going. And lost him pretty quickly. However, the jump from that to "George Zimmerman is a cracka, gay rapist out to molest him and his little brother" is a bit more extreme than thinking a guy in a hoodie who isn't known might be a burglar.

And it also shows how Trayvon went BACK to fight George. He wanted to put a whoop ass on the gay cracka who might molest his kid brother.

Thanks Rachel.
That's from the mouth of the prosecutors witness. How does that not buttress GEorge's case?; 2/25/15, 2:12 PM
jr565 said...: Bruce Hayden wrote:
. Martin may not have realized when (probably) seeing NW signs that such indicates overly nosy neighbors, esp. when it comes to people who don't live there. NW is essentially designed to detect people like (probably) Martin - crooks getting ready to commit crimes before they happen. It is a part of suburban middle class life that he was probably not aware of. And, may have been more cautious if he had been.

I agree. Think about how much trouble could have been avoided if the father introduced Trayvon to the neighborhood watch. or told them that his son would be visiting. OR told trayvon, "By the way, we have a neighborhood watch so, if they don't know who you are go up to them and say you're staying at our house, so they don't think you're an intruder or something".
Trayvon was a fish out of water, but no one told him the rules. That's on them.; 2/25/15, 2:15 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: The part about the Stand Your Ground law is complete hogwash on her part. It is only relevant, per se, when a party claiming self-defense (e.g. Zimmerman) had an opportunity to escape. It is irrelevant when they don't - which Zimmerman did not, after being knocked to the ground, and then straddled by Martin, as he repeatedly struck him MMA style, as he first beat his head into the concrete, and then tried to strangle him (which are the two things that justified the use of deadly force in self-defense).

The other part of SYD that is Florida specific is that the same law that repealed the retreat doctrine (i.e. SYD), also enacted both civil and criminal immunity if the accused can proved, beyond a preponderance of the evidence, that the killing was in self-defense. Note that this is a much higher standard than that at trial, where the prosecution has to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. But, it requires a separate hearing, and the Zimmerman team never requested one (possibly because that would give away defense strategies for the trial). But, that may be why there have not been any wrongful death suits filed against Zimmerman by Martin's family, because there is nothing in that law that prevents such a hearing after being acquitted in a jury trial. But, and I repeat this, this isn't Stand Your Ground, but rather civil and criminal immunity (and award of attorneys' fees).

Why is the Retreat Doctrine bad (and SYD good)? Because it allows the prosecution to spend months to find avenues of escape that were not immediately visible to the person claiming self-defense in the seconds they typically had to react to the threat. Which is why a distinct majority of the states have abolished it.; 2/25/15, 2:18 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Never was quite sure about the homophobia. Cracker is a term used in the south for some types of rednecks. But an "ass cracker" seems to mean that someone is a male homosexual. Still, she seems to be saying that Martin going back to whoop ass on Zimmerman was homophobic.

We seem to be in agreement here that Martin was out of his element, and that may have been part of what got him killed. I think that it is naive to think that the rest of society should understand the difference between whoop ass and killing in her and Martin's mind. He was operating on Zimmerman's turf, not he on theirs, and should have been operating under middle class rules, not ghetto rules - which means that it was still a felonious assault, and likely would have meant jail, or even prison, time if he had survived the night. That was for just knocking Zimmerman down to the ground. The hitting his head into the concrete and choking escalated it to aggravated assault, if not attempted murder. And, I suspect that he would have been caught - the police were only minutes away when he was shot, they knew that the suspect was thin, black, and wearing a hoody, and there just weren't that many fitting that description in the neighborhood.; 2/25/15, 2:30 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: Think about how much trouble could have been avoided if the father introduced Trayvon to the neighborhood watch. or told them that his son would be visiting. OR told trayvon, "By the way, we have a neighborhood watch so, if they don't know who you are go up to them and say you're staying at our house, so they don't think you're an intruder or something".

But, that is a middle class thing. Which is probably why they didn't do it.; 2/25/15, 2:33 PM
jr565 said...: Except the girlfriend If the father lived there so had to be at least rich enough to afford living there. And was probably aware there was a neighborhood watch. She might have even known George personally or at least by site.; 2/25/15, 2:40 PM
Fen said...: traditionalguy: It's been fun pulling your chains on Zimmerman's very unlikely tale.

Yah sure. My lady doth protest too much. You've finally come to realize that you swallowed a bs narrative re this case, and now you are fronting to deny admitting it publicly.

Considering the level of abuse you heaped on those here who disagreed with you and are now proven right all along... you should have enough shame to sit down and stfu.

Instead, we get to watch you pretzel-logic your way out of your disgrace and destroy what's left of your credibility.

Thank you for the entertainment. Your tears are delicious.; 2/25/15, 7:44 PM
Bad Lieutenant said...: Tradguy, I had written at far greater length on this but it was lost. Briefly, then, this is a strange hill to die on. You seem more certain of his guilt than Eric Holder. And on no better evidence. One could reach with speculation into your own history of race relations, as you have done, but I prefer not to. I would just see you off with an admonition to try to see yourself from the outside, and with this exchange from Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon:

"Don't you guys know banzai charges never work?!"

"Everyone who learned that died in banzai charges."; 2/25/15, 7:47 PM
Drago said...: garage mahal: "Too bad. This thug needs to make the rounds inside a prison."

Yes, it is too bad. We'll just have to console ourselves with the knowledge that this thug was killed in the commission of an assault.; 2/25/15, 7:59 PM
Bad Lieutenant said...: Oh, and it was a .380 not a 9mm.; 2/26/15, 7:19 AM