Althouse: "Who's winning GOP Cuba policy smackdown?"

December 20, 2014

"Who's winning GOP Cuba policy smackdown?"

"Marco Rubio vs. Rand Paul."

96 comments:

David said...: Obama is winning.; 12/20/14, 9:36 AM
RecChief said...: Trick question, it's Obama and the baby boomer policy checklist, if we're down to saving (economically) Cuba from itself, reversing our win in the Cold War, multiculturalism, and so on, what is left?; 12/20/14, 9:36 AM
MisterBuddwing said...: Isn't this the cue for someone to say, "Pass the popcorn"?

Oh, right, that's only for when Democrats publicly get into it.; 12/20/14, 9:38 AM
traditionalguy said...: Rubio is making Rand look pathetic. And I had admired Rand's strategery on other issues.

It is realists v. realist and the one in Florida just won on Florida issues. Rand had better stick to coal in Kentucky and eye surgery.; 12/20/14, 9:38 AM
chickelit said...: David wins the thread in the first comment.; 12/20/14, 9:39 AM
Elliott A said...: I have to admit that the viewpoint Rand Paul has is the most logical. 55 years of the current policy has produced no results. If there was an influx of American travelers and their influence, a baseball agreement where Cuban players would not have to defect to play here, and a loss of our antagonistic attitude, the Cuban people would eventually scream for reform. It worked with the Soviets, maybe it would work here. Also, there is very little danger from Cuba, so the risk may be worth it.; 12/20/14, 9:39 AM
chickelit said...: @Elliott: Lots of subjunctive analysis and hypothetical construction there.; 12/20/14, 9:40 AM
Elliott A said...: Rand Paul's attraction is that he hasn't fallen into the trap of "groupthink" that many in the entire political and spectrum have succumbed to.; 12/20/14, 9:42 AM
chickelit said...: Listen to the link Chip Ahoy posted at Lem's.

Does Rand Paul have a retort?; 12/20/14, 9:42 AM
Elliott A said...: political and social spectrum; 12/20/14, 9:42 AM
iowan2 said...: Question seem alot like racehorse journalism. Who's ahead?? Vs Whats the debate.

How about are the people of Cuba gaining?

To that question, a flat no, is in order.

Every thing that Obama and Paul say are positives, ignore the fact that Cuba lacks nothing from the outside world. All is availible. Castro(s) have denied it all to the Cuban people.
The whole point is Obama refused to negotiated for the good of the Cuban people. Castro has not lifted any restrictions on the Cuban People. Can they now Travel? Can they Get passports? Open Businesses? Form political parties?

No.

Obama negotiated for his personal place in history and used the Cuban people as pawns to stroke his own massive, ego.; 12/20/14, 9:45 AM
chickelit said...: Missing the J Farmer analysis of how US Agribusiness needs to prop up the Cuban military.; 12/20/14, 9:48 AM
iowan2 said...: @elliot

Baseball players? That the best you got?
Fine.....Obama could have negotiated that. He didn't. All he did was trade criminals we had in prison here, for spies Cuba had in prison there.

He could have added more.....he didn't.

He didn't do much of anything but dump a flaming bag of poo on the front porch and go incummunicado to Hawaii till January.; 12/20/14, 9:55 AM
traditionalguy said...: So 55 years of current policy only had 35 years of much needed results. We crippled instead of supported a Soviet World Communist base 70 miles off shore.

The last 20 years we sent the message that Communist Revolutions are considered our enemy. Obama reversed that of course. They are his BFF.

That move was like Obama's move to dump our best ally in the middle east and open the way for the Muslim Brotherhood take over in Egypt.
The same guy pushed that disaster as negotiated the Cuban capitulation for Obama.; 12/20/14, 10:00 AM
Humperdink said...: Quote of the day (admittedly it's early): "It was a good week to be a dictator." Eric Bolling; 12/20/14, 10:02 AM
MayBee said...: the Cuban people would eventually scream for reform. It worked with the Soviets, maybe it would work here. Also, there is very little danger from Cuba, so the risk may be worth it.

This also worked really well with the Iranians and the Syrians.

Do you think the Cubans just don't like the Europeans that go there? Too.....Europeanish?; 12/20/14, 10:03 AM
Tank said...: Like other places in the world, it's not our job to "fix" Cuba. What is the important US interest there? It is that Cuba not be used by the Russians or Chinese to spy on us or attack us, and that Cuba not be exporting terrorism or support for terrorists.

While I don't oppose "normalization," Rubio is right that the Zero is the worst negotiator ever. Or maybe he does it on purpose?; 12/20/14, 10:04 AM
Anonymous said...: It will NOT matter.

The winner is POTUS Obama, for the policy.

The beneficiary is HRC - the next POTUS.

Who said this?

NYT. NPR. PBS. MSNBC. TPM. Daily Dish. Etc. Etc.

It is over for GOP to use Cuba.; 12/20/14, 10:06 AM
Jason said...: Castro won.

And peel away that thin veneer, and Rand's a crackpot, like his dad.

Don't think what you see is what you get with Rand Paul. It's not.

If there was an influx of American travelers and their influence, a baseball agreement where Cuban players would not have to defect to play here, and a loss of our antagonistic attitude, the Cuban people would eventually scream for reform.

Cuba is an island prison. It's not like Venezuela or Nicaragua, who bother to keep a pretense of democracy in place. Cuba is more like Cold War Poland or a Diet North Korea with better weather.

Its people have no right to scream for reform. That gets you thrown in jail, your kneecaps broken, and your family's meat ration cut.; 12/20/14, 10:10 AM
Humperdink said...: AP, the inclusion MSNBC in your list sold me.; 12/20/14, 10:10 AM
MayBee said...: Really. 20 years or so ago I could have excused people who thought simply being exposed to the West and America would bring about democratization for countries

But the backslide of the entire Middle East should by now remove that delusion from your heads.; 12/20/14, 10:24 AM
MayBee said...: Not to mention Mexico.; 12/20/14, 10:25 AM
cubanbob said...: If Obama wanted to bail the Castro brothers out and help the US in the process he could have been a bit more creative. He could have made a deal to ship out all illegal aliens in US prisons to Cuba and pay Cuba $10,000 per prisoner per year for the full duration of their prison term along with the airfare to send them back to wherever they came from after the completion of sentence. That would be a win-win.; 12/20/14, 10:25 AM
Hagar said...: The Castros.
Should have waited until Raul dies or is removed by other means.; 12/20/14, 10:30 AM
jr565 said...: Castro is winning. Obama is winning. Michael Moore is winning. Communism is winning.; 12/20/14, 10:43 AM
iowan2 said...: I can't fathom the absence from any news coverage of Obama's hit and run diplomacy, exactly what affirmative improvements to the lives of Cuban's did Obama assure? What?

Just like the Bergdahl fiasco. Obama has no concept of how to negotiated for the betterment of the US. He should have, but is either blindly self centered or inept.; 12/20/14, 10:45 AM
khesanh0802 said...: Paul vs Rubio results from a slow news week. I think the point that many have made that Obama/Kerry is a terrible negotiator is the important one and probably the one that will take hold as the actual results become apparent. Look at Iran for an example.; 12/20/14, 10:51 AM
jr565 said...: Rand Paul has always been an isolationist who thinks trade solves everything and would trade with iran rather than accept we met hold them accountable. So how is this anythibg but a restatement if his Already stated policy. It was dumb when his daddy said it and it's just as dumb when he says it.
If Cuba was open Marco Rubio would have no problem lifting the embargo. It's the regime though this requires keeping it in place. And so you have to look at the deal and see what do we get versus what Cuba gets. the castrisnun fact get a lifeline to continue their regime when we in fact have an opportunity here to weaken the regime enough so that we can get real trade and real humanitarian concessions.
Now though we pump dollars into Castro's Cuba. Since they control business there we are fundibg more Castroism. Which is why we had the embargo in the first place.
Rands policy is ultimately no different Han the lefts. If I wanted that I'd vote for Obama or communism.; 12/20/14, 10:51 AM
jr565 said...: Obama and now Rand Paul think the winning move is to give our enemies more power. And I suppose rather than deal With North Koreas hacks of Sony or China's stealing of our intellectual property, Rand Paul thinks we should TRADE with them.; 12/20/14, 10:55 AM
Tank said...: Incidentally, I think, overall, that Paul and Rubio are two of the good guys. They don't have to agree on every issue. We'd be a hell of a lot better off with a Congress full of Rubios and Pauls. Way better.; 12/20/14, 11:01 AM
jr565 said...: based on the interview with Mark Levin, it's quite clear that one person knows what he's talking about and the other is arguing from half bake libertarian ideology.
I'll take the guy speaking with Mark Levin over the crackpot, thanks.; 12/20/14, 11:09 AM
Michael K said...: "Rand Paul has always been an isolationist who thinks trade solves everything"

I think Paul, like most Libertarians with a big L, thinks that everyone plays by our rules and force is unnecessary.

The last national leader who thought that way was a guy named Neville Chamberlain who had been Mayor of Birmingham and thought that was enough background.

"We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analysing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will."

Sound familiar ?; 12/20/14, 11:24 AM
Big Mike said...: David's right; 12/20/14, 11:27 AM
Anonymous said...: As far as I can tell, the rap against Obama's deal is that it will fail to produce the results that current policy has likewise failed to produce, in 55 years of trying.; 12/20/14, 11:42 AM
jr565 said...: On Levins show Rubio also makes great points about China. Rather than lifting embargos on Cuba we might want to be placing embargoes on China (he doesn't say that, he just poitns out that using China as an example is absurd considering what China is actually doing.)

And as Rubio states, if there were reciprocal steps on Cuba's part he would warily optimistic, *trust but verify. Only Obama got not a single concession from Cuba. They're out there today (again as Rubio states) TODAY saying how this is a victory over the imperialists.
How on earth could Rand Paul support this ignorant policy?; 12/20/14, 11:44 AM
jr565 said...: Paul Zimesk wrote:
As far as I can tell, the rap against Obama's deal is that it will fail to produce the results that current policy has likewise failed to produce, in 55 years of trying.

Well it will infuse much needed cash into Cuba's dictatorship, since Venezuela and Russia are no longer ponying up cash.
So it will have the effect of strengethening communism there.
Without financial backers, the Castro brothers might finally be over a barrel. But no, we'll now be there backers and give them credits to borrow against. And they don't have to do anything.
They can stilll even call us imperialists.

If you're going to lift an embargo, unilaterally, without even consulting congress about it, and which is in direct conflict to US law, you might as well get something out of the deal other than strengthening your enemies.

And Obama even added the cherry on top of apologizing to Cuba for our imperialism. F him, and F Rand Paul for adopting his foreign policy.; 12/20/14, 11:49 AM
jr565 said...: iowan2 wrote:
I can't fathom the absence from any news coverage of Obama's hit and run diplomacy, exactly what affirmative improvements to the lives of Cuban's did Obama assure? What?

Just like the Bergdahl fiasco. Obama has no concept of how to negotiated for the betterment of the US. He should have, but is either blindly self centered or inept.
We're all disappointed by Obama, but we also know that this is what Obama does. He will give the store to our enemies bowing and scraping all the way, and will get nothing for it. We know this.
What's more disappointing is that Now Rand Paul is wading in essentially offering Obama's policy as if it was smart diplomacy. Is Rand Paul for real?
I'm going to criticize Obama, when Rand Paul articulates the exact same thing as a good thing? Why is Rand Paul even in the Republican party?
Every time I think I'm warming up to him he has to go and open his mouth.; 12/20/14, 11:54 AM
TommyC1 said...: I think the winner might just be President Walker. Relations had to be normalized sometime. Now he won't have to. This is not to say that any commenters are necessarily incorrect. It's just that the issue is now off the table. The consequences will have to be dealt with, but I think President Walker will be able to handle them.; 12/20/14, 12:01 PM
buwaya said...: The "55years" thing is silly.
For most if that time the embargo was mutual, or rather, redundant on the part of the US as Cuba was integrated into the Soviet system, and in fact Cuba was one of the Soviet states most unwilling to trade with anyone outside the system. East Germany and most of the rest were rather eager to trade actually. They actually advertised and sent trade reps and had representation in trade fairs. My dad went on several trips to Eastern Europe in the late 60s early 70s buying cheap industrial machinery at the invitation of several governments.
Not Cuba. They had their Soviet subsidies.
When the subsidies ended they did everything they could to obtain new ones in order to avoid making changes. The Euros were the first sugar daddies, the Venezuelans the last. They have run out of sugar daddies.
Up to this point the US embargo has been irrelevant, not a factor other than in propaganda.
Now is when the embargo finally matters, and now perversely it is abandoned.; 12/20/14, 12:01 PM
damikesc said...: I find it funny that the only real deep policy divisions are in the GOP.

The Dems pretend to not agree, but you know those robots will vote in lockstep unison.

I'll say I'm sympathetic to Rand's position, but Rubio makes an infinitely better argument for his.; 12/20/14, 12:07 PM
jr565 said...: Elliot A wrote:
I have to admit that the viewpoint Rand Paul has is the most logical. 55 years of the current policy has produced no results. If there was an influx of American travelers and their influence, a baseball agreement where Cuban players would not have to defect to play here, and a loss of our antagonistic attitude, the Cuban people would eventually scream for reform. It worked with the Soviets, maybe it would work here. Also, there is very little danger from Cuba, so the risk may be worth it.

The way you get the results is by lifting the embargo when you get those results. That's the whole reason why we have an embergo in the first place. It's magical thinking to think we would lift the embargo, and bankroll the regime and somehow they would come around. What if they don't what are we going to do, put an embargo in place?
"we're going to lift the embargo. But if you don't reform we're going to punish you by embargoing you!"
So then where do you see the mechanism for change if we reward them for not changing? And if we do trade with them it's not as if Cubans are going to see the money. they'll get ten cents on the dollar. Their wages are still capped. No what will happen is WE will now be bankrolling the continued oppression of Castro's critics in the country.
And what do we gain from trading with Cuba? We import already. We just don't allow them to buy on credit. Now we would. Ask Venezuela how that worked out for them. Cuba can't pay them back, and would have even less of a reason to pay us.
So, if we're going to discuss lifting embargoes, it has to be based on things that benefit us (or Cubans living under opression) and not things that benefit Castro. If that's what happens then we might as well be working for our enemies.
And I have no interest in funding communism,or wahabism. There too, I'm sure Obama and Rand will give away the store,and get no concessions out of it.; 12/20/14, 12:07 PM
jr565 said...: "The "55years" thing is silly.
For most if that time the embargo was mutual, or rather, redundant on the part of the US as Cuba was integrated into the Soviet system, and in fact Cuba was one of the Soviet states most unwilling to trade with anyone outside the system. "
Cuba nationalized their economy and kicked out our companies. They didn't want the imperial dollars.

"When the subsidies ended they did everything they could to obtain new ones in order to avoid making changes. The Euros were the first sugar daddies, the Venezuelans the last. They have run out of sugar daddies.
Up to this point the US embargo has been irrelevant, not a factor other than in propaganda.
Now is when the embargo finally matters, and now perversely it is abandoned."
ANd I can see why Obama is doing it. Because he's a man of the left at heart. Why is Rand Paul advocating it? Is Castroism too big to fail? We need to keep the cash flowing there as otherwise Castroism might fall? About fricking time.; 12/20/14, 12:12 PM
Wince said...: Rubio should have focused on Obama's demonstrated lack of negotiating prowess (or sympathy for the enemies of freedom in the world) that made it a bad choice.; 12/20/14, 12:19 PM
traditionalguy said...: The consensus in the media is that Obama awarding The Cuban Dictators for Life Family Police State with American tourism to bankroll more of their secret police and torture chambers for Cuban peasants is a great leap forward.

It seems Obama and Pope Francis agree that Castro's governance methods should be everybody's best hope for the future...especially if you are either a Communist Ruling Class guy or a Clerical Ruling Class guy.; 12/20/14, 12:19 PM
jr565 said...: Michael Moore tweeted:
Cuba 1, USA 0. Congrats on winning the longest game on record,Ok fellow Americans, let's not be sore losers!"

"Finally, another piece of crazy exits the American Way,""Cuba's pissy whiny neighbor grows up. Thank u Obama. #haveacigar,"

If Michael Moore is saying that, Rand Paul ought to rethink his whole message. Does he really want to be associated with the Michael Moore's of the world?
How did Cuba win? Castro won. And Michael Moore is a big defender of both socialism and Castroism. DOn't we remember his love fest to Cuba's medical system only a few years ago? Rand, you're lying down with dogs now.; 12/20/14, 12:31 PM
Bob R said...: Cigar smokers are the winners. I don't see this as being that big a deal. The embargo didn't have the intended effect, so I don't see a big problem with ending it. I also don't see any big benefit from ending the embargo.; 12/20/14, 12:49 PM
chickelit said...: Rand Paul is starting to look like a Che sara sara glibertarian on this issue.

I really don't see how ignores the enrichment of the Castro Bros. issue.; 12/20/14, 12:56 PM
jr565 said...: Rand is also wrong about trade liberalizing Cuba since only the US has an embargo on Cuba. They can trade with anyone else in the world. How have they reformed their system? They haven't.
They can get technology and telecomunnications they need from China and are not exactly hurting form trading partners.
So this notion that they will suddenly change because of trade is farcical.; 12/20/14, 1:00 PM
Amexpat said...: Don't know how this will play out politically in the GOP, but Rand Paul gets my respect for acting out of principal and not looking at the 2016 Florida primary.

As a matter of policy Paul is also correct. The embargo hasn't had the desired effect. On the contrary, it's given the Castro regime a lame excuse for their failed economic policies.; 12/20/14, 1:04 PM
Anonymous said...: They can get technology and telecomunnications they need from China and are not exactly hurting form trading partners.
So this notion that they will suddenly change because of trade is farcical.

And so, therefore, is the notion that denying them US trade somehow weakens the regime.

The main beneficiaries of a lifted embargo would be US businesses and tourists. Nothing bad about that.; 12/20/14, 1:05 PM
buwaya said...: The embargo had not had a chance to bite until now, when the US is the last remaining option for financial aid to the Cuban regime. Nobody else wants to or can subsidize them anymore. They now have no choice but to come to their worst enemies hat in hand. This is finally the decisive moment, delivered by time and circumstance. And Obama blew it.; 12/20/14, 1:22 PM
buwaya said...: When your enemy is down and your knife is at his throat, cut it.; 12/20/14, 1:26 PM
Lewis Wetzel said...: I keep waiting for someone in the journalism world to point out that Obama's foreign policy record is abysmal.; 12/20/14, 1:29 PM
jr565 said...: Cubans who work for foreign companies in Cuba will only get to keep 8% of their salary. 92% goes to Castro's regime. That'll show them!

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/12/19/castro-to-pocket-92-of-worker-salaries-from-foreign-companies/; 12/20/14, 1:40 PM
Anonymous said...: The embargo had not had a chance to bite until now

Ahem.; 12/20/14, 1:41 PM
buwaya said...: The Cuban regime in the "special period" was saved just in time by the Europeans. If they hadn't meddled the whole business would have been settled then.
I blame the Clinton administration, but there is only so much one can do about ones idiot allies.
About 10 years later the Euros were thoroughly burned, but the brainless anti-American Venezuelan regime just then came into money and even more idiotically than the Euros decided to buy Castro.
Now we have another chance to end the thing, and the present US administration, even stupider than the Euros and the Venezuelans put together ....; 12/20/14, 1:52 PM
Alex said...: None. They're both pathetic trying to outdo each other with the embargo bullshit. It's time to lift the embargo on Cuba and show that America can forgive.; 12/20/14, 1:53 PM
Alex said...: Also we have no business having a military base in Cuba(I pronounce it Cooba). Pull it out now.; 12/20/14, 1:55 PM
buwaya said...: States do not forgive.
Statesmen run an inhuman system, which is an entity composed of human beings but is not itself human.
There is no mercy here, that is a sentimental anthromorphism.
You can be merciful to an individual, but not to a government.; 12/20/14, 1:57 PM
Alex said...: Actually yes you can be merciful to a collective. It's time to put down our arms. Turn our swords into plowshares. Be like Jesus. You know America claims to be a Christian country. Start living like it.; 12/20/14, 1:59 PM
buwaya said...: We must agree to disagree. Collectives aren't persons and moral reasoning does not apply.; 12/20/14, 2:01 PM
Laslo Spatula said...: Now that the embargo is lifted, does this mean Cuba Gooding Jr. will start making movies again?

I am Laslo.; 12/20/14, 2:01 PM
tim maguire said...: I hope Paul wins, but expect Rubio to.; 12/20/14, 2:10 PM
buwaya said...: Much as the North Korean regime was saved in the 1990s by international aid and more so by South Korean subsidies from the truly silly Kim Dae Jung government. These days besides aid from their enemies they are being propped up by the Chinese, who were not quite feeling their oats at the time, still wanting stuff from the US like MFN and WTO membership. Now nobody really has much leverage on NK other than the Chinese.
This is why one must take ones opportunities to finish your enemies, when events make them vulnerable you, as the moment will pass.; 12/20/14, 2:13 PM
jr565 said...: Alex wrote:
Actually yes you can be merciful to a collective. It's time to put down our arms. Turn our swords into plowshares. Be like Jesus. You know America claims to be a Christian country. Start living like it.

We're talking about not trading with a country, not being at war with it. And this was Cuba's choice, by the way. They kicked out our industries and made them nationalized. They always had Soviet dollars to fall back on so could get away with it, but now they don't. Somehow then it's our fault?; 12/20/14, 2:21 PM
jr565 said...: Alex wrote:
None. They're both pathetic trying to outdo each other with the embargo bullshit. It's time to lift the embargo on Cuba and show that America can forgive.

It's not about forgiving its about Cuba, or specifically Castro's regime change.; 12/20/14, 2:23 PM
buwaya said...: Rubles, not dollars, but that wasn't all that relevant anyway inside Comecon. The actual system was more like barter. Unless you had a hard currency, like dollars. In that case you got priority and the factory guys would pull out all the stops to make sure you got the best stuff promptly.
That is, its how it worked in the more rational parts of the Eastern Block.; 12/20/14, 2:27 PM
buwaya said...: More rational players in the Eastern block back in the day (we are talking commie regimes vis trade in the 60s-70s were the Poles, Czechs and Bulgarians. Very reasonable sorts, under the circumstances. The East Germans actually had the most to sell, and did, but they were universally reputed to be assholes. The Rumanians were useless and insane. Nobody wanted to deal with the Cubans other than the Russians, and they didn't like them. Moochers and thieves, pretty much. That's the feedback (granted, just one viewpoint) of people dealing with Comecon countries at the time.; 12/20/14, 2:36 PM
Lydia said...: If we want to understand how Rand Paul can be so idiotic on this, maybe reading what his daddy just said about Cuba will help. Ron's totally on board with Obama's move, but wants no part of any "meddling" in Cuba's internal affairs. Rather:

"...if the US truly wants Cuba to become a free and prosperous country: the US government should completely remove all restrictions on US citizens and then step aside. American tourists, businessmen, students, and scholars can do far more to promote real American values than bureaucrats, government-funded NGOs, and US-funded propaganda broadcasts."

There's a very basic ignorance/naïveté/nuttiness expressed in that, which I fear has had a huge influence on Rand.; 12/20/14, 2:49 PM
Anonymous said...: The Cuban regime in the "special period" was saved just in time by the Europeans. If they hadn't meddled the whole business would have been settled then.

Rumor has it that Europeans still exist. So why expect any better result this time?; 12/20/14, 3:00 PM
JackWayne said...: Does no one appreciate irony? Cuba is somewhere between 62-72% black. The communist leadership is mostly white. Rubio may have the better argument to some but the idea that the white American Cubans have any intention of going back OR returning to leadership is crazy. Obama has acted as a Great Leader rather than a President. What's new? Every step he takes, he steps into poo. What if Congress doesn't change the law?; 12/20/14, 3:02 PM
jr565 said...: "It's not about forgiving its about Cuba, or specifically Castro's regime change."
That should have said regime CHANGING. not implyin that we need to affect regime change. They need to reform themselves.; 12/20/14, 3:06 PM
buwaya said...: In the old Cuban system, the blacks actually had the power, being the army and unions, and the whites had the wealth, being the middle class and the property owners. Cuba had a huge and prosperous middle class.
The educated commie radicals were white.
So a black-run country with a white bourgeoise is not odd.; 12/20/14, 3:08 PM
Unknown said...: ----As far as I can tell, the rap against Obama's deal is that it will fail to produce the results that current policy has likewise failed to produce, in 55 years of trying.---

That’s the best case. Now throw in Russian Bombers and Cuban spies.; 12/20/14, 3:12 PM
Phil 314 said...: I agree with Rand Paul and understand Rubio's position and his families past.

I do hope this leads to the results we've seen in Vietnam.

I don't think this will have much a political impact on 2016 politics.; 12/20/14, 3:14 PM
buwaya said...: Because the Euros are done loaning them money. Been there, done that, can't collect, cut up the credit card.; 12/20/14, 3:14 PM
buwaya said...: If anyone wants a one-stop, thorough understanding of the why's and how's of Cuba pre-Castro and how all this mess started, I can recommend Hugh Thomas' book on Cuba. He has been issuing regular updated editions. Next best thing if you haven't got a bunch of actual well informed Cubans around to talk to.
Nothing like Thomas book by any actual Cubans unfortunately, most everything is very partisan one way or another.; 12/20/14, 3:22 PM
chickelit said...: buwaya puti said...
we are talking commie regimes vis trade in the 60s-70s...

"Commie" is such an ugly pejorative word. It's not high on the list of words to be banned (yet), but eventually the PC'ers will get around to rescuing it.; 12/20/14, 3:29 PM
jr565 said...: Lydia, quoting Ron Paul wrote:

"...if the US truly wants Cuba to become a free and prosperous country: the US government should completely remove all restrictions on US citizens and then step aside. American tourists, businessmen, students, and scholars can do far more to promote real American values than bureaucrats, government-funded NGOs, and US-funded propaganda broadcasts."

It sounds good, IN THEORY. But plenty of countries have travelled to Cuba. Since Cuba owns the hotels and caps the hotel workers pay, any tourism dollars go to regime. I'm sure the regime would appreciate even more business. What incentive does Cuba have though to actually change the system.
The fundamental flaw in his logic is that there is no real reason to ever change communist cuba since people are going to vacation in Cuba. Despite it being communist Cuba. If they would do that ANYWAY, there's no reason to reform. Because they already got the tourism dollars.; 12/20/14, 3:30 PM
buwaya said...: Is it not essential to retain a comprehensive stock of ugly pejorative words ? If these words aren't given some periodic healthy exercise, they will wither and the language will lose some of its spice.; 12/20/14, 3:45 PM
Michael K said...: "Actually yes you can be merciful to a collective. It's time to put down our arms. Turn our swords into plowshares. Be like Jesus. You know America claims to be a Christian country. Start living like it."

I fear this is what Obama is thinking. Neville Chamberlain agreed.

"How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war."

Yes and

"No conqueror returning from a victory on the battlefield has come home adorned with nobler laurels than MR CHAMBERLAIN from Munich yesterday, and KING and people alike have shown by the manner of their reception their sense of his achievement.
"A New Dawn", The Times, 1 October 1938; opening words of the leader on the Munich Agreement."

Yes, you know best, Alex. Swords into plowshares. Or chains for that matter.; 12/20/14, 3:46 PM
chickelit said...: What Alex really wrote:
Actually yes you can be munificent to a collective. It's time to put down our qualms and pump up our alms. Turn our words into timeshares. Belike the Jesuit. You know America claims to be a Capitalist country. Start living like one.; 12/20/14, 3:51 PM
Static Ping said...: Having listened to both Paul and Rubio discuss this issue, my opinion of both of them has risen. I think they are both good men. I lean toward's Rubio's argument, given that the "open up trade and things change" strategy has not had the best track record. Then again Cuba is geographically and culturally much closer to us than China or Vietnam, so maybe it might work better this time. I doubt.

As to Castro winning, assuming Fidel is still breathing, well good for him. He survived. He also almost started WWIII (from what I hear the Russians thought he was nuts), he has ruined his country, he exported his pain to other countries, and he made his beloved baseball a weaker product by imprisoning prime talent. I suppose I can respect his ability to remain in power, but by any objective standard he was a failure as a human being. This does not even qualify as Charlie Sheen "WINNING!"

And, yes, Obama is an awful negotiator. Since Cuba's moneybags were gone, he probably had the strongest negotiating position of any president since Fidel took power. This deal is pathetic. If he tried to sell me a used car, I probably would get the car for free, plus $500, plus his pants. Not that I would want his pants, but it is the principle of the thing.; 12/20/14, 3:54 PM
Titus said...: We are all winners!

except checklist, who is unemployed.; 12/20/14, 4:18 PM
Writ Small said...: In the demolition derby that is the Republican nomination process, neither of these esteemed gentlemen are winning.; 12/20/14, 5:01 PM
John henry said...: For 50 years Castro has been telling the Cuban people that the reason they can't have nice things (like toilet paper, eggs, meat more than a couple times a month. You know, the luxuries) is because of the US embargo.

Never mind that they could buy anything from any other country.

IF they had something to trade for it. Once they ship a couple boatloads of cigars, some molasses and some of their nasty rum (Think Bacardi but even rougher) what have they got left?

We need to raise the embargo and tell Cuba they can buy anything they want. Cash or trade goods on the nail. No credit.

Cuban people will see that their starvation never was about the embargo.

The embargo props up the Castros and serves no other useful purpose.

Cuba is a shithole and only a step or two above North Korea. But we trade with plenty of other shitholes. Why not Cuba?

And the reason for all of this? Fracking. Oil is at $55/bbl and Venezuela can't support itself much less support Cuba. I suspect that Maduro told Castro that he is cutting him loose. Castro needs a new sugar daddy. Hopefully not Uncle Sap.

John Henry

PS: What fresh Hell is this new captcha? Now it just seems to want me to say I am not a robot.

Well, I am a robot. Let's see if this post goes through.; 12/20/14, 5:22 PM
Achilles said...: "...if the US truly wants Cuba to become a free and prosperous country: the US government should completely remove all restrictions on US citizens and then step aside. American tourists, businessmen, students, and scholars can do far more to promote real American values than bureaucrats, government-funded NGOs, and US-funded propaganda broadcasts."

"There's a very basic ignorance/naïveté/nuttiness expressed in that, which I fear has had a huge influence on Rand"

Please explain the basic ignorance. I have a lot more faith in the private sector than I do in bureaucracy. Is the state department our best bet?

I prefer just killing all of the Castro family myself. From space with medium sized bombs to ensure death but minimize casualties. And put the results on TV.

But short of that I don't see how letters from John Kerry are going to do much for the people of Cuba. People are just looking for reasons to flame Rand over this. There isn't much here.; 12/20/14, 5:22 PM
John henry said...: Alex says to turn our swords into plowshares but, like so many, gets the quote backwards.

It is actually:

Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

Joel 3:10

John Henry; 12/20/14, 5:26 PM
John henry said...: Living in Puerto Rico we have a fair number of successful Cuban entrepreneurs The Metropol Restaurants were founded by a fellow who came with nothing in the early 60s and started selling hot dogs from a cart. If you come to PR do not miss it. Best restaurants on the island.

I used to have an environmental consultant back in the 80s who was retired from Bacardi. He had come here in 56 when the Bacardis moved production from Cuba.

In 1961 his cousin showed up with the clothes he was wearing and nothing more. Candido let him sleep in a spare room. Geronimo could not get a job because of his irregular status so started servicing coin operated pool tables. Then owning them.

Then a funky little Japanese moped company offered him a dealership. Geronimo thought it might go somewhere and asked Candido to go in with him. Candido had a good job at Bacardi and declined.

Geronimo went on to own exclusive rights to all Honda products in the Caribbean and parts of central America.

About once a month Candido would tell me the story and how he still kicks himself.

John Henry; 12/20/14, 5:37 PM
Jason said...: Yes, but see also Isaiah 2:4; 12/20/14, 5:38 PM
paminwi said...: Paul Z says: the main beneficiaries will be US business and tourists.

Yeah, let's have all kinds of businesses set up shop in Cuba and when things get dicey the Castro's or their cohorts will just nationalize businesses again like they did before or like their buddy in Venezuela did. Then, all those great American $ will be lost just like there were before and in Venezuela.

They had the ability to have all kinds of other countries give them business and it is still a fucked up country. And, once again, there arectho; 12/20/14, 11:13 PM
paminwi said...: Oops! Why do we think the USA will be the savior of this country. Crazy to believe that.; 12/20/14, 11:15 PM
Phil 314 said...: John Henry said:
"..like so many, gets the quote backwards.

It is actually:

'Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.'"

Both quotes are in the bible. Consider it similar to the verses in Ecclesiastes 3; 12/21/14, 8:32 AM
Rusty said...: John. The only problemisthat the Cuban people have no money .
Cuba is a lot like the old communist East Germany. Everybody is spying on their neighbor.; 12/21/14, 10:04 AM
Joe said...: Sooner than later, the Castros will be gone. If we in the US want any influence over what happens next, we need to engage with Cuba now. The last thing we and the Cuban people need is for that island nation to look to Europe or South America for democratic inspiration, not the United States.; 12/21/14, 11:11 AM
bbkingfish said...: Rubio is owned body and soul by the Cuba lobby. He has no other constituency left in his home state.

You might as well ask Howdy Doody what he thinks is appropriate policy toward Cuba.; 12/22/14, 10:21 AM