Althouse: "It seems to me that men in France (if employed) are a content lot. I'm not saying that women are not."

December 12, 2014

"It seems to me that men in France (if employed) are a content lot. I'm not saying that women are not."

"Why do I assign a higher level of contentedness to French men? Obviously not based on scientific data. But do, please look around you when you're in France.... Take this scene from breakfast: he told her stories with animation and passion the whole time I was at the cafe. She barely said a word. But she did nod and smile and give signs that she was listening and that she cared. For better or worse (in my opinion - probably worse), women still do appear to want to please men. They want to look good for them, for instance. You can tell (and literature confirms this). Whereas I can't really recall the last time I dressed with care for Ed's benefit. Women I know back home like to look good for themselves and not necessarily for some guy's approving glance."

Nina writes, from Paris, with a great photo take from behind the back of a man who is receiving the gaze of a beautiful woman who is sitting under a painting of a man with his back turned. Under the table, a dog gazes outward.

51 comments:

Franklin said...: When she talks about how she doesn't know anyone back home that dresses for men, Nina sounds a lot like Pauline Kael.; 12/12/14, 6:54 AM
Vet66 said...: "Women may fall when there is no strength in men."

Shakespeare; 12/12/14, 6:57 AM
Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of New York said...: Wow whadda biotch.

I remember one time I had dinner at a restaurant near Pismo Beach and there was some poor guy there, at the next table, just trying to get laid, and he listened and listened and listened to the most vapid, droning, empty and at the same time excruciatingly detailed account of something or other.

Since female happiness has a higher value than male happiness, this dinner increased the net happiness of California.; 12/12/14, 7:11 AM
Ann Althouse said...: "When she talks about how she doesn't know anyone back home that dresses for men..."

I get the Pauline Kael wisecrack, but you should observe the precise language: "Women I know back home like to look good for themselves and not necessarily for some guy's approving glance..."

That does not say the women she knows in Madison don't dress for men. It says the women dress for themselves as a separate matter, and they may also but "not necessarily" be dressing in an effort to win approval from "some guy."

One could fit that description by dressing for yourself and also for others, including men. And I think you can infer that Nina disapproves of approval-seeking women. So if you are an approval-seeking type woman and you seek approval from Nina, you'll have to be tricky. But not that tricky. I'd guess it would work for a woman to be in touch with what feels good and self-expressive to her and to maintain optimism and confidence that this will appeal to others, including men who will be attracted to you for what is distinctively you (as opposed to what you tried to figure out they would like and wore out of a desire to be loved).; 12/12/14, 7:21 AM
Phil 314 said...: Nina needs to get a real job.; 12/12/14, 7:27 AM
Guildofcannonballs said...: Girls walk by dressed up for each other. - Van Morrison

This includes makeup.

Also, Tim just gave the strongest argument justifying feminist intolerance I have ever seen. Casual dismissal all the way down using cowardly, childish bullshit terms.

Thanks Tim, you son-of-a-mink fargin' icehole.; 12/12/14, 7:32 AM
pm317 said...: I don't agree with Nina on this. Who knows what that woman was thinking. Look at her in the breakfast picture.. She does not have to do anything to get approval, for herself, or from a man.. Some of us are not endowed with what is traditionally considered good looks and we stop trying, period (not because we don't seek approval from a man) -- at college once I said to another woman something like I don't care for beauty (meaning I don't dwell on being or not being beautiful), and she snapped that if you don't have it, of course, you don't care. When we don't have it, man or no man in the picture, there is nothing to flaunt. Beautiful people do want to show off -- nothing wrong with that and we would never know whether they do it to please a man or for the benefit of everybody including themselves.

And I think it is another liberal thing to not wear makeup and try to especially say, we don't care to do those things for men.. which is annoying.; 12/12/14, 7:52 AM
Bob Ellison said...: My German Shepherd dog is a female. She doesn't display female markings. She would probably smell like a female to other dogs, but she's spayed.

Maybe, still. Male dogs aren't choosy.; 12/12/14, 8:00 AM
rehajm said...: I do enjoy Nina's photos...

Astute observation that there are cultural differences between Americans and Parisians! Parisian fashion is competitive bloodsport. Always well dressed for the street. No workout clothes, no walking around with coffee in your hand.

Yes Parisian women do seem do dress (in part) to please men. Competition for male attention is also bloodsport, be you wife or mistress or aspiring to either.

Nina observed contentment in men. Did she notice lack of same in women?; 12/12/14, 8:04 AM
Bob Ellison said...: BTW, the "please prove you're not a robot" thing on comments is weird. There's no way I've got it right every time, because many times the letters/numbers are long and unreadable.

I'm guessing that either

1) it's a total fake, or

2) there's a Siri-like tech going on in the background, saying, "Ha ha ha! He said SFESJTE when we asked for SFEEJTE! Close enough, let him through."; 12/12/14, 8:08 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Maybe it's one of those "see the first and last letters of the word" things.; 12/12/14, 8:10 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Ha! I just got in with the wrong password!; 12/12/14, 8:10 AM
pm317 said...: Yes Parisian women do seem do dress (in part) to please men. Competition for male attention is also bloodsport, be you wife or mistress or aspiring to either.

I think it goes both ways, the way they are into affairs and casual sex and not making a big deal of it, except for men, it is a different strategy to please women and attract them.

What is the equivalent of 'women wearing makeup to please/attract men,' for men?; 12/12/14, 8:12 AM
Bob Ellison said...: I'm going to try to post this comment with a totally, totally wrong password.; 12/12/14, 8:12 AM
Bob Ellison said...: OK, and now with no password at all.; 12/12/14, 8:12 AM
Bob Ellison said...: OK, fake fake fake. Ignore. Robots and trolls, post at will.; 12/12/14, 8:13 AM
Tank said...: One of the really interesting things about TRAVELLING is observing and interacting with the people in other countries and cultures. It's somewhat dangerous to give too much weight to your own limited observations, but ....

While in the south of France we noticed the way the parents interacted with their kids (this has been discussed here before, I think), and found it "different" than in America.

Tank very much enjoyed the women in France. There is a softness, a femininity to the way they speak and dress and look and act. They are also, as a group, less fat than Americans. That was my impression.

The men there appear softer too.; 12/12/14, 8:15 AM
SGT Ted said...: American women are more self centered is what she is saying. They pretend it is "empowering" to be so. Women walking by dressed up for each other is another illustration of that casual narcissism.

Ukraine was similar; the women were obviously happy to dress nicely for men to notice them.

notquiteunbuckley's characterization of tim's post assumes female superiority of opinion. Far too many women drone on and on about stupid trivial shit and expect men to listen endlessly in rapt attention, as if they were women . Anyways, how come women are suppose to be immune from hearing that their diarrhea mouth is boorish? The idea that criticizing boorish and boring women is somehow misogynist is the entire problem with the feminist supremacist mindset.; 12/12/14, 8:20 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Or, maybe...maybe...I have some special access. Maybe the Professor has a list of "people who can post at will", and I'm on it.

That seems unlikely. And I'm so far off-topic that I'd expect this comment to be deleted.; 12/12/14, 8:23 AM
CStanley said...: I usually enjoy Nina's observations (and always enjoy the photos) but I think she is reading way too much into this one. The dog looks very contented though,; 12/12/14, 8:26 AM
Bob Ellison said...: Maybe I misunderstand. Maybe the robot thingy is just a poll. The Professor could want to calculate the percentage of robots that populate her commentariat.

Maybe the end times are upon us. Could the robots be about to take over?

The zombie attention could be a feint.; 12/12/14, 8:34 AM
rehajm said...: What is the equivalent of 'women wearing makeup to please/attract men,' for men?

No shorts?

More to the point I think Nina observes:

Take this scene from breakfast: he told her stories with animation and passion the whole time I was at the cafe.; 12/12/14, 8:41 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: Let me help here: I am fluent in reading the faces of French women.

Although pretending to listen, she is contemplating what level of sexual activity of which she will engage with this man. She has obviously mentally agreed to fellatio, but is hesitant about vaginal intercourse. From her body language you can be sure that anal sex is out of the question: the man is not THAT interesting.

If it is to be vaginal intercourse she will leave her panties between the cushions of his tasteful couch. This is a test: will he acknowledge that the panties were left there, and call her to let her know? Or will he never mention it, meaning that he found them and is keeping them as a secret souvenir?

It is obvious to the trained viewer that she has already evaluated the man's financial resources and has decided that she will not retrieve his used condom and attempt to surreptitiously inseminate herself in the bathroom.

Finally, she is trying to put out of her mind that her mother is in the hospital and she has still not stopped by to visit. This also -- not coincidentally -- makes her consider the possibility of spanking.

I am Laslo.; 12/12/14, 8:51 AM
Unknown said...: Poor Ed.; 12/12/14, 8:58 AM
Laslo Spatula said...: While not fluent, I am quite adept at reading the facial expressions of Japanese schoolgirls in knee-high white socks, but I'll leave that for a more appropriate post.

I am Laslo.; 12/12/14, 9:02 AM
TosaGuy said...: Nina, like the rest of us, view the world through our preferred lens.; 12/12/14, 9:05 AM
Gahrie said...: For better or worse (in my opinion - probably worse), women still do appear to want to please men.

The horror!

Don't this women know they're being oppressed?

But of course men, the government and society better damn well spend their time pleasing women! (if they want to get any peace at least); 12/12/14, 9:24 AM
Anonymous said...: SGT Ted: Far too many women drone on and on about stupid trivial shit and expect men to listen endlessly in rapt attention...

Yep, I do see a lot of incredibly boring and boorish women around. (Loud, too.) I've heard men complain about this my whole life, and most of 'em have my sympathy. There is nothing worse than a droning adult bore for whom "conversation" is an alien concept.

However, a word to that subset of gentlemen who complain about this obnoxious female behavior but yet believe that an ideal "conversation" with a woman consists of her adoring silent rapt attention as you blither on about yourself: you're exactly the same kind of person. (Your one saving grace is that the lower ptich of a male voice makes it less annoying than that of an equivalently loud and loquacious female. Less annoying, not not annoying.)

...as if they were women.

Most women with IQs over room temperature don't want to listen to their blather, either. Don't know why other women put up with it, any more than men. Rarely do I sit down in a cafe these days when I'm not treated to the spectacle of some screeching female bore-bag draining the will to live out of a female companion, sitting silently with that pained "kill me now" expression on her face.

Anyways, how come women are suppose to be immune from hearing that their diarrhea mouth is boorish? The idea that criticizing boorish and boring women is somehow misogynist is the entire problem with the feminist supremacist mindset.

You're overthinking this, Sarge. They're boorish bores. Boorishness is a kind of sociopathy - exquisite sensitivity about oneself combined with utter insensitivity and inability to recognize (or sheer indifference to) the fact that they're boring the pants off somebody else. I never met a boorish man (and I've met plenty) who wasn't exactly the same way, with the same comical lack of self-insight. They all no doubt thought that as a woman I was just dying to listen adoringly and sympathetically to their trivial non-stop self-centered blather, but I don't think their boorishness was a product of some "male supremacist" ideology. They just weren't brung up right.; 12/12/14, 9:27 AM
Kirk Parker said...: Althouse,

Here's some precise language back at ya:

"Whereas I can't really recall the last time I dressed with care for Ed's benefit."

I'm with Eustace: poor Ed.; 12/12/14, 9:39 AM
Mark O said...: Trying to please someone you like is just so antediluvian.; 12/12/14, 9:41 AM
Franklin said...: @Ann Althouse - I would say that Nina's insistence that she dresses for herself and if it incidentally pleases men then great! is not being honest with herself about the true reason for dressing up. At the risk of evolutionary reductionism, almost everything humans do is designed to secure a mate.

Example - I have had a friend try to tell me that she likes that her husband is hedge fund-wealthy not because of the money, but because she appreciates the traits that enabled him to make so much money (hard work, intelligence, etc). I'd say she's not being honest because in American culture honesty is seen as crass or rude, and the French have a different sense of it.

Have a conversation with a Brit or Frenchman, they're much more honest and open (which makes them more interesting than an American that's scared to let others know how and why they really feel).; 12/12/14, 10:10 AM
Franklin said...: ^caution, generalizations above.

I'll add a hashtag to that comment: #inmyexperience; 12/12/14, 10:11 AM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: Ann Althouse said... (as opposed to what you tried to figure out they would like and wore out of a desire to be loved).

It seems like that gets back into the gift giving/altruism paradox a bit, though.

It'd probably be easier to find a French translation for "French women, you should go black in the eyes and say [we] don't fucking care if you like it!"; 12/12/14, 10:20 AM
William said...: Life as a high end consumer product. You Walmart shoppers just wouldn't understand.; 12/12/14, 10:25 AM
Diamondhead said...: "For better or worse (in my opinion - probably worse), women still do appear to want to please men."

New definition of feminism - the haunting fear that some woman, somewhere, still wants to please a man.; 12/12/14, 10:34 AM
Anonymous said...: franklin: I would say that Nina's insistence that she dresses for herself and if it incidentally pleases men then great! is not being honest with herself about the true reason for dressing up. At the risk of evolutionary reductionism, almost everything humans do is designed to secure a mate.

Well, sure, it all has its origin in trying to be sexually attractive, but that doesn't mean it doesn't develop in other directions, or that the impulse and its manifestations don't vary among people. We snicker at a woman who says "I got this boob job for myself, not to be attractive to men" - yeah, sure you did, toots. But it's also obvious that the love of clothing and fashion has a large element of aesthetic delight that is one of those "pointless" by-products of evolved behaviors. (Not even getting into fashion as status-display, which always mystifies and sometimes annoys men, since it isn't all about attracting them.)

The aesthetic basis of "looking nice" is of course mostly going to be "looking sexually attractive" (that's the origin of the standard, after all), but that hardly makes a statement that one dresses mainly to please oneself dishonest - especially for an older person. I'm way too old for men to be checking me out, yet I assure you that I get as much aesthetic pleasure in choosing clothes and putting together an elegant ensemble as I ever did. If someone looks and thinks, "hey, that old lady looks sharp!", that's icing on the cake, but it's not like I assume, at my age, that anyone's going to be looking at all.; 12/12/14, 11:35 AM
Franklin said...: You're right, Angelyne, I meant my comment to come across as more about the way American culture discourages honesty in favor of social grace, which is what I think Nina is affected by.

In her circles, it's simply unacceptable to say that she's getting dressed up for a man or that she wants to please a man, even though, ultimately, that's what dressing up is for.

The French are not as priggish as Americans in this regard and think it's perfectly acceptable to want to please their partner.; 12/12/14, 11:45 AM
JAORE said...: One hopes Ed is wise enough to not read her work. If he does I doubt she is aware that her toss off line is demeaning.; 12/12/14, 11:45 AM
JAORE said...: Angeleyne, you do not note your age. But I assure you there are men that can appreciate the beauty of an older woman. I'm comfortably into my sixth decade. I found older women, and younger, to be attractive for as long as I can remember. My wife is one (THE one) but I've got a neighbor some 9 years her senior who I find beautiful.; 12/12/14, 11:56 AM
Lawyer Mom said...: Why does she believe pleasing men "is for the worse"? Would she similarly discourage men from pleasing women? That's nuts. Wanting to appeal to the opposite sex is hardly subjugation, for goodness sake.

But it looks like Nina is getting her "let's all ignore each other" dystopian wish. Labor force participation for men between 25 and 54 years old (that is, men who work or would like to work) is at an all-time low. And most of these non-working men claim to be quite content.

Who knew the Wall-e lifestyle of men consuming doughnuts and internet on the dole would arrive so quickly and be championed by the Ninas, no less. Hooray.

http://hotair.com/archives/2014/12/12/unexpectedly-the-new-york-times-discovers-that-some-dont-have-to-work-in-the-age-of-obama/; 12/12/14, 12:08 PM
Anonymous said...: How did she know the woman dressed up for the man?

Beautiful women dress up to feel more beautiful, plain women dress up to feel less dowdy, ugly women give up.; 12/12/14, 12:30 PM
Bushman of the Kohlrabi said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 12/12/14, 12:31 PM
Babaluigi said...: I think of clothing as either utilitarian or as costume. There are times when it is important to look a "certain way". I know what colors look good or bad on me, and what shapes and designs make me look like I have not "taken care of myself" at all (in my fight against my advancing decrepitude.) I use my stained shirts and ripped jeans for housework, yardwork, and when I am working on art projects. I tend to wear dark plain t-shirts or tank tops under cardigans with jeans otherwise as my "everyday look." I will go all day without makeup at home, and may even run to the grocery store without it if I like the way I look that day, but I will put on the makeup (and a clean shirt) and fix my hair when my husband is coming home. I feel we owe it to our mates to do our best to look good for them...that goes both ways.

...As for the people sharing a meal, who knows what is actually going on there... but it always saddens me to see a couple sitting opposite each other in total silence, one or both of them staring off into space. Again, who knows what is actually going on, but surely they have not all just come from a funeral...; 12/12/14, 12:34 PM
Lydia said...: Don't men usually dress to please women? If left to themselves, we'd end up men-in-shorts everywhere. And tank tops at the dinner table.; 12/12/14, 1:52 PM
HoodlumDoodlum said...: It's nice when everyone agrees; fashion is imporant.; 12/12/14, 2:56 PM
jr565 said...: "For better or worse (in my opinion - probably worse), women still do appear to want to please men. They want to look good for them, for instance. You can tell (and literature confirms this). Whereas I can't really recall the last time I dressed with care for Ed's benefit. Women I know back home like to look good for themselves and not necessarily for some guy's approving glance."

Textbook example of why guys cheat. Their mistresses are the ones that sound like they're interested in their stories and want to look good for their man. The wives assume that they can be indifferent and then wonder why the guy strays.
"John, I counted myself so plain, so poorly made, no honest love could come to me! Suspicion kissed you when I did; I never knew how I should say my love. It were a cold house I kept!" - Elizabeth proctor in the crucible. Damned straight.

And this goes for guys who neglect their women too.; 12/12/14, 6:30 PM
jr565 said...: What a loser Ed is.; 12/12/14, 6:36 PM
nina said...: Oh, I so knew my remarks would rattle some of you. Relax! Ed dresses with even less care for me than I do for him. In this, I think we manage just fine!; 12/12/14, 7:00 PM
jr565 said...: I was going to extend my remarks with this comparison. I was helping my mom out recently move some boxes, and she said "I forgot to say thank you for moving the boxes". And I says "there's no need." Or something to that effect. Meaning, she doesn't have to say anything, I know she's thankful. So maybe In that context Ed is just fine with his wife not dressing up for him since he knows that there is love despite that lack of effort. But, I'm not married to my mom. I was just doing her a favor. So. Not sure how well it carries over.; 12/12/14, 8:41 PM
JAORE said...: "Oh, I so knew my remarks would rattle some of you. Relax! Ed dresses with even less care for me than I do for him. In this, I think we manage just fine!"

I see. You so know some of us are rattled. You know what the man and woman in Paris are thinking. And you think you and Ed are fine about not dressing for him.

May I obtain such wisdom in the fullness of time.; 12/12/14, 11:02 PM
Bob Loblaw said...: "Women I know back home like to look good for themselves and not necessarily for some guy's approving glance..."

That's sort of true. Women she knows back home like to look good as part of a competition with other women.

I'm guessing French women are more content than American women. American women have gone to war against American men, and they're miserable as a result.; 12/13/14, 4:41 AM