October 2, 2014

"A white Ohio woman is suing a Downers Grove-based sperm bank, alleging that the company mistakenly gave her vials from an African-American donor..."

"... a fact that she said has made it difficult for her and her same-sex partner to raise their now 2-year-old daughter in an all-white community."
After searching through pages of comprehensive histories for their top three donors, the lawsuit claims, Cramblett and her domestic partner, Amanda Zinkon, chose donor No. 380, who was also white. Their doctor in Ohio received vials from donor No. 330, who is African-American, the lawsuit said.
It's not as though they don't love the baby that was born. They just didn't get the product they ordered. They have a basis for a lawsuit, but what are the damages? It's gruesome reading the allegations, which are written in what seems to be an effort to wrest as much money as possible from the sperm bank without painting the mother, Jennifer Cramblett, as an unsympathetic racist:
Cramblett was raised around people with stereotypical attitudes about nonwhites, the lawsuit states, and did not know African-Americans until she attended college at the University of Akron.

"Because of this background and upbringing, Jennifer acknowledges her limited cultural competency relative to African-Americans and steep learning curve, particularly in small, homogenous Uniontown, which she regards as too racially intolerant," the lawsuit states.

Part of that learning curve has included getting her daughter's hair cut, which according to the suit requires Cramblett to travel to a black neighborhood, "where she is obviously different in appearance, and not overtly welcome."

She fears that her "all white and unconsciously insensitive family," which has never been able to fully embrace Jennifer's homosexuality, could have a negative effect on her daughter, according to the lawsuit. Though compelled to repress her individuality amongst family members, Payton's differences are irrepressible, and Jennifer does not want Payton to feel stigmatized or unrecognized due simply to the circumstances of her birth," the lawsuit states. "Jennifer's stress and anxiety intensify when she envisions Payton entering an all-white school."
Everybody else is the racist. Cramblett just wants the best for her little girl... who never should have been born. This is a case that should have been settled quietly. I've got to guess that a settlement was offered but was deemed insufficient enough that it was worth publicizing her dismay at the "wrong" child having been born. And yet we're asked to swallow the allegation that "Jennifer does not want Payton to feel stigmatized or unrecognized." Oh, and yes, I know, it's not Jennifer's dismay. It's all those terrible people in her town and in her family... amongst whom Payton now must grow up.

136 comments:

traditionalguy said...

So give them their money back.

alan markus said...

Crack can adopt the baby - get double the reparations that way.

the wolf said...

Is it safe to assume Payton was not named after Walter Payton?

Meade said...

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: [to Igor] Now that brain that you gave me. Was it Hans Delbruck's?
Igor: [pause, then] No.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Ah! Very good. Would you mind telling me whose brain I DID put in?
Igor: Then you won't be angry?
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: I will NOT be angry.
Igor: Abby someone.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: [pause, then] Abby someone. Abby who?
Igor: Abby... Normal.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: [pause, then] Abby Normal?
Igor: I'm almost sure that was the name.

David said...

Payton's Place. Jeeez.

Emil Blatz said...

deemed insufficient enough...?

Steve Uhr said...

Whatever they get will be more than offset by the harm they will do to their child when she is old enough to know what happened.

Bruce Hayden said...

Not a lot of sympathy here. As you probably remember from previous posts, I think that lesbians raising children is a bad idea - because there is rarely a strong father figure in the household.

But, in this case, I have even less sympathy. If they had reproduced the way that humans were designed to, there wouldn't have been a problem. She would know who the father was, and would have controlled her daughter's paternity.

So, she is essentially saying "We want damages because we are racists, and willingly and consciously were discriminating on the basis of race". Not something that they should probably be proud of - except, of course, that homosexuals (and esp. lesbians) think that they are special enough, in terms of victimhood, that they don't have to live by societal norms, which in this age, means not discriminating on the basis of race.

Mark said...

Weapons-grade assholes.

furious_a said...

Jeebus, White Trash Lesbians.

I predict years of therapy in several people's future.

Ann Althouse said...

"deemed insufficient enough…?"

Think about it.

It's correct.

Assume the amount was insufficient, but factor in the horribleness of putting it in the public record that you're unhappy with the child you purport to love.

It had to be more than insufficient. It had to be insufficient enough to take the whole damned thing public and harm yourself and the child and all of your relationships.

I want to know what was offered and what she deemed insufficient enough to put this out there for us to read.

n.n said...

First, congratulations to Cramblett for making the right "choice". The baby was wholly innocent. Second, I agree with your assessment of her motivations. Exposing her child to the press suggests that she is hiding her true motives. Since she did not abort her child, it seems unlikely that she is chromaphobic.

It's odd that she would only now accuse her neighbors of a politically popular prejudice. The most likely motives are financial or experimental as in setup. With this, she can kill two birds: chromaphobia and homophobia, with one stone. From her testimony, it seems that her neighbors are not the latter, but the former.

I wonder how Zinkon feels about her partner's child. I imagine that adopting the wrong child would be stressful for the relationship. Perhaps Cramblett is not chromaphobic, but her partner is. Perhaps she feels betrayed that the child does reflect her mother and adoptive "aunt". Money and fame heels all wounds.

The normalization of the sperm bank and rent-a-womb creates more moral hazards which surviving generations will need to reconcile. Thanks, mom, mad, "aunt", and "uncle".

Michael K said...

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

Gusty Winds said...

In defense of the clinic, the actual sperm samples were both white.

Unknown said...

Well, Bruce, my daughter has two moms and she's doing just fine without a male...whatever in her life.

Studies have shown that it doesn't matter a hill of beans to have a male...whatever you called it in life.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-sexual-continuum/201006/25-year-long-study-finds-children-lesbian-parents-may-be-better-adj

So...yeah... I'm not worried and my daughter is, as her teachers often remark, happy, healthy and amazing. :) Now, to just keep her from taking folks like you seriously. THAT'S the key here.

Anonymous said...

If she bought sperm type A and got sperm type B instead, she has a right to be angry. Is it racism to want your child to look like you?
Voting for someone because he is black is just as racist as voting against someone for the same reason, isn't it?

What if the child turned out to be a dwarf (can I say that?) and that the donor was also a dwarf... would she have a case then? Isn't selecting for donor height discriminatory?

What if she was initially cool with it, but consequently stumbled onto this blog and its comments sections, read some stuff from our resident Black Person and then had a panic attack about who the dad may actually be?
Would you blame her?
What type of reparations should she expect? Would that be enough?

veni vidi vici said...

If someone's already going the designer route by going to a sperm bank, where paternity may be anonymous but characteristics like level of education, etc. are known to the selecting parent(s)-to-be, it may be socially repugnant to do what this couple is doing but it's hardly surprising or even daresay wrong. The sperm bank defendant screwed up in an unforgiveably big way, since they have created by their negligence (and let's hope this wasn't a cruel joke played on the lesbians by some nefarious asshole) a set of circumstances that is taxing if it does not ultimately destroy a family, which is the exact opposite of what young families rightly expect when they are shopping a sperm bank in the first place.

Just because the thoughts behind this suit are impolite doesn't necessarily make them wrong. After all, how many times have you seen or heard from "experts" in the adoption field up in arms about Black babies being adopted by White parents and the risk of losing their "identity" that would result therefrom? Hell, there are even deaf parents who've started a "movement" to ensure their kids are deaf rather than being given the opportunity to hear.

And yet we're upset with the mother, here? What if the couple were Black and they had a white child? Not asking whether it *should* make a difference: WOULD it make a difference?

John Lynch said...

So move to a black neighborhood, if that's a problem.

People move for their kids all the time.

I have a problem with people who say something is a problem but won't do anything to solve it. It makes me doubt that there is really a problem.

Skeptical Voter said...

That's why it's better to get pregnant the old fashioned way. That way the mother can tell who and what loaded the round in the chamber. She thought she was getting a round from the White Knight--instead she chambered a round from the Chocolate Prince. Her bad.

veni vidi vici said...

"insufficient enough" is bad grammar.

I prefer "sufficiently insufficient".

veni vidi vici said...

I'm with John Lynch. My first response was also "people move for their children/families all the time". Hell, I moved so my kid can go to a better school district; this is how it's done in America, dammit!

Jay Vogt said...

Oh what fools these mortals be . . .

John Lynch said...

It's hard to allege damage to someone who would not have existed if the mistake hadn't been made. I'm not sure how that works legally.

Freeman Hunt said...

"Of course we love you, baby. But we'd love for you to grow up with money too!"

Brando said...

Their reasoning for wanting a white kid is weak, but generally it can make sense to want to adopt a kid of your own race because then you can wait until they're older to let them know they're adopted.

Doesn't apply here of course.

sinz52 said...

"So move to a black neighborhood, if that's a problem."

If they moved to a black neighborhood, they would replace one problem with another:

Black communities are generally less tolerant of lesbian couples than liberal white communities. Even if the couple didn't walk down the street with the black child, just walking down the street while holding hands would get a lot of hostile stares.

They could, of course, move to Vermont.

All permutations are welcome there.

Lydia said...

The mother's comment re the sperm bank's responsibility (at the end of the video at the link):

This is a life you are creating, you have to take all the measures possible to make sure you get it right.

Wise words. Might have helped if she took them to heart as well and maybe reconsidered the whole designed-baby thing.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

veni vidi vici,

What if the couple were Black and they had a white child? Not asking whether it *should* make a difference: WOULD it make a difference?

If the couple were Black, they could not have had a white child, whoever's sperm was involved. A half-Black child is Black, period. Cf. the President.

Revenant said...

Ironically, the pretty much the only way they can be entitled to damages (beyond a simple refund) is if they really ARE racists. Then they could, perhaps, claim emotional distress or some such crap.

Paul said...

Why didn't she just find a excellent in health 16 kid and shack up.

I mean, I read about school teachers humping the 16 boys, or younger, just about every day in the papers.

So why didn't she just do that and save her money. Plus she would have known what she was getting.

All I can say to her is, caveat emptor.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Which means that this child is Black. I'm sorry that the lesbian couple have to go into menacing Black neighborhoods to get her hair cut, but, y'know, them's the breaks.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Paul, if you've been reading that daily, you haven't been reading the papers; you've been reading Instapundit.

Not that that's a bad thing :-)

Humperdink said...

Unknown said: "Studies have shown that it doesn't matter a hill of beans to have a male...."

OK Phyllis, let's look over the studies. Oh look, there's one with our preferred outcome. Ding, ding, ding, we have our winner.

Jupiter said...

'So, she is essentially saying "We want damages because we are racists, and willingly and consciously were discriminating on the basis of race".'

Yeah, that's right. They want a child they can go visit at college, not at a federal penitentiary. And there are no guarantees, but there are certainly some strong probabilities.

Zedediah Grimm said...

So she's a lesbian. She has sworn off men. Bats for the other team. Wouldn't have sex with a male of the species because that would be unnatural for an enlightened woman in her situation.
Then she can't resist the biological urge to have someones ball batter squeezed into her so she can have a baby the way nature intended it to be done.
And then finds out said ball batter was that inferior brown kind that is now forcing her to drive into those icky black neighborhoods to have her daughter's, (who she really loves, if only she just weren't the product of inferior building blocks) hair done putting her in imminent danger ... or something. And because of that someone has to PAY! THROUGH THE NOSE!
But she's not a racist. She has a black daughter ... who she loves ... kinda ... if she wasn't so, well, brown!
That's one fucked up white-privilege, entitled bitch.
Why didn't she just adopt a REAL white baby who was already born?
Fucking twat.

broomhandle said...


'Studies have shown that it doesn't matter a hill of beans to have a male...whatever you called it in life."

As the current state of African-American society so clearly illustrates. Not everyone's a yuppie, dearie.

Unknown said...

Humperdink: No. There are plenty of studies that show the exact same thing. I just didn't want to post a link farm. Not my job to educate folks who don't bother to keep up on their own.

Broomhandle: Oh dear, I'm sorry, did you say something about the black community and a lack of fathers...who are mostly in prison, btw. You're actually equating two loving parents and one loving parent with a child who's father is in jail. You're somehow finding equivalency there? Seriously??

Brando said...

I'm not sure what the politically correct opinion should be regarding lesbian racists.

Humperdink said...

@Unknown. I want to make sure I fully comprehend your point: not having a father figure in the household is neutral or positive in the child's upbringing. Definitely not a negative.

Is that your view?

Bob Boyd said...

Never go to the Sperm Bank at rush hour.

Left Bank of the Charles said...

Sending the wrong sperm could be the sperm bank worker equivalent of a waiter spitting in an obnoxious customer's food.

Does the sperm donor have a claim? He was led to believe that his sperm would be going to loving couples, not this. I'm sure that would cause considerable mental anguish.

jr565 said...

Were supposed to accept her lesbianism, but she can't accept a black baby?

Unknown said...

Humperdink: My view is that having two loving and nurturing (emotionally and materially) parents in the house is ideal, but it is not required to grow up healthy (mentally and physically).

Studies bear this out repeatedly.

Now, does that take into account the personalities of some children that would benefit more or less by having one or both genders in their lives? Of course not. That's a nuance that is entirely based on individuals' own needs.

And remember this, there are TONS of folks all over this country raised in single parent homes with NO father or NO mother present at all, and an overwhelming majority of them do just fine. (Hell, some even end up as president.) :)

So, making the claim that kids NEED a father is pretty much bogus. Would it be nice? Sure, but other than the sperm, it's not required for emotional and physical health.

Fernandinande said...

"We provide a Sperm Donor Selection List which includes each donor's race, blood type, height, weight, hair color, eye color, ethnicity, education, and profession. For each sperm donor we also have available an extensive profile. The profile includes additional information on the donor's medical history, personal information such as hobbies, interests, favorite subjects in school, family traits, and for most donors a description of family members and their occupations and interests. We include a "kid Page" where the donor describes his childhood."

++
This is Salon, so grain of salt:


A Calgary fertility clinic would like you to know that it no longer requires clients to limit themselves to choosing donors of similar ethnicities to their own. Any more.

Humperdink said...

"And remember this, there are TONS of folks all over this country raised in single parent homes with NO father or NO mother present at all, and an overwhelming majority of them do just fine. (Hell, some even end up as president.) :)"

Sorry, this paragraph does not support your argument. In addition to being a narcissist, he is a pathological liar. (BTW, I was notified my health insurance is being cancelled at the end of the year. Had it for 20 years.)

But back to your point, "TONS?" Your speaking in platitudes. The jury is still out on lesbian parents, as it is a fairly recent phenomena *cough*.

"So, making the claim that kids NEED a father is pretty much bogus." The lack of fathers in the inner city has led to a new father figure - street gangs. To argue otherwise is just wrong.

Krumhorn said...

While there are a number of studies that make the assertions that Unknown has made, there has a been a considerable criticism of the statistical samples and preference and confirmation bias of those doing the studies.

In sharp contrast and certainly not free of criticism, The New Family Structures Study written by Regnerus and published in Social Science Research takes a sharply different view of the outcome. And that study has its own share of academic support.

So it is far from a settled matter.

- Krumhorn

Joe said...

I find the whole sperm bank thing creepy as hell.

Not only are recipients accepting sperm from someone anonymous, that someone is narcissistic enough to jerk off into a cup so they can create a baby for which they bear no responsibility.

American Liberal Elite said...

The defendants (if one accepts the facts alleged) breached, and money damages are appropriate. But I agree with Steve Uhr. The harm to the child outweighs any possible benefit from the lawsuit.

madAsHell said...

I'll bet they voted for Obama because he's half-black!!

madAsHell said...

Maybe half-black babies are no longer fashionable because.....Obama is incompetent.

Carol said...

I can't believe people really gave them shit about a mulatto baby..people in Montana wouldn't have. No one cares anymore. There are mulatto babies all over the place. BFD. Unless some contact with ohio's ghetto has created a class of neoracists..always a possibility.

rcocean said...

Crack doesn't seem to be biting on this particular piece of "Crack-bait".

Too bad, because this is one thread that he'd improve. I can't decide what's more ridiculous, Lesbians having kids, sperm banks for lesbians, a sperm bank mixing up a black and white donor, or the 2 mommies wanting mucho dinero because of Ohio racism (other people's of course).

Have they booked their Jerry Springer appearance yet?

rcocean said...

As for complaining about lesbians having kids without a father - given the illegitimacy rate in the USA, it sounds absurd!

I'm sure the kid is better off with 2 mommies than 1 mommy and a deadbeat dad.

Phil 3:14 said...

At some point in the not-to-distant-future a similar couple will sue because the sperm didn't have the gay gene.

Paul said...

Michelle,

Sure I read Instapundent, I admit that weakness, that and the Drudge Report, but I click the news paper articles he refers to.

Honestly, and I also read the articles in Playboy.

Only thing I find about the teaches and their charges that is disturbing is... why didn't they pick on ME when I was 15?

And this Lesbian could have just found some handsome one-night-stand thing and went bareback or mactavish or whatever the term is nowdays.

broomhandle said...

70% of Black men are in jail? Dang, a brother can't catch a break in this cracker country.

Anonymous said...

All-white schools and the "small, homogenous Uniontown, which she regards as too racially intolerant": sounds like she was pretty comfortable with all of this when she was expecting a WHITE baby. Now people might look at her and think -- Horror! -- that she had sex with a black man! Crazy white people...

It is turtles all the way down...

Saint Croix said...

Don't be a splooge stooge.

Don't get the beaver fever.

Don't be a womb doom.

Bruce Hayden said...

Unknown - sorry, but lacking a father in the house has long been known to be bad for the kids. All you need to do is look at the prison population, which was predominantly raised fatherless. You can pretend differently, but as was pointed out above, the young males in lower economic (and esp Black) communities, where a significant majority of the kids are illegitimate, and raised without fathers, is significantly more dangerous than anywhere else in this country (in places worse than an actual war zone) because of the boys running in juvenile packs, instead of getting properly socialized. And these fatherless boys get fatherless girls pregnant (out of wedlock), guaranteeing the next generation of dysfubctional residents. These boys, who grew up in gangs, tend to either end up dead or in prison.

Unknown said...

Humperdink: The discussion isn't about Obama or your health care. I was actually thinking of Clinton when I wrote it, but regardless. The point is amply and accurately made. Being raised without a father is not a requirement. It just isn't.

The problem in the black community with fatherless homes has a great deal to do with the environment, economics, WHY the fathers are not there, culture, education, violence and such. To peg the problem on just not having a dad around is just asinine. Simply because those problems are not replicated elsewhere with similar fatherlessness. So, it stands to reason that what's happening in the black community is not merely single-mother homes.

And your argument is merely simplistic. No dad = icky life. That's the essence of your argument. It's a shallow assessment at best and again, not replicated uniformly. Therefore, there must be something more complicated going on in the black community.

Sorry, I had to explain the point twice, but I didn't get the sense that you got it the first time.

n.n said...

It seems that sperm deposit can be handled as an over-the-counter transaction. Perhaps a drive-through, which would reduce the chance of filling the wrong womb, and facilitate returning womb-holders to taxable activities.

The bank metaphor would be more aptly applied to womb-holders. Where deposits can be made, earn interest, then when an account matures can be withdrawn or liquidated by the depositor. Perhaps as a planned investment in a stem cell factory.

The OTC or drive-through deposits, and womb-banks, can be federally regulated to ensure diversity of colors, fluidity, girth, IQ, etc. I think there was a movie which promoted this concept. I bet no one expected that fantasy would be realized in their lifetime.

Unknown said...

Bruce, you're making the same mistake Humperdink is. So, my last response is to you as well.

John Lynch said...

Unknown is nuts. Look at our upper class and you'll see a bunch of married people.

Look at the lower class and you see a bunch of unmarried people.

Grow up. Pay attention!

Jane the Actuary said...

Read this yesterday. Agree with pretty much everyone commenting.

Bonus information: from what I can tell, it was her and the doctor's fault just as much as the sperm bank. The vials were labelled, but they didn't read the labels. 7 times they didn't read the labels. They only read the label on the 8th, leftover vial, after learning about the mixup, in order to confirm it.

http://janetheactuary.blogspot.com/2014/10/when-children-are-commodities.html

Unknown said...

John, I'm just telling you what studies show about gay couples, and I'm nuts?

LOL... Ok... Whatever.

n.n said...

John Lynch:

No, Unknown is arguing against evolution. There is a natural order and an ego order. With the progressive popularity of sperm deposits, and womb-banks, there is room for experimentation. So we have single mothers and fathers. It's probably not a coincidence that heterosexual relationships were first attacked to create tension and conflict between men and women.

As we are all well aware, human life is a commodity until it is arbitrarily assigned value. And in our enlightened society, that exclusive right has been granted to the womb-holder. The womb-holder may allow the deposit to mature or liquidate (i.e. abort) the investment at any time after the deposit is made until some time around maturity, which is typically accompanied with a penalty for premature withdrawal.

Anyway, the terms of the experiment are much clearer with the appropriate metaphors. So with a banking metaphor, the male is reduced to a depositor, and the female is reduced to a womb-holder.

That said, evolutionary principles are applicable to a class, not necessarily a species. That is to say, it is selective. Let the intra-species war... I mean, experiment, continue. And people thought wars and abortion were the limits of human ingenuity.

Roger Zimmerman said...

I would point out to Unkown and. Humperdink&Bruce that their is no logical contradiction in both of their viewpoints being true: It is certainly possible that having a reliable father around not be _necessary_ for the health and well being of all children while, at the same time, being the cause of better outcomes, on average, for children as a population.

Of course, even if the literature shows correlations that support the latter hypothesis, it is very hard in this kind of social science to tease out all of the factors that would then lead to a conclusion of causality. In the former (Unknown's) case it is much easier to identify strong parenting skills (and a good relationship) on the part of the two mothers as being beneficial in a particular child's case. I'm sure that's a big part of why Unknown's daughter is doing well.

Humperdink said...

Unknown. Anytime someone starts (and finishes) their argument with "studies show", my antennae goes up.

"Unemployment benefits are creating jobs faster than practically any other program." (Nobel Economic Prize winner Nancy Pelosi)

And I'll bet she has a study to back it up.

Anonymous said...

"Amanda?"

"Yes, honey?"

"You know, it's been two years since I had our baby Payton and.."

"And?"

"You haven''t -- you know --"

"Know what?"

"Well, you haven't gone down on me since then."

"I didn't realize you were counting."

"I wasn't counting... and it's not hard to keep count when the number is zero. Do you not find me attractive anymore? I know I put on some weight after the baby..."

"It's not the weight, Jennifer..."

"Well, what is it, then? Is there something I can do?

"I still find you attractive, Jennifer, it's... it's... I don't want to talk about it."

"You don't want to talk about it? I thought the foundation of our very relationship was the ability to talk to each other about anything and everything, that we had no secrets to hide, from ourselves or society..."

"Yeah, I remember that. It's just that -- when I'm down between your pale white thighs you I can't help but see your vagina and think: A BLACK BABY came from there! Right from THERE -- a BLACK BABY! I try not to think that, but BLACK BABY BLACK BABY! I swear, sometimes I think I can see Payton's eyes in there, staring at me, questioning me -- BLACK BABY! Please don't misunderstand --"

"--Goodness - this is a lot to process --"

"--I love your daughter of which I am also a parent, but: BLACK BABY BLACK BABY BLACK BABY BLACK BABY!"

"I know it's been a difficult time -- "

"Your vagina! WHITE VAGINA BLACK BABY! WHITE VAGINA BLACK BABY! I can't stop these thoughts..."


"Amanda, is this why you are hiding a giant rubber black cock in the closet?

"You know about that?"

"I saw it when I was looking paranoically through your belongs..."

"BLACK COCK! BLACK RUBBER COCK!"

"Maybe we can get... ...help..."

"Help with BLACK BABY BLACK RUBBER COCK? Help? What can anyone do? BLACK BABY, baby, BLACK BABY BLACK RUBBER COCK, from your Ladyparts, your delicate white Ladyparts -- BLACK BABY! LABIA! LABIA! BLACK BABY!"

"Maybe we can sue..."

"LABIA! LAWYER! LAWYER! LABIA!..."


Unknown said...

Humperdink: well, I posted one for you and if you want to educate yourself more, there are plenty of studies.

Since you discard studies, there's little to talk about, I guess. I can tell you my experience with my daughter, but that's anecdotal. And you'll likely criticize that as well on those grounds. So, dead end.

So, find out what you want to. Or not. It's of little consequence.

tim in vermont said...

If I was the kid, I would sue the company for giving me to such shitty parents.

Titus said...

you stupid oldies are going to be dead soon, thank the lord.

The country has changed, I know it's devastating, but get over it geezers.

tits.

Anonymous said...

Krumhorn wrote;

"So it is far from a settled matter."

Does it matter that it isn't settled science?

It's not about what's good for the children for people like Unknown. Instead, it's about them and what they want.

Unknown said...

Roger...thank you. Very well put. :)

I didn't think of them as being one or the other either.

My daughter is doing well because we're very active parents in her emotional/physical well-being, she has great classmates (three other children in her class also have same sex parents) and she has deep bonds with our extended family. She lives in a mostly safe and nurturing world at the moment.

And I think that's the key, regardless of whether you have a mom/dad, mom/mom, dad/dad, only mom, or only dad. And for Humperdink and the rest, that is what the studies seem to conclude.

Anyway, again, thank you Roger for making the point so succinctly. :)



Titus said...

A bicycle rider stopped his bike tonight, while I was walking the rare climber, and sucked my hog.

He was white, which is unusual.

Last year he was the captain of the Harvard Swim team, when he asked my age, I told him, and he gasped, but is now texting me to meet again. I am like not tomorrow morning-I need a break.

We settled on Saturday night. We are making plans right now and he just told me he doesn't drive-hot.

tits.

Titus said...

I just told him I am 4 blocks from the T and I will leave my door open, be naked, and he can blow me on the spot.....no talking natch.

Is that hot or what?

tootles.

Humperdink said...

@Unknown. Dead end is correct.

To you, it's a done deal, everything fine and dandy.

It's a bit early for that pronouncement.

Titus said...

Now he is begging for dick pics but I don't do that---I have some limits.

Peggy Coffey said...

My daughter is married to a black man and their children are mixed. They are growing up in an all white, upper middle class neighborhood (father attorney, mother architect) with no problem. It doesn't matter to other children and if it matters to the parents, they haven't seen it. These people are doing it for the money, nothing else. America elected a half black president, no one cares anymore.

Humperdink said...

Titus, there is a reason us geezers have made to geezerdom.

Titus said...

While I am texting to the Harvard Swim Team Captain I am jerking on cam with my chaterbate husband from Montenegro. They are fucking hot in Montenegro!

I multi task.

tits.

n.n said...

Roger Zimmerman:

Why is it easier to conclude "strong parenting skills (and a good relationship)" with two women than a man and woman?

That hypothesis begins with a bias that child-rearing benefits are principally conferred by the mother.

Are you basing your assumption on the modern reinterpretation of the traditional role of motherhood divorced from fatherhood?

Meade said...

Titus, be careful. Your swim team blower guy could secretly save your sperms and sell them to some hapless lesbians who wind up suing you for child support and taking you to the cleaners. Suddenly you're poor, old, and sad. Message: I care.

Meade said...

You won't even get to name your son. They'll probably name him something like Dave. Dave Cramblett - Zinkon. And they'll complain about him being too white.

So please be careful, ti.

rcocean said...

It'd be sad if Titus had a white son and not a Gay half-Indian High Tech super-rich son who lived in New England who had GREAT!! sex with his fabulous dogs while living a $5 million Condo, next to a Kennedy, or at least Andrew Sullivan.

rcocean said...

It'd be even sadder if his name was Titus Gopnik. I mean, how white is that?

chillblaine said...

"...Jennifer does not want Payton to feel stigmatized..."

Pretty sure that will be dwarfed by the stigma of being the turkey-baster offspring of two lesbians, and never knowing her father.

glenn said...

Well, there is just this one thing. The kid will the oly brother at school with a kale salad and a yogurt in his sack lunch. And the other kids will be POed because he didn't bring something with soul.

rcocean said...

Where is Crack?

iowan2 said...
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iowan2 said...

Fatherless, or motherless homes are not the best way to raise humans. Can it be done? Sure. But it is NOT the best for the child.
I saw a kid on TV last week, four years old with one arm that golfs...well. Bears can be taught to ride a bicycle. But If I'm going to spend $20 million fielding a Tour de Force team, there wont be any bears on it.
You confuse possible with optimal. I'm sure your daughter is wonderful, but even you would not counsel her to raise your grand children without a father, a man committed to her and her children .(that's the real self test for yourself) Its a sign of a selfish parent and an unnecessary burden on the children.

RecChief said...
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Anonymous said...

" I'm sure that's a big part of why Unknown's daughter is doing well."

I have a feeling unknown's daughter hasn't yet hit puberty.

When she does hit puberty, having not had a father in her life, she will no longer be doing well. But that's ok, there are lot's of medications, self help groups, alcohol, suicide lines (And Christians to blame if she does commit suicide) porn video's to shoot, street corners to walk and did I mention, medications?

But that's alright, she was just a one off, I'm sure. Girls don't need a dad. Right?

RecChief said...

well, she obviously is, but at least the kid will be able to get into college.

Unknown said...

Eric, you're quite the Kreskin. What are the lottery numbers for tomorrow?

Alex said...

I can't help but feel the hilarity welling up inside. The sheer irony of this is so delicious.

Kirk Parker said...

Unk,

Yeah, for certain values of "just fine".

And if your remark about presidents means you think WJBC or BHO are "just fine", then I sure don't want to run into any people you think didn't grow up "just fine".

Gene said...

It seems to me that any woman has a right (even if she uses a sperm bank) to have a child of her own race. I can't imagine Michelle Obama being too happy if one of her kids were switched at birth and she ended up with a white kid instead. If this woman is looking for money though she's not going to get any. No jury will want to go on record as saying you deseve big bucks for having to take a black kid.

cubanbob said...

It wouldn't be the first wrongful birth case.

The Crack Emcee said...

This isn't a race issue:

They ordered 330 and got 380.

That's a caae
case,...

The Crack Emcee said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dale Light said...

Living in the deep South in the early 60s I heard this argument commonly made wrt interracial marriage. "It's not that I think it's wrong -- I just worry about the children. They will have such hard lives." In other words, "I'm not a racist, but I oppose race mixing because other people are." It was a sick argument back then, and it still is, no matter who makes it -- and that includes members of designated "victim" groups.

Humperdink said...

@Unknown. I am somewhat surprised former Commander-in-Heat WJBC is your gold standard for a well adjusted adult raised by a single mom.

Do the names Willey, Jones, Broderick, Lewnisky, Flowers and Gracen ring any bells? Note the offenses and how they relate to no father figure.

Anonymous said...

Good thing the parents aren't conservatives or libertarians. If they were they'd be publicly condemned as ignorant racists trying to make a few easy bucks at the expense of a child's dignity. As it is I hope this kid gets sent to a good boarding school where she won't be at the constant mercy of the cruel whims of these deranged harpies.

Renee said...

"We're very active parents in her emotional/physical well-being, she has great classmates (three other children in her class also have same sex parents)"


Wasn't there just an article that being too active on parenting harms the relationship??

Same-sex homes are no different then step-parent homes. Sure there are great stepparents, but we don't turn a blind eye that the child not having the other parent.


When I hear these statements, it sounds like overcompensating for what is lost.

Now... You could be a gay aunt, and the child is suffering from trauma of mom being dead/on drugs/ or jail. Compensation in being active is justified, but if a child is a surrogate/sperm or bad adoption practices (baby selling) then over compensation is about looking good as a parent.

The thing is when your bio mom and dad are in healthy /marriage, the parents and kids never worry about emotional/physical well-being....

My kids are kids.

Unknown said...

One word: Ohio. Nuff said. What can you do with people who don't drink?

A lesbian looking down on a black...that's funny.

Poor kid.

Unknown said...

You know what would be interesting? If Clinton had raped, assaulted, abused, exploited, whatever, a lesbian. "No" didn't stop him with those others. Why would "No, I don't like cock" stop him? What, unknown lesbian, did he only take advantage of the @right@ women, is that why you like him?

Clyde said...

Live by the turkey baster, die by the turkey baster...

Humperdink said...

It's a good thing Clinton chose politics as a profession over, say .... the NFL.

MadisonMan said...

A good parent would take steps to prevent harm from coming to their child. That includes moving. We moved back to WI because we didn't want our kid #1 growing up on the East Coast.

So rather than, say, moving the child to a place where she might fit in (And I, like others, question exactly how bad it is in the lesbians' home town, and wonder how much of this is left over from growing up and never having been dealt with), these parents want money?

Completely wrong way to go about this IMO.

MadisonMan said...

Studies have shown

Nothing is more facile than to start a sentence like that, btw.

Maybe there's hyperbole in my statement, but only some.

Shanna said...

Whatever they get will be more than offset by the harm they will do to their child when she is old enough to know what happened.

This. Reading that snippet above is just brutal. You are afraid to go to the black part of town to get a haircut?

I feel sorry for their child, with them as parents.

Peter said...

"It's not as though they don't love the baby that was born."

That word "love" is endlessly plastic, isn't it?

If the baby were a consumer product then they could just return it for one that's the right color.

But it's not, is it? Since babies are not consumer products, the suit should be tossed. The only remaining question is whether they are fit to raise the child.

Unknown said...

Really Humperdink? Ok, let me explain...MORE...

I did not think of Clinton or even Obama as examples of fine adjusted men who lived stellar lives...who happened to also be raised in single mother homes. (That said, in Obama's case, even though I think he's a political moron and I hate his beliefs, there's NO indication that he cheats on Michelle, that he's a shit ass father or that he's somehow horrible as a human being. So, I even though I cannot stand him as president, it's idiotic to hold that against him while evaluating his psychological fitness.)

What I was saying is that you can achieve. Quite spectacularly. So well in fact that you can become president of the US.

Make sense?

Unknown said...

Humperdink: Then again, I also could have mentioned George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Andrew Jackson as well.

They all came from single mother homes. Who knows if they were maladjusted. I'm sure in their times, no one really gave two shits one way or another.

We seem to be obsessed by it though. Well, if it has to do with lesbians, gays or someone else we deem...EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK...abnormal!!!

Unknown said...

Renee, we are very involved in her emotional/psychological upbringing because...we're parents. Shocking I know, but we care about her and how she develops. So, while we don't go all helicopter on her, we consider her emotional/psychological well being when we make choices that we have to make as parents.

For example, when choosing her donor, we chose one that was happy to be contacted. If she wanted to contact him, we wanted her to have that option. When she was little, we joined a group of her half-sibs. So, she knows about 12 of her half sibs and their parents. We meet up every year. We chose schools based on their record, because we want her to get a good education. We chose sitters that wouldn't just plunk her down at the TV and go talk on the phone. We wanted her to have fun instead.

Then again, maybe we've gone too far... Eeeeek!

Curious George said...

Dear Lesbian: The baby is not in your "stomach". Unless of course you ate it. Which actually wouldn't surprise me.

Humperdink said...

Hey, Clintstone was your example, not mine.

Achievement and character are two different attributes.

BTW, I did a study on this issue and your are wrong. My sample size was one.

Unknown said...

Humperdink: I cannot speak to your research prowess. I found more than one.

And I stand by using Clinton. He's an example of someone from a single mother home who achieved. Pretty simple.

gerry said...

This is the modern slave trade.

Want a baby, SSA couples? Buy one.

It's a shame your property didn't work out.

Anglelyne said...

It's gruesome reading the allegations...

If by "gruesome", you mean "grimly hilarious", why, yes, yes it is.

The whole situation is a huge stinking pile of wrong, and yet somehow the primary wrong here is supposed to found in the absolute non-sin of someone's perfectly normal, human, innocuous desire to have a child like themselves. That this clusterfuck has its ultimate origin in a belief that we're entitled to get what we want because we want it, no matter what, well, let's not think about that. Projecting, transferring, and witch-hunting -isms and -phobias is more fun and requires a lot less thought..

But the mother falling all over herself to transfer her "racism" to other people, well, one would have to have a heart of stone, as the man said...

If only the Revolution could eat its own without forcing hapless children to watch.

Francisco D said...

I know three (hetero) White professional couples who adopted Black or mixed race kids. The kids turned out great and everyone was happy about the decision.

This couple needs therapy to deal with the situation.

Its not like LL Bean sending you a black sweater when you ordered a blue one.

MadisonMan said...

(Where's the Lawsuits I hope will fail tag?)

Meade said...

The Uniontown, Ohio public library needs to get a copy of the book, Heather Has Two Races on the shelf pronto.

Alex said...

Who knew that white lesbians could be racist? Race is thicker than ideology...

Fen said...

So the "tolerate my lifestyle!" lesbians are intolerant of a mixed-race baby.

gerry said...

So the "tolerate my lifestyle!" lesbians are intolerant of a mixed-race baby.

And the odds are that it's straight.

The Crack Emcee said...

Alex,

"Who knew that white lesbians could be racist?"

Black people.

I keep telling y'all the problem is whites, but y'all still insist it's Democrats, or Republicans, or anyone else whites can hope to look to, in order to avoid the mirror.

"Race is thicker than ideology..."

It's America's biggest and most important issue, being toyed with by whites, like a cat with a dead mouse. As Ann pointed out, listen to these two lesbians trying to play the angles:

What makes them different than the racists who devised schemes to keep blacks from voting, back-in-the-day, and now?

Nothing. These are whites thinking about race (which they'll deny) but only to use it for scheming. They're as disgusting as those they complain about. Hell, they ARE those they complain about.

How whites would think lesbianism would prevent racism against blacks they will have to answer themselves:

Whites is whites,...

gerry said...

As it is I hope this kid gets sent to a good boarding school where she won't be at the constant mercy of the cruel whims of these deranged harpies.

I just hope the teachers leave her alone.

Alex said...

I bow down to the ultimate wisdom of Crack Master.

All hail Crack!

Anonymous said...

Jodie Foster was widely rumored to have chosen the sperm of a PhD scientist with a 160 IQ. I'm wondering what would have happened if she had gotten an average IQ donor because of clerical error.

Alleged quote from link: "I'm not trying to be a snob by trying so hard to have a smart baby. I just want the best for my child. I know it's much easier to go through life if you're an intelligent and curious person."

wildswan said...

This is racism because she isn't saying "this is not the contract" she is saying "this is distressing." In the Fifties there might have been a real major difficulties due to segregation. But that's over and anyhow now there are mixed race children everywhere. There must be others in that town or nearby who are having good lives. I think she shouldn't be allowed to collect on racism.

Meade said...

"I think she shouldn't be allowed to collect on racism."

I think she should. But she needs to get in the back of the line behind every black American descended from an enslaved African woman who was wrongly inseminated by whites. After those reparations are completed, these two Ohio women can make their case.

I Have Misplaced My Pants said...

What a strange case. To publicly argue that you were wronged because someone caused you to have a biracial child, because a biracial child is such a horrible thing.

After I got over my surprise my attitude would immediately change to, "We wouldn't change one single solitary thing about this incredible gift from God."

And for the record, my adopted son is biracial and no one, in fact, gives a shit. And anyone who does give a shit has the problem and can kiss my ass. But in the five years of his life no one has ever treated him or us in an identifiably negative way.

But I can't speak for the racial attitudes in Ohio.

I just live in Texas where no one cares what your background is or the color of your skin--just whether you're an asshole or not.

Fernandinande said...

SOJO said...
Jodie Foster was widely rumored to have chosen the sperm of a PhD scientist with a 160 IQ. I'm wondering what would have happened if she had gotten an average IQ donor because of clerical error.


It would be hard to tell if anything had happened due to regression to the mean, and because the result is randomly distributed: the average kid of two parents with 160 IQs would have an IQ about 136.

So, e.g., for n = 4 (parental midpoint of 160 -- very smart parents!), the mean for the kids would be 136 with only a few percent chance of any kid to surpass 160 (requires +2 SD fluctuation). For n = 3 (parental midpoint of 145) the mean for the kids would be 127 and the probability of exceeding 145 less than 10 percent.

Roger Zimmerman said...

n.n.

I was talking about identifying causality in a particular family case, explicitly contrasting this with a population-level approach, as you seem to be assuming in your question.