Althouse: "To me, bad teachers don’t do anybody any good. So the unions need to recognize that parents are not going to stand for it anymore."

September 1, 2014

"To me, bad teachers don’t do anybody any good. So the unions need to recognize that parents are not going to stand for it anymore."

Said Whoopi Goldberg today, Labor Day.

94 comments:

Sam L. said...: WELL! This is so...unexpected! And encouraging!; 9/1/14, 3:24 PM
cubanbob said...: Somebody get Whoopie the message that the teacher's unions don't exist to provide the kids a better education. Why if the dots ever connect in her head she would find herself in the horrible position of supporting Governor Scott Walker if he ever ran for President. At least he would be the one candidate that would have real credibility with dealing with the teacher's unions. Imagine that, a Republican candidate that would tackle education problems not only by throwing more money at the incompetents but by making it easier to get rid of the incompetents.; 9/1/14, 3:33 PM
Gahrie said...: The problem is, the parents will stand for it. Many of them don't give a shit.; 9/1/14, 3:43 PM
Hagar said...: I wish everybody would quit jumping on the teachers. Teachers are generally good people, though somewhat given to gullibility where their profession is concerned.

It is the system that is whacky.

The people who taught the teachers are another matter. For them, tar and feathers and "riding the rail" is too good.

As for unions, yeah, but believe me, the teachers do need protection against the local school boards.

I can remember from a long time ago, the National Education Association, NEA, proclaimed itself as a professional association. They were reluctant to stand up for their members, so AFT, the American Teachers Federation, was formed and made no bones about being a union. That cut into NEA's dues collection, so they joined the parade, and here we are.; 9/1/14, 3:45 PM
Anonymous said...: We can only wish it were so.; 9/1/14, 3:48 PM
cubanbob said...: @Hagar it would be an improvement if teachers were required to have one or more undergraduate majors in subjects like mathematics, english or others and have a certification in pedagogy.; 9/1/14, 4:00 PM
David said...: If the parents had control of the situation, they might not stand for it, but in far too many cases they do not have control. And by control I do not mean day today control of the schools. Control in this context means that the consumers of the education have a viable way to express their needs and desires, and that the school system gives predominant (though not exclusive) weight to the objectives of the parents.; 9/1/14, 4:02 PM
retired said...: The local school boards are pussy cats. In an open market teachers would choose where they work and wouldn't need a union any more than programmers need one.; 9/1/14, 4:03 PM
YoungHegelian said...: So, it's taken until now for the Democrats to notice that public schools are a wreck, due in part to teachers' unions?

Wow, how observant!

It'll be interesting to watch the blue on blue warfare as this unfolds. School systems, not just teachers, mind you, are a large part of the patronage system by which urban Democratic machines provide jobs to (their often minority) constituents, which in turn funnel money back to the party. Democrats who go after incompetent state & local government are going to find themselves in a pickle come election time. These are not folks who take having a target on their back lightly.; 9/1/14, 4:10 PM
Hagar said...: And they have made Arne Duncan, a student of Bill Ayers', Secretary of Education. We have bigger troubles than just the AFT/NEA combine.; 9/1/14, 4:17 PM
Bruce Hayden said...: You can almost hear the fracturing of the Dem coalition that has been winning them elections since they first figured out how to buy elections by bribing voters from the public purses.

Moreover, Blacks are discovering that they are really small players at the Dem table. The teachers have more power because they are willing to contribute a lot of time and money to electing Dem politicians. And, Blacks are going to vote for Dems anyway, so just send Holder to Ferguson, and be happy with your failing schools.; 9/1/14, 4:17 PM
Hagar said...: Should I bring up that 85%± of public school system employees are female?

A situation that most certainly would not be tolerated if the percentages were reversed!

And, I don't think it is good for the kids.; 9/1/14, 4:23 PM
somefeller said...: Unsurprising to anyone paying attention whose knowledge of liberalism extends beyond what's discussed on Fox & Friends. The issue of education reform is the biggest domestic policy split in the current Democratic coalition, with parents whose careers come from having strong educational credentials (you know, the people Sarah Palin calls eeleetist because of their book larnin') being less sympathetic to the concerns of teachers unions. The Adrian Fenty election in DC a couple of years ago had a lot to do with this. But once again, you had to be paying attention.; 9/1/14, 4:24 PM
traditionalguy said...: Aren't bad teachers part of the Common Corpse?; 9/1/14, 4:28 PM
mccullough said...: Wealthy liberals send their kids to private schools. Judge them by their actions, not their words.; 9/1/14, 4:40 PM
Michael K said...: "Unsurprising to anyone paying attention whose knowledge of liberalism extends beyond what's discussed on Fox & Friends"

Some of us are easily nauseated.

Teachers' unions are OK in a world where vouchers are universal. They are like vampires and garlic.
Or daylight.

Louisiana is an interesting experiment. We'll see how the unions do.; 9/1/14, 4:41 PM
JML said...: Hagar, when generally good people allow generally bad people to lead them, we get Obamacare.... I mean when generally good people elect bad people to represent them, they deserve to get it from them good and hard... Mencken I'm not... Here is a true story from my substitution teaching days: The local teacher's union rep, a 7th grade teacher, was complaining about the lack of discipline and accountability in children and parents, especially because of all the single mother's in the district. I said "Isn't it ironic that the party that has done the most to undermine family life and encourage single parent households is the same party you are campaigning for at every election." She looked at me real hard and said, "There are always trade-offs."; 9/1/14, 4:50 PM
cubanbob said...: "Unsurprising to anyone paying attention whose knowledge of liberalism extends beyond what's discussed on Fox & Friends"

What does liberalism have to offer in terms of knowledge except what not to do? Tell us again how and what has the US Dept of Education actually done to improve education? Perhaps its unsurprising that a viewer of the usual liberal media would have such a view of conservatives and small government proponents.; 9/1/14, 5:07 PM
SomeoneHasToSayIt said...: Come on, people. Fixing this is not hard.

'Bad teachers' are only a problem because the schools are a government run monopoly. Monopolies ALWAYS lead to this sort of thing.

Whatever is tried to 'fix it', if it leaves the monopoly in place, is doomed to failure. And wishing it weren't so, is beyond foolish.

A free market would would fix things so fast you would be astonished.; 9/1/14, 5:16 PM
FullMoon said...: somefeller said
"...(you know, the people Sarah Palin calls eeleetist because of their book larnin') "

Haha. My blue collar skills sometimes put me into 20 or 30 Silicon Valley homes a weak. Many eeleetist larned hi-educated were some of the most ignorant dumb ass people I ever met.
They would ask the stupidest questions imaginable. I had to use small words and talk slow. Of course some others actually were intelligent as well as educated.
Kind of like commenters here I guess.

I actually worked for a nice woman engineer who wrote technical manuals for submarines,AND knew how to use apostrophes correctly. Can't get much smarter than that.; 9/1/14, 5:20 PM
YoungHegelian said...: @somefeller,

The Adrian Fenty election in DC a couple of years ago had a lot to do with this. But once again, you had to be paying attention.

And, pray tell, dear somefeller, what happened to Adrian Fenty come re-election time? And, Michelle Rhee, even before that?

We're aware that this is an issue that divides the Democratic coalition, and has since the time of D.P. Moynihan. What I don't think you take seriously enough is how often reformers lose (just like Fenty), and what this says about the nature of the Democratic coalition.; 9/1/14, 5:35 PM
Sorun said...: The Adrian Fenty election in DC a couple of years ago had a lot to do with this. But once again, you had to be paying attention."

Oh yeah? Something happened a couple of year ago? How interesting.; 9/1/14, 5:43 PM
Sorun said...: I would have expected she'd say, "bad teachers don't do nobody any good" but I have alway have low expectation... I don't know why.; 9/1/14, 5:46 PM
somefeller said...: What I don't think you take seriously enough is how often reformers lose (just like Fenty), and what this says about the nature of the Democratic coalition.

It says that in politics, people fight for power and someone has to lose. News at 11. In this case, obviously it remains to be seen which side will prevail or if it even will be a clear win or loss for a given side rather than some working compromise. Democratic reformers don't hate teachers, unions or public schools in general so the tone differs a bit than that from conservatives. Also, the current situation differs from prior decades due to the movement of knowledge workers / professionals to the Democrats, as pointed out by observers like Ruy Teixeira and John Judis.; 9/1/14, 5:57 PM
Unknown said...: (you know, the people Sarah Palin calls eeleetist because of their book larnin')

You know the people who send their precious highly advanced children to St Anselm or Brookfield Academy or Andover Prep where they can be taught to feel genuine care for minorities at a distance.

Hypocrites.; 9/1/14, 6:01 PM
Unknown said...: Democratic reformers don't hate teachers, unions or public schools in general so the tone differs a bit than that from conservatives.

Bull-tocky. When the knives come out the Democratic reformers will be just as demonized as Scott Walker was. The tone coming from the hypocritical, lying left will be nothing but hostility and hatred.; 9/1/14, 6:03 PM
Robert Cook said...: As I can't find another blog post here pertaining to Labor Day, I'll post this here:

Labor's Demise is America's Demise; 9/1/14, 6:04 PM
Unknown said...: Here's some fellers quieter tone and collegial approach to reform.

Delegates at the California Democratic Party convention overwhelmingly passed a resolution blasting Democrats who support school reform as fronts for Republicans and corporate interests, reports the Los Angeles Times.

- See more at: http://www.joannejacobs.com/2013/04/california-dems-censure-school-reformers/#sthash.bG96xZNz.dpuf

“Let’s be perfectly clear,” he added. “These organizations are backed by moneyed interests, Republican operatives and out-of-state Wall Street billionaires dedicated to school privatization and trampling on teacher and worker rights.” - See more at: http://www.joannejacobs.com/2013/04/california-dems-censure-school-reformers/#sthash.bG96xZNz.dpuf; 9/1/14, 6:06 PM
MadisonMan said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/1/14, 6:08 PM
MadisonMan said...: The only good that bad teachers do is to a Union's bottom line because even bad teachers pay dues.

There should be a law that bad teachers cannot pay Union Dues. We'd quickly see Unions trying to get rid of them.; 9/1/14, 6:09 PM
somefeller said...: Politics ain't beanbag, Unknown. Intraparty battles can be rough. Doesn't really tell us much.If you can't take the heat, etc., etc.; 9/1/14, 6:10 PM
MadisonMan said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/1/14, 6:11 PM
Unknown said...: Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel's War on Teachers and Children

"It is 90 percent of school closings [that affect] African-Americans. This is racism right here," he declared. But later he added, "No matter what the color is, no matter if you're Asian or Chinese, it doesn't matter. You should not be closing these schools!"\

Rahm (Shut Up, Asshole) Emanuel is the bull-goose mayor of Chicago, America’s bull-goosiest city, and he would like very much to bust that city’s teachers union so as to bring in a bunch of education “reform” grifters.

http://iearegion28.wordpress.com/2013/08/15/rahm-emanuel-chicago-school-reform-chicagos-schools-are-open-for-business-esquire/; 9/1/14, 6:11 PM
MadisonMan said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/1/14, 6:11 PM
Unknown said...: --Politics ain't beanbag, Unknown.

Well don't try to sell that fecal material that kindler and gentler Democrats don't hate teachers but Republicans do. It just won't hunt. It just union propaganda and we've heard it all.; 9/1/14, 6:15 PM
Unknown said...: ----Chicago Teachers Union president Karen Lewis lashed out at Mayor Rahm Emanuel Thursday after Chicago Public Schools released its list of schools to be closed, calling him "the murder mayor."

"Look at the murder rate in this city. He's murdering schools. He's murdering jobs. He's murdering housing. I don't know what else to call him. He's the murder mayor," she said.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130321/chicago/murder-mayor-ctus-karen-lewis-lashes-out-at-rahm-emanuel; 9/1/14, 6:17 PM
Michael K said...: "Democratic reformers don't hate teachers, unions or public schools in general so the tone differs a bit than that from conservatives"

Says the commenter who doesn't know diddly about conservatives.

As I posted above, teachers' union are ok when vouchers are available to all, especially the poor whose kids are in hellish schools. Why do you think vouchers poll much better in black neighborhoods ?; 9/1/14, 6:19 PM
somefeller said...: The tone I was talking about was from Democratic reformers. Obviously the rhetoric will get rough but Democratic reformers aren't haters (if they were, they'd be social conservative activists) so in the end their critiques of the public school system come off a bit differently to the ears of thoughtful people.; 9/1/14, 6:19 PM
Anonymous said...: Whoopi has to apologize in 3, 2, 1...; 9/1/14, 6:19 PM
Paul said...: I am shocked! So she finally sees that UNIONS, that do everything they can to featherbed employees and pad the payrolls with incompetents, are wrong?

Stunning!

I mean she is basically saying hiring and keeping employees by merit as some uses.

One of the cornerstones of UNIONS is seniority, NOT merit!

It really amazes me when liberals have their moment of clarity.; 9/1/14, 6:29 PM
garage mahal said...: Black and latinos were sold a bill of worthless goods in Milwaukee, home of the longest "tenured" public charter school experiment in the country. The result? A few successes, and a string of shitty hole-in-the-wall schools run by fly-by-night grifters, and other parasitic lowlifes who board schools up in the middle of the night and crawl back to the state where they came from and start all over again. Hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars later in additional taxes.....and nothing to show for it. But they are aligned with billionaire conservative donors so taxpayers must keep showering them with money. It's the only patriotic thing to do! Conservative billionaires are the most patriotic people out there, are you aware of their intense struggles within the system? Let them loose!; 9/1/14, 6:30 PM
Rusty said...: Robert Cook said...
As I can't find another blog post here pertaining to Labor Day, I'll post this here:

Labor's Demise is America's Demise

Then start a business that employs skilled labor.
Oh. Wait. The regulations you so love has sent those jobs overseas.; 9/1/14, 6:38 PM
Rusty said...: It really amazes me when liberals have their moment of clarity.

never fear. it wont last long and the conclusions they draw will always be wrong.; 9/1/14, 6:40 PM
buwaya said...: In San Francisco the fight against charters was intense. The school board flipped from pro to anti charter in 2006, throwing out a black woman superintendent that was seen as too conservative, and then through various maneuvers tried to close several charters in spite of unified parent opposition (look up Edison school controversy). Fortunately the state (at that time we had a Republican governor) intervened and worked out funding to keep them open. I was at a few of these school board meetings and I was astounded at the refusal of the board to even acknowledge the existence of the parents involved.
They were obviously irrelevant.; 9/1/14, 6:46 PM
Drago said...: Somefeller: "..(you know, the people Sarah Palin calls eeleetist because of their book larnin').."

Something tells me there really isn't anything Palin has said that remotely resembles this caricature.

Thus, somefeller writes precisely like one whose sources of information range all the way from TPM on the far left to Rachel Maddow on the far left.; 9/1/14, 6:51 PM
Drago said...: Rusty (to Cook): "Then start a business that employs skilled labor."

Hey Rusty, that's just ugly and uncalled for!!

Why, that's capitalism! Which, of course, is the source of all human conflict and pain.; 9/1/14, 6:53 PM
Drago said...: garage: "..and a string of shitty hole-in-the-wall schools run by fly-by-night grifters, and other parasitic lowlifes.."

Why can't we have more public schools like those in NYC who only kick out about 80% illiterates, like garage:

http://www.villagevoice.com/2013-04-03/news/system-failure-the-collapse-of-public-education/

snip: "Put another way, New York City officials openly admit that a high school diploma earned in our public schools today does not mean that a student is ready for college. In fact, 80 percent of New York public school graduates who enrolled in City University of New York community colleges last fall still needed high school level instruction—also known as remediation—in reading, writing, and especially math."

Hey man, that's only 80% failure!

That's garage academic HEAVEN!!

Or would have been, if he had any academic achievements.; 9/1/14, 6:57 PM
Drago said...: Don't worry garage, that was in 2013.

Things are all better now.

And, they weren't that bad before, it's only because we have twitter and other social media that it seems that bad.

So saith your earth-bound God-child.; 9/1/14, 6:58 PM
Unknown said...: Democratic reformers aren't haters (if they were, they'd be social conservative activists)

They aren't haters, but they are lustful after nothing but power and exploit the people they purport to help. After a few years they help themselves to some of the boodle that their efforts generate.; 9/1/14, 6:59 PM
Robert Cook said...: "The regulations you so love has sent those jobs overseas."

What sent the jobs overseas is the technical practicality and possibility of doing so, and the desired objective of paying as little for labor as possible, (and with minimal or nonexistent laws requiring safe, healthy working conditions, to sweeten the pot).

If there were a nation on earth that advertised its desirability as a place for businesses to set up operations because it could guarantee an unlimited supply of literal slave labor, that would soon be the world beehive of industry.; 9/1/14, 6:59 PM
Drago said...: buwaya puti: "I was at a few of these school board meetings and I was astounded at the refusal of the board to even acknowledge the existence of the parents involved.
They were obviously irrelevant."

Hey, those parents just get in the way of garage's pals having lifetime tenure despite poor performance.

What do those parents know about whats best for their kids anyway?; 9/1/14, 6:59 PM
Drago said...: Cook: "If there were a nation on earth that advertised its desirability as a place for businesses to set up operations because it could guarantee an unlimited supply of literal slave labor, that would soon be the world beehive of industry."

Since when did lefties have problems with governments (of the left) treating their workers like slaves?

BTW, you might have heard that in the workers paradise that is Venezuela people have to show ID to buy food!!!

Not to vote.

To. Buy. Food.

Why can't we all live in such enlightened lefty run lands?

I ask you!; 9/1/14, 7:02 PM
buwaya said...: This explanation of the decline of US manufacturing is very partial.
Some sorts of unskilled or semiskilled manufacturing that do not require much fixed investment went away to lower cost countries. Textiles and clothing for instance.
Some higher tech manufacturing like the US optical industry (yes there was one, now gone, Rochester NY was the epicenter) lost out to higher skilled Germans and then Japanese, which were not necessarily underpaid or worse regulated.
Other more highly skilled or site specific industries remained, whose main competition does not necessarily have a straight cost advantage. However, the US does suffer from higher "political risk" factors in making investment decisions, and also specific concentrations of industries (there are concentration advantages particularly in workforce development) seem to have been deliberately destroyed through regulatory harassment. That is still happening. At the moment for instance the US no longer has a lead smelter, the last one having been closed due to ePA harassment. This means US battery and ammunition manufacturers have to import lead from less regulated foreign sources. These same regulations also threaten to put out of business all US battery manufacturers. And so it goes.; 9/1/14, 7:14 PM
n.n said...: I actually agree. However, was it rape or rape-rape, Whoopi? What are the liberal requirements for rehabilitating a tarnished public image?; 9/1/14, 7:35 PM
Anonymous said...: somefeller said:

"...the people Sarah Palin calls eeleetist because of their book larnin')

You can, of course cite evidence of Palin saying that?

Sarah Palin's father was a science teacher.

If you want to smear someone for no reason other than you can't have an original thought and want to foster what your masters have said, do it somewhere else.; 9/1/14, 7:50 PM
Michael K said...: "If there were a nation on earth that advertised its desirability as a place for businesses to set up operations because it could guarantee an unlimited supply of literal slave labor, that would soon be the world beehive of industry."

Says the lefty who thinks only "slave labor" would induce a company to relocate.

There are some high tech companies that use foreign skilled labor (like Apple) because of lower cost. Others are escaping crazy regulations. California once had a boat building industry but it was driven away due to environmental rules. The hot sauce example is very recent.

Why do you think auto companies and airline companies have or are now relocating to nonunion states ? Obama's NLRB is trying its best to stop them and, if it was successful, those jobs would go overseas, as well.

Lefties simply do not understand anything about manufacturing or business. Those who support left wing government are usually getting well paid to do so. Some companies do well under fascism, which is what the Democrats currently offer.; 9/1/14, 8:05 PM
LuAnn Zieman said...: In Milwaukee, independent charter schools are significantly out-performing their counterparts in reading, math, and Wisconsin’s new School Report Cards. In fact, these schools are performing so well that their success was the reason behind the decision to convert failing schools to charter programs. Under the current accountability proposal, chronically failing schools would be shut down and rebuilt by a high-performing charter school. That means the only programs that can undertake this rehabilitation are the ones with a proven track record of success. That’s also where Wisconsin’s charter schools have seen the most growth – thanks mostly to the performance of the independent 2R charter schools that operate in the district.; 9/1/14, 8:13 PM
richard mcenroe said...: Guess her kid got thrown out of private school.

Too late anyway. An entire generation of D voters has already been programmed.; 9/1/14, 8:18 PM
richard mcenroe said...: When I graduated high school in the 70's, a graduate could be expected to have a working vocabulary of around 25,000 words.

Today it's around 7,500.

No wonder "political discussion" is reduced to slogans and tweets, the kids literally lack the language to articulate their points.; 9/1/14, 8:22 PM
PB said...: I think support for the union is the sign of a bad teacher.; 9/1/14, 8:41 PM
wildswan said...: "If there were a nation on earth that advertised its desirability as a place for businesses to set up operations because it could guarantee an unlimited supply of literal slave labor, that would soon be the world beehive of industry."

It never once worked that way when slavery was legal. Instead slave countries in the 19C like Cuba, Brazil, Saudi Arabia, Angola were backward hellholes. Read about the Belgian Congo and Roger Casement. Read about the North and the South in the US. Get an education or you may end as a teachers' union exec.; 9/1/14, 9:02 PM
garage mahal said...: In Milwaukee, independent charter schools are significantly out-performing their counterparts in reading,

Nope nope. You're ill-informed, or worse.; 9/1/14, 9:39 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: LuAnn Zieman said...
In Milwaukee, independent charter schools are significantly out-performing their counterparts in reading, math, and Wisconsin’s new School Report Cards.

Need to see the numbers. In general charter schools have not done better than the equivalent state schools. There is a reason for this, teachers are just not that important. Parents are important and based on what I have seen they are the problem. Most have no idea what academic achievement looks like. They pissed their way through some party university, got a half-assed degree and then, largely thanks to the fact that they live in a wealthy country, made a decent living doing something not that demanding. Never having made any significant effort at school themselves they don't expect their kids to either.

I wouldn't be a teacher for all the money in the world. The parents are a nightmare.; 9/1/14, 9:58 PM
Michael K said...: "Nope nope. You're ill-informed, or worse."

garage, you are the expert. On almost everything so we have to take your word. You don't happen to have any... you know, evidence ?

Oh, sorry. I know it's insulting to ask you for evidence.

You'd think we didn't trust you or something.

I'm sure this can't be right. Can it ?

I mean you know so much more than Brookings.

We conclude that while charter schools overall may help the education of urban youth, our study of Milwaukee indicates that they should not be expected to be the silver bullet that some reformers seek.; 9/1/14, 10:28 PM
Drago said...: Michael K: "We conclude that while charter schools overall may help the education of urban youth, our study of Milwaukee indicates that they should not be expected to be the silver bullet that some reformers seek."

Garage cares about his african-american countrymen.

Not enough of course to give them pathways out of insanely horrific public schools or live near them, but still, he's down for the struggle.

Inspirational.; 9/1/14, 10:33 PM
chickelit said...: We're aware that this is an issue that divides the Democratic coalition, and has since the time of D.P. Moynihan. What I don't think you take seriously enough is how often reformers lose (just like Fenty), and what this says about the nature of the Democratic coalition.

I just learnt-up on this Fenty feller on Wikerpedia and it seems obvious to me why he was on somefeller's radar and it wasn't nuthin' to do with education.; 9/1/14, 11:25 PM
buwaya said...: Teaching can have a very strong effect, granted that this effect is concentrated in the earlier and presumably formative years. I have tutored mathematics for many years. I have dealt with a wide variety of underperforming students. What was common about them was very poor early preparation for whatever reason. Remedial education can indeed help a great deal. If this is so I don't see why the right sort of teaching can't substantially improve this grasp of fundamentals in the first place. The best example I know of is the Inglewood school district (LA County). I used to do an annual data analysis of the state test results, and they were consistently outperforming expectations by a wide margin. The district achieved this with an intensely focused implementation of math drills and phonics. For over a decade it was at the top of districts with similar students. Latterly leadership changes seem to have ruined an excellent team and performance has fallen badly. Personnel aren't everything, but they are important indeed.; 9/1/14, 11:29 PM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Once again Michael K makes a complete ass of himself in public. This is what the link actually said.

there is no statistically significant relationship between charter school attendance and performance on reading exams;

the performance of charter schools and traditional public schools is statistically indistinguishable for the most recent years of our study (on mathematics)

there is no evidence that the presence of charter schools induces better student performance in traditional public schools.

Michael K doesn't give a shit that charter schools don't significantly help Milwaukee school children over the long term. It's all just political point scoring for him. "Oh look some random data point I can cherry pick to try to bolster my pathetic world view". Has there ever been a more contemptible commentator on this site?; 9/2/14, 6:34 AM
Hagar said...: That avatar. Is that a selfie?; 9/2/14, 7:35 AM
Robert Cook said...: "Why do you think auto companies and airline companies have or are now relocating to nonunion states?"

To pay lower wages.; 9/2/14, 7:48 AM
jr565 said...: It's not just bad teachers that do nobody any good. It's bad workers in any union.; 9/2/14, 8:31 AM
jr565 said...: Not to say that there are no bad workers not in unions. Only in the private sector, if they are bad, they can be gotten rid of much easier.; 9/2/14, 8:32 AM
Peter said...: It's good news that at least some Democrats are willing to break fealty to the teachers' unions.

But I don't think that's coming to Wisconsin anytime soon. Our Democrats are all but owned-and-operated subsidiaries of public-sector unions.; 9/2/14, 8:49 AM
Hammond X. Gritzkofe said...: Ho hum.

Ms. Goldberg's comment was addressed to the Unions: "So the unions need to recognize..."

Perhaps if she had directed her comment differently: "Parents and people who pay taxes must recognize *when they vote* that..."; 9/2/14, 9:22 AM
Rusty said...: Robert Cook said...
"Why do you think auto companies and airline companies have or are now relocating to nonunion states?"

To pay lower wages.

That's right comrade Bob. And also the company management can regain control of its product.
What would you rather have. A 45.00 an hour worker just filling time not really giving a damn about his/her output, or a 25.00 an hour worker really enthused about doing a good job?; 9/2/14, 10:10 AM
Robert Cook said...: "What would you rather have. A 45.00 an hour worker just filling time not really giving a damn about his/her output, or a 25.00 an hour worker really enthused about doing a good job?"

Why do you assume a (union) worker making $45.00 an hour would not give a damn about his job and would just be filling time, while the $25.00 an hour (non-union) worker would be more enthusiastic--("enthused," feh!)--about doing a good job?

I had a union job for 8 years, and nearly all of my co-workers were conscientious about doing good jobs; I say "nearly all" because in every place one works one will find employees who don't much care about doing their jobs well. I have found at least the same percentage of slackers, (i.e., a few, but not many), at every job I have had.; 9/2/14, 10:25 AM
Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...: Let's rewrite that. Which would you rather have a $45.00 an hour worker who can support a stable family and a stable community resulting in better schools and a sustainable path for the country or a $25.00 an hour worker whose marriage collapses or who never marries resulting in more kids without fathers, chaotic schools and a rapid descent into third world status for our country?

Not a hard choice when you really think about it.; 9/2/14, 10:25 AM
Alex said...: Most parents have no clue how to educate childrun anyways, leave it to the professionals in our sacred public scrools.; 9/2/14, 10:31 AM
Alex said...: Robert Cook & AReasonableMan just destroyed your anti-union diatribes.; 9/2/14, 10:32 AM
Alex said...: Let's not make any bones about this. Conservatives will not be satisfied with anything less than the utter destruction of public education.; 9/2/14, 10:32 AM
Alex said...: Let's not make any bones about this. Conservatives will not be satisfied with anything less than the utter destruction of public education.; 9/2/14, 10:33 AM
n.n said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 9/2/14, 11:03 AM
n.n said...: Is the issue government-controlled education or education? The message supporting public schools is confused.

The problem is not public schools per se. It is a lack of accountability. All monopoly structures or monopolistic behaviors are subject to progressive corruption. There needs to be competition to prevent amoral people from running amuck.

Also, redistributive change or increasing salaries and benefits ignores the causes. This is the same failure as Obamacare, which addressed neither affordability nor availability in a relevant context. This will only work for a minority (e.g. union), and it will only remain effective in the short-term. America already has a non-contributory entitlement economy of nearly $3 trillion annually, and real progress has been ambiguous. Policies which promote progressive devaluation of capital and labor are not only myopic but actually counterproductive.

That said, men and women need to act as parents. It's too late to "plan" for your children's abortion. You have accepted the "burden", and you need to act responsibly. The choice is to hold both the schools and your children accountable for their actions.; 9/2/14, 11:11 AM
Brando said...: There are serious cracks in the Democratic coalition that could be far more exploitable if the GOP weren't seen as the greater evil, forcing Democrats to overcome their differences to unite against them.

Racial preferences are not particularly popular even among Democrats--remember when even Obama mentioned he thought it was absurd for his daughters to benefit from such a system?--and unions are far less popular than they used to be. There are plenty of Adrian Fentys around the country, trying to save liberal institutions (such as local governments) which are being strangled by the unions. These are among the most notable fissures in the party and I wouldn't be surprised to see them grow over the years. They're only somewhat hidden by the nature of their fight against the GOP.; 9/2/14, 11:58 AM
cubanbob said...: Need to see the numbers. In general charter schools have not done better than the equivalent state schools. There is a reason for this, teachers are just not that important. Parents are important and based on what I have seen they are the problem. Most have no idea what academic achievement looks like. They pissed their way through some party university, got a half-assed degree and then, largely thanks to the fact that they live in a wealthy country, made a decent living doing something not that demanding. Never having made any significant effort at school themselves they don't expect their kids to either. "

ARM actually got this right. Insofar as education reforms go this is a problem that hasn't been addressed and really isn't a left-right voting issue. How to solve this aspect of the problem I don't know but it is a problem that must be addressed since the US cannot escape the world economy no matter what the anti-free traders and protectionist think.

While the usual suspects have been bashing charter schools and vouchers as being no better than the public schools they conveniently overlook the fact that if the public schools were indeed that good there wouldn't be demands for charter schools and vouchers.

"AReasonableMan said...
Let's rewrite that. Which would you rather have a $45.00 an hour worker who can support a stable family and a stable community resulting in better schools and a sustainable path for the country or a $25.00 an hour worker whose marriage collapses or who never marries resulting in more kids without fathers, chaotic schools and a rapid descent into third world status for our country?

Not a hard choice when you really think about it.

9/2/14, 10:25 AM"

False choice. No employer is going to pay $45 an hour for work he can get done at $25 an hour. The failure of the educational system of this country is not producing enough people who are worth $45 an hour. By the way $25 an hour is still pretty good in most parts of the country and if it's a married couple with each making $25 an hour they could rather well in most of the country by the standards of the average American.

Maybe Garage can explain to us parents why unionized teachers are good for our children and leave it to Alex to advise us the Father knows best.; 9/2/14, 12:17 PM
Rusty said...: Comrade Bob at 10:25

which still didn't answer my question.; 9/2/14, 1:14 PM
Rusty said...: Comrade Bob at 10:25

which still didn't answer my question.; 9/2/14, 1:14 PM
Rusty said...: AReasonableMan said...
Let's rewrite that. Which would you rather have a $45.00 an hour worker who can support a stable family and a stable community resulting in better schools and a sustainable path for the country or a $25.00 an hour worker whose marriage collapses or who never marries resulting in more kids without fathers, chaotic schools and a rapid descent into third world status for our country?

Not a hard choice when you really think about it.

Lets not and answer it the way it was asked instead of playing games.

And no Alex Arm didn't win. labor is an elastic commodity. ARMs and Comrades Bobs error is in treating it like it is a fixed commodity.; 9/2/14, 1:21 PM
Robert Cook said...: "Comrade Bob at 10:25

"which still didn't answer my question."

There is no demonstrated basis for your question, and thus no answer to provide.; 9/2/14, 1:32 PM
ken in tx said...: Counting regular teaching, student teaching, and substitute teaching, i have taught in four different school districts, none of them unionized. Unions are not the problem many think they are. It the culture of the education establishment. That culture is shot through with PC multiculturalism. Group rights predominate the system. Administrators micro-manage teachers and use threats and intimidation to control them, i.e. there are worse schools you could be transferred to. Absurd policies, such as, no teacher can assign a grade lower than 60%, regardless of student performance, and that a student can be administratively placed in the next higher grade despite having failed and being unable to perform at grade level, These are some of the reasons I retired.; 9/2/14, 2:10 PM
buwaya said...: I wish I had the data I was analyzing @6-10 years ago.
California has, or had, the best testing system in the country and the best test analysis database as well. They collected all sorts of environmental information to use in regression modeling.
As a sort of busmans holiday I was doing additional analysis of this looking for answers. One of the factors I checked on was charters vs straight public schools.
Now, as it happens, there are charters and there are charters. Charter schools are present in all sorts of districts serving all sorts of populations. The clearest distinction in California data is charters that are oriented towards genuinely poor (Black/Hispanic, school lunch qualification, low parent education, etc.) vs the middle class. The California grading system for schools took the school demographics into account - based on the regression model the most important factor was race. Schools were rated against similar schools - same modeled "difficulty". My results, to summarize - Charter schools that served the middle class were actually mediocre vs similar public schools. Charter schools that served the poor did considerably better (by about a standard deviation) than similar public schools.
I may be motivated to get a recent dump of the CA testing data and try this again.; 9/2/14, 2:14 PM
Jack Klompus said...: "Conservative billionaires are the most patriotic people out there, are you aware of their intense struggles within the system? Let them loose!"

The struggle you must have going about your existence being as painfully dull and stupid as you are surpasses most struggles.; 9/2/14, 3:38 PM
Jack Klompus said...: "garage, you are the expert. On almost everything so we have to take your word. You don't happen to have any... you know, evidence ?"

Why would garage need evidence when he's gotten this far on nothing more than being a dense, shrill, obnoxious jerk.; 9/2/14, 3:39 PM
iowan2 said...: Education is junk? The profession of education is junk?

Let's be real. Teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic is not at all a challenge. Any person that is not mentally deficient can teach the basics.

The profession of teaching is not junk, private schools turn out a fine product.

The problem? Government. leftist ideology has usurped parental authority at every turn. It has been going on since WW II.
Leftist ideology has never liked the idea of non professionals rearing children, and so, the constant assault on parental authority. Teachers told me verbatim, ignore your parents. "They are uneducated, never went to college, don't understand what is important. Listen to your college educated teachers, they are your true roll models. Not parents, with their emphasis on family, church, and community."

The education establishment got their wish, parents turned over responsibility, deferred to the superior intellect and we have had..new math, sight reading, sex education, etc,etc.

In short, the govt has never been able to rear children, never.

How about this? The government stop rewarding destructive behavior.

Any one ever wonder how the USA was so great before Social Security?

I'll tell you.

Before SS a persons retirement plan was children. And,.....if you wanted a nice retirement, it was critical that your children had, character, morals, work ethic, and had an education, or trade that could support dear old mom and dad in their twilight years.

All of this leftist ideology is not compassion and safety nets, it's planned dependence.

You deserve the govt you ask for.; 9/2/14, 6:19 PM