July 6, 2014

"She was talking to a man at a cocktail party when he asked her what she did. She replied that she wrote books..."

"... and she described her most recent one, River of Shadows: Eadweard Muybridge and the Technological Wild West. The man interrupted her soon after she said the word Muybridge and asked, 'And have you heard about the very important Muybridge book that came out this year?' He then waxed on, based on his reading of a review of the book, not even the book itself, until finally, a friend said, 'That's her book.' He ignored that friend (also a woman) and she had to say it more than three times before 'he went ashen' and walked away. If you are not a woman, ask any woman you know what this is like, because it is not fun and happens to all of us."

From "10 Words Every Girl Should Learn/Socialized male speech dominance is a significant issue, not just in school," by Soraya Chemaly. (Via Metafilter.)

94 comments:

rhhardin said...

Talking over women saves time.

Terry said...

I am certain that this happens to men as well.
Are women (or feminists) more likely to conclude that anecdote = fact?
More women than men write books, don't they? It didn't used to be that way, but it seems that there are more published female than male writers these days.

J said...

Ah yes, because every woman is writing books that are widely read. That's like saying every woman is whiny because these 2 are.

Maybe they haven't yet realized that people aren't always listening as closely as you might like to think they are. Happens to everyone...not everyone thinks to whine about their gender because of it.

Hector said...

So what? That's the exception that proves the rule. Generally women are blissfully ignorant and enthralled by what a guy says, any guy.

rcocean said...

Ah yes the Feminine delusion that MEN don't listen to them because they are Female. Hello, we don't listen to you because you have nothing to add, and because you won't fight for your ideas.

Face it, you're just a bunch of tomboys who want to play football with the boys, and then when you we treat you just like a boy, and tackle rough, you get all upset. Hey, wait a minute, not so rough.. I'm a girl...I'm special.

Sorry, go play with your dolls.

Anonymous said...

Terrible Reading Comprehension Guy says:

I read the essay. The woman sure could prattle on, couldn't she? Cut out all the extraneous bitching and get to the point and it would've been a much quicker read.

David said...

Your results may vary. It all depends on who you hang out with.

The Crack Emcee said...

O.K., now that I recognize, and it's a white guy problem. Just oblivious.

The closest thing I've seen to it in the black community was a friend who got stationed in Japan. When he returned, he didn't even acknowledge women existed. I had to set him straight - but quick. And that's the thing:

When blacks are fucked-up, we say they're fucked up and try to get some help. White guys can be as emotionally clueless as a table leg and saunter through life with very little problem, a major paycheck, and authority. And they're not even good at their jobs!

Alright. So, when it comes to feminism, I've decided to let you lead for a while. This post makes me wonder if I'm possibly like the Neanderthals, who can only see racism in it's most obvious manifestations, and can see sexism only when it's as plain as this example. (I'm still pondering the meaning of your "WOMEN/Fox Squirrel" post.) If there's something deeper here, then I want to know it, so you've got the helm:

Enlighten me,...



Sorun said...

I started to read the article but my mind quickly wandered away.

sydney said...

I wonder how much of that kind of experience is rooted in a man's sexual attraction to the woman. He's so focused on trying to impress her that he can't manage to engage her. Do ugly women experience this kind of conversation less than pretty women?

MRG said...

"Happens to everyone...not everyone thinks to whine about their gender because of it."

Yes, and the people who talk the most are the worst listeners. Women can blame menstration on their gender but not poor listening.

T Rellis said...

Hello? Read that thread, whine whine whine, who wants to hear that shit? Best to cut her off and talk about something important.

n.n said...

She is a bit insular, isn't she; and prejudiced, too. There is a larger world where men respect women, and women respect men; and her empowering misconceptions would be dashed. I can't imagine living in the dysfunctional world she inhabits. Although, it would explain the general tenor of left-wing politics.

MayBee said...

Anyone who talks about a "very importan"t book is going to be insufferable.

Christy said...

When younger, baiting guys to make such asses of themselves was great, predictable sport. Great way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Gene said...

I bet no men interrupt or ignore Althouse. Of they do, I suspect, they only do it once.

lattimore said...

Think about this from the woman's perspective. This isn't about her being a feminist. What he did was offensive and rude. Casual dismissal without consideration, and it happens frequently (aka every Althouse thread with a woman in the article, regardless of political standing)

Terry made several good points, one, that being spoken over is something that happens to everyone, and two, that this relies on anecdote. I agree with both. Perhaps men are more likely to speak over other men, I cannot say. However, in my experience, more men have spoken over me than women, in everything from class to dates.
Things of personal nature are always going to depend on anecdote, but that does not invalidate them. Most people use anecdotes and assumptions based on personal experience to make their points. For example:

Hector said:
"Generally women are blissfully ignorant and enthralled by what a guy says, any guy."

Terry said:
"More women than men write books, don't they? It didn't used to be that way, but it seems that there are more published female than male writers these days."

Anecdotes, assumptions intuit collected data for us. Sometimes it's done right, sometimes it's done wrong.

Michael said...

Why didn't the author (of the book) in this anecdote simply say "Well, yeah, that's my book" as soon as it became clear that it was? Why wait for a friend to point it out? This kind of thing happens to everybody, but men either 1) stand up for themselves when it happens, or 2) blame themselves for not standing up. They don't whine about the unfairness of the world; that's a given.

LYNNDH said...

Hey Crack, "enLIGHTen" me?

Carl Pham said...

No, it happens to everyone, but when it happens to a man he wonders -- is it because I spoke too quietly? Too indirectly? Used a word he doesn't know? Was he spacing out watching the game on the tube at the critical juncture? Is he just a jerk? Et cetera.

You have to be a woman to jump right to: It's because I'm a woman. I KNEW it! Once again, proof of the widespread subtle sexism that we know permeates society from top to bottom...!

Eeyore Rifkin said...

Chemaly exemplifies the ridiculousness of pop university feminism. She makes no attempt to critically examine her assumptions. She argues from anecdote. She also cites academic studies, but many of these are steeped in bogosity, distorted via secondary or tertiary sources--Salon, Tumblr, Huffpo--or simply not rigorous. For instance she points to the abstract of Cutler and Scott:

"It is a widely held belief that women talk more than men; but experimental evidence has suggested that this belief is mistaken. The present study investigated whether listener bias contributes to this mistake...."

They then go on to "suggest" [their verb] reasons for why listeners are biased. As far as I can tell this is little more than speculation based on "suggestive" evidence. It is suggested, and then quickly assumed, that what is suggested is true, but the authors do not quite claim to prove that it is true. There's an implied factual claim in the abstract (that women were perceived to talk more than they actually did in experimental conditions), but it isn't absolutely clear, and without a critical scrutiny of the study's methods and results, we're left with suggestion, which, apparently, is what they presume will most interest their readers. In Chemaly's case they were exactly right. Who needs science when suggestion will do?

John Lynch said...

I remember reading a comment by Victoria or maybe Freeman Hunt. She said that men usually won't read books by women.

I looked at my bookshelf and she was right.

So, I take feminist arguments about male bias more seriously now. This kind of feminism is a lot more interesting than political, interest-group feminism, which is boring.

Carnifex said...

If this really happened, and with the way progs lie about everything, who can say, then i would blame the man's upbringing. I was taught that you treated everyone like you wish to be treated. I was taught this by my mother, grandmothers and the Sisters. So I would have to blame their mothers etc. for not teaching the same lesson.

Ps.

A lesson race decriers would do well to learn too.

Revenant said...

The nice thing about feminist whining is that it makes for a refreshing change from the racialist whining.

traditionalguy said...

As a corollary, most men do not want to be taught because that requires tacit admission that they do no know a subject. That also is experienced by a man trying to teach a man.

communicating with new people is very time consuming. But at least women are dressed up nice and smell good.

Quaestor said...

Another "just so" story. Every spurious notion is fortified with if not wholly composed of "just so" stories: Every UFO nut can tell you a "just so" store about aliens and government conspiracies. Every creationist has his "just so" story about how dinosaurs missed their voyage on the Ark. Every Muslim fundamentalist has his "just so" story about Jews and gentile babies. And every racist has his "just so" story about THE WHITE MAN (Yes, Crack, the gimlet eye is upon you). That feminists have their stock of "just so" tales surprises me not. What surprises me is Althouse finding this whole stupid business worthy of comment. Or perhaps I should not be surprised.

Jim S. said...

A woman, speaking clearly and out loud, can say something that no one appears to hear, only to have a man repeat it minutes, maybe seconds later, to accolades and group discussion.

That happened to me all the time in high school, at least among a particular circle of friends. Not every day, but two or three times a week. So women don't have a monopoly on that kind of thing.

However it wouldn't surprise me if there was something to this, but I would be wary of overgeneralizing. The nine guys who don't interrupt and are genuinely interested in what a woman has to say are forgotten when the tenth guy is boorish.

Jim S. said...

I think the author errs when she attributes this to men but not to women. There may be some differences in how the genders "explain" things to you, but the idea that women don't do it is absurd. It's just that when women explain things to us we often call it nagging. So maybe "mansplaining" is the male counterpart to that.

A few years ago I got forwarded a mass email that was something along the lines of "10 things women want to say to men and 10 things men want to say to women". The only one I remember was something like this:

"Women, you can have it done your way OR you can have someone else do it. Not both."

That's the one I remember because it was the only one I didn't laugh at. I found it painful. I have since come up with my own version:

When a man sees you doing something inefficiently he says "Here, let me do it." When a woman sees you doing something inefficiently she says "Here, let me tell you how to do it."

Jason said...

She started talking about her book on whogivesafuck?

No wonder he had to shut that shit down.

Rather than goin ashen and slinking away like a beta, he should have gotten her to bring him a beer. And a goddam sammich.



Jason said...

"Customers who bought this book also bought Men Explain Things to Me.

You're goddamn right.

SomeoneHasToSayIt said...

. . . ask any woman you know what this is like, because it is not fun and happens to all of us."


Sorry. I just flat out don't believe that assertion.

The man in the anecdote was an ass, no doubt about that.

But no way an incident like that is common.

Unless this is another of those "I don't know anyone who voted for Nixon" situations.

Mary E. Glynn said...

She should stay home with her children and let the men talk.

campy said...

A woman is whining? Must be a day ending in "y."

St. George said...

Soon this (gender-free speech pattern training) will part of the mandatory curriculum starting in kindergarten. Education must begin early. Special teachers will need to be hired. More counselors, too. Perhaps in-home visits will be needed.

MathMom said...

I can't watch The View for two reasons. 1) I have only so many IQ points to spare, and feel them leaking out whenever I stumble across this show, and 2) the women interrupt each other constantly, never allowing anyone to finish a thought, creating a cacophony reminiscent of a hen house.

mezzrow said...

I avoid cocktail parties.

I'm beginning to reach a greater understanding why I avoid them.

I don't foresee a change in this policy.

Big Mike said...

If you are not a woman, ask any woman you know what this is like, because it is not fun and happens to all of us."

Of course something like that never happens to males. Nope. Not ever. Only to women. Because of sexism, you see, not because the world is full of assholes.

Like the author of the essay.

new york said...

Althouse,
I hope you are archiving these comments, so that fifty years from now people will be able to look back and believe how widespread, vicious and accepted was the mysogyny

Robert Cook said...

How unsurprising that most here seem to be defending the man who refused to listen to what the woman had to say, so determined was he to pretend he knew and had something to say about the subject--and dismissing the woman writer, who was being too polite by far. She should have simply turned around and walked away from him.

"Maybe they haven't yet realized that people aren't always listening as closely as you might like to think they are."

This is not that; this is someone who was not listening at all, wasn't interested in listening, and was interested only in asserting himself by aborting a dialogue in service to his monologue.

That is a boor and an asshole.

tim in vermont said...

"Yes, and the people who talk the most are the worst listeners." - Exactly!

My first question is why didn't she take the first opportunity to get away from this guy that presented itself?

No one but feminists have ever run into a bore at a party?

tim in vermont said...

BTW, I didn't even go to the link. Since I am unlikely to get laid by reading it, though I am sure being published and successful means she is pretty attractive, I can't think of any good reason to read what she has to say.

Brando said...

Ha ha, I remember a time when I had an unpleasant encounter with someone who belonged to another gender/race/ethnicity, and I decided to generalize that person's behavior to apply to their entire gender/race/ethnicity.

And then I realized I was being a bigot and maybe should consider people as individuals and not to make sweeping assumptions.

Skyler said...

So the man was talking to one woman, the author, and another woman rudely tried to interrupt. He correctly ignored the second woman while the first woman stood mutely and did not contribute further to let him know who she was?

Yeah, blame the man. Sheesh.

Jessica said...

But I guess I don't see how this necessarily manifests sexism? Maybe the guy is just an oblivious jerk?

Quaestor said...

MathMom wrote: ...the women interrupt each other constantly, never allowing anyone to finish a thought

Perhaps this is deliberate, to disguise the fact that thoughts on The View don't so much finish as peter out.

SGT Ted said...

I've had women do this to me.

Sorry ladies, can't blame it on the patriarchy.

Phil 3:14 said...


"How unsurprising that most here seem to be defending the man who refused to listen to what the woman had to say"

Mr. Cook, surely you're smart enough to recognize that most commenters aren't taking the subject seriously.

campy said...

"I hope you are archiving these comments, so that fifty years from now people will be able to look back and believe how widespread, vicious and accepted was the mysogyny"

If you want the comments archived why don't you archive them, instead of whining that someone else should do it?

Clark said...

I have a sneaking suspicion things didn't transpire exactly as described.

paminwi said...

Most times I enjoy reading the comments but today I agree I think the men here are dismissing this issue. It happens to all kinds of women, in "important" jobs and not so important jobs. And you have to be willing to be called names to point out the rudeness of the man doing the behavior.

Years ago my husband & I were looking for a new car that would primarily be mine since I was the mom who ferried the kids to their activities the most. We went into a car dealership, told the salesperson what we were looking for with that very specific information. IT WOULD BE MY CAR!
He ignored me completely and would only talk to my husband. After no more than 10 minutes of this, with me asking the majority of the questions, and him delivering the answers to my husband, I said to my husband "we are leaving - I will not let this man make any $ off of a sale to us". Being married to me as long as he had my husband knew I was not kidding and said, "ok".

Out the door we went with the salesman following us, and wondering what happened. What a fool - we had told him from the get go this was to be my car and that I would be the final decision maker about the purchase and he ignored that part of the conversation. We took our money to another dealership that treated me with respect about what I was looking for.

Men might learn something if that actually asked their wife or co-workers about their own behavior about this issue.

Freeman Hunt said...

It says to ask women if this happens to them. I would answer, "Almost never, certainly no more than it might happen to a man."

NotquiteunBuckley said...

It is obvious isn't it?

We need the Everybody Mumbles, Now You Mumble Too! act sponsored by Barb Mikulski.

She fixed your damn healthcare, and now she'll fix your damn over-aggressive-behaviors that frighten the children and Crack.

Rob McLean said...

I doubt if shrieking "Stop interrupting me!" is going to help much. As I often say to people who try to give me orders: "If you can work the word 'please' into that last request, I might consider it. Might."

Anonymous said...

Commenting on the Wrong Post Drunk Guy says:

When I am dressed as a woman I notice that men pay less attention when I am speaking. This is especially true when I am dressed as a classy French whore. Regardless, when a man interrupts me I reach into my purse and pull out Mr. MegaPenis, fifteen thick purple inches of veiny Shut-the-F**k-Up. This will usually do the trick, and then I can resume conversation. Sometimes I will even add a girlish giggle because, well, Mr. MegaPenis.

Anonymous said...

Commenting on the Wrong Post Drunk Guy says:

In times of serious confrontation I have been known to slap someone's face with Mr. MegaPenis. Most men don't know what to do when they are slapped in the face with a penis. This often changes the subject.

MadisonMan said...

Ah yes the Feminine delusion that MEN don't listen to them because they are Female. Hello, we don't listen to you because you have nothing to add, and because you won't fight for your ideas.

Excuse me, but I don't listen to anyone.

What's gender have to do with it?

And what MayBee said at 11:11. x10!!

Anonymous said...

Commenting on the Wrong Post Drunk Guy says:

I once slapped a policeman in the face with Mr. MegaPenis. He questioned my photo ID and asked for 'real' identification, so I showed him my panties. When I am dressed as a woman I am as real as I can get.

FloridaSteve said...

As the father of a rather bright and boisterous 12 year old daughter I find myself pushing back quite a bit on relatives (grandparents, aunts uncles etc) who constantly suggest that I should raise her to be more "polite". I didn't even understand them as I've always seen her offer to be helpful and say please and thank you. But then it dawned on me that what she does NOT do is let stupid ideas pass and/or refuse to be heard. That IS something I've been deliberate about teaching her. It seems that standing your ground intellectually even as a 12 year old girl is off-putting even to her paternal grandfather. I'm not changing a thing but I have talked to her about creative ways to approach it.,, If she feel s like doing so.

PackerBronco said...

If I wanted to have interesting, insightful, and meaningful conversation; I wouldn't look for it at a cocktail party.

Anonymous said...

Commenting on the Wrong Post Drunk Guy says:

When I am dressed as a woman I often go to fancy dinner parties. I like to pretend that I am in "The Great Gatsby" and a tray of cocktails floats at me through the twilight, and I sit down at a table with two girls in yellow and three men, and I introduce each one to Mr. MegaPenis. I am the Belle of the Balls.

Lonetown said...

The anecdote says more about the man than men.

Jason said...

These days, real men have to interrupt or talk over a certain class of woman early and often because otherwise they're prone to start flapping their pieholes about gender and shit.

Ignorance is Bliss said...

Not all men...

*ducks*

William said...

I've read all of Jane Austen, most of George Eliot, and a good chunk of Flannery O'Connor. If I didn't know who they were, I probably wouldn't hang on to their every word if I encountered them at a party. That's just the way it goes. A pretty woman gets more attention than a smart woman.....At that same party, Steve Brody would probably find a lot of women mesmerized by his insights into the human condition while Saul Bellow sat by himself in the corner.

MathMom said...

Until you have been completely ignored because of your sex by a Saudi border guard, you have not been ignored by a man because of your sex.

I even speak Arabic, and was attempting to take care of our border-crossing obligations by being "polite" and speaking in his language. But he would not even look at me, turned his back to me, and spoke only to my husband, who does not speak Arabic.

THAT is being ignored by a man because of your sex.

On the other hand, my ability to speak enough Arabic to pay too much for something in the souq has gotten me three marriage proposals within 5 minutes of meeting my potential husband. So, there's that.

Original Mike said...

I frequently find it difficult to get a word in edge-wise in conversations with women. Speech dominance my ass.

DKWalser said...

It happens to men, too. I mean that in both senses:

My grandfather felt he was an expert on everything. He used to lecture my father on various types of commercial aircraft. Dad was a commercial pilot and worked for the FAA. That didn't prevent grandpa, a rancher, from thinking he knew more about something my dad did for a living.

Innumerable times I've had women lecture me about some aspect of tax law. I'm a CPA. Tax is what I do. The women lecturing me usually know what I do (which is how the subject of taxes came up), yet they still insist something they saw on TV or heard from a friend is what I should be doing for my clients. Men often do the same thing. I've not noticed a huge difference between the genders in this aspect.

Saint Croix said...

Gender war!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing.
Say it again!

Witness said...

Althouse,
I hope you are archiving these comments, so that fifty years from now people will be able to look back and believe how widespread, vicious and accepted was the mysogyny


I hope that fifty years from now people can recognize Moby and Joking In Poor Taste Commenter when they see them.

paul a'barge said...

Rebecca Solnit?

Yeah. Who would talk over her?

Drago said...

Crack: "When blacks are fucked-up, we say they're fucked up and try to get some help."

LOL

Thanks crack.

That was a good one.

traditionalguy said...

Newton's Law of Verbal Authority:

1) The loudest talker in a room or at a table maintains the authority there until it is acted upon by a louder talker.

2)Digitally trained folks counter by downloading on listeners with no pauses to allow another talker to express thoughts thus turning a show of authority into a conversation.

These rule are gender neutral.

Anonymous said...

Imagine you're on the old Password game show: as your clue, you offer "Cocktail party..." and Kitty Carlisle immediately answers "...Blowhard!"

Anonymous said...

The Clinton campaign ought to hire some man to talk over Hillary any time she wants to talk about how poor she and Bill were, or anything else gaffetastic like that. I'm thinking Indonesian Spam Guy would be perfect for the purpose: instead of something embarrassing like "It doesn’t matter in our country whether it’s a Republican or Democrat, or frankly in your country whether it’s a Conservative or a Tory", your sound bite on the nightly news ends up being "Salam Kenal Jabat Tangan Dari Kami, Kalo Berkenan Kunjungi Balik Komandan".

MathMom said...

Quaestor -

...thoughts on The View don't so much finish as peter out.

I think you have found the truth.

I believe this is what Agent K, in Men in Black was referring to, when he said, "Human thought is so primitive that it's looked upon as an infectious disease in some of the better galaxies. Kind of makes you proud, doesn't it?"

I always think of this quote when I think of The View.

Original Mike said...

I've come to the conclusion that the generally accepted wisdom that women are good listeners comes from their countenance while "listening". Head nodding and other supportive facial expressions make it appear that they are listening, when what really is happening, more often then not, is they are planning the next thing they get to say.

There was a study once (which I heard reported on NPR, so it has to be right) in which they PET scanned the brains of people while listening to voices. The reported finding was that when women hear the sound of their own voice, their brain lights up similar to a drug-induced high.

Anonymous said...

That reminds me, I received a strange Victimhood kit in the mail with my tax returns. It says 'One Size Fits All:'

'As a male reader of books, I feel that she is unfairly targeting this over-eager fellow. He was simply trying to cut against the grain of many societal norms and share in his new knowledge. We need to raise awareness.

Many boys and men are mocked for book-larnin' every day. Studies show this. People agree. It's a trend.

Please join me in fighting this injustice by sharing your empathy. Together, we creating a more just, equal, and verdant society...the kind of society we all want to live in...

-end paragraph-

***Also, dont forget to combine this message along with some celebrity gossip and/or pictures of kittens and send it to your friends.'

Fernandinande said...


In 1874 [Muybridge] shot and killed Major Harry Larkyns, his wife's lover, but was acquitted in a jury trial on the grounds of justifiable homicide.


The good old days.

Anglelyne said...

n.n.: She is a bit insular, isn't she; and prejudiced, too. There is a larger world where men respect women, and women respect men...

No, the larger world is where all the assholes roam. (The insular world is the one I strive to create where I can avoid assholes of either sex as much as practically possible.)

The author is "insular" not because she makes some (accurate) observations about certain obnoxious male-to-female behaviors. Her insularity is revealed in the way she immediately attaches a few accurate observations to a bunch of mindless tribal (and misinformed) talking points, that don't support the original contention - thus rendering her incapable of saying anything useful or interesting about it. (See: requisite dingbat reference to Larry Summers' innocuous and non-sexist ruminations about women in science.)

Anglelyne said...

Geez, sometimes the guys here respond like a bunch of hysterics taking things way too personally.

Yes, everybody, male and female, has the experience of being talked over and ignored, and some women need to learn to stand up for themselves, or are oversensitive to what are not gender-specific slights. But there is most certainly a subset of this behavior that is a characteristically male kind of assholery directed specifically at females. Are we going to deny that there are characteristically female kinds of assholery directed specifically at males? Well, I wouldn't.

BTW, you guys "whine" about characteristically female assholery all the time around here, without feeling the need to attach all those moronic "not all X" caveats, and without the women around here getting all butthurt and hysterical about it.* Because "women" are assholes in the ways described. Just like that New Yorker cartoon referenced in the article is funny 'cause it's true.

*Well, unless Inga's around. And then we'd all concur that her special brand of maddening irrationality is characteristically feminine, without feeling any need to whimper about "not all women are like that!", or "I know some men who act that way, too", even though those latter statements are true.

Freeman Hunt said...

If some man interrupts you, interrupt him right back. What's the problem?

Julie C said...

At a cocktail party I can see how someone might miss a key word or phrase. Usually there's a lot of talk going on (duh) and you can miss something. Maybe the guy was nervous and wanted to impress the woman and so just kept talking. It happens.

I would have leaned in, put my hand on his arm, stared him right in the eyes, and said, "Dude, I know, I wrote the book!" and then started laughing and hopefully make him a bit less self conscious. Might have made a friend in the process and we would have had a funny story to tell people later on, instead of a pissy online article.

Clyde said...

The man in question was obviously a jerk, but just because he behaved that way does not necessarily mean that all men behave that way. It's like saying, "I was bitten by a dog once, so all dogs are bad."

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ALP said...

From the linked article:

"In fifth grade, I won the school courtesy prize. In other words, I won an award for being polite."

For heaven's sake, all we have here is a shy, introverted person lacking in social skills. That's all - no reason to get one's hackles up. Men who are shy and introverted probably have the same problem.

libertariansafetyguy said...

I strongly recommend Stephen Covey's 5th Habit of seeking first to understand, then be understood. It's not easy to empathetically listen. I screw it up often with men and women. With men, generally, I can easily recover - there just seem to be more ways to the get the conversation back to a pitch and catch. With women, generally, it's more obvious when I've screwed up and there seem to be less avenues to recover. When it works, it works very well. When it doesn't work well, I try very hard to look at myself in the mirror first.

Another point to consider. Conversations early stay in a sweet spot - especially about tough issues. We tend to either try to win (or dominate) the conversation or minimize (or escape) the conversation. I think this applies to both men and women, but maybe not equally. What is suggest for all is to have conversations like we play golf - play your best and communicate with candor and evidence and them be as accommodating of the other person as possible. Forgive them quickly for missteps and challenge ourselves to avoid forcing the other person into a misstep. In other words, focus on what we do and less on what the other person does to us, even if it interrupts.

Now, is the above "mansplaining"?

sean said...

How come everything Prof. Althouse and her girlfriends do, they do because they were "socialized" to do it? (Except when they have sex; that's the only thing they categorize as authentic self-expression.) In my case, everything I do is the result of conscious choice. I don't care what people think and if they try to "socialize" me to do something, I do the opposite just to make a point.

EMD said...

Would the Harry Potter series have been as popular if written by Joanne Rowling?

victoria said...

paminwi, you are so right. This kind of thing still happens today in the workplace and in the world. Sexual politics at its worst. Even after the man realized that the book he had never read but was waxing on about was written by the woman standing right in front of him, he had so little regard for her that he continued to go on and on. If men do not think this goes on today all the time, they are sadly mistaken.

It did seem funny to me too, paminwi, that most of the negative responses were from men and not women. Hmmmmmm.


Sent the article to my daughter, a 28 year-old attorney. As the french say, "Ca Plus change". The more things change the more they remain the same.


Vicki from Pasadena

Lydia said...

The Web is a wondrous thing. I just found a video of that woman who was talked over by the guy at that cocktail party. Now I'm thinking maybe he should be given a medal. Do watch as she opines at around the 6:16 mark that Osama bin Laden may in a 100 or 500 years time be thought of not as a "terrorist villain but as a kind of quixotic anti-capitalist".

That tells me she's a twit of the malicious variety. Which probably explains more than anything why the fellow ignored her. If he did. She's not a trustworthy source.

John Constantius said...

The part where the guy in her story talks about the very important book about Muybridge should be the dead giveaway that the author is not, per Lydia, a trustworthy source.

There is no such thing as a very important book about Muybridge. The fact that the author puts those words into her male counterpart's mouth should make it clear that this is just a humble-brag. Nothing like hiding a "look at me, I'm so great!" story inside a "can you believe how bad men treat women?" story.

I do believe she was actually at a cocktail party, she actually did talk to a man, and during that conversation one of them did mention she'd written a book that was "very important". That's about all I'm willing to believe about this particular story.

traditionalguy said...

@libertariansafetyguy...Nice comment @2:41. By Jove you've got it! Are you a professional psychologist?

Solnit actually seems to have an interesting contrarian style... if you have nothing else to do except listen on and on to her challenging ideas.

NotquiteunBuckley said...

Just don't be think in' cause I celebrate nuttiness and my nut factualness Steve over at nalert.blogspot.com and his Buckley (Yale's special young recruits like GWB and his papa and whatever Steve you propel it so well I shan't) bones ans skulls and shit .

I consider William Frank Buckley Jr.'s writings more than his actions at Yale.

Can one, Barton, separate?

tim in vermont said...

FWIW, I personally know two great bores, bores on the scale of this guy as described by Althouse's excerpts.

They were both raised by fawning mothers who doted on their every word.