There's some meek push-back in the comments:
I'm sure everyone will hate me for saying this, but first of all, she was jaywalking, then she was arguing with the officer, then fighting him, the entire time she was uncooperative and difficult. Even if she is a professor she wasn't acting in a professional manner. This escalated when it didn't have to.
Posts
104 comments:
Cops should wear cameras at all times. It's better for all parties. I'm reflexively suspicious of cops who say, show me your papers, Respect my authority so they really need to make the case that the lady was belligerent from the start.
I think police tactics have gotten far too brutal lately, and I am disinclined to take an arresting officer’s word for anything. So I was all primed to take this woman’s side, until I saw the video. That officer did nothing wrong; he was polite and professional, and he gave her every opportunity to end the interaction peacefully. She is clearly guilty of every charge: “assaulting a police officer, resisting arrest, refusing to provide identification when requested to do so by an officer, and obstructing a highway or public thoroughfare.”
Only one way to resolve this...that's right!
BEER with O'BAMA!
Jail them both.
A clueless professor who fails to respect a law enforcement officer who is trying to keep her from being run down in the street. She fails to see the irony in copping an attitude with a cop will bring predictable results from the cop. He bleating that apparently her skirt is too short for arrest doubles her entitlement mentality from racist to, and including, misogyny. The gift that keeps on giving.
Why don't Black people get it? You act like an asshole and resist the police, you get deeper in trouble. If you are polite, responsive, and just maybe contrite, you often walk away with nothing more than a warning.
I would have just shown my ID, but if I were a professor of some kind of minority studies, I might just behave like this so that I would have a great story to tell my classes (from my point of view) to get them excited and help validate the need for my classes.
I'd like a better view of the construction to see how necessary it was to cross the street there. It looks as though cars are coming from a side street up to the right. If there's a crosswalk there, she didn't need to go much farther to get to it.
From the article: "The incident occurred on May 20 when Ore, an English professor who teaches classes on Race Critical Theory among other topics, crossed the street..."
Black Race Critical Theory Professor, White Police Officer. Cultural Rorschach Test. Glad there was a Dash-Cam video.
She needs some jail time, and ASU needs to get rid of her.
@Ann,
has there been a Supreme-Court level case about when/how/whether a detained person can be forced to identify themselves?
I think it turns heavily on articulable suspicion.
Though observation of a crime (even crime as petty as jaywalking) removes the need for articulable suspicion, I think.
On the practical side...when interacting with the Police, even Policemen who are overstepping their authority, I understand that it is not a good idea to physically resist.
Mainly because Policemen are typically very good at overcoming resistance to arrest. And partly because there is a social understanding that the Legal system is a better place to sort such problems out.
This cop thinks it's against the law to refuse to show ID "when asked"?
Don't get me wrong, I'm disgusted by this cop, his attitude, and what he represents, but still, I had to laugh: Put your hands behind your back right now. I’m going to slam you on this car.
She was out of line.
Nothing good comes of struggling with a cop, dash cam or not. It's a loser.
The rationale for her kicking the officer was ludicrous. Struggle with two cops and you'll end up on the ground and cuffed. the position of your dress is not going to be high on their list of concerns. Kick an officer because his hand happens to be near your thigh?
good luck with that.
I'd like a better view of the construction to see how necessary it was to cross the street there. It looks as though cars are coming from a side street up to the right. If there's a crosswalk there, she didn't need to go much farther to get to it.
My impression was that she was walking down the middle of the street...
No matter how obnoxious she was, I don't think he should have slammed her on the ground like that. And when I first saw her in the video, I had guessed lesbian studies was her thing.
" sykes.1 said...
She needs some jail time, and ASU needs to get rid of her."
I'll take "Snowball's chance in Hell" for $400, Alex.
The Police guys were out practicing their new duties. Martial Law respects no civilian authority. All civilians must be arrested for showing the slightest resistance when walking around.
Was that the Police Department Gang's new member initiation rite.
Do roving police mobs start smashing windows of bad civilians next?
I think Arizona, following their contretemps with Obama over immigration laws enforcement, also had/has a policy of requiring all persons stopped by the police for whatever reason to show I.D.
I definitely believe that in a limited government democracy which we supposedly live in, that a body slam by the government on a citizen is exactly what I'd expect. The constitution is dead. Long live the constitution!
Gahrie said...
Why don't Black people get it? You act like an asshole and resist the police, you get deeper in trouble. If you are polite, responsive, and just maybe contrite, you often walk away with nothing more than a warning.
The main production plant where I work employs a lot of Hispanics. Some of them gang bangers. they always complain about being harassed by the cops. I told one of them to look at the people NOT being stopped by the police. Imitate them.
Of course they think I want them to "act white" and keep doing what they always do.
Interesting that she is an asst Prof, but manages to teach one class this year. and they pulled her CV from the Dept site
"Respect my authoritah!"
"Respect my authoritah!"
"No, you respect my authoritah!!"
"No, you respect my cop authoritah!!!"
"No, you respect my professor authoritah!!!!"
etc.
I don't like jaywalking laws - it's too easy for cops to abuse them.
A cop once pulled a gun on me for jaywalking in the 70's in LA.
It was early morning, no traffic, and I was waiting for a light that would not turn to green. After waiting a good while, I crossed on the red light and a cop car, that had been watching a block down the road, turned on his lights, drove up to me and asked me for my ID. I had long hair at the time and was tired of the police harrassing me, so I asked him for his ID. He pulled out his gun and said that's my ID. I decided not to push the point and showed him my ID. I ended up with a jaywalking ticket.
I'm pretty sure the cop had fixed the light so it wouldn't turn to green.
Look, she has probably been waiting her entire life to be stopped by the cops for walking while black. Do not think that that moment of repression, that lurid display of racism and white supremacy, that assault on her quasi-freedom, can go without the fierce resistance required of a freedom walker. Jail, yes even jail, won't prevent her from asserting her right as a black woman to walk wherever the fuck she wants to.
Looks like some bad policing to me. The cop sounds way too emotionally worked up for a jaywalking situation. Strained, high-pitched voice, not professional, not in-control, not calming. Losing control over a minor traffic infraction with a mildy asshole-ish college professor? Not good policing. And, no, the fact that all us good little sheep-citizens should have more sense than to get snitty with the police doesn't change that.
Having heard tales from mild-mannered, law-abiding, non-assshole Southern Californians about cops going medieval on them for, yes, jaywalking, you start to wonder about what's really going on behind this behavior. No, the problem ain't "racial profiling". This is the kind of policing you get in corrupt, dysfunctional societies. Can't touch the real bad guys, high or low, so you body-slam and arrest jaywalkers.
Two assholes meet in the middle of a street. Drama ensues.
It would have been easy for her to defuse the situation. Also easy for him to give her more opportunity to defuse.
Cop acted too quickly to use force to arrest her. Race was a factor, partly at least because she chose to make it a factor.
Cops are taught to take immediate and decisive control of situations involving noncompliant civilians. This is the downside of that training.
And this was a campus cop? Damn.
Think Progress? Really?
OFFICER: Are you aware this is a street?
ORE: Let me finish
OFFICER: OK, put your hands behind your back
This is the very definition of "To Protect and Serve" in white racist America.
It's how they make the jay-walking "criminals" they so anxiously arrest.
Fuck this place,...
The problem is he didn't shoot her. No man, no problem, as her friend Stalin used to say. Now you have the whole argle-bargle. Messy. A shooting, you have the hearing and move on. A few professors getting shot every day would provide fresh blood to academia and open valuable tenure slots.
David,
"Cop acted too quickly to use force to arrest her."
Ahh - guilt has been assessed - but, of course:
"Race was a factor, partly at least because she "chose to make it a factor."
Even with a 400 year history, SHE - not the white man stopping her for nothing - "chose to make it a factor"?
White people's "logic" is amazing,….
Chris Rock - How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police
Gahrie,
"Why don't Black people get it? You act like an asshole and resist the police, you get deeper in trouble. If you are polite, responsive, and just maybe contrite, you often walk away with nothing more than a warning."
About doing something EVERYBODY ELSE DOES.
You are such a foolish asshole,….
Rusty,
"I told one of them to look at the people NOT being stopped by the police. Imitate them."
And you'll be Gomer Pile or Barney Fife in no time,...
Michael,
"Look, she has probably been waiting her entire life to be stopped by the cops for walking while black."
Whites are stupid. And malicious. There's no way to read this kind of stuff and think otherwise.
Just evil ignoramuses,...
In the Ginza in Tokyo at five in the morning there was no traffic and there were only two pedestrians. I was one and the other was a Japanese man in his forties. I was a few yards behind him when he came to the intersection and the light changed and the
Ittle red hand went up that internationaly means Do Not Walk. The Japanese man waited for the sign to indicate it was safe to walk. Not a car in sight.
There were five handgun murders in Japan that year. Five.
I would rather live in Tokyo than Kinshasha.
Anglelyne,
"This is the kind of policing you get in corrupt, dysfunctional societies. Can't touch the real bad guys, high or low, so you body-slam and arrest jaywalkers."
Wow - Anglelyne finally comes through!
She even sees the cowardice involved - something I notice the white males totally missed in their defense of this asshole - maybe because they're a bunch of white cowards, too?
Anybody ever wonder how those lynchings of the past got started?
Or who would be doing them?
Look no further than the opinions on this thread,...
Why don't Black people get it?
"What do you mean what I just said is racist??"
With all due respect, Professor Althouse, I think there are too many university professors who are used to thinking of themselves as minor deities (and most of the rest think of themselves as major deities). I see nothing in the video that isn't all about "I'm a tenured professor so silly little things like laws don't apply to me."
Police Officer Who Sees the Bigger Picture says:
I've had enough of people believing jaywalking is an innocuous crime, that they aren't hurting anybody. You know what drug-dealers do? Jaywalk. Do you know what rapists and murderers and child molesters do? Jaywalk. And if you jaywalk you are jaywalking right beside them, make no mistake, you have made your choice and you are enabling the lowest of society's low: can you not see how you disgust me? Can you not see how my urge to break your legs is righteous?
Sure, you'll argue with me that you're not really doing anything wrong, not really, but you'll be crying for my help when a meth-head is raping your dog on your front lawn in front of the kids: oh yes, now you want the laws to be enforced, please Officer please. You know how that dog-raping meth-head on your lawn got to your house, anyway? He jaywalked. Sometimes force is needed to see the Bigger Picture.
She was out of line. The cop was out of line. If she had just shown him her university id she would have been okay. For whatever reason she chose to be confrontational and there you have it. Who knows what else had been going on in the area to, perhaps, put the cop on edge.
Never ever argue with the police. Let your lawyer do that.
Cops scare the s**t out of me. There's some great cops out there but there are some real fascists and I'd rather avoid them entirely. I don't even want to get involved enough to report a crime unless it's necessary.
Ah jaywalking laws. Here in my Los Angeles suburb of Glendale, we have the world's second largest number of Armenians. Only Yerevan has more.
Our pedestrian fatality rate is also fairly high; we lose two or three elderly Armenians a year in pedestrian/auto collisions.
That's true even though there's a remarkably high compliance rate in California with the law which grants pedestrians and absolute right of way in crosswalks. And the local P.D. zealously enforces that law with "sting" operations and such.
Certainly the professor had some "attitude"--and maybe the cop did as well.
But the professor should stay the heck out of the street in the middle of the block. But maybe rules don't apply to "professors".
I'll take my shot here at a one time adjunct "professor" of Constitutional Law who certainly believes that rules don't apply to him!
This is the absolute best possible career move for an assistant professor (on the cusp of a tenure decision?) who teaches "Race Critical Theory" and "Rhetorics of Race & Culture."
No self-respecting bastion of political correctness like a mid-level university would dare refuse her tenure after this personally challenging life experience.
With any luck at all, she'll be charged, and will have to appear for a preliminary hearing, where she'll be represented by Charles Ogletree of Harvard.
She can then do interviews on MSNBC with Al Sharpton, Rachel Maddow and Chris Hayes, as well as NPR interviews on Morning Edition, All Things Considered and Tell Me More.
With sufficient airplay, her case will reach critical mass in the national news cycle wherein Chuck Todd will be cleared by Valerie Jarrett to ask the President about the situation in a staged photo-op, wherein the President will issue a carefully-modulated statement in which he insinuates that the assistant professor is an innocent victim and the campus cop is an inexplicable asshole, but perhaps with the wisdom of the President, combined with the internationally-renowned affability of the Vice President, they can work it all out and appear as national race relations heroes.
It didn't look to me that the cop "body slammed" her (although he had threatened to do that). It looked like he was trying to control her, to get the cuffs on her, and they both went down. Maybe I'm wrong; that dashcam's never going to win an Oscar for cinematography.
She made some remark about how she was dressed, and then later her lawyer said she kicked the cop because she was exposed. If that means the Prof. was going commando, there's another life lesson to be learned here.
Police Officer Who Sees the Bigger Picture says:
You know, if you break the leg of a fleeing child-molester with a sharp crack of the night-stick you are a hero, but you break the leg of a jay-walker then everyone cries brutality. By breaking one law you are -- in spirit -- breaking all laws. If it wasn't for the soothing butt-plug I wear on duty I swear there would be more blood in the streets. Sometimes force is needed to see the Bigger Picture.
That street, College Avenue, is currently blocked because of construction of a new campus building. You can see the barricades in the middle of the street in the background of the video.
There is a side street that allows the only access to College Avenue. That side street gets very little traffic even during the day. The businesses on College get very little traffic at night. ASU is mostly a commuter campus and is mostly dead at night.
The main activity is a few blocks away in Downtown Tempe.
Lots of people jay walk on College Avenue right now because of the construction. I've done it many times to get to the transit center about 100 feet away from where this incident occurred.
I am not commenting on this incident, simply explaining the conditions on this street.
Was she crossing the street or walking down the middle of the street? The street in the video has very little traffic, and I would be amazed to see someone get arrested for not crossing at a crosswalk.
In the video we see, she verbally and physically lashes out at the officer, and directly kicks an officer after being handcuffed. She also sounds, not drunk exactly, but dazed and slightly loopy.
If she was crossing the street and not walking down the middle, I'd say they're both at fault. If she was walking down the middle of the street, she just chose a bad time to be drunk and belligerent.
Something just dawned on me regarding jaywalking laws in Tempe.
Several years ago, I was ready to jaywalk across a busy street near where this incident occurred. At the same time, a Tempe policeman started to jaywalk a few feet away from me. I said, "I'm glad I'm not the only one who jaywalks." He said it was not jaywalking since legally, jaywalking occurs only when there are signals at either end of the street. If there is a signal on one side and a stop sign or no sign on the either end, it is not jaywalking.
There is a signal on the north end of this street but a T-intersection is at the next street--no signal.
Unless the law has changed, this was not a case of jaywalking.
Police Officer Who Sees the Bigger Picture says:
You know where there are a lot of jaywalkers? Outside gay clubs. Now don't go jumping to conclusions, I am not homophobic: in fact, I often let them off with a warning and a blow job. Sometimes force is needed to see the Bigger Picture.
I too question whether I can be forced to show ID. I can't be forced to show ID when voting why should I be able to when walking?
On the other hand, I think they said it was on the University campus so perhaps it is legal for a campus cop to ask for university ID. (Anyone know?)
She was also engaged in breaking the law which I would suspect gives the cop the right to ask for ID and arrest her if she refuses to do so.
I think the cop may have overreacted a bit, but not much. He asks for ID and she gets all aggressive on him for "disrespecting" her. I didn't see the disrespect, at least initially.
And Crack, could you explain this racism that you are seeing here?
I'm not seeing it and need some 'splaining.
John Henry
To touch on the racial issue, if a cop stopped me on a street with that much traffic at that time of night, I personally, as a white male, would expect to say something like "Oh, excuse me, I was avoiding the construction. I'll get out of the street now." I would not expect to be frisked, show ID, or get a ticket.
I've actually had to explain this to foreign students, where police forces mean different things. The power play in that situation is to be polite and responsive. Being polite forces the cop to put his cards on the table right away. Being responsive means there's no need to give you a ticket to change your behavior. Initiating conflict gives the cop progressively more power the more you escalate.
Did anyone notice what the lawyer said?
"Her (the prof's) dress was up and he (the cop) was reaching for her anatomy and she didn't feel comfortable." (Quote approximate)
Sounds like lawyerly weasleiness to me. Her "anatomy" is anything from her head to her toes. The lawyer tried to make it sound like he was reaching for her snatch.
Seems highly unlikely given the camera and presence of another cop and, apparently, civilians.
F'in lawyers.
John Henry
Police Officer Who Sees the Bigger Picture says:
I am personally concerned with the prevalence of jaywalking in the Gay Community. Indeed, in my off-duty hours I often go to the gay clubs and try to counsel them on the ramifications of jaywalking: sometimes they are so appreciative that they give me a blow job. It is good to be appreciated. Sometimes force is needed to see the Bigger Picture.
I once had a cop pull a gun on me in a traffic stop on the NY Thruway.
It was in 1968 and I had been stopped for having temp tags.
I reached over into the glove box to get the registration and sat back up to the cop with is gun out.
He was as nervous as I was. He explained to me that I moved to fast and without explanation and he thought I might have had a gun in the glove compartment.
Did he overreact? Perhaps a bit but with as many cops as get shot, I can hardly blame him.
When my son was in HS, he and some buddies decided to make a film at our house. It involved some of them dressed up like ninjas with paintball guns. A neighbor across the way called the cops thinking something real was going on, not knowing it was a movie. By the time the cops showed up they had finished and had the guns down and the ninja hoods off.
I am scared to think what might have happened if the cops had showed up 5 minutes earlier. It would have been way to easy for a kid to have been shot. Cops don't know who these hooded people are. They don't know that the guns are not real. Pretty hard to blame them.
My rule anytime I am anywhere near a cop is to keep my hands clearly visible, move very slowly and explain any movement before I do it.
John Henry
Crack
"Whites are stupid. And malicious. There's no way to read this kind of stuff and think otherwise.
Just evil ignoramuses,..."
You could check the stats on the first statement.
When you become a victim class because of four hundred years of slavery and being put upon every day by white supremacists of every stripe you might get a little touchy about being called out for any little thing like speeding or jaywalking or all the other things that people get called out for every day without whining. But we understand fully that your job in life is to ignore assholes like the professor who jaywalked when most people do not. Because slavery. Because 400 years. So walk where ever you want to. Tell the fuzz to fuck off.
Nothing at the U of Arizona site but this From LinkedIn:
Penn State University
MA, PhD, English & Women's Studies (MA), Rhetoric & Composition (PhD)
2005 – 2011
Activities and Societies: Arnold Ebitt Interdisciplinary Rhetoricians (AEIR) Rhetoric Society of America (RSA) National Council of Teachers of English (NCTE)
University of Maryland College Park
BA, English, Anthropology
1999 – 2003
If you listen to the encounter from an earlier point than in the news report, it's not a close call. The officer was polite, but firm and calling her "ma'am". She wanted to argue and assert her privilege. She refused to comply, tried to involve third parties and generally asked for it. As for the skirt, the audio clearly demonstrates that he was trying to protect her dignity and he got a kick in the shins for his efforts.
It might also have helped if she hadn't dressed like a $20 hooker.
Here's the raw footage that the lefties didn't link to.
http://www.azfamily.com/video/raw/Raw-video-ASU-professor-arrested-after-struggle-with-police-265002461.html
As Chris Rock says, there are simple rules to follow if you don't want to get your ass kicked by the police, and those rules are color blind.
- Krumhorn
Crack, a question. It used to be pretty easy to get away with shooting someone for resisting arrest or while trying to escape. This applied afaik to all races though no doubt minorities hardest hit. I understand it is much harder now.
In those days, pre-miranda or whatever, do you think blacks were more compliant with police authority?
Pig cops running wild. OF COURSE, the university sided with the pigs instead of with faculty.
Who would have expected anything elese?
Can minor laws be enforced? Many seem to think the officer had no right to enforce an existing law. Why not just remove the j walking statute? Same with the the burnt out light for the license plate. No need to enforce that law either.
Silly, yes? Lots of comments at the link seem to think enforcing the law is somehow racist.
Asking for ID to get the proper information for the citation is not the same as 'papers pleas'.
And somewhere last week a poster took exception with victim classes having benefits. Here is just a single example of being a member of a victim class enjoying benefits. The benefit of acting like a jerk and placing a police office in the position of proving a negative. That they are not racist, homophobic etc,etc.
"Looks like some bad policing to me."
Did you watch the whole video?
It's hard to be a robot when you're a police officer, and it's really easy to monday morning quarterback our decisions.
But this Officer acted very professionally in attempting to discharge his duties.
Who walks around with ID on their person? I do not, unless I was driving to my destination. Having said tha, they were both being assholes.
About doing something EVERYBODY ELSE DOES.
That doesn't make it OK. Grow up...when children say "but everyone is else is doing it" we don't accept that as an excuse.
If you don't want to enforce the law, change it.
Fuck this place,...
Crack...just get the fuck out. Seriously...start a kickstart campaign to get the funds to move back to Africa, advertise on this site, and you'll be back to the motherland soon.
John Morales
Interesting comment on whether this was jaywalking under the law.
Maybe, if she was crossing the street at a more or less right angle, this would be true.
Looking at the unedited videotape I get the impression, though it is not clear, that she may not have been crossing the street but walking down the middle of it. I get this from the cop saying she was "obstructing traffic" and "walking down the street"
Anyone know if she was crossing the street or walking down its length?
The more I look at it, the more I think the woman is out of line, not the cop.
John Henry
Reverse the races. A white professor pulls rank on a black cop and tells him to shut down. Name the oppressor........I didn't see the video. Life is too short and there's too much quality porn on the internet to be bothered with such things. Still, my bet is that a fair number of whites will blame the cop, and not a single black will point the finger at the professor. This will be taken as further proof of white racism when really it indicates no such thing.
John Henry you are a weak subject not an American. The idea you can't blame cops for misusing deadly force is the stupidest comment in the history of the internet.
Only little bitch boy Americans think like you. The rest of the "free" world abhors cop use of deadly force AND THEY LARGELY PREVENT THE DEATHS. American bitches just explain it away as acceptable because being a cop is so tough.
Should crab fisherman get to kill people by mistake without responsibility because they have a dangerous profession? Firefighters? Inner city teaching can be dangerous too, and associated with Big Daddy Authority so you must allow them room to abuse students and whatnot right? They are Authorities!
http://www.steynonline.com/6317/gun-control
Crack needs to start a Kickstarter to get Ann Althouse banned or something.
John - so basically you're saying it's ok for cops to shoot first, ask questions later.
Fuck you...who are you to tell me I can't walk down the middle of the street, or cross anywhere I like, walking right in front of cars, secure in the knowledge that they will stop for me.
I don't give a shit about your laws, and I don't give a shit about the fact that I am inconveniencing you. I am special damn it...and you better not forget it.
Zach - what you're saying is the average cop is looking to body slam you. Just give him the slightest reason to do so and he'll do it.
...oh and I am going to park in the handicapped spaces and fire lanes too. Why the fuck should I walk farther than fifty feet?
Her first mistake was living in a "Stop and Identify" state.But it's Meadhouse's mistake as well. Shooow me your papersss.
If sexy black women on the faculty crossing the street are that much of a threat to authority games played by egotistical young male police officers, then maybe we need to use drones.
A simple remote drone fired missile in her ear and BOOM...no problem. That's what we did in Gulf War I & II. Iraqis civilians went boom like a video game. Why not the ASU faculty too?
Stay out of Oregon next weekend. You will have no choice to give a saliva or blood sample even if you're not drunk and you're driving.
I really don't understand what Crack is saying. Chicagoans jaywalk. Californians don't. I'd give him lip as well. Regional distinctions. I can't imagine getting a ticket for jaywalking cos that's what we do here. I even did it in GASP Milwaukee, but they have no real activity downtown especially compared to Chicago.
Now walking down the middle of the street....nope.
As to the gangbanger ask him if he were dropped in India, China, Korea, would his behavior be praised or frowned on?
Zach - what you're saying is the average cop is looking to body slam you. Just give him the slightest reason to do so and he'll do it.
I'm saying the opposite of that. If you are polite and compliant, the cop can't touch you without getting in trouble. That's where you have the upper hand. That's your power play.
Yelling at the cop, trying to get physical, trying to pull rank... these are all weak moves. You are simultaneously pissing him off and giving him options.
In this situation, the cop had the legal authority to stop the professor and ask for ID. The professor had the moral authority to go about her business without bothering anyone, except for maybe walking on the sidewalk instead of the middle of the street. If she simply presents her ID and agrees to walk on the sidewalk, the cop has no more moves. He has to let her go on her way.
If he tries to give her a ticket, then he's the one making a weak move. She can go to the police station the next day incensed that they're giving out tickets on a street with no traffic. Now the fact that she's black and he's white becomes incredibly significant, and the cop has nothing to stand on, because he doesn't have any record of her behaving badly.
Stupid people think that aggression is a strong move. It isn't. It's a narcissistic power fantasy to think that you can just blow up at people and tell them off and they'll instantly accede to your wishes.
Alex, Notquiteunbuckly,
I've been posting here frequently since about Day One. You apparently have not read much of what I have said, have you?
I am pretty hard core liberal (do I really need to add "in the libertarian/classical sense" anymore?) verging on anarchist. Also pretty hardcore on the 2nd and other Amendments.
When someone (cop or civilian) has a gun, and has any reason to suspect that you might have one and/or be contemplating shooting them, things can get real ugly real fast. That is why both sides have the need to be very careful.
You might get shot wrongfully and I am sure it will be very comforting to your family and others to know that you didn't mean any harm.
They would probably be more comforted if you had not gotten shot at all but YMMV.
Buck: I liked your analogy about fishing. Batshit stupid but that is what makes you so entertaining.
John Henry
Trad Guy said
"A simple remote drone fired missile in her ear and BOOM...no problem. That's what we did in Gulf War I & II. Iraqis civilians went boom like a video game. Why not the ASU faculty too?"
You may be on to something here. It would make all our colleges and universities as well as society in general better places if drones were randomly fired at people going into and out of the various "(mumble) Studies" departments.
John Henry
Is it against the law--where this happened, or anywhere in the U.S.--to refuse to show I.D. when asked for it by a police officer?
The officer's aggressive manner, given the petty violation of jay walking committed by the Professor, seems wildly disproportionate to the circumstances. As American citizens, we feel we are free to go about our business without being confronted so aggressively by police officers.
While the Professor should have maintained her cool--as she should have known that NOT doing so would lead to the inevitable outcome it did--many American citizens, so confronted, would feel similarly demeaned and would react with similar anger. The officer, a trained professional, presumably, should have approached her in a nonthreatening manner and not allowed himself to become angry. Body-slamming her to the ground was not necessary, but simply him expressing his anger at her for refusing to extend to him the servility police expect as their due when encountering citizens.
The cop is in the wrong. Crack tells it like it is.
Fascist state.
Chuck (way back) @10:55,
At first I thought this was a very bad move for an Ass't Prof. hoping to receive tenure. But your argument may have convinced me otherwise. I believe you exagerated the scenario for effect, but I think your basic analysis may be sound. It all depends on the timing.
Zach @ 4:30,
I've read the entire thread, and in this case I'm with you.
A little too much emphasis here on "winning" as in posturing and thinking you've somehow saved face, and not enough on winning. Let's get out of the immediate situation in one piece, and if you still want to raise a stink the next day, your hand is that much stronger.
And why do we need jaywalking laws? All of us are capable of deciding when it is safe to cross a street. Period. Want to encourage crosswalk use? Easy. Another law. Auto hits you in crosswalk- drivers fault. Auto hits you on the road not a crosswalk- pedestrians fault. Applicable in cities only. I'm not walking 1.1 miles to the corner and 1.1 miles back to cross the street to speak to my neighbor.
@Robert Cook - The law is called "Stop and Identify."
eric: Did you watch the whole video?
Yes.
You saw what you wanted to see in the video. (Just like Crack saw in my post a concurrence with his opinion that wasn't there.)
Nichevo,
"In those days, pre-miranda or whatever, do you think blacks were more compliant with police authority?"
I don't think overseer "authority" over blacks ever existed, as the professor showed here.
Gahrie,
"I don't give a shit about your laws, and I don't give a shit about the fact that I am inconveniencing you. I am special damn it...and you better not forget it."
Shit, blacks have been asking whites to honor them for centuries - now through reparations - and whites violently turn it down, so what laws are you suggesting should be respectable to who again?
I say lead by example, white people,...
I'd rather be stupid than fascist.
Fuck the state and Marxist classists.
Hey Cracked! Make room in your padded cell for Robert Cook.
Crack,
If you were a real person -- if you got out more often (and by that I mean "on the internet", no need for physical / social exertion ) -- you'd know there is a massive groundswell of opposition to police overreach among whites, including when the victim (note--no scare-quotes there) is black. One case in particular that I recall is from VA where a black guy open-carrying got hassled by the Fairfax police. MASSIVE (there's no way to emphasize the word MASSIVE enough) outpouring of support for this guy, by a white-majority readership, who didn't give the slightest crap what this guy's "color" was but DID care that his human rights were being violated by the police.
John Morales,
Ok, but do not--sorry make that DO NOT--take legal advice from the police. They are notoriously ill-informed about the actual laws in the jurisdictions where they work. sad, but sadly true.
. Want to encourage crosswalk use? Easy. Another law. Auto hits you in crosswalk- drivers fault. Auto hits you on the road not a crosswalk- pedestrians fault.
Have you ever hit someone? I have, and the police said it was there fault. I still felt like shit, and I don't know how I would have reacted if they had been killed or seriously injured.
I miss the days when I didn't notice the police. Now I have to, or else.
Black Americans have always had to deal with the police state. Now everyone else does, too. Nothing has changed if you're black. What's happened is that whites now have to deal with the same bullshit that blacks endured for centuries. Maybe we should have listened to all the complaints of police misconduct decades ago? Maybe we ignored them because it was just black people? Serves us right.
In a free country the police are accountable. In an unfree country they are not. In free countries the police depend on cooperation and use force as a last resort. In unfree countries force is the primary method of control (throwing around a middle aged woman? Think that would have happened 50 years ago?) When I see police in my small town carrying around M-16s in their cars and wearing body armor I really have to wonder. What are they scared of?
Things have changed. Law enforcement is increasingly paranoid, even though crime is by all measures becoming more rare. The public is resorting more and more to police power instead of social sanctions. It's our fault.
Crack said:
"Race was a factor, partly at least because she "chose to make it a factor."
Even with a 400 year history, SHE - not the white man stopping her for nothing - "chose to make it a factor"?
White people's "logic" is amazing,….
Do you disagree with my logic or my assumptions?
I assume that the cop intervened because the lady was walking in the street, not because she was a black lady walking in the street. I also assume that while it was a minor offense, it was against the law to walk where she was. I believe that if the lady had been willing to acknowledge that she should not have been walking across (in?) the street there, he would have given her an admonition not to do it again, and that would have been the end of it.
Had I been accosted by a cop in a similar situation I would have been compliant, polite and would have showed him my ID. I would have said I was sorry. I would have done so not because I was particularly sorry, but because it would be the best way to end the situation in a way favorable to me.
You are thinking that I would never have been stopped. I can't argue with that if you think it, but white people get approached by cops for minor offenses too. It does happen.
Where you and I differ is in the assumption of what the cop's motivation was. You assume it was race motivated. I assume it was not. \ I don't think there was enough context in the particular incident to tell if either of us is right, though the larger context of our lives certainly influences the differing conclusions.
(I made a further assumption that on reflection I can not justify based on the video. I assumed that she was uncooperative because she herself assumed that race was a factor in the cop's approach. That is why I said she chose to bring race into it. But maybe she just had a bad day. Maybe she doesn't like to be told she is wrong by anyone, regardless of race. Or maybe her life and her academic background have led her to decide not to back off from any provocation, even if ambiguously motivated.
But there probably was an easy way out of this, a face saving way for both. Neither of them chose to exercise the safety valve. Shame on them both.
It was an ugly little incident. I'm sorry things like this happen. I'm sorry we see them so differently. I will reflect on what you said but not bore you with more justification.
"Want to encourage crosswalk use? Easy. Another law. Auto hits you in crosswalk- drivers fault. Auto hits you on the road not a crosswalk- pedestrians fault."
Great idea. Then when I see some asshole walking across the middle of the street yakking on his cell phone I can just mow him down.
Cracky, I don't understand what you said. Fifty or a hundred years ago, whenever it was, black guy giving white cop shit over being caught dead to rights over even some petty offense like jaywalking, I assume you would agree Rastus was looking at a wooden shower and or a night in our of the weather, and if it escalated, two in the chest.
What I'm saying is, back when a whorishly dressed negress would be treated like you would expect a negro whore to be treated, and would have no accountability, would yon trollop invite that comeuppance, absent drink or drugs or insanity? Or would she move along, answer questions, cooperate?
Bob R.,
Thank you for the information re: "Stop and Identify" laws. They seem inimical to a free society, to understate the matter.
Kirk Parker,
"If you were a real person -- if you got out more often (and by that I mean "on the internet", no need for physical / social exertion ) -- you'd know there is a massive groundswell of opposition to police overreach among whites, including when the victim (note--no scare-quotes there) is black."
Where do you people come from? If I were "a real person"? If I "got out more"?
How about, if you weren't so condescending, and so in need of understanding race in America, before you try lecturing people who already do, Mr. Parker?
You seem convinced, that just because whites ran to a black's aid, it proves they're not racist - with history checking your every word against America's Racial Rule Book.
How did whites keep Uncle Toms, while still being violently racist to the vast majority of other slaves, Mr. Parker? Isn't that like today's conservatives, liking 3% of blacks (like Thomas Sowell) while blocking the 97% who disagree with all of them?
And - since race in America is a fluid concept - how did the Irish, Jews, and Italians became "white" when they were seen (once upon a time) as the same as blacks and dogs, Mr. Parker? Can dogs join that group yet?
Maybe there will be a "massive groundswell" of support for that, too, one day.
Still doesn't mean whites aren't racist,...
Jesus. Whatever happened to being polite when a cop stops you?
Big Mike said:
"Hey Cracked! Make room in your padded cell for Robert Cook."
Big Mike, I've lived in NYC for 33 years. For the first 8 years I lived here I worked at a hotel in Queens, by LaGuardia Airport. We had two people leave the hotel to enter the NYPD. One was a bellman, a smart, funny guy who I enjoyed very much. The other was a kitchen worker who I did not really know other than to say hello to.
The kitchen worker who had become a police officer came back one time to visit his friends still employed there. He sat in the lunchroom while I was in there having my lunch, and he was complaining about having been transferred from the Bronx to some other precinct in a higher-income area of the city. He complained that if they cursed at or were otherwise aggressive with the citizens in the higher income precinct, the citizens would complain and get the officers in trouble, whereas in the Bronx precinct they could treat the residents as they wished without fear of consequence.
The other guy, the bellman, continued moonlighting at the hotel to make extra money, and he would tell of seeing other officers harshly physically maltreating suspects; one example he provided that sticks in my mind is that some officers would drag people who had their hands cuffed behind their backs up staircases by their ankles in the precinct house.
This was 30 years ago and was private talk by two police officers. The fact is, many police officers come to view the citizens they purportedly serve with suspicion, and often with contempt. As revealed by the admission of the kitchen worker who was unhappy at having to restrain himself in the affluent precinct and treat the residents respectfully, many cops will treat citizens only with the degree of civility they believe necessary to avoid getting themselves in trouble. When they believe they can mistreat a citizen without consequence, many will freely do so.
j565
"'Crack wrote:
liking 3% of blacks (like Thomas Sowell) while blocking the 97% who disagree with all of them?"
"How are republlicans "blocking" 97% of blacks who disagree with them? "
IThese were accidental deletions and I'm trying to restore what I deleted. If there were other posts, just re-comment, please. Sorry for the mistake.)
jr565 wrote:
"Harold wrote:
'And why do we need jaywalking laws? All of us are capable of deciding when it is safe to cross a street. Period. Want to encourage crosswalk use? Easy. Another law. Auto hits you in crosswalk- drivers fault. Auto hits you on the road not a crosswalk- pedestrians fault. Applicable in cities only. I'm not walking 1.1 miles to the corner and 1.1 miles back to cross the street to speak to my neighbor.'"
"Well apparently a lot of people do need the law because they get hit while jaywalking. But regardless. The cops didn't write the laws they just enforce them."
jr565 wrote:
Robert Cook wrote:
The officer's aggressive manner, given the petty violation of jay walking committed by the Professor, seems wildly disproportionate to the circumstances. As American citizens, we feel we are free to go about our business without being confronted so aggressively by police officers.
well that's the problem isn't it? You feel free to do something when there's a law against it and think you should be able to break the law simply because you don't like it.
you aren't that free.
And you would argue with a cop about it? Who's in the right, you or the cop? Well the cop has the literal law on his side you have your opinion that the law sucks
And you think you should be able to not even show ID? How's he supposed to issue you a summons or a ticket, if warranted?
My one run in with the law was an example like this. And I was totally in the wrong. Back in college me and friends went out drinking in the winter.aftwr leaving the bar one of my friends was so drunk he lied down outside and wouldn't get up. Because it was so cold
And because I had drunken so
Much while waiting to get out friend up I had to go to te barhrooom. And the closest bathroom was a block away. So I went in he alley right next to me.
As luck would have it a cop car was driving by right when I went to the bathroom and they pulled me over and cited me for public urination. Now
Maybe the law is stupid, but they has me dead to rights. What am I going to do, fight the cops? He asked
For my id so he could
Issue a summons and I gave it to him. I was so naive about it that I thought he was simy sending me
The ticket which I was going to pay. Didn't realize
I had to go to court. So I forgot all about it.
A month later while heading off to work the cops knocked on my door and I got hauled off to jail for missing my court date. It ended up
Being one day of community service on my part, so no biggie. But I was in the wrong in both cases. The cop never threw me to the ground because I cooperated. If she did too he may have let her go without even issuing her a summons. But because she escalated and refused to cooperate he was in his rights to deal with her.
She therefore wasn't body slammed for jay walking but rather for starting a fight with a cop.that it became anything worse than a cop pulling you over for breaking some minor law (like spitting in the subway or being ten miles over the speed limit)was because SHE escalated it.
All of the above was written by the commenter, not me.
HEre's a longer uncut version of the video:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2674472/Moment-cops-threw-female-college-professor-ground-arrested-JAYWALKING.html
Note, it still misses the beginning portion of the altercation when the cops ask her to get out of the road. We don't know how long that took and how cooperative she was when they made the request.
But CLEARLY, the woman is resisting arrest. Resisting cops even being able to explain the law to her.
IF there were a textbook example of what someone should do to get a policeman to thrown them to the ground and arrest them this would be it.
If she had simply provided her ID would we even be talking about this? How many times does a cop have to tell someone to put their hands behind their back? You'd think at some point she might have listened to the cop once.
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