January 21, 2014

"The most basic, most rudimentary spiritual need of the Russian people is the need for suffering, ever-present and unquenchable, everywhere and in everything."

Said the Russian father of a NYT op-ed writer trying to explain why Russians don't get the American answer to the question "How are you?" The father was rejecting her offer of an explanation which was that the Soviets had "devalued 'fine'" with propaganda pushing you as "a citizen of a Communist utopia... to feel fine all the time (never mind the time you spent squabbling over the communal stove or waiting in a two-hour line to buy toilet paper)."

Is the American culture of answering "fine" pervasive? Are there not regional pockets of answering "Not dead yet" or some such thing? Certainly, there are numerous American eccentrics who take the question seriously and frankly tell you about travails and ailments. And there are others who take the relationship seriously and come up with something distinctive to make the social interaction come alive. Some of us are scrupulously honest and find it hard to say the ritualistic "fine." We may feel that we're displaying some humanity simply through using a few more words, like: "I'm doing very well, thanks."

The op-ed writer — Alina Simone — says the American-style "fine" "makes Russians think that Americans have no soul." I've known some subgroups of American culture where people look down on other Americans because of their rituals of pleasantry upon first or short meeting. There's something off about imagining that other people have no soul. Anyone who thinks that must regard himself as deep and the other as shallow. Is that not shallow?

39 comments:

George M. Spencer said...

The word 'fine' derives from a Latin word meaning "the end." Archaic meanings include thin and tenuous, as in fine line.

You could say it means "I'm getting by."

It takes much grinding to turn an iron bar into a needle…..Old Russian proverb.

Scott said...

It's not that we Americans are shallow. It's that we engage others easily, but have a very private, closely held aspect of character surrounded by a superego that is impossible to breach.

It drives the French crazy too.

Lewis Wetzel said...

I always answer "Rockin'!"
If there is a Russian watching I add a fist-pump.

SGT Ted said...

Someone needs to tell the Rooshians about what FINE stands for in America:

Fucked up, Insecure, Neurotic and Emotional.

They also need to explain American colloquialisms to the Rooshians so he gets that it's a greeting and not a genuine question, unless you are friends.

The Indian (Tandoori Indian, not Casino Indian) running the corner store always greets me with "Howoo doeen'?". I say "I'm good" and we are cool.

rhhardin said...

John of John and Ken used to rail about callers who started with pleasantries.

I said that you can train a professional not to start that way, but normal social rituals require it to mark an interaction start, so normal people will do it.

Apparently he listened because he stopped complaining.

Limbaugh accepts it but he responds so as to make the ritual as short as possible.

Jon Burack said...

I once had a snooty sister-in-law who used to joke about my choice of Wisconsin as a place to live as opposed to the East Coast. The "Have a nice day" Midwest she called it. Now I am in Michigan, where the days are still nice, mostly - but not at 2 degrees! Hooray for Flyover Country.

Ironclad said...

Greetings reflect cultural values, and American greetings are pretty much in the middle in terms of length and sincerity. Russians may wish to be taciturn, while Arabs feel the need to literally exchange pleasantries for a minute or so before moving toward any other part of a conversation. And that doesn't include the physical part - some don't touch, some squeeze the life of you and shower the air with kisses.

Just go with the local norm and consider it manners.

rhhardin said...

Among other things, it establishes a channel is open, you are responding to me, before the real topic is brought up.

At work on the phone, I answer "Hardin" rather than hello, where the channel operation test is not necessary and instead you can answer their first question right away.

Bob Boyd said...

I heard a a Russian response to "How are you". It was something like:

"Not as good as last year, but better than next year so average."

Anonymous said...

I don't know if people who get all literal-minded and bent about minor social rituals are shallow. I do assume they're kinda stupid.

Bob Boyd said...

What's the Russian for Embrace the Suck?

David said...

The question "how are you?" varies in meaning depending on tone, body language, context and other factors. It can mean little more than "hello." Or it can mean "tell me how you really feel."

It can make for some awkwardness when the inquiry is misinterpreted.

Then you just say "have a nice day."

See how easy it is?

traditionalguy said...

The Russian heritage is one of violent conquests of them by Vikings raiders, then by Mongol raiders, then by consolidating Czars like Peter the Great. That makes Russians ways of getting along require bowing to the Leader, keeping one's mouth shut, and creating a private life of soulish communications shared among the serfs.

The never conquered Scots Irish American settlers did the conquering themselves among a wilderness of savage tribes. They value a neighborliness greeting their neighbors and acknowledging them as equal free men in a mutual self defense pact. (See, Last of the Mohicans, and also actions by the Minutemen on April 19, 1775.)

The Russians can suffer in silence if it feels good to them like Doctor Zhivago the poet, but the hail fellow well met Americans souls will sing their Star Spangled Banner poem and mean every word of it.

Ann Althouse said...

"Limbaugh accepts it but he responds so as to make the ritual as short as possible."

Limbaugh has complained that people always ask how he is but then don't wait for him to answer. So now, a lot of people say "How are you?" and then wait, and then he answers. It's funny, because you aren't supposed to waste time on the radio and Rush knows it.

Unknown said...

There's a radio commentator I Austin who answers (on the air anyway) "How are you?" with, "DO you really care?" I hate that.

CWJ said...

Scott@6:55,

Good point. We warn our foreign exchange children when they first arrive with -

"Americans are friendly, but it's hard to make a friend."

Irene said...

My Mom, who is Lithuanian, does not understand the nature of the "How are you?" question. She takes it literally, and she usually answers, "Lousy."

Hagar said...

Me too. In Norwegian "How are you?" is a question, not a greeting, so my impulse is to start answering, but then I know that is wrong, and I should not do that, so my defensive reaction is to say "Pretty rotten!"
And the other person frequently responds with "Good, good," since "How are you?" here is just a ritualistic greeting and he/she was not much interested in hearing anything at all from or about me anyway.

Hagar said...

Plus, which, you, being a stranger, have no business inquiring into the state of my health or personal affairs, anyway!

JoyD said...

Sometimes it is mildly annoying (teller in a bank drive-through, disembodied voice chirping "how are you?") but I just play along ("fine, and you?"). It's just a common social nicety. Easier to just go with it than to grouse about it.
But here is something disturbing: Someone who says citizens of another country have no soul? Or someone's sister who dismisses an entire region of the country? Why do folks like that have such a need to artificially elevate themselves over others? They are revealing the discontent in their own lives.

Jane the Actuary said...

In various Asian countries, the "how are you" convention applies even more widely. When I get e-mails from colleagues in places like Japan, they always start with "I hope this e-mail finds you well" or something similar.

Hagar said...

"I hope this finds you well" is a pleasantry that does not require a response revealing details of your personal affairs.

virgil xenophon said...

My ans to "How are you" is usually "Tolerable at Best" (delivered in a jocular or grumpy tone, depending..) which often elicits either a laugh or a subdued "Oh, I see.." lol

rehajm said...

This is how to do it correctly.

SteveR said...

Carlin on "nice" and "fine"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X0MDBqyYZQ

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

Funnily, I don't find myself responding "fine" very often. It's more usually, "Oh, I'm OK" [or "Can't complain," or "So far, so good"]; "And yourself?"

tim maguire said...

"How are you?" is not an expression of interest in how you are. It is a nicer version of "hi" and that's it.

"Fine" is not an indication of how we are, it is how the respondent says "hi" and that's it.

If I know the person well AND we both have a minute or two, I may take it as a real question and give a real answer, but only under those conditions.

tim maguire said...

What I find interesting about "how are you" is how often you can respond with something else, even something quite different and, so long as it isn't more than a few words, the other person will react as though you did say "fine."

Known Unknown said...

Do they have Starbucks' barista in Russia? Because getting all up in my business in the drive thru is annoying enough in America.

Known Unknown said...

I never say fine. I usually say "good", unless I am clearly not good.

Anonymous said...

The Russian 'soulfulness' is the result of a milllenia of boots on their necks.

Anonymous said...

tim maguire:

"How are you?" is not an expression of interest in how you are. It is a nicer version of "hi" and that's it.

"Fine" is not an indication of how we are, it is how the respondent says "hi" and that's it.


Yes, exactly. It's a variant of "how do you do?", and it means "hello".

I thought we Americans were supposed to be the literal-minded boors. When an American doesn't understand foreign ways or speech, it's because Americans are ignorant yahoos. When foreigners fumble these things, it must mean Americans are soulless. Got it.

I've long noticed how this attitude extends well beyond casual speech rituals. When Americans go around foreign countries misunderstanding/breaking the local rules, they get sneered at for being for being so American - you know, so insensitive, so ignorant, such uncultured boors. It's time we put our foot down and started slamming visitors/newcomers for being so boorishly insensitive to and ignorant of our customs.

Nah, we'd never do that, we're too nice. It is the way of our people.

YoungHegelian said...

The Russians also seem to share with many of their European neighbors the idea that a sullen & taciturn public demeanor is somehow the "enlightened" way to deal with the world.

I think we're seeing in a nutshell here why Soviet alliances with many 3rd world countries fell apart. The Soviets/Russians always ended up hated by the locals. I wonder what part "enlightened sullenness" played in that creating that alienation.

Christy said...

I see friends shaking hands, sayin', "How do you do?"
They're really sayin', "I love you"

Econophile said...

Anglelyne, you are exactly right. Americans are held to absurdly high and contradictory standards. It's frustrating indeed that so many go along with these critiques.

The idea of even bothering to sneer at the minutia of others' customs was unknown to me growing up in the US. I didn't have a problem with, say, the Russians, so I foolishly took to heart some criticisms towards Americans. I think this is common. Now, however, I understand that outside the US, it's common to hate essentially every nation but one's own.

Why does the US get such a high share of disdain? Well, I am reminded of an Ani DiFranco lyric: "God forbid you be an ugly girl, 'course too pretty is also your doom, 'cause everyone harbors a secret hatred for the prettiest girl in the room."

Hagar said...

Lighten up, people.

Naked Surfer said...

Well, it's good that you're fine, and - and I'm fine. I agree with you. It's great to be fine. Now then, Dmitri ...

khematite@aol.com said...

I've always thought that Neil Young was pretty courageous for declaring that "Even Richard Nixon has got soul."

CWJ said...

Naked Surfer FTW.