"A year and a half ago, even the president of the United States opposes gay marriage. President Bill Clinton, a Democrat, signed DOMA into law. Now all of a sudden, after Obama changes his mind, the whole country supports gay marriage, and those who don't are bigots."
What accounts for this sudden and shocking spike in bigotry?
It depends on what the meaning of bigotry is. (To paraphrase that humanitarian, Bill Clinton.)
But — to quote Marbury v. Madison — as quoted in the DOMA case, United States v. Windsor, "‘[i]t is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is.’ ” Zivotofsky v. Clinton, 566 U. S. ___, ___ (2012) (slip op., at 7) (quoting Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 177 (1803))." (I know, who quotes Marbury like that? And what the hell was Zivotofsky v. Clinton? Was there some insuperable urge to bring up Bill Clinton? The Clinton in Zivotofsky was Hillary Clinton, in her Secretary of State role, and this was the case about the State Department's refusal to list Israel as the place of birth on a U.S. passport for a person born in Jerusalem.)
So if it's the Court's duty to define the terms, and opposition to same-sex marriage is defined as nothing but bigotry, then it's the Court's decision in Windsor that accounts for the sudden and shocking spike in bigotry.
But let's be clear about a few things.
1. The majority opinion in Windsor did not use the word "bigotry" (or "bigot"). That word appears in Chief Justice Roberts's dissenting opinion: "At least without some more convincing evidence that the Act’s principal purpose was to codify malice, and that it furthered no legitimate government interests, I would not tar the political branches with the brush of bigotry." Justice Alito also uses the word: "Acceptance of [Windsor's] argument would cast all those who cling to traditional beliefs about the nature of marriage in the role of bigots or superstitious fools."
2. The majority's expression is "a bare congressional desire to harm a politically unpopular group," which might sound extreme, but it appears in the case law going back to the early 70s, and it's a stock phrase used to characterize the government's interest when the Court is applying minimal scrutiny and therefore needs to say that there is no legitimate governmental interest.
3. What that "bare... desire to harm" language really means is: We don't want to have to heighten scrutiny for this discriminated-against group — they don't want responsibility for what that would mean in future cases — but we do want to be able to strike this down while staying at the minimal scrutiny level.
4. This doctrinal maneuver produces the strange impression that the Court is calling Bill Clinton and the majority of the members of the 104th Congress a bunch of bigots.
5. Now lots of traditionalists have the raw material to whine and cry about being called bigots. I doubt if that will work out very well for them, but they've been stewing in their own juice for a long time, and they're going to find it hard to stop. Unfortunately, same-sex marriage was originally presented as a conservative idea, and traditionalists could have gotten out in front of liberals on this issue if they'd listened to the original argument and predicted the future better, and now they'll have to scramble to improve their image. If they think crying about being called bigots — when, again, the majority didn't even use that word — is going to help, I just have to laugh. You took the opportunity to oppress when it was there, and now that it's gone, you want to say you are oppressed. Man up, losers. You lost. And you deserved to lose. Now, stop acting like losers. If you can. (I bet you can't!)
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 476 Newer› Newest»You know, I'm amazed at the number of people who don't realize that the court left part of DOMA intact...the part that says that states don't have to honor other states' SSM laws.
Marriages aren't generally given the deference that statutes are, and there's a history of states' not accepting other states' marriages due to issues like spouses' being under a certain age. So I really doubt that the SSM lobby will win any "full faith and credit" arguments...and of course, that clause could be applied both ways.
I also doubt the SSM lobby will win equal protection arguments, since marriage among consenting adults is allowed in every state. Especially since gays aren't a protected class.
That leaves the Tenth Amendment...going state by state, attempting to pass laws and change state constitutions to allow SSM. THAT is an uphill battle.
Drago, you quote Fen's Law so often, I suspect you ARE Fen. :)
Palladian is right when he says that this victory for gay rights is not the Democrats' victory.
Heck, Forget 96. A mere 9 years ago, in 2004, Bush framed much of his re-election campaign around the spectre of "teh gays" getting married. And what did most high profile Democrats do about it? Nothing. Prayed like hell that it would go away.
It was at that moment, one year removed from Lawrence versus Texas. It was an opportunity right then, for Kerry to speak out as the titular head of the party, against the bigotry in which the GOP national party was trading. And true to his form as a dipshit, Kerry balked.
So the way I see it is, yeah, to see some of these people celebrating now, it's like: where were you when the wind was not at your back?
Palladian is probably wrong, however, to assert that this is not Inga's victory. Anyone who has cared about the issue of gay rights all along, won yesterday. And there are (obviously) a helluva lot more Democrats in that number, than in the GOP.
How about a proposition?
People aren't really equal; blacks, whites and Hispanics and Asians and other.
"Equality" is a scheme by which the government is compelled to treat it's citizens, and now illegal aliens, equally... but that is ALL there is to "equality".
So that, when we refer to "Marriage Equality", we aren't really saying that marriage between a man and a woman is equal to a gay marriage.
Thanks rh for your comments.
"Marriage equality" is only the same scheme by which the government is compelled to treat its gay couples and its straight couples equally. but that is ALL there is to "marriage equality."
My proposition, which shall remain un-proposed, is untenable for the simple fact that the idea of "equality" may have progressed beyond a simple government compelling interest.
The idea of what "equality" means, permeates things we find inconvenient and unacceptable pertaining to our lot, our station. Is permeating things that do not necessarily pertain to a government transaction.
Very soon, the idea of capping the wages and earnings of the high wage earners, will not seem strange but only fair and just before the eyes of equality.
And if you are against that, wage equality, it will be because you are a mean, avarous and a cold hearted sob.
Inga: "Palladian epitomizes just how selfish libertarians are, oh well. I'm glad most gay folks are liberals"
LOL
It didn't take Inga long to regroup under a new fallback topic!
Inga, explain this for us:
Why is it people who earn what they have are "selfish" for wanting to keep more of it (not all of it, more of it), but the people, like you, who want to confiscate it are not "selfish"?
Inga: "Drago, you quote Fen's Law so often, I suspect you ARE Fen. :)"
I can't argue with that. There are so many occasions for which it is appropriate to mention.
Though I should be seeking some sort of compensation for it, since I'm a white conservative and therefore inherently and inescapably greedy and selfish.
Left-liberals anywhere, but especially in places like Madison, Colorado, and Boston/Cambridge, are not known for their intellect, their honesty, or their prescience.
Certainly the majority party currently occupying our statehouse are as dumb as fucking stumps. But Madison, the city, is one of the smarter and well run cities in the U.S.
MADISON, Wis. -
Luminosity ranked Madison one of the smartest cities in the U.S. based on raw cognitive performance.
Madison was ranked No. 8 on the smartest cities list.
Luminosity creates brain-training exercises and looked at 3 million people in the U.S. between 18-75 years old who played several of their brain-training games to come up with their conclusions Link.
I think this is the sort of enraged poking-with-a-stick you get, when several of you made (quite hilarious) fun of Althouse's "creepy asscracker" post.
Sure, you had your fun, but it must have been quite humiliating for Althouse. They don't have actual black people in Wisconsin -- she has to get all of her information on black culture from reruns of The Fresh Prince of Belair.
And...
I'm sorry professor for earlier suggesting you might have been dishonest.
You aren't dishonest... you are desirous of things that have not yet come to pass. is all.
B Hussein Soetero- "I won".
Althouse- "You lost".
Harrogate: "Palladian is probably wrong, however, to assert that this is not Inga's victory."
Actually, he is precisely right.
garage: "MADISON, Wis. -
Luminosity ranked Madison one of the smartest cities in the U.S. based on raw cognitive performance.
Madison was ranked No. 8 on the smartest cities list."
Moron boy strikes again!!
The survey was a self-selected survey.
Therefore, MEANINGLESS.
LOL
You probably needed more than a high school level "Intro to Algebra I" course to understand that though.
Garage never fails to fail.
Drago, are you that sure, that Inga doesn't actually care about gay rights? Evidence? Or are you just full of shit?
Petunia, SCOTUS left most of DOMA standing.
Interesting to see who's paying attention.
Inga said...
Teh Gays will take over uteri all over this country, do not resist their power. Next.....the churches.
Evil laugh........
Who thinks she's joking?
Yes, it is Palladian, it IS my victory as an American, who sees a wrong and wants it made right. Stop being such a selfish little bitch.
Palladian epitomizes just how selfish libertarians are, oh well. I'm glad most gay folks are liberals.
So much for the She Devil of the SS' concern and tolerance for homosexuals.
Alex said...
No spike.
The Lefties are brainwashed fools and the Democrats are hypocritical politicians.
So says edutcher, resident Althouse hillbilly bigot.
So says Alex, brainwashed Lefty fool, hypocritical Democrat, and full-time moby.
Therefore, MEANINGLESS
You're meaningless, but you already knew that.
I'm proud to be personally responsible for the destruction of everything good and righteous.
A Freudian Slip! That's right, ump, he said it tongue-in-cheek and we were supposed to take it tongue-in-cheek but then he tried to stretch the double into a triple, changed his mind and scampered back toward second but he didn't make it, ump, a beeyooteeful sweep tag by our All American straight shortstop and he was OUT! and the Republic lives! ump, the Republic lives. Whew, that was close.
Harrogate: "Drago, are you that sure, that Inga doesn't actually care about gay rights? Evidence? Or are you just full of shit?"
You are probably just purposely not getting the point.
Or maybe you're that dumb.
Once again, for the "slow ones" (garage, perk up), the point is that when the dems were busy going along with DOMA those on the left, like you, never called them on it.
You were perfectly content to let them continue without penalty.
All that time, principled folks (who I happen to disagree with) were fighting the "good fight" to try and win recognition for SSM.
And now, now that they have succeeded, all of you who were just hanging around with your unprincipled political posturing want to claim credit.
Further, you're happy to turn right around and use terms to describe republicans in a way that you refused to use on dems, even though the positions of dems 6 months ago and republicans today are identical.
In fact, you could say that the dems finally caught up with Dick Cheney on SSM.
A position the left never credited him with...for other political reasons.
Your stand was never principled.
QED
Duh.
"Drago, are you that sure, that Inga doesn't actually care about gay rights? Evidence? Or are you just full of shit?"
6/27/13, 3:06 PM
OMG, how did Drago get into my brain, that damn aluminum foil hat didn't work!
He probably has brown eyes.
SSM is just the Trojan horse that allows the Myrmidons of the cultural revolution to continue the attack on traditional values.
Most in fact the vast majority of homosexuals who fight for SSM will most likely never get married. Or just use it for financial purposes. Not procreation or child rearing or even for love itself. It will be a strictly political construct.
SSM is just one more stick to beat out the traditional values that have served us so well for thousands of years.
Much the same as their successful effort to get the Jerry Sandusky's of the world installed as Boy Scout leaders.
Little by little many bastions of traditionalism has fallen to the assault of the avant-garde nihilism
that the fashionable cloak themselves in to separate their enlightened sensibilities from the rest of the Babbitt's that they scorn from their ivory towers.
Read that last paragraph again.
garage: "You're meaningless, but you already knew that"
Look garage, we get it.
You don't understand the first thing about statistics.
Or geography.
Or biographies.
Take a hint.
Read a book.
As far as ideology goes, perhaps you can't be hostile to religion and remain a conservative in the U.S. Althouse expresses openly today some hostility towards opponents to same sex marriage, at least to a social and religiously conservative core who feel under assault on this issue.
To her credit, she also gives the feminists grief for their selling out to Clinton, their ideological rigidity, and the sad display of gynosaurs roaming the landscape, munching on foundation money and shutting down dissent as a new crop of true-believers and activists grows up.
Inga is a perfect example of the kind of ideologue who wants to believe desperately in a political ideology and lives her life accordingly, looking for loke minds and enemies and constant, pathetic approval for her identity.
How do you know I never called them on it Drago? You're right that there are a lot of hangers-on coming out of the woodwork on this issue, but he broad brush with which you are painting is mitigating the good points.
Inga: "OMG, how did Drago get into my brain, that damn aluminum foil hat didn't work!"
I don't need to get into your brain.
I only have to observe the actions of the left and take my lessons from that.
Actions.
Not thoughts.
Which separates me from the left, who are all about thought crimes.
You don't understand the first thing about statistics.
Yes, who can forget your trenchant polling analysis in the 2012 elections. That was something to behold!
As for Cheney being right on gay marriage before most high profile Dems. Yes, he was.
Harrogate: "How do you know I never called them on it Drago?"
Maybe you did, maybe you didn't.
Lets say you did.
Who cares?
Who on the left of any import did?
None.
Point made.
Harrogate: "You're right that there are a lot of hangers-on coming out of the woodwork on this issue,.."
Yes, that was Palladian's and my point.
Harrogate: "..but he broad brush with which you are painting is mitigating the good points."
Nah.
There still good points.
garage: 'Yes, who can forget your trenchant polling analysis in the 2012 elections."
I performed no polling analysis.
To perform polling analysis I would have to have seen the data.
I realize as a high school lard about you fail to recognize this.
Provide me the data and I can tell you what you want to know.
Without data, there is no "analysis".
I've said this about a thousand times.
But then, you've spent a lifetime ignoring the "hard stuff".
Why should this be any different.
Harrogate: "As for Cheney being right on gay marriage before most high profile Dems. Yes, he was."
Yes, he was.
And he was given no credit for it by those on the left.
None. At all.
For other political reasons.
QED
"Who cares?"
Well, I for one do. I like to know where people actually stand on things before I engage them on their stances.
And regardless of the lack of high profile Dems fighting for gay rights in the recent past, the party and its members still clean the GOP clock on the issue .
"Harrogate: "Palladian is probably wrong, however, to assert that this is not Inga's victory."
Actually, he is precisely right."
6/27/13, 3:03 PM
Palladian: "Victory is MINE, mine.... Oh my Precious...." While his liberal gay brethren and sisteren were busy fighting the good fight, he was laying back on his laurels, waiting for them to bring him the victory, so HE as a gay rightist libertarian could claim it.
What did his political cronies do? They tried their damn best to see that gay people of America were denied their rights. It's a truth he hasn't grasped.
Democrats DID eventually see the wrongness of DOMA, did Republicans?
Myrmidons. Too lazy to look it up. Sounds like sea creatures. Oh well, fall ever behind, ric, ever further and further behind.
"Who cares?"
Well, I for one do. I like to know where people actually stand on things before I engage them on their stances.
And regardless of the lack of high profile Dems fighting for gay rights in the recent past, the party and its members still clean the GOP clock on the issue .
Harrogate: "And regardless of the lack of high profile Dems fighting for gay rights in the recent past, the party and its members still clean the GOP clock on the issue."
You keep making my point for me.
Not necessary.
I don't require the help.
When the dems proclaimed themselves in precisely the same boat as the Repubs, the left shut up about it.
Politics.
Not principle.
QED
Inga keeps digging.
Inga: "Democrats DID eventually see the wrongness of DOMA, did Republicans?"
But before, when the dems DIDN'T see the wrongness of DOMA, and in fact, fought for it and signed it into law the left was almost universally SILENT.
Politics.
Not principle.
QED.
Politics not principle indeed, but that's not everyone's mantra. That's MY point.
Harrogate: "Politics not principle indeed, but that's not everyone's mantra. That's MY point."
Hey, I was here first.
In fact, "firstest with the mostest".
Drago keeps trying to saddle the left with the right's lack of principles, won't work.
re: semantic games
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of defining (e.g. "Urban Dictionary"), redefining (e.g. slang), or otherwise exploiting (e.g. euphemisms) semantic constructs with the intent to deceive for purpose of increasing leverage.
Okay I looked it up: myrmidons = minions.
Jay Retread,
The Republicans will continue to be more of a regional party, dominated at the national level by members from the south.
This is why the last four Republican candidates for national office were from Arizona, Alaska, Massachusetts, and Wisconsin.
Drago you are not being intellectually honest but at an anonymous blog comment board so it's fine, no harm done.
Inga: "Drago keeps trying to saddle the left with the right's lack of principles, won't work."
LOL
Inga keeps trying to rewrite history.
In the same way that the Washington Post prints articles about Obama's snooping program and yet puts pictures of Bush and Cheney next to it, Inga, like all good leftists, would like to airbrush the history around DOMA.
Before too long it will be showing up in textbooks that Clinton tried but just couldn't stop those dastardly republicans from enacting DOMA.
LOL
Inga is a parody of a leftist.
Harrogate: "Drago you are not being intellectually honest .."
What am I being intellectually dishonest about?
By the way, on what will forever be known as the asscracker thread, bgates had, at 11:28am, one of the funniest comments ever left on the Althouse blog.
But now we're all paying for it. Now we're all bigots and losers.
Thanks a lot, bgates.
Pastafarian, I did read that earlier.
That's Iowahawk level funny right there...
Drago represents his side well. And that is not being complimentary.
But most people of principle and honesty see what has happened here, a WRONG has been righted, God Bless America.
Michelle: "This is why the last four Republican candidates for national office were from Arizona, Alaska, Massachusetts, and Wisconsin."
Michelle, you misunderstood Jay Retread.
He meant "south of the Arctic"
Inga: "..a WRONG has been righted.."
A "Wrong" for which the dem members who helped create it, helped fight for it, and signed it into law were never called to account for it by members of the left, like Inga.
Never.
Again, political. Not principled.
QED
It's right there in front of you.
No wonder you can't see it.
Inga and Harrogate,
Now that Barack Obama has searched his conscience and decided that, yes, gay couples ought to be able to get married, and Hillary Clinton has searched hers and decided "Yes, me too!", and DOMA has been overturned so that it is no longer on Bill Clinton's plate, what do we make of those who voted for the three of them when they embraced what is now seen as obvious bigotry? Was Bill Clinton a bigot when he signed DOMA? Were Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama bigots when running in 2008? Or were they all non-bigots pretending to be bigots because, as everyone knows, the American electorate is mostly made up of bigots? It really has to be one or the other.
You know, I'm amazed at the number of people who don't realize that the court left part of DOMA intact...the part that says that states don't have to honor other states' SSM laws.
Because no one expects that to last longer than the next court case......
Gahrie: "Because no one expects that to last longer than the next court case......"
This.
Palladin, I don't hate you. But sometimes I get you mixed up with that Pastafarian guy. And I do hate him. Not because of anything he's written but just because of his avatar. I have a recovered childhood memory of being abused by Andre the Giant and it biases my view of professional wrestlers and those who might look like them. It was quite painful as best I recall.
I performed no polling analysis.
To perform polling analysis I would have to have seen the data.
If you admit you were wrong I won't post what's at my fingertips. Cuz, tis pretty funny!
The long national nightmare is over, and a veil has lifted: At last, asscrackers can also get the marital deduction, and save hundreds of dollars on their income tax.
Wow. Hundreds of dollars. I'm sorry, I have to take a second, I'm overcome with pride in my nation, and with gratitude to The Lord...
...
OK, I'm back. Unfortunately, the average household income of gay couples is well above average, so that makes this a thoroughly regressive change in the tax code -- a tax break for the wealthy, for the 2% if not 1%.
Yay Team Blue, you stepped on your dick again.
Michelle, I believe it is option 3. But I want to ad this important rider: they were in their cowardice wrong about the electorate . All it took was for someone to forcefully fight for it.
Marijuana legalization will be much the same. Broad majority of Americans are ready for it in my view but neither party machinery seems to realize it. But eventually somehow, that ball will get rolling too. Which party will be the first to get out in front on that one?
Sneak peek:
"This is the only thing keeping obama "afloat" in the polls."
LOLZY
Baron Zemo
SSM is just one more stick to beat out the traditional values that have served us so well for thousands of years.
Do you mean to include the parts about men marrying 13 year olds and polygamy and all the other ways that marriage has been defined in the past? Or do you really believe that traditional marriage 200 or 500 or 1000 years ago meant two nice 25 year olds marrying for love. Sheesh!
Little by little many bastions of traditionalism has fallen to the assault of the avant-garde nihilism...
I come here to read absurd comments and this one just about takes the cake. I'm sure more are coming. Thanks for the laughs.
Ah, yes, I remember you well, Rabel. As for the pain...well, what would you expect from an ass-cracking?
harrogate said...
As for Cheney being right on gay marriage before most high profile Dems. Yes, he was.
I don't know if he's right, I do know he has a daughter which undoubtedly influenced his opinion and the way Edwards tried to get him to renounce her made sure everyone knew who should be Veep in '04.
Inga said...
Democrats DID eventually see the wrongness of DOMA, did Republicans?
Republicans saw it for what it was. Demos saw the expediency.
Drago keeps trying to saddle the left with the right's lack of principles, won't work.
The She Devil of the SS projects better than AEG.
PS The Myrmidons (from the kingdom of Myrmidon) was the regiment commanded by Achilles in the Trojan War and were the toughest fighters in Greece.
As ric notes, it came to mean minion and later hired muscle.
They didn't call him the Giant because of his height.
Mitchell the Bat said...
Bigotry has its uses.
There's an evolutionary explanation, probably.
*****
There's not much of an "evolutionary explanation" for homosexuality, is there..
garage mahal said...
Sneak peek:
"This is the only thing keeping obama "afloat" in the polls."
Then it's not working too well.
Last I saw he's down around 43.
Drago:
Having said that it appears clear that the range of outcomes include Romney big (well over 300 EV's) all the way down to obama eke's out (by 1 state) a win.
Me:
For the record, I'll go bold and predict 305 EV's for Obama/Biden.
How did that turn out for ya math wizard? Oh, I know, Obama won 332 electoral votes to Romney's 206
LOL
If this was intended to smoke out the ugly it sure succeeded. It's hard to decide which side is the ugliest, but it doesn't change the fundamentals. If both sides are ugly, and this seems to prove they are, I'll have to stick to reason and history to defend my position call it bigoted if that makes you happy. It seems words are not quite as meaningful as they once were, law is not quite as reliable as it once was and people are not quite what we assign them to be in our imaginations.
Inga do you ever stop to reflect at all?
"Inga do you ever stop to reflect at all?"
I highly doubt it, judging from that disgusting bug eyed avatar she is inflicting on this site, mirrors break the instant she glances into them.
"Based on the #'s alone I'd give Romney a 90% chance for victory, giving where all the polls are"
#DragoMath
Thank you Matt.
You play your role perfectly. Continue to laugh at traditional people and their silly traditional values.
In fact why not take a victory lap much like the professor.
All your dreams of SSM are coming true.
#DragoMath
What sort of math did they teach you during your highest academic achievements Bitchtits? Counting on both fingers and toes?
Here is some math for you. 1 Obese Idiot + 0 College degrees - 1 wife - Custody of 1 child = Bitchtits Mahal.
Math is fun.
What sort of math did they teach you during your highest academic achievements Bitchtits?
I was taught well enough that, unlike you, I don't have to waste my life going around the internet pretending I'm some sort of "lawyer". Sucks to be you, I know.
Matt said...
Do you mean to include the parts about men marrying 13 year olds and polygamy and all the other ways that marriage has been defined in the past?
If Matt were smart he'd ask himself why those relationships are no longer eligible for marriage and exactly how that came about. The answer is because society didn't think it appropriate. If he were smart he would then ask what will happen how that the courts are consistently ruling that society no longer has a say.
It's also strange to note that Matt concludes the very progress we've made proves the mechanisms that drove that progress illegitimate. It's a strange believe completely dependent on ignorance. But then most leftists have no understanding of how society evolved. That type of understanding might encourage people to think for themselves so the academy replaced it with the soundbyte cliches leftists believe are knowledge.
"Man up, losers. You lost. And you deserved to lose. Now, stop acting like losers. If you can. (I bet you can't!) "
It's this kind of childish, assholish rhetoric that makes me embarrassed to support gay marriage. I almost voted for a constitutional amendment referendum in my state to ban it just because I was so torn. Do I support equal rights for someone else -- something that doesn't directly affect me -- at the cost of being personally sickened by the gloating assholes when the referendum fails? After about 20 seconds staring at it, I eventually voted "no" on the amendment.
At times I regret it. Right now is one of them.
Grow up. If you can. (I bet you can't!)
garage mahal said...
Having said that it appears clear that the range of outcomes include Romney big (well over 300 EV's) all the way down to obama eke's out (by 1 state) a win.
For the record, I'll go bold and predict 305 EV's for Obama/Biden.
How did that turn out for ya math wizard? Oh, I know, Obama won 332 electoral votes to Romney's 206
LOL
No, Choom stole about 100 electoral votes
from the 20% of OH votes that were fake
from the 100% vote tallies in Philadelphia, Cleveland, and elsewhere
from the voting machines that flipped every 10th Romney vote to Choom
from the party workers that voted multiple times
from the faked absentee ballots
from the voters from "out of state" bussed in to WI, NC, and ME, among others
from the military ballots that were sabotaged
Tell me, genius, how easy is it to predict when you know you're side's stealing the outcome?
Stick that up your LOL.
wyo sis said...
Inga do you ever stop to reflect at all?
If she did, she'd turn to stone.
You have not covered yourself in glory today, Althouse.
Of course a victory for SSM is just the beginning.
There are many more barriers to break down and traditional mores and values to destroy.
Shorter Baron: "No, I can't grow up."
Or: "ermahgerd."
Polygamy and marriage to 13 year old boys are sure to be on the agenda as well.
It is only a matter of time.
This doctrinal maneuver produces the strange impression that the Court is calling Bill Clinton and the majority of the members of the 104th Congress a bunch of bigots.
If they aren't saying it, they are insinuating it.
Sorry, but that is simply the case. Look at Kennedy's sweeping language on gay marriage, and you'll recognize that.
Shorter harrogate:
Anything goes.
"Polygamy and marriage to 13 year old boys are sure to be on the agenda as well."
I wonder why, using the gay marriage arguments, why Matt would oppose such things? Particularly the polygamy. He doesn't want people to marry the people they want? What a bigot.
And we have Inga, the liberal now saying she supports polygamy. How soon until Inga starts calling Matt a bigot for not supporting poygamy.
I am sure that Matt does not oppose such things. Or he shouldn't.
It is just then next logical step.
Baron Zemo said...
Polygamy and marriage to 13 year old boys are sure to be on the agenda as well.
Polygamy and marriage to 1 year old boys are sure to be on the agenda as well.
FIFY
NAMBLA (Sex before 8, or else it's too late) has to have its way, too.
BTW Has anyone ever summoned up the courage to ask how many children in homosexual households are molested, or it that something that only happens with those awful breeders?
Anything goes.
@ Althouse
You're fucking kidding me right? Andrew fucking Sullivan?
DOMA instructs all federal officials, and indeed all persons with whom same-sex couples interact, including their own children, that their marriage is less worthy than the marriages of others. The federal statute is invalid, for no legitimate purpose overcomes the purpose and effect to disparage and to injure those whom the State, by its marriage laws, sought to protect in personhood and dignity.”
If you support DOMA you support saying that certain marriages are less worthy than the marriages of others. And that you are supporting harm and injury for no legitimate purpose.
How is that not saying you're a bigot? Because he couched it in legalese?
I happen to think Althouse is both a bigot and a hypocrite, and I say that as a long time reader and admirer. She always cared about blatant signs of racism, especially mock lynchings. But she never explained why she turned a blind eye to the mock lynching of Sarah Palin and John McCain in West Hollywood around Halloween in 2008. I've always assumed that her silence was tacit approval of it because it was perpetrated by gays. But being a bigot and a hypocrite is not a fatal error in my book so I keep reading her.
garage: ""Based on the #'s alone I'd give Romney a 90% chance for victory, giving where all the polls are"
#DragoMath"
Interesting.
LOL
Did you happen to "forget" to provide the entire posting?
LOL
Oh and Andrew Sullivan? How could any decent person give him a pass for what he did to Palin, not to mention Romney? He should be mocked into apology before he does it again because he will do it again.
Here's what garage "forgot" to highlight:
garage: "C'mon Drago, what's yet prediction? You seem pretty sure about everything."
LOL
Thats the thing about mathematical illiterates, you don't understand probability/stats.
I'm confident within a particular interval.
That's all.
And with the assumption that some past human behavior can be modeled to some extent at a macro level.
Having said that it appears clear that the range of outcomes include Romney big (well over 300 EV's) all the way down to obama eke's out (by 1 state) a win.
That's the range.
Based on the #'s alone I'd give Romney a 90% chance for victory, giving where all the polls are (even the lefty polls which show Romney leading obama on all the primary issues).
Garage must have glossed over this part:
I'm confident within a particular interval.
That's all.
And with the assumption that some past human behavior can be modeled to some extent at a macro level.
Of course, anyone familiar with basic statistical analysis would understand that and what it means.
Garage possesses no basic understanding of stats, therefore doesn't understand what it means.
garage: "How did that turn out for ya math wizard?"
I'd be interested in seeing your data.
You know.
The numbers that you used for your analysis and modeling.
Should be riveting.
Drago the only D I ever got in my life was in statistics, and I understand your point. I think garage does too, but it would look like capitulation if he acknowledged it.
There's a razor thin difference between "winners" and "losers" in these matters, but the stakes are huge.
Whew, being "clear about a few things"
can be, ironically, tricky. Re: In your #2, regarding the use of this quote:
"a bare congressional desire to harm a politically unpopular group,"
Considering current times, I first thought "unpopular group" meant "bible supporters". I.e., Christians.
Sad, isn't that??
Whew, being "clear about a few things"
can be, ironically, tricky. Re: In your #2, regarding the use of this quote:
"a bare congressional desire to harm a politically unpopular group,"
Considering current times, I first thought "unpopular group" meant "bible supporters". I.e., Christians.
Sad, isn't that??
Lem said...
To the best of my recollection Althouse has never tackled Obamcare's tax-is-a-penalty-until- its-not-and-back-again lawful experiment.
I suspect its because it's a useful methodology for making something up.
6/27/13, 1:29 PM
Actually that shit-storm starts next year when the tax is implemented. Remember Roberts ruled it's a tax but the court did not rule what kind of a tax it is. Someone will pay it and then challenge the tax. Thats where the fun begins. Is it an income tax or is it a tax on income like FICA? If it's a FICA type tax then the law as written becomes dicey. Since so-far there has been no determination of what type of tax it is and no one has paid it yet (and challenged the payment) its not a slam dunk the law as it is will survive another judicial review. It looks like the court deferred and punted to Congress for now.
As for the DOMA and Prop 8 cases, Inga & Co. think them a victory but in fact they are as of right now no such thing. Prop 8 is still the law of California despite the district court ruling. California has to abide by it's constitution which requires that all of the state's laws are deemed valid unless ruled otherwise by an appellate court. The Supreme Court vacated the 9Th Circuit appellate ruling so as far as California is concerned it still has to abide by Prop 8. So the state AG will have to file a new appeal defending Prop 8 in the 9Th circuit and pray that it looses since without an appellate decision the state can't declare Prop 8 invalid since it doesn't have the authority to do so. So where exactly is the legal victory? The DOMA ruling left the rest of the law standing and the section invalidated simply requires the federal government to recognize for federal purposes SSM only where it currently exists and for only those who are legally SSM and residing in those states. It doesn't impose the rest of the states to recognize SSM or require the feds to apply SSM federal benefits to legally married SSM couples if the move to a state that doesn't permit SSM. While that is a partial victory it is hardly an overwhelming victory and it contains a small amount of defeat since it appears that the ruling means the states are the sole decider's for now who can and who can't get married.
Wyo Sis: "I think garage does too, but it would look like capitulation if he acknowledged it"
Actually, he doesn't.
Here's one of the better rundown of where how well a large number of polling firms actually did.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/10/which-polls-fared-best-and-worst-in-the-2012-presidential-race/?_r=0
The methodologies are all over the place and all consistently overestimated the Repub turnout.
That is probably the most surprising result of the election.
In an election where Obama lost around 3.5 million votes (from 2008), the real stunner was that Romney only outperformed McCain by 1 million.
Romney failing to outperform McCain significantly really impacted key states (like Ohio, Florida, etc).
That indicates, once again, that the early and unanswered attacks against Romney in about 12 key states paid huge dividends by driving down Rep turnout.
Sort of what was intended by the IRS taking a whack out of the tea party groups that played such a strong role in the Republican wipeout of dems at all levels of government in 2010.
Baron Zemo
You play your role perfectly. Continue to laugh at traditional people and their silly traditional values.
There you go again.... I'm not laughing at traditional people [whatever that means] or traditional values [which you must admit change every few decades]. I'm laughing are your rhetoric. I see gay marriage as a human rights issue. You see nothing but the sexual act.
The same type of arguments about society and the end of the world were made by people when the slaves were freed and later when African Americans got the vote and then again when they were allowed to marry whites. Conservatives always feel the world is falling apart.
That is what is laughable. It's not falling apart. More importantly are you telling me that allowing gays to marry personally affects your traditional beliefs? Are you suddenly turning into a nihilist? If not then why would you assume others are? Gays have always existed in society. We now allow them to be recognized. You want them back in the closet?
What's most hilarious about garage's callbacks are that he thinks they prove his "point".
There is no more consistent theme on the Althouse boards than garage linking to things he thinks proves him point but which, upon review, generally disprove what he is asserting.
What's really and truly hilarious is that despite hard evidence and links to prove them, rightist's deny deny deny. THAT is intellectual dishonesty at its finest. Is it truly possible to deny reality when faced with it? Some are expert at this practice.
Inga
You might be the current expert in the denial of reality on this site, so I guess you might be right.
Wyo Sis, I doubt that. You wouldn recognize reality if it hit you upside your derrière. Continue to believe the end is nigh and doom is upon us, because a group of Americans were given the same rights you enjoy.
You are acting like a sore loser.
Reality and truth are two different things.
Consequences follow actions. That is truth. When the consequences come reality might look a little different to you, and to your grandchildren who will inherit our consequences.
Yes, I'm a sore loser if that's how you define it.i'm pretty sore about what happens next.
Rights aren't "given" they are or they are not. If government can "give" rights it can take them away.
Pretty gloomy to contemplate.
Matt said: I see gay marriage as a human rights issue.
Maybe it is--but it's not the paramount one of our lifetimes--people are actually dying and being tortured in other countries. Other see it as a big distraction.
I'm more bothered by the rites issue because I think that many gays appear to be bothered by their exclusion from the rite in most churches. So instead of just accepting it, they just say target religious people and call them bigots. It's as if they want God's approval and they're damned sure going to make sure that human beings give that to them instead. And if they don't, then they just say oh well, man just made up God anyways so let's trash the whole tradition.
Rights as an American under the Constitution. Liberty for me, but not for thee, hmmm?
Ah well, proceed.
wyo sis
law is not quite as reliable as it once was and people are not quite what we assign them to be in our imaginations.
What exactly does that mean? Do you have a concrete example to illustrate what you mean?
Polygamists and polyamorists get it (to the conserternation of Matt apparently:
"We polyamorists are grateful to our [LGBT] brothers and sisters for blazing the marriage equality trail,"
"A favorable outcome for marriage equality is a favorable outcome for multi-partner marriage, because the opposition cannot argue lack of precedent for legalizing marriage for other forms of non-traditional relationships," she said.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/24/polyamorous-advocate-gay-marriage-blazing-the-marriage-equality-trail
What were gay marriage advocates saying about how this had nothing to do with polygamy (or bigamy or marriage between brothers and sisters)?
The opposition cannot argue lack of precedent for legalizing marriage for other forms of non-traditional relationships, indeed.
You are acting like a sore loser.
As if you didn't the entire Bush terms. Hypocrite. Grow the fuck up, Inga
Inga wrote:
Rights as an American under the Constitution. Liberty for me, but not for thee, hmmm?
Sometimes, yeah. As but one example. I can vote if I meet the voting age. I can drink if I'm old enough to drink. I can marry if I'm old enough to marry. I can marry if it's not my sister.
Even if we establish that marriage is a right, you still marry within the confines of what society defines marriage to be.
Which is why I asked you earlier, and you never answered, do you think that society can restrict marriage in any way?
Because if you do, however it's restricted some people wont be able to marry. Which makes your whole "liberty for me but not for thee" shtick to be nothing but pablum.
Care to answer it? Are you an absolute libertarian on marriage?
El Pollo Raylan
I think that many gays appear to be bothered by their exclusion from the rite in most churches. So instead of just accepting it, they just say target religious people and call them bigots.
I do see your point. But I also think that is a small segment of the gay rights [or gay] community. Most don't care about church or religion and aren't bothered by their exclusion. What they were bothered about was the way politicians would use the religious argument to exclude them from marriage. Afterall, marriage isn't necessarily only a religious act. People can marry in Vegas after a night of drinking.
Matt the Rat recently vomited:
"HELLO braniac. You wouldn't even BE on the Supreme Court if it weren't for Yale. And he wouldn't have gotten near Yale if not for affirmative action."
HOW DARE YOU TALK BACK. WE GAVE YOU STUFF. WE OVERLOOKED YOUR CLEAR INFERIORITY. WE MADE YOU. NOW BOW DOWN AND DO AS YER TOLD.
Hello, rat!
And welcome to your future, everyone else. This is what happens when progressives politicize your issue. There's a tax, a penalty, a fee, a fine.
Yay.
Michael K said...
"Man up, losers. You lost. And you deserved to lose."
Wow ! Did I just wander into the Daily Kos site ? Maybe the majority opinion language is contagious or something.
Nope, I think what are you getting to see is the unbridled secret gloating of Althouse. This is how she has always felt and has been coy about it for a long time until now with the SCOTUS decision to gut DOMA and kick Prop. 8 back to the lower courts which effectively overturned the majority vote of Californians to proclaim and define what marriage should be in California.
Calling those that wanted a different and proper outcome losers, I believe is the core of the onion at what Althouse truly is, a leftist. And she's been hiding it under her cruel neutrality skirt for a long long time. The facade is now revealed for what it is. So you can either take it for what it is and respond in kind or feel like a sucker that you've been duped.
It's one thing to say, "man up losers, you lost." but she shows her true visage and contempt when she says, "you deserved to lose." This her giant fuck you to you all that sought to have some level of discourse with this woman. She doesn't give to fucking shits about you at all and never did. She and her ilk got their way to the detriment of this country and she's okay with that. Now her sweet little boy can feel safe at night all tucked into his jammies safe that SCOTUS exonerated his wants and desires because they didn't want us to be mean to him and others like him. While Tiger Helicopter Mom Althouse gets to swish around in her skirt all over Wisconsin secretly giving you all the giant middle finger.
Anthony Kennedy's sweeping rhetoric applied to other non traditional marriages:
The Ban on Polygamy "humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by polygamous trios," he said. "The law in question makes it even more difficult for the children to understand the integrity and closeness of their own family and its concord with other families in their community and in their daily lives."
or
The ban on underage marriage "humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by couples with varying ages " he said. "The law in question makes it even more difficult for the children to understand the integrity and closeness of their own family and its concord with other families in their community and in their daily lives."
or
The ban on harems "humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by harems," he said. "The law in question makes it even more difficult for the children to understand the integrity and closeness of their own family and its concord with other families in their community and in their daily lives."
or
The ban on bigamy "humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by multiple families across multiple marriages," he said. "The law in question makes it even more difficult for the children to understand the integrity and closeness of their own family and its concord with other families in their community and in their daily lives."
or
The ban on incestual marriage "humiliates tens of thousands of children now being raised by family members who are married," he said. "The law in question makes it even more difficult for the children to understand the integrity and closeness of their own family and its concord with other families in their community and in their daily lives."
Since all these groups are banned from marriage, how are they not an aggrieved class? And since they are hurt by the ban, and since their kids have to deal with other more traditional families finding their aliternative lifestyle to be icky or shameworthy despite the marriage, shouldn't their grieveances all be addressed?
Or is the argument that somehow only gays are penalized by a marriage ban,while these other groups aren't.
Which alternative lifestyle shall we continue to harrass and/or stigmatize when all the people in those relationships want to do is marry who they want?
harrogate said...
the issue of gay rights
That's what this is all about. Special rights above and beyond heterosexuals for homosexuals only and if you say so, the majority opinion from Kennedy says you are an enemy of humanity.
jr565
Polygamists and polyamorists get it
I fully expect other groups or individuals to approach the courts for the right to marry. But that alone should never be the reason to not allow gay marriage. I say let these other groups try. The courts won't budge. If they do then they do. [But they won't].
I'm late to this party, but I can understand Althouse's frustration. She's trying to help social conservatives to improve themselves, but all she gets is grief for it.
I sympathize. I myself have tried to help people around here to see the light, sometimes with reason, sometimes with humor and sometimes with ridicule. Different tools for different tasks. And while it's true that some are unreachable and happy to live in invincible ignorance, that's not true for all and the hard work still needs to be done. So don't give up, Ann. The way of the missionary is difficult, but worth it.
Matt wrote:
fully expect other groups or individuals to approach the courts for the right to marry. But that alone should never be the reason to not allow gay marriage. I say let these other groups try. The courts won't budge. If they do then they do. [But they won't].
Give me a reason why they shouldn't have their marriage legalized? Are they not aggrieved in the same way?
Today is a perfect day for conservatives to vent their frustration over the refusal of the government to restrict, regulate and proscribe the legal recognition of love between couples who merely happen to be in a minority.
It is a perfect day for them to say why they think dignity isn't constitutionally favored for all instead of for just a majority of couples.
I'm so glad that they're here to tell us why the constitution should be a rubber stamp for dwindling social efforts to make love safe, legal and only available for the biologically privileged.
Methadras wrote: Nope, I think what are you getting to see is the unbridled secret gloating of Althouse. This is how she has always felt and has been coy about it for a long time until now with the SCOTUS decision to gut DOMA and kick Prop. 8 back to the lower courts which effectively overturned the majority vote of Californians to proclaim and define what marriage should be in California.
Concur. Althouse has never been cruelly neutral about gays and their worst politic tactics. They are a special class in her mind. I forgive her for it though because I think she has personal reasons. But might be a good reason to disqualify her from being say a judge.
jr565
I said the courts won't budge on this. They won't suddenly overturn polygamy, underage marriage, etc. My opinion on the subject doesn't matter either way.
I'm so glad that they're here to tell us why the constitution should be a rubber stamp for dwindling social efforts to make love safe, legal and only available for the biologically privileged.
Biologically privileged? How so? Did you mean evolutionarily so? LGBT's can conceive kids the same way. Unless you're HIV positive or something.
Never mind that even "circa 1990" conservatives were closely identified with Christian values which, as I recall, have never endorsed homosexual behavior let alone ssm.
So tolerance and charity aren't Christian values, let alone exclusively Christian values?
Ok. Glad to see we'll have alternative ways to endorse and expand their franchise, then.
somefeller said...
I'm late to this party, but I can understand Althouse's frustration. She's trying to help social conservatives to improve themselves, but all she gets is grief for it.
I sympathize. I myself have tried to help people around here to see the light, sometimes with reason, sometimes with humor and sometimes with ridicule. Different tools for different tasks. And while it's true that some are unreachable and happy to live in invincible ignorance, that's not true for all and the hard work still needs to be done. So don't give up, Ann. The way of the missionary is difficult, but worth it.
Wow, patronizing condescension much?
Matt wrote:
I fully expect other groups or individuals to approach the courts for the right to marry. But that alone should never be the reason to not allow gay marriage. I say let these other groups try. The courts won't budge. If they do then they do
THe argument against DOMA was that the federal govt made marriages that were already legal illegal.
When Utah wanted to be a state the federal govt told it that if they didn't outlaw polygamy (thus invalidating all polygamous marriages of people who were married) that they couldn't be a state.
The action by govt there was far more egregious than what was done under DOMA. So, there is already precedent that federal govt overrode state govts decision to allow polygamy and quashed it and all of their marriages. Are you ok with that act Matt?
Secondly, polygamists ostensibly love each other. Shouldn't they have a right to "marry" since marriage is essentially a malleable contract and the only real issue is whether they love one another. Prior to now marriage was between a man and a woman. But no, that didn't matter. The issue was people who love each other having the same right to marry who they love. Why then would three people wanting to marry not be afforded that same right? Don't say because marriage is between two people. We just got through the whole redefining marriage to not be a man and a woman. People are in polygamous relationships with kids. And are denied rights that gays are on the road to receiving. Why are you, Matt opposed to people getting their rights and benefits?
I'm asking the second question to you not as a legal question but as a moral question.
I'm just trying to help, Methadras. Just like Ann.
Ok. Glad to see we'll have alternative ways to endorse and expand their franchise, then.
I think the franchise is expanding in other countries quite nicely. That may be what counts more.
Biologically privileged? How so? Did you mean evolutionarily so? LGBT's can conceive kids the same way. Unless you're HIV positive or something.
Correcting you is as frustrating as correcting a child, so consider it an act of charity that I tell that it's as insulting to persuade gays of the superiority legal exclusivity of a heterosexual union of which they'd want no part as it would be to mandate that you should only take part in homosexual unions if you wanted full rights of inheritance, visitation, shared property, etc.
Which you could plainly see if you weren't actively and childishly stuck in your own, nonsensical mind-blindness.
Pretend that people who are different from you actually exist, for a change. I swear it won't kill you, even as crazy as you think it might make you to do so.
Never mind that even "circa 1990" conservatives were closely identified with Christian values which, as I recall, have never endorsed homosexual behavior let alone ssm.
Christians also were opposed to Polygamy. I suppose there too it's wrong to impose christian values on marriage. And there too they would be bigots if they didn't allow polygamous trios to marry in their church.
Rewrote Ritmo's phrase for polygamists:
Correcting you is as frustrating as correcting a child, so consider it an act of charity that I tell that it's as insulting to persuade polygamists of the superiority legal exclusivity of a two person union of which they'd want no part as it would be to mandate that you should only take part in polygamous unions if you wanted full rights of inheritance, visitation, shared property, etc.
To not allow polygamy is INSULTING to polygamists, dammit!
somefeller said...
I'm late to this party, but I can understand Althouse's frustration. She's trying to help social conservatives to improve themselves, but all she gets is grief for it.
No surprise the Baghdad Bob of Althouse can't see sarcasm with a /sarc tag
To wit:
Ann Althouse said...
I hope people read the post before commenting.
The question in the post title is satirical, and I don't think some of you are getting my point.
This isn't your victory, bitch.
It's a victory for charity/generosity, tolerance, equality and kindness - things for which Palladian doesn't have and will never have any sense.
At least, not if it comes at the expense of even one iota of his horrendously overwhelming personal pride.
jr565
I thought I was pretty clear on this; My opinion doesn't matter either way. To be honest, I don't give it much thought. But if I suddenly saw that you had a point that would not change my view of gay marriage. You seem to think that judges are supposed to see the effect of their rulings as being equal to a bunch of dominoes falling. If that were the case we would never get anything done because someone somewhere is always making an argument that A will lead to B will lead to C will lead to the end of the world.
Those are often the kinds of people who stand on street corners carrying signs about the end of the world. Most of us ignore those people because they are crazy. If you keep it up you're headed that way.
Rhythm and Balls said...
Today is a perfect day for conservatives to vent their frustration over the refusal of the government to restrict, regulate and proscribe the legal recognition of love between couples who merely happen to be in a minority.
It is a perfect day for them to say why they think dignity isn't constitutionally favored for all instead of for just a majority of couples.
It's also a perfect day to listen to Ritmo's oral diarrhea since this has everything to do with the fact your average Lefty only has brains enough to believe what he's told and is incapable of independent thought.
To not allow polygamy is INSULTING to polygamists, dammit!
Then go bring their case forward to the Supreme Court for legal challenge, Little Man.
Is it possible for you to ever have a single, reasonable thought - no matter how tiny - with which you actually feel in synch? Everything you say is for show.
It's also a perfect day to listen to Ritmo's oral diarrhea since this has everything to do with the fact your average Lefty only has brains enough to believe what he's told and is incapable of independent thought.
The crystalline clarity of "edutcher's" personal, independent thoughts on the matter seem limited to his modification of the phrase "verbal diarrhea" to "oral diarrhea".
Really original, ed. But it's about your only unique contribution to this thread. Or to this topic.
Or to any topic.
Ritmo wrote:
Then go bring their case forward to the Supreme Court for legal challenge, Little Man.
Is it possible for you to ever have a single, reasonable thought - no matter how tiny - with which you actually feel in synch? Everything you say is for show.
I'm not arguing FOR ME. I'm arguing against the gay marriages proponents arguments. Would Althouse support polygamists going to court for their rights? or an incestual couple. Would you?
How far does your "equality of marriage" argument extend?
It's not about me. It's about You. (and inga and Garage and Althouse)
Ritmo Hedley Lammarr in blazing Saddles:
Hedley Lamarr: My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives...
It disgusts me that so-called "liberals" think that they can exult over advances in gay rights, as if we're just another self-assured part of their desperate attachment to power.
Palladian brings up the rear guard action for the massively majoritarian conservative faction of gay Americans - since so few gays are liberal.
The last paragraph (#5) of Ann's original post is both a fine bit of analysis and a cri de coeur and most people have rightfully focused on it. Many have also rebelled against it, but the thing speaks for itself, as they say.
I'm not arguing FOR ME. I'm arguing against the gay marriages proponents arguments.
Your lack of any personal, intellectual or emotional investment in this is noted. And it was always obvious anyway.
Would Althouse support polygamists going to court for their rights? or an incestual couple. Would you?
How far does your "equality of marriage" argument extend?
To the one brought before the Supreme Court. It was "gay marriage", in case you got distracted by polygamists who weren't present, or presented in the arguments. As actively as they somehow held sway over your own mind nonetheless.
But the rest of us are looking at the actual argument.
It's not about me. It's about You. (and inga and Garage and Althouse)
Yes, I know. Everyone hates you nobody likes you you're going to go and eat worms.
Ritmo's having a bad day today.
His little rimshots just can't seem to address the idea Ann's mocking him, not us.
PS The Baghdad Bob of Althouse (simplified):
"Maybe if I act like she really meant it, nobody will notice I made an ass of myself".
Too late.
How exactly should losers act if not like losers?
Like learners.
Like people who can learn from their ideological mistakes.
Althouse wrote, when she said she opposed polygamy and didn't think it was the same as gay marriage or that the slipperly slope argument wouldn't necessarily lead to polygamy (as per Charles Krauthamer's argument):
"I'm not saying that the distinction is so obvious that everyone will accept it. I'm just refuting Krauthammer, who thinks there is no way to stop the slip down the slope from gay marriage to polygamy. I'm against the scare tactic that is being widely used: don't accept gay marriage or nothing will stave off polygamy. All I'm saying is that there is a principled basis for drawing a line between the two. Nothing compels us to choose that line, however. I freely admit that."
There is always a principled basis for drawing a line. Such a principled basis for drawing a line was established by traditional marriage proponents to not allow for gay marriage also. So what's the difference? When can we not draw that line or not draw that line?
For some the idea that we can draw that line is the issue. And for many gay marriage advocates the argument was you can't draw the line (but only for gay marriage. All other marriages where you similarly can't draw a line are immmaterial to the question).
Rhythm and Balls said...
Palladian brings up the rear guard action...
I saw what you did right there.
Ritmo wrote:
To the one brought before the Supreme Court. It was "gay marriage", in case you got distracted by polygamists who weren't present, or presented in the arguments. As actively as they somehow held sway over your own mind nonetheless.
And if an incestual couple brought the exact same argument before the court how would you, Ritmo, respond? What side would you be on. The side of the state restricting marriage or the side of the loving couple that just wants to marry?
Rhythm and Balls said...
How exactly should losers act if not like losers?
Like learners.
Like people who can learn from their ideological mistakes.
It's not an ideological mistake. The court was simply wrong. The majority opinion doesn't make them right and it neither makes correct. That is your mistake in thinking so.
ed, every time you put finger to keyboard and press "publish" I get the feeling that there's a parakeet in a cage trying to lecture me.
We are not even on the same level. Nothing you say addresses a single point I made.
Why do you feel so compelled to "talk back" to people who obviously have nothing to say to you?
Does it make you feel less impotent than when the state (or whoever) stopped responding to your requests for additional benefits?
You need to learn to let go of things, at some point. Pounding into the ground the things you're really bad at makes you look even more pathetic.
Huckabee's Jesus wept for you, not the ruling.
Ann, I do have to say that if you think for one second that Little Miss Sullivan promoted this idea as a conservative, then you are dumber than I thought you were. There is no fucking way on this planet or any other that Sullivan is, was, or has ever been a conservative. Oh he can call himself whatever he wants, but what he is, isn't that. You thinking that he is as a basis for your argument that conservatives should have aligned with him is facile and stupid. Do better with your thoughts on this because you've never been a conservative nor think like one. You've proved that in your 'loser' doctrine.
And if an incestual couple brought the exact same argument before the court how would you, Ritmo, respond? What side would you be on. The side of the state restricting marriage or the side of the loving couple that just wants to marry?
Boy, you really are just chock full of excuses to avoid engaging the actual issue of gay marriage.
It's a blessing that there are people smarter, more powerful and much more numerous than you in this country who did exactly the opposite yesterday, and for the last ten years.
Doesn't that make you feel awfully irrelevant? It really should.
It shouldn't be a hard question to answer Ritmo.
Was the argument used by gay marriage advocates a universal claim or did it only apply to gays? I don't mean in the case of standing I mean in the case of moral thought.
Lawyers will argue the case along claims of standing and the specific case itself. But I'm talking about non lawyers like yourself talking about gay rights and why we should allow gay marriage.
Gee, Ritmo uses all of the Baghdad Bob of Althouse's lines.
Too bad he can't come up with something intelligent.
And frankly, I have yet to see a point he makes, just the usual Lefty boilerplate and drivel.
Rhythm and Balls said...
How exactly should losers act if not like losers?
Like learners.
Like people who can learn from their ideological mistakes.
It isn't an ideological mistake. this was a decision by SCOTUS and they were wrong in that decision. The ideology here isn't in question. It's their error in the majority decision. Read the dissent. It's utterly glaring how the wrong ideology of the majority got it wrong.
And frankly, I have yet to see a point he makes...
There are two extra words at the end of that sentence fragment that weren't necessary for our understanding of what ed's capable of.
"You took the opportunity to oppress when it was there, and now that it's gone, you want to say you are oppressed. Man up, losers. You lost. And you deserved to lose. Now, stop acting like losers. If you can. (I bet you can't!)"
After that comment from Ann, my high opinion of her is gone. How could I have been so wrong to assume she was any different from the rest of her friends on the Left? Sad.
It isn't an ideological mistake. this was a decision by SCOTUS and they were wrong in that decision. The ideology here isn't in question. It's their error in the majority decision. Read the dissent. It's utterly glaring how the wrong ideology of the majority got it wrong.
Ann explained the ideological opportunists' take on it. Same way as always. Try as hard as one can to excuse away their denial of equality and rights. I'm sure there are as many reasons for this as there are drops in the ocean. None of which were compellingly legitimate, I'm sure. They think that inequality and privilege are just good things and never take their reasoning to any logical or comprehensive conclusion. They are outcome-oriented reactionary activists who just decide what they want when it suits them, and have since at least 2000 if not earlier.
edutcher
Ann writes in the comments section: I've been trying to give conservatives good advice on ssm since 2004. I have zero expectations of ever seeing any improvement.
Are you saying she is being sarcastic? What she said was; The question in the post title is satirical. Meaning the use of the word 'bigotry'.
But that doesn't mean the entire piece she wrote - and all her comments - are satirical.
I'm pretty sure Ann is for SSM. Are you saying she is not?
Ritmo wrote:
"Boy, you really are just chock full of excuses to avoid engaging the actual issue of gay marriage.
It's a blessing that there are people smarter, more powerful and much more numerous than you in this country who did exactly the opposite yesterday, and for the last ten years."
I"m arguing the issue of gay marriage along principled lines. What principles are you using to say that gay marriage should be legalized?
Lawyers in a court case have a much more specific argument at hand, but most people on these boards are not lawyers arguing the case before court.
Some here are arguing it along political lines, moral lines, ethical lines.
And most lawyers I know don't call the opposition bigots, unlike many on these boards. Which suggests that they are arguing the principled argument here and not necessarily the legal one.
As such, I'm asking you simple questions about principle. Defend that principle.
It shouldn't be a hard question for you Ritmo.
Was the argument used by gay marriage advocates a universal claim or did it only apply to gays? I don't mean in the case of standing I mean in the case of moral thought.
It shouldn't be hard for an intelligent and intellectually honest man to see that "couples" are a category that can be considered in their entirety.
Matt wrote: Most don't care about church or religion and aren't bothered by their exclusion.
Maybe so, but your most vocal leaders are. For example Andrew Sullivan and his vicious attack on Mormonism, the retired leader of the Catholic Church and his "christianist" label in general. And then there's the spokesman for adultery, Dan Sullivan. And Ritmo wonders why people can't learn. We know what you guys are smoking.
Ritmo wrote:
Ann explained the ideological opportunists' take on it. Same way as always. Try as hard as one can to excuse away their denial of equality and rights. I'm sure there are as many reasons for this as there are drops in the ocean
Blah blah blah. So proponents of gay marriage are right and the antagonists of gay marriage are wrong. So said by people who are pro gay marriage. Since lawyers will be for the position they legislate for and since we are cancelling out their opinions because they reveal their selective bias, lets now get to the argument along principled lines, where the argument has been all along.
You're mixing the law argument in with the principled argument when you say:
"Try as hard as one can to excuse away their denial of equality and rights. I'm sure there are as many reasons for this as there are drops in the ocean. None of which were compellingly legitimate, I'm sure. They think that inequality and privilege are just good things and never take their reasoning to any logical or comprehensive conclusion.
So what do you think of equality and privilege? Im asking YOU Ritmo in the context of an incestual couple going to court asking for their marriage to be legalized where you stand? I would argue that it would be a denial of equality and rights, since they can't in fact marry and are denied rights. But I would argue that society can in fact deny that marriage. But I'm wondering where you stand on that same question. Is your equality and rights argument simply in context of gay marriage but not equality and rights of individuals seeking to marry? How self serving is that, if so?
And where do you think I should stand on the whole denial of equality and privilege when it comes to marriages other than gay marriages, like the incestual couple I asked you about?
I realize that its a tough question for you because if you really stood for equality in marriage that you would have to sign on for normalizing incest, or taking the position that society can't really regulate marriage at all. Or, you would come down on the states side, but then you'd be lumped in with the people you accuse of denying people marriage equality.
So which is it Ritmo?
You know what is messed up; evolutionary psychology is more in sync with Christian understanding of marriage, then our public policy regarding the family.
Ritmo wrote:
It shouldn't be hard for an intelligent and intellectually honest man to see that "couples" are a category that can be considered in their entirety.
Ok, so then incestual couples. Allow or not allow,
Always a time-honored political principle to be in favor of anything that a wise and successful man has ever either criticized - or simply refused to offer blind, blanket endorsement to, Pollo.
Sometimes I wonder if we could get you to win races at the betting tracks by hanging little pictures of Andrew Sullivan from the front of a wire frame hanging above a pole attached to the top of your helmet.
Sometimes I wonder if we could get you to win races at the betting tracks by hanging little pictures of Andrew Sullivan from the front of a wire frame hanging above a pole attached to the top of your helmet.
To be honest, the blind obedience that you and other sullivanists display here on a regular basis bothers me more. It's almost like having him in the comment section.
"Sometimes I wonder if we could get you to win races at the betting tracks by hanging little pictures of Andrew Sullivan from the front of a wire frame hanging above a pole attached to the top of your helmet."
Dayamn. Bazinga!
jr has the brawn necessary for throwing kitchen sinks, but not the finesse to realize that "gay =/= related by blood".
Perhaps all his family members are having gay relationships with each other. It's hard to see, otherwise, why he cannot separate those two categories in his head.
The question wasn't about ALL NON-TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE, just the gay part. But you're distressed that others aren't finding that sufficiently icky so go ahead and throw out a bunch of distractions that no one considered, you annoying little butt wrinkle.
I've had criticisms of positions Sullivan's held, young squirrel chaser-san.
Ritmo wrote:
r has the brawn necessary for throwing kitchen sinks, but not the finesse to realize that "gay =/= related by blood".
So what? you could have gay polygamy if you want to bring gayness into the equation. The issue is can society tell two people gay or otherwise that they can't marry each other?
Thank you, harrogate. Sometimes the only thing these comments call for is entertainment.
I think I'm almost about done arguing with the closed-head injury crowd here.
You refuse to answer the question is what you're doing.
Let me add a few qualifiers to my example. "They really love each other". They are adults. Should the state have it in law that they can't marry each other? Based on your arguments about equality and all the other bullshit you spewed.
Matt said...
edutcher
Ann writes in the comments section: I've been trying to give conservatives good advice on ssm since 2004. I have zero expectations of ever seeing any improvement.
Are you saying she is being sarcastic? What she said was; The question in the post title is satirical. Meaning the use of the word 'bigotry'.
But that doesn't mean the entire piece she wrote - and all her comments - are satirical.
I'm pretty sure Ann is for SSM. Are you saying she is not?
Ann Althouse said...
I hope people read the post before commenting.
The question in the post title is satirical, and I don't think some of you are getting my point.
EMD's comment exemplifies this problem.
Watching you guys make fools of yourselves is better than Abbott and Costello doing "Who's On First?".
"How exactly should losers act if not like losers?"
"Like learners.
Like people who can learn from their ideological mistakes."
6/27/13, 6:51 PM
Too much to ask I'm afraid, Ritmo.
GAWD Ed, are you EVER right??
A question that was never brought to the court...
Courts consider challenges brought to them. The suit was brought by gays, challenging a law against the legal status of their unions. The ruling affects only GAY COUPLES.
The law, the suit, the ruling was not about Buck Rogers. It was not about Ronald Reagan. It was not about Rock Hudson or about Arabian harems or about Mormon plural marriages. It was about gay couples. It was not about parcheesi. It was not about Chutes and Ladders. It was not about basketball.
Do you need me to list for you all the many other things that the suit and its ruling was not about?
How about gay incest? Brothers?
Does Althouse have more than one homosexual son? Should they be allowed to marry eachother?
No you say? BIGOT!
Rhythm and Balls said...
Ann explained the ideological opportunists' take on it. Same way as always. Try as hard as one can to excuse away their denial of equality and rights. I'm sure there are as many reasons for this as there are drops in the ocean. None of which were compellingly legitimate, I'm sure. They think that inequality and privilege are just good things and never take their reasoning to any logical or comprehensive conclusion. They are outcome-oriented reactionary activists who just decide what they want when it suits them, and have since at least 2000 if not earlier.
Really, reactionary activists? Do you know how long and how much money it takes to organize an initiative process in California, then go through the process of signature validation to get it on a ballot? Then set up the structure for its promotion in that it's vetted for constitutional legitimacy before it ever gets that far?
As the three branches of government dictate all have 'access' to the legislative branch in that regardless if you are in the minority or in the majority, to be able to petition your grievances to your representative for redress in the hopes that they can enact law based on that grievance to right a perceived wrong that is constitutionally sound. 52% of California voters thought enough of that initiative to vote on it and have it passed only to have it sued and overturned in court, to go to SCOTUS so they could kick it back to the lower court that overturned it to begin with and vacate its outcome and you have the nerve to call those that oppose this kind of judicial activism, reactionaries? Your ideological lens is out of focus, scratched, and misaligned.
Ann explained her theory on the ideological opportunists, but she reveals her distasteful bias in point 5 of her screed. There has never been a suppression of rights for homosexuals. Never. If you want to call hospital visitations or tax implications rights, then you would be wrong like every proponent that has used these thread bare thin excuses for why homosexuals should have the 'right' to marry. I ask you as I've asked other leftists on this blog. Have you ever been a conservative. Have you ever considered the positions of what it means to be one by actually being one? I was once a leftist. I have that benefit of double sight. I chose which ideology I believe is the correct one. I fight for those ideals because I know what the other sides ideals are and take it under those considerations.
You, I assume do not and cannot, hence your statement above. A shortsighted assessment of what you think is going on when you have barely an idea of what is really going on. Enjoy the drift.
How about gay incest? Brothers?
Well, the suit and the law wasn't about them either, President - but it's good to know that if such a party were ever to arise they'd be able to count on you keeping them in mind all this time.
Inga said...
GAWD Ed, are you EVER right??
You never are and never have been. You were born a crooked liar, you coattail riding harpy. Your lamprey like abilities to attach your suckface onto anything resembling ideological protection is like watching a tick attach itself to its host. Seeing you blather here as if you actually knew what you were talking about is comedy enough, but you thinking that you are right on anything just insults stupid people.
Ritmo said...The ruling affects only GAY COUPLES.
Some might say it affects a broader genus, namely, same sex marriage. Did it explicitly include gay-only language? And is love codified into the the new law?
Implicitly, perhaps, given "normal" mores.
Rhythm and Balls said...
How about gay incest? Brothers?
Well, the suit and the law wasn't about them either, President - but it's good to know that if such a party were ever to arise they'd be able to count on you keeping them in mind all this time.
You want to know why you get so much crap. It's responses like this. Either you are masochistic or you actually are nothing more than an errant troll that neither believes in any of what he says or just advocates a contrarian point of view for the sheer sake of doing so. You didn't have to answer that way, you could have been blunt and succinct, but instead you chose obfuscation and a lacking desire to even say yes or no? You can't even bring yourself to go directly to the point and just end up circumnavigating your navel to a response. Enjoy the fuss.
A shortsighted assessment of what you think is going on when you have barely an idea of what is really going on. Enjoy the drift.
Oh I sure will. I look forward to every prediction of gloom and doom and catastrophic fault lines by a faction incapable of allowing science into their thought process. Or of overthrowing a Mid-East dictator without wasting a few trillion, hundreds of thousands of lives, the support of other countries or even the country involved...
Yep, I sure like drifting away from those practices.
Justice denied is justice delayed, Bitchmo.
I'm saddened that a good little progressive like you is so unfeeling to the equal rights of consenting adults who love eachother and are persecuted by those mean old Christians with their bigotry towards same bloodline marriage.
Why here in this very thread, you are mocking someone whose ancestry obviously contains a lot of reproduction through incest. How insensitive of you to take such positions when it is clear from Inga's avatar how much inbreeding there was in her family. Shame on you.
History will not judge you kindly, you intolerant mouth-breather. As Ann says, ugly.
Forward!
You want to know why you get so much crap. It's responses like this.
You mean, responses that actually remind the commenter of what the topic actually is?
Lol.
Rhythm and Balls said...
A question that was never brought to the court...
Courts consider challenges brought to them. The suit was brought by gays, challenging a law against the legal status of their unions. The ruling affects only GAY COUPLES.
The law, the suit, the ruling was not about Buck Rogers. It was not about Ronald Reagan. It was not about Rock Hudson or about Arabian harems or about Mormon plural marriages. It was about gay couples. It was not about parcheesi. It was not about Chutes and Ladders. It was not about basketball.
Do you need me to list for you all the many other things that the suit and its ruling was not about?
If you honestly believe that this decision is, was, and should solely be made in a vacuum that effects only those that brought it forth, then you have an even less understanding of that of a layman on what the court is and does.
So the question is now up to bat: Should the government be able to deny recognized marriage to any adults? Lets just keep it simple at 2 adults for now.
Rhythm and Balls said...
You want to know why you get so much crap. It's responses like this.
You mean, responses that actually remind the commenter of what the topic actually is?
Lol.
It was a legitimate question.
I'm saddened that a good little progressive like you is so unfeeling to the equal rights of...
No you're not. But it's good to know that your humor is as broken as your social consciousness. ;-)
But at least you know how humor works. Just learn how to apply it right next time. This time it was more like watching you apply Windex to upholstery, unfortunately.
Rhythm and Balls said...
A shortsighted assessment of what you think is going on when you have barely an idea of what is really going on. Enjoy the drift.
Oh I sure will. I look forward to every prediction of gloom and doom and catastrophic fault lines by a faction incapable of allowing science into their thought process. Or of overthrowing a Mid-East dictator without wasting a few trillion, hundreds of thousands of lives, the support of other countries or even the country involved...
Yep, I sure like drifting away from those practices.
Ah, there it is again. Smears of unscientific and unreasoned thought because of your ideology while injecting war and the money spent on it as a function of trying to discredit an entire ideology. The fact that you think this is only symptomatic of your narrow minded world view.
The mainstream churches have been infested with homosexual clerics for years. PC-USA, United Methodist, and United Church Of Christ are full of them. Just look at the votes at their annual conferences. They either vote in, or almost vote in homosexuality every time. I have met some of them. They are obvious in their orientation.
It was a legitimate question.
The court did not consider it. Did the dissent? If it did, I think that denotes desperation and a good reason for an unconvincing minority ruling.
In any event, I think you can explain to me why that question ties into the one decided by the court in the first place. Who are you to demand that they cannot be separated, considered separately and decided separately? Courts separate things like this all the time. Did DOMA have anything to do with incestuous couples or polyamorists? Did it? Did you know that when litigants contest the constitutionality of legislation, they are actually contesting the legislation itself, and not hypothetical legislation that had nothing to do with the status of the litigants as mandated by THAT legislation?
No, I don't think you did. But the court does.
edutcher
Wait, so in your opinion Ann is opposed to gay marriage and hasn't told conservatives to get behind the idea of ssm?
She is therefore being sarcastic when she says: I've been trying to give conservatives good advice on ssm since 2004. I have zero expectations of ever seeing any improvement.??
I believe you are incorrect. Note that she said this comment after the one you cite. I mean, I have read most of the comments here and plenty of them by conservatives who believe Ann is firing an arrow at them and their beliefs. Note, again, the sarcasm she speaks of is related to the headline regarding bigotry. Not the advice about ssm.
Well, either google is gobbling up comments or Meade or Alhouse are. Idiocy.
People here seem to not get that a very underlooked consequence of this ruling will be deciding whether gay married couples are allowed to jaywalk. Or surpass the speed limit when driving.
These are very important, burning societal questions that the majority, in its narrow-minded zeal to advance certain ideologically selfish social goals, simply refused to answer. And the consequences are sure to be disastrous.
Matt, Ann has also said numerous times that Edutcher is almost always WRONG, lol.
Ritmo wrote:
A question that was never brought to the court...
Courts consider challenges brought to them. The suit was brought by gays, challenging a law against the legal status of their unions. The ruling affects only GAY COUPLES.
The law, the suit, the ruling was not about Buck Rogers. It was not about Ronald Reagan. It was not about Rock Hudson or about Arabian harems or about Mormon plural marriages. It was about gay couples. It was not about parcheesi. It was not about Chutes and Ladders. It was not about basketball.
another dodge. If you want to limit your discussion only to,the court case, then limit it to the judges who presided over the case.
The discussion was about gay marriage, but also about marriage itself. Why can't you answer those questions without dodging them. Even Althouse made the argument that the slipper slope argument wasnt laid when it came to gay marriage, meaning there are discussions to be had about the subject tangential to the question of gay marriage. How we should redefine marriage and who should do it are very fundamental questions. I do see that the majority proponents of gay marriage refuse to answer the questions.
When really it is a very simple question. And if you are going to villify your opponents and call them names, the very least you can do is articulate your position. Otherwise you are simply an ass.
Will gay married couples be allowed to molest children?
That's what I want to know.
How many laws will gay married couples be allowed to break now? I mean, you change one piece of legislation, you have to throw out all. That's just the way it goes.
The court, in its narrow-minded liberal way, just opened the door for gay, married gangs to rob banks, and declare martial law over the auspices of the government.
The left just doesn't get all the damage this has caused. There are so many imponderables that they snidely just refuse to ponder.
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