Althouse: "Stop telling WOMEN to smile."

June 16, 2013

"Stop telling WOMEN to smile."

"WOMEN do not owe you their time or conversation."

122 comments:

rhhardin said...: "And they might get disrespectful and call you by a body part."

Synechdoche rules.; 6/16/13, 6:27 AM
tim maguire said...: It's hard to go unnoticed in New York City,

Stopped reading. Load of crap. NYC is one of the best places in tbe world to go unnoticd.

My response to your quote: obviously this only applies to non-hot guys. If you're not hot, and especially if you're poor, keep walking. But if you're hot, and especially if you're rich, i'll be happy to smile for you.

Oh yeah, and stop objectifyig women. It's demeaning.; 6/16/13, 6:35 AM
SJL said...: I miss the days when construction men would whistle at me.; 6/16/13, 6:49 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: It wasn't too long ago that it was in the news that some big retail chain had to revise its policy that the cashiers had to smile at the customers because the company was threatened with a class action hostile work environment lawsuit.

Seems male customers would hit on the female cashiers because they thought the smile was a come-on.

I was pleased to hear of it. Shy, low status guys like me want nothing more than the smile, itself, ideally a smile that comes in response to an oblique remark that acknowledges the cashier's intelligence that extends well beyond that required to do the job.

You want that smile to be real or it doesn't count.; 6/16/13, 7:07 AM
rhhardin said...: "And they might get disrespectful and call you by a body part."

It might be asshole.; 6/16/13, 7:11 AM
Jim in St Louis said...: What was that thing a few days ago about Bitchy Resting Face?

Althouse: Please cross post for comparison. thanks; 6/16/13, 7:15 AM
Eric the Fruit Bat said...: A handful of times I got dragged to one of those strip clubs where you hand the girl some money and she gyrates on your crotch or something like that.

I found the whole setup absolutely repugnant.

I think the standard way to be repulsed by that is to see the women as manipulative whores.

I figured they were simply doing their job.

No. What I found revolting was the way the guys seemed so earnest in thier excitment like the experience was the most awesome thing that's ever happened to them in the whole wide world.

You may think of me as an unhappy combination of an incurable romantic and a prig.; 6/16/13, 7:15 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I can kill someone with this smile.

An alliance of communities and police... must make debate and controversy, not property defacement, the common style for city life.

or...

Google to bring WiFi via cat calls.; 6/16/13, 7:16 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: I take it - WOMEN - all in caps does not mean, in this case, special or unique.

And yet...

Isn't it a mix massage?

Or Am I just thick?; 6/16/13, 7:31 AM
Lem Vibe Bandit said...: It could be that in order to call attention to what the poster is about it is necessary to identify with the target audience.

Its elaborate.; 6/16/13, 7:36 AM
Nomennovum said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/16/13, 7:44 AM
pm317 said...: One guy on my P&T committee (at a tier3 school) told me that I should smile more and said, look at those (women who smiled more) -- I wonder if he would have said that to a male colleague. Then I went to a tier 1 school, actually one of top 13 and noticed nobody smiled at anybody as if, it would diminish their stature if they did.; 6/16/13, 7:46 AM
Nomennovum said...: Stop telling women to smile. Women do not owe you their time or conversation.

Number one, sweetie, men do not care about what comes out of your mouth. We care about what comes in it.

Number two, how about this bargain? You don't owe us your time and yammering, and we don't owe you our labor and the fruits thereof. K?

6/16/13, 7:44 AM; 6/16/13, 7:46 AM
Nomennovum said...: Stop telling women to smile

Yes, we find the Bitch Face so much more appealing.; 6/16/13, 7:55 AM
robinintn said...: There's something pretty wrong with a woman who thinks vandalism is an appropriate response to those icky, and, let's just say what she's dancing around, lower class, guys noticing her royal person.; 6/16/13, 8:04 AM
Nomennovum said...: There's something pretty wrong with a woman who thinks vandalism is an appropriate response to those icky, and, let's just say what she's dancing around, lower class, guys noticing her royal person.

Yes. The Entitlement is strong in this one.

She doesn't realize that she is acting based on her hormones and genes, not her reason or intellect.; 6/16/13, 8:09 AM
missred said...: What a miserable creature. It costs nothing to smile - at anyone.; 6/16/13, 8:27 AM
Astro said...: Yeah, it's the 'Shut UP!' argument. Denying people their right of free speech.

If only... if only... someone could invent something she could put in her ears, or cover her ears with, so she wouldn't have to listen to the noise around her if she didn't want to. A sort of plug-like device for her ears, or maybe a muffling device.

Hey wouldn't it be great if you could have a device that covers your ears, yet lets you listen to music? Wouldn't that be a great invention? I should go patent that.; 6/16/13, 8:31 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: Perhaps if feminists hadn't beaten the chivalry out of men by yelling at them when they open doors, pay the check, stand when you approach the table, pull out the chair for the woman and many other niceties of manners that parents taught their young boys.......there would be more respect and less rude leering in public.

You can't have it both ways ladies. Destroy the underpinnings of society and crap all over men for having manners and then expect to be treated like a "lady".; 6/16/13, 8:31 AM
rhhardin said...: If you call a woman an asshole, you are respecting her for her mind.

Yet with cunt it's the opposite.; 6/16/13, 8:32 AM
Chip Ahoy said...: I AM smiling, you big silly. You see, *reaches for something distant* I have suffered facial paralysis (a word I spelled right off) but have recovered through strenuous and faithful facial exercises even through the early periods when I could not control any face muscle on one side, nor even locate the muscle to constrict. There was simply no connection. And now you reminded me of those lonely distant days of isolation and distress. What's this at the bottom of this glass, mint or what?

no srsly, some people have downy faces. Gravity. It's like you pushed the dough around and it sags at the mouth and hangs down like a hound. If it were clay you'd just push it down. And the way to overcome that is not by surgery but by facial exercises. Obviously use le portage. But you know what, honestly, I have no idea what to do with your wrinkly neck and décolleté, surgery I suppose for that, or go around wearing an Egyptian style breastplate all the time.; 6/16/13, 8:34 AM
dbp said...: Telling someone to smile is pretty horrific, I am sure we all can agree on that. In addition, we all like to be lectured about what is permissible and what people "owe" each other out in public.

So thank you very much for enlightening us, Ms feminist authority on everything.; 6/16/13, 8:41 AM
KCFleming said...: The problem with women being married to the State is that the State doesn't care if the unmarried men that result hit on you constantly.; 6/16/13, 8:57 AM
madAsHell said...: I looked at the pictures she drew. The women all had a chip-on-their-shoulders.....or maybe it was an animated GIF file.

Regardless, they both looked nuts!!; 6/16/13, 8:59 AM
Gahrie said...: So, this woman thinks she has the right to vandalize someone else's property to make herself feel better?

Why doesn't she just confront the men acting like assholes when they act like assholes?

Responding to assholes by being an asshole to someone else doesn't seem all that effective to me.; 6/16/13, 9:01 AM
Dante said...: She could wear a Burqa.; 6/16/13, 9:16 AM
virgil xenophon said...: @Gahrie/

"...by being an infantile asshole..."

FIFY; 6/16/13, 9:17 AM
Jay Vogt said...: . . . tim maguire said...
""It's hard to go unnoticed in New York City, "

Stopped reading. Load of crap. NYC is one of the best places in tbe world to go unnoticd.""

My thought and reaction exactly. I'll take it a step further though; it's hard to get noticed in NYC; 6/16/13, 9:19 AM
edutcher said...: What DBQ said.

The condition is known medically as having a crab up her ass.; 6/16/13, 9:25 AM
Dante said...: It is rather ironic. I'm going to DEMAND, with words, that you stop communicating with me.

And, unlike you, I'm going to knowingly break the law to do it.

And I'm going to claim I speak for all women.

Perhaps she doesn't want men and women to talk with each other at all, or maybe she thinks only women should initiate conversations.

I think, though, it is OK because she is an artist, plus she's black and has one of those black sounding names to boot.; 6/16/13, 9:32 AM
dbp said...: I was once asked to smile by a young woman. (I was also very young at the time) I was irritated by this and so lashed-out by saying, "Smiling for no reason is a hallmark of the mentally retarded".

She looked at me like I had just shot a puppy in the head and I felt bad. She did mean well and I apologized.; 6/16/13, 9:33 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: What a bunch of sourpusses. Pleasant relations are a two-way street. Do they think men built effective systems of commerce, government and intellectual/moral advancement by being all cold to each other? We didn't, and they don't have a right to be a part of it if that's how they feel.

I avoid dating prude, power-fixated American women as often as I can. Nothing is more of a turn-off than a woman who's afraid of the world and the people around her with whom she could interact on a daily basis. Doesn't stop them from checking me out, but I usually respond with a creepy stare and a couple rude glares back. How little can you say for creatures for whom the slightest of initiatives is too much - despite obviously wanting to take in eye candy?

That said, things still vary by region. Women in California are the most friendly and outwardly flirtatious, I've found, as they also are in Chicago. They're nice and friendly in the South, but usually so damn shallow that I don't bother to engage them in their long, drawn-out plantation speak. But yeah, I do like how the further west you go, the more likely the glances are to grow into suggestions, invitations, and well, the things that actually make us feel human, rather than museum-goers.; 6/16/13, 9:40 AM
bleh said...: In a few short years, she'll be killing herself at the gym and spending outrageous amounts at the spa, just so that men might notice her again.; 6/16/13, 9:42 AM
Nomennovum said...: I avoid dating prude, power-fixated American women as often as I can.

Women in California are the most friendly and outwardly flirtatious.

They're nice and friendly in the South, but usually so damn shallow ....

Well, how do you like that? Yup, yup, and yup.; 6/16/13, 9:55 AM
edutcher said...: Rhythm and Balls said...

I avoid dating prude, power-fixated American women as often as I can.

So Ritmo only dates (yeah, sure) Conservative women.

Well, we knew he was a hypocrite.; 6/16/13, 10:02 AM
bagoh20 said...: I bet that if she actually thought about it, and had to choose what response she would get from men the rest of her life that the one she's bitching about is the one she would choose. This is the classic female power move: withholding joy, withholding intimacy, and for those who can't turn that crap off, ending up unhappy because they choose someone who will put up with constant misery.; 6/16/13, 10:09 AM
bagoh20 said...: I have never whistled at or did any of that crap to a woman in my whole life, but I can't really recommend my method either. I bet the rude assholes get more chicks than us respectful chumps.; 6/16/13, 10:13 AM
Baronger said...: After I started taking antidepressants, I discovered the power of the smile. It is why I tell both men and women to smile, but make sure it is genuine. Smile with your eyes not your mouth.

When I first started to smile after about 20 years of low grade depression, it seemed that other people were taking the medication and not me. Smiling is what the difference was.

I've gotten out of several speeding tickets because of it. I'm male as were the officers, and I assume both parties were hetero. However, a smile and a friendly attitude can shift things into your favour.

Smiling is power, if you know how to use it. Too put it simply it is a form of mind control. I don't tell girls and men to smile so they will look pretty. I tell them to smile because it greases the wheels of social interaction.

So are all the women who are taking the advice to not smile, giving up power out of spite. I thought women wanted to be powerful?; 6/16/13, 10:15 AM
Ann Althouse said...: I can't imagine telling a stranger to smile.

I think it's hard for people to talk in NYC, where there's no custom of saying "hi" when you walk by someone. You're supposed to keep an expression on your face as if the other person isn't there at all. I lived in NYC for 10+ years, beginning when I was 22, and I basically never had the problem complained of in the article. You have to have the right facial expression. Don't let people think you want to talk to them and they won't talk to you.

I did once have a man start talking to me and my then-husband about how we weren't smiling — on the subway! — but he just wanted to tell us about Jesus, who would make us smile. Even on the subway?; 6/16/13, 10:22 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: So Ritmo only dates (yeah, sure) Conservative women.

As far as I can tell, I've only dated a few. Many of the ones I've liked tended to be more (personally) traditional, but not the anti-social political Neanderthals that (American) conservatives try to be. However, I'm pretty sure that the ones from conservative backgrounds were no less fun, but for even shorter periods of time. Basically, they try to overcome what seem to be insanely huge doses of repression by being kinky as hell (yup, I'll let you connies know what "your" women are up to, heh), but can't make anything last. They end up wigging out and getting even flakier than the politically disinterested and moderates. And I would never associate with an extreme lefty let alone have sex with one. Unless she's a natural hippie type actually walking the walk and living unafraid of the outdoors out on the coasts. Those ones work for me, too.

Political correctness is the left's fascism. What is evident is that connies outsource their love and affection to corporations and lefties to NPR. It perpetuates the puritanism from both angles, and I fight it from both.

Fuck all y'all! Ha!; 6/16/13, 10:22 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, the crazed machete-wielder is trying to say.

Maybe he's telling me to smile. Lol.; 6/16/13, 10:24 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: After I started taking antidepressants, I discovered the power of the smile. It is why I tell both men and women to smile, but make sure it is genuine. Smile with your eyes not your mouth.

Smiling for its own sake has actually been proven to make people happier.

Myself I'm incapable of doing a phony, mouth-only smile. I mean, I can, but it's unforced for me as a cracking knuckles.; 6/16/13, 10:27 AM
edutcher said...: Rhythm and Balls said...

So Ritmo only dates (yeah, sure) Conservative women.

As far as I can tell, I've only dated a few. Many of the ones I've liked tended to be more (personally) traditional, but not the anti-social political Neanderthals that (American) conservatives try to be.

First of all, funny how Ritmo sounds exactly like the Baghdad Bob of Althouse.

Exactly.

Second, he said he dates (again, yeah, sure) ones who aren't "prude, power-fixated American women".

Sure lets out Lefties.; 6/16/13, 10:32 AM
Astro said...: I can't imagine telling a stranger to smile.

Not that I've done this very often, but sometimes when I see someone like a cashier in a grocery store with a noticeable frown on her face (usually a she) I'll ask "Are we having fun yet?" They've always sensed I'm commiserating, and this has either triggered a smile or started a nice conversation.; 6/16/13, 10:34 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I can't imagine telling a stranger to smile.

Apparently you are unaccustomed to seeing how downright ugly, forced, and repressed some of the frowns are. It's like watching four-year olds throwing tantrums - against SOCIETY! Waaah.

Seriously, young, unmarried women are very self-unconscious about the shallow scheiss they blather into their cell phones and how much of their adolescent attitudes they take out while not busy prancing around in miniskirts, halter tops or high heels. They like to display "power" through apathy, agitation, or appearance and take a pretty active role in viewing anyone with too much testosterone (i.e. more than she has) as a sexual aggressor until proven otherwise. That's life in the big city for you!; 6/16/13, 10:35 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: ed - you're about as dumb on this as you are about everything else.

I'm being honest here. Go and tell us about your own experiences. About how long can you keep a girl in your parents' basement before she makes an excuse to leave or your mummy trounces down in a robe and with rollers in her hair and telling you no guests past 10 PM.

It's her house, ed. She and Dad will make the rules.

Go wish him a happy Fathers' Day. He did help make the success that you are, after all.

Stop taking out your self-loathing on me. Although, I can see why the thread topic might make you more insecure about what might be, well, a more natural fixation.

Begone, dude. For your own sake.; 6/16/13, 10:38 AM
bagoh20 said...: There is nothing more important in life than trying to spread happiness. If you are against that, then just go find an island somewhere, or go clean a loaded gun.

The 11th commandment was "Harsh no mellow", but Moses was afraid the people wouldn't respect his authoritay if he told them that.; 6/16/13, 10:43 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Hear, hear to Bag O' on that one (@10:43)... (and we haven't even been agreeing all that much lately).; 6/16/13, 10:50 AM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: There is a difference between having a strange man strike up a conversation with you (a female) while you are waiting for the bus or getting coffee at the local barista or a bunch of guys standing on the corner or working in a public area shouting out sexual remarks and cat calls at women randomly walking by.

Granted...I'm beyond that stage of receiving cat calls (/sigh). However, it is interesting that the guys here don't seem to understand the difference.

One...the conversation is flattering and could actually lead to an interesting relationship. The other....the yelling and cat calling is threatening especially to a woman walking alone and somewhat overwhelming in a sort of incipient gang bang type of feeling.

I still stand on my contention that feminism and the erosion of manners, the glue that holds society together, has made the issue more prevalent. First of all sour puss women like the author, should ignore the whole thing or like I used to do, just wave back, smile and move on. Don't make such a big deal over everything. Second. Men no longer have respect for women. Gee....I wonder why? (That was sarcasm just in case you didn't get it).; 6/16/13, 10:56 AM
edutcher said...: Rhythm and Balls said...

ed - you're about as dumb on this as you are about everything else.

Yeah, all the fun girls are Lefties, like Big Sis.

I'm being honest here. Go and tell us about your own experiences. About how long can you keep a girl in your parents' basement before she makes an excuse to leave or your mummy trounces down in a robe and with rollers in her hair and telling you no guests past 10 PM.

The sockpuppetry gets worse.

The Baghdad Bob of Althouse still can't get over the fact he's in Mom's basement and I'm with The Blonde.

Eat your heart out, sweetie.; 6/16/13, 10:56 AM
Sorun said...: "I lived in NYC for 10+ years, beginning when I was 22, and I basically never had the problem complained of in the article."

You probably weren't in the right (wrong) neighborhoods for it.; 6/16/13, 11:05 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: However, it is interesting that the guys here don't seem to understand the difference.

Oh yeah, we get it... context, context, context yada yada. Some places are "conducive" to sexual "receptivity" and whatnot and others are no-go zones. Women map all these out in their heads with the complexity of treasure maps and outer borough subway lines. We know that. And yes, construction zones aren't cozy and cuddly places - but danger could happen there and that's sexy! (Potentially. Or so I guess).

Anyway, the point is that one gender (ahem) needs to divvy up the appropriateness of life's events into little boxes and another, especially when it comes to innocent ways of perpetuating basic interaction and neighborly comfort, and another, apparently does not. We all know that life in a big city can become depersonalizing - and the less socially active one unfortunately perpetuates it while the the less passive one seeks to break down those barriers! What's a better way of distracting from imposing, artificial light canyons, concrete and metal than reminding us that we're all human?

Well, apparently as with barter, trade and arbitrage, women haven't figured out the answer to that one, either. Lol.; 6/16/13, 11:08 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Ed - this is a thread about women, catcalls and sexual detachment. Why are you stalking me? What's your fixation with a guy here (whom you call "sweetie") about? Go watch The Talented Mr. Ripley and resume your fantasies in the morning.

Seriously, it's like I'm watching one of those experiments where the rats were given the wrong pheromone.; 6/16/13, 11:11 AM
Alex said...: I hate the whole thing where the cashier tries to ask how your day was and what plans you have for the weekend because OH the weather is SO nice. Just ring up my items, you fucking peasant.; 6/16/13, 11:20 AM
edutcher said...: Rhythm and Balls said...
Ed - this is a thread about women, catcalls and sexual detachment. Why are you stalking me?

I'm merely rebutting your inane statements.

I know Lefties like you throw as much at the wall hoping something will stick, so I just make sure the wall is scrubbed clean.

If you think you're being stalked

A you flatter yourself

B you need professional help; 6/16/13, 11:23 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/16/13, 11:41 AM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: C. You need to get out of your parents' basement, stop playing "spin the bottle" with your sister, and get a job!!!

This thread has nothing to do with politics, you numbnuts. Go wack off to pictures of Ronald Reagan or dress your dominatrix up as Maggie Thatcher on another site.; 6/16/13, 11:42 AM
acm said...: The "Smile, sweetheart" thing is horrible. Not okay to vandalize someone's property over, but horrible. I'm actually allowed to be sad in public, people! Yes, it's lovely to spread cheer and a smile brightens everyone's day, and ya da ya da ya. But, I actually had some asshole tell me "Smile, sweetheart!" the day my brother died. Fuck that. Being a young, pretty girl as I was at the time didn't give me some obligation to spread cheer, or even feel cheer.

Bagoh, if the rude assholes were happy with the girls they got by their method, would they feel the need to be assholes? I've known a few girls who did respond to that sort of asshole behavior. You probably don't want those.; 6/16/13, 11:43 AM
bagoh20 said...: Catcalling is generally a stupid and often cruel thing for people to do, and guys who do it are, at least for that day, assholes, but the author's approach just reinforces the disrespect she gets. As soon as you acknowledge the catcallers with a smile, most are instantly shamed a little, as it's the smile that makes you human, and forces them to see you as something more than just an object.

Imagine the reverse where women would catcall a man? If they did, and he appeared angry and insulted, what would you think of him? And if he smiled? Which one would you respect more?

Afterward, is the world just a tiny bit better or worse from that smile? And isn't it a little worse from the sourpuss. Neither the catcallers nor the victim is improved by expressing your anger. This is true for other stuff like road rage too. Just chill, smile, and try to make it better instead of reacting to your inner victim. You'll come out of the experience much better, and do a little to disarm the circular firing squad that we seem inclined to at every turn.; 6/16/13, 11:58 AM
Anonymous said...: Perhaps if feminists hadn't beaten the chivalry out of men by yelling at them when they open doors, pay the check, stand when you approach the table, pull out the chair for the woman and many other niceties of manners that parents taught their young boys.......there would be more respect and less rude leering in public.

I dunno, DBQ. Men seem to still do all those chivalrous things for me, and by all accounts I'm perceived by others as having fine old-fashioned manners. But I have never, ever, considered it as anything but rude, intrusive, and nails-on-blackboard grating to have some stranger walk up to me and demand that I "smile!". Male friends confirm that they have had it done to them by women, and they found it just as annoying. It's just bad manners. Stop doing it.

Like the professor, I cannot imagine walking up to anyone and telling them to smile. Why on earth would I do that? I wasn't raised in a barn. It's rude. I like smiles and pleasantries, too, but why is some stranger's emotional state any of my business?

Gentlemen (and you ladies also guilty of this obnoxious behavior): getting a bad reaction from some act of yours is not necessarily the result of feminism, or how horrible modern women are, or whatever other current social phenomenon on which you wish to blame other people's negative judgments of you. Maybe, this time, it's you. You wanna complain about bitchy women yelling at you if you open a door for them? Fine. I'll sympathize. Got a bad reaction from telling someone to "smile!"? Of course you did, dummy. You're being an asshole. Gentlemen do not wander streets and corridors demanding smiles from passerby. It's bad manners. Stop doing it.; 6/16/13, 11:59 AM
Nomennovum said...: Second, he said he dates (again, yeah, sure) ones who aren't "prude, power-fixated American women". Sure lets out Lefties.

Even leftists can understand sexual relations. I spans ideology. It's just that leftists tend to ignore reality, even insofar as women are concerned. Ritmo doesn't.; 6/16/13, 12:01 PM
Paco Wové said...: So Ritmo and Nomennoven agree that women suck? Wow. Peace in our time!; 6/16/13, 12:07 PM
bagoh20 said...: Unless I was deeply sad about some personal tragedy, or righteously angered about something important, I would appreciate someone telling me to smile. Not in a rude way of course - that never works regardless of the message, but in a friendly or cheerful manner. Maybe I'm different; I'm always looking for an excuse to be happy, and always appreciate the help. I guess that's not normal. I'm a freak.; 6/16/13, 12:08 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Catcalling is generally a stupid and often cruel thing for people to do, and guys who do it are, at least for that day, assholes, but the author's approach just reinforces the disrespect she gets. As soon as you acknowledge the catcallers with a smile, most are instantly shamed a little, as it's the smile that makes you human, and forces them to see you as something more than just an object.

Imagine the reverse where women would catcall a man? If they did, and he appeared angry and insulted, what would you think of him? And if he smiled? Which one would you respect more?

This is all more-or-less true, of course.

I think the other elephant in the room, though, is the blatant classism that fuels female sexual narcissism. I think that what they object to most is that it's construction workers doing it rather than guys in double-breasted pinstripe suits, driving Maseratis.

For a woman the offense taken has to do almost entirely with how the guy isn't "good enough for her", and to a lesser degree, issues of time and place. This is a huge double-standard as a guy would generally be flattered by any woman lacking the cowardice to show interest, regardless of what attraction there is or isn't or where it he allows it to go. In any event, no one would let him off the hook if he feigned "offense" by the girl being too fat for him (which, after all, is a primitive biological sign that she might take liberties stretching his resources - nice as many fat girls are or at least try to be).; 6/16/13, 12:10 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Not in a rude way of course - that never works regardless of the message, but in a friendly or cheerful manner. Maybe I'm different; I'm always looking for an excuse to be happy, and always appreciate the help. I guess that's not normal. I'm a freak.

Lol. Yeah, me too.

Asking others to smile only stands a chance if you are actually happy yourself and convey that. And even then...

I think I got this from my own mom, who is generally cheerful and can't stand the pursuit of misery. She also introduced me to the expression, "Don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining outside!" Which is one of the most useful mantras I've carried with me in my adult life.

Tragedies and other vicissitudes aside, the problem here is that women are generally moodier, more expressive about it ("Hello! I'm waiting for you to commiserate and make life better for me!"), and feel a need to proclaim all men in her immediate vicinity to be worthless,... (except for "The ONE", galloping on in from afar, on a white horse, wearing blazingly shining armor, and exuding impeccable breeding, manners and influence over all others! Gush!)

Which, after all, is hard to stay focused on when you're just trying to walk down the street looking prettily distracted by the annoyance of it all. So you pull out the cell phone and complain to your girlfriend about all the extraordinarily unbelievable events that involved who-said-what and who-saw-whom and who-did-this. Unbelievable!; 6/16/13, 12:19 PM
Aridog said...: Smiling has nothing to do with whether you want to talk to someone or otherwise interact. It is simply an expression of you own feelings. If someone suggests it to you, so be it. I smile every morning when I wake up...because for a period or two in my life there was no certainty in that. I have also tended to smile and not appear threatening when in foreign countries where the life was harshly very different. It kept me alive in many instances.

So if I am not smiling, go ahead, remind me. I might need it.; 6/16/13, 12:19 PM
acm said...: Unless I was deeply sad...

----

How exactly do you know which strangers are deeply sad? Oh, yes, you can usually look at someone's nonverbal communication, like the expression on his or her face! A frown very often means the person is sad.; 6/16/13, 12:21 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: How exactly do you know which strangers are deeply sad? Oh, yes, you can usually look at someone's nonverbal communication, like the expression on his or her face! A frown very often means the person is sad.

And that's pretty much exactly the point.

Women, especially those who are young, unmarried, childless and haven't had to experience anything remotely resembling something close to hardship, nonetheless seek to channel mildly negative (and incredibly exaggerated) emotions like it's their adolescent birthright. They walk around complaining about everything from the hassle of getting ready in the morning to the massive insult of something innocuous said to them (or just about them) the night before. We know. We listen to your cell phone calls. I mean, how can we not? You broadcast them for all to hear! We know just how inane your supposed "struggles" in life really are. We know it even more acutely than Sally on the other end of the unfortunate line does.

If we acted like that we'd make ourselves sad, too.; 6/16/13, 12:30 PM
acm said...: That came across as harsh. Really, though, I can't think of a polite way to "remind" a stranger to smile. How do most people like to be cheered up by a stranger? I guess simply saying "Good morning" or "lovely weather, isn't it?" or simply smiling broadly, yourself, at someone who looks blue would be polite ways to cheer someone up, and I've never been offended at those, even when I was genuinely sad. Those people are actually trying to be nice though. Reminding someone to smile is roughly like reminding someone to stand up straight----even if it would be good for that person and nicer for you to look at in public, its not your business and you have no way of knowing their situation (maybe they have an injury that harms their posture, maybe they are really sad for good reason) anyway.; 6/16/13, 12:31 PM
acm said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/16/13, 12:36 PM
Nomennovum said...: So Ritmo and Nomennoven agree that women suck? -- Paco Wove

You are making a big mistake, there, Paco. Woman are wonderful. You just have to recognize and deal with their shortcomings, so you can appreciate them more. They are not mysterious. They are just different. American women, however, are quite flawed, because so much is given to them, but so little asked in return.; 6/16/13, 12:38 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: How do most people like to be cheered up by a stranger? I guess simply saying "Good morning" or "lovely weather, isn't it?" or simply smiling broadly, yourself, at someone who looks blue would be polite ways to cheer someone up, and I've never been offended at those, even when I was genuinely sad.

That's the difference between women and men. Women are susceptible to social contagion and feel that being smiled at impersonally is infectious (or flattering if done in the "right" way). Whereas I, as a guy, would find that shallow. Interaction is minimized, no cost to you, right? Just broadcast your own inner state. And then, the conversation about weather is just your way, as a woman, to separate the cunningly sophisticated conversationalists from the clods who are turned on by more than just the sunshine. Sunshine's good for plants and good for people but some of us would like to think that others can have an affect on our general state of mind also.; 6/16/13, 12:39 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: American women, however, are quite flawed, because so much is given to them, but so little asked in return.

And there's our greatest agreement, Paco. American women are entitled beyond all measure. Listen to what Mick Jagger said about them in Some Girls. It's hilarious and very true to the mark.

American men feel like they can have the world. Mold it and remake it according to their own desires and responsive to their conveniences. Not such a bad thing. But American women feel that they can do this to their men. Which is disastrous.; 6/16/13, 12:41 PM
bagoh20 said...: "How exactly do you know which strangers are deeply sad?"

First of all that's probably only the case 1 out of 10 times, but so what? Why would someone trying to cheer you up make you angry at them? I'm saying that the automatic reaction is the wrong one. The poor me, I'm a victim, and you should feel bad for me stance that some people walk around with 24/7 is just a pain in the ass, and is itself just about as rude as one can be in public.

I don't tell people to smile - I'm too shy for that, but I do try to make them smile,...
at gunpoint if necessary.; 6/16/13, 12:43 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I think American women have this pathology because unlike other societies, Americans are very independent, very mobile and always on the move. But women require social structure. And in America they don't know any better and therefore attempt to find one man around whom they can project an entire social structure into and of himself. No man is that powerful, but in the American woman's head, he needs to be. She has no other social structure to which to turn. No village, no extended family network (usually), no stable set of core values or principles connecting her to the place of her birth and the people who watched her grow up. So she reinvents all that in her proverbial knight in shining armor.

All other men are dogs. Or pigs. Or something.; 6/16/13, 12:44 PM
Nomennovum said...: So she reinvents all that in her proverbial knight in shining armor.

... who never shows.; 6/16/13, 12:46 PM
Paco Wové said...: Ah, you're saying American women suck. Got it. My mileage has varied.; 6/16/13, 12:46 PM
Paco Wové said...: I mean, seriously, you guys sound like fucking whiny losers to me. Sorry you can't hack our women.; 6/16/13, 12:47 PM
acm said...: Did everyone else realize that Rhythm is insane?

Also, bagoh, I wanted to say something about how you said that smiling at catcallers instantly shakes them, makes them realize you're a human, not an object. Nope! Well meaning men have said that, and maybe its true of some catcallers, but my experience is that if you smile back at a person, he thinks his behavior is welcome. Smiling at a guy who yelled something at me just led to the guy circling back to bother me some more. Generally I think the best advice is to ignore.; 6/16/13, 12:48 PM
Paco Wové said...: Or maybe you just attract the whiny loser women for some reason.; 6/16/13, 12:49 PM
Michael said...: I used to see construction workers cat calling and whistling at women and often saw the great smiles they induced in those women who knew they had earned and deserved them. It was all in fun. That was twenty or thirty years ago in New York before everybody got so uptight. Today the cat calls, if any, are probably menacing. They don't make the women any angrier than they already are. A stalemate of anger more or less.; 6/16/13, 12:49 PM
rhhardin said...: Let a smile be your penumbra.; 6/16/13, 12:50 PM
bagoh20 said...: Giving the impression that you are unhappy when you don't have to is like farting in an elevator all day long.; 6/16/13, 12:50 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I mean, seriously, you guys sound like fucking whiny losers to me. Sorry you can't hack our women.

Survey other men around the world, loser. Starting with Mick Jagger. Lol!

Paco knows women better than Mick Jagger. Now you're just the kind of bullshit artist that American women LOVE!; 6/16/13, 12:51 PM
Paco Wové said...: On this Father's Day, I'd like to say my American spouse and American daughter absolutely rock. And I hope they wouldn't give Ritmo or Nomen the time of day, let alone a smile.; 6/16/13, 12:51 PM
acm said...: Why would someone trying to cheer me up make me angry? Like I said, trying to cheer me up doesn't offend me. Reminding me to smile does.; 6/16/13, 12:51 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Did everyone else realize that Rhythm is insane?

Did everyone else realize that acm is too complicated to be worth the effort?; 6/16/13, 12:52 PM
Paco Wové said...: "Survey other men around the world, loser. Starting with Mick Jagger"

Sorry, R. I'd rather actually live life than read surveys about it on the Internet.; 6/16/13, 12:53 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: On this Father's Day, I'd like to say my American spouse and American daughter absolutely rock. And I hope they wouldn't give Ritmo or Nomen the time of day, let alone a smile.

You're so lucky to be the star of two people's worlds, Paco. One who you made (no narcissism or self-indulgence in that) and one who had no other choice but to sign up for a lifetime commitment with... well, you of all people!

Does your dog love you, too?; 6/16/13, 12:54 PM
Nomennovum said...: But I have never, ever, considered it as anything but rude, intrusive, and nails-on-blackboard grating to have some stranger walk up to me and demand that I "smile!". -- Anglelyne

I have sometimes seen a woman so beautiful, having that ineffable quality that I find so attractive, but who seems so unhappy, that I am tempted to say to her "Smile! It's OK." But I resist the temptation, because it's not cool to fawn.; 6/16/13, 12:54 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Sorry, R. I'd rather actually live life than read surveys about it on the Internet.

In other words, you'd rather invent a world in your own head to live in than discover the factual reality of what everyone else actually experiences. Got it!; 6/16/13, 12:55 PM
Nomennovum said...: And I hope they wouldn't give Ritmo or Nomen the time of day, let alone a smile.

Now I know you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.; 6/16/13, 12:56 PM
bagoh20 said...: "Smiling at a guy who yelled something at me just led to the guy circling back to bother me some more."

This is where a fart is appropriate, followed by hacking up a nice luggie.; 6/16/13, 12:56 PM
madAsHell said...: but so little asked in return.

Really??
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion.; 6/16/13, 12:58 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/16/13, 12:59 PM
Ipso Fatso said...: "I think it's hard for people to talk in NYC, where there's no custom of saying "hi" when you walk by someone…" Althouse

Very true. Big cities are very different for woman than small towns. By being stoic, it's called self preservation. In a big city you do not know who you are sitting next to, walking by, etc., and for a woman to smile at a random guy invites his attention and some potential big problems where in smaller towns there is more a sense of community and protection. I have known some very beautiful women and they all to some degree develop a tough exterior when out and about. They are going to generate a lot of unwanted attention anyway and that is one way to manage it.; 6/16/13, 1:01 PM
bagoh20 said...: "This is where a fart is appropriate, followed by hacking up a nice luggie.".

If he still wants you, then he's a keeper. Don't blow it by forgetting to smile.; 6/16/13, 1:02 PM
acm said...: If he still wants you, he's a keeper.

-----

Not sure when being turned on by gas and snot became a good thing.

: (; 6/16/13, 1:05 PM
Dante said...: The poor me, I'm a victim, and you should feel bad for me stance that some people walk around with 24/7 is just a pain in the ass, and is itself just about as rude as one can be in public.

People who constantly feel sorry for themselves need to watch "The Killing Fields." If they still feel sorry for themselves, they are stupid.; 6/16/13, 1:10 PM
Anonymous said...: bagoh20: I would appreciate someone telling me to smile.

Aridog: So if I am not smiling, go ahead, remind me. I might need it.

(Just to get in a pleasant exchange with you gentlemen before Rit and Nove drive everybody out of the joint with their gassing.)

I note you gentlemen being conditional and subjective here, leading me to suspect your knowledge of being subjected to the "smile command" is mostly theoretical. I think acm makes a good point when she analogizes it to being told to stand up straight. In other words, nagging. You're never going to have the experience of being a young woman, but surely men can understand nagging. You hate being nagged, right? It's like that. In this case by random strangers on the street. Which you are walking down. Minding your own busines. But "smile!"-ers are harmless and mean well, you say? So do nags. But you still want to kill them, right?

I would appreciate someone telling me to smile. Not in a rude way of course - that never works regardless of the message, but in a friendly or cheerful manner.

I'm having a hard time conceiving of a non-rude way to deliver an imperative to smile. To someone you know. To a stranger, I'd say it's impossible.; 6/16/13, 1:13 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: Not sure when being turned on by gas and snot became a good thing.

: (

Body functions make people horrible, and completely unworthy of being wanted! Booo!; 6/16/13, 1:15 PM
Nomennovum said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/16/13, 1:17 PM
Nomennovum said...: I mean, seriously, you guys sound like fucking whiny losers to me. Sorry you can't hack our women. -- Paco Wove

My love for my country does not mean I have to love everything about it or everyone in it, Paco. I'd love to compare with you who is the bigger loser, me or you, but it's hardly worth it. I suspect, though, anyone who would make silly conclusions such as yours, with so little information, would come out the worse.; 6/16/13, 1:35 PM
bagoh20 said...: "I'm having a hard time conceiving of a non-rude way to deliver an imperative to smile.

Yea, it can't be an imperative. I understand what you're saying about people nagging, but I have rarely seen it done that way. You're just remembering the one time someone did it long ago, and forgetting all the wellcome times since, when some happy person snapped you out of a funk.

You just smile, or say something pleasant or maybe a little humor to help improve someone's mood when they look like they need it. It's like seeing someone struggling with a bunch of packages and you offer to help. If they say no, then fine. Help someone else.

Now I know many of us believe we have to be all angst ridden to look intelligent. Being happy is so naive. I just gave that up a long time ago, and I realize now it was bullshit. Being openly happy is a sign of humble confidence, and to me it shows a well adjusted person who is actively working to make his world a better place starting with himself. I see it as a responsibility to people I encounter.; 6/16/13, 1:58 PM
Steve Koch said...: Rhythm and Balls said...
"I think American women have this pathology because unlike other societies, Americans are very independent, very mobile and always on the move. But women require social structure. And in America they don't know any better and therefore attempt to find one man around whom they can project an entire social structure into and of himself. No man is that powerful, but in the American woman's head, he needs to be. She has no other social structure to which to turn. No village, no extended family network (usually), no stable set of core values or principles connecting her to the place of her birth and the people who watched her grow up. So she reinvents all that in her proverbial knight in shining armor.

All other men are dogs. Or pigs. Or something."

Impressed that Ritmo/Rhythm was focusing on discussing an idea rather than insulting people. I don't agree that most women are not connected to their families cuz communications are so great nowadays that it is easy to stay in touch and share pictures and video, including realtime video.

I do think that it is completely normal for wives to attempt to improve their husbands (no shorts) but that has been true my entire life and I would not be surprised if that has been true forever. Women are a civilizing influence.; 6/16/13, 2:03 PM
Alex said...: Ritmo is unusually sane today on this topic.; 6/16/13, 2:04 PM
Dust Bunny Queen said...: I think the other elephant in the room, though, is the blatant classism that fuels female sexual narcissism. I think that what they object to most is that it's construction workers doing it rather than guys in double-breasted pinstripe suits, driving Maseratis.

There is truth in this too. The women who take offense are generally don't think that "those guys" on the construction crew are up to their standards. I never took offense as long as it wasn't obscene or I didn't feel like I was going to be stopped or physically intruded upon. Just wave and smile as you are walking on. What's the harm? Someone thinks you are sexy or look nice. Acknowledge the compliment. Enjoy it ladies, because that time will have come and passed.

On the other hand, I have never ever seen guys in pin stripe suits hanging around on the street corner and whistling and cat calling. Maybe Zoot Suits. But not Stock Brokers. They have other ways to be obnoxious :-)

So maybe it IS a class-ism thingy. Some guys just don't act that way.

OTH: I've never had someone (other than a photographer) command me to smile. I wouldn't dream of telling someone how they should arrange their face. Who knows what is going on in that person's life or head. It isn't my business to nag them into smiling.

I strike up conversations with total strangers men and women all the time. I had a nice long conversation the other day with a guy in the grocery aisle about French Bread, why we can't get unsliced loaves and he commented on the costs in the stores and we both reminisced about how wonderful REAL SF Sour Dough is. I learned that he is a tourist from Marin and is visiting with some friends in the area to go fly fishing and I gave him the directions to a place where he can actually get onto the river with owner's permission and some tips on good areas to fish. Among other conversation where we both left smiling. I do it all the time....if someone wants to talk. If not....then not.

Just smiling and talking to someone isn't a sexual come on.; 6/16/13, 2:14 PM
Anonymous said...: bagoh20: Giving the impression that you are unhappy when you don't have to...

Where did this "giving the impression that you're unhappy" come from? We're talking about the simple state of not having a smile on one's face at some particular public moment.

Not the rancorous sourpuss in your office, not the person who snarled and barked at you when you smiled and said "good morning".

You're adding all kinds of backstory here that just ain't there in encounters with the Smile Nazis.; 6/16/13, 2:43 PM
Paco Wové said...: "focusing on discussing an idea rather than insulting people"

So did Mick the Birther. Didn't make the ideas any sounder.

I'm generally highly suspicious of blanket generalizations about large groups of people, especially when they are not backed up by any evidence, and serve mainly to make the speaker feel good about themselves.; 6/16/13, 3:01 PM
bagoh20 said...: "You're adding all kinds of backstory here that just ain't there in encounters with the Smile Nazis.".

Oh, I see. I can't tell you to smile, but you can reject my backstory. Now, I'm pissed. That's gonna ruin my whole day, and I don't care if it shows.

All you had to say was: "Bago you look great today, and I think you're awesome. When you smile, it lights up my whole world".

But, noooooo, you had to pick on me. If I don't comment ever again, then you'll be sorry.; 6/16/13, 3:23 PM
Anonymous said...: All you had to say was: "Bago you look great today, and I think you're awesome. When you smile, it lights up my whole world".

Oh, bag, we all know that goes without saying, sugar.; 6/16/13, 3:42 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: On the other hand, I have never ever seen guys in pin stripe suits hanging around on the street corner and whistling and cat calling.

Lol. That's because they don't need to. ;-)

But you should see what those guys are up to on their, er, "off-hours". At least in sleazier places on the East coast.

Thanks for being honest.

Re: Alex and Steve, you almost make me wonder if politics is driven from much deeper divisions - i.e. differences in male-female psychology and who wants to transcend and challenge them or perpetuate them.

The potential of electronic communication is awesome but as all the Facebookers finally found out, it drives itself in a way that becomes anything but real-life. Some people like video-chat... I find it a poor substitute but love a video of my two-year old nephew and his mom doing that with his grandmother. Great stuff, the way these kids are adopting it and incorporating it as if it were, but there is really something to be said for actually living together. That's where you find out if someone, male or female, actually has the stuff of civilizing.

Good thing figuring out sex and psychology was as important to me (or maybe much moreso) than politics, eh. You'll discover the answers to more of life's mysteries that way. Or at least, you'll be more content with them.; 6/16/13, 4:05 PM
Nomennovum said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; 6/16/13, 4:11 PM
Bleach Drinkers Curing Coronavirus Together said...: I like evidence, too, Paco. Check out what this woman reported, what with the advent of plethysmography and all that jazz. The trickiness of it is that humans are infinitely diverse in their tastes, and change over time, but for that very short period of time from puberty to perimenopause, hormones actually do make a difference in how one goes about thinking about and engaging in a whole lot of behaviors. Not really all that controversial, except to the PC crowd and Feministing's editorial board.

That's why I actually admire them, in a very narrow and limited way. Challenging the darker aspects of one's nature isn't a horrible thing. The problem with the leftists though is they just want it to be a one-way street. Not a responsible approach. The way power is misused doesn't absolve the less "powerful" from understanding how and why they would misuse it, too.; 6/16/13, 4:14 PM
VanderDouchen said...: tl;dr

Happy Father's Day.

/sarc; 6/16/13, 7:52 PM
CityofMisfitToys said...: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmw1yYRdDOM; 6/16/13, 10:01 PM
Aridog said...: Angelelyne said ...

I'm having a hard time conceiving of a non-rude way to deliver an imperative to smile.

Just smile yourself when seeing someone else. It's only an "imperative" is some enforcement is involved. No words are necessary, on that aspect I'll agree.

Otherwise, in my opinion, we've made simple cheerful civility too complex these days. I'd not likely issue cat calls, but meeting eyes and smiling really as made my life more secure in places where it was not otherwise.

And...it is only "nagging" if the person doing it is wrong. For example, I'd love to forcefully tell that slob of a President we have to get his fricking feet off the furniture that is not his to own. If that pissed him off, I'd smile.; 6/17/13, 5:41 AM
Anonymous said...: Aridog: Just smile yourself when seeing someone else. It's only an "imperative" is some enforcement is involved. No words are necessary, on that aspect I'll agree.

OK, you agree that you shouldn't walk up to people on the street and demand that they smile for you. That's all we're talking about here, Ari. Nobody's arguing for uncivil behavior, so I don't know why you're attaching this point to some thesis on a decline in civil behavior. Minding your own business and respecting people's privacy in public spaces is also part of civility, no?

...we've made simple cheerful civility too complex these day.

There's nothing civil or particularly "cheerful" about getting in the face of strangers in the street and demanding that they smile for you. If you care about civility, stop defending the behavior of rude people.; 6/17/13, 7:14 AM
acm said...: Yeah, "just smile yourself" is good. I don't know why, when we talk about hating when people say "smile, sweetheart!" people act like we're saying smiling is bad. The poster in question didn't say "Stop smiling at women", or "Stop being friendly", it said "Stop telling women to smile.". I guess since most of the men on here wouldn't tell a stranger to smile, they have trouble believing that it does happen, so they relate to the (completely acceptable and polite) ways they behave toward unsmiling women?

Guys, if you've never told a strange woman to smile, or otherwise rudely called out to her, we're not talking about you. No one wants you to stop saying "Good morning" or smiling. Yes, we agree that smiling faces are nicer to look at that unsmiling ones.; 6/17/13, 8:34 AM
Nathan Alexander said...: Luckily, Obama has the solution to this:
Ruin the economy so that there are no more construction projects for people work.
Result: no construction workers to leer and catcall.

Success!; 6/17/13, 8:39 AM
Aridog said...: Anglelyne said...

If you care about civility, stop defending the behavior of rude people.

I've never been shot at by smiling people.; 6/17/13, 11:53 AM
Aridog said...: Anglelyne said...

OK, you agree that you shouldn't walk up to people on the street and demand that they smile ... There's nothing civil or particularly "cheerful" about getting in the face of strangers in the street and demanding that they smile for you

I should have followed my instinct and called this post thesis bullshit, which I think it is...period.

I'd love to see some statistics of how frequently this "getting in their face and demanding a smile" event occurs on the average urban or sub-urban street.

Give a prize to Tatayana Fazlalizadeh and her campaign for publicity and public littering [also a rude behavior]. Like anyone even in Bed-Sty gives a rat's tinker-dang.; 6/17/13, 12:04 PM