"He could have gotten behind an immigration bill, but getting behind this immigration bill, another cooked-up-in-a-backroom you’ve-got-to-pass-it-to-find-out-what’s-in-it monstrosity was a mistake. His second mistake, and the really fatal one, has been expressions of contempt toward his base. Suggesting that people who don’t support his bill are racist, and that American workers are dumb, is political poison. And his staff should know better than to say this kind of thing to any journalist, however friendly-seeming. All in all, a really disappointing performance from Rubio."
Writes Instapundit.
But why did the Freshman arrive at this hubris? How did he get into this position in the "Gang of 8" from which he could do this overreaching?
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist.
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155 comments:
Oh, come on. He's not that smart.
30 million new freeloaders.
Get out the Obamaphones!
Insane and inane hopes? No. He spoke very eloquently and intelligently about issues. It was neither insane nor inane to support him. What he is doing now makes him a lot more like McCain or Graham than what he presented himself as.
Well, he obviously hires stupid people. You can't be that honest with the press. You're not going to get votes when you tell the press your current constituency sucks at working and we have to import a bunch of new people who don't even speak the language.
I know. I know. RACIST!!!
Yes, what Mark O said.
Conservatives should get behind a real candidate. Someone like Ted Cruz or Sarah Palin.
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that _______________ reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist.
How many people would've concluded this ↑ was about Marco Rubio?
How did he get into this position in the "Gang of 8" from which he could do this overreaching?
McCain, Graham, and the RNC convinced him that the Republicans will win "hispanic" votes if we get a "Hispanic" guy out there talking about how we're going to give all these illegals human and decent treatment. Said treatment will get a good Republican like Rubio in the White House.
That's how.
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb
Yeah Ann, because it is like totally unfathomable that Rubio made a bunch of statements that would lead people to make assumptions about his political views.
Anyone who thinks something about Rubio is a totally dummy! Too bad they're not as smart as a law professor, huh?!
Chip S., are you implying that our President has a low opinion of the people who elected him?
Taking offense is probably the best way to refute the claim that Mexican workers perform well enough and for less.
Well, Bob, I hear that he's really smart, so what else could he think?
It's a twofer for the Dems. Destroy a potential Republican candidate and load the electorate in their direction like a set of crooked dice.
it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him
You couldn't provide an example of this if the grand prize were a $1,000,000, genius.
You know, Rubio strikes me as a guy who can apologize and make it a real apology. That fat guy in NJ who is currently dead to me could probably pull off a similar feat.
Not saying it will happen, just that it could.
-XC
I remember seeing Obama's convention speech in 2004 and thinking "that guy could be President". Rubio doesn't have that any more than McCain, Kerry, or any other recent losers. Christie has that, but I don't trust him as far as I can throw him, which is not very far.
Rubio has made two mistakes:
1) He wants the media and political insiders to like him.
and
2) He thinks that if he panders just enough, becomes almost a Democrat, they will.
How 'd that work out for Sen. McCain?
Why are we talking immigration when we have so many unemployed??
....inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist.
This was a system thrust upon us by the liberals / democrats: this obsession with diversity and the constant charge that republicans were a bunch of white guys.
If Rubio was pushed out in front, it was to demonstrate that the republican ranks includes people from other backgrounds and that Hispanics can believe in limited government principals.
Rubio, however, has been a disaster on this immigration thing.
Gee, maybe the National Review editors were right that Rubio was falling into Senator Schumer's trap.
The illegals are already citizens. Of Mexico.
The US is our country, we get to say who lives here.
If you don't want to assimilate, no thanks. Probably you can find a country more comfortable for you.
That was our immigration policy once.
Then there are structural issues. You can't have a welfare state with an open border.
I'd be more worried about immigration from Muslim majority countries than Mexico, by the way, but the numbers of Mexicans is wiping out the southern border states and may be more pressing.
Rubio himself is a liar. He'd do well in the Obama administration.
Bob Ellison--you would need a catapult to throw Christie.
I do see a parallel between Rubio and Mr Obama--watch what they do, and not what they say.
madAsHell said "Why are we talking immigration when we have so many unemployed??"
This is a challenging question. The economy is not a zero-sum game. Immigration tends to boost the economy. However, it probably also tends to depress low-end wages and employment.
But we have to remember that a free people with trust in government will tend to enrich themselves, and the people around them.
Rubio never believed in a bordered America. The giveaway is his assurance that "We'll get to securing the border AFTER amnesty." Sure you will.
Lovin' the Republican cannibal party. Let the eating continue!
The economy is coming back, Democrats will do just fine next year, Hillary in 2016. All the while Republicans focus on made up "scandals" and demand even greater group think and ideological purity among their own.
COOL!!!
Chip S., are you implying that our President has a low opinion of the people who elected him?
I'll answer!
Contra Robert Cook, our President has a low opinion of everyone except Marxists/Socialists (Ayers, Chavez, et al).
Lovin' the Republican cannibal party. Let the eating continue!
The economy is coming back, Democrats will do just fine next year, Hillary in 2016. All the while Republicans focus on made up "scandals" and demand even greater group think and ideological purity among their own.
COOL!!!
Insane and inane? So conservatives made him doit? Rubio's actions are the fault of conservatives? Holy smokes.
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist.
Remove "at least rather" and "a tad", and you've got a description of Obama's apparent assessment of most Americans, both his supporters and "the enemy."
Why isn’t it Mexico’s responsibility to figure out a way to employ their high-school drop-outs?
Jay said...
it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him
You couldn't provide an example of this if the grand prize were a $1,000,000, genius. "
What Jay said.
And a real example--not the typical Althousian up-swelling of 'I'm so much smarter than all of the rest of you therefore you wouldn't understand my brilliance' that passes for genius 'round here.
I am perplexed at the stubborn willfulness driving the Senate. Nobody I know, right OR left, is excited about either the immigration bill, or our involvement in Syria. The whole Senate is marching like lemmings to the cliff, dragging us with them. What the hell is going on? This seems like an unprecedented level of insulation from the mood of the country. Dangerously so.
Jay Retread said...
The economy is coming back, Democrats will do just fine next year,
Laugh out loud funny.
Gang of 8 poisoned him. Those democrat turds are so nice.
Roger J.-- perhaps a Trebuchet would be best. There are some excellent YouTube videos.
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist
Says the same woman who claims America somehow "studied" Obama.
You also don't seem to understand Rubio didn't actually make the comment.
And:
Rubio spokesman, Alex Conant, e-mails an explanation:
We strongly objected to the magazine including that background quote in the piece because it’s not what Sen. Rubio believes or has ever argued. In truth, Sen. Rubio has always said the reason we need a robust temporary worker program is to create legal avenues for US businesses to meet labor needs when not enough Americans apply for jobs. This is a persistent issue in many industries, like agriculture, and has been a draw for illegal immigration in the past. The legislation that Sen. Rubio agreed to sponsor creates a robust temporary worker program to meet our economic needs while protecting American workers and wages.
Sen. Rubio believes that American workers can compete against anyone in the world.
This amnesty bill will save me money.When the RNC calls asking for contributions I'll politely decline.
"Jay Retread said...
The economy is coming back, Democrats will do just fine next year,.."
Record numbers of people on food stamps. Record number of workforce on
'disability' as the chronically unemployed seek a gubmint out in desperation.
Get back to us when these numbers change.
I admit to being kind of confused about the back story. This looks like a lot of inside-baseball chatter. Battah battah battah battah SWING battah. Going to the link doesn't offer any context.
Was Rubio's aide positioning himself against labor unions or against workers?
Apparently the context is W Visas, which seemingly have the virtue of being byzantine:
Specifically, a new class of visas—W visas—will be created. These are being described by many in the press as visas for guest workers, but labor sources don't like that characterization and would say instead that W visas are an alternative to guest workers.
Rubio siding with the Chamber of Commerce seems to mean he is against a cap on the Visas and the need to certify shortages in the specific occupations for which they are issued.
Rubio's aide could have said "American workers can compete against anyone. They are smart and adaptable. Thus we think that a regulatory regime that presumes static occupational categories is unwarranted."
And with this accolade to the American labor force, Rubio could have taken the exact position that he took.
You know what's the weirdest and funniest thing in all this? Time after time Republicans get up and grossly insult Group X, proclaim in the most explicit language that they are worthless and inferior in every way to the newcomers and not-yet-here that the elite (of both parties) want to replace them with, abusing them in language that makes "bitter clingers" rhetoric seem emollient and diplomatic, all the while extolling and flattering Group Y, with fact-free assertions, for their superiority to the untermenschen of Group X. And across the land we hear hysterical denunciations of the Stupid Party for being racist against Group Y.
Too funny.
To make a scapegoat of Rubio is more than a little unfair since he is just trying to clean up a mess created by others.
Illegal immigration is driven by employer demand for cheap labor.
Illegal Job Creators --- create Illegal Jobs --- attract Illegal Immigrants
It is a very simple problem conceptually. Hundreds of thousands of employers create jobs for millions of illegal immigrants, Yet, somehow this is Rubio's fault?
To anyone that doubts this simple calculus look at this graph. During the Great Bush Recession when the jobs dried up the illegal immigrants went home. There is only one 'bad' guy here, the illegal job creators.
Let's have 11 million Americans immigrate to Mexico and behave the same way as a significant number of Mexican immmigrants do here: e.g., take low-paying jobs and depress wages, access government services for free, speak English and demand Anglophone accomodations, over-burden the education system, create no-go zones for Mexicans in the inner cities, and demand full citzens' rights. See how they like it.
I mean, fair's fair.
"Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist."
Maybe so, but certainly no more so than Obama did.
What's the problem? This was fixed the last time we put our trust in our government to write legislation to address the perceived problem and secondly to enforce laws as written. So what went wrong?
Please explain if you will, for I am slow on the uptake sometimes, a caveman frightened and confused by your ... never mind that, let me put it another way. I tire of this perennial problem that seems so advantageous to Party to never have solved. It is a false and rotten dilemma presented by Party operatives and not for our country's best interests. It makes me mad to even be talking about this. It erodes my trust even more below zero.
Anglelyne, can you provide an example of your assertion?
Rubio was always the Republican's Obama. An ethnic minority who came from humble beginnings and who could deliver a great speech, but who had never, you know, actually done anything. Now Rubio has done something. He would have been better off sticking to the Obama script and kept to saying pretty things.
Jay retread: the economy may be breathing hard, but it sure isn't coming.
As for influx of soon to be legal workers from Mexico, as note above, they will IMO, displace American low wage earners; AND they will be in completion with the now illegals. Every contractor with whom I have done business has a crew of Mexican workers. I suspect those workers the (presumably) illegals have already displaced American low wage workers, at least where I live. Anyone remotely familiar with supply and demand should be able to figure this out.
Another issue, I suspect, one of those unintended consequences will be to create a two tiered system among Mexicans in the United States.
A prudent country with prudent leaders would first count and register those illegals who are willing to come out of the shadows before we offer any of them blanket legalization and puny financial fines for breaking our laws and violating our borders.
I notice the usual preponderance of "how'd that work out for. . . " smarminess here. Can't we retire the stupid phrase, which was stupid the day Sarah Palin first used it? I guess not, because it is the cheap coin of the realm for the fake all-knowingness that passes for wisdom in the blog comments world. Rubio is just the latest disappointment for this purist set, there will be others. To the guillotine with them all, eh?
Illegal Job Creators --- create Illegal Jobs --- attract Illegal Immigrants
Can I then assume you would be in favor of increased scrutiny of employers using illegal labor which would include punitive fines of the employer and automatic deportation of the illegal workers?
ARM--you may want to distinguish between "illegal job creators," and illegal hiring. There is considerable difference between the two IMO.
However, the far more likely scenario isn't that Rubio thinks his voters are stupid and racist, but rather, that the voters he needs to run for national office are.
After all, he only needs to look at those who voted for Obama, especially in '08.
What else would he, or could he, learn about the electorate from that election?
Seeing where he is...
Rubio is a Snowmen
He swears this time is different, he swears he sees something nobody else sees and we are fucked for letting him.
Rubio is either a traitor... or he was never an American to begin with.
If you accept the premise that most, if not an overwhelming majority of those directly benefiting from amnesty would vote Democrat, racism has nothing to do with it. It's simple self-interest.
Colonel Angus said...
Can I then assume you would be in favor of increased scrutiny of employers using illegal labor which would include punitive fines of the employer and automatic deportation of the illegal workers?
Most of these workers are 'off the books' and I have never heard a coherent plan on how best to police this issue. Clearly penalties have to be directed at the employers, since they create the problem. As the graph shows, the illegal immigrants go home of their own volition once the jobs dry up.
I seriously woudn't mind gathering the illegals up and putting them on a bus and dumping them back in their home.
It's not like we are getting the educated ones who are making a contribution.
We get the dregs of Mexico here who suck on our welfare benefits and make the country poorer.
CEO-MMP said that Jay said "You couldn't provide an example of this if the grand prize were a $1,000,000, genius."
Fish in a barrel.
Wise up, conservatives. Just snarking doesn't win the game.
"Most of these workers are 'off the books' and I have never heard a coherent plan on how best to police this issue. Clearly penalties have to be directed at the employers, since they create the problem. As the graph shows, the illegal immigrants go home of their own volition once the jobs dry up."
That's what the federal government's I-9 Form is for.
And, like any federal government program, it is working just exactly like it was supposed too.
I'm in favor of making it easier for anyone who wants to become an American to become one.
But that's not what a guest worker program is. I don't see how guest worker programs are anything but a slap in the face to the poor.
"Wise up, conservatives. Just snarking doesn't win the game."
Right.
But endless commentary on blogs like this, or its counterpart on the Left, pretty much drives no discernible effect on campaigns and elections.
After all, it's all about the "low-information" voter now, and they, generously speaking (and you know exactly who I am writing of), aren't here.
Clearly penalties have to be directed at the employers, since they create the problem. As the graph shows, the illegal immigrants go home of their own volition once the jobs dry up.
I agree. So there should be strict enforcement on employers. Shouldn't be too hard to police since employers are all supposed to complete I9 forms.
He believed everything he read in the papers.
Ann Althouse said...
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist.
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that "moderates" reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist.
Sounds just like somebody else.
Don't it?
Jay Retread said...
Lovin' the Republican cannibal party. Let the eating continue!
Wait until Democrat primary season.
The economy is coming back, Democrats will do just fine next year, Hillary in 2016.
She's "annointed" again?
Her State Department is starting to sound like her White House and her governor's mansions.
All the while Republicans focus on made up "scandals" and demand even greater group think and ideological purity among their own.
Those "made up" scandals have most of the country scared and let's see some Democrat diss same sex marriage and AmnestyCare.
AnUnreasonableTroll said...
To make a scapegoat of Rubio is more than a little unfair since he is just trying to clean up a mess created by others.
Mainly Chuckie Schumer and Harry Reid.
Illegal immigration is driven by employer demand for cheap labor.
Illegal Job Creators --- create Illegal Jobs --- attract Illegal Immigrants
It is a very simple problem conceptually. Hundreds of thousands of employers create jobs for millions of illegal immigrants, Yet, somehow this is Rubio's fault?
To anyone that doubts this simple calculus look at this graph. During the Great Bush Recession when the jobs dried up the illegal immigrants went home. There is only one 'bad' guy here, the illegal job creators.
Love this new passive-aggressive approach by the trolls.
PS Great Bush Recession????
That's rich.
It lasted 5 months under Dubya and 5 years under Choom.
No relief in sight.
free people with trust in government
Yeah....that's broken too!!
I agree with Rh.
Its a no brainer. You want more Mexicans coming over the illusion of a border?... you do what Rubio and this bill does.
Its going to make the problem worst.
He should be made to pay a price for what he is doing. I certainly don't consider him presidential material.
"But that's not what a guest worker program is. I don't see how guest worker programs are anything but a slap in the face to the poor."
We have written in public contract laws all kinds of rules re: bidding and hiring requirements and preferences.
One could easily require any employer seeking "guest workers" to first open the jobs to citizens.
It probably wouldn't work out like you'd think, or hope, (the Rubio aide's comment would have been more apt had he been talking about welfare recipients...) but we could still try it.
Rubio got his base foaming with his acidic remarks.
Sorry, GOP! Immigration Reform Won’t Win You The Latino Vote
During the Great Bush Recession
Comical.
Seventies Van. Back Doors Open: Summer Outside. Makeshift Taco Stand. Families at Picnic Tables. Marco Rubio in the Back of the Van. Ocean Pacific Shorts and Yellow T-Shirt, Surfing Scene Silkscreened Across the Front. On the Waterbed, wearing Flip-Flops. Jimmy Buffet on the Eight-Track Player. Three Mexican Teenagers Pass By, Drinking Soda Out of Waxed-Paper Cups: Marco Invites Them Inside the Van. Amigos. Baby Spiders.
Clearly penalties have to be directed at the employers, since they create the problem
I also would not lay this all at the feet of business since the Democrat party has a vested interest in importing millions of unskilled workers and goes out of its way to demagogue anyone who insists on strict border security and enforcement. After all, Democrats can largely count on Hispanic votes so restricting their entry is not in their favor.
Marco Rubio in 10/2010:
"Earned path to citizenship is basically code for amnesty."
This is a conservative position. Conservatives took him at his word.
But any excuse to find conservatives "insane," "inane,"
"dumb" and "racist."
People who voted for Obama really really should not be throwing stones.
Who doesn't disappoint YOU, Jon? My guess that would be Eric.
Businesses only benefit from low wages if they're the only ones doing it.
That is, it's a nonfactor.
Any gain from low wages gets competed away and goes to consumers, not businesses.
Rubio is a GOP Senator with an Hispanic culture familiarity.
He wisely wants to lead an Hispanic Conservative GOP wing as a new voting bloc. But the Anglo GOP conservatives want to exclude Hispanics that they declare are likely to be Democrat voters.
They are both right. It's a timing issue.
But at some point the Hispanics good values going for them to makes it foolish to declare them our enemies.
The rising tide lifts all boats... but Rubio's is taking on water.
rhhardin said...
Businesses only benefit from low wages if they're the only ones doing it.
That is, it's a nonfactor.
Any gain from low wages gets competed away and goes to consumers, not businesses.
Much like steroids in baseball. Once Mark McGuire and Jose Conseco started using, all the sluggers had to use in order to compete. Then the pitchers had to start using to be competitive.
Once one local landscape firm starts using illegal labor everyone else is forced to go the same route or go broke.
As in baseball, you have to increase the cost of using through penalties to shift the cost-benefit ratio. Attempting to restrict the supply of steroids (illegal immigrants) is largely useless.
What's interesting is there seems to be this assumption that amnesty won't lead to an increase in unemployment amongst illegals, or that they'd even be willing to "step out of the shadows" if it means losing their jobs.
Maybe I'm low-info enough to not have a real clue as to what this kerfuffle is about.
Don't get into bed with corruptocrats.
corruptocrats-(A-holes) rout Jews and conservatives into terrorist camps.
Blogger Jay said...
"it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him
You couldn't provide an example of this if the grand prize were a $1,000,000, genius."
No, and the Democrats did the same with you-know-who. We are now in an age when politicians assume that they owe nothing to those who vote for them. Data mining will fix any little disagreement.
With Democrats, that still works. With people who think, not so much.
"Insane, inane hopes"? How is it insane for conserviatives to expect a conservative act ... conservatively? As for "inane," well, I'd say the worst you can accuse conservatives and the Tea Partiers of is naïveté.
The US Senate is corrupt. We should expect new members to become corrupted by it.
Bob Ellison: Anglelyne, can you provide an example of your assertion?
Here's a recent one, wherein brother Jeb tells us, in addition to the usual bog-economist reasons given for needing an endless and ever-swelling steam of immigration (such as the misleading and highly debatable "they create more businesses"), that immigrants "love families, and they have more intact families".
The latter is flatly untrue for immigrants in aggregate. The subset for whom it is true do not have the high fertility rates he's extolling - like the native-born, they apparently do not "love families", either, since they don't have more children than they can afford. Those "family loving" high fertility immigrants he considers so superior end up having worse profiles of family and social dysfunction than the allegedly useless lazy natives. (I guess my husband and I are lazy native-born scum, and need to be schooled in family-lovin' by by our immigrant betters, lol.)
Please note the high numbers of comments to that article that completely miss the implicit (and unsupported by the facts) slagging-off of natives, and instead excoriate the Jebster for his "racism" against immigrants. (Not that I mind - serves him right to have his clueless pandering thrown right back in his face.)
You really think that quote from the Rubio aide doesn't represent the way Republicans think about American workers? I recall the Bush administration as a 2-term-long droning kissy-butt about the alleged superiority to natives of his favored group of illegals. (And to enlarge the scope of your question a bit, this piece is a quick read and has some interesting observations about "why they hate us", from the persepctive of a well-placed Mexican.)
As a general rule, in contemporary America, when someone asserts that a political position is motivated by racism, that person is a liar and a demagogue.
Suggesting a link between wishfulness and dumbness is at least understandable, if a bit risky given your history with Obama. But the link between wishfulness and racism I'm not getting at all.
Simon said...
As a general rule, in contemporary America, when someone asserts that a political position is motivated by racism, that person is a liar and a demagogue.
The problem is it's a charge that's been flung so liberally (no pun intended) that it's difficult to take seriously. In modern political discourse generally it's used as a deflection, to attack the person making an argument rather than the argument that is being made.
Anglelyne, are you trying to become Maureen Dowd?
Illegal immigration is driven by employer demand for cheap labor."
ARM get rid of welfare for healthy able bodied adults and the problem solves itself. The illegals are doing the work proud welfare recipients refuse to do.
Anglelyne said...
Anglelyne, can you provide an example of your assertion?
Here's a recent one, wherein brother Jeb tells us, in addition to the usual bog-economist reasons given for needing an endless and ever-swelling steam of immigration (such as the misleading and highly debatable "they create more businesses"), that immigrants "love families, and they have more intact families".
The latter is flatly untrue for immigrants in aggregate. The subset for whom it is true do not have the high fertility rates he's extolling - like the native-born, they apparently do not "love families", either, since they don't have more children than they can afford. Those "family loving" high fertility immigrants he considers so superior end up having worse profiles of family and social dysfunction than the allegedly useless lazy natives. (I guess my husband and I are lazy native-born scum, and need to be schooled in family-lovin' by by our immigrant betters, lol.)
Please note the high numbers of comments to that article that completely miss the implicit (and unsupported by the facts) slagging-off of natives, and instead excoriate the Jebster for his "racism" against immigrants. (Not that I mind - serves him right to have his clueless pandering thrown right back in his face.)
You really think that quote from the Rubio aide doesn't represent the way Republicans think about American workers? I recall the Bush administration as a 2-term-long droning kissy-butt about the alleged superiority to natives of his favored group of illegals. (And to enlarge the scope of your question a bit, this piece is a quick read and has some interesting observations about "why they hate us", from the persepctive of a well-placed Mexican.)
He also said they were "more fertile".
To which Miss Sarah noted, I think it’s kind of dangerous territory, territory to want to debate this over one race's fertility rate over another, and I say this as someone who is kind of fertile, herself.
And Bush 41 thinks there haven't been enough Bushes in the White House?
Jeb has become a Bush Too Far.
Amartel said...
Marco Rubio in 10/2010:
"Earned path to citizenship is basically code for amnesty."
Stop posting these wingnutty facts!
Our resident schoolmarm law prof, who hasn't a fucking clue about what Rubio has ever said on immigration by the way, has told us that if you didn't know Rubio would end up here on immigration, you're a fucking tea party dope!
So shut up.
Titus said...
I seriously woudn't mind gathering the illegals up and putting them on a bus and dumping them back in their home.
It's not like we are getting the educated ones who are making a contribution.
We get the dregs of Mexico here who suck on our welfare benefits and make the country poorer.
6/17/13, 9:14 AM
But for the democrats this a feature, not a bug. They want more poor people. Look at their policies. Dependency and poor education of minorities is their goal.
Titus said...
It's not like we are getting the educated ones who are making a contribution
Wait, what?
Don't you know we need all these new worker-visa programs so Microsoft and Dell can get these "high skilled" engineers we can't find in America?!
You sound like a tea party kook too!
Handsome and Hispanic... that's why beltway conservatives love this guy.
... but you can see from thousands of miles away that he isn't that sharp a politician.
He's no Jindal, no Rand Paul, or no Cruz.
I haven't read all of the comments yet, and I'm sure someone has already pointed this out, but:
It was insane, inane, and racist to support Rubio back when he said "an earned path to citizenship is basically a codeword for amnesty"; according to someone who voted for the worst, most corrupt president of her lifetime, primarily because he's half-black.
Shorter Althouse: Derp.
It lasted 5 months under Dubya and 5 years under Choom."
Ed: According to economists the recession ended in January 2009. So in actuality we has happened is we had a follow up recession under Choom. I wonder if certain government agencies have cowed economists in to keeping that quiet.
Jay Retread unfortunately may be right. A country foolish enough to elect Choom twice is capable of electing Hillary.
Rubio has limited himself. He has reach the highest level in government he will ever reach. Republicans never learn the lesson that when you make a deal with the Democrat-Devil you will always be the junior partner at best.
Emotional thread so far but I think I agree with Simon at 10:11 AM in view of Anglelyne that 10:08 AM, that Rubio has veered off in naked racism.
He (Rubio) may not give a shit though.
Althouse, perhaps you'd like to share with us just how you weren't fooled by Rubio, when he said that an earned path to citizenship is code for amnesty, in 2010.
How did you know he'd reverse himself? Why weren't you fooled like the rest of us poor inane racists?
Was it the vowel at the end of his name, or his slightly dusky skin tone?
It's remarkable how you're able to see these things, primarily about minority conservatives (Rubio, Herman Cain, Ben Carson). Why, in every single instance, you're able to discern that any support for these men from conservatives is due solely to racism and that they have no legitimate redeeming characteristics that might garner that support.
And at the same time, you were able to decide that a one-term senator who voted "present" more often than not was qualified to be President. Wow.
Did you ever know that you're my hero? You're everything, everything I wish I could be.
ARM: It is a very simple problem conceptually. Hundreds of thousands of employers create jobs for millions of illegal immigrants, Yet, somehow this is Rubio's fault?
If I hire a contractor to fix some problems with my house structure, and he burns down my house instead, I guess it's not his fault because he wasn't personally responsible for the existence of the original problems I hired him to fix.
(But hey, don't blame me for Rubio. I'm not a Republican, and I didn't and wouldn't hire just-another-empty-suit like Rubio to fix anything.)
Remember when the Rs used to be pushing Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice to show how diverse and open the Rs are? They both ended up voting for teh won in '08. So did JC Watts AFAIK.
I'm thinking courting the votes of illiterate peasants who sneak into the country through the desert in the middle of the night won't help the Rs much either.
It is what 50+ years of conflict theory sociology have wrought: the fringe has outgrown the bedspread.
Bob Ellison: Anglelyne, are you trying to become Maureen Dowd?
Hey, you flounce away from an honest, good-faith response with a catty non sequitur, and *I'm* Maureen Dowd?
I'll try to remember not to waste my time again doing you the courtesy of tracking down requested links, fluff-ball.
cubanbob said...
It lasted 5 months under Dubya and 5 years under Choom.
Ed: According to economists the recession ended in January 2009. So in actuality we has happened is we had a follow up recession under Choom. I wonder if certain government agencies have cowed economists in to keeping that quiet.
Real unemployment is around 22.6
Workforce participation is the worst since Bucketmouth.
Manufacturing's off.
Housing is headed for another bubble.
Real inflation is about 10%.
The "economists" (who were the ones who helped get us in this mess) looked at the stock market in '09, saw it bottomed, and did their Chip Diller.
Jay Retread unfortunately may be right. A country foolish enough to elect Choom twice is capable of electing Hillary
Don't worry, she'll screw it up again.
on-topic only from a demographics viewpoint:
Australians are smarter than most Americans, at least on their ability to see through gender war idiocy:
http://www.france24.com/en/20130617-gender-war-backfires-men-ditch-australia-pm
i dont know that he killed himself with this. But he did shoot himself in the foot. Will he bleed out and die from the wound? Not necessarily.
I get that Rubio wants to be President and take the party where he can see himself leading it, and that he's new blood knowingly/unknowingly following the current trail for bold, 'diverse' leadership a la Obama.
He's also following the incentives of our current government, where in Washington, some haven't realized how much the greatness model is under stress.
I get that Rubio grew up in Miami (of Cubano descent), and even give him the benefit of the doubt as to actually wanting to fix something. Indeed, there are demographic and cultural changes going on( the Bushes come from Texas and Florida and have 'hispanics' in the family).
But, as for upholding principles that I think are best for everyone in the longer run, a smaller government and balanced budget, and keeping the horse-traders trading efficiently and with the people keeping an eye on them...
I can't in good conscience support any more deals under the progressive moon.
Another big shit sandwich of a bill is not what we need.
***Ryan Lizza's New Yorker piece sure has riled up the hive. Gettin' played like a two-bit fiddle.
Paul Z. wrote Suggesting a link between wishfulness and dumbness is at least understandable, if a bit risky given your history with Obama. But the link between wishfulness and racism I'm not getting at all.
Exactly. It starts with Instapundit pulling the code words stunt to infer a racist subtext. While he may be reacting to some broader context (in what way, I don't know), this is a pretty underhanded attack.
Once you do the research you find out that an unnamed aide to Rubio defined the AFL-CIO's position on Visa limits as protecting marginal American workers.
That's it. No racism. Just a (politically stupid) assertion against capping the visas.
Nathan Alexander: Australians are smarter than most Americans, at least on their ability to see through gender war idiocy...
Looks like good news, at least if what I presume to understand about Australian politics is actually correct. It would be nice to see mindless "war on women" rhetoric crash and flame-out for once.
"Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist."
Actually, if what you imply is true, then both Rubio and his conservative supporters were under the impression that Hispanics are racist, and that their racism could be taken advantage of to elect a Republican. So, is it racist to believe that Hispanics are racist? Is it dumb?
I think this is a side effect of the Republican Party at war with itself and the tea party. I divide the Republican party into three parts, which have, I believe, surprisingly little overlap; social conservatives, fiscal conservatives and RINOs.
The tea party primarily comes from the fiscal conservative wing, but many chapters were hijacked by social conservatives. Fiscal conservatives genuinely believe in smaller government even if the price is the social agenda of social conservatives (like "pro-family" taxes and even DOMA.)
RINOs, like McCain, Graham, Rubio and even GW Bush are primarily left leaning social conservatives. They are true statists and despise fiscal conservatives and the tea party. They give the latter two lip service, but since they don't believe in them at all, they make faux pas. In other words, it isn't racism, but mistakes born of pretending to be what they are not.
The "We have to pass it to see what's in it" AmnestyCare will create a national db on every adult.
Honestly, legislators make lousy Presidential candidates.
When a press does even a half-hearted effort of reporting, it is extremely hard for a legislator to defend their voting record amidst all sorts of vote deals.
That's why you get "I voted for it before I voted against it."
And that even makes sense. As a legislator, you might oppose a popular bill because it didn't go far enough, or because you preferred a better bill that was still working through committee...but it doesn't matter, you voted against it, so it hurts you even if you supported the idea but hated the execution.
But an executive can propose and blame the legislature for it not passing. An executive can make pie-in-the-sky promises. If an executive signs an unpopular bill into law, he can always claim the legislature had a veto-proof majority, or that the legislature represented the constituents so if you hate it, vote the legislature out of office.
The reason we have a Senator as President now is two-part:
1) The final 3 candidates for the 2008 campaign were all Senators, so we were going to get one no matter what.
2)the press assiduously avoided doing even a half-hearted vetting effort of Obama and his actions in either election, so he never had to make even a minimal effort to defend his record
So Rubio will never be President. The press will go over his candidacy with a fine-tooth comb, and they WILL find things to make him answer for, and he will sound equivocal in doing so.
Same with Cruz, Paul, or Ryan.
Jindal, Walker, McConnell are more likely.
Even Christie has a better chance to be President than Rubio.
madAsHell said...
Why are we talking immigration when we have so many unemployed??
According to Rubio's aide, the American worker (by extension, his constituent) sucks. Now Rubio has to ask that "sucky" guy for his vote next election.
Rubio was the perfect front man for the Gang of Seven Pasty-Faced Anglos.
His first and last names ended in vowels and he had some social conservative and tea party cred to blunt opposition from those quarters.
So, the Republicans in the gang were detailed to whisper in his ear sweet nothings about support for a presidential run in 2016 lubricated with cash from Mark Zuckerberg's immigration initiative. A few Democrat strokes to his vanity as a "statesman" or something and they had him.
Unfortunately, he seldom grasps an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Rubio was a scumbag from the get-go. The problem was that he was running against an even bigger scumbag (Charlie Crist), so the Republicans had little choice in Florida but to vote for him. THey allowed themselves to be fooled into believing that he wasn't just another career politician because they were stuck having to vote for him anyway, and it's always better to feel good about a vote than bad about it. (And the Dem in the general election was worse still, hard as that is to believe - a rich Californian trying to buy the election with money ultimately "earned" from the TARP bailouts of late 2008.)
Rubio was and is a careerist politician whose sole interest is in advancing his own career. Period. Full stop. The fact that he's contemptuous of the voters should hardly be surprising, especially since they were stupid enough to elect him repeatedly, despite it all.
Rubio, however, has been a disaster on this immigration thing.
You had me at "disaster".
But why did the Freshman arrive at this hubris? How did he get into this position in the "Gang of 8" from which he could do this overreaching?
Chuck Schumer got to him clearly. Probably offered him some serious seat in return for acquiescence and silence.
To the guillotine with them all, eh?
Finally, a sensible suggestion!
eduthcer, the two best numbers for talking about the state of the current economy are these:
We're still two MILLION jobs short of where we were in December of 2007.
We're still FOUR million FULL TIME jobs short of where we were in December of 2007.
Both those numbers courtesy of the BLS, if one cares to dig a little. And I believe those numbers are cooked, as well, to make the current thugs in office look better than they are.
For centuries past, the idea that a state could be sovereign was always connected to its ability to guarantee the best interests of its own citizens. Thus, if a state could not act in the best interests of its own citizens, it could not be thought of as a “sovereign” state.
Open borders and the rewarding of people who don't respect it is not in our best interest.
It's not complicated.
Let's all realize right now that none of this can be undone. None of it.
We kill our very own, in the womb, over a whole host of reasons, one of which, I believe, includes economic insecurities.
In the midst of that, we turn around and open the border to welcome more and more takers, to give them things we are mortgaging future generations to pay for.
It's crazy stupid. You know... there is some crazy shit that's harmless. This is crazy harmful.
I will say this again:
A prudent country with prudent leaders would first count and register those illegals who are willing to come out of the shadows before we offer all of them blanket legalization and puny financial fines for breaking our laws and violating our borders.
Make that the Gang of Nine:
"The White House is playing a larger role in developing the Gang of Eight’s immigration bill than its supporters publicly admit, according to a forthcoming article in The New Yorker.
“‘No decisions are being made without talking to us about it,’ the official said of the Gang of Eight negotiations … ‘This does not fly if we’re not O.K. with it,’” a senior Obama official told author Ryan Lizza for the pending article."
IMHO, any Republican who subscribes to Jeebus is a disaster.
When I used to go to night clubs, a lot of times it coincided that I wanted to go to the club that a lot of other people also wanted to go to.
Given the limited capacities of these places, I'd imagine the clubs came to device a solution that turned out, not only mitigated the problem of limited capacity, but also created the added benefit for the club goers inside... 'We are at a place where there is a line outside of people waiting to get in'. It added value to the establishment.
Letting people in via an open border does not add value to our country. In fact I believe it diminishes it.
The very foundation, making this country uniquely qualified to say that it is better and above all the other nations in the world, is that the United States is a nation of laws.
On what grounds are we undermining the rule of law and casting aside our sovereignty?
What has Rubio discovered that he is not sharing with us?
Whoever said "I may be a low information voter...). Yes you are. Wow.
Icepick said...
eduthcer, the two best numbers for talking about the state of the current economy are these:
We're still two MILLION jobs short of where we were in December of 2007.
We're still FOUR million FULL TIME jobs short of where we were in December of 2007.
Both those numbers courtesy of the BLS, if one cares to dig a little. And I believe those numbers are cooked, as well, to make the current thugs in office look better than they are
Ice, I think a lot of things are being cooked these days. I can appreciate what it must have been like in Dusseldorf around 1937.
But every once in a while, the truth slips out.
This was his real rating before sandy, and probably was after. At this point, they can't lie too hard or they'll be found out.
There seems to be one overriding problem that promotes illegal immigration.
These illegals will work for a lower wage in unappealing jobs which negatively effects principally those in the lower socioeconomic groups most notably African-Americans.
Thus there is one simple and easy solution.
Bring back slavery.
If Kanye were awake he would say that was racism yo.
Speaking of slavery, has it occurred to anyone that betrayal of blacks in favor of more Hispanics (Hispanic gangs are already throwing their weight around in black neighborhoods) might just have negative consequences for the Demos?
That's the point. Once these hardworking Mexicans get legal there will be even fewer jobs for the brothers.
It will take a generation for unionized school teachers to indoctrinate their kids to make as lazy as those who turn their nose up at minimum wage jobs.
Of course in Barack Obama's America those minimum wage jobs flipping burgers are being filled by MBA's.
Simon retorts the Baron in a Chirbit: link
edutcher said...
Speaking of slavery, has it occurred to anyone that betrayal of blacks in favor of more Hispanics (Hispanic gangs are already throwing their weight around in black neighborhoods) might just have negative consequences for the Demos?
The vast majority of blacks are used to their situation and can't conceive of the benefits of another way.
Seeing where he is and knowing that it was the insane, inane hopes that conservatives reflexively projected onto him, he understandably views this base as at least rather dumb and a tad racist.
This is Althouse at her "cruel neutrality" worst She simply reads Rubio's mind and that of conservatives as though their petty inner processes were purely transparent to her genius. She offers no support; she just knows.
Give me a break. This post sheds more light on Althouse and her inflated opinion of herself than it does on Rubio or Republicans.
I don't recall being inane or insane over Rubio. It wasn't crazy to suppose that an important conservative Hispanic leader could emerge, particularly from the Cuban-American community of Miami. He was a fresh talent and who knew how far he might go. I didn't want him to run in 2012 since he was too new, but he bore watching. That was it.
That seemed to be how other conservatives took Rubio. There was no Rubiomania. No inanity or insanity beyond a slot to speak at the RNC last year.
Now I know more and he won't be on my list for 2016. So it goes.
I'm trying to think about this in the context of leaker Snowden and what Brooks referred to as the "mediating" institutions of civil society.
Here goes...
If you live a life unshaped by the mediating institutions of civil society, perhaps it makes sense to see the world a certain way: Life is not embedded in a series of gently gradated authoritative structures: family, neighborhood, religious group, state, nation and world. Instead, it’s just the tired, poor and huddled masses on a gigantic borderless planet of limitless recourses.
Italics mine.
How can we reasonably keep expecting people to obey the laws and pay the taxes when we keep passing laws that undermine and contradict that very covenant?
The covenant, the agreement of the citizen and the state is breaking down.
In the course of human events... ?
Baron Zemo: Thus there is one simple and easy solution.
Bring back slavery.
No no no. Under old-school slavery, I'd be responsible for feeding and housing and providing medical care for my slaves. Under new-school serfdom, I unload the cost of feeding and housing and doctoring my imported serfs (and educating their children) on taxpayers, all for the low price of bribing a politician to scare his constituents into believing that they'll be paying $100.00 a head for lettuce if they don't let me write the immigration laws. Journalists are even cheaper - they'll shill for free.
So shut up.
Lem: How can we reasonably keep expecting people to obey the laws and pay the taxes when we keep passing laws that undermine and contradict that very covenant?
The covenant, the agreement of the citizen and the state is breaking down.
Lem, you obviously weren't paying close enough attention during the first go 'round on mediating institutions. "Civil society" is a magical construct that will go right on existing, no matter what, if people like *you*, Mr. Lem, keep on believing and abiding by its norms, regardless of what the norm-scoffers, sociopaths, assorted greed-bags, hustling demagogues, and devil-take-the-hindmost political operators get up to. And if it breaks down it will be all your fault, Lem. All your fault. So get yourself back in harness there, Boxer.
Whoever said "I may be a low information voter...). Yes you are. Wow.
I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who's been extremely busy the past two weeks, you know, making a living and whatnot.
As for the American worker who can't cut it ... it's fucking true. Stupid politically, yes, but it is a reality. Local construction firms here hire Mexicans because frankly a lot of times they are better than their American counterparts.
How this affects Rubio's base seems a little inside baseball to me. If he screwed up, then fine. Let him pay at the polls. Word is that the immigration bill won't pass the house because of who's in charge of border security. If it's under the aegis of the White House, you can forget it.
Anglelyne said..
No no no. Under old-school slavery, I'd be responsible for feeding and housing and providing medical care for my slaves. Under new-school serfdom, I unload the cost of feeding and housing and doctoring my imported serfs (and educating their children) on taxpayers, all for the low price of bribing a politician to scare his constituents into believing that they'll be paying $100.00 a head for lettuce if they don't let me write the immigration laws. Journalists are even cheaper - they'll shill for free.
So shut up.
But you lose all the benefits of slavery. I mean you just keep them all drugged up and happy and in return they will pick your lettuce and sing really cool spirituals and stuff. They would be so busy pleasuring each other and creating new units for you that you won't be out of pocket. And if you have any trouble you can just sell them down the river.
That's a lot easier and cheaper than having to move into a gated community. Just sayn'
If Kanye wasn't busy fucking Kim Kardashian again after she dropped his demon seed he would say this was racist.
Rusty said...
Speaking of slavery, has it occurred to anyone that betrayal of blacks in favor of more Hispanics (Hispanic gangs are already throwing their weight around in black neighborhoods) might just have negative consequences for the Demos?
The vast majority of blacks are used to their situation and can't conceive of the benefits of another way.
They also expect protection and, when the Demos have to choose, and choose their new favorite minority, guess who loses?
EMD: I'm speaking from the point of view of someone who's been extremely busy the past two weeks, you know, making a living and whatnot.
Perfectly understandable, since this whole immigration thingie just blew up in the last couple of weeks. Everybody else here must be one of those inadequate American workers that aide was talking about, not concerned with making an honest living and whatnot.
As for the American worker who can't cut it ... it's fucking true. Stupid politically, yes, but it is a reality. Local construction firms here hire Mexicans because frankly a lot of times they are better than their American counterparts.
Yes, I'm sure all the people who were offended by those comments firmly believe that no American workers suck, and that all American workers in any field are superior to all other human beings in that field. Thank you for providing this countering anecdote. I'm sure it will turn them all into amnesty/open borders supporters.
I mean, it's not as if there's any kind of context to those words that would prime a response - no endless "jobs Americans won't do" propaganda, no history of people having to train their imported "skilled" replacements in the very jobs they were allegedly unqualified to go on holding, no law-abiding workers or businesses who've been undercut and forced to fold by competitors willing to hire illegal workers and ignore other labor laws, no...
Nope, you're right. Just contextless knee jerk reaction. Also, your implication that the existence of better workers anywhere means businesses and the workers they prefer are entitled to break the law? Excellent argument in support of CRA.
Baron Zemo: But you lose all the benefits of slavery. I mean you just keep them all drugged up and happy and in return they will pick your lettuce and sing really cool spirituals and stuff. They would be so busy pleasuring each other and creating new units for you that you won't be out of pocket. And if you have any trouble you can just sell them down the river.
That's a lot easier and cheaper than having to move into a gated community. Just sayn'
I am intrigued by your arguments but not entirely persuaded. A significant problem with the new units is that they are nothing but cost-sinks for years before they get up to production speed, even if I have tasks suitable for the little backs and fingers of immature units. Isn't it better to let other countries breed 'em up, and then import them when they reach prime working age? Tremendous cost savings. Shareholders demand it.
I also don't want to keep older, worn-out units around when they're no longer profitable. With records of ownership, there might be some problem with my driving them out to the country and dumping them when I don't need them anymore. If they find their own way back to the nearest town with a social services agency, they may finger me for dumping. If they're not my property, I see less chance of legal problems in unloading their care on society.
Also, continual importation of prime units continually expands the labor pool, making supply and demand work in my favor. I'd have to have my people run the numbers, but I'm not convinced that the gated community is not the more cost-effective option.
EMD opined:
As for the American worker who can't cut it ... it's fucking true. Stupid politically, yes, but it is a reality. Local construction firms here hire Mexicans because frankly a lot of times they are better than their American counterparts.
Clearly then the answer is open the floodgates and let even more in to displace the extant illegals. Make them all so miserable working for peanuts that even they finally figure it out.
"But senor, I am special because I paid a coyote to get me here. It's not fair that someone can just walk here and take the job I that broke the law to get."
It could be made into a reality TV show (with subtitles) which people would watch.
Anglelyne said: Excellent argument in support of CRA.
CRA? Wtf, Anglelyne. You mean CIR, right? Damned wingnuts can't even keep your acronyms straight.
Clearly then the answer is open the floodgates and let even more in to displace the extant illegals. Make them all so miserable working for peanuts that even they finally figure it out.
Yes, that's exactly what I argued. Perceptive reading between the lines of my comment!
Wisdom schmisdom. It's all about telegenicity. Oh and Latino appeal. Ummmuaa
I figure McCain and Schumer offered him a few McDonald's franchises. In case things backfired. And they've backfired. Meanwhile, savvy observers saw Rubio coming from a mile away.
So, it's up to Ted Cruz and Rand Paul. My money says they're both the genuine article. No back-slapping club-joining. Just conservative-style, take-no-prisoners politics.
This seems like an unprecedented level of insulation from the mood of the country. Dangerously so.
Dangerous for whom?
None of those assholes will suffer, no matter what happens to the rest of America.
The legislation is stupid. Not silly, but stupid. The one thing to keep in mind is that it creates a path for citizenship for those without a high school education, but does not for those STEM students and grads with college (and esp. graduate) degrees. They are relegated to H1B visas, that essentially indenture them to their employers for as long as they are in the U.S.
The fix has long been in, in this case, by the biggest high tech companies who have exported hundreds of thousands of jobs and many billions in income, who want these high skilled STEM workers to be beholden to them for their being here legally. Instead of bringing in the best and brightest, we are, instead making sure that we bring in and legalize the dumb and ignorant, and all their extended families, and keep the best and brightest on short term work visas.
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