June 16, 2013
"Politically speaking, Wisconsin and Minnesota are practically twins."
"They have voted the same way in the last seven presidential contests. They gave President Obama almost identical victory margins last fall. They share a common border, a common heritage, and the highest election turnouts in America. Yet based on how they are being governed, you would think they were two different planets...."
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127 comments:
That's what happens when morons are exactly half the population, is the thesis.
I live in Minnesota. The excesses of the last legislative session will become clear quite soon. A change will be coming in 2014.
what a terribly written piece. besides repeating himself several times it leaves open the of underlying economic conditions and the consequences of each parties actions.
the whole thing could have been written as "they are almost the same but one got redistricted democrat and the other republican. as a result power shifted and different agendas have advanced."
I did a text search for "dime" thinking I might find "dime's worth of difference."
Nope.
But Craig Gilbert's a pleasant-enough looking fellow so I don't feel cheated.
Seems to me, too, that the state with the 'good' politics is the one with the Superbowl victories.
Minnesota's winters are measurably worse than Wisconsin's are and spring often comes earlier in the Badger State. Growing up, it was a no-brainer which state had the better flagship state university. Minnesota does have more blondes, but that advantage is waning. Minnesota has 10,000 lakes, and more loons per capita. Everybody is above average in Minnesota. Wisconsin is afraid to strip mine taconite while Minnesota invented it. Minnesota has 3M while Wisconsin has Wε as in welcome. Shall I go on?
"Minnesota just became the 12th state to legalize same-sex marriage -- an unthinkable step for Wisconsin under its current government."
Craig Gilbert is either disingenuous or has forgotten that Wisconsin amended its constitution in 2006:
Article XIII, Section 13
Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in this state. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized in this state.
Is he suggesting that a Democratic legislature/"government" could override the wishes of the voters?
Mark Dayton might be the stupidest man ever to be governor.
Have you ever heard him speak?
Oh, and we have trunkful-o-ballots Sen. Al Franken, who sicced the IRS on his enemies.
We once elected Jesse "the disembodied" Ventura governor, too. He does idiot conspiracy stuff on the teevee now.
If we could find an anencephalic transgender former stripper, he/she'd be our next leader.
Have I mentioned how stupid MN has become?
The two states were settled by the same groups of people.
The difference lies in WI having an attack of sanity the last couple of years.
. Shall I go on?
Minnesota is kicking Wisconsin's ass on jobs and growing the economy? Maybe because Minnesota didn't spend their time kicking unions around and concentrating on abortion bills.
As we’ve noted in several posts (find them here and here) Wisconsin talks a better game than it plays when it comes to economic success. The facts show Minnesota performed better than the Badger State in keeping people employed during the Great Recession and adding jobs in the recovery.
Now, though, new data show Minnesota may be starting to pull away. Link
@garage: perhaps this photo is apt. Either way it's an uphill slog for states encumbered by federal mandates.
Three party politics in MN has destroyed the state. Also, Scott Walker is the face of the Wi GOP and Michele Bachmann is the face of the MN GOP -- we all know who has been more successful with moderates and the apolitical
It will be interesting to know if Minnesota's public policies will drive it into the same levels of public-debt, destruction of businesses (Especially manufacturing) and political corruption as so evident in such States as California and Illinois. (Oh well---history will provide that information.)
I also wonder if Minnesota's newspapers' editors and published letter-writers inflicted the same whining and sniveling about their Democrat's use of the delegated (By the People) political power to reapportion districts as the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel did as to the Republicans doing so in Wisconsin.
Wisconsin is #1 on stat though. Job losses.
Heckuva job Walker! Dumb ass.
It is depressing to read the comments to that article. No facts or discussion, just ad hominem and talking points. One commenter wrote that Wisconsin is now educating its children in creationism. That sounded like total bs so I followed his cite and it is a Snopes article about a test given in a South Carolina religious school. What hope is there when intelligent educated people will accept such transparent lies? My bs detector is NEVER switched off and works just fine whether I am considering a claim from "my" side or the other's. What the hell has happened to theirs?
garage mahal said...
Wisconsin is #1 on stat though. Job losses.
Heckuva job Walker! Dumb ass.
Next to NY, CA, IL?
Those places are hemorrhaging people.
"Now, though, new data show Minnesota may be starting to pull away."
Minnesota IS pulling away - in new government jobs. In the private sector, the "pulling away" is approx. 3000 jobs or a .1% difference.
Next to NY, CA, IL?
Nope. They all added jobs last year. Wisconsin lost 6800. Only one of three states that did. All Republican governors.
Now Wisconsin is the butt of jokes from Viking fans. Not that I would, but I can't defend Walker if I wanted to.
Minnesota is second only to Puerto Rico in its rate of creating new government jobs: 1.8%.
Meanwhile, Wisconsin has been shedding taxpayer-funded government jobs at the rate of -0.7%.
Illinois added 40,300 jobs; Michigan added 32,300 jobs; Minnesota 22,700 and Iowa 11,900 over the period.
garage: can you drill down in the those respective states and separate the new govenment jobs from the new private industry jobs?
edutcher said...
Next to NY, CA, IL?
Those places are hemorrhaging people.
You may want to add some facts to that bile.
Vermont and New Hampshire are demographically similar neighboring states with completely different political cultures. One is a bastion of liberalism while the other is a northern outpost of the Sunbelt.
Peter
Meade
FYI: Your wife has a government job.
garage
FYI: I know.
How is that relevant to your argument? Or are you trying to change the subject: the diffence, politically, between Minnesota and Wisconsin. If so, why?
Meade said...
How is that relevant to your argument? Or are you trying to change the subject:
His point is that there is nothing intrinsically bad with government jobs. Simply slashing government jobs without a coherent plan to boost private employment is a recipe for decline not growth. Ideology trumping economics.
AnUnreasonableTroll said...
Next to NY, CA, IL?
Those places are hemorrhaging people.
You may want to add some facts to that bile.
first, Troll didn't answer my charge.
Second, how many of those are government jobs paid for by the taxpayer and producing no new wealth?
How many are McJobs and temps?
It's called lying with statistics.
edutcher said...
Troll didn't answer my charge.
Ed the pederast apparently can't read a simple bar graph.
"Simply slashing government jobs without a coherent plan to boost private employment is a recipe for decline not growth. Ideology trumping economics."
Although some employees on the state payroll do bring money in -- eg, law professors -- most are taking money out of the public fisc. So how is the state better off if more tax money must be collected and spent to cover these jobs? Some jobs do enhance the economy, by educating the new wave of workers or by building infrastructure or keeping the peace. But hiring lots of people into govt jobs as a way to get people employed seems like a bad idea. It's true that these people pay taxes and are kept off other forms of welfare and buy products, but it can't be a workable scheme in the end to put everyone on the govt payroll, can it?
His point is that there is nothing intrinsically bad with government jobs. Simply slashing government jobs without a coherent plan to boost private employment is a recipe for decline not growth. Ideology trumping economics."
No. Economics trumps ideology. Government jobs don't create wealth. Shedding unneeded public sector employees reduces the drain on the private sector.
Ann Althouse said...
Although some employees on the state payroll do bring money in -- eg, law professors -- most are taking money out of the public fisc. So how is the state better off if more tax money must be collected and spent to cover these jobs? Some jobs do enhance the economy, by educating the new wave of workers or by building infrastructure or keeping the peace. But hiring lots of people into govt jobs as a way to get people employed seems like a bad idea. It's true that these people pay taxes and are kept off other forms of welfare and buy products, but it can't be a workable scheme in the end to put everyone on the govt payroll, can it?
This last line is a straw man. The issue is one of balance. As you correctly note, not all government jobs are bad. In fact the majority are productive, many much more so than a law professor. A pure austerity program without creative, realistic means to boost employment by other means produces decline. The evidence for this can be seen in countries such as the UK, which has also had a unsuccessful ideologically driven economy in recent years.
It's predicted Wisconsin will "grow" -0.1 and -0.5%.
Possibly the only good thing about total one government rule in Wisconsin is people will see clearly who has failed them. All the b.s. about killing unions and shoveling tax cuts to the rich will unleash the private sector. I think people will remember that.
We gave self serving Favre the benefit of the doubt for 4 years, and now he is a pariah.
AnUnreasonableTroll said...
Troll didn't answer my charge.
Ed the pederast apparently can't read a simple bar graph.
I see Troll is projecting again.
And the graph is % job growth, so my question is still valid.
This last line is a straw man. The issue is one of balance. As you correctly note, not all government jobs are bad. In fact the majority are productive
Really?
How many produce new wealth?
garage mahal said...
It's predicted Wisconsin will "grow" -0.1 and -0.5%.
The same way MI is going to grow better that 1%.
Depends on who's doing the projection and what their angle is.
Maybe what's wrong with Wisconsin is that employers are screening people who signed recalls for hiring.
Can't believe you missed that one Althouse! That story would seem to be right up your alley
edutcher said...
How many produce new wealth?
Let's think about this. The single most important technology in the modern world is plumbing. Without a clean water supply and efficient waste removal cities would collapse because of disease. Rich and poor would die off like flies. By and large this is run by the government. If you cannot see that avoiding the collapse of modern civilization is productive maybe you should address some of your assumptions.
AReasonableMan said...
edutcher said...
How many produce new wealth?
Let's think about this. The single most important technology in the modern world is plumbing. Without a clean water supply and efficient waste removal cities would collapse because of disease. Rich and poor would die off like flies. By and large this is run by the government. If you cannot see that avoiding the collapse of modern civilization is productive maybe you should address some of your assumptions.
You didn't answer the question.
In my neighborhood the contractor put in the water and sewer system with his own money. We pay the city to maintain it.
Garage conveniently ignores that Texas is leading the nation in job creation.
Only a leftist loon like garage thinks that wealth is tied to how powerful unions are.
AnUnreasonableTroll said...
How many produce new wealth?
Let's think about this. The single most important technology in the modern world is plumbing. Without a clean water supply and efficient waste removal cities would collapse because of disease. Rich and poor would die off like flies. By and large this is run by the government. If you cannot see that avoiding the collapse of modern civilization is productive maybe you should address some of your assumptions.
But it produces no wealth.
And it could all be privatized.
And probably work better.
By and large this is run by the government. If you cannot see that avoiding the collapse of modern civilization is productive maybe you should address some of your assumptions.
That sounds like the Pelosi's "stimulus" argument; those of us in private employment should just quit and either get government jobs or collect unemployment insurance and food stamps.
"Pelosi explained that the program’s multiplier effect –the amount of money generated in the local economy as the result of the subsidy– far exceeds the nearly $60 billion spent this year by the federal government and is a sure-fire way to stimulate the economy. For every dollar a person receives in food stamps, Pelosi said that $1.79 is put back into the economy. The U.S. Department of Agriculture cites an even higher figure of $1.84.
“It is the biggest bang for the buck when you do food stamps and unemployment insurance. The biggest bang for the buck,” she said."
I assume that AReasonableman is seasoned and well travelled so s/he should admire the Cloaca Maxima in Rome. I know I do. I scrambled over some barriers once to get a closer look. Fascinating.
The Cloaca Maxima is a visible remnant of an ancient sewer system under the old city of Rome. It still functions. According to the Wiki:
This public work was largely achieved through the use of Etruscan engineers and large amounts of semi-forced labour from the poorer classes of Roman citizens.
plus ça change and all that.
Rusty said...
In my neighborhood the contractor put in the water and sewer system with his own money. We pay the city to maintain it.
Contractors go broke. Almost inevitably sewage and water supply devolves to government.
I find it incredible that people cannot intuitively see that government is an absolute necessity for a safe and civil society. The evidence is abundant. Look at places where government has broken down. They are inevitably the shit-holes of the earth.
You can credibly argue about the appropriate balance between government and private enterprise. You cannot credibly argue against the necessity for government.
El Pollo Raylan said...
s/he should admire the Cloaca Maxima in Rome. I know I do.
What struck me in Rome was how close we came to creating the modern technological world 1600 years before it really began. My explanation for this failure of western civilization, too many lawyers and clerics.
AReasonableMan said...
You may want to add some facts to that bile.
What "facts" would those be?
NY and IL are losing residents.
garage mahal said...
Maybe what's wrong with Wisconsin is that employers are screening people who signed recalls for hiring.
Example 42,180 of you providing a link which does not claim what you say it does.
Watching a silly, fat, bozo like you screech about jobs is high brow comedy.
And no one here has ever suggested government isn't necessary. Apparently edutcher is correct and you are indeed a complete clown.
What struck me in Rome was how close we came to creating the modern technological world 1600 years before it really began.
This scale model of metropolitan Rome (ca 300 AD) was commissioned by Mussolini: link. The model is still housed in a museum at EUR.
garage mahal said...
Maybe what's wrong with Wisconsin is that employers are screening people who signed recalls for hiring.
From the link:
Joshua Inglett, who finished his sophomore year last month, said an aide to Walker asked him Wednesday evening whether he had signed the recall petition. He told him he had, and within hours another Walker aide left him a voice mail that made it clear to Inglett he wouldn't get the position.
So apparently the UW Board of Regents constitutes the description of "employers" (you have no fucking clue if this is even a paid appointment) and the Gov appointing people to said board is "screening"
Again, you're really, really fucking dumb.
So garagie thinks a student appointment, entirely on the discretion of the Gov, to UW System's Board of Regents is an "employer" and a reasonable troll responds to a comment about population loss in NY, IL, and California with a link to a job growth chart.
You can't make this up, folks.
Gee, I wonder if that matching is due to the lack of protections against vote fraud in both states?
Since WI is now getting some protections, we'll see if things change.
"This last line is a straw man. The issue is one of balance. As you correctly note, not all government jobs are bad. In fact the majority are productive"
Really? Care to provide even the slightest shred of support for that claim?
As you correctly note, not all government jobs are bad. In fact the majority are productive
Hysterical bullshit.
garage mahal said...
Maybe what's wrong with Wisconsin is that employers are screening people who signed recalls for hiring.
Ah, garage, if only you weren't exaggerating. Because it would be great if that were actually generally true.
1: I don't recall seeing you complain about leftists organizing boycotts against Prop 8 supporters. If it's ok for you leftists to go after people for their political actions, it's at least equally ok for us to go after the people who agree with you.
2: The case you pointed to was a gubernatorial appointment. If you sign a petition asking for the governor to be fired, he SHOULD refuse to appoint you to any position of any value. The kid's an idiot, and got what he deserved.
An unreasonable jerk - give me an example of an actual working nation that threw off it's government and devolved into a 3rd world hellhole. Way to go with the strawman.
Yeah and Somalia doesn't count.
Jay said...
As you correctly note, not all government jobs are bad. In fact the majority are productive
Hysterical bullshit.
Jay, apparently welcome to the idea of an early death from cholera.
AlexThePederast said...
give me an example of an actual working nation that threw off it's government and devolved into a 3rd world hellhole
Give me an example of an actual working nation that threw off it's government?
AReasonableMan said...
A whole bunch of stupidity.
Hey unreasonable dolt: From the (linkable) Ask.com dictionary:
Productive: 1. generating; creating
A "productive job" is one that generates or creates wealth. Public health, while valuable, does not do that.
Productive uses of wealth are ones where more money is brought in than was put out. So if you're feeling generous, a gov't worker who brings in more in grants, than it costs to employ, is a "productive" worker.
Fire fighters, cops, and public health workers may be necessary, but they're not productive.
And if you're going to try to claim they're the majority of gov't workers, I'm going to laugh in your face.
The single most important technology in the modern world is plumbing. Without a clean water supply and efficient waste removal cities would collapse because of disease. Rich and poor would die off like flies. By and large this is run by the government.
Since not only is it not necessary to run a water treatment plant or "plumbing" by government, but you can't treat or clean water without electricity, this is one of the dumbest fucking comments I've ever read.
"Maybe what's wrong with Wisconsin is that employers are screening people who signed recalls for hiring. Can't believe you missed that one Althouse! That story would seem to be right up your alley."
I didn't miss it. I found it missing information that would have made it bloggable to the national-level audience that I have.
A man did not get an appt and makes an assertion about why. He's a student at my university. I don't want to talk about him.
AReasonableMan said...
Jay, apparently welcome to the idea of an early death from cholera.
I love the fact you're pretending government jobs are all relative to water treatment.
You also don't know the meaning of the word "productive"
You also don't have the first clue how a modern water plant treats and pumps water.
You fucking idiot.
Example 42,180 of you providing a link which does not claim what you say it does.
Sorry if you're too slow to pick up on a joke.
Since the overwhelming majority of mankind's time on earth existed without 'modern plumbing' one must wonder how mankind got to all the continents and stuff.
Cholera!!!!!
garage mahal said...
Sorry if you're too slow to pick up on a joke.
Yeah, it was such a "joke"!!
I mean, total knee=slapper there!
Moron.
. I don't want to talk about him.?
Of course you don't. That would reveal what a petty, think-skinned, and vindictive little prick Walker is.
garage mahal said...
Of course you don't. That would reveal what a petty, think-skinned, and vindictive little prick Walker is.
But you posted the link as a joke!!!
Of course you don't. That would reveal what a petty, think-skinned, and vindictive little prick Walker is.
"Think-skinned" Walker is a packer-derm!
El Pollo Raylan said...
This scale model of metropolitan Rome (ca 300 AD) was commissioned by Mussolini: link. The model is still housed in a museum at EUR.
The Palazzo della Civiltà Italiana is one of the most beautiful examples of modern architecture. They may have been fascists, but they did it with style, unlike the Germans.
Contractors go broke.
Governments go broke.
And remember, just because some municipalities run water treatment plants, a majority of government jobs are productive!!!
garage mahal said...
Of course you don't. That would reveal what a petty, think-skinned, and vindictive little prick Walker is.
Guy pushes for someone else to be fired. Fails. Then asks for a favor from the person he tried to get fired. The guy he tried to get fired is a bad guy for saying no?
Are you delusional, or just an asshole?
Of course you don't. That would reveal what a petty, think-skinned, and vindictive little prick Walker is.
As usual garage thinks it's all personal, when all Walker is trying to do is reform Wisconsin government. The only thing I'd say that Walker made a true mistake was promising to create 200K private sector jobs. He had no business making such a promise.
Then asks for a favor from the person he tried to get fired.
Walker appointed the kid. His incompetent staff vetted him for 4 months. Walker was singing the praises of the pick just days before.
And Walker is too chickenshit to say why the nomination was withdrawn. Great example. Not surprising coming from this douchebag though.
"Walker appointed the kid."
No, he did not appoint the kid. He was about to appoint the kid (big difference) when Walker learned that the kid feels about him the very same way garage mahal feels about him. Now why would Governor Walker go ahead and appoint, say, garage mahal - who would like nothing less than to destroy Walker - to anything?
Walker was singing the praises of the pick just days before.
I bet he was.
Remember, you were making a joke!
The actual comments in that piece point out the greater disparities in actual outcomes between them, in which Minnesota does a lot better.
But I know. The piece is important because it focuses on the important part - i.e. the politics.
Ok.
I bet he was.
"I'm pleased to appoint Joshua to the UW System Board of Regents," Walker said. "The student's perspective is especially vital to the effectiveness of the Board of Regents, and I know he will serve the UW System and his fellow students well."
Yep, Garage, then Walker found out he was wrong, and fixed the problem.
Good for Walker.
Just out of curiosity, this "Walker said". Did Walker actually say that? Or is that from some press release?
Walker should have thrown his arms around the kid. He would have garnered a lot of respect and good will had he done so. Instead, a story that most people can immediately understand gets out there that Walker is a revengeful baby gets out there instead.
So, garage, all those lefties who boycott normal marriage supporters, are they "douchebags" too? Or is a leftist hurting a normal person for their political beliefs just the way things should be?
garage mahal said...
Walker should have thrown his arms around the kid. He would have garnered a lot of respect and good will had he done so.
What a load of bullshit. You won't respect Walker so long as he's in office, doing things that we want instead if what you want.
Inglett didn't even vote against Walker in the recall. I bet he will be highly motivated to vote next election. Along with a ton of his friends.
garage babbled:
Inglett didn't even vote against Walker in the recall.
So the idiot signed a petition, but didn't bother to vote? Or do you claim to know the content of his vote?
If the former: he's not a public spirited citizens, and shouldn't be on any gov't boards. If the latter, you're a liar for claiming to know what you can not in fact know.
I see you haven't said anything about leftists boycotting other people, like the union thugs who tried to bully businesses into putting up pro-recall / anti-Walker signs. So, clearly, none of this is a matter of principle, you're just whining because someone on your side got treated as he deserved.
So the idiot signed a petition,
Some idiot:
In addition to his engineering physics major, Inglett is pursuing a double minor in mathematics and business administration. He was a resident assistant for the Melcher Hall dormitory this year, and worked until January for Media Technology Services on campus as equipment coordinator, trouble-shooting technology issues in classrooms.
Inglett also is a member of the campus honor society, the CEO Club and the Pioneer Launch Lab for young entrepreneurs. He is the founder of two businesses: JP Travel LLC, which "provides inexpensive travel packages to large groups," and Inglett Enterprises, which produces OEM computers and develops and tests proprietary software, according to the résumé he submitted to the governor's office.
Inglett's father is the pastor of Bethlehem Lutheran Church-ELCA in Portage
Maybe that's Walker withdrew his nomination. He's much more educated and knows what it's like to create a job.
"Maybe that's Walker withdrew his nomination."
My guess is the reason his nomination was withdrawn is this: Signing the recall petition was an expression of a desire to overturn the 2010 legal democratic election of Governor Walker. To sign the recall petition was to identify oneself as someone who saw Governor Walker as an enemy and the democratic process as being subordinate to partisan, ideological goals.
The Walker people should have done a better job of vetting the kid earlier but better late than too late.
Now, back to Minnesota and Wisconsin. I say, vote with your feet. If you want the bigger government "progressive" approach, move to Minnesota - it's just across the river. And if you live in Minnesota now but would like lower taxes and a more limited state government, come on down to America's dairyland.
Interesting piece. New Englanders would think of NH and VT which have been political opposites for many years. Lately, though NH is becoming more liberal, but it has a long way to go before becoming like VT.
Over time, it is fair to say, NH has seen greater population growth than VT. That is said to be due to an influx of people fleeing Taxachusetts; but the former residents of Taxachusetts are also taking with them their habit of voting Democratic.
My own state of Maine is seeing a growing divide between the northern and eastern two thirds of its land area and the Portland area. The Portland area is thriving and growing thanks to new residents from MA. The rest of the state is dying as its resource based economy collapses. Southern ME is way more liberal than northern and eastern ME; but the only way the Democrats can win the governorship by taking it away from a wacko conservative in a promised three-way race is to nominate a conservative Democrat from northern Maine.
Signing the recall petition was an expression of a desire to overturn the 2010 legal democratic election of Governor Walker.
With another completely legal, and completely democratic process.
To sign the recall petition was to identify oneself as someone who saw Governor Walker as an enemy and the democratic process as being subordinate to partisan, ideological goals.
You can't be serious. Which democratic, non-ideological goal was Walker allied with when he took the phone call from the supposed Koch brother?
"Enemy" is not the right term. Walker skated by. A political victory - and maybe one that was unprecedented in its own way, but still a very narrow one. His job now is to prove not to be an extremist, and embrace his "opponents" (that's the term that democracies use, not "enemies"). In a contentiously held state, he can either go further to the Koch agenda, or prove some kind of moderate credentials. Overstating one's claim to a mandate is a huge mistake in politics, but if you want him to go there, I'm sure he will, Meade. And that's ok, just don't expect to be able to play it off the way you are now. It's not a huge, strategic victory, it's a narrow, tactical temporary one. Makes partisans feel good for today, without much thought as to where they want to take this all in the long-run.
To sign the recall petition was to identify oneself as someone who saw Governor Walker as an enemy and the democratic process as being subordinate to partisan, ideological goals.
The recall provision is part of our constitution, and the ultimate sign of a healthy democracy.
Of course now they in last place in the country they want to make it harder for people to vote and harder to recall them. Thanks a lot, asshats!
. If you want the bigger government "progressive" approach, move to Minnesota - it's just across the rive
Yea I'm not required to live here. And I have two young daughters, and now Operation Rescue is in charge of health care I'm thinking seriously about getting them the hell out of this state.
I'm on a well. Have a septic tank. Government has got nothing to do with my water and sewer. My well is grandfathered in- it's a dug well, only 15 feet. CO's for new construction require drilled wells. There is nothing inherently wrong with a properly sited dug well, but- the state is the state, and has to have regulations.
As far as electricity needed to provide safe water, all the Amish in my county would disagree with that conclusion. They have safe water without electrical use.
My water and sewr when I lived in SC were both privately supplied. Our subdivision was not close to any municipal supplies.
Do we want to discuss fire departments? In SC, our local fire department was all volinteer- meaning just that. No government funding whatsoever. Here in NY, we have a VFD, but it is a taxing district. Difference? In SC, if your house caught on fire, and you hadn't contributed, the volunteer firemen would enter the residence to save people if need be, but then stand by and watch the house burn down. The volunteer firemen here in NY can't conceive of doing that. Both methods work.
In the cities, the fire departments are taxpayer funded and paid- very well. Why? Why aren't all you city folk community minded enough to joing together to put out fires?
garage takes to the Internet to reveal actions have consequences and gets all butt hurt.
Hilarious.
Poor garage, can't tell the difference between intelligence, and a credential.
Poor garage, can't explain why left-wing boycotts are good, but right-wings aren't.
Withdrawing an appointment for egotistical reasons ain't the same as a boycott you moron.
Notice Jay isn't even defending this?
Wisconsin job creation (loss)
under Gov Jim Doyle (D, 8 yrs) -60,000
under Gov Scott Walker (R, 2 yrs) +60,000
Remember when garage was railing against Doyle's terrible record on job creation?
Yeah, me neither.
Also, from your link: "Minnesota started to outpace Wisconsin roughly a decade ago"
Damn that nefarious Walker, causing Wisconsin's economy to lag exactly when Doyle took over as Governor!
Jay said...
You also don't have the first clue how a modern water plant treats and pumps water.
**************
Do you?
Is the water supply from a lake, river, well, or resevoir? Or does that depend on time of year? (It does here.) What is the hardness of the water, as well as other mineral content? Does the water source produce high turbidity? Is the water transported a long distance by pipe or open aquaduct?
All these factor in as to how a modern water treatment plant operates and treats the potable water. No 2 are identical. Do you have any idea how your water is treated?
City water may be healthy, but it's yucky tasting. I don't drink it.
BTW, as far as productive jobs and government, any government or private job that includes the words "affirmative" or "diversity" in the title are non-productive jobs. And private industry has jobs with those words solely because of government. You'll note that when Michelle left her high paid hospital adminstrator job that had one of those words in the title- the job was subsequently eliminated, and the hospital continued running just fine.
A governor that ordered all those jobs be eliminated from state organizations could probably hold tax rates steady for a few years from the sudden redcution in state spending.
garage mahal said...
Yea I'm not required to live here. And I have two young daughters
And what a banner father's day you're having taking to the Internt to screech incoherently against your state's governor.
Calypso
Nice misleading stat. I bet you wouldnt run a company like that. Pathetic. 11th to 44th is your bogus argument.
Time for the coach to get fired!
Harold said...
I'm on a well. Have a septic tank. Government has got nothing to do with my water and sewer.
Just to be clear, I like living in the country, would prefer to live in the country and will move to the country when I retire.
Civilization requires cities. The country with the largest cities is usually the leader of that era's civilization. From Babylon, to Thebes, to Alexandria, to Rome, to Bagdad, to Beijing, to London, to New York, this has been generally true. People living in the provinces make contributions but rarely without having spent some time in one of the largest cities.
"Walker should have thrown his arms around the kid. He would have garnered a lot of respect and good will had he done so. Instead, a story that most people can immediately understand gets out there that Walker is a revengeful baby gets out there instead."
No, Democrats threw their creepy octopus arms around him. They chose to use him for their purposes. They have zero shame about appropriating young lives for whatever purpose they may have. Horrifying.
"Yea I'm not required to live here. And I have two young daughters, and now Operation Rescue is in charge of health care I'm thinking seriously about getting them the hell out of this state."
First, you would use your own young daughters to try to score a political point in an internet discussion? Tsk. And then you would move to Minnesota just to make it even easier for them to abort your potential unborn grandchildren?
Why not just keep moving west. I hear in California and Oregon there are no limits on how young they can be to get an abortion on demand without notifying you or their mother. Safe, legal, and rare - depending on how rare your definition of rare is.
At 11:02am someone claiming to be "reasonable" used this argument for the importance of government and (implicitly) higher taxes: "Without a clean water supply and efficient waste removal cities would collapse because of disease. Rich and poor would die off like flies." The poor ignoramus apparently doesn't know that that kind of thing not only could happen in Wisconsin, but it has in fact happened, in Wisconsin, barely 20 years ago.
In March and April 1993, "the largest waterborne disease outbreak in documented United States history" killed "at least 104" people in Milwaukee, and sickened 400,000 more (link). Cryptosporidium protozoa somehow got into the city water supply and the infected plant (one of two in the city) kept on pumping bad water to city faucets for 17 days before it was shut down. I think a private company would have figured it out a little faster than that. If anyone wants to make a political point, the governor at the time was Republican Tommy Thompson, but water is a local issue, and Milwaukee had had Democrats as mayors for 33 years, and a Socialist for 12 years before that.
"People living in the provinces make contributions but rarely without having spent some time in one of the largest cities."
True- but- people living in cities don't eat without people living in the provinces. The difference between yesterday and today is- the people living in provinces have full equal rights before the law, and have the same conveniences, except for that pesky fast internet access...
Which is the liberal elite based in cities want to increase gasoline taxes and enact carbon taxes and mileage taxes and other such nonsense. They want to turn all of us province dwelling folk back into serfs. meanwhile, they'll use taxes we pay to subsidize their subways and bus lines...
And, when you do move to the country, my advice is to move to somewhere within village limits with a moderate amount of land. You get more than an acre, and the land owns you, you don't own it. I live on 8 acres, 5 of which isn't swamp. (That's wetlands for the city folk.) Just keeping the weeds from taking over takes more time then I have, since I am not retired, and not a farmer.
First, you would use your own young daughters to try to score a political point in an internet discussion? Tsk.
Maybe their own health and well-being actually means something personally to him, Meade. Although it's possible that you wouldn't appreciate that. Tsk.
Minnesota is much more LIBERAL than Wisconsin. It's Yuppie country.
It also has a Republican Party that is infested with both Ultra-conservatives (Bachman & Co.) and RINOs. The Party can't govern and usually gets thrown out after 1 election cycle.
Compared to us, Wisconsin has a functioning Republican Party that can hold on to power. In Minnesota, "functioning" describes the Democrats. Thank God for the few who are conservative and mostly rural.
Fire fighters, cops, and public health workers may be necessary, but they're not productive.
Of course they are! For simpliciy's sake, envision a living cell. Are the only "wealth creators" the enzymes which build tissues from amino acids, food stuff energy and O2? Antibodies (firefighters) and a host of others pur]t out inflammations. Other elements cruise the circulatory system looking for bad agents to liquidate. Once and a while a housing bubble occurs (unchecked cancer proliferation) which has to be dealt with as well. A living economy is complex system.
That being said, this country has systematically off-shored many otherwise productive industries, replacing them with "service industries." This has been occurring...as far back as I can remember.
The problem with garage's unions (and I told him many times) is that they got greedy and needed to be confronted. It was a PR failure. There was absolutely no reason for them to receive ever-sweeter benefits in a faltering economy. The union leaders should have been out there saying to their members: "you know what? Everybody else is losing ground and it just might cause a backlash if we don't suck it up a little too." To carry the living organism meme another step, the unions should have realized that they had a powerful monopoly, extracted at high cost, but that which the State giveth could also be taken away.
They shat themselves on the foot.
To carry the living organism meme another step, the unions should have realized that they had a powerful monopoly, extracted at high cost, but that which the State giveth could also be taken away.
I meant, the unions were born, grow, get old and die too if they don't take care of themselves and police themselves.
The true enemies of smart growth and prosperity are the folks who want to roll back human development for deepseated misanthropic reasons, return large swathes of land to a pristine nature, ban "dirty" but vital industries like chipmaking or send them overseas, etc.
Compared to us, Wisconsin has a functioning Republican Party that can hold on to power. In Minnesota, "functioning" describes the Democrats. Thank God for the few who are conservative and mostly rural.
I think there's some truth to that, but less than there used to be.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens in 2014, because the rural, somewhat more conservative DFLers got run over big time in this cycle. The term that's gaining currency is "Metrocrats," which describes the strange group of people who control Hennepin and Ramsey counties. They have the reins right now and they rammed through a lot of taxes and regulations that are going to start biting in the next month or two. Most of the debate in the legislature this year was between the Metrocrats and the more conservative DFLers outstate, who are pretty nervous about what came out of this past session.
It's worth mentioning that 2013 is the first year in the 20 years I've lived here where the DFL controlled the entire government. We had a RINO governor from 1990-1998, then a bunch of Anoka County dudes with mullets managed to elect Jesse Ventura in 1998. After his one term, which essentially provided stasis, the Republicans were able to elect Tim Pawlenty, a moderate Republican who kept things under control for 8 more years. And while Dayton won in 2010, he faced a Republican legislature for two years, which slowed down a lot of the plans that Dayton and his pals have now rammed through.
The upshot is this -- Republicans, for all their dysfunction, were largely able to slow down the DFL from what it wanted to do until this year's legislative session. We are going to see the difference that pure DFL power makes in Minnesota now.
Dayton and the House are up for reelection in 2014 and they'll be the ones who will have to answer for things. The Senate is not up for reelection in the next cycle, and if the Republicans come back the Senate will effectively put a break on most anything the Republicans might try.
I'd also mention that there are other important differences between Minnesota and Wisconsin, but I think the most important one is that the Minneapolis/St. Paul metropolitan area wields a lot more power than the Milwaukee area does in Wisconsin. You only have a few decent sized cities in Minnesota outside of the Twin Cities, namely Duluth, Rochester, St. Cloud and Mankato. People all over the state of Minnesota watch Twin Cities television stations and read the Minneapolis and St. Paul newspapers.
That's not the case in Wisconsin, or course, because Wisconsin's population base is significantly more spread out. There are separate populations centers and political power bases in Madison, Green Bay, Appleton/Oshkosh, Eau Claire, Wausau, LaCrosse, Racine/Kenosha, Sheboygan, Manitowoc, Janesville, Beloit, etc. That makes a big difference.
My brother and his family live in Minnesota and I feel quite sorry for him. And for everyone else ruled by a bunch of idiot tyrants who have the nerve to dress their oppression in the language of good intentions.
It's for the children, ya know.
For anyone reading the comments about water and sewage being obvious government services, please note that in socialist France these are often provided by contract by private firms like Veolia Environnement.
Water/Sewage is a bit of a natural monopoly, but the state can easily outsource the actual management of services. And as the other commenter mentioned, often the system is built privately and then managed publicly.
I think the big government people really do not realize that things they "assume" must be done by government are not even done by government in places like France.
garage mahal said...
So the idiot signed a petition,
Some idiot:
In addition to his engineering physics major, Inglett is pursuing a double minor in mathematics and business administration. He was a resident assistant for the Melcher Hall dormitory this year, and worked until January for Media Technology Services on campus as equipment coordinator, trouble-shooting technology issues in classrooms.
Inglett also is a member of the campus honor society, the CEO Club and the Pioneer Launch Lab for young entrepreneurs. He is the founder of two businesses: JP Travel LLC, which "provides inexpensive travel packages to large groups," and Inglett Enterprises, which produces OEM computers and develops and tests proprietary software, according to the résumé he submitted to the governor's office.
Inglett's father is the pastor of Bethlehem Lutheran Church-ELCA in Portage
Maybe that's Walker withdrew his nomination. He's much more educated and knows what it's like to create a job.
Yeah. But he signed the petition.
Well. He doesn't actually know how to create a job because he hasn't created anything of worth , yet.
People can vote with their feet.
California has been losing buisinesses and people for years now, due to taxes and regulation and just plain, bird-brained, Progressive waste.
I think Minnesota will suffer that now.
Nothing misleading about it, gm; just the facts.
Also, many of the measures taken by the MN Dems recently don't have immediate impact. The service taxes implemented (transportation, storage, for instance) don't go into effect fully for a year. There will certainly be a migration of businesses to Wisconsin in affected industries if those laws stand.
No, Democrats threw their creepy octopus arms around him. They chose to use him for their purposes. They have zero shame about appropriating young lives for whatever purpose they may have. Horrifying.
You're so far up Walker's ass you can't tell the difference between right and wrong.
Democrats have zero shame about appropriating young lives for whatever purpose they may have.
To which garage mahal said: "You're so far up Walker's ass you can't tell the difference between right and wrong."
No shame at all, apparently.
For decades, the hubris of the Democrats and public employee unions in Wisconsin increased along with their tax-funded benefits. They had at least 8 years, under Doyle, to notice that the heavy bloated apples of their rotting fascistic scheme had begun to fall and hit them on their heads.
El Pollo Raylan, above, at 8:49 PM said it succinctly:
It was a PR failure. There was absolutely no reason for them to receive ever-sweeter benefits in a faltering economy. The union leaders should have been out there saying to their members: "you know what? Everybody else is losing ground and it just might cause a backlash if we don't suck it up a little too." To carry the living organism meme another step, the unions should have realized that they had a powerful monopoly, extracted at high cost, but that which the State giveth could also be taken away.
They shat themselves on the foot.
In addition - and even more important than the scaling back of benefits - was their loss of the automatically deducted union dues and fees by government and the automatic undemocratic annual union recertification. That was the one thing that held up their diseased scheme and allowed them to keep producing their plump over-ripe apples of benefits and privilege. Removing it was radical in the true sense of the word in that the branches of the tree would no longer be merely pruned back and the rotting apples picked up and disposed of. The entire diseased tree was completely rooted out.
The lengths a Walker supporter has to go to defend complete failure.
Sure would be easier if his policies you know, actually worked, wouldn't it?
Of course his plans did "work", for a small handful of corrupt crony friends and donors. The rest of the state got the shaft.
What lengths does gm have to go to defend government employees in Wisconsin? His method is simple, though deeply dishonest: all he has to do is pretend not to have heard that government employees in Wisconsin killed at least 104 people through gross incompetence barely 20 years ago. An honest man would address my 7:39pm comment, but gm is neither honest nor much of a man.
An honest man would address my 7:39pm comment, but gm is neither honest nor much of a man.
Almost always, I just scroll by your whiny drivel because almost always it's a complete waste of time.
It is indeed a waste of time to read arguments that refute your own if you are incapable of answering them and too dishonest to admit it.
garage mahal said...
Withdrawing an appointment for egotistical reasons ain't the same as a boycott you moron.
You know, garage, someone as intellectually challenged as you are should be careful about throwing around the word "moron."
It's not in the LEAST bit "egotistical" for Walker to refuse to appoint people who signed any recall petitions. They've established that they're on the other team. As such, only someone from the other team should be appointing them.
Boycotts are about punishing people for disagreeing with you. Which is what refusing to appoint people who supported the recall is about. They're exactly the same thing.
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