May 14, 2013
"For soldiers who risked their lives in circumstances where bullets are flying around like rain and wind, if you want them to get some rest, a comfort women system was necessary."
"That's clear to anyone," said Toru Hashimoto, the mayor of Osaka, Japan.
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74 comments:
Sure.
No other army took the women of its colonies and raped systematically them.
It is good to reflect occasionally on the alternatives to modern Western civilization.
Yeah. Like during law school exams.
That a$$hole gives the word "conservative" a bad name...
For software engineers who develop code in circumstances where bugs are flying around like rain and wind, if you want them to get some rest, a comfort women system was necessary.
I think that applies equally well, and is much more relevant in this day and age.
I assume such a wellness program will be covered by the Affordable Care Act.
And they still lost!
It is good to reflect occasionally on the alternatives to modern Western civilization.
Especially when we all know that every culture is morally equivalent, just different.
Sex is wonderful, but it is like fire, it is dangerous and must be used thoughtfully.
He is condoning arson.
Trey
Korea and China have been playing the victim card for advantage over Japan a lot recently.
I don't know who's supposed to be listening.
It appears to be aimed at the Japanese side of this or that negotiation.
This would be a Japanese pushback by somebody who's had enough of it.
He is right. The Japanese Emperor worship had to allow some spoils of world conquest to go down to the lowest classes it was using for Murder Sport. It was only fair.
And The Greater East Asian Empire of Japan took what ever it wanted... until it ran afoul of a stronger Samurai breed at Midway and on Guadalcanal.
I have read that the German Army also did this. They had so called 'field whores' assigned to certain units.
It would avoid harrazment charges.
At the risk of giving this suggestion any moral credence (which is not my intent), I would like to ask the good mayor the following question.
Would it not behoove the Japanese government, then, to conscript -Japanese- women to provide this service, as their dutiful service to the war effore?
If our gov't would assign women soldiers to this duty we would not have all the rape and harassment charges we have.
Kill two birds with one stone.
And the men in the armed forces would be supportive.
WIn Win.
Hate to say, but whores has a point for once.
Clock, stopped, you know the drill.
rhhardin said...
Korea and China have been playing the victim card for advantage over Japan a lot recently.
I don't know who's supposed to be listening.
The Nips have been denying any wrongdoing in WWII since MacArthur took their surrender on the quarter deck of the Missouri.
For once, the victim card is justified.
traditionalguy said...
He is right. The Japanese Emperor worship had to allow some spoils of world conquest to go down to the lowest classes it was using for Murder Sport. It was only fair.
And The Greater East Asian Empire of Japan took what ever it wanted... until it ran afoul of a stronger Samurai breed at Midway and on Guadalcanal.
Even on Bataan and Corregidor. Look how long they held out.
ken in sc said...
I have read that the German Army also did this. They had so called 'field whores' assigned to certain units.
Were these women of Occupied countries impressed into service or hired?
The French Army has a long tradition of brothels assigned to its colonial outposts, but the women were regular hookers.
The Comfort Women System of Nanking. I've read about that.
The Nips have been denying any wrongdoing in WWII since MacArthur took their surrender on the quarter deck of the Missouri.
For once, the victim card is justified.
On the contrary Japan has been all apology, and as for justification the whole Japanese population has changed, not to mention being pretty well mortified in the original population.
They're all weird peaceniks today.
The victim card is played to stir a grudge that doesn't exist in current populations.
Where have we seen that.
Pushback is certain but is not certain to make the right argument.
Well, the Red Army did a fine job in their chunk of Germany, as well.
"For soldiers who risked their lives in circumstances where bullets are flying around like rain and wind, if you want them to get some rest, a comfort women system was necessary."
Ok, if your belief system genuinely justifies that - and let me make clear that mine does NOT - then at best you're talking about an actual professional and voluntary service, not a coerced one. Say what you want about your soldiers needs in the field, what was actually done still amounted to slavery and is still not justifiable, regardless of what your soldiers need.
I give his statements four Ron Jeremys.
rhhardin said...
The Nips have been denying any wrongdoing in WWII since MacArthur took their surrender on the quarter deck of the Missouri.
For once, the victim card is justified.
On the contrary Japan has been all apology, and as for justification the whole Japanese population has changed, not to mention being pretty well mortified in the original population.
They took the hint after Hiroshima, but they still refuse to admit their barbarism in places like the Philippines.
And the US just applied the capitalist system to its conquered territories.Compulsion wasn't necessary when the dichotomy was whoring or starvation.
Those of you who know Japanese -- he's not saying that use of comfort women was a good thing. In his public comments, he clearly separated out the problem that women were forced into it against their will (意に反して), from his general comment that armies need camp followers. He follows up by noting that the US commander at Futenma (in Okinawa) even told him he wanted more prostitution in the area.
rhhardin said...
"On the contrary Japan has been all apology, and as for justification the whole Japanese population has changed, not to mention being pretty well mortified in the original population."
What utter nonsense. Read some history dolt. The Japanese have been denying their horrific atrocities such as The Rape of Nanking since they committed it. What a fantasy world you live in.
rhhardin said...
The Nips have been denying any wrongdoing in WWII since MacArthur took their surrender on the quarter deck of the Missouri.
They're all weird peaceniks today.
These things aren't exclusive. There are many "peaceniks" who blame us for WWII.
Although certainly not perfect, the near miraculous restraint of the American military in this regard through history is another example of American Exceptionalism. I'm not sure what's responsible for that record, but I know it wasn't relentless discipline or the fear of punishment, and that's what's most impressive.
It is good to reflect occasionally on the alternatives to modern Western civilization.
Exactly!
"Compulsion wasn't necessary when the dichotomy was whoring or starvation."
So, we're all slaves, and whores, and this was just a job like flipping burgers.
So the Code of Bushido had a lot to do with bush, especially the Catholic Nun and English Christian Missionary blonde bush that were seen as special compared to the darker Korean and Filipino bush.
Drill, you often hear that the people running Iran are described as conservatives.
There are many "peaceniks" who blame us for WWII.
Most of the criticism I have heard was 1) We waited until were were attacked before jumping headfirst into another world war and; 2) Nuking two Japanese cities that ended the war that we took our time entering.
However you parse it, it's an insensitive remark. He's a sane man in a responsible position in Japanese society. If that's his considered opinion, he should consider shutting up.....There are probably a lot of women in North Korea who would consider being a comfort woman a welcome opportunity for advancement. That's my considered opinion, but if I were a Japanese mayor, I would not advance it at a banquet speech.
Here's something else he said in the press conference:
意に反して慰安婦になってしまった方はね、心情を理解してやさしく配慮が必要。認めるところは認めて、違うところは違う。謝るべきところは謝って、言うべきところはいう
As far as people who were forced to become comfort women against their will, we need to be considerate of them gently, and understand their feelings. Admit what should be admitted, but say it's different where it's different. Apologise where we should apologise, and say what we should say.
The Imperial Japanese Army was a particularly brutal machine whose atrocities go largely unnoticed when the horrors of WW2 are discussed.
There was a book called Ghost Soldiers later made into a movie about the rescue of American POWs at Cabanatuan in the PI, that one critic lambasted for its 'racist' portrayal of the Japanese. Evidently the first hand accounts of the survivors from that camp offended that critic's tender racial sensibilities.
Colonel Angus said...
Most of the criticism I have heard was 1) We waited until were were attacked before jumping headfirst into another world war and; 2) Nuking two Japanese cities that ended the war that we took our time entering.
Add: 3) We effectively started the war by embargoeing Japan, and 4) racists!
What Largo said. If this supposedly necessary, "rest"-providing (!) service was so voluntary, why weren't Japanese women providing it, as their contribution to the war effort? Why were Chinese and Korean women apparently eager to "service" Japanese soldiers, when Japanese women apparently weren't.
Some questions do answer themselves.
"... what was actually done still amounted to slavery and is still not justifiable, regardless of what your soldiers need."
Would this apply to all conscription or only to the females?
Colonel Angus said...
The Imperial Japanese Army was a particularly brutal machine whose atrocities go largely unnoticed when the horrors of WW2 are discussed.
There was a book called Ghost Soldiers later made into a movie about the rescue of American POWs at Cabanatuan in the PI, that one critic lambasted for its 'racist' portrayal of the Japanese. Evidently the first hand accounts of the survivors from that camp offended that critic's tender racial sensibilities
Go back a generation (or two, depending on how you measure a generation) and you'll find hundreds of them.
The Howard Zinn/Berrigans Hate-America crowd used the internment of the AJAs and Hiroshima to make us the bad guys in the Pacific and the media lapped it up, but go back to 1965 and before and you'll find plenty of documentation in all manner of media.
All that said, it's not really accurate to describe Ishin no Kai -- Hashimoto's party -- as "conservative." Within the context of Japan, they're not conservative at all, but radically libertarian, supporting shrinking the government, reforming the administrative system, school choice and vouchers, a free market, flat tax, etc.
In the US system, they'd be considered conservative, though.
That said, Ishihara Shintarou, the longtime fascist governor of Tokyo (now ex-governor), is involved in the party, so it definitely has some illiberal aspects.
Re: Michelle Dulak Thompson:
What Largo said. If this supposedly necessary, "rest"-providing (!) service was so voluntary, why weren't Japanese women providing it, as their contribution to the war effort? Why were Chinese and Korean women apparently eager to "service" Japanese soldiers, when Japanese women apparently weren't.
They do indeed, and Hashimoto knows it. That's why he separated the need for camp followers from the problem of women being forced to do it against their will.
Sorry, that was a response to "some questions answer themselves."
Hold on people. I remembered something.
General Hooker was a big fan as well.
Obama's message to the rest of the world boils down to "You're on your own. The US is just one nation among many and guarantees no one's safety."
I wonder to what extent the emergence of a hard nationalist voice as the mayor of a major Japanese city is not a symptom of Japan girding its loins, as America retreats from the world stage, to resume its role as an active military power in its region.
The current situation with Japan, China and North Korea is much more serious than one would realize from reading American media.
It wasn't only Chinese and Korean women who were forced to be "comfort women". It was also Dutch women who were prisoners of war of the Japanese in Indonesia. Read "Fifty Years of Silence" by Jan Ruff O'Herne.
The French Army has a long tradition of brothels assigned to its colonial outposts...
Bordel militaire de campagne
There were even Vietnamese and Algerian working girls airlifted into Dien Bien Phu. When the Viet Minh encircled the French forces the girls served as combat nurses, and when the French surrendered the girls were marched to their own re-education centers.
In a related note, the French strongpoints at Dien Bien Phu were allegedly named after the commanding colonel's mistresses.
The world focuses so much on America's prejudices that it ignores the animosity Asians have for each other. They are not one big happy family at all.
Re: creeley23:
I wonder to what extent the emergence of a hard nationalist voice as the mayor of a major Japanese city is not a symptom of Japan girding its loins, as America retreats from the world stage, to resume its role as an active military power in its region.
Only a limited extent, I think. Part of it is just that the current generation of young Japanese have not grown up with the fallout of the war. They've grown up in a time when -- even in the depths of a recession -- Japanese have been better off than most of the rest of the industrialised world. And part of it is the leadership. The current leadership of Japan is basically the grandchildren of the actual men who led Japan during the war. Prime Minister Abe Shinzo's grandfather, Kishi Nobusuke, was Minister of Commerce and Industry under the Tojo Cabinet from 1941 until 1943, and was held by the occupation authorities as a Class A war crimes suspect after the war. And he's not alone.
OK, let's go with the guy's reasoning. Comfort women weren't a big deal. Let's just go with that for a minute.
I'll agree. Maybe the 250,000 dead at Nanking are a big deal, then? How about all the other millions of dead Chinese? The thousands of prisoners who were intentionally infected with the plague as part of a biological warfare program? All the POWs who were murdered or starved to death? How about all the civilians who starved because of the war Japan began?
Let's talk about all that instead.
I get really tired of former Axis power apologetics. World War II was the worst war, ever, and the perpetrators were evil. It wasn't just another war. The Axis and the Allies were not equivalent.
When the Allies took a territory, the killing stopped. With the Axis it was just beginning.
AllenS cites an interesting feature of war and post-war situations in areas where the victorious Army doesn't/didn't just wholesale rape the defeated population....and exception cited by Bagoh20 and illuminated as capitalistic by Jeff Teal.
Dig deeper in to some American military camp followers and you will find that many of the girls were kept by a form of pimp service or Mama-san, who made loans to the girls then kept the girls working to pay off the loans. Not exactly free enterprise per se.
Notable is how the Russians were perceived in Vietnam, by the "working girls" and shop owners, after we pulled out...they were seen a cheapskates. The colloquialism for "Russian" in Vietnam was "Mi-No-Pee" [informal phonetic translation for clarity] ...e.g., white like Americans but without money (piasters) or "dong".
All that said, camp following has a long history, not all bad, from what I read in my great grand mother's diary of her time traveling a few miles behind the New York Cavalry unit her husband was part of, to keep up with her husband, a Lieutenant at the time. She mentions unmarried girls in the camps that performed similar services.
Balfegor: So you are saying that Japan is beginning to resume its role as an active military power irrespective of America foreign policy? And that's because:
(1) The memories of the WWII and its repercussions no longer deter the current generation of Japanese.
(2) Current Japanese leaders are the grandchildren of the Japanese leaders of WWII.
Interesting. I'd love to hear your take on the current jousting between Japan and China.
Re: creeley23:
Interesting. I'd love to hear your take on the current jousting between Japan and China.
Terrible? I'm not sure how much more I can say.
The average Japanese generally seems pretty laid back about everything, honestly. You see people in China and (to my embarassment) South Korea pitching hysterical screaming fits about stupid stuff, and it barely makes the papers in Japan. Last year, for example, when there was a lot of talk about the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands dispute, it wasn't anywhere near one of the top concerns domestically in Japan, compared to, say, the increase in the VAT. It's sort of the flip side of TPP. TPP is a big deal in Japan, but the average American has probably never heard of it. You had a few Japanese protesting China when tensions over the Senkaku islands were high, but they were so quiet and inoffensive that the foreign press had to resort to accusing the Japanese of being racist by implicitly saying: "Look, unlike those unruly Chinese we can have a civil, orderly protest."
If there's an outbreak of violence in East Asia, I'd be very surprised if the Japanese initiated it. It would not be terribly surprising to me to see the Chinese or even the Koreans do so.
Oh, there's a lot of Japanese who hate Koreans, though. Part of that is because the Koreans in Japan have historically had close ties to North Korea (some of the Korean schools even ran a ferry to North Korea for field trips!), and so there's suspicion because of the various kidnapping incidents, narcotics, and miscellaneous criminal activity. But there's a tiny, but vocal minority who just hate Koreans in general. Almost as much as Koreans hate Japanese.
Those protests are simultaneously a little scary, but also a little comic (on account of their music choices which range between Wagnerian and Oom-pah band). The Japanese fascists are honest-to-god old-timey fascists with black cars and rising sun flags and Yakuza thugs and all that.
creeley23,
Balfegor: So you are saying that Japan is beginning to resume its role as an active military power irrespective of America foreign policy?
Balfegor can write for himself and I hope he does, but I understood him as believing that Japan is beginning to resume an active military role BECAUSE of American foreign [non-]policy.
From WW2 Sex Slaves to Girlfriend pillows they can marry. Yeah, Japan has progressed in spades.
When the Allies took a territory, the killing stopped. With the Axis it was just beginning.
20,000 Poles in mass graves in the Katyn Forest could not be reached for comment.
Balfegor said...
Terrible? I'm not sure how much more I can say.
The average Japanese generally seems pretty laid back about everything, honestly. You see people in China and (to my embarassment) South Korea pitching hysterical screaming fits about stupid stuff, and it barely makes the papers in Japan. Last year, for example, when there was a lot of talk about the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands dispute, it wasn't anywhere near one of the top concerns domestically in Japan, compared to, say, the increase in the VAT. It's sort of the flip side of TPP. TPP is a big deal in Japan, but the average American has probably never heard of it. You had a few Japanese protesting China when tensions over the Senkaku islands were high, but they were so quiet and inoffensive that the foreign press had to resort to accusing the Japanese of being racist by implicitly saying: "Look, unlike those unruly Chinese we can have a civil, orderly protest."
If there's an outbreak of violence in East Asia, I'd be very surprised if the Japanese initiated it. It would not be terribly surprising to me to see the Chinese or even the Koreans do so.
Honestly, I'm a little dismayed at the Japanese attitude towards Chinese aggression. The fact that China is really trying to make a statement that they are in control of those waterways should have the Japanese screaming bloody murder. However, with respect to TPP, it's like watching someone screw with your money in front of you and that makes them stand up. Albeit, they would be coming at it from a position of weakness, unless someone is directly attacking them, they aren't really taking China seriously in this regard.
Re: mariner:
Balfegor can write for himself and I hope he does, but I understood him as believing that Japan is beginning to resume an active military role BECAUSE of American foreign [non-]policy.
I think Japan would probably be heading down this course (essentially, normalisation) regardless. American foreign policy -- or "non-policy" if you prefer -- might be helping that development on its way, but I think it's impelled by domestic forces other than the United States of America.
Re: John Lynch:
OK, let's go with the guy's reasoning. Comfort women weren't a big deal. Let's just go with that for a minute.
That wasn't what he said. I know that's what you read in the English-language press, but they're just excerpting a portion of what he said.
There are Japanese politicians who would say comfort women weren't a big deal, that the women who served as comfort women chose to do it voluntarily, etc. etc. As far as I can tell, Hashimoto is not one of them.
The German Army field whores I read about were held as slaves and were tattooed as such. I don't remember where they came from.
"Balfegor said...
Those of you who know Japanese -- he's not saying that use of comfort women was a good thing. In his public comments, he clearly separated out the problem that women were forced into it against their will (意に反して), from his general comment that armies need camp followers. He follows up by noting that the US commander at Futenma (in Okinawa) even told him he wanted more prostitution in the area."
Now THIS is vital and necessary context. I wonder why the hell the US press has been lousy at reporting that. It's almost as if our media wants everyone to think he was excusing the coercive sex slavery.
Had I known this, I wouldn't have said what I said up above. I'd understand that he's making the same distinction I did.
Our press fails. Too damn often. If the context is there, freakin' REPORT it. They're lousy at that.
"Balfegor said...
Those of you who know Japanese -- he's not saying that use of comfort women was a good thing. In his public comments, he clearly separated out the problem that women were forced into it against their will (意に反して), from his general comment that armies need camp followers. He follows up by noting that the US commander at Futenma (in Okinawa) even told him he wanted more prostitution in the area."
Now THIS is vital and necessary context. I wonder why the hell the US press has been lousy at reporting that. It's almost as if our media wants everyone to think he was excusing the coercive sex slavery.
Had I known this, I wouldn't have said what I said up above. I'd understand that he's making the same distinction I did.
Our press fails. Too damn often. If the context is there, freakin' REPORT it. They're lousy at that.
Balfegor: Thanks. I don't see Japan initiating anything either, but China and North Korea are another matter.
I have an engineer friend who goes to Shanghai sometimes to work with her company's Chinese team. She was there a few weeks ago and said that TV screens were constantly filled with updates about North Korea.
Now THIS is vital and necessary context.
Amen to that. Balfegor provides a welcome, knowledgeable perspective and is one of the commenters I read closely.
Oso Negro said...
It is good to reflect occasionally on the alternatives to modern Western civilization.
AMEN!
Mark O said...
Yeah. Like during law school exams.
AMEN!
That said, there is something disturbing about feminists and sparkle cows and media going ballastic about "Rape!!!" as the one unacceptable, greatest "atrocity" of war.
Worse than Japs spreading plague and doing vivisections on Chinese.
Worse than Brits in WWI starving 100s of thousands of German women and children to death, via blockade, even after Armistice, until Germany knuckled to all Brit and French demands.
Worse that just eradicating millions of women (with attendent kids, men, and elderly death)
Its cognitive dissonance, just like with Lefties painting themselves in a corner where they support killing and maining enemy over capturing them and housing and interrogating them in anyway that "violates precious enemy rights".
bagoh20 said...
Although certainly not perfect, the near miraculous restraint of the American military in this regard through history is another example of American Exceptionalism. I'm not sure what's responsible for that record, but I know it wasn't relentless discipline or the fear of punishment, and that's what's most impressive.
=======================
Basically, the "exceptionalism" was due to the difficulty of getting out of a flying bomber, raping the Jap and German women, somehow getting back on the flying bomber, then dropping Napalm and HE on the women.
We just went right into the napalming and blowing up enemy noncombatant biz.
But in the "good old days" like the Civil War and the Philippines Insurrection - rape and pillage were SOP. As were camp followers and "comfort women". (many enemy war widows with nothing left)
In later wars "rape and pillage" was checked by pressure to keep female voters and religious sorts back home mollified. But even in modern times until PC took root, the US military believed access to clean whores was a vital part of military R&R.
I have to revise my comments above -- news reports are differing slightly on exactly what Hashimoto said, and it makes a difference in terms of whether and how bad it was. This report contains a passage that I hadn't seen previously saying that in 2007 the cabinet (Abe's first cabinet) determined there was no proof that the Japanese abducted women to serve as comfort women. So they have to say that clearly:
証拠が出てくれば認めなきゃいけないが、今のところ２００７年の（第１次安倍内閣の）閣議決定ではそういう証拠がないとなっている。そこはしっかり言っていかなきゃいけない。
That puts him a lot further over into the apologist zone. He's not at the extreme end still (denying any coercion as many Japanese politicians still do), but it looks like he's in the group trying to maintain deniability that there was any official involvement (not quite that there was no official involvement but that there is no proof of such), and otherwise minimizing the degree. That's similar to the position the Prime Minister has taken in the past.
So criticise away.
Sorry, with Hashimoto saying that etc etc.
Whereas in out civil war, it was private enterprise.
This thread is dead, but Jason brought up the point I expected.
The Soviets were not nice people. Nope, not one bit. Doesn't change the point that the Allies were still right to destroy the Axis and that the Axis were even worse. The Soviets wanted to rule Europe. The Nazis wanted to exterminate entire peoples. The Soviets, even in victory, never built anything like the death camps. They certainly killed a lot of people, even more than the Nazis over a longer period of time, but they weren't exterminationist in the same way the Nazis were. There are still Poles and Roma living in former Communist countries, something that wouldn't have happened if the Nazis had won.
And who else was going to help beat the Germans? The Dutch? They lasted four whole days.
As alliances of convenience go, the alliance with the Soviets was really convenient.
Post war the Soviets were containable in a way that the Germans could not have been. The USSR wasn't as powerful as Germany, and NATO included many nations that wouldn't have existed had the Germans still been a threat. So it was a good bet to ally with the Russians.
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