In the first report, despite the cries on the 911 call being deemed 'minimum-to-marginal material for identification purposes'... The report seems worthless. But even if one accepts it, since [Trayvon] Martin is excluded as the person screaming in three of the last four screams the logical conclusion is he wasn't the one crying out for help. The inference I take from this is that Martin may have yelled as he started hitting Zimmerman (the first two cries) but Zimmerman was the one crying out in the rest of the screams, which fits with him being punched in the nose and having his head slammed into the ground.
The second report is so absurd I'm wondering if it wasn't a joke. Parts of it are laugh-out-loud funny.
[A]pproximately one second after the start of CALL3, Mr. Zimmerman makes a seemingly religious proclamation, "These shall be." His speech is characterized by the low pitch and exaggerated pitch contour reminiscent of an evangelical preacher or carnival barker....... The first state report is equivocal and a guesstimate. The second is a joke. The court should exclude these expert reports.
May 14, 2013
"'Expert' Reports in George Zimmerman Case Disclosed."
And TalkLeft is skeptical:
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Shorter Leftist: If it doesn't fit the narrative throw it out and stop talking about it.
Disregard anyone who says or writes "guesstimate ".
Present it all to a jury who will judge the credibility of the experts' opinions under cross examination. It works.
I take it TalkLeft was OK with the original lynch mob.
No way, Zimmerman (white Hispanic) must be sacrificed for having killed Choom Daddy's surrogate son! The reports get admitted.
Guys, I pretty sure this is the same blogger who has been skeptical of the Zimmerman prosecution case since the start. S/he is making the case that the state's argument and expert testimony is WEAK.
You're correct, Icepick, but a cloudy misreading of what she wrote makes it appear she's got other ideas and therefore is different so ATTACK!
It still doesn't excuse the use of "guesstimate".
But if you play it backwards, real slow, and concentrate real hard, it sorta sounds like... Paul is dead...
I heard "I bury Paul" and "a serviceable villain."
Dammit, Emil.
And the prosecution is apparently working hard to exclude information that paints St. Trayvon as a garden variety hoodlum.
I'm curious how the state is going to convince a jury that Zimmerman attacked Martin's fist with his nose. And Martin’s elbows with his eyes. Because I've watched most of Bruce Lee's movies and never once did he employ anything even remotely similar to such moves. Although one or two of his opponents did (lead with their noses, and eyes).
My suggestion is that the state pay off Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and be done with it. Instead of proceeding with this farce simply to placate the natives.
The black community wants some strange fruit.
This is a question within the province of the jury, not a bunch of hacks that have been given the label of "expert."
It still doesn't excuse the use of "guesstimate".
Well ....
Although a lib, Jeralyn Merritt has always been a straight shooter when it comes to criminal matters, not allowing her politics to color her analysis.
Although a lib, Jeralyn Merritt has always been a straight shooter when it comes to criminal matters, not allowing her politics to color her analysis.
True, but ATTACK!!1
I do agree with Ms Merritt--she has, I believe, been skeptical of the entire case.
I have no idea what the writer meant to portray there.
I take it TalkLeft was OK with the original lynch mob.
No, TalkLeft, or at least J. Merritt was not at all in the Zimmerman is guilty. I guess she's more of a defense attorney than a leftist. She had some pretty sharp blog posts about this case, almost as good as Tom Maguire.
Present it all to a jury who will judge the credibility of the experts' opinions under cross examination. It works.
Present the tapes of the calls, yes, but the "experts" themselves admit they can't tell us anything with much certainty. The judge shouldn't admit them, they add nothing.
I hope some people don't riot when George Zimmermann is acquitted.
Fucking State of Florida.
Palladian said...
Disregard anyone who says or writes "guesstimate ".
5/14/13, 8:34 PM
Yes, a thousand times, yes.
"These shall be" is likely a mis-hearing of "Please help me."
There is A REASON that a best-seller about life in Florida is entitled: "Sick Puppy."
The commenters on that site were smart and knowledgeable......It seems like the kind of case where prejudices will have more sway over the jury than evidence or points of law.
bagoh2o,
"I have no idea what the writer meant to portray there"
Well then, the writer succeeded totally--for what can be better than to have your reader at one mind with you?
Mumpsimus said...
"These shall be" is likely a mis-hearing of "Please help me."
5/14/13, 11:21 PM
-----------
Exactly. Seems kind of obvious, does't it?
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Maybee and Mumpsimus Z's attorneys will probably make that point at trial.
This "expert" would make a good skit, just as the bixsuality experts would.
Expert: Zimmerman also exclaimed,"The passion Christ lead from is complete!"
Prosecutor: are you sure? We thought he said, "you're bashing my head on the concrete"
Expert: no. I'm certain. Build your case on it.
I sort of like the word "guesstimate." It sort of means "educated guess based on somewhat informed intuition and personal experience." Sort of, I guess.
Actually, I think Zimmerman said, as he brain was banging around in his head, "I personally believe, that U.S. Americans, are unable to do so, because uh, some, people out there, in our nation don’t have maps,and uh… I believe that our education like such as in South Africa, and the Iraq,
everywhere like such as… and, I believe they should uh, our education over here, in the U.S. should help the U.S. or should help South Africa, and should help the Iraq and Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future, for us.”
That's my expert guesstimate, anyway.
The problem, as I see this, is junk science. Prior to the 1990s, the big thing that controlled what expert testimony that got admitted was relevancy - did it help the fact finder (i.e. jury) make its decision. Then, starting with Daubert at the federal level, judges were to be used as gatekeepers to keep junk experts in check. Someone applying stuff from peer reviewed papers, and having a bunch of them themselves was fine, but the police crimologists and accidentologists were not. John Edwards would not have been able to channel babies, or, indeed, probably make most of his money, under the new federal standards.
Daubert, et al. is a federal standard though, and only some states have adopted it or something similar. Don't know where Florida sits there. Still, I suspect that the sort of testimony being suggested here won't be heard by any jury. The jury can do as good of job as the "experts" can, and this sort of expert testimony doesn't lend itself to verification, etc., esp. since Martin is not around to generate proper samples. Thus, you have a hired expert to tell the jury whom he thinks is talking and what they are saying, and doing so without a full sample set.
Also, while the failure of using this sort of expert testimony apparently turns up in ineffective assistance of counsel cases, this is just the opposite situation, being used by the prosecution to prove guilt in a capital case, or at least to disprove a self-defense defense (beyond a reasonable doubt), and if admitted would be just one more grounds for reversal by Zimmerman. If the jury heard this and convicted, would it have unfairly prejudiced the jury through unverifiable expert testimony? I don't think that most judges in this sort of high profile murder case would want that sort of reversal hanging over their heads. Much easier to just exclude it, and point at gatekeeping, junk science, and Daubert, et al. as justification for the exclusion.
"these shall be" = "please help me" is obvious once I read it (Mumpsius), but not before. Thanks for the insight.
I have been peripherically involved in two construction court suits where "experts" were called to testify.
I have ever since regarded being referred to as an "expert" to be an insult and defamatory to my professional reputation.
Emil Blatz said...
But if you play it backwards, real slow, and concentrate real hard, it sorta sounds like... Paul is dead...
Thread Winner!
PS. Wait... I thought that one audio expert who was THE EXPERT OF ALL THINGS AUDIO AND HAD A BUNCH OF INITIALS SAYING SO AND WENT TO SOME FANCY SCHOOL TO BE ACCREDITED AS AN AUDIO EXPERT had already said it could not have been Zimmerman screaming, that it waas definitely Martin, and his new state-of-the-art audio analysis software, that he happened to be selling to the public at the time, made this a 98% certainty??????
This Guy.
Why did anyone take him serious? He didn't have a good voice sample of either of the two people involved.
From: http://m.guardiannews.com/world/2013/may/14/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-audio-experts-disagree . . .
~Zimmerman's defense attorney, Mark O'Mara, has asked a judge to determine whether the audio analysis can be used at trial. O'Mara said in a filing that he was concerned the analysis of the 911 calls would prejudice jurors.~
This is not about evidence. It's about opinion. 911 tapes are evidence. Testimony about 911 tape audio analysis is opinion. Almost as bad as hearsay.
I guess the second expert googled "These shall be" with quotes and got a bunch of bible verses.
Jeralyn is very leftist on non-legal issues, but she approaches court cases with detailed analysis of the facts. She has said from day one that GZ is innocent and nothing presented by the prosecutor or the Martin family lawyer has shaken her conviction.
When I want to know the real goings on in the Florida case, I dial up Talk Left.
gadfly is right-on about TalkLeft and Jeralyn. Her analysis has been deep and scrupulously fair.
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