"... but because he’s been thoughtful and open-minded in how he’s approached the issue, and because he’s shown that he’s willing to take a political risk in order to take a principled stand. He was a good man before he changed his position, and he’s a good man now, just as there are good people on either side of this issue today. We’re all the products of our backgrounds and environments, and the issue of marriage for same-sex couples is a complicated nexus of love, identity, politics, ideology and religious beliefs. We should think twice before using terms like 'bigoted' to describe the position of those opposed to same-sex marriage or 'immoral' to describe the position of those in favor, and always strive to cultivate humility in ourselves as we listen to others’ perspectives and share our own."
Dad = Rob Portman.
ADDED: Clicking "edit" on this post, I said: "Do I have a 'humility' tag?" Then, laughing: "No, I only have a 'humiliation' tag." I love adding tags that I've already made, but I resist making new tags. Having "humiliation" but not "humility" strikes me as funny, but on further thought, I do have a tag for humility, which is "modesty." You don't want a lot of synonyms in the tags. "Modesty" is close enough — even if it sweeps together things as diverse as World Hijab Day and the judicial philosophy of Oliver Wendell Holmes.
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103 comments:
That's what America needs! More wishy-washy rhetoric!
a complicated nexus of love, identity, politics, ideology and religious beliefs.
How sweet, *whispers* you left out cock sucking and butt fucking.
I could live with someone calling me bigoted against immorality.
With a whisper in the ear of: "but we will destroy you if you resist us. We will ruin your business, your reputation, your job, and whatever it takes to get you to submit, but have a nice day."
" I remember going to a dance in the Trumbull dining hall with a girl in my class and feeling guilty about pretending to be somebody I wasn’t."
I wonder if Will, now that he's out, ever did the gentlemanly thing by later apologizing to the girl. Otherwise, she may be forever confused about her own sexuality.
Who isn't proud of their dad?
This is an argument for... what?
Opponents, or those who merely disagree, must be demonized, discredited, and called bad names. Because.
Hmmm, why do I get the feeling those poll numbers aren't what they're cracked up to be?
With a whisper in the ear of: "but we will destroy you if you resist us. We will ruin your business, your reputation, your job, and whatever it takes to get you to submit, but have a nice day."
Althouse seems to keep thinking that the fascist tactics of the gay activists don't reveal the essential truth about them.
I wonder why.
The majority of modern resistance to gay marriage, including my own, is the intolerance of the proponents. I don't want such methods, and the people who use them, to prevail. They want submission, vengeance, and punishment. Otherwise they would take the equality already offered, and enjoy it. The want payback for all the shame they ever felt, all the taunting, all the not fitting in. I understand that emotion, but it does not make it alright to act on it.
So Chip Ahoy doesn't like them because they're icky?
Humility is the same as modesty?
I don' thin' so, Senora.
PS The She Devil of the SS once again proves she doesn't know sarcasm when she hears it.
Portman's story is a familiar one these days. It confirms many of my friends' recent experiences. Thoughtful people can change when love requires them to go through the pain of changing their minds.
So Chip Ahoy doesn't like them because they're icky?
Inga, I'm going to try to reason with you, although I know that it is impossible.
First, Chip didn't say he didn't like gays. He just noted the reality of what they do, which is something the straight ladies who want to cozy up to gay men seem to breeze right over. This is a burr in the butt for hetero men who know what kind of hell they would catch if they behaved like gay men. We regard women, like you, as prickly and devious.
Second, I once had very liberal views of gay men. The AIDS epidemic changed all that. I thought the behavior was harmless and individual. The AIDS epidemic made two things clear to me. One is that the "stereotype" has a lot of truth to it. Two is that the ancient proscriptions against male to male anal sex make a lot of sense.
Got it?
Althouse seems to keep thinking that the fascist tactics of the gay activists don't reveal the essential truth about them.
Homofascism!
Ohhhhh, yes now I get it, Chip Ahoy likes them just fine, but he thinks what they do is icky, so.....
It's refreshing to read a pro-gay marriage advocate show respect for the opposing side. I have supported gay marriage for years, and it irritates the hell out of me when I hear pro-gay marriage people spew such hateful venom at those who prefer the status quo. A reluctance to fundamentally alter an important institution which has served society well for thousands of years is not necessarily evidence of bigotry.
Ohhhhh, yes now I get it, Chip Ahoy likes them just fine, but he thinks what they do is icky, so.....
You're being so basically and deliberately dishonest here, Inga.
No, I imagine that Chip observed gay men dying by the tens of thousands as a result of their own behavior. As did I.
This is a little more than "icky," isn't it?
Why are you behaving so foolishly here?
I'm not opposed to gay marriage. It seems a sane and moral way to act out one's sexuality. I do, however, oppose gay people butt fucking. That's kind of disgusting and can't possibly be healthy. The marriage vow should contain a promise to refrain from butt fucking. That's the common ground we've all been seeking. Gay marriage and not butt fucking.
and the issue of marriage for same-sex couples is a complicated nexus of love, identity, politics, ideology and religious beliefs
That is so stupid it is funny.
The idea of gay marriage is silly and watching all these people pretend it is some sort of pressing civil rights issue is comical, and a bit embarrassing.
Because I'm just a foolish female ST, we need men to guide our thoughts, or we go astray.
You do, certainly.
ST, I think Inga is just subtly saying that she's down for all that, and I repsect that in a woman.
"The marriage vow should contain a promise to refrain from butt fucking."
Yes, that it!
"... to love and honor, and refrain from butt fucking."
I might actually attend a wedding to see if that can be delivered with a straight face.
Because I'm just a foolish female ST, we need men to guide our thoughts, or we go astray.
In this case, I've got to agree.
Why are you just passing over the bitterly destructive behavior of gay men in your lifetime? Gay men set off a global epidemic that killed millions of people with their behavior.
They did not die as a result of persecution or people's unkind thoughts about them. They died as a result of their own behavior.
I know because I buried more than a few friends as a result.
bagoh20 said...
ST, I think Inga is just subtly saying that she's down for all that, and I repsect that in a woman.
bag, the She Devil is down for anything with anybody.
That's why we repsect her so much.
Chip Ahoy said...
How sweet, *whispers* you left out cock sucking and butt fucking.
Chip could animate that. Althouse should front page it.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda
What can thousands of years of Western Civilization teach us about morality? Puhleeze! What can a wet behind the ears barely out of adolescence Princeton undergrad teach us about morality? EVERYTHING!!
Andrew Ferguson has a good article in The Weekly Standard concerning gay marriage. Quote and link below.
"Well, the amici say, marriage is unique. And they’re right again. Marriage is many things, all at once—much more than a simple mechanism for stability between husband and wife. The institution that social science has been studying so exhaustively for so many years is of a singular kind, with singular features. It is an ancient practice grooved by tradition and myth, shaped by social expectations as old as civilization. It arises from the natural sexual complementarity of woman and man, and formalizes the possibility of procreation and the renewal of life."
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/science-same-sex-marriage_708842.html?page=1
I once had very liberal views of [free trade and merchant ships]. The [Black Death] changed all that. I thought the behavior of [the Mongols on the Silk Road] was harmless and individual. The [Black Death] made two things clear to me. One is that the "stereotype" [about hordes of Mongols] has a lot of truth to it. Two is that the ancient proscriptions against [free trade] make a lot of sense.
Got it?
Edbitcher,
Still yapping, demented poodle style?
The Black Death did not occur because of deliberately chosen behavior, Meade.
So, no, you're wrong. Completely.
Meade, I've noticed that you are remarkably conventional in your views of hetero behavior and morality.
Why the complete back flip in regard to homo behavior?
The AIDS epidemic occurred because gay men engaged in outrageous, repetitive orgies at bath houses in SF and NYC.
Are you suggesting this is the same as an opportunistic infection?
Deliberately chosen informed behavior. Once gay men became educated to the causes of the disease, their behavior changed. The demographic groups for whom HIV is currently most rapidly spreading are not gay males.
Deliberately chosen informed behavior. Once gay men became educated to the causes of the disease, their behavior changed. The demographic groups for whom HIV is currently most rapidly spreading are not gay males.
No and no.
AIDS is still almost entirely a gay male disease. And, no the behavior hasn't changed.
The "rapidly spreading" is just another way of saying that it's mostly a gay male disease. The numbers are so small among heteros that any increase is dramatic.
The propaganda is reaching you, Meade. Keep in mind that I lived in the West Village and SF for decades. Yes, I know you and Althouse want to domesticate gay male sexuality. You're going to fail.
I do, however, oppose gay people butt fucking.
Thank goodness that straight people can keep right on doing it.
You're so generous.
Ohhhhh, yes now I get it, Chip Ahoy likes them just fine, but he thinks what they do is icky,
Well, yes. I'm indifferent toward homosexuals but I agree that butt fucking is icky.
YMMV.
Meade, don't go against the wisdom of ST, after all he is King of the Icky and resident expert of sexually deviant behavior. ;)
It is incumbent upon sexual deviants to be aware of where to draw the limits in terms of sexual conduct, Inga.
The sensible sexual deviant wants to have a good time and enjoy the pleasures of this world...
Without killing himself or his partners.
Bagoh @11:13. Exactly.
"Vengeance is mine," said the oppressed victim.
I'm not sure why expressing distaste for certain kinds of sexual activity is tantamount to bigotry. I once dated a girl who thought oral sex was absolutely abhorrent and was as adament about receiving as giving it. Her loss but I didn't think she was bigoted because she wouldn't give blow jobs.
Different strokes for different folks. Just for the record, I think hetero butt fucking is icky too.
Heterosexuals trapped in same-sex marriage.
I just cracked up and cannot take this subject seriously again today.
When one considers the state of the economy and this administration's ever increasing erosion of our liberties, its rather sad the subject is taken seriously at all.
Aridog, yes I said the word icky, I'm trying to understand exactly what Sweet Chipper DID mean by his statement though. Maybe he SHOULD animate it, as someone upstream suggested.
Inga said...
Ohhhhh, yes now I get it, Chip Ahoy likes them just fine, but he thinks what they do is icky, so.....
No, Inga...actually Chip Ahoy didn't say "icky", YOU did....that is your perception perhaps, but Chip didn't call it "icky", YOU did.
PS: I have to admit when this thread reached the "... to love and honor, and refrain from butt fucking" part...I just cracked up and cannot take this subject seriously again today.
What if the herpes virus - an incurable, predominantly heterosexually transmitted disease - mutates and becomes fatal?
Aridog? Where did you go?
Oh there you are!
There's something a little skewered about health conscious people warning us about large sodas and too much salt and completely ignoring the health risks associated with butt fucking. I would have more respect for Mayor Bloomberg if, during one of his diatribes about sodas and handguns, he would take the time to say that butt fucking is even more dangerous than a large soda. This would show that he's really serious abou the health of his citizens.
"What if the herpes virus - an incurable, predominantly heterosexually transmitted disease - mutates and becomes fatal?"
OK, then we will be forced to survive via homosexual reproduction, but it's gonna be "icky".
There's something a little skewered about health conscious people warning us about large sodas and too much salt and completely ignoring the health risks associated with butt fucking.
There you go. The one behavior that has demonstrably set off a worldwide epidemic that killed tens of millions leads to...
A demand for gay marriage and the enshrinement of gays as romantic victims!
@ bags: lol!
I know I'm just a silly little girl, but every time I read "butt fucking" I crack up. Could we just stick with "butthole surfing" please.
Inga asks ...
I'm trying to understand exactly what Sweet Chipper DID mean by his statement...
No you are not, what he said was straight forward descriptive of sex acts. He added no adjectives to qualify the terms, so no further interpretation is required. Your "Sweet Chipper" not-with-standing....your adjective. When in a hole, stop digging.
You want to make it more than it is, so YOU projected "icky" from your own consciousness. You might want to think about that before you go all condescending about it. It isn't a capital crime to call something "icky"...just be aware of just who feels that way.
If I might briefly return to the more specific topic of the post, I believe Portman eventually came out (heh) in support of gay marriage because his son is gay. If I've got that right, that is either an admirable position or not, but it is NOT principled. A principled position is one you've come to based upon stated beliefs that lead you to a specific conclusion. You adopt that conclusion even when it is difficult, or adversely affects you or a family member.
Whether his position is right or wrong, it seems pretty clear he would not have taken it had his son been heterosexual. Changing his position to help his son is nice, I guess, but that's not a basis on which I want politicians making policy. Why is this any better than a politician with a banker kid changing his position on legislation that helps his son? In some cases, that could even be illegal.
I also note this is not the way Prof. Althouse came to her own conclusion on the topic.
Just out of curiosity, I just googled "semen enema."
Yep.
What if the herpes virus - an incurable, predominantly heterosexually transmitted disease - mutates and becomes fatal?
Condom use goes up and people become more.selective with you they have sex with.
"Condom use goes up and people become more.selective with you they have sex with."
Is that a typo or are you promising me something you can't possibly deliver?
You who!
Aridog, ok sure, whatever you say, it's not worth arguing over. But how did you get into my consciousness? The same way I got into Sweet Chip's.
Is that a typo or are you promising me something you can't possibly deliver?
Typo.
Who you?
Aridog, ok sure, whatever you say, it's not worth arguing over
In the future you might want to consider your words more carefully so when challenged, you can come up with something more substantial then 'whatever'.
I've said before you seem like a decent person but I think much of the scorn heaped upon you is because you make unfounded statements, projections and downright contradictory comments that when challenged, 'whatever' is all you can muster.
Deliberately chosen informed behavior. Once gay men became educated to the causes of the disease, their behavior changed. The demographic groups for whom HIV is currently most rapidly spreading are not gay males.
Granted it was a while before everyone knew about AIDS specifically, but even beforehand, I strongly suspect that men who had promiscuous gay sex were fully aware that there were risks of other diseases, of injury, and of crime/other victimization inherent in the act.
Colonel, I really don't need you to oh so paternally give me advice as to how I should comment here at Althouse. I don't tell you what to say in order not to sound like a male chauvinist do I? Oh, I just did!
I haven't looked up the stats in a while, but as I recall the populations in which HIV/AIDs was rampant did vary in different parts of the world, at least after the initial large wave in the male homosexual population. Is that not the case anymore?
I don't tell you what to say in order not to sound like a male chauvinist do I?
"Male chauvinist" is a negative description of a positive thing.
You're so invested in the feminist ideal of being disagreeable and rebellious, Inga, that you've got your head firmly up your posterior.
Oh now my daddy ST, tries to tell me what to say and do.
Amusing, despite being tiresome.
Granted it was a while before everyone knew about AIDS specifically, but even beforehand, I strongly suspect that men who had promiscuous gay sex were fully aware that there were risks of other diseases, of injury, and of crime/other victimization inherent in the act.
The suspect behavior that caused the AIDS epidemic was gangbanging with dozens of men in pools of shit and piss, Erika.
I'm being quite literal.
Oh now my daddy ST, tries to tell me what to say and do.
Your behavior is so childish and foolish, Inga.
What in the hell to you expect me to do?
Inga asks ...
But how did you get into my consciousness? The same way I got into Sweet Chip's.
There you go again. I'm not in your consciousness unless you let me in...I merely stated plainly who called what "icky" and made no judgment about veracity. And what on earth makes you think you got in to Chip Ahoy's consciousness? You continue to project your concepts on others.
Hint: Put these words together in a helpful manner.
Hole
Digging
Shovel
Stop
Icky ...opps, no, skip that one. :-))
What Patrick at 12:24 said.
PS: I have to admit when this thread reached the "... to love and honor, and refrain from butt fucking" part...I just cracked up and cannot take this subject seriously again today.
But, I repeat myself ... I'll quit now.
ST, you are the last person to scold or preach. At least the Colonel seems sincere. There is way way too much paternalism on Althouse. Women are not children, they do not act any more childish at any given time than men do. Attack the character, attack the maturity, attack the style of commenting, it's an obvious way to discredit the credibility of the commenter. Time after time this is the way many males here tend to operate.
Is it the way conservatives males operate? I see it more often than when interacting with liberal males.
Colonel, I really don't need you to oh so paternally give me advice as to how I should comment here at Althouse. I don't tell you what to say in order not to sound like a male chauvinist do I? Oh, I just did!
Since you have more than a few years on me, its rather difficult for me to be paternal toward you. I suppose if I had called you dearie, or sweetie like you did toward Chip, I suppose that could be construed as paternal, but I didn't.
Furthermore, my comment was quite gender neutral so I can only conclude that your male chauvenist ad hominem could only be yet another example of your use of projection when offering an opinion.
Inga, the principle organizing principle of Christianity is...
God the Father...
Does that tell you something?
Yes, it infuriates you. So what? I'm Catholic. I just regard your fury as rebellion against the will of God.
Not that I want to do anything about it.
Well then Colonel, be respectful of your elders.;)
Inga, I thought you might have noticed by now that the concerns of feminism don't concern me at all.
I don't care whether or not I play by feminist rules.
The whole "equality" game is bullshit so far as I'm concerned.
There is way way too much paternalism on Althouse. Women are not children, they do not act any more childish at any given time than men do. Attack the character, attack the maturity, attack the style of commenting, it's an obvious way to discredit the credibility of the commenter. Time after time this is the way many males here tend to operate.
This is what I mean about projection. You're not being challenged because you are a female, your arguments are challenged because quite frankly, many of them are plain dumb. I've witnessed numerous male commenters here who are regularly challenged yet somehow if you are its chauvinism.
As I suggested, make a solid argument, one which is supported by facts and not out of whole cloth where your response is not whatever and playing the oppressed woman.
Well then Colonel, be respectful of your elders.;)
There was nothing disrespectful in my comment. Unless of course offering constructive criticism of an older person is disrespectful.
What is even more amusing is that the Colonel doesn't seem to understand that I am being polite in my dealings with him, as I find many of his arguments to be less than cogent.
Ah well.
What is even more amusing is that the Colonel doesn't seem to understand that I am being polite in my dealings with him, as I find many of his arguments to be less than cogent.
Calling me a male chauvinist despite the fact I displayed nothing that indicated male superiority is being polite?
What's rude?
I think if herpes were a fatal disease, a lot of swingers would reconsider their views on monogamous marriage. I think butt fucking is an inherently risky activity. Who wants to trust their lives to the tensile strength of a delicate latex shield? A monogamous marriage would diminish these risks. It is both moral and sane for gays to enter a monogamous marriage. Some people choose morality and some people have it thrust (so to speak) upon them.......I would recommend that every condom be sold with a warning label that butt fucking can be harmful to your health. Perhaps a color picture of a syphlitic asshole would further underline the message. Large sodas and butt fucks are things that should be indulged in prudently, if at all.
If you can't mock proponents of butt fucking, why not?
I think we should let the gays have the word marriage. and then those of us who care can use something else.
Good idea, fritz. We straights could just trade terms with gays:
It was his second civil union.
They have a very happy civil union.
Her first two civil unions ended in (un)civil disunification.
She has old-fashioned ideas about civil union.
Couples living together before civil union
Many friends and relatives were present at their civil union.
A priest who has performed many civil unions
A civil union of sweet and spicy flavors
A civil union of science and art
A civil union between form and function
Poor bastard - born out of civil union.
So the language gets a little less poetic; it's a small price to pay.
Inga said...
Still yapping, demented poodle style?
Still can't come up with anything intelligent, much less witty?
Once gay men became educated to the causes of the disease, their behavior changed.
From the CDC: Out of 33,221 new diagnosed cases of HIV in the U.S. in 2011, 21,005 were due to male-to-male sexual contact.
Should have noted that 33,221 was newly diagnosed cases of HIV just among males.
> Why are you just passing over the bitterly destructive behavior of gay men in your lifetime? Gay men set off a global epidemic that killed millions of people with their behavior.
This is flatly false.
1. The AIDS epidemic did not originate in North America, nor among gay men.
2. The primary vector of AIDS infection in France in the 80s and 90s and in Africa to date is nonmonogamous heterosexual sex. Africa accounts for most of those millions you mentioned.
3. If God sent a plague to strike down gay men, why did he make it treatable?
4. Is God down with lesbians, since he didn't send them a plague?
4. Is God down with lesbians, since he didn't send them a plague?
HIV is just a virus, not a punishment. Besides, lesbians don't usually take loads up the ass unprotected, do they?
Shouting Thomas:
You kept spreading misinformation that reveals your profound ignorance and I'm surprised no one on here has corrected it yet. While it is true that in the US, more gay men are infected with HIV than heterosexuals, worldwide, more heterosexuals are infected. In fact, in sub-saharan Africa, where 70% of infections currently are (the US and Europe represent a tiny, tiny percentage), the majority of infected individuals are women (and not, it seems from the best epidemiology) as a result of having sex with men who have sex with men. The disease first entered humans in Africa, in a non-homosexual population as far as the molecular epidemiology can tell and it is quite good and the disease only emerged in the last 100 years, in part as a result of rural hunting practices that left individuals expose to primate blood. Maybe you intend your comments to be restricted to the US only, but it seems strange that God's punishment would focus so narrowly on Western European and US homosexuals and involve the slaughter of many more "innocent" (in your view) heterosexuals in Africa.
It is clear though, that the epidemic in the US derived from and remained separate therafter from the epidemic in Africa (there is still a clear lineage separation in the viruses that circulate). Your science--to say nothing of your theology, which the pope wouldn't recognize as Catholic--is seriously perverted.
Wonderful, as I was typing, tesseractive made the same points in much shorter format. Thank you!
I do wonder if all the "straight" men who immediately turn to thoughts of "butt fucking" and "cock sucking" hate women. In their minds, is the whole point of marriage "pussy pounding"--otherwise they'd rather not have anything to do with women and certainly not spend a life together?
Maybe you intend your comments to be restricted to the US only, but it seems strange that God's punishment would focus so narrowly on Western European and US homosexuals and involve the slaughter of many more "innocent" (in your view) heterosexuals in Africa.
Suppose we take you misguided thought that HIV is "God's punishment." Are you saying that its spread in Africa is due to self-controlled people practicing monogamy?
> HIV is just a virus, not a punishment.
Shouting Thomas said that he decided homosexuality was wrong when he saw the AIDS virus sweep through the gay community.
If it were merely hazardous to one's health, like smoking, skydiving, or serving in the army in time of war, then there wouldn't be any particular moral dimension to it -- it might be dangerous and perhaps even foolhardy, but it wouldn't be wrong.
The only reason I can think of for a disease to be proof of something being morally wrong would be if one believed that disease to be a punishment.
@Paulio: I'm just wondering if you're one of those Sullivanists wanting to normalize HIV.
Shouting Thomas said that he decided homosexuality was wrong when he saw the AIDS virus sweep through the gay community.
I read him as being strongly opposed to their reckless promiscuity. That and the opprobrium unleashed on those opposed to criticizing such promiscuity.
> I read him as being strongly opposed to their reckless promiscuity. That and the opprobrium unleashed on those opposed to criticizing such promiscuity.
That doesn't seem like a very compelling rationale for being opposed to homosexuality in general. There are both homosexual and heterosexual people who are promiscuous, and both homosexual and heterosexual people who are not.
If one wanted to criticize promiscuity, it seems silly to criticize homosexuality. It seems even sillier in the context of gay marriage, since settling down with a long-term partner and getting married is the very opposite of promiscuity.
@Paulio: I'm just wondering if you're one of those Sullivanists wanting to normalize HIV.
I'm not sure what a Sullivanist is (I know you are referring to Andrew Sullivan, but I don't know what particular caricature of him you have dancing in your head, nor do I care) but I don't want any disease "normalized", I'd like to see them eradicated, with good old-fashioned Western science. We're doing pretty good with HIV, from a world-historical perspective, with the first recognition of the disease, leading to the identification of its causative agent within 6 years or so and a reasonably effective treatment regiment in another 10 years (the triple therapy). There have been of course tragic loses along the way and it would always be welcome for things to move more quickly.
I am for not blaming victims of disease. I am for educating people to engage in healthy behaviors and I do have my own opinion on the morality of particular actions that might even agree with some (though I think probably not all) of yours, but I am not for snidely telling others that they earned their disease or that their suffering is proof of my moral superiority. I am a Christian.
Besides, lesbians don't usually take loads up the ass unprotected, do they?
No, but a lot of women do, or at least did, in other, not first-world countries due to such intercourse posing a lower risk of pregnancy. Or because they have no choice. Or some combo. Helluva thing. Not all contexts are exactly the same. Not all realities are precisely equal. No matter what, there are all sorts of bullshits and ignorance.
I find your comments funny, often. I find them informative, frequently.
I find this one to be stupid and cheap. No doubt you will be disappointed in me for saying so, as you are any time my prism differs.
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