How does North Dakota do it? “It’s not by having such great sex ed, contraception access, and abortion providers,” Guttmacher senior researcher Laura Lindberg told me, listing off solutions favored in more liberal states. No—North Dakota has one Planned Parenthood in a 700,000 square-mile state. Seventy-five percent of North Dakotans live in counties with no abortion provider. State law mandates abstinence-only education in its schools....The scare is for progressives who want to believe their anti-teen-pregnancy policies work best. So it can't be that all the policies they've opposed — abstinence only education! — actually work. The theory is presented that North Dakota — with all that fracking — has a booming economy and females delay pregnancy when economic prospects are high (and when there's a plentiful supply of men to choose from).
Now, here's the craftily written last paragraph of the article (which appears at Slate and The Washington Post):
Add it all up—a sparsely-populated state heavy in white men, low in sex education, and bursting with oil—and you don’t find many helpful clues for crafting national policy....It's important for progressives to exclude the good results in North Dakota, which call into question whether the progressive policies are the correct policies. Time to quote a professor:
“North Dakota is just off-the-charts, demographically,” says June Carbone, a law professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and co-author of Red Families vs. Blue Families: Legal Polarization and the Creation of Culture. The state may prove that white, middle-class teens will probably do OK in the absence of comprehensive sex ed and well-funded reproductive health centers, as “they’ll learn from their families, their peers, their doctors, and the internet.” But that doesn’t change the fact that “the pernicious impact of abstinence-only education is its combination with poverty,” Carbone says. “The best contraceptive has always been a promising future, and North Dakota is one of the few places in the United States right now that is booming."Off-the-charts, demographically... white, middle-class teens will probably do OK... I can think of a way to translate that into blunter language that would — speaking of scary — sound really awful.
Posts
134 comments:
Off-the-charts, demographically... white, middle-class teens will probably do OK...
Wow! The unstated corollary is damning.
The social stigma of giving birth out of wedlock in small town rural white America is hellacious.
And, it works!
Damn that shaming!
The best contraceptive has always been a promising future,
Probably one of the more idiotic comments I've read. This is from a professor? I'm glad I saved myself some money and time avoiding college.
Abstinence education is a euphemism for "your parents will kick your ass to the moon!"
It's the old "proximity to the Canadian border" as best predictor of good social outcomes. If only Mississippi could move to the Canadian border, they'd do fine!
The comments on that article are facinating. About 90 percent pretty much break down to "white people don't get knocked up." Is this the prevailing attitude among liberals.
Gucci Little Piggy hit this piece rather well today.
Ah, a good laugh was had by all.
Liberalism Versus Blacks by Thomas Sowell.
What liberals have done to the black family.
Poverty is the mother of babies.
Notice also this gem from the article:
(Besides, North Dakota’s not doing that hot—the state may look good next to the rest of the U.S., but it still boasts a higher teen birth rate than most of Europe).
Left out of the equation here is the fact that no European country has a high birth rate among any age group of women. European teen-age girls who don't have babies grow up to be European women who don't have babies, either.
Th only exception to this low birth rate are the Muslim immigrant women, and knowing that your family will honor-kill you if you have a baby out of wedlock is no doubt a strong disincentive.
The idea these kids may have been raised right, rather than in a Lefty enclave in the Inner City or the upscale 'burbs seems to have never entered these people's heads.
"What's The Matter With Kansas?", (actually, very little now that the Silver Haired Angel of Death has decamped to DC) revisited.
a law professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City
Wow. What a stellar credential.
I wonder by how much enrollment figures are cratering on U-MO/KC
The proper liberal progressive way is to tell students to watch "two and a half men", get high or drunk, fuck like rabbits and obey your hormones! (after all, you don't need to have any self control) - sex sex sex!... but "use a condom!" If you don't use a condom, no big deal. Thanks to Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama, you can get a free, tax payer funded abortion at Planned Parenthood.
The idea these kids may have been raised right, rather than in a Lefty enclave in the Inner City or the upscale 'burbs seems to have never entered these people's heads.
What seems to bother them is that the kids were raised by, you know, their parents, instead of by the advice of experts.
Ummm, how do they explain that low pregnancy rates PRE-DATE the recent oil/gas boom?? Oops.
Don't remind some people how superfluous they might be.
I think Guttmacher means "we just make stuff up" in German.
One thing that struck me was the line "You might think there would be higher rates of teen pregnancy with more seed floating around..."
So seed is just "floating around"? I think that gives a bit of perspective on where the writer is coming from.
In other words, 'Even when we're wrong, we're right, because... shut up.'
So, Althouse can see through this asinine, head up the ass piece of sophistry.
Is there any hope that she will see that giving one bauble after another to gays to "prove we like them" (i.e., gay marriage) might just be head up the ass sophistry?
Don't count on it.
I'll bet those dumb asses out in North Dakota can see through Althouse's head up the ass sophistry, too!
This article may be one of the dumbest things ever written.
"So seed is just "floating around"? I think that gives a bit of perspective on where the writer is coming from."
Reminds me of the old sex-ed question whether you can get pregnant from a swimming pool...
Know what else is really low in North Dakota? Firearm homicides.
Consider:
North Dakota:
Minimal gun restrictions
Minimal sex ed, contraception access, and abortion providers
Washington DC:
Maximum gun restrictions
Expansive sex ed, contraception access, and abortion providers
Welcome to opposite world.
Ann,
You are slowly becomeing a conservative.. Not Republican (heck they AINT conservative) but a true conservative who sees the light.
Left out of the equation here is the fact that no European country has a high birth rate among any age group of women. European teen-age girls who don't have babies grow up to be European women who don't have babies, either.
Do you have any evidence that Europeans have less sex than Americans. That is the operative question, not the birth rate.
I coincidentally (and no bullshit) watched the very first episode of BSG last night. Weird.
I assumed it was the extensive use of being online/media over all for the country. Teens don't meet up and hang out, as much as the use to. They spend more time alone using XboX Live/Skype to talk and play with their friends, then to make plans to meet up.
Teens spend more time sexting in bed and online pornography, rather physically hooking up with another person.
We have rule in our home, no media/communication devices in our bedroom. And that actually goes for the children as well.
How do they do it? White people.
"...off-the-charts demographically..." == demonstration of the superiority of WASP culture. Not ALL cultures are created equal, else the Central African Republic would currently be an economic and human rights power-house..
"The state may prove that white, middle-class teens will probably do OK in the absence of comprehensive sex ed and well-funded reproductive health centers, as “they’ll learn from their families, their peers, their doctors, and the internet.” But that doesn’t change the fact that “the pernicious impact of abstinence-only education is its combination with poverty,” Carbone says."
Wow. I guess the theme for the day is ruling class condescension, because I can't think of anything more condescending than outright stating that the poor are somehow dumber than the middle class. Less educated, sure, but the implication here wasn't that they make bad choices (which is the reality of things) or that those choices were made due to lack of education, it's that those people are actually immune to instruction and education unless it's of one specific theme.
Yes, folks, that's the condescension inherent in the above quote. That professor is saying that poor, non white people cannot learn abstinence. That's the point she's trying to make.
Wow. What a stellar credential.
Practice elitist snobbery much?
If it's hard to get an abortion, you take more care not to get pregnant.
This is an observation, not a recommendation.
If only those stupid minorities knew how much graduate work liberals have done to improve their miserable lot.
It's important for progressives to exclude the good results in North Dakota, which call into question whether the progressive policies are the correct policies. Time to quote a professor.
Why is it only important for progressives? If you are developing policy, any rational person (progressive or not) would look at outliers and try and understand why it is an outlier. Otherwise, you are just ignorant.
So, what about it, Althouse? Lightbulb going off in head?
Those dumb asses out in the stix might have been entirely correct in their traditional attitude toward gays? They might not actually have been operating on "prejudice?" They might have been operating on "traditional wisdom" and "experience?"
How many lightning jolts will it take to bring you down to reality?
The idea that women with a future will hold off to have a baby until marriage with a man that has the same future sounds about right.
Promises I Can Keep: Why Poor Women Put Motherhood Before Marriage.
Explains a lot about their decisions..
Freder...
Outlier = white people.
Jesus, you have to work hard to be that stupid!
That professor is saying that poor, non white people cannot learn abstinence. That's the point she's trying to make.
Again you are assuming that middle class white people are having less sex than poor people. Unless you can show this, your point is moot.
pduggie's comment@9:10 is instructive. "proximity to the Canadian border" as a predictor of good social outcomes is just another way of saying that such outcomes occur in states that are overwhelmingly white in racial composition..
Most of the kids in North Dakota are too obese to have sex in ordinary ways. They need special harnesses and chairs which they can't afford on their limited allowances. There are, of course, some thin teen agers in Norh Dakota but most of them are chronic alcoholics with diminished libidinal energy.
Can't wait for Ritmo to join this thread. Hilarity will ensue!
Meanwhile, Freder can hold down the blockheaded stupidity angle in Ritmo's absence.
I'm gonna go practice on the pipe organ. My local church has the most beautiful organ.
When a finger points to the moon, the imbecile looks at the finger. – Chinese Proverb
But I thought fracking led to the other F word?
North Dakota has one Planned Parenthood in a 700,000 square-mile state
For starters, ND is NOT 700,000 square miles; it has 700,000 people. Second, this entire premise is nonsense. It's a mostly farming state; kids are too busy helping their parents maintain a farm to do much else.
In other words, the 20th century invention of adolescence is not as existent in ND as a lot of other places.
Not much of a surprise when you consider teen birth rates are relatively low amongst white people and that North Dakota has a lot of white people.
The scare is for progressives who want to believe their anti-teen-pregnancy policies work best.
Not really that scary since there are blue states with lower teen pregnancy rates than North Dakota. [Minnesota, Vermont]. Massachusetts and Wisconsin are virtually tied with North Dakota.
The states with highest birthrates for 15-19 yr olds are in the south and southwest.
I love the armchair sociology in this thread.
Farmers don't have sex!
Look at the states being compared.
Does North Dakota have any large urban centers?
Perhaps it's a combination of culture and the lack of large urban centers, rather than sex ed which is the driving factor.
In terms of both violence and violence-by-firearm, the presence of large urban cities has more effect than any gun law.
"Freder Frederson said...
Again you are assuming that middle class white people are having less sex than poor people. Unless you can show this, your point is moot."
Your response is a non-sequitur. Professor Carbone is saying that only one message works for the non-white poor. I'm not assuming anything about the sex rate among middle class white people, I'm pointing out that Carbone is saying that poor non-whites are incapable of benefiting from the same teachings middle class whites are given.
Until you comprehend what I'm saying, your point is irrelevant.
I love that "they'll do well in the absence of comprehensive sex ed." That's why they're doing well: the absence of comprehensive sex ed.
Does North Dakota have any large urban centers?
Bingo. And neither does Vermont. And Minnesota has one. States with higher teen birth rates have multiple urban centers, or a large percent of a state's population is in an urban center.
I love that "they'll do well in the absence of comprehensive sex ed." That's why they're doing well: the absence of comprehensive sex ed.
The Fox Butterfield effect in action.
The author's point about the male-to-female ratio is interesting. When many men compete for few women, men have to do what the women want. When many women compete for few men, women have to do what the men want.
Seems like that can explain a lot about both high-teen-pregnancy and low-teen-pregancy demographics.
Seems like that can explain a lot about both high-teen-pregnancy and low-teen-pregancy demographics.
This is all good and fine, but it ignores the fact that ND has always had low teen pregnancy rates.
@Cath I would argue that too, but Alaska has a huge male-female imbalance and high teen birth rates.
if its true, though, it may show why locking up so many black men has led to bad teen pregnancy outcomes in the black underclass.
Henry said...
I love the armchair sociology in this thread. Farmers don't have sex!
Sex Farm
Working on a sex farm
Trying to raise some hard love
Getting out my pitch fork
Poking your hay
Scratching in your hen house
Sniffing at your feedbag
Slipping out your back door
Leaving my spray
Sex farm woman, I'm gonna mow you down
Sex farm woman, I'll rake and hoe you down
Sex farm woman, don't you see my silo rising high?
Working on a sex farm
Hosing down your barn door
Bothering your livestock
They know what I need
Working up a hot sweat
Crouching in your pea patch
Plowing through your bean field
Planting my seed
Sex farm woman, I'll be your hired hand
Sex farm woman, I'll let my offer stand
Sex farm woman, don't you hear my tractor rumbling by?
Working on a sex farm
Trying to raise some hard love
Getting out my pitch fork
Poking your hay
Bingo. And neither does Vermont. And Minnesota has one. States with higher teen birth rates have multiple urban centers, or a large percent of a state's population is in an urban center
Top ten states with highest teen pregnancy rate:
1. New Mexico
2. Mississippi
3. Texas
4. Nevada
5. Arkansas
6. Arizona
7. Delaware
8. Louisiana
9. Oklahoma
10. Georgia
Alaska has a huge male-female imbalance and high teen birth rates.
Wondering if this has to do with boredom because of bad weather most of the year?
I'm not assuming anything about the sex rate among middle class white people
Yes you are, you are assuming that middle-class white people take abstinence only education to heart, leading to less sex and, therefore, fewer unwanted pregnancies.
Without evidence of how frequently North Dakotans are having sex, it is equally valid to say: The reason the birth rate is so low is that Middle Class white people are ignoring the abstinence only education and effectively using birth control.
ST: What does this have to do with Gays? I'm not saying anyone ought to have to accept their lifestyle as "OK," though frankly it doesn't bother me. It's just another expression of sex.
Or are you saying that social mores are quite important in sexual reproduction? I can get behind that one. Marriage is important for children. Check. Out of wedlock reproduction should be shamed. Check. Not certain about lesbians and families, though the kids do turn out different, and it's hard to say if it's bad or good, though I suspect bad. So let's understand before embracing it. Check.
But gays? Let them do what they want, so long as they aren't in ones face saying "Oh, look at me." The same rules ought to apply to every prima donna. Shunned by society. Society ought to do it.
Top ten states with highest teen pregnancy rate
No fair citing facts. You'll ruin the theory that urban whores are the ones having sex!
Farmers don't have sex!
I guess the real question is what is the birth rate of human/farm animal hybrids in North Dakota.
New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona
High concentration of the state's population in one or two major urban areas; high Mexican population.
Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma, Georgia
A lot of very poor, mostly black small towns with big city problems. Large urban areas that are predominantly black.
Texas
The same causes as both Mississippi and New Mexico; numerous large urban areas.
Delaware
Not quite getting this one, other than Wilmington and Dover being a big chunk of the state's population.
If you're willing to NOT be politically correct, this all makes perfect sense. North Dakota does not fit any of the above profiles, and neither does Vermont or Minnesota.
Freder Frederson said...
Without evidence of how frequently North Dakotans are having sex, it is equally valid to say: The reason the birth rate is so low is that Middle Class white people are ignoring the abstinence only education and effectively using birth control.
Actually, if you ignore what is written in the article cited in Ann's post you could say that.
You are frothning at the mouth stupid here this morning.
Teenagers in North Dakota are inherently more responsible than those in blue states.
Actually, if you look at the rate by state, it appears as if the teens in red states are generally more responsible. The lowest teen pregnancy rates are in the liberal northeast.
If you check out the data of the 2008 study you will discover that there were 1,000 girls between 15-19 who became single moms, and that by 12th grade 62% of the teens has some kind of sexual experience. I don't know if frackking has anything to do with this study, but clearly someone is using some form of birth control. Interestingly the rest of the states that have lower birth rates are progressives ones--what to make of that? Link: http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/state-data/state-profile.aspx?state=northdakota
Interestingly the rest of the states that have lower birth rates are progressives ones--what to make of that?
Try overlaying that data with abortion rates and/or abortion access. What do make of that?
Actually, if you ignore what is written in the article cited in Ann's post you could say that.
Actually, the article says nothing about how much sex teenagers in ND are having. pregnancy rate does not necessarily reflect the rate of sexual activity.
Has North Dakota ever been a hotbed of teen pregnancy, or is it just North Dakota?
I blame the weather. Frozen immobile sperm. Look at the list of high rate states - mostly warm
I'm just flying back after being snowed-in in Chicago. I can't believe there are homeless sleeping on the street in the snow." Get up, aim south, and start walking. How could it be worse than where you are?
If it's hard to get an abortion, you take more care not to get pregnant.
This is an observation, not a recommendation.
And, as I can attest living in a very VERY small town, the shaming factor of getting pregnant looms large. In a small town, everyone knows where you are going [they recognize you by your cars and trucks], what you are doing, who you are doing it with and everything you do or DON'T do will be discussed in great detail at the morning coffee klatches. At school you are the subject of gossip. People in the next town over ALSO know what you are up to. In a small town there are people who just LIVE to gossip.
This all goes double for the adults too :-D
In a small town, as a teenager [my daughter found this out to her dismay] everyone is going to "tell your parents" when you are getting into trouble. They do this because they hope you will do the same for their children.
In a large city, you don't know your neighbors and they don't want to know you. You don't really care about them and they damned sure don't care about you. It is easy to 'misbehave' when no one, not even your parents are concerned about you.
Never underestimate the coercive power of public opinion.
When people accept responsibility for their actions and lives, they earn an opportunity to enjoy liberty. When they accept promises incompatible with reality, they enjoy dissociation of risk and the corruption it engenders.
The nonsense of the generational progressive and liberal movements is either normalized or rejected at home. It is the principal responsibility of parents to promote their children's adherence to reality.
They wanted sex. They wanted redistributive (and retributive) change. They wanted democratic leverage. They sponsored dysfunctional behaviors. They denigrated individual dignity. They devalued human life. They have earned the right to defer their dignity to the men and women who made false promises.
As for sex education, teach biology. It's not that complicated. It is a choice which comes with responsibility.
Perhaps Obama is right, liberty (and a human life) is an inconvenient burden.
Perhaps Kerry is right, a large minority or slight majority of Americans are too stupid to enjoy liberty.
Perhaps Sunstein is right, there is an argument for coercive paternalism... for the selected survivors of birth till their graves.
The best contraceptive is responsibility. The greatest burden is dissociation of risk. Only an exceedingly small minority ever enjoy the latter without its attendant consequences.
Without evidence of how frequently North Dakotans are having sex, it is equally valid to say: The reason the birth rate is so low is that Middle Class white people are ignoring the abstinence only education and effectively using birth control.
I deleted a comment because I thought you must have been posting tongue in cheek, but reading through your other comments, I think you believe people ought to take this seriously.
Are you out of your mind? Restricted access to the pill. No education on the pill. Abstinence only education. And you think it's reasonable to consider that these girls are having as much sex per capita as states with high out of wedlock rates?
Either you have a very dim view of the effectiveness of government programs (I agree with that), or you are out of your mind. Which is it?
--Cath I would argue that too, but Alaska has a huge male-female imbalance and high teen birth rates--
People like to snuggle in cold weather.
Why do they count 18 and 19 year old women in teen pregnancy rates?
At 18 I thought I was an adult, and not a teen. Yeah, I wasn't in my 20's, but I wasn't a minor either.
n.n.:
The greatest burden is dissociation of risk. Only an exceedingly small minority ever enjoy the latter without its attendant consequences.
I would say "An increasing number enjoy the latter without its attendant consequences." Mostly due to government programs that subsidize the irresponsible behavior.
bagoh:
I blame the weather. Frozen immobile sperm. Look at the list of high rate states - mostly warm
Boxer or briefs guy? Studies show, . . .
So, pregnancy rates are inversely proportional to access to Planned Parenthood. Noted.
But I thought fracking was how you got pregnant.
Without evidence of how frequently North Dakotans are having sex, it is equally valid to say: The reason the birth rate is so low is that Middle Class white people are ignoring the abstinence only education and effectively using birth control.
Without evidence to say that Frederson has influence on North Dakota Teens, it's equally valid to say the reason North Dakota Teens have low out of wedlock birth rates is that they didn't listen to Frederson.
NM, NV, AZ, OK, I wonder what the stats are on reservations?
@ n.n.
If they taught biology, then they would be teaching the underlying rules of Natural Family Planning, i.e. monitoring fertility mucus at the time up to ovulation in a young woman.
Knowledge of biology would kill the pharmaceutical industry monopoly on contraception. They really don't do enough to teach the mechanisms of the Good Ol' Menstrual Cycle in comprehensive sex ed, it's mostly a commercial for contraception.
Other then your boyfriend shouldn't hit you, they should of done more to address domestic violence in my own experience.
I think the most interesting part of the explanation is the high sex ratios (high male/female). This would distinguish ND from culturally and demographically similar states like SD, Idaho, Montana. The theory of course is that high sex ratios allow girls to be more selective. If that's the way the cause and effect works it would mean that Bill Bennett [or the drug warrior of your choice] is responsible for thousands of teenage pregnancies. (That would make a great headline.)
NM, NV, AZ, OK, I wonder what the stats are on reservations?
Heap big.
teens in red states are generally more responsible. The lowest teen pregnancy rates are in the liberal northeast.
That doesn't even make sense.
If they taught the destruction of 50 years of hormones on our bodies and waterways, I wonder what would happen?
How can you agitate for clean/pure water & hormones? Cos they can't filter them out yet.
"Freder Frederson said...
I'm not assuming anything about the sex rate among middle class white people
Yes you are, you are assuming that middle-class white people take abstinence only education to heart, leading to less sex and, therefore, fewer unwanted pregnancies.
Without evidence of how frequently North Dakotans are having sex, it is equally valid to say: The reason the birth rate is so low is that Middle Class white people are ignoring the abstinence only education and effectively using birth control. "
*Sigh*. Freder, you need to read the article. For the second time, I am not the one saying it. Professor Carbone and the article's author is. From the article:
"North Dakota is just off-the-charts, demographically,” says June Carbone, a law professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City and co-author of Red Families vs. Blue Families: Legal Polarization and the Creation of Culture. The state may prove that white, middle-class teens will probably do OK in the absence of comprehensive sex ed and well-funded reproductive health centers, as “they’ll learn from their families, their peers, their doctors, and the internet."
The base assumption of the article and the professor's statement is that abstinence education is what's responsible. They're the ones stating it, not me. You need to recognize that what I am commenting on is their statement, which includes the very assumption you are accusing me of originating.
If your criticism is that the claim of lower sex rate is a poorly supported base assumption, then you need to aim that criticism at them, not me. My comment is aimed at the racism inherent in Professor Carbone's conclusion - a conclusion based on her presumptions - that only middle class whites can benefit from a certain type of sex education. As if poor nonwhites somehow cannot learn from their own families, peers, and for those who go, their doctors. That's what I'm commenting on, but you seem to want to concentrate on pasting her presumptions onto me. Again: I'm not making that assumption. I'm working off of her conclusions.
I don't know how else to say that. Please read the article and understand that it's them who are saying what you're hoisting off onto me.
So, pregnancy rates are inversely proportional to access to Planned Parenthood. Noted.
Not according to the data.
Not according to the data.
What gets counted as pregnancy rate? Just being pregnant or trying to carry a pregnancy to term? Does a pregnancy that ends in abortion count into the pregnancy rate total?
What states have the highest abortion rates?
Follow the Guttmacher link. The data is all there.
The base assumption of the article and the professor's statement is that abstinence education is what's responsible.
You have reading comprehension difficulties. the base assumption of the professor's statement is the exact opposite. That in spite of abstinence education, middle class kids will find out about the proper use of birth control elsewhere.
I don't know the reason for the paucity of little bastards in ND (or why it's alwaays been low -- even before fracking was ever heard of) ... or in other places like VT, but I know it has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.
And it has nothing to do with a paternalistic government, either, which is why we will not see bastardification grow as the reach of government grows.
Ask this professor:
1) is having a child out of wedlock a bad choice?
2) does being born poor necessarily lead to bad choices?
3) does making bad choices necessarily lead to being poor?
At 18 I thought I was an adult, and not a teen. Yeah, I wasn't in my 20's, but I wasn't a minor either." - Renee
If you can't legally drink because of your age, you are not an adult, and in this messed-up nation, no one under 21 can legally drink. Absurd.
(Anyone who counters with "But you can vote at 18!"; or, "You can fight in a war at 18!!!" gets ridiculed.
The best contraceptive is being born to two parents who spend the next 18 years engaged in making sure you are brought up to understand the concepts of self-respect, individual reponsibility and morality.
But if you only have one parent bringing you up and they either don't have the concern or don't have the time (because they're working two jobs) to make you understand that:
1) your body is yours and no one else has a right to use it or make you socially unacceptable if you won't let them use it,
2) you don't have kids unless you are married and can afford to pay for their support, and
3) you have no right to make other people responsible for the consequences of your behavior.
Ron F:
1. Yes, always.
2. Being human necessarily leads to bad choices. The issue is: How bad are the choices and do you learn from your mistakes and work to correct them?
3. Not necessarily.
Freder Frederson said...
Actually, the article says nothing about how much sex teenagers in ND are having.
It doesn't have to.
It talked about birth control.
Refuting your silly claim.
That in spite of abstinence education, middle class kids will find out about the proper use of birth control elsewhere.
Which actually shows the professor is an idiot because, in her words, " they’ll learn from their families, their peers, their doctors, and the internet.”...means they are receiving sex education.
If sex ed is not taught by a union schoolteacher is it no longer educational?
Without evidence of how frequently North Dakotans are having sex, it is equally valid to say: The reason the birth rate is so low is that Middle Class white people are ignoring the abstinence only education and effectively using birth control. "
Uh, except the article talks about birth control.
Why are you so dumb, freeper?
Being human necessarily leads to bad choices. The issue is: How bad are the choices and do you learn from your mistakes and work to correct them?
Why should you when you have the majority of the electorate supporting. President whose political party will see to it that you don't suffer the consequences of those bad choices by making other people share the burden.
June Carbone was my brilliant property law professor. Sigh. Well at least her book is reasonably priced unlike some people who charge $95 to instruct, nudge, order autonomy abandonment.
So she's got that going for her.
Red Families vs. Blue Families: Legal Polarization and the Creation of Culture.
Aren't we mostly all purple families?
Why do we do this?
NY has highest abortion rates.
States ranked by rates of abortion among women age 15-19 (pregnancies per thousand):
1.New Jersey (47)
2.New York (46)
3.Maryland (38)
4.Nevada (36)
5.California (36)
6.Hawaii (34)
7.Florida (33)
8.Delaware (31)
9.Connecticut (30)
10.Illinois (27)
Delaware is among the highest in both abortions AND births to teens? Do their high schools have nap time, or what??
Delaware is among the highest in both abortions AND births to teens?
Saw that. Strange.
Stuff White People Like.
New Yorks abortion rates are going to grow geometricly under Andy Cuomo's new law that will allow abortion mills to open up in poorer neighborhoods staffed by non-doctors.
It will be abortionpalooza.
New Yorks abortion rates are going to grow geometricly under Andy Cuomo's new law that will allow abortion mills to open up in poorer neighborhoods staffed by non-doctors.
I suppose the upside is less wards of the state.
How is it that I hit the up arrow and an incomplete version of my comment double-posts? Gotta love Google Blogger sometimes...
Anyway:
"Freder Frederson said...
You have reading comprehension difficulties. the base assumption of the professor's statement is the exact opposite. That in spite of abstinence education, middle class kids will find out about the proper use of birth control elsewhere."
The context of the story says otherwise. There's even one direct mention of poor access to contraceptives and a line even coming out and asserting "... it’s not prophylactics. But it could be petroleum...". Fine, the author and professor could be wrong, but for the third time: I'm responding to what they are saying. So again, aim the criticism at them. My comprehension is accurate; yours is what's off.
It's always been about race and class. No news here.
... it’s not prophylactics. But it could be petroleum...
That line is a throwaway transition. It is not meant to be a statement of fact.
And once again, the professor states exactly the opposite of what you claim.
Teen (15-19) birth rates for non-Hispanic whites - about 20 per thousand. For Blacks and Hispanics - about 50 per thousand.
http://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/aboutteenpreg.htm
Percent of population in North Dakota that is black - 1.3% (U.S. as a whole is 10 times hgher.)
Hispanic or Latino - 2.2% (16.7% nationwide.)
Makes me wonder if the white pregnancy rate isn't higher than the national average. The lowest rates for whites, ranging from 29
to 39 per 1,000, were found in Minnesota, Wisconsin, New York and Vermont.
Maybe it's too cold for the teens to go parking.
Dante:
They think they are escaping the consequences, but their separation from accountability is an illusion. Instead, they are sponsoring corruption, which has an insidious character. This is similar to normalizing behavior constituting evolutionary dysfunction (not limited to homosexual behavior, and principally concerned with unproductive heterosexual behavior), which, despite perceptions to the contrary, produces observable effects after less than a single generation (i.e. intra-generationally).
Renee:
They shouldn't even teach that: your boyfriend shouldn't hit you. They should teach principles, beginning with respect individual dignity, irrespective of gender, color, etc.
The measure of a successful education can be assessed in a boy or girl's ability to extrapolate from general principles to specific knowledge, skills, and behaviors.
I am not a fan of treating symptoms before causes. While it is a profitable model, it does not engender optimal outcomes.
I am also not a fan of coerced paternalism in general and certainly not beyond our formative years. The former representing a miscue, and the latter representing an utter failure.
Renee:
It's interesting that you should mention monopoly. I have read (Karl Denninger at market-ticker.org) that the foundation of our fiscal pressures lies in medical and pharmaceutical monopoly-like behaviors, which are enforced by the government, and which Obamacare will affirm and expand.
As for teaching the nuances of the menstrual cycle, knowledge empowers people to make the right choice before they consider the consequences to be inconvenient. I would also suggest teaching evolutionary principles, specifically fitness, in the same class. People need to develop a an accurate context in order to properly interpret knowledge and manage risk.
Tibore said...
** "The state may prove that white, middle-class teens will probably do OK in the absence of comprehensive sex ed and well-funded reproductive health centers, as “they’ll learn from their families, their peers, their doctors, and the internet.” But that doesn’t change the fact that “the pernicious impact of abstinence-only education is its combination with poverty,” Carbone says." **
Wow. I guess the theme for the day is ruling class condescension, because I can't think of anything more condescending than outright stating that the poor are somehow dumber than the middle class. Less educated, sure, but the implication here wasn't that they make bad choices (which is the reality of things) or that those choices were made due to lack of education, it's that those people are actually immune to instruction and education unless it's of one specific theme.
Yes, folks, that's the condescension inherent in the above quote. That professor is saying that poor, non white people cannot learn abstinence. That's the point she's trying to make.
Assuming that the middle class parents are providing their children with the sex education that the progressives would push on the kids - in spite of the abstinence only sex ed. Of course abstinence remains the only 100% foolproof method of preventing unintended pregnancies with the added bonus of 100% prevention of STDs.
Not taking into acoount the fact that a poor teen 18-20 gets no government benefits if she's single and not a mother. No job no money. Have a kid however and the government falls over itself with the freebies...
Right you are, Freder.
When (as a hypothetical example) hospitals, nationwide, are averaging 15% hospital-induced staph infection rates, and one rural podunk hospital reports a rate around 1%... the other hospitals all say, "So what? It's an outlier!"?????
.
.
Right?
.
.
.
OMFG NO, they all go, "What are they doing right?? TELL US ABOUT IT!!!!!"
... and nothing to do for fun but go to keggers, get drunk, and not remember who you had sex with. (But everyone else knows, and they all know you, and they never ever forget what you did.)
I think that economics does make a difference. If you don't have hope for a better future, having kids provides that for you. It may be counter intuitive and some people just can't seem to get it when I try to explain, probably because they think babies are bad and that they limit your future if you have them too young.
But if you KNOW that you don't have much of a future to limit, babies confer adulthood and hope. No real down-side.
"Yes you are, you are assuming that middle-class white people take abstinence only education to heart, leading to less sex and, therefore, fewer unwanted pregnancies.
Without evidence of how frequently North Dakotans are having sex, it is equally valid to say: The reason the birth rate is so low is that Middle Class white people are ignoring the abstinence only education and effectively using birth control."
Several people have suggested that the kids aren't having sex but I didn't see anyone (in the first half of these comments) say it was because of abstinence education.
Abstinence education may have nothing at all to do with the pregnancy rate... so may actual frequency of sex... but what ever the cause of low pregnancy rates, *clearly* abstinence based sex ed does not result in teenagers getting pregnant.
It's very likely true that teenagers are... not *ignoring* the abstinence portion of sex-ed, but fully capable of understanding the biology of conception and taking the extremely simple measures to avoid it.
The complaint, usually, about "we know you're going to have sex like a rabid bunny" type sex-ed is the assumption and promotion of irresponsibility, not the horrible notion that someone might use a condom.
If "sex ed" includes a fair amount of "you really shouldn't do this because of all of these reasons... pregnancy, AIDS, VD, emotional complications... It's very different from "sex ed" that includes a fair amount of "nothing wrong with doing this, just use condoms and birth control."
Really... at what point is birth control so complicated that it's got to be *taught*?
I'd be interested in checking out the older-teen pregnancy, birth, abortion, and marriage rates.
Marriage among the lower middle (working) class dropped off as good paying manufacturing jobs were offshored and the welfare state got generous. Government made a better daddy than daddy could manage to do.
So, in Fracktopia, are the men and women dating, mating, relating, and tying the knot and starting families because they can afford to do so?
That isn't a tragic result.
So you think the farm kids aren't boinking. Ha ha haaaaaa.
Here's an idea: they don't need a Planned Parenthood clinic to get their birth control. They have it prescribed by their family doctor or OBGYN and have the prescription filled at the pharmacy.
Weird how that works, huh?
Guttmacher just wants a lock on the market. They hate the competition from doctors.
Most pediatricians will prescribe the Pill, 'to regulate the cycle' as people tell others in polite company.
"Oh my daughter is on the Pill, but it is to regulate her cycle"
And I'm wondering, why are you telling me?
BTW I started seeing the doctor alone without my mother present at the age of 14/15, but I wasn't seeing the pediatrician either.
I realize I'm really socially conservative, but the on the other hand I find it creepy with progressive liberally minded parents 'helicoptering' in their teenager's sex life.
then again, a parent should know all the medications their teenager is taking in case of an emergency.
"...but the on the other hand I find it creepy with progressive liberally minded parents 'helicoptering' in their teenager's sex life."
There's deep and unrelenting nausea... and it's not because you're a prude.
Drilling deep and pumping it full of liquid.
Describes fracking and fucking!
Natural gas::queefs
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