She is reported to have been struggling to hold herself together and had been stockpiling food, water and guns in the large home she shared with her 20-year-old son in Connecticut.
Mrs Lanza, 52, was a ‘prepper’ – so called because they are preparing for a breakdown in civilised society – who apparently became obsessed with guns and taught Adam and his older brother, Ryan, how to shoot....
Lanza’s aunt Marsha said Nancy was ‘self reliant’ and that they talked a lot about how she was preparing for the economic meltdown....
As for her son, he was described yesterday as a ‘ghost’ – an autistic genius, according to former school fellows, but also a ‘deeply disturbed’ young man who was so withdrawn that even many of his closest relatives hadn’t set eyes on him for years.
December 16, 2012
"The mother of the loner who massacred 26 pupils and staff at a US primary school may have played a major part in his catastrophic mental breakdown..."
"Friends and family portrayed Adam Lanza’s mother Nancy as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the verge of violent, economic collapse."
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303 comments:
1 – 200 of 303 Newer› Newest»Why does she think those things?
The ongoing misery of the Obama economy.
I guess I'm missing the nexus between fearing economic collapse and taking a bullet in the face from your own son.
I can see the media dissing the "survivalists" though because they're vaguely right wing.
Why are we trying to excuse this little monster?
Or is this the start of some campaign against anybody who says going FORWARD. over the fiscal cliff is going to be no fun?
Nancy Lanza failed at one of the most basic aspects of responsible gun ownership. She had no business keeping weapons in the same house as a troubled young man.
To give an example - it's fine for a single person to keep a loaded pistol in an unlocked drawer next to their bed for self-defense, but it's not okay to do so if one is a parent with small children in the house. Similar principle here. Context matters. She was partially responsible for this crime by indulging her gun nut survivalist fantasies with a crazy son in the house.
"preparing for a breakdown in civilised society"
Indeed, as she raised her son to be a self-fulfilling prophecy ...
Mrs. Lanza no longer has to worry about economic meltdown!
Oh yes anyone who is not mainstream means they are extremists
Thus dangerous
Round them all up these fringe people
This article paints a different picture of the mother.
Otto Fenichel in Psychoanayltic Theory of Neurosis reported that world destruction fantasies might be projections of a schizophrenic about their own ego.
Sounds like she would have fit in just fine here at Althouse blog.
No comment, Althouse, on Obama, who's currently on TV, speaking at a memorial ceremony, and campaigning for gun control at that event?
I think that those who portrayed Obama as cynically faking his emotional response to the massacre are wrong. Obama was, essentially, abandoned by both his parents. Parenting has to be a central issue in his life.
Why are we trying to excuse this little monster?
Not excuse; explain. Understanding why someone did something is not excusing that action. I don't understand why people are incapable of making that distinction.
Some points with this latest revelation is that parents DO have an effect on their children, sometimes quite deleterious, and that enabling a sociopath is very bad idea.
Nobody could have anticipated he would do this. Sure, now it seems obvious, but there are many thousands like him, and we have no way of knowing which ones will do something like this and which ones will never do other than become artists or simply live quiet lives.
In fact, I would bet that every single mass murderer has a psychological doppelganger that is just like them in virtually every way except they never snap like this.
The only feasible answer is to be better prepared when they do. More controlled carry permits. Stringent requirements to get one, but more of them, and every school should have a number of staff members with them everyday they are open.
I would like to know that every time I'm in a crowd, that at least a few good people are qualified to carry a weapon and have it on them. I also want the crazed gunmen to have the same assurance.
"crazed gunmen"
A crazed gunman probably doesn't care if others have guns in his/their path to infamy.
Shiloh. But their path would be shorter.
Crazy people who what to kill lots of people isn't new.
A School Shooting in the Distance
"In the end there were 38 children dead at the school, two teachers and four other adults.
I’m not talking about the horrific shooting in Connecticut today. I’m talking about the worst school murder in American history. It took place in Michigan, in 1927. A school board official, enraged at a tax increase to fund school construction, quietly planted explosives in Bath Township Elementary. Then, the day he was finally ready, he set off an inferno. When crowds rushed in to rescue the children, he drove up his shrapnel-filled car and detonated it, too, killing more people, including himself."
Sounds like she would have fit in just fine here at Althouse blog.
I usually try to be the nice guy, but ARM can really go to hell.
It neither explains his motivation nor his targets. The mother did not express her fatalistic perspective, other than implicitly through prudent planning to mitigate known and likely risks. The son did not run amuck. He expressed a controlled, focused aggression against select targets.
As for economic collapse, the risk is progressive. The federal government is running account deficits which principally devalue the currency and thereby the capital and labor which underlies its value. While this degenerate behavior poses a moderate risk in the foreseeable future, its primary consequence is a progressive uncertainty which sabotages our ability to properly assess and manage risk.
The belief that total societal breakdown is a possibility doesn't seem far fetched to me.
WWII was utter insanity. See the firebombings of Dresden and Hamburg and the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The Nazi death camps. The complete collapse and self-inflicted genocide of Cambodia. The incredible self-immolation of the Soviet Union. The bizarre, endless purges and bloodlettings of Red China.
There's a lot of evidence out there within recent memory to suggest that such things are likely to happen again. Who knows when and where humanity will go completely mad again? I think we can count on it happening.
Renee:
A bomb is by far the least expensive and most effective means to commit mass murder. Hijacking a plane would be a close second (the plane has a fixed number of occupants).
There is only so much you can do with a bad seed.
Her other son is apparantly well-raised, well-adjusted and a rising star in a global corporate tax and accounting consultancy firm. Which don't really add up to a "poor mother" when you take both her kids in consideration.
It happens in other families. Something the "nurture" over "nature" ideologues hate. Surely if 3 kids go on to professional success and respected and loved people and the 4th kid who was adopted is in jail for multiple rapes after dropping out of HS - there must be a "failure" by the parents..
We also have a little too much "narrative" today on the poor "mentally troubled" - and too little on how many of those mentally troubled are deficient as functioning, moral human beings.
What kind of person could kill 20 kids? An autistic one - as autistics are noted for being unable to feel empathy or love for other humans..who could be rocks for all the "poor troubled autistic" cares except they know humans unlike rocks and trees, dish out rewards and punishments that require certain behavior. Otherwise, an autistic could care less if a person lives or dies and in general, are unmoved by other's plights. Also, the reason why autistic are generally friendless and shunned
AReasonableMan said...
Sounds like she would have fit in just fine here at Althouse blog.
Stay classy. Be sure to whine how it's unreasonable for people to remember what an ass you are.
"Shiloh. But their path would be shorter.
Maybe. btw, Timothy McVeigh didn't need any guns.
It all depends on what kind of society you want to live in.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Benjamin Franklin.
Democracy is a work in progress as someone on MSNBC just said gun control is a work in progress ie trying to form that more perfect union.
>
For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal. ~ JFK
Was Nancy a crazed survivalist? And what of young Adam? Tune in tomorrow for the continuing saga, brought to you by Ken-L Ration and Lux for dishes.
Reading this other, more detailed Daily Mail article it says at least five times she was, quote, "obsessed" with guns.
Can anyone find in that story who is being quoted?
Talk about 'pushing a narrative'.
Ah, finally, some violence the MSM will attribute to a tea party rally. I'm sure she must have gone to at least one, no? The NY Times no doubt has top men following the lead.
Cedarford says:There is only so much you can do with a bad seed.
True, but not sharing a house and a bunch of firearms with a bad seed is a good start. I like this part of your comment better: We also have a little too much "narrative" today on the poor "mentally troubled" - and too little on how many of those mentally troubled are deficient as functioning, moral human beings.
ARM says:Sounds like she would have fit in just fine here at Althouse blog.
Harsh, but not completely untrue, depending on the commenter. Sounds like Nancy and Dust Bunny Queen could have been sorority sisters.
"Sounds like she would have fit in just fine here at Althouse blog"
Yes, like her, many of us are also the victims of crazy assholes with an agenda bereft perspective or morality, but who are sure they are good people for having it.
"It neither explains his motivation nor his targets"
The only one I could think of, was that he knew he was such a pathetic coward, he couldn't pick on someone his own size even with his ammo. If he try to murder random people at a gas station, he knew someone would be bigger then him to take him down. Which makes you wonder, that he really wasn't crazy considering he killed himself.
Shiloh. It all depends on what kind of society you want
I presume you are not opposed to fertilizer.
Nancy had a burden too heavy for a single woman. Unfortunately for her and us, her story ended badly.
"And we are all mortal."
Interesting JFK gave his American U. commencement address (5) mos. before he was assassinated.
Renee said...
"It neither explains his motivation nor his targets".
The only one I could think of, was that he knew he was such a pathetic coward, he couldn't pick on someone his own size even with his ammo.
How about this one: media attention?
Not cool, AReasonableMan. This proves that you are not. Shame on you.
Vicki from Pasadena
If he was doing this out of evil then he is in hell, it's not like he is enjoying the media attention there. Hell isn't a place where you enjoy things.
If he was truly mentally ill, and couldn't understand his actions, I doubt he would be enjoying them as well if he wasn't in hell.
If there is no after-life, he doesn't exist, hence unable to enjoy the media attention.
"fertilizer"
The bomb consisted of about 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of ammonium nitrate and nitromethane, a motor-racing fuel.
er ammonium nitrate, a high-nitrogen fertilizer!
Let freedom ring and do unto others as they would do unto you ...
>
Not to worry, as the Dept. of Homeland Security will keep you safe.
Once again, we are dependent on foreign press to learn about our own country. Pitiful.
She was complicit in the fact that she had a fascination with guns, kept them in the same home she shared with a disturbed son and actually facilitated his proficiency in using the guns. That is not normal, or responsible.
Who knows what fears she exacerbated in her son with the breakdown of society scenarios she was stockpiling for, if that is true. I also read that no one was ever invited inside the home, she would always come out to meet friends.
Inga, Maybe at most people thought she was a hoarder. Not a survivalist hoarder, but a shopping hoarder with 2000 bags of stuff from Target.
Renee,
Truly creative people, particularly artists, look upon their works as their piece of immortality.
A deranged, troubled mind who only sees a painful, empty future might look upon media attention as giving his life some significance and providing him with his piece of immortality.
That need for notoriety would also explain the scale of the crime.
"may" is Alhouse's favorite word. Damn the facts, full speculation ahead.
Funny, coming from a Lefty.
shiloh said...
"preparing for a breakdown in
civilised society"
Indeed, as she raised her son to be a self-fulfilling prophecy ...
Mrs. Lanza no longer has to worry about economic meltdown!
The rest of us, however, do.
Again, the little asshole thinks all of this is funny.
But, then, it's always all about him.
I like John C Dvorak's idea better. Be a meta-prepper.
Join all the prepper groups, get on the mailing lists and so on.
Then, when the apocalypse comes, Take your gun and go rob all the preppers.
Saves time and money and keeps you from having to fill your home with prepper stuff.
More helpful tips at www.noagendashow.com
The best podcast in the universe!
John Henry
That "may" is from the Daily Mail article, not Althouse.
From my first comment, above, it's apparent the Daily Mail may be cutting journalistic corners to push a narrative.
That's really sad.
Nobody could have anticipated he would do this. Sure, now it seems obvious, but there are many thousands like him, and we have no way of knowing which ones will do something like this and which ones will never do other than become artists or simply live quiet lives.
bagoh20 gets it.
Thirteen thousand Americans are intentionally murdered each year. If the aim is to save lives, we would be better off concentrating on the big numbers rather than the occasional killing of a dozen or two.
Here's an incredible essay by a mom with a child with mental illness:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html?
Not that I care for Huff Post, but read this and consider what it must be like to walk in those shoes.
Oswald sought significance in his life, so he shot a president.
As Gerard Posner theorized in "Case Closed", the conspiracy theories came about in large part because people couldn't reconcile that a little smudge like Oswald could kill a president and not be a part of something more significant and sinister.
Along with rank opportunism, into that void went all negative fantasies about the political opponents of those who were alleging conspiracy.
Sound familiar?
Empathy. Those with Aspergers Syndrome, (which I believe it was said he suffered from), though they tend to be mentally acute, tend to lack an emotional connections to others, . They thus, make bad decisions in social situations, simply because they don't realize the emotional effects of their actions. Now. Take that person and isolate them, add some violent video games (where he can practice destroying his oppressors) and some denial from those around him and you get a very very dangerous situation.
So are they abandoning the claim that the kid had a mental disease-- or are those now able to be transmitted by power of suggestion?
Not exactly a well sourced portrait of Nancy. The two sources are (1) her gardener, who thinks it's weird that she did not invite him in and (2) Nancy's Aunt Marsha, who we know nothing about.
Nor is a well argued case. I fear economic collapse and thus I own some gold. I have no guns because I don't think they will help if the collapse comes.
Plus I get no alimony.
People who really are planning for economic collapse should not rely on alimony for support.
Or mainstream newspapers for information.
There has been on ongoing stream of misreporting regarding this tragedy. Why should anyone believe this new 'story' won't be slow walked back like so many others have been?
I'm with you @John. I think we ought to take it slow until we know more.
"Then, when the apocalypse comes, Take your gun and go rob all the preppers."
As in the case of this woman, a prepper's first obsession is being ready to kill you metapreppers at first sight after TSHTF.
"I own some gold. I have no guns because I don't think they will help if the collapse comes. "
If I send you my email address could I get your home address or at least where your gold lives...just in case.
Here’s a different take: Mass murderers often not mentally ill, but seeking revenge, experts say
And, as Medea knew, killing children is the ultimate revenge.
I think living alone with such a disturbed son may have deepened whatever fissures were already in her personality. Folie a deux....It's just such staggeringly bad judgement instructing him in the use of firearms and giving him easy access to them......This is one of the most hateful crimes ever, but the people who did it are vague and unformed. They're too wispy to be proper villians. This should be the crime of an archfiend, not of a disturbed child and his fatuous mother. That such ineffectual people should inflict such lasting damage on so many people is another nightmare.
Sorry Bags it does not live with me. There are safer ways.
"...kept them in the same home she shared with a disturbed son and actually facilitated his proficiency in using the guns. That is not normal, or responsible."
Other than the failure to see the future or understand just how disturbed her son actually was, the worst possible thing that any parent can do, who chooses to have guns in the house, is to NOT train the children to use them safely. Even very young children should be taught to handle the weapon safely (same as kitchen knives) and when old enough to physically manage it, taught to shoot.
Anything else is the worst sort of irresponsibility.
Ahh David, I was just gonna keep an eye on it for you. Maybe trade a few grams for beer and ice, but if you get there early, we can enjoy it together. I'll let you shoot some zombies with my ammo.
Aunt Marsha, who said Nancy was a "prepare," lives in Crystal Lake, Il. She was very happy to give a media interview, even though she admitted she had not seen Adam since he was 4 years old. Probably had not seen Nancy since then either, methinks. In other words she is a distant relative who rarely saw Nancy's family and had a email-facebook kind of relationship.
Not much of a source for such sweeping conclusion.
Of course there is her landscaper, who Nancy first me in a bar but would not invite into her house.
This crap article is now front paged on Drudge.
She was complicit in the fact that she had a fascination with guns, kept them in the same home she shared with a disturbed son and actually facilitated his proficiency in using the guns. That is not normal, or responsible.
I believe it's called shared culpability. Teaching a disturbed person how to use guns and allowing him access to guns is not a good survival tactic. If you must have guns around a person whom you can't trust 100%, keep the guns locked up in a safe with the combination not written down anywhere.
I just ordered the gun Bags. But not for you. You are welcome anytime. We can tell Western Pennsylvania stories.
Renee - thanks for that link - I was trying to recall enough detail about that incident to do a Google on it - where the school board member blew up the new school.
In our city, a school building referendum was just passed - two of the school board members were against it. Note to myself - call local Police Department tomorrow and tell them they need to continuously monitor the movements of those two school board members - you can never be too safe at times like this, right?
Well IF this is true, that she was a 'survivalist' of the Terminator type, well it is ironic she shared her goods with a disturbed young man.
Did she help make him that way?
We will see how the 'facts' stand scrutiny over time. Maybe she was a survivalist, maybe not. Maybe he was nuts, maybe not.
What we don't need is impassioned guessing and making wrong decisions based on those half-truths, lies, and guesses.
THANKS Dianna for this link - it's been filling my inbox all day as I am an educator and - yes - this essay reminds of all - in a beautiful way - how parents of these shooters and future shooters need real help.
Diana L. Sullivan, CPA said...
Here's an incredible essay by a mom with a child with mental illness:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html?
Not that I care for Huff Post, but read this and consider what it must be like to walk in those shoes.
12/16/12 9:03 PM
The people who say that it's not a "surprise" when someone shoots up a mall or theater or school or commit suicide... of course it's a surprise or they'd have tried to do something. There are odd people all around us, marginally functioning people, angry people... and almost to a person not a single one of them ever does anything truly bad. Nor do angsty, depressed people kill themselves.
And then someone does and it's all recriminations... they should have known that the angry, unhappy person was going to undertake the bloodiest possible suicide... or even just a regular suicide... and everyone should have known. Certainly the NEIGHBORS all knew it was about to happen so how could the parents, how could the mother not know?
This is all very stupid, but I suppose we're compelled to do it. Sort of like preppers, huh. Survivalists. Horders. We're compelled to figure out how to make ourselves safe by guarding against the unthinkable.
The difference being that this version of prepper paranoia can result in laws and oppression for people who are, oh, autistic, or unhappy, or who prepare for the fall of civilization without bothering anyone else in the least.
There has been on ongoing stream of misreporting regarding this tragedy.
John: Amen.
It's a date, David. I hear next week is the end of the world, but I don't think I'm quite ready. I have a crossword puzzle I want to finish first, but I'll be there, eventually.
Mommy was such a skilled Prepper that she was ready to deal with anything.
Except four bullets to the face.
Peter
I have not been watching the coverage at all, but I have seen a number of commercials by the networks that are essentially selling the damned tragedy like a Superbowl. It's gross.
YES!
Permanently imprison ALL mentally ill people.
And not just the violent schizophrenic either. Everyone with AUTISM, anxiety, depression, OCD, ADD, Tourette’s, Drug and alcohol addiction, Anorexia/Bulemia, Any serious Phobia, and anyone who has panic attacks.
And, after that, we’ll get started on the retards.
Then, the physically deformed.
Then, the gypsies.
Then, … oh, you get the idea.
So now anyone who stockpiles any food or does any disaster prep will be labeled a freak by the leftwing collective. Check.
...Nancy was ‘self reliant’...
Nancy was getting alimony from Peter in excess of $12,000 per month. How is that "self-reliant?"
60 minutes cut in with Pastor Obama. That was weird.
Renee said...
"It neither explains his motivation nor his targets"
The only one I could think of, was that he knew he was such a pathetic coward, he couldn't pick on someone his own size even with his ammo. If he try to murder random people at a gas station, he knew someone would be bigger then him to take him down. Which makes you wonder, that he really wasn't crazy considering he killed himself.
Or in his sick, twisted, insane little world, he wanted to see what it really felt like to be the aggressor, rather than then victim. Children make for easy targets and what better place to get to them than a school where they are sitting ducks.
Lydia:
Killing children is indeed the ultimate revenge. It is an act which confiscates a man and woman's only expressive investment that transcends generations. An investment that requires up to twenty years or more of our lives to fully realize its potential. Assuming that human life, preservation of its dignity and value, is the goal, then there is no greater investment made by men and women during their lives. Everything else is tangential or contributory to this one goal.
Bagoh @8:02 - you got it.
So now anyone who stockpiles any food or does any disaster prep will be labeled a freak by the leftwing collective.
The leftwing collective already considers anyone who doesn't conform to their thoughts, actions and dress codes a freak.
There has been on ongoing stream of misreporting regarding this tragedy.
Wait -- you mean the killer wasn't Ryan Lanza?
Now that the woman's had her brains blown out by her son, let's destroy her character. It's not like she can dispute it.
n.n. - I suspect 90% of the commetariat will condemn you for saying that.
Probably a total aside, but if she actually trained her kid in how to use the guns, it explains something that bugged me, which was how damned efficient he was. In most mass shootings you get a lot of dead people, but also a lot of wounded who survive.
Not this time.
Mark - it means his mom taught him how to go for a clean head shot which makes me even more horrified.
We need to view this as partly a public mental health issue, but it's also a gun issue.
It's probably a good idea to talk about making some kinds of weapons that are legal now, illegal.
Really, phx.
Which sort do we get to keep legal because they can't be used to kill people.
(No, that wasn't a question.)
Which sort do we get to keep legal because they can't be used to kill people.
That's not for me to decide.
phx,
The gun he had was already illegal, since he was not allowed to have any legally. It was illegal to take a gun where he took it. And on a side note, it was illegal to shoot a bunch of children. There is no law that could have prevented this other than one that required the school staff to be armed. That would actually work, but do you think that's what will come out of this lesson?
Even if God came down on a surfboard and told us that's what we need to do, it would not happen, because we either don't really care enough, or we are too stupid as a group to really take the action needed. Instead we will do more of what does not work, and it will happen again and again. More children will die for simple political correctness - a foul business if there ever was one.
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military.” ― William S. Burroughs
LOL William Burroughs.
LOL phx
bagoh20 is correct - all the guns Lanza used were illegal in his hands. The one time Lanza tried to purchase a gun for himself, the law worked as intended and the purchase was denied because Lanza wasn't willing to wait 14 days.
It's possible the widespread legality of such guns has a negative influence on the culture apart from the immediate random mass shootings. I imagine there are ways of looking at the affect of advanced modern weaponry on our culture, is it making us violent?
I think that deserves to be talked about. I don't think anyone's saying making certain weaponry illegal or putting tighter restrictions on them is a panacea.
No matter what you do to protect yourself, even arming teachers, you aren't going to be totally safe. That doesn't mean you can't make saner decisions.
And your political leaders of both sides will again only be willing to do what has not worked, what will not work, and what assures more dead children. They will fight for that with great passion and rhetoric, and express all along their desire to protect those many innocents whom they doom in favor of another round of feckless hand wringing.
Protecting what you care about sometimes means you have to get off your cushy chair and hurt some bad guys, get your hands dirty, and break the illusion of a kumbaya utopia and accept that safety means a willingness to use violence when needed.
Lanza seems to have been more schizoid than Aspergers. In retrospect, of course, which did Mom little good.
Mom seemed at least aware that she had exceeded her ability to care for him.
Again we are left with the spectre of no options for a mother with a scary mentally ill son. Here is where libertarianism crashes on the shores of reality.
Stop believing the press...they are getting sooo many things wrong.
Pogo, Goedel proved mathematically that any logically consistent system fails to cover all possible real-world events.
That isn't a reason to abandon logic for madness, particularly in the face of madness itself.
"Even if God came down on a surfboard and told us that's what we need to do, it would not happen"
Assuming there is a god ...
Supposedly god said to Oral Roberts to raise $8 million by March, 1987 or HE would "call him home."
The message was probably garbled in transmission :D and actually was god will call him at home.
Can you hear me now ...
Indeed, god works in mysterious ways ...
"That isn't a reason to abandon logic for madness, particularly in the face of madness itself."
Explain.
Alex:
Any principles we assume must have internal consistency and be mutually reconcilable. It is the latter condition which causes the most grief for people who are authentically acting in good faith.
Of course, that criteria can be arbitrarily met depending on the principles we consider for its definition, especially when they are selective or otherwise ambiguous.
phx, put your animistic beliefs aside for the moment,and check out Renee's citation to mass killing that took place in 1927.
Your public policy suggestion will unwittingly open the door to bomb makers.
IF (and that's a big "if"—we're talking the Daily Mail here, jesus christ, Althouse, they're like the Enquirer of the UK, but I guess you'll link to anything you see linked on Drudge), this story about her being a "prepper" is true, it shows how any stupid assholes who reads World Net Daily can become a murderer. I hold Joseph Farah and his birther ilk just as responsible as the shooter himself and his deranged mother. Sick. All of them.
n.n - some people will have a problem with your detached approach, they want rampant emotionalism in the face of tragedy.
Zach - you're a fucking sick puppy.
barribarri said...
YES!
Permanently imprison ALL mentally ill people.
And not just the violent schizophrenic either. Everyone with AUTISM, anxiety, depression, OCD, ADD, Tourette’s, Drug and alcohol addiction, Anorexia/Bulemia, Any serious Phobia, and anyone who has panic attacks.
And, after that, we’ll get started on the retards.
Then, the physically deformed.
Then, the gypsies.
Then, … oh, you get the idea.
================
Slippery slope arguments sound like sage wisdom to college students, but ultimately they are stupid and reductio ad absurdum arguments taken as gospel - used by people that have no argument against a present action. So without any facts, they then go into a factless ungrounded future to "prove the danger". Essentially do one thing they disagree with - like US troops killing terrorists - and they cannot argue on the right of terrorists to be free to butcher as they please - but hating the military they slowly pontificate that "once troops start killing, it is a slippery slope right to where the Americans are killing their own people or bayoneting babies - JUST LIKE THE NAZIS!!"
Its garbage.
We have a problem with dangerous psychotics with access to guns and society sometimes even blocked by law from having parents or medical caregivers telling relevant others in authority about the menace.
shiloh quoted:
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Benjamin Franklin."
One could argue that this quotation is more on the side of people who don't want to limit others' freedom.
As terrible as this incident is, note that, once again the crazy person performed his perfidy in a gun free zone. It's not accidental that homicidal nuts don't go to the police station to do their crimes. As the saying goes, they're crazy, not stupid.
"That's not for me to decide."
Mighty convenient that is.
As many people have pointed out... let's outlaw already illegal guns, that will solve the problem. Sure it will.
As for the notion that a culture of guns makes us violent, or video games, or violent movies, or whatever it is makes us violent... that's not even a given. Our communication is far better than it ever has been, of course. We even hear about the school massacre in China. Isn't technology grand?
Examine the tragedies that have occurred across the world and in countries with greater regulations and that don't have a "gun culture" at all. Hello, Norway? China?
So let's outlaw guns that are illegal and let's not bother our pretty little heads with deciding just where the line should be drawn between allowing guns at all, either hunting rifles or pistols or "automatics", because that's just too hard as there is no logical place to draw that line and I'd far rather emote the correct way in public than actually present what my "solution" would entail.
No?
shiloh quoted:
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Benjamin Franklin."
One could argue that this quotation is more on the side of people who don't want to limit others' freedom.
As terrible as this incident is, note that, once again the crazy person performed his perfidy in a gun free zone. It's not accidental that homicidal nuts don't go to the police station to do their crimes. As the saying goes, they're crazy, not stupid.
"Its garbage.
We have a problem with dangerous psychotics with access to guns and society sometimes even blocked by law from having parents or medical caregivers telling relevant others in authority about the menace."
I would agree that it's a problem that someone deemed dangerous, even if only to themselves, who is clearly unwell, can not be institutionalized, at least not in any practical way.
But I do disagree about slippery slopes. I think that we ought to always be concerned with slippery slopes. If we change it so that it is easier for parents and judges to "commit" people who need to be committed, we need to be thinking about the slippery slope and try the best we possibly can to make sure that there are checks and balances and oversight and if it's no longer a case where someone has to commit murder before being "locked up" that we're not imprisoning people who are *grumpy*.
And even then, cedarford, the sourcing on this story is suspect and we don't know that *this* person was dangerous in any apparent way.
The chances that someone won't shoot up a McDonald's, gas a movie theater, or run a car through a playground aren't likely to be reduced, anyway.
Little causes Cedarford to pop a raging boner like the prospect of putting people in camps.
Everything causes Zachary Paul Sire to pop a boner.
Hey Zach, since you think it's ok to blame some unrelated media figure for crimes that person didn't commit, then I'm going to blame you and your employers in the gay porn industry for the uptick in HIV and other sexually-transmitted diseases!
I love this new game!
If I may ask, what does the handle Mutaman mean? Mechanics Union?
Because if it does, my brake light started going on so I backed up and braked a bunch of times, and I know the fluid is fine. It stopped but it still blinks. Plus there's a rattle developed when stopped in drive at a light but not when in idle and it's bumming me out.
And also my brother said and my new mechanic agreed it really is true you should change your oil every three months whether or not you drive at all. I looked at the oil I have for my French fries and thought, you know, that does look pretty bad.
My gp doctor's office called and told me to come in a day apart from the new mechanic calling and telling me to bring the truck in, on account of the oil conversation. Is it normal for doctors and mechanics to boss people around like that?
If Mutaman refers to mechanic's union, can you answer these nagging questions please?
cryptical said...
“After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military.” ― William S. Burroughs
Burroughs used one of his guns to shoot his wife to death.....
Alex:
Without objective standards there will be uncertainty and progressive dysfunction. However, despite this, I do suggest three classifications of behaviors: normalization, tolerance, and rejection. I implicitly recognize the emotional factor which influences, if not directs, many people's thinking process and actions. I recognize that both natural and artificial processes are chaotic. That is to say bounded with an intermediate behavior described by stochastic processes. It is the latter which models emotional responses, among other things, and ensures our lives remain "interesting."
Anyway, emotions are welcome. We are all human, and while that aspect of our nature is paradoxically helpful and harmful, it is also a defining characteristic of humanity and individuals. It is the irrational, variable component, which along with our rational, associative minds, makes us unique and defines authentic diversity.
The goal is to identify and enforce an optimally stable system. The challenge with dynamically stable systems is to ensure that the inherent and forced variability does not cause uncontrollable oscillations and lead it to its failure either marginally or in whole.
Sounds like Nancy Lanza was under the influence of right-wing media.
Imus is going to be insufferable this week. He's huge into victim porn.
His wife will ascribe it to toxins in the environment.
I have a crossword puzzle I want to finish first, but I'll be there, eventually.
It helps to have a mind for it.
Today was one of the last in the file transferred from the old hard drive :-( A Saturday puzzle. So hardest of all the week. Expect misdirection.
Clue: Chain with links _ _ _ _
The beginning letter is the ending letter of a sixth century date, so that would be either i or v, most likely I think, that is, a four letter word that starts with i or v.
chain with links, four letters, starts with i or v.
metal chain
paper chain
dna
jewelry
ship chain
restaurant chain
golf links
sausage chain
ihop ding
Sounds like Nancy Lanza was under the influence of right-wing media.
Sounds like LoafingOaf is back to trolling again. You had a moment or two of reasonable clarity after the Benghazi debacle, but I guess being an uninteresting douchebag is just too tempting.
lol. Isn't this great? Now even thinking that Obama's economy will fail, or trying to be self-reliant, is grounds for criminality in the left-wing world.
Enjoy the decline, America!
You know we have a need to pathologize and blame the parents when stuff like this happens.
Let's transfer the curse to the goat and send it out into the desert to die. Or to become a wild goat. Hat tip to Azazel.
You know we have a need to pathologize and blame the parents when stuff like this happens.
Let's transfer the curse to the goat and send it out into the desert to die. Or to become a wild goat. Hat tip to Azazel.
n.n said...
It neither explains his motivation nor his targets. The mother did not express her fatalistic perspective, other than implicitly through prudent planning to mitigate known and likely risks. The son did not run amuck. He expressed a controlled, focused aggression against select targets.
As for economic collapse, the risk is progressive. The federal government is running account deficits which principally devalue the currency and thereby the capital and labor which underlies its value. While this degenerate behavior poses a moderate risk in the foreseeable future, its primary consequence is a progressive uncertainty which sabotages our ability to properly assess and manage risk
That just flew over the heads of every liberal on this site.
Or as Robert Cook would aver, " That's just your opinion."
Chip Ahoy said...
I have a crossword puzzle I want to finish first, but I'll be there, eventually.
It helps to have a mind for it.
Today was one of the last in the file transferred from the old hard drive :-( A Saturday puzzle. So hardest of all the week. Expect misdirection.
Clue: Chain with links _ _ _ _
The beginning letter is the ending letter of a sixth century date, so that would be either i or v, most likely I think, that is, a four letter word that starts with i or v.
chain with links, four letters, starts with i or v.
metal chain
paper chain
dna
jewelry
ship chain
restaurant chain
golf links
sausage chain
ihop ding
Links is probably the real hint. Things linked as in a chain.
Like islands.
Plus there's a rattle developed when stopped in drive at a light but not when in idle and it's bumming me out.
That's your motor mounts giving out. It'll cost about a grand to replace them, but the trick is to find a mechanic who'll do it for someone who doesn't own a used car dealership.
Fascinating how trolls like Oaf will quote the most moronic Lefty boilerplate and think they're being witty.
shiloh said...
Assuming there is a god ...
There is a God. The little asshole is merely some phony folksy's sockpuppet.
Indeed, god works in mysterious ways ...
Look who He inflicted on us.
What I've learned so far:
1. Teachers and the principal need to be armed and trained.
2. The US approach to mental illness is long past due for change.
Friends and family portrayed Adam Lanza’s mother Nancy as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the verge of violent, economic collapse.
Actually this sounds like a pretty good description of half a dozen or more of the Althouse lemmings.
I can see the media dissing the "survivalists" though because they're vaguely right wing.
Yes, sort of in the same way that the Ku Klux Klan is "vaguely" racist.
What I've learned so far:
1. Teachers and the principal need to be armed and trained.
Add Pogo's name to the list of mentally deficient Althouse lemmings.
Remember when blaming the victim was uncool?
"Who knows what fears she exacerbated in her son with the breakdown of society scenarios she was stockpiling for, if that is true."
-- Who knows what desires she exacerbated in her rapist with the short skirt she was wearing, if that is true.
Oh, wait. That would be a horrible thing to say and be rightly called idiotic by all right-thinking people.
Why the heck is everyone being an idiot about this?
Pogo, I meant that Libertarianism is the best philosophy of governance that has any traction (as little as it does have) even if it provides no answers for what to actually do about the Adam Lanzas of the world.
Frankly, short of some dystopia where the state evaluates everyone's mental condition and doles out "rights" based on those evaluations, nothing would have caught that young man with his mom running interference for him (which I believe we can assume from the limited data we have.)
It's really, really hard to regulate Black Swan situations.
"Frankly, short of some dystopia where the state evaluates everyone's mental condition"
This is why libertarians are hard to take seriously.
There are options that do not require abuse.
Refusing to allow families some option other than waiting for their child to destroy himself or others is cruel, and dystopian itself.
Black swan?
Families can see this coming a mile away. Not the specific details, but they know someone is going to die.
And who said anything about regulation? What about medical options?
Pogo said...
"Frankly, short of some dystopia where the state evaluates everyone's mental condition"
This is why libertarians are hard to take seriously.
There are options that do not require abuse.
Maybe you should identify one such solution rather than merely assuring us they exist and using that to cast aspersions on others.
phx, put your animistic beliefs aside for the moment
animistic beliefs = the belief the American people should vigorously debate the meaning of the 2nd amendment, particularly in the context of modern weaponry used in mass killings.
"Links is probably the real hint. Things linked as in a chain.
Like islands."
Or sausages. Does IHOP serve those little link sausages with its breakfasts?
"Links is probably the real hint. Things linked as in a chain.
Like islands."
Or sausages. Does IHOP serve those little link sausages with its breakfasts?
Matthew, I'll simply repeat what Pogo said, it was that good.
"Black swan?
Families can see this coming a mile away. Not the specific details, but they know someone is going to die."
12/17/12 7:45 AM
Inga: And in most of these cases, things are reported. The Va. Tech shooter? The bureaucracy failed us; in this case, yet again, the school failed those children by not providing adequate protection, either in the form of police or physical security.
Each time, the government fails us, and the solution is to write new laws we won't enforce to stop problems we won't admit to having.
Adam reminds me a bit of my brother. No one in my family has spoken to him for over twenty years. He wasn't a genus, but he was extremely smart. He ran away from home around the age of 16. He dropped out of school and got his GED, got a full ride scholarship to Purdue, but couldn't handle the social interaction. My Dad tried to get help for him repeatedly, but there just wasn't any help to be had especially back then.
He's been homeless off and on, I think the longest was for over a year. We've all tried at one time or another to help him, to talk to him, but he refuses all contact. I know it was only after he left that my parents began locking our doors at night. There was a feeling that he might come back and kill us all.
My sister did get him a job as a dough maker at Pizza Hut. It's perfect for him since it begins very early in the morning and he doesn't have to interact with to many people. The other employees are afraid of him though,. the early shift waitresses are especially uncomfortable, but he is good at his job, reliable, so the managers keep him on.
If he were ever to do something horrible, God forbid, I think many people who know him would say they weren't be surprised.
I know my brother sn't autistic, and I don't think Adam Lanza was either. I've been around plenty of autistic kids and they have a look in their eye that is hard to miss. At one time my brother was funny, extremely good looking, had tons of friends. Who knows what sent him off into such a lonely, isolated existence? He's about 53 now, never been married, no girlfriend, no kids. Just sad.
And Matthew, what's idiotic is having a disturbed son in the home with a mother who didn't understand the danger of keeping multiple weapons and actually teaching that disturbed son how to shoot them. Your analogy is also wrong, think for Christ sake, disturbed son, weapons , access, training, fear of some apocalyptic future, you wouldn't be able to see the handwriting on the wall?
Each time, the government fails us
I don't see those as "the government fails us." No system of security is perfect, by government or anyone else.
Saying government failed us makes it sound like we're all victims. I refuse to be a victim. Someday some psychopath may murder me but it won't be because the government failed me.
And yet, the government completely and totally failed her every step of the way. Yet, instead of biting the bullet and accepting that the government needs to stop harping on unrelated issues, you decide to instead dig in and focus on whether or not someone has legally owned guns.
The issue is mental health. He needed help; instead, the solution seems to be to ignore that, and to lard up some more regulations that we'll completely ignore except for a few days after each tragedy.
The woman made a mistake; yet when a woman makes a mistake by walking through a bad neighborhood, we all agree it is bad form to tsk, tsk her for exposing herself to the danger of being raped. Be consistent and don't simply wait to demonize people for behaviors you dislike. Unless you -want- to be thought of as a hypocrite.
Phx: The government -is- failing these people. In almost every case, red flags that Pogo is talking about are raised and ignored. Each regulation, law and rule doesn't matter when the government is incompetent.
Mental health is one issue. But these are multi-faceted events when it comes to what issues are at play.
Access to modern weaponry is another important issue.
@Marshal
Involuntary commitment.
Which is anathema to libertarians, who demand families must wait until someone is injured or dies in order to do something. That's a state function they seem to support, reluctantly.
My God Matthew, you double down on ridiculous. The Mother's "mistake" cost 26 precious lives, not a rape to a foolish woman. There is no comparison.
How did the government fail her? We don't know yet what treatment she sought for her son.
Matthew I understand what you are saying and I'm not defending incompetence. You are right, there are some incompetent bureaucrats out there.
But I also believe that even when red flags are raised there isn't always a clear-cut course of action that needs to be taken. Sometimes no matter what we do (or the government does) there's a serious risk involved.
I don't expect the government to fix this problem perfectly. I'd like them to get better at it, I'm sure we both do. But I also want to think about more restrictions on the availability of modern weaponry.
The government failed the school. From the reports, if I recall, the person who did the shooting was known to have several severe mental problems, even before the shooting spree.
Phx: Then find a case where the modern weaponry are legally obtained and used. This man killed someone and stole their weapons; the Va. Tech shooter bought his weapons because, despite the government having him flagged as unable to buy them, didn't bother to complete the paperwork.
In each case, the government failed and so we have no idea if our restrictions would work, were they applied correctly.
Did this kid have a job? Who bought and paid fo all the ammo? 30 round clips for a weapon of war?
Pogo said...
@Marshal
Involuntary commitment.
Which is anathema to libertarians, who demand families must wait until someone is injured or dies in order to do something. That's a state function they seem to support, reluctantly
In what circumstances?
And Matthew are you saying Adam Lanza killed someone and stole their weapon? Or are you talking about some other mass murderer?
I was pretty sure the current story is that Lanza stole his mother's weapons, killed her with her own weapons and then stormed the school. So... yes?
How do you know she didn't buy the weapon he used to kill the children for him? She took him to shooting ranges for pity sake.
Then again, reports currently say she had 5, 4 or 3 weapons registered to her, with her husband having anywhere from zero to 2, so, it may be preemptive to assume where he got the weapons from. In addition, ABC, at least, says the rumors that she took him shooting are unsubstantiated at this time.
As of yesterday: "Investigators have also learned his mother, Nancy Lanza, visited a gun range on multiple occasions, but they have not determined whether her son was with her during those visits, the spokesperson said."
Have anything more recent?
How did he become so proficient in using the weapons?
Also as of last night: "FNC’s Mike Tobin reports that Adam Lanza had visited a gun range as well. There is no confirmation that Nancy Lanza took her son to the gun range or that he fired a gun while he was there. It is also not confirmed whether they were there together."
So... the fact he went there, and she didn't bring him there, and that he may not have even fired a shot while there, has been transformed into the hysterics we see in this thread, unless, again, there's something more recent.
Inga: By shooting at small, defenseless children, I imagine he had plenty of time to figure it out.
Inga said...
Did this kid have a job? Who bought and paid fo all the ammo?
probably alimony
Also, believe it or not, using a loaded gun doesn't take a lot of skill at very close ranges against people who can't fight back. Lanza -may- have been taught to shoot. But we don't know yet. So, it would be wise to hold off until you know, lest you end up looking foolish jumping to conclusions.
" By shooting at small, defenseless children, I imagine he had plenty of time to figure it out."
12/17/12 8:35 AM
Matthew, that's a a pretty fucking sick thing to say.
Matthew and you risk looking foolish and heartless trying to defend some Libertaraian wet dream of complete freedom from government.
Inga: You asked a stupid question. The shooter was not doing any feats of amazing skill. He walked into an undefended building filled with defenseless people and children and began shooting. It's horrific and terrible; he had all the time in the world. This is the reality of what happened; even if he -did- spend time at a range, it wouldn't have mattered in this scenario.
Except, I'm not. I'm explicitly saying that we aren't even using our currently existing regulations and resources. If we had, the Va. Tech shooter would never have been able to legally arm. I'm fine for supporting things that will work; simply making guns harder for citizens to get, however, has done nothing to stop these mass killings. Enforcing existing laws is hardly a libertarian wet dream.
Matthew you are giving stupid answers and trying to make stupid comparisons, you are overreaching.
Inga. I know your stupidity gets in the way of understanding, but Matthew is in no way defending what you assert.
Michael, go straight to hell, do not stop, pass go.
How did he become so proficient in using the weapons?
Matthew is saying it doesn't take a highly proficient shooter to wreak havoc at an elementary school.
Also, are these types of shootings common in inner cities where guns are prevalent, or are they just in safe, white enclaves where people have fooled themselves into thinking that a gun-free zone makes them safer?
I understand what Matthew is saying, but isn't it strange how many here were saying what a great shot he was only yesterday?
So what is it gun lovers, great shot? Or no experience slaughtering 26 people needed?
Hell if I know; I never saw anyone say that yesterday (then again, I wasn't about here much yesterday.)
Inga, it might be educational to find out WHEN she took him to range. If it was in the last couple of months thats one thing. If it was several years ago thats entirely different. Oh, and knives, revolvers and bolt action rifles are also "weapons of war".
I understand what Matthew is saying, but isn't it strange how many here were saying what a great shot he was only yesterday?
Must've missed those declarations.
He couldn't hv stabbed his way through the door, could he have? Do you need a 30 round clip to kill a deer?
Inga is right. No one has ever attacked children in a school with a knife.
It seems like we should be looking at magazine capacity.
Inga is right. No one has ever attacked children in a school with a knife.
And there's the difference: twenty-two wounded children vs. twenty dead children.
We have a lot of empirical evidence over the past 4 decades to know that these types of incidents are mostly carried out by a specific type of person ... young, white males detached from society in one form or the other.
So, we can ban guns, but what then will young white males detached from society turn to in order to exact revenge?
Inga is saying the mom enabled this with her gun purchases and ammo purchases and taking him to the range. just say it Inga.
Inga said...
I understand what Matthew is saying, but isn't it strange how many here were saying what a great shot he was only yesterday?
Off the meds again.
It seems like we should be looking at magazine capacity.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but how long was Lanza at the school before any police got there?
Ah, so if the shooter had only wounded these kids, no one would bat an eye?
And there's the difference: twenty-two wounded children vs. twenty dead children.
Two things: The Oregon mall shooter stole the gun used, and he was (supposedly) stopped by another citizen with concealed-carry.
Other than confiscating all guns nationwide, how would new gun regulations deal with the problem?
How did he become so proficient in using the weapons?
Inga, unfortunately you derailed your back and forth with this blatantly ignorant statement.
We don't have all the facts as of yet so uninformed opinions are rampant, but it would appear that this evil soul was mentally ill and had a mother that liked guns. The fact that the mother couldn't see the trouble with having both is a major part to this awful tragedy.
Ah, so if the shooter had only wounded these kids, no one would bat an eye?
Who said that?
Other than confiscating all guns nationwide
I don't know anyone who is in favor of that, do you?
"Great shot" my *ss. What happened is the kids froze in an enclosed space. He just had to stand in doorway then point and shoot since the range was under 20 feet. Which also explains multiple hits on the bodies since range was so close most rounds would pass thru. And since no one else was armed he had several long minutes of shooting. If we were serious about addressing this issue like Israel, a couple of teachers would have been armed so he wouldn't have gotten to the second classroom. Cut the death toll in half. might have prevented him from entering the first classroom; Maybe not.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but how long was Lanza at the school before any police got there?
I'm not sure the answer to that but I did see a timeline saying that from the point the first call came in to the confirmation the killer was dead was just over twenty minutes. So it happened pretty fast if that's true.
phx said...
Other than confiscating all guns nationwide
I don't know anyone who is in favor of that, do you?
Yes. The Brady people and the Center for Handgun Violence.
Anything else?
phx said...
Inga is right. No one has ever attacked children in a school with a knife.
And there's the difference: twenty-two wounded children vs. twenty dead children.
Knives can't kill children?
Good to know.
simply making guns harder for citizens to get, however, has done nothing to stop these mass killings.
It sure has made a difference in other countries, but please, by all means, continue to ignore that body of evidence.
I understand what Matthew is saying, but isn't it strange how many here were saying what a great shot he was only yesterday?
Can you identify these people. There were a lot of posts and a lot of comments over the weekend. Were they folks you have seen comment here regularly? This is a callous statement that seems to fit your preconceived notions of gun rights advocates rather than something someone would say in response to this horrible tragedy.
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