"And I just want to point out, this was a central question during the election. It was debated over and over again. And on Tuesday night, we found out that the majority of Americans agree with my approach. And that includes Democrats, independents and a lot of Republicans across the country, as well as independent economists and budget experts."Is that the way elections work? There's a struggle right now to impose an interpretation on the election. One man got more votes than the other. We were put in the position of having to vote for one man or other other. But how does that translate into what we want on particular issues? It translates through the power-holders insisting on the meaning they like. We still get to fight back. The interpretive process never ends.
November 9, 2012
"Because Romney made opposition to raising tax rates on the superwealthy part of his campaign..."
"Obama seemed to interpret his defeat of his GOP challenger as a referendum on this point..."
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1 – 200 of 388 Newer› Newest»Obama wants to raise taxes on the healthy as well--just wait until people with high deductible plans find out they may not qualify under Obamacare.
The fellow who won has a strong hand when arguing that the things he said he wanted to do he now has the public's blessing to do. If the. People who voted for him don't like it, they are free to get bent.
We still get to fight back. The interpretive process never ends.
The people clearly spoken as to what they want. Sorta like Wisconsin voters did with Scott Walker, remember? You are now to shut up and let them do what they were elected to do!
It's only an interpretive process on the surface. The decisions are already made. Now it's more of a blame placing process. Or, even more likely, a scorched earth process.
Mandate is a meaningless concept. They will do whatever they have the power to do. And then we can learn what was in it after it is enacted.
A lot of Republicans? Like, in an absolute sense, there were probably a few thousand nutters who called themselves R and pulled the lever for O? Some very small fraction?
Man, that guy can tell a bald-faced whopper like no one since...uh...certain famous liars of the 20th century. And he does it totally straight-faced. I guess that's why it works. People naturally expect liars to blush and stammer or something.
Obama to Boehner: I won, so fuck you & you're doing it my way or the highway.
I don't suppose the elected composition of the House means anything about what the electorate wants. Sure if he had ever led on this issue instead of just blaming republicans for the last two years, he might now be able to make the case.
Obama to Boehner: I won, so fuck you & you're doing it my way or the highway.
Or call out the National Guard on ur azzes! There is nothing to negotiate. Just trying to protect the taxpayers.
Oh yeah. Raising taxes is gonna work really well.
Hear that?
That's the sound of capital running to the nearest offshore haven.
Obama wants revenge. Someone must pay for his righteous wasteful spending. More jobs must be lost. The economy must tank. Command and control and single payer are on the way.
btw- Democrats, ObamaCare will get you, too.
@garage said: Sorta like Wisconsin voters did with Scott Walker, remember? You are now to shut up and let them do what they were elected to do!
So does that work in reverse? Does President Cantinflas give you new found respect for ol' Governor "Dead Eyes"?
Seriously... he thinks he won on the economy?
Laura Ingraham had a college professor on O'Reilly this evening, who complained that Obama was all wet about just taxing "the rich." He was dead set against any reduction in any social programs and quite clear that consequently taxes must be raised on everybody.
Not to mention the fact that we're talking about election of the President, the guy charged under Article II with fighting wars and executing the laws. If Obama wants to say American voters ratified his conduct of the war in Afghanistan, and said they don't care about "Fast and Furious" or the Benghazi Charlie Foxtrot, things for which he is solely responsible, he's got a point.
But to the extent American voters expressed any explicit opinion on matters of tax revenue, stuff for which the House of Representatives is solely responsible, they did it by keeping a strong Republican majority in there.
So in fact the American voter can be said to have ratified Republican positions on taxes and revenue, and Democratic positions on foreign policy and executive orders (e.g. those weird ones granting de facto amnesty to "nice" illegals). THat's about it.
Where this guy comes up with the idea that winning election for President means the American voters want a Caesar, want that one man to make all of the important decisions about the Federal government -- local, too, honestly, if you ask Obama -- and to hell with federalsim or even co-equal branches of the Federal government, I do not know. Dreams from his Afrofascist father, maybe.
That is kind of the difference between "socialists" and "the intellectual elite." The socialists can - and will - do the math!
That's a great way to negotiate. Call out the opposition in public and threaten a veto before even meeting with them. Did he not read his acceptance speech?
The man is such an ass.
I would say let him raise taxes to show what will happen, but the dumb as a box of rocks democrat voters have a steep learning curve it would seem. When higher taxes don't work...they'll want even higher taxes. So yeah, I guess we have to fight, but for now, I'm tired.
So much for bipartisanship.
Meanwhile, I'm not opposed to what the man is saying. It makes great sense to me. Screw the wealthy. The (R)s should roll over and say "If we don't, we will lose the house, and it's all over. Sorry we didn't win the senate."
Then, perhaps, the wealthy will think twice before backing (D)s in their lust for votes. I like the idea of Sorros paying 50% rates.
I want some wealthy advocates who think the programs are out of control, on our side, saying "ENOUGH!"
The question was asked in the exit polls.
The professor who said taxes must be raised on everybody is dangerously close to being about half conservative.
So does that work in reverse?
Scott Walker is a national GOP hero for, among other things, wanting Wisconsin Democrats arrested and hauled into the Capitol for opposition to his proposals. Including a 8 month pregnant legislator.
I would think you would appreciate any hardball tactics that might arise from Obama.
Dante said...
So much for bipartisanship.
Where I live the nuts are already calling the Republicans obstructionists. They know Obama has no intention of compromising and they want to make sure they get their blaming talking points out first.
The Republicans will make him ride it over the cliff. His base will never notice. The economy is just not their deal.
Scott Walker is going to be indicted any minute now. Why are we talking about him?
The rap sheet on the Republicans is that they are obstructionists. I don't expect them to learn. I expect them to be torn to pieces by the internecine warfare between moderate and extremist Republicans. Both will continue to get hammered by the Democrats.
After all, he did win. Why do you think that was?
A huge number of Ingas. Devotees of The View.
wyo sis,
The British Labour Party with Stafford Cripps as Chancellor of the Exchequer followed the most reactionary and regressive fiscal policies in British history. There is a vast gulf between "socialist" and "liberal," particularly in our day.
Devotees of The View.
Well, Ted Nugent, just keep doin' what yer doin'.
garage tries: Scott Walker is a national GOP hero for, among other things, wanting Wisconsin Democrats arrested and hauled into the Capitol for opposition to his proposals. Including a 8 month pregnant legislator.
Pregnant or not, imagine if a Republican Congress took off in yacht for the Cayman's instead of facing up to a vote. You'd be pretty pissed.
And now you're scolding US Congressmen for even daring to even speak against your little Chicago hero?
Carl
Can we get millions of people to hire a legal team and sue Obama and force him to follow The Constitution?
Obama can say fuck you I won but his party did not win the congress. Can they not say fuck you we won? Why I Think they can. Meanies.
leslyn said...
"Afrofascist." Interesting.
"Solely responsible" for Benghazi and 'Fast and Furious.' Startling.
I reread this and I can't find it anywhere.
Obama wants to raise taxes not just the wealthy but on the healthy as well--just wait until people with high deductible plans find out they may not qualify under Obamacare.
Obama can say fuck you I won but his party did not win the congress.
Yeah, congress. About as popular as North Korean leaders in the opinion polls.
And now you're scolding US Congressmen for even daring to even speak against your little Chicago hero?
I'm not scolding anybody. Just, you know, the National Guard is on standby is all. And there is nothing to negotiate.
Phx. Popularity is bread and circus, The View. Congress will tell him to shove the tax increases for millionairesandbillionaires up his ass. He will blink. Blink. Blink.
Can they not say fuck you we won?
They can, but they got their asses kicked in raw vote totals, by at least 500,000 and counting. The only thing that saved them is gerrymandering.
Another MANDATE feather in the ole cap!
He will blink. Blink. Blink.
I don't think your predictions are credible. Why would I?
I don't think there is going to be any negotiating with Obama. The guy is allergic to being the one to make a decision. If Boehner wants to negotiate, it is going to have to be with Harry Reid (or whoever it was Reid negotiated the AHCA with).
He stole the election, so now he's going to tell us 50.5% of the voting electorate (about 25% of adults) gives him the moral right to do what he intended to do regardless of how the election came out.
Simple.
It seems The House of Representatives is the only thing standing between Obama's tyranny and We The People.
phx - Read Carl's post and learn something. Your mindless leftwing talking points are stale.
He stole the election
Another guy with a tin foil hat bringing credit to the GOP.
Didn't we pretty much already know "the American people" favor soaking people who earn more than them? This isn't exactly news.
It is, however, a terrible idea, and thus should be ignored. :)
The voters have spoken: They want gridlock.
Garage. Have a look at the spreads in the swing states. Very close. Mandate is a strong and inappropriate word.
Oh, and who owns 39 state houses with hands on the gerrymandering wheels?
Way off topic garage but fleebagging was low and desperate political move--probably lost the recall elections for you. Don't glamorize it or try to garner sympathy for that bunch of losers.
BTW, how did those WI Assembly races go for you mandate wise?
If Bert, Tom, and Bill are still giving us electoral advice when the sun comes up they'll turn to stone. So we got that going for us.
Phx. He blinked the last time, you know because the Bush Tax Cuts were signed by President B. Obama. Blink.
I want Nate Silver's projection of the probabilty of Obama succeeding with compromise.
err, without compromise. either would do, actually
It translates to Obama gets to do what he wants to do because he's so wonderful and perfect. Elections have consequences. The consequences of this one may not be so great.
I want Nate Silver's projection of the probabilty of Obama succeeding with compromise.
I want Nate Silver's projection of the probability of THE AMERICAN PEOPLE succeeding with compromise.
It translates to Obama gets to do what he wants to do because he's so wonderful and perfect.
This is what you sound like when you feel inferior, offended, and sorry for yourself.
This is what you sound like when you feel inferior, offended, and sorry for yourself.
You must sound like this a lot. And, you flunked psychology 101.
You must sound like this a lot.
No. You said it. I didn't. I would never say something like that about any man or woman.
There isn't enough $$ to help solve Obama's debt problem anyhow. His tax hikes will only create more misery.
Well, that was fast. The 2014 cycle has already begun. Will it be the same as the run-up to 2010, with the main difference being that nothing really large will get done?
in the meantime Obama and Boehner fight about what each side's victories mean, and we all sit around wondering whether the grand bargain of 2011 will become the deal of 2012.
I'm guessing it will.
I have a lot of respect for myself so I don't go around blaming other people for their successes and my shortcomings.
I would never say something like that about any man or woman.
But, you projected your feelings onto me. There's no scientific or factual assertion for your comment. You just like playing superior and omniscient to massage your fragile ego. There's not much I won't say.
Phx. He blinked the last time, you know because the Bush Tax Cuts were signed by President B. Obama. Blink
Obama is not running for reelection, he has no reason *to* blink. If we do go over the cliff, so what? I could care less. Obama could just delay the implementation while a deal is worked, turning the screws into Boehner & Republicans a little bit more and more each and every day.
Sure, raise taxes on the "superwealthy". Then what? Maybe cut defense. OK, that's fine, but you still haven't really done anything about the deficit. The middle class is going to pay one way or another - either through higher taxes or lower benefits or through inflation. Maybe all of the above. Tough sledding ahead.
phx said...
I want Nate Silver's projection of the probability of THE AMERICAN PEOPLE succeeding with compromise.
Phx, you have to consider the portion which voted for him THE AMERICAN PEOPLE too; he's gonna have to compromise, because, while Americans, they don't agree with his premise.
"He didn't win you on the economy.
After all, he did win. Why do you think that was?"
Lady parts, abortion, and gay people?
Didn't all of you all just get done telling all of us all that we lost because of icky social issue idiots in the Republican party putting everyone off?
Now Obama says... see I won on the economy... and it's like, yeah, sure, that was it all along?
Really?
There's not much I won't say.
You mean there's not much boo-hoo-hoo feel-sorry-for-me Obama-and-everybody-else-think-they're-so-much-better-than-me bullshit you won't say.
Maff is hard.
chickelit I'm all for Obama compromising. And I'm all for congress compromising.
I think the problem is going to be with the Republicans given how Boehner started out.
Oh no, raising taxes on the wealthy? OMG! We might go back to the days of JFk and IKe when America was poor and powerless. In those "dark ages" the top rate was 90%.
Garage: Who's to say a repeat of 2010 won't occur? Why would Americans be stupid enough to vote themselves into one party rule with the possibility of a stacked SCOTUS?
"Which is exactly why you should vote 3rd party instead of dumbing down the system and choosing the lesser of two evils."
This makes no sense whatsoever.
"Oh no, raising taxes on the wealthy? OMG! We might go back to the days of JFk and IKe when America was poor and powerless. In those "dark ages" the top rate was 90%."
If we bomb the rest of the world into pre-industrial status first, we ought to get the same result as then, don't you think?
Sounds like a plan.
@garage: I mean, I realize that an FDR-style government is your political porn fantasy--but look how that ended--look what really got us out of the Depression. Do you really want to go there?
BTW, I really tired of these parasites who suck off us "Producers"
Our maid wanted a raise to $7/hr. Thankfully, I was able to hire an illegal for $5/hr. - otherwise I might have gone "Galt".
And where is Andy and Ritmo? They added so much intelligence to any Althouse thread!
Didn't all of you all just get done telling all of us all that we lost because of icky social issue idiots in the Republican party putting everyone off?
Yeah, that's wrong.
Thank God for Garage.
Some of your worst most off-putting extremists are tea party members who don't give a shit about social issues.
You know who doesn't pay their maids? Immigrants.
They expect menials to work for nothing. Over and over and over it's true. Want to piss off your immigrant friends? Borrow their housekeeper and pay her half-way decent.
Also, ass that you are, I've worked cleaning houses. Have you?
One in seven people who voted for Obama in 2008 did not vote for him this year.
And here we see the inherent problem with democracy, when it doesn't have robust protection of the rights of the minority.
Democracy is a necessary, in a procedural sense, for a free society. Electing people beats the hell out of dictatorship.
The end goal, however, can't simply be democracy. Democracy does not equal freedom.
Wise Synova says:
Didn't all of you all just get done telling all of us all that we lost because of icky social issue idiots in the Republican party putting everyone off?
Now Obama says... see I won on the economy... and it's like, yeah, sure, that was it all along?
Really? <---THIS
And good night!
Garage. You may have noticed that our president wrote two autobiographies before he was fifty. He has, shall we say, an ego. He will blink. If we go over the cliff we are back in recession. We are headed that way already as you know. He does not want to be remembered as the guy at the helm who steered straight for the rocks. He will blink. He will get a higher number on adjusted incomes over one million not on the millionairesandbillionaires making 200k.
Garage: Who's to say a repeat of 2010 won't occur?
More reason to use your political capital now like Republicans ALWAYS do.
There are going to be some really unhappy 2012 Obama voters over the next couple years ... or less.
Oh no, raising taxes on the wealthy? OMG! We might go back to the days of JFk and IKe when America was poor and powerless. In those "dark ages" the top rate was 90%
Shall we change the voting laws back to where they were in the 1950s, too? :)
too late. should have thought of that before pulling the lever. you have to live with it now.
The underlying phenomena here is hating rich people. Democrats have been playing off hating rich people forever. The existence of the Democratic Party is based on fighting mythical creatures, the eeevuuul rich and those horrid white conservative racists.
DADvocate said...
The underlying phenomena here is hating rich people.
No. It is a way to help pay down the existing deficit in a way that least hurts the majority of people who make up this great country of ours. Don't forget this is preexisting debt. Debt created by ill conceived taxation and spending policies of which the 'rich' were generally the primary beneficiaries.
DADvocate said...
The underlying phenomena here is hating rich people. Democrats have been playing off hating rich people forever. The existence of the Democratic Party is based on fighting mythical creatures, the eeevuuul rich and those horrid white conservative racists.
They have to have an enemy who is evil. honestly, out of one side of their mouths they talk about bipartisanship, and out of the other they say that Paul Ryan makes their skins crawl, Romney is uncaring, unfeeling, cult member, evil. How does one being called those names and viewed with told that they are viewed with such revulsion work in a 'bipartisan way'?
This thing of the wealthiest people in the country getting behind the notion of "super taxing" themselves seems like cognitive dissonance, but I wonder.
It is not just in our country. Remember Dominique Strauss-Kahn? He was the leader of the socialist party of France and Managing Director of the International Monetary Fund. When that sordid sex scandal in New York broke, he was staying in a hotel at, I think, $2,200 a night.
His successor as socialist party leader and indeed now President of France, Francois Hollande, owns three mansions on the Riviera.
Tony Blair, now promoting a Presidency of the EU with himself as the obvious candidate, also has a lifestyle that cannot be explained by his wife's earnings as a lawyer any more than Bill Clinton's can.
There's just got to be big money in this stuff, somehow!
Looks like they're now in the anger stage of grief.
The House doesn't vote to raise debt ceiling. Or does it 300 billion at a time. Extract a dollar of real savings for each dollar of debt ceiling increase. Timmy has to manage on cash basis. I can see how John could bargain this. Some real entertainment.
" I like the idea of Sorros paying 50% rates."
Don't you know that voting (and paying for) Democrats means you never have to pay taxes. Ask Kerry and Jeff Immelt.
Oh no, raising taxes on the wealthy? OMG! We might go back to the days of JFk and IKe when America was poor and powerless. In those "dark ages" the top rate was 90%"
There you go!! Great idea. Lets bomb the factories of Germany, China and Japan so that they will have to spend the next fifty years rebuilding and we will revive manufacturing and high taxes. Cunning plan. Back to the future.
well said Michael
I had a really bad day.
I went out to my truck and and it was kind of tight and it looked like someone had a wee right by my tire. So I had the keys in my hand and bent down to see if the wee stain was touching my tire and I don't know what went wrong but I fell and scratched the car next to me. I feel really bad too because a bumper sticker he had got all tore up and I had a hard time getting up. A really hard time. I kept falling and falling over and over with the keys in my hand. When I finally made it to truck door and ot up I looked back I noticed the whole side of the other guys' care got accidentally scratched up really really bad. It's a new car too. Goes on battery, like half battery and half gas or something. Nobody was around so I left a note. Oh man. Now I don't know what's going to happen. I sure hope everything's okay.
Sorry. axadint I fell I LOL dint mean it.Sorry gin. call me if you need some money
twenty trillion -0-twenty trillion 7-0 - 1 trillion 3-0-twenty trillion-6-twenty trillion
leave a message and i'll git rite back.
too late. should have thought of that before pulling the lever. you have to live with it now.
We've seen this nonsense here since the election. You should think harder about what it means to be an American.
I say tax Hollywood. Tax'em blind.
Take everything from Michael Moore, Spielberg, Diamond, Barbra Streisand, and their ilk. Hollywood has had special tax breaks since WW2.
Take 90 percent of what they make and California needs to jack up their property taxes to.
Show them what 'Hope and Change' is all about.
Inga, I personally went straight to acceptance.
We're screwed. We've been screwed for four years, and now there's four more coming.
You smart folk will eventually realize that pain in your privates is self-inflicted.
They know Obama has no intention of compromising and they want to make sure they get their blaming talking points out first.
No doubt. I heard the man talk, and what an asshole. I mean, a real asshole. This is not the rhetoric of a man trying t compromise: this is the rhetoric of a man trying to inflame partisanship. How the hell did we get this man as a president?
Meanwhile, he has a point, in my view, and I hate to admit it. Programs are out of control, no doubt, and have been since the MIGHTY middle got its way.
I want the really wealthy to pay and pay. They have gotten away with the benefits of government for far to long. The top 400 income earners paid 17% in taxes, all well worth it, but the top marginal rate is greater than 50% for lower income earners. In federal taxes alone.
So screw the wealthy. Maybe they will stop giving all this money to the Obamao.
"Oh no, raising taxes on the wealthy? OMG! We might go back to the days of JFk and IKe when America was poor and powerless. In those "dark ages" the top rate was 90%"
I think we can start by cutting our Medicare and Medicaid and welfare for the levels of JFK and Ike. And let's not forget how much power EPA, DOE and DE had back then. And last but not least - DIVERSTY!
"but the top marginal rate is greater than 50% for lower income earners. In federal taxes alone"
WTF? Low income earners don't pay federal taxes if you include tax credits and subtract social security insurance - which is just a nice way for the poor to save for retirement.
It's hard to tell which side wants a another recession more, the Repubs to have a teaching moment, or the Dems because they don't understand economics, but it seems we will have a bipartisan crapfest on our hands for years to come. The only thing to fight about will be whose fault it is. We know the media will be very helpful with that, so we won't even get our teachable moment.
A total fail on that 2008 Obama vote, Althouse. The Dems will take no responsibility, but we get the bad economy anyway. I said it wasn't going to be worth the price back then, and I feel vindicated, so why does it feel so shitty?
Dante, a name: Jon Corzine.
If he were a Republican donor he would be doing time now.
Not saying that a "screw the wealthy" thing doesn't have it's appeal, but the guys who can coordinate millions of dollars to the winners will not be prosecuted by the winners.
We are at an unfortunate edge.
"It is a way to help pay down the existing deficit in a way that least hurts the majority of people who make up this great country of ours."
So, you hate minorities. Makes perfect sense.
"Debt created by ill conceived taxation and spending policies of which the 'rich' were generally the primary beneficiaries."
Federal spending is 3.8 trillion dollars this year. Care to explain what portion of it goes to the rich? I know you are not a math guy, but can you try?
phx said...
too late. should have thought of that before pulling the lever. you have to live with it now.
We've seen this nonsense here since the election. You should think harder about what it means to be an American.
The left pretends policy differences are "questioning their patriotism" since they know honest Americans see that negatively. But they have no problem questioning whether non-leftists are even Americans. What a fucking asshole.
If Obama is right, and we 'voted for tax increases', then EVERYONE's taxes should go up.
If you want big government, you need to PAY FOR IT!.
If you don't pay taxes, you only get checks from the government, then your checks need to be reduced.
Everyone needs to pay!
If we're to follow phx and the left's positions, being an American means hating everyone who blocks your political preferences.
I hope decent Americans choose otherwise.
Of course they will never take my advise, because it would end the game,
What the Republicans should do is give the president exactly what he wants and say so in exactly those words. We are on an unescapable trajectory to demise. Our best efforts can do nothing but reduce the rate of acceleration. The greatest empires that have existed in the world are spoken of in past tense. It's no tragedy that ours will join them. Obama's game is pandering to intellectuals who cling to the chimera of a utopia where human suffering is vanquished, and beggars eat at the tables of kings. The Republicans are scarcely better, as they preach a message of personal responsibility to a citizenry so bent on personal pleasure that the mere suggestion that there might be a moral behavioral code with a divine origin sends them screaming into the streets.
Light the match and put it in Obama's hand. The people demand it.
What a fucking asshole.
Beat it Marshal. I'm not slumming it with you anymore.
Marshal, you are wrong...
"If we're to follow phx and the left's positions, being an American means hating everyone blocks your political preferences.
"
If we follow phf, being an American means hating everyone who achieved more than you. It's the old cult of envy put on the pedestal.
I'm still in favor of HL Mencken's approach.
"Democracy is a system where people can decide what they want and they should get it good and hard.
Leslyn, I talked about Medicare, Medicaid, EPA, DOE and DE and diversity to the level of Ike and JFK. Pay attention next time. Please. It's not that difficult.
"Superwealthy"? Is that what we are calling $250 K and up now? The "superwealthy"?
European-style social programs require European-style middle class taxation. The tax brackets in the UK, for example, are 20%, 40%, and 50%. The 20% bracket kicks in at 0. The 40% bracket starts at about $50K USD and the 50% at $225K USD.
No matter how little you think you make, you are "wealthy" compared to someone with less.
Gabriel, it was Hayek's argument which went pretty much like yours. Let's put it this way - why shouldn't an Afghan shephard decide the level when you are rich or poor? By this standard, 99% of Americans are filthy rich and need to pay their fair share. And if you disagree with this - well, you are a racist, xenophobic nationalist pig.
I'm sure that any tax increase will hit me and my company heavy, and therefore the people that work there will pay for it. Tax the rich my ass.
The money will be taken from hardworking people here who have to complete with foreign workers making a fraction of the pay, who are not burdened with the regulations we are.
Taking this money from these American workers will rob them of the fuel they need for their modest futures and dreams. They will need to work longer into their old age to support themselves.
Where does the money go? To the likes of Solyndra, and unionized government employees to fund much higher rates of pay and benefits, and pay for a retirement decades before the people who will pay for them. Why do we care so much about these government workers and so little about the private ones? Votes.
I would like to ask you lefties if you think that wealth transfer is fair or smart for our nation and it's people.
phx said...
What a fucking asshole.
Beat it Marshal. I'm not slumming it with you anymore.
Oh no, not the troll blacklist!.
It always seems those who pose the most hate the most once you peel back the onion. Someone claiming their political opponents don't know how to be American is the lowest scum around.
"I would like to ask you lefties if you think that wealth transfer is fair or smart for our nation and it's people."
It makes them feel better abotu themselves. "They care!" If you take away this toy from them - they are nothing and nobody. Don't expect to persuade them.
I'm still waiting on Inga's answer to the question of what happens next with government spending and the deficit, now that her man won.
Inga, it may interest you to know that Greece has a gross domestic product of around $300 billion. They owe 190% of that to holders of Greek government bonds. Greece could tax at a rate of 100%, everything that moves in Greece for two years, and that would barely pay back the debt they owe.
So, Inga, how will your man Obama address this pressing issue in America? Or do you even think it is a pressing issue?
Fortunately, we're not Greece, right Inga. Our gross domestic product is around $15 trillion.
So, the good news is we'd only have to tax at 100% everything that moves for only ONE year (not two like those suckers Greece) in order to pay our debt off.
And Obama issued 30% of that debt, and Reid wants to add another 20% or so on top of that in the next year.
Obama's mandate: he and his followers were clueless on the national debt, so that is a clear signal that they can turn us into Greece.
Right, Inga?
Looks like they're now in the anger stage of grief.
You know, it does make me feel angry to learn my foolish neighbors can vote me into financial ruin. But it provides consolation knowing that they will share in the ruin (and likely fair worse).
leslyn said...
And that's just nasty. Hate much?
So you thin pointing out hate is hate. Stupid, but I agree that's the best you have. Probably should have just shut up though, defending the idiotic isn't worth the cost in credibility.
Leslyn, dear, did you manage to figure out the difference between Social Security and "Medicare, Medicaid, EPA, DOE and DE and diversity"? Cause if not, I can help you.
"There you go!! Great idea. Lets bomb the factories of Germany, China and Japan so that they will have to spend the next fifty years rebuilding and we will revive manufacturing and high taxes. Cunning plan. Back to the future."
God you really are an ignoramus aren't you?
The rich won't pay the taxes. They have lawyers and advisors to structure their finances to avoid all these taxes.
The taxes are going up on higher earning middle and upper middle class people. These people will feel it.
But to fund government the way Obama envisions it - the middle and working class are going to have to ante up big.
Just to help the historical and economic illiterate out:
Connection between non-existent factories in China/Japan/Germany and top USA tax rate in 1953-1963 = zero.
Rcocean. No, cockbite, i am not. But if you think our prosperity in the 50s had nothing to do with the fact that we had no international competition then you are.
You know, it does make me feel angry to learn my foolish neighbors can vote me into financial ruin. But it provides consolation knowing that they will share in the ruin (and likely fair worse).
The level of spite, self-pity and vindictiveness is really worth seeing. Did this work for you guys at some point in your lives?
8 of the 10 wealthiest counties in this country voted for Obama over Romney. So the 1 percent are Obama voters. Republicans should hammer them. Households who make 75,000 to 250,000 a year vote Republican. Those making less or more are Dems.
My suggestion for Repubs is to strip all deductions (other than standard deductions) for those who make over $400,000 a year. They also should set the estate tax exemption $5,000,000, tax 50 percent above that, and take away any estate tax and gift tax exemptions for charitable donations.
So when Warren Buffet dies, his $40 billion estate will pay about $20 billion in estate taxes and the rest will go to the Gates Foundation. Right now, with the exemption for charitable donations, the whole $40 billion goes to the Gates Foundation. Soak him and his gentry liberal billionaire Democrats. These people aren't Republicans. The middle class and upper middle class are.
Phx. Were you, by chance, alive during the time when George W Bush was president? Think hard. No, harder.
The people clearly spoken as to what they want.
Yep! They gave Republicans definitive control of the house of Congress in which all revenue bills must originate, clearly indicating they wanted Republican policy on taxes. Otherwise, they could have voted in Democrats.
Similarly, by giving Democrats control of the White House and Senate, they clearly indicated they want the Democrats in the drivers' seat on foreign policy, rather than the Republicans.
Something I'm sure you liberals never even considered:
These rich people you want to take money from do things with their money. The same things you might do if you were wealthy. They spend some, which creates jobs. They save some for their and their family's future. They invest some, which creates jobs. They give their employees raises with some. They give some to charity.
Now which of those things do you think they will sacrifice to give that tax money to the government?
Which ones would you take it from if you were rich?
Which use are you willing to sacrifice in order to give that money to Congress (Republicans) to spend on all those efficient successful programs like they do?
Phx. Were you, by chance, alive during the time when George W Bush was president? Think hard. No, harder.
Michael what are you talking about? Because you didn't like the way some people talked about Bush you get to be as childish as you like?
That's your standard? And are you proud of yourself then?
rcocean, just out of curiousity, do you think that there is any connection between American wages in the 1950ies and European/Chinese complete destruction?
Or put it differently, do you agree that US economy can be prosperous, and people can be pretty happy without Medicaid, Medicare, welfare, EPA, DOE, ED and diversity programs?
The Republicans should call Obama's hand. I think it's a losing one.
phx - I remember the left hating Bush and saying all kinds of nasty things. And that was pretty popular in the media, movies and just about everywhere. Now, do you think conservatives can now do anything so that next time there is a conservative president, the libs won't do that again? My thinking is simple - payback is the only way to let liberals know that whatever they do, they will get same and more.
Someone claiming their political opponents don't know how to be American is the lowest scum around.
Marshal, stop disparaging the rhetoric of many of your fellow conservatives! You RINO.
Anyway, I went to a dinner tonight for local liberal types, and it was a fun victory lap. And I see the butthurt continues here. How amusing. This really was a great week.
phx said...
Because you didn't like the way some people talked about Bush you get to be as childish as you like?
That's amusing, the guy who thinks being a good American is agreeing with his worldview is lecturing others on childishness.
Phx. No, just dont act stupidied that the opposition is outspoken. I am sure we can find ample evidence of your indignation at the unrelenting insults against GWB over his eight years in office so we know you are proud of yourself and the high horse upon which you ride.
"Rcocean, just out of curiousity, do you think that there is any connection between American wages in the 1950ies and European/Chinese complete destruction?"
What the hell is the connection?
Yep! They gave Republicans definitive control of the house of Congress in which all revenue bills must originate, clearly indicating they wanted Republican policy on taxes. Otherwise, they could have voted in Democrats.
You might want to CC that information to the Obama team, because I don't think they understand it that way.
somefeller said...
Anyway, I went to a dinner tonight for local liberal types, and it was a fun victory lap. And I see the butthurt continues here. How amusing. This really was a great week.
More evidence of how small the left is.
"Anyway, I went to a dinner tonight for local liberal types, and it was a fun victory lap. And I see the butthurt continues here. How amusing. This really was a great week. "
We are the canary in the mine, comrade, so to speak. You will feel the butthurt too, it's just it takes time until Obama's dick gets to the sensitive areas in your butt.
My thinking is simple - payback is the only way to let liberals know that whatever they do, they will get same and more.
Hyphenated American I never said nasty or disrespectful things about Bush personally. Although I think he was the worst President I admired many of the things he did, and I felt for his suffering during 9/11 in particular.
The way you think about payback... that's not worthy of yourself, or of any human being. That's a primitive existence.
madisonman, are you an honest Liberal? There's hope.
Michael
The tax rates are set to expire, because they were meant to expire, by law, as Republicans wrote them. Let em all expire, raise them, lower them, I don't care, I'll be fine either way. But you won't hear me crying that Obama is preventing me from doing what I want like the little crybaby pissant from Papa Johns. That's the really galling thing is hearing about all these guys that got rich under our current system, and yes, under Obama, that if they don't get their way they are going Galt and taking them ball home.
"But if you think our prosperity in the 50s had nothing to do with the fact that we had no international competition then you are."
We were well off in the 50s - not because of massive exports due to some mythical destruction of Chinese/Japanese factories (LOL) - but because we didn't allow foreigners to destroy our manufacturing base with cheap labor and cheap goods.
@Hyphenated American,
I believe all those agencies were launched by the Nixon administration.
"I won" served Obama so well in his first term.
I am sure we can find ample evidence of your indignation at the unrelenting insults against GWB over his eight years in office so we know you are proud of yourself and the high horse upon which you ride.
All this says is you don't have an argument against what I'm saying.
It's the equivalent of a child saying to a parent through his tears: "You let Joey get away with it!"
You can do better, bra.
I am glad that you did not say anything nasty about Bush. But a whole lot of people did. And I personally think that Obama is one of the worst presidents.
"The way you think about payback... that's not worthy of yourself, or of any human being. That's a primitive existence."
Sorry, you are not being "multi-cultural". I was born, raised and educated in Russia, that is my culture. There is nothing primitive in pay-back. In fact, this is the only way how you make the other side know that it should screw with you. Or, if you want, you can simply quote the 3rd law of Newton. Action and reaction. Of course, in Mother Russia, reaction is normally 10 times the action.
Oh, I see little Marshal needs a crying towel. Because we didn't see any conservatives doing premature sack dances before the election, of course. But Marshal, if you want a hankie, I'm sure one of your fellow job creators (other than the ones leading American society from their cubicles, of course) can provide one for you.
Phx. Look up Valerie Jarret's quote of a day or so ago regarding payback. Actually, I will do it for you;
"After we win this election, it’s our turn. Payback time. Everyone not with us is against us and they better be ready because we don’t forget. The ones who helped us will be rewarded, the ones who opposed us will get what they deserve. There is going to be hell to pay. Congress won’t be a problem for us this time. No election to worry about after this is over and we have two judges ready to go"
--Valerie Jarrett
"This really was a great week."
"Dow Ends Its Worst Week Since June."
And it only needed 3 days to do it. Apparently something really bad happened on Tuesday. Nice start to a second term. Confidence is blooming among the economically informed like tulips.
"The tax rates are set to expire, because they were meant to expire, by law, as Republicans wrote them."
Democrats, not republicans. Don't forget that DNC was in control of the House and Senate when the Obama tax rates were set up.
Phx. Look up Valerie Jarret's quote of a day or so ago regarding payback. Actually, I will do it for you;
Look it up where, bra? Because I got a lot of people laughing at it on Snopes.
Hagar, that was my exact point. Of course, medicare/medicaid/welfare was started by LBJ. Department of Energy and Education - that's Jimmah. EPA came from Nixon as well as affirmative action and bussing.
Gag.
Garage. I am not taking my ball home and I am not going Galt. I will let a couple of people go or move them to part time. None of this will hurt me very much but it will not do what it is supposed to do which is to raise revenue. It will do what it is intended to do, however, which is to retaliate against the successful.
I look at it this way; it has been demonstrated that half the country is financially clueless. That means there will be many opportunities to make money that will be overlooked by a dumb and lazy cohort. So. Win win?
And I personally think that Obama is one of the worst presidents.
I don't have a problem with you saying you don't like Obama or he's the worst President in your opinion. That shyte's normal here, dude, I do it myself.
And then I put aside and quaff down a quick beer or two with the guy next to me who thinks I'm wrong and we have a few laughs about sports, music or whatever.
Maybe you think as hyphenated-Russian the Althouse people are normal for America, but most of them aren't, and neither is your attitude.
Most of us have respect for each other even when we disagree - we don't personalize political crap to the extent people do here.
You're following the path of some pretty corrupt and uncool people. On the other hand, there's a lot of us who have our hand out to anyone of good will, regardless of their political beliefs. You might think about changing sides, you know, just for the hell of it.
Peace.
Phx. I looked it up and I cut and pasted it for you to read. Is it not her quote? It is attributed to her and I have a lot of people who are laughing at the people on snopes.
somefeller said...
Oh, I see little Marshal needs a crying towel. Because we didn't see any conservatives doing premature sack dances before the election, of course. But Marshal, if you want a hankie, I'm sure one of your fellow job creators (other than the ones leading American society from their cubicles, of course) can provide one for you.
Apparently I've overestimated your maturity and intellect. Maybe you just don't know how to be an American.
He's learned nothing. Absolutely nothing. And as a matter of fact we do have some idea of just why Obama won, and it wasn't because most people want higher taxes. It was because scawy Wepubwicans would thweaten ah lady pahts!
@Michael what's your source for that quote? Seriously, I don't think it's hers.
If you got something credible that says it is though, I'll give it to you.
@Hyphenated American And you'd find a friend in me regardless of how you think about Obama.
phx said...
Most of us have respect for each other even when we disagree - we don't personalize political crap to the extent people do here.
You're following the path of some pretty corrupt and uncool people. On the other hand, there's a lot of us who have our hand out to anyone of good will, regardless of their political beliefs. You might think about changing sides, you know, just for the hell of it.
Quite possibly the least self-aware comment ever made coming from someone claiming others don't know how to be good Americans mere minutes before.
"...if they don't get their way they are going Galt and taking them ball home."
That is just the disappointment and anger talking, but in effect the tax actually does the exact same thing. It reduces their output and thus in the long term is a net loss, because these people are almost by definition the best at utilizing capital, and the people the money goes to are clearly some of the worst also often by definition. They need because they can't make.
Now of course a certain amount of tax is necessary to run a government which provides the infrastructure to allow the capitalist to work efficiently, but it is still a cost, pure overhead, and should be minimized to allow the maximum creation of "the general welfare" though wealth and prosperity.
You may have a different method, but we really haven't ever seen one better.
"Phx. He blinked the last time, you know because the Bush Tax Cuts were signed by President B. Obama. Blink."
He hardly blinked. He signed because he wanted to.
He is bought and paid for by the wealthy elites, after all. As I said somewhere else on the web today, Obama is just a Metrosexual George W. Bush.
"Where I live the nuts are already calling the Republicans obstructionists."
Heh. "Already?"
What? You haven't been paying attention the last decade or two?
somefeller said...
Anyway, I went to a dinner tonight for local liberal types, and it was a fun victory lap. And I see the butthurt continues here. How amusing. This really was a great week.
more likely "victory lap dances"
Phx. Go to "Google" on your browser and type in the words "Valerie Jarrett on payback". "Google" will search the internet for articles on that topic and almost instantly you will see a number of them. Now perhaps the quote is made up or a fantasy of the wingnut right wing but there are a number of articles listed on "Google" that remark on the alleged quote. It is probably made up since a Chicago pol with Jarrett's credentials would never talk like that, right?
Phx, tit for tat is a recognized effective strategy in game theory and in life. There's actually lots of research on it. I think of it as promoting empathy.
In general the opposition to it is of two sorts, one is those who think of themselves as high minded, the other is those who use high mindedness as a ploy to avoid the tit which they have earned for their tat, because they don't want to stop tatting.
One form of it is the Chicago Way. You could ask a prominent Chicagoan if the Secret Service would let you.
Robert Cook. You would agree that the definition of opposition is to opose, no?
phx, I never had problems being friends with people, who have different political views. Back in Russia, my best friend was (and is) a Russian nationalist/socialist, which is a tad weird given that I am a Jew. Here is US, a bunch of my friends are libs. And that's okay, it makes it interesting. But the point is - if one side attacks the politicians I support with nasty rhetoric, I have no limits on what I say about their guy. If my stuff is not sacred - then neither is theirs.
What Boehner should say is that Giving the Govt more money through taxes has never done a thing to cut the deficit -- it goes right into "needed" programs. The problem is that the Govt is far too big. WHEN the govt shrinks in size, THEN you can ask about taxes being raised.
I think Republicans House Members should put forth a budget at 2008 levels, and they should pass it. And give it to the Democratically-controlled Senate.
Then they can say We passed a budget, but the Senate -- where Democrats are in control -- killed it. Get your party in order Mr. President.
Robert Cook said...
"Where I live the nuts are already calling the Republicans obstructionists."
Heh. "Already?"
What? You haven't been paying attention the last decade or two?
You mean when Bush was trying to address the entitlement mess and Democrats demonized him for it? Yeah, I was paying attention. Were you working on your "Smoot Hawley II is the Future" theory? If so I can understand why you had to be out of touch for a while. After all, hallucinogenics are still illegal.
I'm torn about what the Republicans should do. On one hand it does seem fair to just let the Dems do what they want and let the lesson be learned. It's easy to assume that it will happen anyway. The only possible way for the Republican to avoid being blamed for Obama's policy is to be very clear about letting him have his way.
On the other hand, it may just be too disastrous to be worth it, so that any resistance will at least prevent some damage, even if at great cost to the GOP.
I'm fairly confident the Dems are actually gonna get some on them this time. It's gonna be hard to avoid responsibility after 8 years with the Senate and the Presidency, even if the Repubs get called obstructionist.
Oh, Marshal, I'm pretty sure I know what it means to be an American. And I'm also pretty sure you know what it means to wallow in resentment and butthurt. And as you said, Someone claiming their political opponents don't know how to be American is the lowest scum around.
you voted for ron johnson. he is gross.
You might want to CC that information to the Obama team, because I don't think they understand it that way.
Don't be uncharitable. They've got a constitutional law professor at the head of the team, surely he'll make sure they understand such basic things as what powers are vested in what bodies. That by putting the House of Representatives under Republican control, the voters have chosen to let Republicans set the tax policy agenda, is so basic that even a fifth grader could understand it.
Garage Mahal at 8:48 p.m. 11/9/12: ...If we do go over the cliff, so what? I could care less. ...
Duly noted, sir.
"Republican obstructionists" has all the catchiness of "Republican abolitionists" in Obama = Lincoln world.
You guys are just poor phrasemongers is all.
"We were well off in the 50s...because we didn't allow foreigners to destroy our manufacturing base with cheap labor and cheap goods."
Hey! That's that there "free trade" & "globalization" that so many people here talk up so much as the salvation of humankind! By "destroying our manufacturing base" the capitalists have actually freed up Americans to be able to be dog-walkers and baristas at Starbucks and various and sundry other kinds of service personnel and temp labor...or "persons of leisure."
bagoh20 said...
I'm torn about what the Republicans should do. On one hand it does seem fair to just let the Dems do what they want and let the lesson be learned. It's easy to assume that it will happen anyway. The only possible way for the Republican to avoid being blamed for Obama's policy is to be very clear about letting him have his way.
Ok, it like this, Obama can't stand up by himself. He only stands because he's leaning against the Republicans. If they just step back he will fall over. All he really wants is to feel important, and oh yes, the legacy. He pretends he's in control, and demonizes congress, as though he would do some great thing if only they would get out of the way, well I say get out of his way, and let him fall on his face. It's what he fears the most.
@rcommal: garage is like one of those Acapulco cliff divers except he always pussies out and does a cannonball instead of an admirable swan dive.
Up thread at 9:50 and 10:07. I asked some serious questions of the liberals here. I really wanted an answer. Maybe I'm missing something, and I can be convinced.
After reading those comments, 1) Do you think these wealth transfers are fair and smart?, and 2) If it was you being taxed, what would you sacrifice to pay those taxes?
The level of spite, self-pity and vindictiveness is really worth seeing
Not spite or vindictiveness- truth telling. We're headed for financial disaster if we don't correct our course. You've just voted to continue on the same course. Why wouldn't I be angry? Why wouldn't I begin to plan for the changing landscape - to protect myself as much as possible?
Double-noting Garage Mahal's 8:48 p.m. statement of 11/9/12, as well as noting my own comment of 10:49 11/9/12.
phx said...
He stole the election
Another guy with a tin foil hat bringing credit to the GOP.
Funny how those 8 million white guys who supposedly weren't supporting Zero can't be accounted for. Funny, if you add them to the totals, Rove and Morris and Barone and Ras and Gallup were all right.
The rap is they stayed home, but, unlike last time, there were no great crowds of Conservatives saying they wouldn't soil their hands right up to the election. There was, however, an enthusiasm gap even the network polls conceded. There was a lot of exhortation all over the Rightosphere to get out and save the country.
Go all Alinsky about it, phx, like Petraeus' resignation is over a fling that may or may not have happened. This is the Chicago crowd, the ACORN crowd. It's just a coincidence they specialize in vote fraud and intimidation. It's just a coincidence this Administration lies about everything.
The truth always comes out, sooner or later. Consider the Venona diaries.
somefeller said...
Anyway, I went to a dinner tonight for local liberal types, and it was a fun victory lap. And I see the butthurt continues here. How amusing. This really was a great week.
Enjoy the fiscal cliff and Taxmageddon. Not to mention the next dip in the "Recession". There won't be a Golden Parachute for this one.
And nobody probably knows more about butthurt than some phony folksy.
Levi, I agree about Obama being a pussy that way, but I also think he's not very smart and I think liberals are very spoiled by not being held accountable. That makes them dangerous and they may in fact run the car off the cliff before they realize they may not like the landing themselves. Hell, we may already be airborne now, and we are all in this together. I think I'm with though - let em drive.
Remember when conservatives talked about preference cascades instead of vast conspiracies about voters made to vanish by villains from Chicago? Good times, good times.
somefeller said...
Oh, Marshal, I'm pretty sure I know what it means to be an American. And I'm also pretty sure you know what it means to wallow in resentment and butthurt. And as you said, Someone claiming their political opponents don't know how to be American is the lowest scum around.
It's good you agree the left is wrong in making those accusations. It's less good you're still so small you think your best contribution to society is doing your best to insult people. Worst though is that on this last assessment you're probably right.
Oh, Marshal, my contributions to society entail things you probably only barely aware even exist. But I also believe in providing some teaching moments. I'm communicating with you, after all. You should count yourself lucky tonight!
Robert Cook said...
"We were well off in the 50s...because we didn't allow foreigners to destroy our manufacturing base with cheap labor and cheap goods."
Hey! That's that there "free trade" & "globalization" that so many people here talk up so much as the salvation of humankind! By "destroying our manufacturing base" the capitalists have actually freed up Americans to be able to be dog-walkers and baristas at Starbucks and various and sundry other kinds of service personnel and temp labor...or "persons of leisure."
It's nice you understand life doesn't result in everyone being the Queen of Egypt. If you have daughters be sure to teach them that while they're young. But since you've already admitted your best solution is Smoot Hawley II with the concomitant trade wars and economic depression why don't you admit free markets are the best solution actually available to us?
It's one thing to recognize the limits of the free market and regret there are no better solutions. It's just nutty to insist only a permanent depression can "save" us.
somefeller said...
Oh, Marshal, my contributions to society entail things you probably only barely aware even exist. But I also believe in providing some teaching moments. I'm communicating with you, after all. You should count yourself lucky tonight!
Don't waste those valuable resources on me, I already know leftists are nuts.
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