"And we all want to give young women the tools necessary to succeed. So let’s teach girls to survive a misogynist culture with a fist, not a smile."
Jessica Valenti, over at The Nation, is getting a bit exercised about plastic surgery (and a charity that pays for surgery to correct children's facial deformities, including some things that aren't that terrible, but that parents with enough money would probably get fixed to improve their kids' lives).
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Ah, culture DOES matter.
Yeah, Al Sharpton thinks it's pretty f**ked up as well: 'MSNBC Hacks Attack 'Hate Groups' Who Turned Out for Nationwide Chick-fil-A Buycott'.
And thanks for that Valenti find. You can't make this stuff up!!
When I was younger, I never begged my parents to let me get a nose job.
Well, it appears to have been hard on Ms. Valenti, anyway.
What's her problem? Did someone tell her the Muslim Jihad's all male police were coming?
They would give her an attitude adjustment with rods the size of a man's finger and throw in half of a sex change called a cliterectomy at no extra charge.
But she claims she is afraid of the metrosexuals???
So, girls should punch people who make fun of them?
Plastic surgery may not be the optimal solution but it is a solution.
Better yet, use a fist and a smile.
I do think that these parents could've bargained with a surgeon and paid for this surgery themselves. There ar far worse deformities that should take precedence.
A rhetorical fist and a real smile, or real humor.
So let’s teach girls to survive a misogynist culture with a fist, not a smile.
Seems feminists have been doing just that and it doesn't seem to be working out too well.
Going off against the self-esteem cult is not a bad thing, but there's too much of the old Betty Friedan feminism here in its hatred of the idea of a girl being attractive, much less beautiful.
Not to mention the fact that Ms Valenti should have consulted with a few (gasp!!!) men. If she had she would have heard a great old truism:
You go looking for a fight, you will always find one.
Anger isn't beautiful.
I think raising a girl would be particularly challenging in modern American culture, trying to thread her upbringing between the hot princess culture and the androgynous harridan culture without bumping into either one.
Jessica,
Have a Coke and a smile and shut the fuck up.
"So let’s teach girls to survive a misogynist culture with a fist, not a smile."
Because being antisocial is the answer to being picked on. Yeah, I get it (*rolls eyes*).
If the goal is to lower yourself to the level of those you hate, then sure, Valenti's advice is sound. But if you choose to be a better person... well, Valenti doesn't seem to be a good role model for you. Time was, good advice from a good role model involved bettering yourself, not lowering. But I guess being an angry bitch feels better, and of course it's all about feeling better, isn't it?
Yeah, this country is a real bitch for women. Women can work, vote, drive a car, not be mutilated, not be honor killed, live longer than men, have better healthcare than men, not be thought of as a bum if you stay home while your spouse works even if you have no kids, etc.
Here's a quick tip for chicks like Jessica Valenti: grow up! You're an adult now. It's time to act like it. It is NOT everyone else's job to as you you want them to, just as it is NOT your job to act I want you to.
You want to give young women the tools they need to succeed? Teach them how the world actually is, rather than teach them to be spoiled, entitled brats expecting everyone else to make their lives better.
Remind me to be more grateful for not being mutilated and subject to honor killing, 'cause ya know we really really need to be soooo grateful.
Anyone who thinks America is a particularly bad place to raise a girl is either drinking the koolaid or not paying attention.
In many Muslim countries, they would not be taking a knife to your little girl's nose.
Trey
Is Valenti for real?
I despise taking parenting advice from the childless.
Come on Ann! Give us some good Southern Chicken/Bill Clinton breast snark. 2006 was so much fun.
I was afraid that girls had stopped bullying other girls over their looks but after reading JV I see we men & our "misogynist culture" are still calling the shots. Whew!
And I hope my "White Privilege card" is still current - I need a $500,000 interest free loan.
Is it misogynistic when girls bully other girls over their looks?
We have a friend who is a local cosmetic surgeon. He works 4 days a week fixing cosmetic problems for Boomer and Child of Boomer. He makes a lot of money, a really whole lot of money. Every Thursday he leaves his house at 3:30 AM and drives to a childrens hospital in the Bay Area to fix cleft palates and other real problems. He usually gets home about 8:30 PM sometimes later. Nobody knows what he does on Thursday except his wife and a very few of his closest friends. I found out completely by accident. I really don't care who pays for his local work, they are letting him do real charity.
"This is a fucked-up country to grow up in, especially as a girl."
What with all the female circumcisions, stoning of adultresses and rape victims, forced marriages, bride-burnings and all...
...seems that fellow wymyn Anna Wintour and Helen Gurley Brown are at least as much to blame as any knuckle-dragging menfolk.
more importantly, I know that anger and action can be more fulfilling than being beautiful.
Good God, will one of you pansy leftist men take this naive little girl out and get her drunk and give her a orgasm?
Note how ugly inside these people are.
Of course it makes is so easy for them to want to see a decline in your standard of living...
To my mind this is a feel good story. A poor girl who felt bad about her "Dumbo" ears - got them fixed and now feels more happy. We adults may laugh, but teenage girls REALLY get worked up over the slightest physical imperfections.
Ann, I'm linking you up, but isn't this a chance to hammer Valenti about "those breasts" from back in the day. She sure liked pumping up her breasts, which by implication were not "ugly."
She's a hypocrite, if I do say so.
Sounds like the incessant rant by a certain Generation X relative of mine...."Oh this countrrry!**heavy on the sneer** or "It isn't faaaair"! **heavy on the whine**
Occasionally wonder how she would have fared as a pioneer woman...kid on one hip while scrubbing clothes in an ice cold lake, then slopping the hogs after fighting off indians, all before breakfast.
"Is it misogynistic when girls bully other girls over their looks?"
Thank you Geoff.
I'm sure she means the Mean Girls are mean because the boys are mean to them first. Because their ugly. Then they dump on the even uglier girls. Something like that.
Good Lord.
When Valenti writes:
We should tell girls the truth: “Beautiful” is bullshit, a standard created to make women into good consumers, too busy wallowing in self-loathing to notice that we’re second class citizens.
it's clear that she's totally lacking in historical perspective. The idea of feminine beauty has a long history, and hasn't ever been dependent on a need to make women into consumers. Even things like jewelry and fine clothing have a long history of being exchanged/obtained not by the woman as consumer, but as an inheritance, as brideprice, as gift, etc.
We’re saying that being beautiful is something worth having when we should be telling them a culture that demands as much is toxic.
This is just ridiculous. The culture doesn't demand female beauty at all, as as human being with eyes can see looking around any American city. This isn't like plastic-surgery paradise South Korea. And the notion that valorizing beauty is somehow inappropriate is bizarre. Valenti's implied vision of the proper shape of society is abhorrent -- grey, dreary, and stripped of beauty.
They simply assured me I was beautiful the way I was. But here’s the thing: I knew that wasn’t true.
First, everyone looks awkward as an adolescent.
Second, when people tell their children that even ugliness can be pretty, that's totally true. Yes, I know that's Japan, where being snaggletoothed can be a charm-point (yaeba), but still. Even ugliness can be charming.
Third, look at her picture in the upper left hand corner. She's not stunningly beautiful, but she's not exactly been cheated of feature by dissembling nature. Dogs probably do not bark as she halts by them. Her parents weren't lying to her. If she really thinks she's ugly and it has twisted her up inside like this, that's a problem with her not with society.
"they're"
I'm beautiful. I don't have to be smart.
We should tell girls the truth: “Beautiful” is bullshit, a standard created to make women into good consumers, too busy wallowing in self-loathing to notice that we’re second class citizens.
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
HA HA HA HA HA HA
This bimbo has obviously never heard of "Cleopatra"
Wow are these people stupid.
A rhetorical fist and a real smile..
Sorry, some people need beatin'.
I think Jessica could use some anger management therapy. Aanybody want to donate? Ferris? Anyone?
All done, with a link to that 2006 blog post: 'Feminist Jessica Valenti, Who's Not Unattractive, Berates Teenager Who Had Corrective Surgery After Being Bullied'.
Thanks Ann!
...trying to thread her upbringing between the hot princess culture and the androgynous harridan culture...
Actually, it's simpler than that -- trying to thread her between the parents who let their daughters walk the malls wearing short-shorts that have "J-U-I-C-Y" across the seat and those who think $800 prom dresses are appropriate.
AllieOop said...
Remind me to be more grateful for not being mutilated and subject to honor killing, 'cause ya know we really really need to be soooo grateful.
We could pass the hat and send Oop to Somalia or Iran for a year.
He/She/It might remove the /sarc tag then.
Well, we got angry black women already. Might as well have angry white women as well.
Though, I don't see the ABW feeling all that much better for all the fists thrown, whether metaphorically or for realz.
In fact, angry = ugly.
Because if there's one thing this country is short on, it is angry women with a sense of entitlement and persecution.
Angry, sullen and jug-eared is no way to go through life, girl.
Jug ears alone are not much of a disability, but add on a personality disorder and you can guarantee a woman hated by all.
When will women figure out you can't negotiate with standards of attractiveness?
No matter how much you pound your fist and insist it's all a social construct, you won't change anything. It's all unicorns and fairy dust.
We do not NEED to be grateful to men to live in a modern civilized country in which we are equal citizens under the law. We are not " given " this "privilege" any more than men are not given the privilege of living in a safe society, we just do, because we are LUCKY.
Safety from religous and cultural danger is a norm for this country.
We could be grateful to God, or to fate.
"No matter how much you pound your fist and insist it's all a social construct, you won't change anything. "
'Cue the sun', sez Valenti.
Mean girls are way worse on "ugly ducklings" than boys are. I had a terrible time in junior high and high school with mean girls. The guys were mostly pretty kind.
Fast forward to a couple of high school reunions later and hahahaHA! It's kind of fun to go back home. Now. (This seems like a good place to plug Romy and Michele's HS Reunion. I love that movie!)
But seriously, I identified with the idea of growing into your face. It can take time, and often ugly ducklings turn out to be real beauties. A couple of gals from my HS class turned into knockouts well after HS - and without surgery. It is most important to develop strength of character and inner beauty, and I agree that sometimes taking a while to grow into your looks can kind of force you to you do that. But to counteract bullying with anger and fists? No. Please, no.
When I looked at the pic of this young girl, I truly did not see her ears at first. I had to read about them. I'm not saying that this organization was wrong to donate the surgery. Just that I saw a cute girl in both pics.
Might as well have angry white women as well.
Not exactly manning the barricades, if you ask me.
(h/t to 'Donald Douglas')
Valenti: So let’s teach girls to survive a misogynist culture -
Not prostrating yourself before a serial sexual offender like Bill Clinton would be a good start....
[Valenti is the one who posed like a Monica-wannabe for a Clinton luncheon photo op]
AllieOop wrote We are not " given " this "privilege" any more than men are not given the privilege of living in a safe society, we just do, because we are LUCKY.
You and your tumbling dice meme.
We do not NEED to be grateful to men...
Who said anything about "men"? I was standing up for "this f*cked-up country". Fightin' words from little miss white wedding.
Although, Oop, it wouldn't hurt if you gals would pick up a check every once in a while.
Furious, I was more disturbed by Ken's comment @4:48 and my response was actually directed to him.
Who said anything about "men"? I was standing up for "this f*cked-up country". Fightin' words from little miss white wedding.
Although, Oop, it wouldn't hurt if you gals would pick up a check every once in a while.
--------------------
That's why god invented McDonald's, so you can take a gal out and not have to spend any money.
We’re saying that being beautiful is something worth having when we should be telling them a culture that demands as much is toxic.
Biology and evolution disagree with you. Look down. There is no reason for human females to have protuberant breasts (other than when breastfeeding). No other primate does.
AllieOop: We are not " given " this "privilege" any more than men are not given the privilege of living in a safe society, we just do, because we are LUCKY.
Sorry, but the only reason you are free today is because of White Males.
Doesn't the current President have ears like that? Yet some women still swoon.
Or, are we not supposed to mention that?
Ahhh, misogyny.
And you're not created equal, else you wouldn't have been so easily oppressed for at least the last 200,000 years.
Compared to men, women are more likely to graduate from high school and college. They are less likely to be victims of violent crime, less likely to be imprisoned, and less likely to die on the job. They live longer, receive more attention from the health care industry, and research into their ailments is lucratively funded compared to boring male-oriented stuff like prostate cancer. They are never required to fight to defend this country in wartime and are less likely to choose military, police, or firefighting work as a career. They are the presumptive winner in child custody disputes and can choose either a career or stay at home parenting without social stigma. Popular mythology notwithstanding, they make the same pay for the same work that men do.
Oh, but many people (including the vast majority of women) prefer looking at pretty female faces to looking at ugly ones. Also, while 99.9997% of men are not CEOs of large corporations, the figure for women is 99.99999%.
So let's GET MAD at how terribly awful it is to be a woman in America. :)
And you're not created equal, else you wouldn't have been so easily oppressed for at least the last 200,000 years.
-------------------
Equality in America means equality before the law, recognized as a full person.
Quit trolling.
I'm well aware that women are to be treated equally before the law. I'm talking about Valenti's (and Allie's) ignorance of history and science.
Idiots' Guide to Getting Attention:
Profanity to indicate outrage. Check.
Nonspecific slagging of the nation.
Check.
Threat of violence that no one takes seriously to indicate outrage for realsies.
Check.
Complaint about "the culture." *
Check.
Identity group whinging and exaggeration.**
Check.
Stoking of class resentment.
Check.
*Note that culture doesn't matter until it matters and then it matters until it doesn't. Just ask a Palestinian.
**Jessica? Did your rich parents pay for a nose job?
A half an hour ago a shop owner's wife entered the shop just as I was leaving, and man does she ever look great, so I said that. Her husband said, "oh she always looks great." Isn't that a nice thing for a husband to say? I go enthusiastically, "You must be a trophy wife!" Which caused everybody in the place to fall silent wondering, wtf what a clumsy thing to say, and the husband said, "I think that's a complement" and I continued. "Or the brains of organization. Daaaamn. Trophy and brains, Dude, you totally lucked out." She beamed. Everybody laughed. And she is putty in my hands. Look, mush mush squish mush mush squish mush. Putty.
Does all this anger mean Valenti is gonna shoot up a theater?
Should we inform the local cops?
Can they get a new pair of tits?
Re: Fen:
Biology and evolution disagree with you. Look down. There is no reason for human females to have protuberant breasts (other than when breastfeeding). No other primate does.
I think that's because other primates have those protruding snouts. That said, you're probably right that there has been some sexual selection in favour of more pronounced secondary sexual characteristics in females. This process of selection for physical differentiation has proceeded further in some populations than in others:
“It’s actually more difficult to determine the gender of a skeleton from the Viking era,” says Harvig. “The men’s skulls were a little more feminine and the women’s skulls a little more masculine than what we’re seeing today. Of course, this doesn’t apply to all skeletons from the Viking period, but generally it’s quite difficult to determine the gender of a Viking Age skeleton.”
I don't compliment a women's brains but I have been known to say, "great tits" and they seem thrilled.
Jay:
Good God, will one of you pansy leftist men take this naive little girl out and get her drunk and give her a orgasm?
Next sentence:
Note how ugly inside these people are.
Completely unaware.
Shocking more women don't vote GOP.
And its not a female-beauty issue. I had a male friend in high school who had his ears "pinned" back too.
But of course, the feminists have to make it about something more than teenagers of BOTH sexes not wanting to look goofy.
Also, gentlemen and ladies, please do not take every story featuring an idiot female saying idiotic things as your cue to start complaining about women generally and giving instructions to the ladies on proper appreciation and deportment. Frankly, you sound like a feminist. That's not a compliment. You're only annoying friends and potential friends.
But I like to complain about women. Generally. =)
@garage: Valenti's "So let’s teach girls to survive a misogynist culture with a fist, not a smile" is pretty fugly. You yourself sported that "fist" thing during the Wisconsin recall. I always took that to mean you supported the violent thug aspect of that still-seething conflict.
_________________
I see from her Wiki bio that Valenti has a daughter so I'll have to retract what I wrote @4:53. I just hope that Valenti doesn't do to her daughter what Ann Gaylor did to hers. Hatred is hereditary.
Hmmm...so Vikings were really girly men. Guess those horned helmets were just a form of compensation...
The girl had a backwoodsy angularity to her face. The surgeon not only trimmed her ears, he also softened her nose and chin. If the girl now feels better about herself and therefore happier and therefore more open to the world, which will most likely return the sentiment, well, then the surgeon did her a great service.
It's called the pursuit of happiness, something that drives the Valentis mad, probably with envy.
In a lot of ways I’m glad I was considered unattractive as a kid—there is an upside to ugly. I developed a sharp sense of humor, a defense against the taunts. I thought more deeply about how good and bad people can be. I started writing. I found feminism.
Rush Limbaugh said...
“Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society.”
Interesting thread, and topic. I have three daughters, two with graduate degrees, two who speak other languages, and one who carries a gun.
Somewhere I missed the anger part of it. I feel sorry for these women who are unhappy on the country that offers them the best deal life has to offer a woman since Eve.
Childish doesn't cover it.
A charity that provides pro-bono cosmetic surgery. Some procedures that might be considered discretionary, but others -- cleft palates -- that prevent a lifetime of misery.
And others for kids around the world, too?
What "...a f*cked-up country to grow up in", indeed.
From the article: "In a lot of ways I’m glad I was considered unattractive as a kid—there is an upside to ugly....I found feminism."
She has that in common with every feminist I know.
But anyway, what did that ugly hag expect? She seems oblivious to the fact that her push for social justice--with a sense of humor!--made the Baby Face Foundation possible. Charities used to, you know, feed the hungry and care for the sick. Now the government does all that and people have charitable money burning a hole in their pocket. Gotta send it somewhere. I think I'll start a charity to give balloons to giraffes. From the article it looks like someone's already giving them nosejobs.
"Shocking more women don't vote GOP."
Shall we pick out some quotes from bill maher? Shocking all women don't vote Democrat.
Seriously Garage. What happened. Your turning into the David Letterman of this blog. Unfunny, bitter. You used to have SOME game. Ever since the recall election its like you stopped trying.
I always took that to mean you supported the violent thug aspect of that still-seething conflict.
The thugs were looking out from the Capitol, not looking in.
garage mahal said...
Completely unaware.
Completely unable to comprehend.
Idiot
Shocking more women don't vote GOP.
Married women vote Republican, idiot.
Oh total bullshit, I never voted Republican.
Hey, the MALE Mayor of NYC just declared baby formula a controlled substance.
Where are all the "pro choice" feminists declaring outrage at this?
Our little babe Jessica has a baby, why isn't she screeching about this clear example of misogyny?
The thugs were looking out from the Capitol, not looking in.
Still seething I see.
Jessica is totally full of shit. She plays it as if she was an ugly duckling. Maybe, like all adolescents, she was insecure about her looks.
Fact is she is a very attractive 28 year old Italian-American brunette with a successful husband, a masters degree from Rutgers, a career and a young daughter. She looks very good in her various publicity photos, and I don't think it's photoshop that makes her so. Her good looks are not completely incidental to her successes.
It's really just a particularly disgusting version of I've got mine. She's entitled to her opinion that homely girls should be satisfied with their situation, but she really should shut the fuck up about this.
Mayor Bloomberg does need to cool it with his interference in the health choices of the citizens of New York. The substances are not illegal drugs and none of his business.
Having said that breast feeding Is the better, healthier choice and mothers can still bottle feed formula, nurses will be signing it out now, that's all.
AllieOop said...
Oh total bullshit, I never voted Republican.
Come on Allie. Try it. Just this one time. You know you want to. No one will ever know. Just your little secret. You and Mitt.
David, I will say this, I'm not voting for Obama, I don't trust him anymore.
AllieOop said...
Oh total bullshit, I never voted Republican.
You're either kidding or more close minded that I thought.
No Chickelit, I'm not kidding, why should I have voted Republican when I didn't like the candidate and felt he would be wrong for the country? I didn't say I always voted Democratic, now did I?
I have a friend who was a successful plastic surgeon in NYC. Part of his practice was reconstruction from trauma. Another part was making women look better, or helping them to think they did.
He also for over 30 years spent 5 weeks a year in either India or South America doing cleft palate procedures on impoverished kids.
Maybe Jessica would like to opine on that too. How deformed do you have to be to merit charitable surgery? She seems to have all the answers.
There is a connection between this post and the previous Aurora post.
It has to do with American exceptionalism... the idea that we can do anything, a trait which up until recently was considered a good thing.
That can-do spirit, so much in our DNA, it became cliché... "If we can put a man on the moon" why cant we this and why cant we that?
This uniquely American idea has propelled us to believe that anything is possible if we only have the imagination to think of something...
If you are an "ugly" duckling - there must be something we can do...
If you are a "crazy" student who wants to shoot up a movie theater and do - there must be something we could have done.
Chick, did you ever vote for a democrat?
I have voted for republicans many times. Mitt Romney, Bill Weld, Rudy, Paul Cellucci, Scott Brown-they are all considered Rhinos though. They would be democrats in most states because of their social stances, although Mitt's have changed.
I don't vote the party, I vote the candidate. John Silber-I think was his name was a democrat for governor in Mass and I certainly didn't vote for him, he was gross.
Also, I vote for women with nice tits, doesn't matter the party.
tits.
Allie, the baby killer,
cause ya know we really really need to be soooo grateful.
You could've been aborted by someone like you. And yes, to appreciate what you have is to think about how much worse things could be. But being a good little lefty, all you see is how you think things should be, instead of just how awesome things are compared to how shitty things used to be just 100 years ago.
Even at the ripe old age of sixty something, it's not too late for you to grow up and appreciate what you've got, instead of pissing and moaning about all the stuff you don't.
Hmmm, wait a minute I may have voted for a stray Republican in local elections, IIRC.
Thanks for reminding me Titus.
Allie, the baby killer,
We are not " given " this "privilege" any more than men are not given the privilege of living in a safe society
This is patently false. Men are responsible for the safe society in which women live. Women are definitively NOT responsible for it.
Ken, there is something seriously wrong with you.
Also, Ken, when have you ever heard me pissing and moaning about this country?
Married women vote Republican, idiot.
As if single women are less worthy than married women in your mind. And as if ALL married women vote Republican. What an asshole. And a great strategy on top of that:
The poll numbers are worse for Romney among women. In Pennsylvania, Obama leads him among females by a 59 to 35 percent margin; in Florida, 51 to 44; and in Ohio, 58 to 37.
Tea Party wingnut governors ain't proving to be much of an asset in the big swing states either, are they, Jaytard?
Allie, the baby killer,
The substances are not illegal drugs and none of his business.
Just how do you think substances become illegal? It's due to over zealous politicians like Bloomberg. Drugs were legal for most of the history of the US, but thanks to asshats like Bloomberg, we now get to have a war on drugs, which, like, has totally made things better.
Whining about how tough life is because 5% of the population is too beautiful for you, how sad. It is consistent with leftism though. They want to reorder society to ensure the top one percent are a poor as everyone else.
A better solution: ignore shallow people, like Valenti.
Ken, hmmm, maybe your insanity is drug induced. Lay down the pipe.
Allie, the baby killer,
there is something seriously wrong with you.
Yes, I believe in the sanctity of life. I understand that white European men are the cause of the civil modern world. I don't deny these facts the way you do. Since you cannot countenance them, you claim that there is something wrong with me.
Also, Ken, when have you ever heard me pissing and moaning about this country?
Yes, when you said that you were definitely not lucky to live in this country and you didn't have to be grateful to any man for providing you the safety that men provide you.
Titus said...
Chick, did you ever vote for a democrat?
Carter, Mondale, Dukaka, Clinton, Gore. Many at the state level in various states: WI, CO, CA.
Dumbass Ken, I specifically DID say I was LUCKY to live in this country, reading comprehension problems due to lost brain cells from drug use perhaps?
You do not believe in the sanctity of life if you threaten to use a gun on abortionists and women who have abortions, as you did in another thread last week. You can and probably will continue to call me a baby killer, despite the fact I have said I do not advocate abortion and believe life begins at conception.
Are you going to start calling Althouse, "Althouse the baby killer" too Ken? Coward. I will continue to point out your insanity.
GASP!! The sin of "Lookism." Oh the horrors, the utter horrors!
I am a woman the same age as Valenti, and I have three daughters, and I don't worry about this nonsense at all. My girls have been taught from day one that A. it's inside beauty [aka character] that counts, B. taking care of their bodies and wanting to look nice without obsessing over it is honoring themselves and those around them, and C. that they are beloved, valuable and worthwhile human beings because they are the adored children of a loving Creator and by the way so is everyone else around them.
They like looking nice, but that's where it ends. Obsessing over their looks would be a sad attempt to fill up some kind of emptiness inside, which in our case, is filled by our relationship with God. So no emptiness, no low self esteem, no hand-wringing over "the culture" as though that was the be all and end all of reality or somehow should determine how we feel about ourselves and our worth.
Valenti might want to try it sometime.
P.S. I just noticed that her little tagline is "Politics, [something, blah blah]. With a sense of humor."
That was probably the most humorless thing I've read in quite some time!
"You can and probably will continue to call me a baby killer, despite the fact I have said I do not advocate abortion and believe life begins at conception."
Speaking of elective surgeries.
Valenti might want to try it sometime.
She can't. For athiests like Valenti, feminism is a religion.
You might as well advise an Evangelical to put down her bible.
Fen--there is always hope. Just ask St. Paul :)
Erika wrotw:
P.S. I just noticed that her little tagline is "Politics, [something, blah blah]. With a sense of humor.
Perhaps Valenti meant "sense of humor" in the older sense: blood, phlegm, choler, and melancholy or black bile)
I'm still trying to figure out why I don't get a gold metal. Like those athletes are better than me or deserve it more.
Allie Oop wrote:
Remind me to be more grateful for not being mutilated and subject to honor killing, 'cause ya know we really really need to be soooo grateful.
Do you think a sad attempt at sarcasm would save you in a culture that does genital mutilation?
wv: endmigsy2
Jessica Valenti doesn't get out much if she thinks the US is a "fucked up" country to grow up in.
And I have yet to see any actual evidence the culture is misogynist any more than it is misandrist.
Feminists like Valenti seem to have have plenty of choler and black bile, and no blood at all.
Truth be told, now that I do have a daughter I do think about these things more--especially as it relates to the church and theology but also broader society.
And I would hate for her to grow up thinking that she has to complain and play the victim and give into bitterness. I have a good friend who faces sexism in her job as a very successful scientist and professor, but while she does grumble on occasion her job allows her proof by achievement.
Don't complain about people, just go out and do something about it. We live in a country where everyone might not approve, and some people might resist, but there's actual freedom to do it anyhow.
We've lowered the bar of societal opposition whether be sexism or racism or sexualism from outright blockage to mere disapproval. And so many people think if they're not entirely affirmed then there's an actual barrier to their success.
I want my daughter to find her own interests, pursue her goals and find her curiosity fulfilled, ignoring the people who will say she can't do this or that. I'd be sad if she spends her whole life complaining how other people make her feel bad.
Quaestor, my whole point being we do not live in such a country, we live in a modern civilized society and I do not need to thank MEN for this.
We derive our freedoms from Who? From what?
We derive our freedoms from Who? From what?
Our Constitution?
@Allie: Our Constitution which derives from many common law traditions and religious tenets which you are fond of ridiculing, or at least assisting in their ridicule.
2.1 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Chickelit, that's disingenuous and quite mean of you, I don't believe I ever ridiculed anyone's belief system.
Fact is she is a very attractive 28 year old Italian-American brunette..
Contrary to popular belief, men do look beyond physical beauty when assessing the attractiveness of the weaker sex. I've read enough of Valentine's rants to conclude she is a bitter and ugly women.
@Allie: I forget now which commenter it was who told me (parapharsing) "Yes I have a problem with tradition" (this was in the context of legal burden of proof)--"it's unfair."
You are always siding with those types, Allie. It must be spite on your part.
Chickelit, I may have a temper, I may fly off the handle, but I do not think I am spiteful. When I side with a person on certain issues it's because I think they are right, if not I remain silent OR IF important enough I disagree, even if they are from my own political ideology. No one is right 100% of the time.
Jessica Valenti doesn't get out much if she thinks the US is a "fucked up" country to grow up in.
As do most people who think of the US in those terms. My suggestion is to visit the West Coast of Africa or a few countries of the Middle East to shine the light of perspective on their limited worldview.
Like most hardcore leftists, they seek societal perfection, utopia and will do whatever they can to achieve their fantasy world. History has laid bare what happens when they are put in positions of authority so its vital to prevent it here.
Growing up is a euphemism for getting your ass kicked a couple of times.
Men teach other men their limits. Women are never reigned in. Of course, the alternative is Islam......
Allie: we live in a modern civilized society and I do not need to thank MEN for this.
We derive our freedoms from Who? From what?
From a body of judeo-christian law and a bunch of white men from Europe.
No need to thank us, but you could show some appreciation next time your liberal friends go on another "white male patriarchy" bashfest.
Or at least tell them go try the Chineese or Sharia model instead.
we live in a modern civilized society and I do not need to thank MEN for this.
Indeed. It was the Founding Mothers who established and fought to create this Republic.
I'm still trying to figure out why I don't get a gold metal.
You didn't earn that medal, someone else made it happen.
Which kinda explains EVERYTHING about Obama's credentials!
Yea, because women don't judge men based on their looks.
@chickelit cries for fairness while nitpicking Allie Oop to death over nothing, and then silently watches by as she gets called a baby killer.
It was the founding Mothers that contributed to the success of this country back then and modern day women who have contributed to the greatness of this country since.
So unseemly to pat yourselves on the back to such excess. You didn't do it alone, a woman HELPED you.
“Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone” Dorothy Parker
"You didn't do it alone, a woman HELPED you."
Not him. Other men. We all owe them, yes plus some women. But why is it so hard to appreciate someone else's efforts and sacrifice just because he has balls?
The bottom line is that women have freedom because enough men agreed it was the right thing to do the rest couldn't stop it. Is the fact that we had to evolve from that circumstance barbaric? Sure, but it's also true. So why do the men who drove women's freedom deserve your scorn and ridicule?
Deprogram yourself.
Marshall, ever heard of Suffragettes? Women fought for some of their rights, they didn't just wait for men to bestow it upon them at their leisure.
Also, I don't scorn any man, only those who think they are Gods.
OK, that might be over the top.
garage mahal said...
@chickelit cries for fairness while nitpicking Allie Oop to death over nothing, and then silently watches by as she gets called a baby killer.
You know something garage? I got accused of that (offline) at another place under very similar circumstances. I'll spare you the details (and maybe we should have met IRL to sort some of this shit out) but the bottom line is that I take people at face value, I have a long memory, and I don't go in for any of the so-called theatrics that somethings seem to drive this place. Call me an outlier or a liar. Your choice.
TLDR
But just in response to the title and the general tone of the linked article. This is still, in spite of the efforts of many, the greatest place to grow up and to be grown up. If you are too overwrought over your own issues to recognize that you are the one with a problem. Sometimes I wonder what spoiled American brats would do if they ever met a real problem.
"sometimes" not "somethings" lol
"Marshall, ever heard of Suffragettes? Women fought for some of their rights, they didn't just wait for men to bestow it upon them at their leisure."
Suffragettes didn't fight, they argued. And men argued in support of them, but somehow you conclude only women who argued for women's equality should be credited. But if those men saw life as a gender war as you do women would still be second class citizens. Leave your sexism behind and join reality.
chikelit
I'm not asking you to live up to rules I'm not willing to live up to. Just admit you're playing a game. [online at least, as I admit to].
And how did women get the vote? Men put it to a vote.
As a comedian once put it, "How the (bleep) did we lose that?"
The point being that yes, even the very laudable suffragettes owed very much to the men of their time.
Incidentally, according to Wikipedia: "The Ayes included 36 (82%) Republicans and 20 (54%) Democrats. The Nays comprised 8 (18%) Republicans and 17 (46%) Democrats."
I have no clue what you're getting at, garage. I'm a real person with similar opinions to those I express here. I have never posted under any other pseudonyms. Meade and Althouse met me about a month ago. You and I even talked on the phone once, remember?
Young women know exactly how ugly the culture believes them to be.
What planet does she live on?
We don't think they're ugly, just silly and neurotic.
As someone not normally shaped from head to toe, I'll cry her a river thinking about her hideous nose. I believe there've been studies that show males differ further from the mean in looks and brains both.
Allie: Marshall, ever heard of Suffragettes? Women fought for some of their rights, they didn't just wait for men to bestow it upon them at their leisure.
Again, women only have rights because men allowed it. It would be nice if women could acknowledge that.
What? You think after being oppressed for more than 200,000 years...supergirl appeared?
Marshall, do you not think that perhaps you really do not know me and telling me that I live my life as a gender war, is a bit presumptuous? Believe me, and those who know me well know I love men, too much perhaps.
Also, I give credit to men who recognized that by denying women the rights bestowed on them by their Creator, was wrong and were decent enough remedy it. BUT they do not deserve ALL the credit.
@chickelit
You have blinders on, I don't know what else to say. [I do too, but admit it.] Offline vs online persona are two totally different things.
You saw Allie get savaged. You should have spoke up for a fellow Sconnie and you didn't. No big whup, just get it right next time.
@gargae: If you had read my 8:58 comment correctly (as I intended it--if I screwed up, I apologize) you would realize that I was complaining about a commenter who was demanding "fairness" in the face of established legal tradition.
Whoa Chickelit and Gargage, two of my fellow Sconnies, let's all kiss and make up, comeon whaddya say?
Allie #1: We are not " given " this "privilege" any more than men are not given the privilege of living in a safe society, we just do, because we are LUCKY
Allie #2: Also, I give credit to men
We all may be lucky we were born here and not in some Arabian shithole, but women didn't reach equality in Western Civilization by luck. The reached equality because men, who had virtually complete power, decided equality was the right choice. Your ascribing it to "luck" is a programmed mechanism to avoid crediting those men. So maybe you should introduce Allie #1 and Allie #2.
Marshal, it wasn't luck that made this country great, but it's luck that allowed us to be born here. That is what I meant by that statement.
AllieOop
"why should I have voted Republican when I didn't like the candidate and felt he would be wrong for the country? I didn't say I always voted Democratic, now did I?.."
I see, then you must have been too young to vote for Reagan.
Marshall, ever heard of Suffragettes? Women fought for some of their rights, they didn't just wait for men to bestow it upon them at their leisure.
Right, because we all know men were defeated by women in the Battle of Kentucky Ridge where 50,000 women perished in the final charge.
What do you mean by "fought"? They went to meetings, made speeches, wrote letters, carried signs, demonstrated...? That isn't fighting. If men had simply ignored them women wouldn't be voting today.
Women have the right to vote because enough men became convinced it's a reasonable thing. "Bestow" is exactly the right word.
Eric, seriously? You think women would've just went back to their cook stoves and shut up, if men were to have just ignored them? You DO NOT understand western women.
@chickelit
Just trying to keep it real. And that's as authoritarian as I care to get.
You should cherish odd duck Wisconsin voters like AllieOop. Poke Wisconsin and you get a lot of Allies. Fiscally liberal, and socially conservative? Catholics? Pro Obama and Pro Save Walker?
One day you and I will take two weeks off and tour [drink] every city in Wisconsin and settle this once in for all. I sure as fuck can't figure it out. I will say I think a lot of people are shying away from party identification these days. For good, nothing good happens from that.
"we live in a modern civilized society and I do not need to thank MEN for this." then "I give credit to men who"
"Women fought..."
Notice the effort you put into parsing which men are creditable for what? And that much you have to have dragged out of you. But notice you have no such problem crediting women generally.
You keep pretending you're evenhanded. Nobody's fooled but you.
I think if you have no political power your options are to go to war or convince those in power to share. Since war is out, yeah, I think if the suffragettes had been ignored the movement would have died out eventually. Oh, it would have resurfaced periodically, but the reality is you can't force political change without a lever, and they didn't have one.
There are still a few countries around the world where women can't vote, and it's not because they don't want to. It's because the local men won't allow it.
And don't forget the vast majority of women weren't involved at all. These kinds of political movements were for the upper classes. Normal people didn't have the time.
Can I join you two guys for a beer one day, garage and Chickie? I won't bite either one of you, even though you are both men.;)
Rush said it best....
"modern feminism was invented to allow ugly women a place at the big boy's table".
of course talk radio was also invented to allow tub o'lards like Limpballs a place at the table...
Alex, do you ever have to keep your hand from hitting yourself upside the head?
Allie - I'm an equal opportunity basher. There are no sacred cows in my book, if it exists it will be bashed!
Plastic surgery is a way for women to take advantage of men, by not developing other attractive qualities.
Is it OK for men to lie about how much money they make, and their positions at work? Their educational level and achievement?
We’re saying that being beautiful is something worth having when we should be telling them a culture that demands as much is toxic.
What you mean "we" white girl?
And I don't know what culture she's talking about but the people I hang out with think while beautiful women are nice, the people who make the biggest difference in our world look just like us. Ordinary with some pleasing variations here and there. And many of uis teach our kids it's what's inside that counts.
This is why the east / west coast ghetto drives me crazy. They think everyone thinks like they do.
Get yourself a chiken sandwich, Ms. Valenti.
wv selfink
Appropriate enough.
Remind me to be more grateful for not being mutilated and subject to honor killing, 'cause ya know we really really need to be soooo grateful.
I have to admit, I find this very offensive. I can't quite put my finger on why.
I think it has something to do with this. If I walked up to a veteran who protected our country, and said "Oh, I'm sooooo grateful you kept our country safe from the villains," or to a cop who put his life on the line to protect us and said "OH, I'm sooo grateful."
The fact is, these things should not be taken as the natural order, since there is proof by example there are stable societies that are not this way. That means there is sacrifice. I suppose the fact that this could be a natural part of humans is a bit disturbing, but there you have it.
Allie oops, don't take it for granted. You could have been born into those other societies, and then you and probably more importantly, men would have to sacrifice blood to change it.
Also, when I watch stonings in those ME countries, it isn't only the men throwing the rock. Nor is it only the men cheering the whippings, though I think it is men who change it.
Dante, you are reading something in my statment that is not there. You have no idea just how grateful I am to live in his country, I came here as a three year old refugee from Europe in 1955. My daughter serves in the Navy and is attached to the Marines and is in Afghanistan presently. My brother was also a Corpsman, during Vietnam. If you think I am not sufficiently grateful to be a woman living in this marvelous modern country, you couldn't be more wrong. Women AND men made it a great country.
I am simply saying he male gender of America does not deserve ALL the credit. Don't make more out of it than that.
Young women know exactly how ugly the culture believes them to be.
What planet does she live on?
We don't think they're ugly, just silly and neurotic.
As someone not normally shaped from head to toe, I'll cry her a river thinking about her hideous nose. I believe there've been studies that show males differ further from the mean in looks and brains both.
Oh yes, my younger brother was a Milwaukee cop for many years just retired last year. Their sacrifices are theirs, I don't take credit for them, but I do understand what makes this country great. It's ALL of us.
Allie, the baby killer,
reading comprehension problems due to lost brain cells from drug use perhaps?
Your sentence is: "We are not " given " this "privilege" any more than men are not given the privilege of living in a safe society, we just do, because we are LUCKY."
It's not a reading comprehension on my part. It's a writing problem on yours. The sentence above, if it means what you are claiming it to mean, is what's known as a cluster fuck.
You do not believe in the sanctity of life if you threaten to use a gun on abortionists and women who have abortions
Problems of violent killers can only be solved by meeting that violence with violence. Since that violence has not been brought to bear and I always act within the law, 50,000,000+ are dead of which you approve.
Are you going to start calling Althouse, "Althouse the baby killer" too Ken? Coward.
I've called her worse, but despite as awful as Ann can be, she isn't the despicable person you are. Only two or three on this site are as low life as you, bottom feeder.
Ken you are fucking nuts. I'm out of here too weird again.
Dante, you are reading something in my statment that is not there ::
Remind me to be more grateful for not being mutilated and subject to honor killing, 'cause ya know we really really need to be soooo grateful.
Sorry, I can't read it any other way.
Allie and Ken,
Get a room, you two!
Dante, in this modern country, where civilized people live, women must feel grateful that we are not subject to mutilation and honor killing? So I am wrong to think that this safety is not a part of living in a modern society? I must make a special show of being grateful to men for protecting women from this, in this country? Women did nothing to protect themselves from such a fate in this country?
Women didn't serve in any wars, didn't die in any wars, made no sacrifices to make this country great, should be grateful to not be treated as Muslim women? Women must remember to show humility and gratitude to their benefactors, the almighty male.
Is Jessica Valentini is right, is this a misogynistic country, or do some of them simply frequent Althouse?
Kirk, that is too creepy for words.
Dante,
While I (for the reasons noted above) think it is dumb for women to claim women have it hard in this country, I don't get why they should be grateful they aren't being mutilated.
Grateful to who? Me, for not mutilating them? I'm reminded of Chris Rock's routine about people wanting credit for stuff like "taking care of their kids" or "not going to jail". What do you want, a cookie? You're not SUPPOSED to mutilate women!
Grateful to men for protecting them from the people who want to mutilate them? Well, um... we don't. Mostly because the people who want to do that live ten thousand miles away. Aside from the occasional cop who arrests a domestic nutcase, American women live in safety not because men protect them from misogynistic men but because the misogynistic men don't live here in the first place.
That being said, any American who isn't a complete asshole should be thankful for being born here (or being allowed to move here). All things considered, the alternatives are worse. :)
Allie,
Creepy, eh? Just how do you suppose the rest of us feel watching you and Ken sparring right in front of us??? :-)
I've been living in Europe for seven years now, and the sexism and racism here is much more severe than anything you see in the States. The things that pass under the radar here, if they happened in the States cities would burn.
I hate it when beautiful people rail against things like plastic surgery, which will make other people more beautiful.
They are just like the people who move to a beach community and then want to shut down building permits so no one else can move there.
"I'm in the club! No more joiners! You shouldn't want to join anyway. You should be happy with what you've got, like I am!"
I know a lot of beautiful people with amazing personalities and great achievement.
A person who doesn't develop a personality because she finds herself too beautiful to need one is flawed. Our culture doesn't tell her that's ok. Our culture- our country- does make it pretty possible for women (and men!) to develop themselves however they want, for good or ill. That's pretty fantastic.
Money quote: "In a lot of ways I’m glad I was considered unattractive as a kid ... I found feminism."
Allie: Is Jessica Valentini is right, is this a misogynistic country, or do some of them simply frequent Althouse?
Riiight. Because reminding you that you owe your freedom to the white european males and judeo-christian law that you rail against ... that's misogynistic.
Rev: I don't get why they should be grateful they aren't being mutilated.
I think you're responding to Allie's strawman instead of what Dante actually said.
I hear him saying that women shouldn't take it for granted, not that they need to run around expressing false sarcastic gratitude (as Allie does here)
Kirk, do you think I should remain silent when Ken calls me a baby killer? Do you think it's unseemly for a woman to defend herself?
I think it's a bit creepy for you to have made the comment about a room, almost as if you think men should be abusive to women behind closed doors, not a mention that it's wrong to be abusive.
Fen, I usually won't give you the time of day, but point out the comment in which I rail against white European men and Judeo Christian law.
AllieOop,
Unfortunately the only useful response when attacked like that is to tell them to fuck off and never ever engage them again.
Ignoring it hurts them more than any response you can compose. Not enough, mind you, but more.
MayBee said...
I know a lot of beautiful people with amazing personalities and great achievement.
A person who doesn't develop a personality because she finds herself too beautiful to need one is flawed. Our culture doesn't tell her that's ok. Our culture- our country- does make it pretty possible for women (and men!) to develop themselves however they want, for good or ill. That's pretty fantastic.
You know what makes a not so beautiful woman beautiful?
A smile.
Not a -I'm doing this to be polite smile-, but a sincere smile,
A warm smile.
And nice tits.
There is something deeply disturbing about the attitude of some male commenters here that are outraged that I didn't show enough gratitude to THEM or men in general for living in in modern country in which women are not mutilated and subject to honor killing.
Revenant seemed to grasp the concept. You're not supposed to kill your fellow human, or mutilate them, you should'nt expect special gratitude for doing what s right.
Or maybe you are little boys who do just want a cookie for not pulling the wings off of the butterfly.
Pogo, you are correct again, point taken.
"Or maybe you are little boys who do just want a cookie for not pulling the wings off of the butterfly."
Or maybe we just point out the ridiculousness of small women who contort history so they can justify not crediting men.
"We derive our freedoms from Who? From what?"
We deserve our freedoms inherently, but we didn't get them that way. That you can't credit those who advanced freedom because they're men is all about you.
How many times must I repeat myself? This country, her greatness and her freedoms were advanced by BOTH men and women.
I'm done here, seriously this country is not fucked up the way Jessica Valenti says, but some of you male commenters are.
AllieOop #1 said...
It was the founding Mothers that contributed to the success of this country back then and modern day women who have contributed to the greatness of this country since.
AllieOop #2 said...
How many times must I repeat myself? This country, her greatness and her freedoms were advanced by BOTH men and women.
You should introduce yourselves.
Contribute, when ones says contribute it generally means another person was also working to the same goal, can you not understand that I give men that credit?
If I meant that only women made this country what it is, the word CONTRIBUTE would not be in use. Really how hard is that to understand? It's almost as IF you feel the need to twist my words to fit your meaning.
You see me as two different people because your misogynist brain can't come to grips with the truth of my meaning, that I've been stating all along and you willfully ignore.
garage mahal said...
As if single women are less worthy than married women in your mind. And as if ALL married women vote Republican. What an asshole.
Oh look, the intellectually disabled boob attacked things I never said!
I'm a stunned by this development.
And for his next trick, he linked to poll results which over sampled Democrats in greater numbers than they voted according to 2008 exit polls.
I am really, really stunned by that development.
What will the boob do next?
"AllieOop #1 said...
We do not NEED to be grateful to men to live in a modern civilized country in which we are equal citizens under the law."
Allie #2 said...
can you not understand that I give men that credit?"
I understand you tried not to until you realized how ridiculous that made you, and rather than admit your error you call those pointing it out misogynist and little boys. And if you think its reasonable to say we don't need to credit men generally - which could be a reasonable stand alone opinion - note your other comments crediting women generally.
The only way to conclude you don't apply different standards to men and women is to ignore half your comments. I'm not misognynist, nor do I think your misandrist. You simply accept the leftist belief that because some men somewhere have or had the ability to oppress women the appropriate response is to denigrate men in return. Deprogram yourself.
Oy Marshal, I never ONCE gave women credit ALONE, I always stated that is was BOTH sexes that made this country great, take OFF your blinders.
I have denigrated no man here, that is once again in your own mind and you are attempting to project that onto me, won't work.
Allie, be grateful or not.
I tried to give you an example of things you might find offensive as a counterpoint, in hopes you might understand why your sarcasm is so offensive (at least to me).
Frankly, I think you have more in you than your superficial display of self-righteous indignation. Which I'm pretty sure you learned somewhere, as some kind of meme (or thought virus if you will).
These antagonist displays are not beneficial to anyone, and actually makes you a pawn to people whose actual agenda you might not agree with. I'll go further, in that from my perspective, these antagonistic positions are quite damaging, and are leading to a destruction of the very society that allows you to behave with such arrogance.
Revenant: While I (for the reasons noted above) think it is dumb for women to claim women have it hard in this country, I don't get why they should be grateful they aren't being mutilated.
I didn't say she should be grateful, only that I found her sarcasm offensive. Should I be grateful the Huns aren't butchering me and raping my wife? Perhaps not, but I'm not going to say "Oh, I'm soooooo grateful of the freedoms provided by the sacrifices of my ancestors."
In any event, I AM grateful. Allie can be grateful or not, take for granted or not the freedoms of this country. But by the same freedom, I feel compelled to point out I find it incredibly offensive to take such things for granted, and furthermore to spit on them as if they were dross. Further, I think a lot of this taking things for granted is causing a lot of ruin in this country.
I don't actually blame Allie, as I think about it. She's merely acting out the character created for her by others.
Dante, do you not realize that what you just said is offensive? You think I cannot think and use reason....because... Why?
Do you ever really speak and listen to women, or are you accustomed to speaking at them?
Amazing that there are still men who feel women do not think for themselves, no not one teeny tiny bit misogynistic.
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