National Front vice-president Florian Philippot said the party could not accept "such an odious comparison."Idiots. Use the "more speech" solution or you are helping her make her point.
I'm sure she doesn't mind the publicity. Go ahead, make me a free-speech martyr.
Idiots.
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45 comments:
Oh, yes, let's see...
The "National Front" is the natural inheritor of the Nazi Party, national socialism, and all that...
And they shall sue Madonna for appropriating their symbol, so dear to their hearts.
And then claim "odiousness". Just like Hitler claimed that he had no interest in Poland at the start of 1939. Just like Hitler claimed that that he had no interest in invading Weestward the next year. And on and on and on...
I can make the same point by asking people to imagine a scarlet hammer and sickle tattooed on Madonna's forehead: just as ludicrous, and it would offend the "right" people and cheer the sinister people.
It's all pixel-anger
Madge needs a good lawsuit to get her name up there, although I don't think this is it.
God, An Original A-hole said...
Oh, yes, let's see...
The "National Front" is the natural inheritor of the Nazi Party, national socialism, and all that...
No, that's the current Administration in this country.
PS French law, what little I know of it, is strange.
They can tell you what you can name your baby.
They are idiots.
Madonna, the former wife of one of America's dumbest communist actors, is trapped inside the vortex of Godwin's Law.
I recorded a song against Marine's father when I was last there, but the truth is, she and Madonna are idiots.
edutcher,
French law, what little I know of it, is strange.
My wife is still walking free over there, after what she did, so you've got that right,...
Are young girls even still interested in Madonna's erstwhile message of "fuck you, America?"
Sometimes litigation is a forum for "more speech".
The article doesn't say whether the cause of action is defamation or some more nebulous "hate" offense.
If it's the latter, which is likely, that would be more troubling from a free speech standpoint and, for the National Front, more hypocritical -- unless pointing out that heretofore double standard is part of the political argument that the NF is making with their "more speech" litigation.
Le Pen is less mighty than the scorn.
Madonna's IQ is frequently reported to be 140 (same as Hillary Clinton's).
Is Madonna an idiot or is she someone who understands the idiocy of others and knows how to use it?
Madonna's IQ is frequently reported to be 140 (same as Hillary Clinton's).
I believe William Shockley's was up there too. If not he certainly did more for the likes of Althouse.
Idiots, sure, but I don't think freedom of speech or the "more speech" idea have nearly the same resonance on the Continent as they have here in the US.
Just because AllieOop calls somebody a genius doesn't make it so in my book. They can still fuck up the people skills.
"Madonna's IQ is frequently reported to be 140 (same as Hillary Clinton's)"
So the rule is if someone has a high IQ, they by definition can not do something stupid? And calling someone who does something stupid an idiot is really just a case of us not being smart enough to understand the subtly and intelligence behind what we mistakenly think of stupidity? Explains the current administration.
RE: jeff:
So the rule is if someone has a high IQ, they by definition can not do something stupid?
No, that would be silly, but what's Madonna done here that's stupid? Front National are basically Nazis. Sure, they're somewhat less Nazi under Marine Le Pen than they were under her father, but they're still basically ultra-nationalistic socialists.
It may take a high IQ to go so far with such little vocal talent.
IQ is only the capacity to learn.
In the Hildabeast's case, there are some serious flaws.
Ann,
Is Madonna an idiot or is she someone who understands the idiocy of others and knows how to use it?
She tried to convince politicians to put Kabbalah water in nuclear reactors - she's an idiot.
The problem is, in this nonjudgmental culture, we don't call out the mentally ill, criminal minded, or anyone else, on what's wrong with them. That's a huge issue when we're talking about people with influence, like a Madonna or Jerry Sandusky. Instead, people do what you're doing - twisting their own minds into pretzels to make the narrative work - and that doesn't work.
Let reality be. Don't make excuses for Madonna - let her truly rise or fall on her own merits. Screen "Truth Or Dare" again and see her for what she is:
An evil, crazy, bitch.
Even if she was "someone who understands the idiocy of others and knows how to use it," having the lack of compassion necessary to be that would still identify her as an idiot.
Or would you applaud her taking advantage of some retarded kids simply because was smarter than they were?
We're supposed to be human beings,...
Go ahead, make me a free-speech martyr
Does France have free speech? Are their laws on free speech the same as the US?
Balfegor,
Front National are basically Nazis. Sure, they're somewhat less Nazi under Marine Le Pen than they were under her father, but they're still basically ultra-nationalistic socialists.
Yes and no. Socialists, of course - they're silly Frenchmen. The Nazi thing is trickier, deserving of more nuance, considering the cultural situation they've have put themselves in. (I'm not against nationalism as much as you seem to be - I'm a proud AMERICAN - but the fact the French only see whites as deserving of the title, not blacks and arabs born there, is extremely dangerous and troubling.)
I'm not arguing with you, just saying - like the discussion of gays here - there's a lot more that could and should be discussed,...
There was a video.
"Help me Iggy... Help me iggy.. I'm trapped inside the vortex of Godwin's law."
AllenS,
Does France have free speech? Are their laws on free speech the same as the US?
No - none of Yurp does - not even England. Which can be good and bad:
Good: They'll all shut down cults in a heartbeat, or make every effort to do so, because they dealt with cultism during WWII and they're sick of it. We haven't got that smart yet, for some reason, still claiming organized deception is a free speech issue.
Bad: You can be thrown in jail or prison for all kinds of shit. Racial speech or what have you. I was telling my French God son just this week, that I have little interest in travel right now, for how it is likely to cramp my style. I've always been outspoken, but what I'm outspoken ABOUT has changed, and leaving the U.S. would be a great invitation for trouble, because I'd offend Yurp's sensitivities so quick they'd never know what hit them. What am I saying?
I'm going to upset the applecart wherever I go after all I've seen lately,...
@Crack Did I applaud her? I'm positing that she's smart, and it's insufficiently perceptive to call her stupid. She's in show business -- YOUR business, btw -- and she has been utterly successful. Who has been more successful over a long period of time? Is there some genius behind her, doing this for her? She aligns herself with various talented people, but she keeps changing who they are. It must be her. That she's leveraging the stupidity of others (some of the time) is just another aspect of genius in promoting herself.
"Idiots, sure, but I don't think freedom of speech or the "more speech" idea have nearly the same resonance on the Continent as they have here in the US."
It's a philosophical idea that can be contemplated by anyone, anywhere.
Even if it's not in the law, it's a principle that can affect what people do. I think LePen should think about it.
"I was telling my French God son just this week, that I have little interest in travel right now, for how it is likely to cramp my style. I've always been outspoken, but what I'm outspoken ABOUT has changed, and leaving the U.S. would be a great invitation for trouble, because I'd offend Yurp's sensitivities so quick they'd never know what hit them."
I feel that way too. I like to stay in the United States, where freedom of speech is a long-treasured right. It's not always fully appreciated, but I at least feel quite free to push it, and I know that there is a deep well of tradition, and that can be tapped.
Ann,
I've got to go to my Sunday coffee date with the guys - I just got the call and it's my only social event - but I'll answer you as soon as I get back.
Why don't you post on my shit today? It's all about you,...
She tried to convince politicians to put Kabbalah water in nuclear reactors - she's an idiot.
It just goes to show that sometimes some of the smartest people can also at the same time be the biggest idiots as well. Or fall for some really crazy shit.
They don't have "Free Speech" in France - ask Brigid Bardot. And no the "National Front" are NOT Nazi's. I get tired of this hysterical inflation of the language. Or is "Nazi" now like "Fascist" an all-purpose insult used by the left that means nothing?
Aren't there some people in this country that call people who belong to the Tea Party, Nazis? Using the term "Nazi" seems to me to be a convenent way to put people down that you don't like.
Remember Buckley's fight with Gore Vidal. Vidal called Buckley a crypto-Nazi. Buckley got mad and called Vidal a faggot and threatened to punch him out. Paul Newman who witnessed the exchange voiced the liberal opinion when he said that Buckley was in the wrong. According to Newman, Vidal's criticism of Buckley was political, but Buckley's criticism of Vidal was personal. Newman view was the measured, decent opinion of all mankind......That's the way it goes. I don't know much about LePen, but, on the face of it, the slur seems vile. But that won't be the issue. The issue will be LePen's response which will be judged inappropriate and wrong.
Ann Althouse said to Crack: Did I applaud her? I'm positing that she's smart, and it's insufficiently perceptive to call her stupid. She's in show business -- YOUR business, btw -- and she has been utterly successful.
Madonna's into titillation just like the Kardashians who also seem to do well in what passes for show business. If you admire her business acumen, or her words and life experiences, or if it's something else, why not put your finger on it? Be clear and sincere.
Allan S wrote:
Aren't there some people in this country that call people who belong to the Tea Party, Nazis? Using the term "Nazi" seems to me to be a convenent way to put people down that you don't like.
As Jonah Goldberg asked:
I often like to ask college kids, except for the murder, bigotry, and genocide, what is it exactly about Nazism that you don’t like? And they can’t name anything. But, conservatives can come up with all sorts of stuff. They were socialists. They wanted free health care. They hated Christianity. They hated tradition. They were statists at the end of the day. All of those things are inherent to fascism and what was anathema to fascism was the idea that you can have, what the scholars of totalitarian theory call “islands of separateness” — that churches can go their own way, that corporations can operate without coordinating with the state, that individuals can have free consciences, that there can be free debate, free and open discussion.
In short, Nazi is just a code word for things they don't like, not based on what Nazis/facists/socialists actually stand for.
"Why don't you post on my shit today? It's all about you,..."
It's not all about me. It's at least half about Romney and the Mormons.
And the notion that I'm taking your topics... I've been writing on my topics since 2004. Go back and read my archive. It's only 29,339 posts long.
Manliness goes way back for me as does alternative medicine. Like you, I have a tragedy in my family because of homeopathy. And I've been teaching Religion and the Constitution since September 2001. I come about my subjects by my own path and haven't stolen them from you.
You squawk about my squawking about you lifting my photos without giving me credit, but you claim credit for whole topics, as if your interest in them gives you a right to be credited when other people talk about them. Do you realize how weird that is? I mean, it's like a cult or something.
Hillary Clinton is smart because her parents were smart. Her parents were so smart, that they named her after a famous mountain climber that climbed a mountain after she was born.
Not only is Hillary smart, but she's fast too. She's so fast that enemy snipers are unable to shoot her dashing across an airport tarmac.
Evidently, Hillary actually thought that evil right wing people were making up stories about Bill, a cigar, and an intern.
Irregardless, I'll bet that Paris Hilton is smarter.
My "masculinity" tag goes back to March 2004, the third month of this blog:
"Candidate Machismo Watch. This is the first entry in a projected series that will concentrate on the ways the Presidential candidates attempt to gain advantage by portraying themselves as more masculine than the other guy. There are two way to do this: by calling attention to one's own masculinity and by calling attention to one's opponent's lack of masculinity. The background assumption, which is offensive, is that the more masculine person should be elected."
Remember when Hillary told the story about trying to join the Marines? You know why people lie? It's because they're just not that smart.
Ann,
@Crack Did I applaud her?
It could be read that way. And previous posts indicate you've admired her.
I'm positing that she's smart, and it's insufficiently perceptive to call her stupid. She's in show business -- YOUR business, btw -- and she has been utterly successful.
We are interpreting "successful" in different ways. I say you're successful (and smart) when you can accurately reflect the world around you; you're claiming dominance in a given field is all that's necessary. That means snake-oil salesmen, and other NewAge hucksters, are smart - until they get caught or wind up dead. Then what do you call it? I call it manipulation and/or imagery.
Who has been more successful over a long period of time?
Please. I give no more credence to Madonna's Grrrl Power rise than I did the "you're a man" condemnation and stumble that put me where I am. She got big because feminists wanted her there - just as they wanted someone like me to fall. That's not talent - it's manipulation, and her body of work is reflective of that. Madonna is a cultural icon of the feminist era, but - without that to prop her up - her music doesn't have legs, her acting (after being married to Sean Penn) is atrocious, and her directing of films (after being married to Guy Ritchie) has been laughable. She's a joke, and one with a punch line that's long overdue.
Is there some genius behind her, doing this for her?
Hey, feminism - an extension of the NewAge "goddess" idea - is a form of evil genius, and it's got LOTS of adherents from all walks of life; especially in the field of music. It definitely takes *something* to make people not stop and think about what they're doing and saying as they destroy everything around them - including those they claim to love (Oh, you'll show them!) but I wouldn't ever stoop to admiring it.
She aligns herself with various talented people, but she keeps changing who they are. It must be her. That she's leveraging the stupidity of others (some of the time) is just another aspect of genius in promoting herself.
Which can all be summed up by the phrase, "Show me your tits!" Big whoop. That's cheap, but even cheaper when asserting some position in art. (Hitler was using the same devious instincts as well - as an artist - got any kind words for him?)
I heard Sigourney Weaver on NPR spouting that same nonsense last weak - women are "strong" because "they're manipulating some guy to help them." Sorry but that's not strength to me - and it goes totally against the feminist claim that putting women in charge would make for a better world.
I know what I want, and want to see, in this life and more of that, most certainly, ain't it.
AllenS,
Using the term "Nazi" seems to me to be a convenent way to put people down that you don't like.
True, but it does have a meaning, and too many today - including Madonna - exemplify it.
Ann,
"Why don't you post on my shit today? It's all about you,…" It's not all about me. It's at least half about Romney and the Mormons.
Fine - take out the word "all."
And the notion that I'm taking your topics... I've been writing on my topics since 2004. Go back and read my archive. It's only 29,339 posts long. Manliness goes way back for me as does alternative medicine. Like you, I have a tragedy in my family because of homeopathy. And I've been teaching Religion and the Constitution since September 2001. I come about my subjects by my own path and haven't stolen them from you.
Did I say "stolen"? No. And where do your homeopathy posts begin? And were you always swearing like a truck driver? You originally dinged me on that, and race, but came around - why should I not think I might have *something* to do with it?
Your reluctance to admit when you're wrong leaves a LOT open for interpretation - that's on you, not me. I've begged, screamed, and asked for you to be more open, but this defensive posture is how you want it, so don't blame me for misinterpretation - that's how you want it.
You squawk about my squawking about you lifting my photos without giving me credit, but you claim credit for whole topics, as if your interest in them gives you a right to be credited when other people talk about them. Do you realize how weird that is? I mean, it's like a cult or something.
Will you stop with that? The cult-critic-starting-a-cult attack is weak. And it's ugly coming from someone who had "a tragedy in my family because of homeopathy,..." You should know better.
And, BTW, I don't just have an "interest" - many of your readers claim it's an obsession - just as everyone with a real investment in it is claimed to have:
Tony Ortega is a very nice man who edits the Village Voice and who, for as long as I can remember, has sent an almost daily email blast about the scandals and dirty dealings that surround the Church of Scientology. Up until Katie Holmes left Tom Cruise, Tony seemed merely like a man with a slightly troubling obsession. Now, he seems like a man who has lucked into a great story.
Yeah - "lucked into a great story" my ass. We cult critics ARE onto a great story - a great story you and Glenn are covering up with cries of "bigotry." (Why no defense of Tom Cruise, Ann?) And is it just a coincidence the article is called "How Tom Cruise is to Scientology what Mitt Romney is to Mormonism"? There's not a single point in that article I haven't made, but are you going to "help a nigga out" and say that?
Cont'd.
Andrew Sullivan recently asked who else should take on the Mormon thing - after making the same points I have - but you didn't answer that YOUR OWN READER is waaay ahead of him (And not crazy, to boot,…) did you? You've lit into him before, but not for me? Even after I said, when you were (really) under attack during the Scott Walker mess, I'd jump in my truck and come sit watch over you?
If you ask me, some true honesty about the blogosphere - which your blogging buddy, Glenn, used to do - would straighten out who-got-where first. But I don't think any of you big shots want that, because how superficial what else is being peddled will become known. This political race isn't "socialist vs. capitalist" unless you buy what the parties are selling. And buying their crap is NOT what the citizens of this country are supposed to be doing - or you as a blogger. You're supposed to be illuminating what's going on - but you can't/won't/don't do that because you (and Glenn) are stuck in the fucking weeds. We have two EXTREMELY FLAWED candidates and neither you or Glenn has any interest in setting them back on their heels and helping the people of this country understand why.
"The background assumption, which is offensive, is that the more masculine person should be elected."
That - all by itself - is unhelpful bullshit.
Yes - this country needs a "real man" instead of two hucksters - and now more than ever.
Chickelit,
So who did I call a genius here?
RE: Althouse:
It's a philosophical idea that can be contemplated by anyone, anywhere.
Even if it's not in the law, it's a principle that can affect what people do. I think LePen should think about it.
Sure. But LePen really is a bit of a Nazi, and she's in a country where peoples' baseline respect for "freedom of speech" is generally rather lower than it is here in the US. Even if she thought about it, I'm pretty sure she'd come to the same conclusion. Beyond her philosophy, she's a nationalistic French politician. Americans criticizing her for standing up to a superannuated Anglicised American tramp is all win, particularly in view of where her supporters and potential supporters are located (not in Paris).
Re: Crack
I have nothing against nationalism/patriotism. But the Front National is not like the other groups that are habitually called Nazi (which are often free-market and thus obviously antithetical to Nazism anyhow). FN was actually founded by Vichy collaborators. That influence is, as I said, weaker under Marine Le Pen than under Jean-Marie Le Pen -- they're much more like a normal party, and other Rightist parties (e.g. the Freedom Party in Austria) have been more willing to form alliances with them as a result. But the taint still lingers.
AllieOop said...
Chickelit,
So who did I call a genius here?
Elsewhere, Allie. Elsewhere.
Balfegor,
FN was actually founded by Vichy collaborators.
I did not know that - very interesting.
I'ma look into it - and thanks.
To CrackEmcee
The Front National was not founded by Vichy collaborators. It was founded in 1972 by Jean-Marie LePen, himself a "poujadiste", or member of a movement named after Pierre Poujade, politician and tradesunion leader, dedicated to the protection of the rights of tradespeople and artisans.
The FN is nationalistic and populist but definitely not nazi. Its aim is the protection of traditional French (Vieille France) values, not the cup of tea of liberals. That is why it is labeled as "far right".
Élise Bonnette
"Andrew Sullivan recently asked who else should take on the Mormon thing - after making the same points I have - but you didn't answer that YOUR OWN READER is waaay ahead of him (And not crazy, to boot,…) did you? You've lit into him before, but not for me? Even after I said, when you were (really) under attack during the Scott Walker mess, I'd jump in my truck and come sit watch over you?"
You're assuming I read Sullivan, but I haven't checked in over there in over a month. But anyway I don't like this anti-Mormon stuff. I criticized AS for it years ago, maybe in the 2008 primary campaign. I'm tolerant about religion, unlike you.
Thanks for the offer to protect me though!
And I have promoted you (and I went out of my way to get your blog undeleted when I had access to Google execs when I had a problem).
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